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Trader Joe
11-13-2010, 09:53 PM
Great game for Danny and Roy.

I want to see a more aggressive Collison, he's too passive on both D and O.

Dun is a yo-yo or a chucker whatever you want to call it. He bothers me greatly, I don't like watching him play.

Good win. At least we're hanging around .500 so far. That's an improvement I guess.

pacers101
11-13-2010, 09:55 PM
If the regular season was only 8 games long we would be in the playoffs!

Chuck Chillout
11-13-2010, 09:55 PM
TJ Ford played really well again. He's been better than Collison so far.

Trader Joe
11-13-2010, 09:55 PM
IMO Collison is getting yanked right now because his D is leaving a lot to be desired, and he's not aggressive enough on offense to make up for it consistently.

Psycho T
11-13-2010, 10:00 PM
Any more news on the severity of Tylers sprained ankle? I assume it isnt bad because he continued to play after it happened. I was thinking it probably started swelling in the locker room at halftime and so they sat him down.

Sookie
11-13-2010, 10:00 PM
Danny played well, Dun hit some shots at the end.

TJ had a decent game, he has his "typical TJ" moments..but he played pretty good for TJ.

I wish Darren would be more aggressive, but to make up for it, he actually played better defense tonight.

oh, and I like Posey more than Troy right now. But if he starts averaging more than 20 minutes a game, that could change.

ndcoltsnpacers
11-13-2010, 10:00 PM
So how many of these next 10 (Atl, LAC, Orl, @Mia, Cle, OKC, @LAL, @Sac, @Utah, @Pho) are we gonna win? Tough, tough stretch there.

Sookie
11-13-2010, 10:02 PM
At best five and at worst zero

Trader Joe
11-13-2010, 10:02 PM
Any more news on the severity of Tylers sprained ankle? I assume it isnt bad because he continued to play after it happened. I was thinking it probably started swelling in the locker room at halftime and so they sat him down.

He only played for like a minute or two after it happened. I'm guessing off of adrenaline.

BringJackBack
11-13-2010, 10:03 PM
We are 1000x more competitive w/o Troy Murphy, Earl Watson, injured Danny, and bad chemistry. I'm very happy that Danny has been playing great defense and been a rocal leader for us this year. Watch the behing the scenes stuff in timeouts and you'll notice.

Roy Hibbert is going to be amazing for us in the future. Danny Granger played very well tonight, and quite frankly I was afraid to say this but he played well last game too. People were just getting on him because he didn't have 30 and all that.

I agree about Collison. He needs to have one of them real breakout games. I'm talking 25 and 15. I don't think that will happen in this system, so w/e he will probably have to do 25 and 7 or something. I want to see him closing out games.

Dun is a chucker but as long as he is hitting I am not going to complain. His defense was nothing to complain about tonight.

I am falling in love with this James Posey. He is quitting camping at the three point line, rebounding much better, playing solid defense, and playing with hustle. Not to mention his best attribute, leadership. No matter how downhill his game may go from here on out, I'll always have a place in my heart for James Posey as a Pacer. Let's just hope he doesn't start playing like he did at the beginning of the season again.


We play the Hawks next that are vastly more talented than the Cavs but don't have the greatest chemistry as a team. We are at home, but their athleticism will hurt us. Especially with Josh really struggling, Tyler probably out, and Paul George riding the pine. We usually could match them athletically but I don't think so w/ those guys not playing.

Let's go 4-3 and start to get a cushion.

kester99
11-13-2010, 10:04 PM
So how many of these next 10 (Atl, LAC, Orl, @Mia, Cle, OKC, @LAL, @Sac, @Utah, @Pho) are we gonna win? Tough, tough stretch there.

If we win more than one of the next four, I'll be very happy and shocked. Three of the next 10 would be as much or more than we could expect.

cdash
11-13-2010, 10:04 PM
So how many of these next 10 (Atl, LAC, Orl, @Mia, Cle, OKC, @LAL, @Sac, @Utah, @Pho) are we gonna win? Tough, tough stretch there.

It is a tough stretch. I think we have a decent shot of winning the Atl, LAC, Cle, Sac, Pho games. The rest will be pretty tough. If we get out of that stretch a .500 team, that would be a major coup for us. I think it's more likely that we win 3 of the games though. Hope I'm wrong.

Trader Joe
11-13-2010, 10:07 PM
In that stretch we must beat the teams we can beat. That means, LAC, Sac, Cle, and Phoenix. That's 4 teams that IMO we can beat. If we do that all we have to do is win one game we shouldn't to come out at .500 for that stretch. Also need to start protecting our home court.

tysmitty21
11-13-2010, 10:07 PM
TJ Ford played really well again. He's been better than Collison so far.

Collison is averaging 16 points a game. How has Ford been better?

I think it will take some time for DC to get used to the system. It's taken Ford 3 years, and he still looks lost some nights.

I just think whoever the starting point guard is... regardless of who it is... O'Brien ends up benching him late in the game. It's just his thing.

We gotta remember this is Collison's SECOND year in the NBA. He's gonna be a darn good one my friends.

xBulletproof
11-13-2010, 10:08 PM
Ford had 3 blocks .... WTF?

PacerPenguins
11-13-2010, 10:09 PM
So how many of these next 10 (Atl, LAC, Orl, @Mia, Cle, OKC, @LAL, @Sac, @Utah, @Pho) are we gonna win? Tough, tough stretch there.

i say we could win 5 or 6

kester99
11-13-2010, 10:09 PM
Collison is averaging 16 points a game. How has Ford been better?


Defensively.

BringJackBack
11-13-2010, 10:10 PM
Ford had 3 blocks .... WTF?

I guess they counted strips as blocks tonight. He had a lot of strips. I was impressed with his defense even though I can't wait until we turn the page on TJ for as a Pacer asap.

PacerPenguins
11-13-2010, 10:10 PM
If we win more than one of the next four, I'll be very happy and shocked. Three of the next 10 would be as much or more than we could expect.

:lynchmob:

AesopRockOn
11-13-2010, 10:12 PM
A really strong first half, especially first quarter for the Cavs. They were moving the ball well and got high percentage shots; Hickson and Jamison were both very good.

Then came the second half and they just didn't have it. It would have been difficult to lose to them. Without Varejao and Mo, I think they dropped to about 39% shooting by the end.

Roy had a strong game both in the post and shooting 20 footers. Powe gave him some problems on the block but Roy dominated a poor front court like he should have.

Danny was as strong as he's been this season, taking the ball to the bucket against a team that lost their only two good perimeter defenders over the off-season. He also shot very well, squaring up and leaning into every jumper.

Collison and TJ shared minutes at point with good reason. They played similar games. Sessions and Harris (who?) are not much of a point guard rotation and our guys took them to the hole on offense and kept them from penetrating on defense. I am worried about Collison getting assists, not necessarily for purposes of stat padding but because I think it genuinely brought him confidence last year (feeling like he could play with CP3). The offense seems designed to give assists to passers hitting players on the move rather than spotting up. We'll see.

McRoberts has struggled. Sometimes his activity is productive and sometimes it isn't. Tyler's got a sprained ankle; hope he's just day to day. Solomon Jones should not be in the NBA. I don't say this as someone who hates him; I say this as someone objectively observing his basketball skill set against a team with no inside presence. It's not irritating as much as it is humilating.

There was a lot of hate towards Dun in the game thread. Some of it was deserved. The guy has little to do with us winning if he isn't hitting long jumpers. His D is too below average and he hasn't attempted to bring an inside-out element to his game.

Brandon on the other hand looks like he wants it. He's going to be a mild-strong force on the defensive end. He's going to hit 40% of his threes. He's also been going for offensive boards; had a nice put back dunk late in the game.

Some of Mike's minutes need to go to Rush and George. We didn't draft the kid 10th overall to have him collect DNP-CD's.

I still think this Cleveland team is a sub-30 win team and will challenge for worst in the East. That said, a solid win, a great point total for our only potential All Star, and solid effort from the supporting cast. Good game.

smj887
11-13-2010, 10:13 PM
So how many of these next 10 (Atl, LAC, Orl, @Mia, Cle, OKC, @LAL, @Sac, @Utah, @Pho) are we gonna win? Tough, tough stretch there.

I'll be optimistic and guess 4-6. I think we should beat LAC, Cleveland, Sacramento and one of Utah or Phoenix (Phoenix is .500 and Utah has had some breaks lately, albeit against tough teams). But, in true recent-Pacers fashion, they'll probably drop one or two of the games they should win and end up beating a team like Miami or the Lakers.

MyFavMartin
11-13-2010, 10:13 PM
The next Cleveland and Utah's are seconds of back-to-backs.

We're the second of back to backs for the Clippers and Phoenix.

Dr. Awesome
11-13-2010, 10:14 PM
How has Collison been bad defensively? I thought he was always known for his defense.

Sookie
11-13-2010, 10:16 PM
How has Collison been bad defensively? I thought he was always known for his defense.

He's been pathetic defensively.

He lets guys drive right past him. He loses his man when he doesn't have the ball. Taller guys shoot right over him (not his fault.)

He ball hawks too much, meaning..yes he gets steals..and he's fast and athletic, so people think he's good at defense, but really truly..he's not. At least right now.

I thought he was better tonight though. But it's not like Sessions is going to score a ton on anyone anyways.

tysmitty21
11-13-2010, 10:18 PM
Defensively.

If Ford has been better defensively than Collison, it hasn't been by much. I've been impressed with TJ as a backup.. even though it IS his contract year.

But I still think Collison needs to be playing 32 minutes a night.

O'Brien needs to use him better with more pick and rolls. The guy averaged over 9 assists in the last 3 months of last year's season. Yet is struggling to get 4 assists a game with us. Still scoring well, however, at 16 a game.

Mackey_Rose
11-13-2010, 10:19 PM
How has Collison been bad defensively? I thought he was always known for his defense.

He has not been able to stay in front of anybody. It really is disappointing.

MyFavMartin
11-13-2010, 10:20 PM
Collison doesn't stay in front of his guy all the time (he gets picked easily) and takes too many chances at steals, putting himself out of position, leading to opponents rumbling down the lane and our big guys rotating to help and easy dishes for easy hoops. Also, he's looking for the pick and his man simply sees he's not paying attention or hedging the screen and takes off the other way.

Collison could really get into the lane more on offense and wreak havoc on other teams. I'd like to see him more selfish in this way. Make the other team rotate to cover him and pad his assists column.

kester99
11-13-2010, 10:21 PM
Oh! I mentioned in one of the recent threads that I wished Danny would take it to the hoop more often, so I have to say Darn Fine Job, Danny!

----------

I think Collison will get better both on defense and running this offense. He's a good scorer right now.

Justin Tyme
11-13-2010, 10:23 PM
oh, and I like Posey more than Troy right now. But if he starts averaging more than 20 minutes a game, that could change.


Yep, he took a couple of charges right in a row. I don't recall ever seeing Murphy take a charge. His "D" looks stellar compared to Murphy's too.

AesopRockOn
11-13-2010, 10:23 PM
He has not been able to stay in front of anybody. It really is disappointing.

What scares me the most about Collison on D this season is the last few possessions of a close game. I don't think he has the ability to lock down a defender when it really comes down to it. Danny can, Brandon can, Roy well enough, Jo****yler/Posey maybe. Unless we see a drastic improvement from DC, TJ should be playing D on that last possession. I don't know if it's disappointing but it's certainly surprising and quite distressing.

MyFavMartin
11-13-2010, 10:24 PM
Oh! I mentioned in one of the recent threads that I wished Danny would take it to the hoop more often, so I have to say Darn Fine Job, Danny!

Danny was impressive.

Roy's getting pushed off his spot in the low post and getting bodied under. Any thing for him to do in these situations? I also noticed tonight that Cleveland came at him with the double team and he had problems with it. Would like to see our guys rotate to open spots for easy passes and open shots.

MyFavMartin
11-13-2010, 10:25 PM
Yep, he took a couple of charges right in a row. I don't recall ever seeing Murphy take a charge. His "D" looks stellar compared to Murphy's too.

James had some good veteran saviness tonight and looks as strong as a bull. Tyler might learn a thing or two yet from him.

Justin Tyme
11-13-2010, 10:26 PM
Let's go 4-3 and start to get a cushion.

HUH??? :confused: :confused:

Speed
11-13-2010, 10:28 PM
If Ford has been better defensively than Collison, it hasn't been by much. I've been impressed with TJ as a backup.. even though it IS his contract year.

But I still think Collison needs to be playing 32 minutes a night.

O'Brien needs to use him better with more pick and rolls. The guy averaged over 9 assists in the last 3 months of last year's season. Yet is struggling to get 4 assists a game with us. Still scoring well, however, at 16 a game.

TJ has been tons better against the pnr, tons. DC has really struggled there.

Justin Tyme
11-13-2010, 10:29 PM
Ford had 3 blocks .... WTF?

Solo had 2 rebs!!!!

Mackey_Rose
11-13-2010, 10:30 PM
I'm glad they were able to win after giving that game away last night. The Rockets and Bucks games are home games that we should have won, and they will probably come back to bite us in the *** in the spring. It's good to get that winning feeling back. We got three tough home games coming up, I'd be happy if we were able to go 2-1 next week.

Granger played much better, and that makes all the difference. When he doesn't settle for contested jump shots repeatedly, he is a very good player.

BringJackBack
11-13-2010, 10:32 PM
HUH??? :confused: :confused:

Lets make our record to be 5-4 and start to pull away and get above .500.

and LOL.. I didn't look at our next 10 games.. I doubt we'll get a cushion.


Oh yeah, guys, I forgot to say something... We're not consistent so I wouldn't be suprised if we lose to the Clippers on Thursday and then end up beating the Suns on the road or something.. It's all about our young team's consistency.

xBulletproof
11-13-2010, 10:32 PM
Solo had 2 rebs!!!!

I don't know which one is crazier!

BlueNGold
11-13-2010, 10:33 PM
I have an apology to make. Sorry James Posey.

I lumped in James Posey with Solomon Jones as players who should be nailed to the bench. James went 0-4 in 21 minutes and committed 4 fouls...but he still managed to play a good game. How can that be? Savvy play that made it more difficult for the other team to operate. Is this just a "hot streak" for him? IDK, but I've seen much better basketball out of him the last couple games.

On a lighter note, Troy Murphy has continued his dominance at NJ. Here is Jersey's record with and without Troy:

NJ with Troy: 0-4
NJ without Troy: 3-1

...and the trend continues...;<)

kester99
11-13-2010, 10:33 PM
Psssssst. We're 4-4 now.

Justin Tyme
11-13-2010, 10:33 PM
Harris (who?)


IIRC, Big 10 Michigan player.

Day-V
11-13-2010, 10:39 PM
So um, yeah. The Pacers won.


Go Pacers.

MyFavMartin
11-13-2010, 10:40 PM
Solo had 2 rebs!!!!

:buddies:

Infinite MAN_force
11-13-2010, 10:40 PM
On a lighter note, Troy Murphy has continued his dominance at NJ. Here is Jersey's record with and without Troy:

NJ with Troy: 0-4
NJ without Troy: 3-1

...and the trend continues...;<)


Yes. We gave up Troy Murphy and got Darren Collison. I remember at the time thinking, oh... surely we also gave up a #1 pick as well... nope. Hilarious. :laugh:

tysmitty21
11-13-2010, 10:40 PM
I think Pacers take 2 of 3 at home this week to get to 6-5. Staying around .500 after this 10 game stretch is the key. This team should be 6-2 right now, or 5-3 at the worst. Those 2 tough home losses are really going to suck to think about all year long.

I remember the Pacers beating up on the Hawks at Conseco either last year or the year before.. hope they can do it again.

PacerPenguins
11-13-2010, 10:41 PM
anyone else watching the bucks game?

MyFavMartin
11-13-2010, 10:42 PM
If we can beat Denver by 31 and Denver beat the Lakers...

YOUR INDIANA PACERS
http://financialhighway.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/nba-championship-trophy.jpg

Justin Tyme
11-13-2010, 10:42 PM
I have been noticing of late McBob is whining constantly about calls on him. Has it always been that way and I never noticed it? Whatever, he just needs to bite his tongue and play the game.

Unclebuck
11-13-2010, 10:45 PM
The question I have is: Why isn't Collison's defense better? I thought he was supposed to be a good defender? He certainly has the quickness to be a good defender - so why isn't he better

and no blaming O'Brien isn't the answer I'm looking for, so pick something else

Day-V
11-13-2010, 10:45 PM
I have been noticing of late McBob is whining constantly about calls on him. Has it always been that way and I never noticed it? Whatever, he just needs to bite his tongue and play the game.

Well, he did go to Duke. He must still not be used to having fouls called on him. ;)

pacer4ever
11-13-2010, 10:45 PM
I have been noticing of late McBob is whining constantly about calls on him. Has it always been that way and I never noticed it? Whatever, he just needs to bite his tongue and play the game.

it has always been that way but with the new rules u notice because more techs are being called

Unclebuck
11-13-2010, 10:48 PM
I have an apology to make. Sorry James Posey.

I lumped in James Posey with Solomon Jones as players who should be nailed to the bench. James went 0-4 in 21 minutes and committed 4 fouls...but he still managed to play a good game. How can that be? Savvy play that made it more difficult for the other team to operate. Is this just a "hot streak" for him? IDK, but I've seen much better basketball out of him the last couple games.



Slick was very complimentary of Posey tonight and that isn't the first time he has been

BlueNGold
11-13-2010, 10:49 PM
Regardless of our record, I see a more competitive team that is growing into one capable of pulling out difficult wins against decent teams. This is huge.

I remember saying the other day that the second Sixer's game would tell us a lot about the Pacers. I think we flunked that first test. The next test is coming up. In fact, I think the Hawks and Clippers are both going to be important tests. The Hawks game is a measuring stick for the Pacers. The Clippers game is going to be about resilience. Both should be competitive...which is all I ask for at this stage.

BringJackBack
11-13-2010, 10:50 PM
The question I have is: Why isn't Collison's defense better? I thought he was supposed to be a good defender? He certainly has the quickness to be a good defender - so why isn't he better

and no blaming O'Brien isn't the answer, I'm looking for, so pick something else

Darren's main problem is he ball gawks and he defends soft on the pick n' rolls. Very soft on picks. He will never fight one because it will eat him alive and when he goes under he gets very lost. It's an experience thing.

When he pressures on the ball he is good. He's not Rondo or Gary Payton, but its nice. With plenty of room to improve.

He also defends very well with gambling and picking off post entry passes. I haven't really seen anyone jump in the air mid pass right in front of someone to pick the ball as much as Darren Collison does.

BringJackBack
11-13-2010, 10:51 PM
Slick was very complimentary of Posey tonight and that isn't the first time he has been

Do you sync the radio broadcast and watch the game?

Day-V
11-13-2010, 10:54 PM
I wonder if Posey is finally in game shape. He looked like his feet were made of concrete in the preseason. In the past few games, he's looked much more lively and active on the floor. That's just my opinion, anyway.

Unclebuck
11-13-2010, 10:57 PM
Do you sync the radio broadcast and watch the game?

No, I was in my car for a good part of the game tonight. most of the first three quarters

BringJackBack
11-13-2010, 10:59 PM
No, I was in my car for a good part of the game tonight. most of the first three quarters

Dang, its especially stinks that they have college football on instead of the replay tonight.

kester99
11-13-2010, 11:01 PM
The question I have is: Why isn't Collison's defense better? I thought he was supposed to be a good defender? He certainly has the quickness to be a good defender - so why isn't he better

and no blaming O'Brien isn't the answer I'm looking for, so pick something else

This is from an old entry at the 8pts,9secs blog, on the 4-team trade this summer. It's quoting Ryan Schwan, of the Hornets 247 blog.

http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.com/page/20/

Defensively is where Collison has his biggest problems. He makes Allen Iverson look fat – and unlike mighty mouse Chris Paul, he’s also not physically strong at all. That leaves him to be exploited terribly in post ups, and because of his lightness, a good screen or series of screens can take him out the picture on defense despite his recovery speed.

I knew I remembered seeing this...just took time to find it. This is about the only negative stuff he said about DC.

Infinite MAN_force
11-13-2010, 11:11 PM
Dang, its especially stinks that they have college football on instead of the replay tonight.

I had to request the Pacers game on one single TV tonight at Buffalo Wild Wings in Broadripple tonight. They only had about 12 TVs on college football. I look forward to when this begins to change, and I think it will happen.

Should have gone to Moe and Johnnies anyway, they always play the pacers game and usually with sound.

BringJackBack
11-13-2010, 11:15 PM
I had to request the Pacers game on one single TV tonight at Buffalo Wild Wings in Broadripple tonight. They only had about 12 TVs on college football. I look forward to when this begins to change, and I think it will happen.

Should have gone to Moe and Johnnies anyway, they always play the pacers game and usually with sound.

That's disguting. Mostly disgusting because no one wants to watch them.

Yeah, I hope and think that buzz will start coming around on this team soon. We are such competitive and we have a young crew that like to be around eachother. We win some games and get into the playoffs two straight seasons and we acquire a very good starter and a very good backup big man. We draft four more players. Then, wait until we get a little fanbase and BOOM. Paul George happens.

Mr_Smith
11-13-2010, 11:24 PM
I had to request the Pacers game on one single TV tonight at Buffalo Wild Wings in Broadripple tonight. They only had about 12 TVs on college football. I look forward to when this begins to change, and I think it will happen.

Should have gone to Moe and Johnnies anyway, they always play the pacers game and usually with sound.

Yea its a damn shame when you have to ask local establishments to turn on the pacers game, but you don't have to say a peep on sundays though.

Wage
11-13-2010, 11:27 PM
Yea its a damn shame when you have to ask local establishments to turn on the pacers game, but you don't have to say a peep on sundays though.

Don't feel too bad, no one in Chicago cares about the Bulls either.

Psycho T
11-13-2010, 11:34 PM
I have been noticing of late McBob is whining constantly about calls on him. Has it always been that way and I never noticed it? Whatever, he just needs to bite his tongue and play the game.

Always.. Even after he threw the guy down to the floor in the last game he said " I didnt do anything ".

Lance George
11-13-2010, 11:41 PM
I sense the McBob love affair around here is dying a slow death. I've been quite disappointed with him.

Infinite MAN_force
11-13-2010, 11:48 PM
I sense the McBob love affair around here is dying a slow death. I've been quite disappointed with him.

I don't know what game's you are watching. I thought Josh had a nice game tonight after a somewhat disappointing outing last night. Hes never going to put up big stats either way. I guess people who don't comprehend that will never have much of an opinion of him.

BringJackBack
11-13-2010, 11:51 PM
I sense the McBob love affair around here is dying a slow death. I've been quite disappointed with him.

No, its not. I knew you were going to say something like htis. He isn't playing the minutes he should be and he's playing good ball but we haven't got many fast break opportunities which is where he is strong at. As I've said, if he got 32-33 minutes per game he'd average somewhere 10 and 10 with good energy and good ball movement. That's anything but a love affair.

I hate to be confrontational, but the only reason you are saying this is because you are jealous because Tyler isn't starting. I love Tyler as much as the next guy but he is somewhat inconsistent and on top of that he is injured.

imawhat
11-13-2010, 11:52 PM
Glad we got the win and some leadership from Danny. Danny goes as does his shot selection. Tonight he was great.

Collison's got 2 huge defensive problems right now: 1) He gets caught watching the ball way too much, and 2) He does a poor job of anticipating picks. The picks drive me crazy because he's too fast and good to get caught up. He really needs to sit down with the coaches and learn how to play defense before a pick is set.

Infinite MAN_force
11-13-2010, 11:54 PM
No, its not. I knew you were going to say something like htis. He isn't playing the minutes he should be and he's playing good ball but we haven't got many fast break opportunities which is where he is strong at. As I've said, if he got 32-33 minutes per game he'd average somewhere 10 and 10 with good energy and good ball movement. That's anything but a love affair.

I hate to be confrontational, but the only reason you are saying this is because you are jealous because Tyler isn't starting. I love Tyler as much as the next guy but he is somewhat inconsistent and on top of that he is injured.

Josh playing starter minutes is going to average 10 boards a game. There is something to be said for that, I don't care who you are.

rock747
11-13-2010, 11:57 PM
THAT is how we need Granger to play in order to win games.

cdash
11-13-2010, 11:59 PM
I sense the McBob love affair around here is dying a slow death. I've been quite disappointed with him.

Emphasis on slow. For the record, I agree. I think he has shown us that he is better as a guy who comes in with energy doing nice things in short spurts. Starter's minutes don't suit him imo.

cdash
11-13-2010, 11:59 PM
Josh playing starter minutes is going to average 10 boards a game. There is something to be said for that, I don't care who you are.

So if we look at your posting history, we will see you defending Troy Murphy? After all, he was getting 10+ boards per game...

rock747
11-14-2010, 12:07 AM
I wonder how long Tyler is going to be out... hopefully not long. Pacers need him off the bench.

Infinite MAN_force
11-14-2010, 12:26 AM
So if we look at your posting history, we will see you defending Troy Murphy? After all, he was getting 10+ boards per game...

Don't get me wrong.

Would you dispute that there are clear differences in how Josh vs. Troy plays the game?

Offensive rebounding percentage alone makes this case.

All I'm saying is this, one knock on Josh as a potential starter is that he couldn't carry the rebounding load. Well I feel this notion has been disproved. Would you disagree? As of now, we are a better rebounding team... as a team, then we were with Troy Murphy.

I don't mean to come off as a Josh fanboy or anything.. and I even think Tyler has been on the short change of minutes as of lately... but can one deny Josh's positive contribution to the offense as of late? He had a bad game last night, but I thought he played a solid game tonight. If i'm allowed that opinion?

cdash
11-14-2010, 12:33 AM
Don't get me wrong.

Would you dispute that there are clear differences in how Josh vs. Troy plays the game?

Offensive rebounding percentage alone makes this case.

All I'm saying is this, one knock on Josh as a potential starter is that he couldn't carry the rebounding load. Well I feel this notion has not been disproved. Would you disagree? As of now, we are a better rebounding team... as a team, then we were with Troy Murphy.

I don't mean to come off as a Josh fanboy or anything.. and I even think Tyler has been on the short change of minutes as of lately... but can one deny Josh's positive contribution to the offense as of late? He had a bad game last night, but I thought he played a solid game tonight. If i'm allowed that opinion?

Absolutely. You make good points.

Day-V
11-14-2010, 01:15 AM
While not perfect, the rebounding overall this season looks to be much better, at least when performing the Eye Ball Test. And I think Josh, Hans, and even friggin Dunleavy are the sources behind that.

Just my opinion.

Brad8888
11-14-2010, 02:07 AM
The question I have is: Why isn't Collison's defense better? I thought he was supposed to be a good defender? He certainly has the quickness to be a good defender - so why isn't he better

and no blaming O'Brien isn't the answer I'm looking for, so pick something else

Immaturity. He isn't ready to commit to team defense the way O'Brien wants him to. O'Brien already said so at the start of the year, and that hasn't changed to date.

Collison should be backing up Price so we can develop for the future. That is not the way it is going to go, though. Collison will back up Ford soon enough. In another thread I predicted 5 or so more games until TJ starts, and it might not even be that at this rate. Ford is outplaying him, other than scoring.

ndcoltsnpacers
11-14-2010, 02:40 AM
Do you sync the radio broadcast and watch the game?

Does anybody else here do this? The past couple games before tonight the radio had been a couple seconds behind the TV, which is different because the radio usually comes in first. But tonights game was synced perfectly. Anybody else experience this?

vnzla81
11-14-2010, 02:44 AM
The question I have is: Why isn't Collison's defense better? I thought he was supposed to be a good defender? He certainly has the quickness to be a good defender - so why isn't he better

and no blaming O'Brien isn't the answer I'm looking for, so pick something else

This is his second year in the NBA he is still learning how to play D on this level, he is also learning positioning on defense in this team.

I don't know but I don't have an issue if my PG is not that good in D(I wouldn't mind Nash,CP3 or Parker) I would like for the other players in the other positions to be good in D and help the point guard when need it.

Justin Tyme
11-14-2010, 07:53 AM
This is from an old entry at the 8pts,9secs blog, on the 4-team trade this summer. It's quoting Ryan Schwan, of the Hornets 247 blog.

http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.com/page/20/

Defensively is where Collison has his biggest problems. He makes Allen Iverson look fat and unlike mighty mouse Chris Paul, hes also not physically strong at all. That leaves him to be exploited terribly in post ups, and because of his lightness, a good screen or series of screens can take him out the picture on defense despite his recovery speed.

I knew I remembered seeing this...just took time to find it. This is about the only negative stuff he said about DC.


Interesting! Thanx for posting it.

Anyone know where did the thought DC was a great defender came from?

Justin Tyme
11-14-2010, 07:56 AM
Always.. Even after he threw the guy down to the floor in the last game he said " I didnt do anything ".

I noticed that too. He ran over someone in this game, but it was so obvious he couldn't really say much.

Justin Tyme
11-14-2010, 09:00 AM
I wonder how long Tyler is going to be out... hopefully not long. Pacers need him off the bench.


The one spot the Pacers can't afford injuries is with their Bigs. They are short and lacking in quality the way it is now. Hopefully, Tyler will recover quickly.

ballism
11-14-2010, 09:03 AM
So how many of these next 10 (Atl, LAC, Orl, @Mia, Cle, OKC, @LAL, @Sac, @Utah, @Pho) are we gonna win? Tough, tough stretch there.

Ouch,idd. Id say clippers, cleve and sact, but i havent checked which of those are back to backs for us or other teams. Yep, being 4 games under .500 by Christmas would be ok for us.

pianoman
11-14-2010, 09:07 AM
I'm just gonna go out and say it, and take cover:

When Danny plays like he did tonight, he's just as good as any other SF in the league. In our wins this year, Danny looks like a completely different player. It seems like he's more athletic. But when his shot isn't falling, he's just not that impressive.

Justin Tyme
11-14-2010, 09:13 AM
I don't know but I don't have an issue if my PG is not that good in D(I wouldn't mind Nash,CP3 or Parker) I would like for the other players in the other positions to be good in D and help the point guard when need it.


I want a PG that plays "D", a facilitator constantly looking to involve the other players, a pass 1st PG that can score when necessary that can hit the 3 to keep other teams "D" honest. To me "D" starts on the perimeter, and BOTH guards need to be good at playing "D". For years, the Pacers haven't had good perimeter "D", thus allowing opposing players the ability to drive to the basket at will. Stop it on the perimeter so the bigs don't have to guard their man and those constantly driving to the basket.

I was excited about getting DC b/c I was led to believe he was a good "D" PG. I'm not seeing that at all. Hopefully, it's only a youth and inexperience issue that can be corrected.

Chuck Chillout
11-14-2010, 09:39 AM
Collison is averaging 16 points a game. How has Ford been better?

I think it will take some time for DC to get used to the system. It's taken Ford 3 years, and he still looks lost some nights.

I just think whoever the starting point guard is... regardless of who it is... O'Brien ends up benching him late in the game. It's just his thing.

We gotta remember this is Collison's SECOND year in the NBA. He's gonna be a darn good one my friends.

I want Collison to be our solution for the point long-term, and Ford is what he is and will have the same limitations next year and the year after this, I'd guess.

But using Collison's scoring average as a sign he's been better than Ford isn't accurate. Ford has run the team more effectively and just looks more confident in this offense. He's getting about 10 fewer minutes a game, and has been a better closer so far, IMO.

BillS
11-14-2010, 09:42 AM
Collison should be backing up Price so we can develop for the future.

OK, whut? How is Collison, a 2 year player, somehow the guy that should be backing up AJ, a 2 year player, in the name of development?

I mean, I could see making the argument that AJ on the court is more valuable than TJ on the court in terms of development, but how does the starting over DC thing make sense?

Mackey_Rose
11-14-2010, 09:50 AM
I don't know what game's you are watching. I thought Josh had a nice game tonight after a somewhat disappointing outing last night. Hes never going to put up big stats either way. I guess people who don't comprehend that will never have much of an opinion of him.

You have to look at the source. These guys are Tyler fans, not Pacers fans. GrangeRusHibbert even had the nerve to call me a "Josh fanboy" when it coudn't be any more obvious that, that is exactly what he is for Tyler. They bash Josh every chance they get. I don't understand why they can't just root for them both since they are teammates.

They see what they want to see because that furthers their player-centric agenda, rather than the majority of this board who are Pacers fans and take a team-centric perspective.

Mackey_Rose
11-14-2010, 09:54 AM
This is his second year in the NBA he is still learning how to play D on this level, he is also learning positioning on defense in this team.

I don't know but I don't have an issue if my PG is not that good in D(I wouldn't mind Nash,CP3 or Parker) I would like for the other players in the other positions to be good in D and help the point guard when need it.

I think point guard is one of the most important defensive positions on the court, if not the most important. If the point guards have the ball a majority of the time, it really sets the tone if they are being disrupted by solid on-the-ball defense.

Collison has unfortunately not been able to do that so far this season, and it has had a serious negative impact on our team's defense as a whole. When opposing point guards are able to dribble penetrate at will, it really puts a lot of pressure on the rest of our team, especially our bigs.

LokenGaro
11-14-2010, 11:33 AM
Interesting! Thanx for posting it.

Anyone know where did the thought DC was a great defender came from?

Collison was a stud defender at UCLA, against college level PGs. And by stud defender I mean the statistically sexy defensive style, lots of steals leading to breaks. He was solid 1 on 1 because of his speed and the fact that he wasn't giving up much if any size in college most night. Now he is smaller/lighter than most people he's going against. And gambling for steals in the NBA is much higher risk than reaching in on San Diego State's PG at mid-court.

xBulletproof
11-14-2010, 11:42 AM
Collison was not that bad on defense last year in New Orleans.

I'm blaming this on O'Brien wanting a lot of pressure on the opposing PG's. The games where Collison has received comments on here about "being better", he didn't pressure the PG to the point where he can't recover. Yet, like last nights game, his minutes suffer when he plays defense that way. I truly don't understand it. I also believe that this is the reason AJ Price isn't playing as well. He can't pressure the way O'Brien wants successfully.

I think it's a bad tactic myself. You're talking about night in, and night out the quickest players in the NBA play PG, and by pressuring them you're going to cause them to have more open lanes to the rim than they normally would. I understand feeling like it will cause more mistakes by the opposing team, but I think it causes more breakdowns of your defense as well.

Me personally, I'd love to see him just ask the PG's to keep the opposing PG's out of the lane. Don't believe that's what's being asked.

skip2mylou
11-14-2010, 11:44 AM
Hi, long-time lurker here from Europe.

Good win! But also a must-win. This Cleveland Team is pretty horrible without AV and Williams(maybe even with them).

Really like our team, except for the PF-Rotation..
I really can't see what is so good about McRoberts?!
He clearly got talent, but he's too raw at the moment...
I would like to see him as the back-up center only, let Posey and Hansbrough handle the PF spot.
His offense, at the moment, is not much better than Fosters. It's always 4on5 out there..He sets good screens(even though, not always legal) and can pass. But that's about it IMO..His shot is horrible. :(
If you look at his stats, you would think he's some kind of defensive-specialist...but...he's not.
His Post-defense is average at best(sometimes horrible), his Help-D is allright, I'll give him that.
Also, I think it doesn't help him that he get's no respect at all from the refs.

Let this guy develop with 10 - 15 minutes a game, but no 30 minutes games from him, please.

I'am also not a big fan of Hansbrough, but I think he's better than McRoberts at the moment.
Absolutely love his hustle(is there any other player in the nba who can match that? wow) and his toughness. His Basketball-skills...not so much.

I know, i will get bashed for this(if someone reads this, lol) but I think Posey is our best option RIGHT NOW. He just knows what to do, and when to do it. Love that. He sould always play as much as he can, IMO.




Sorry for my english!!!

imawhat
11-14-2010, 12:02 PM
I totally disagree with that Hornets analysis of Collison's defense.

Through eight games, I can't recall Collison's being posted up once. That's just bogus. I can count the number of point guards/teams that regularly post up on one finger. We'd want opponents to post him up as it'd take teams away from their regular offense.

Second, getting caught up on screens has everything to do with anticipation and little to do with size. Being strong can help but players like Jarrett Jack had the same problem while Rondo doesn't.

xBulletproof
11-14-2010, 12:22 PM
Through eight games, I can't recall Collison's being posted up once. That's just bogus.

You didn't watch the Nuggets game? Billups posted him up 5 to 10 times. If I had to guess, it would be on the higher end of that number.

Not saying it was highly successful, but it happened.

skip2mylou
11-14-2010, 12:27 PM
Through eight games, I can't recall Collison's being posted up once. That's just bogus. I can count the number of point guards/teams that regularly post up on one finger. We'd want opponents to post him up as it'd take teams away from their regular offense.

.

He got posted up by Billups which always resulted in a score for the nuggets..(could be wrong, going by memory)

Part Timer
11-14-2010, 12:37 PM
I know, i will get bashed for this(if someone reads this, lol) but I think Posey is our best option RIGHT NOW.

You're likely correct about this. Better run for cover!

I think Posey's taken too much grief, but I don't see how you can expect to play him a lot of minutes at PF. Situationally yes, but I think the bulk of those minutes are better served with McRoberts and Hansbrough. Give them time to grow and use Posey as necessary.

CableKC
11-14-2010, 01:15 PM
The question I have is: Why isn't Collison's defense better? I thought he was supposed to be a good defender? He certainly has the quickness to be a good defender - so why isn't he better

and no blaming O'Brien isn't the answer I'm looking for, so pick something else
In regards to PG Defense....one of the skills that we have lacked for a long time has been the lack of pressure that our PGs has been applied to the opposing PG when bringing the ball up the court.

Has that improved with both TJ and DC at the PG position?

CableKC
11-14-2010, 01:18 PM
Anyone know where did the thought DC was a great defender came from?
Maybe because he came from UCLA which has always had a rep for churning out Defensive minded Players? :confused: :shrug:

Sookie
11-14-2010, 01:21 PM
I totally disagree with that Hornets analysis of Collison's defense.

Through eight games, I can't recall Collison's being posted up once. That's just bogus. I can count the number of point guards/teams that regularly post up on one finger. We'd want opponents to post him up as it'd take teams away from their regular offense.

Second, getting caught up on screens has everything to do with anticipation and little to do with size. Being strong can help but players like Jarrett Jack had the same problem while Rondo doesn't.

Billups posted him up about three times. But that was the only one.

Infinite MAN_force
11-14-2010, 01:23 PM
While not perfect, the rebounding overall this season looks to be much better, at least when performing the Eye Ball Test. And I think Josh, Hans, and even friggin Dunleavy are the sources behind that.

Just my opinion.

I think Roy has been a big part of it as well. He has really improved as a rebounder since last season.

vnzla81
11-14-2010, 01:24 PM
I want a PG that plays "D", a facilitator constantly looking to involve the other players, a pass 1st PG that can score when necessary that can hit the 3 to keep other teams "D" honest. To me "D" starts on the perimeter, and BOTH guards need to be good at playing "D". For years, the Pacers haven't had good perimeter "D", thus allowing opposing players the ability to drive to the basket at will. Stop it on the perimeter so the bigs don't have to guard their man and those constantly driving to the basket.

I was excited about getting DC b/c I was led to believe he was a good "D" PG. I'm not seeing that at all. Hopefully, it's only a youth and inexperience issue that can be corrected.


I think point guard is one of the most important defensive positions on the court, if not the most important. If the point guards have the ball a majority of the time, it really sets the tone if they are being disrupted by solid on-the-ball defense.

Collison has unfortunately not been able to do that so far this season, and it has had a serious negative impact on our team's defense as a whole. When opposing point guards are able to dribble penetrate at will, it really puts a lot of pressure on the rest of our team, especially our bigs.

I understand your points, I think my issue is that I been watching point guards that don't really play that much D for a long time and I don't think is that necessary if you have good defenders around him.

Steve Nash is one guy that comes to mind, he is not a good defender but he is able to get away with it because his offense outweight his defense, Phoenix also find ways to cover his defensive liabilities(the coaching staff) the same thing could be said about other point guards(CP3, Parker, Nelson, Mo, Felton,etc) trust me it would be nice to have a defensive machine like Rondo but not everybody can have one(many PD'ers would think he sucks because he doesn't shot well and plays too much D :D).

Not to go back to Jim or Dunleavy, but I think if the Pacers had a better defensive system and a better defender at the 2 position, the DC defensive mistakes could be erase and wouldn't be as big of a problem as it is now.

Sookie
11-14-2010, 01:26 PM
OK, whut? How is Collison, a 2 year player, somehow the guy that should be backing up AJ, a 2 year player, in the name of development?

I mean, I could see making the argument that AJ on the court is more valuable than TJ on the court in terms of development, but how does the starting over DC thing make sense?

Because Price is better in many ways right now (as in, we'll win more games with Price starting than with Collison starting), and both are part of our future.

I can see the argument, obviously. But I'd really just switch Ford and Price. Collison's been bad defensively. But Ford still stalls the offense a lot (to be fair, he didn't do that last night) and is prone to stupid mistakes every game...mistakes that once Price and Collison do them once (with the exception of on the defensive end) they don't do them again. Collison, although he makes his mistakes..I just wouldn't yank him out of the starting spot yet. He hasn't played his way out of it.

BringJackBack
11-14-2010, 01:56 PM
Because Price is better in many ways right now (as in, we'll win more games with Price starting than with Collison starting), and both are part of our future.



Based on?

Sookie
11-14-2010, 02:05 PM
Based on?

Um defensively and he can run the offense more effectively

we can go back and forth on "whose a better shooter, can see the floor better, pass better" ect..and I've said repeatedly, I think they'll be at about the same level, BUT very different players.

however, in this offense, Price is better suited. And you really can't argue about defense. (And we're obviously talking about right now)

Hicks
11-14-2010, 03:02 PM
If the other team wants to try to base their entire offense on posting up their PG, I say let them. No one I'm aware of goes into a season wanting that to be the core of their offensive strategy, so the odds of it working out for them over 48 minutes, so long as our defense isn't horrendous, are probably not in their favor. Especially if we put even a basic level of help defense towards addressing it.