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View Full Version : How many games before TJ is the starting PG?



90'sNBARocked
11-13-2010, 12:41 PM
I see this coming as it has been the case for 3 years in a row now. I think its only a matter of time before Jim yanks the reins from Darren Collison and turns them over to Ford

Collison does not look good in Jim's system ( not sure who does) and Jim wont adapt his system to fit Collison's strengths. A point guard like DC needs the ball in his hands to use his creativity and speed of the dribble. Jim system has the PG give up the ball early in the shot clock

TJ knows Jim's system the best and executes it much better than DC at this point of the season. TJ brought us back from a 10 point deficit and we were up 5, I believe towards the end of the 3rd quarter when TJ picked up his 5th foul. Then DC comes in and the ball movement gets worse, and he ends the night with zero assists.

I do think DC is the better player, but right now it looks painfully obvious that TJ runs the current system better. TJ had 4 assists in limited action last night vs 0 for Collison.

So in summary, I am willing to bet that it will be less than 15 games before TJ is named the starter by Jim O Brien

dlewyus
11-13-2010, 12:51 PM
I just want to be the first to jump in here and say; "Why can't this be put in one of the existing threads?" Not that I really care. Its just that someone always says it, so I thought I'd be the first this time. lol :dance:

dal9
11-13-2010, 01:05 PM
TJ has looked good, and DC not always.

But, DC is going to have to figure it out sooner or later, so I thought it was a good idea to leave him in in the 4th against a weaker team (and pg), even though it didnt work out.

90'sNBARocked
11-13-2010, 01:34 PM
TJ has looked good, and DC not always.

But, DC is going to have to figure it out sooner or later, so I thought it was a good idea to leave him in in the 4th against a weaker team (and pg), even though it didnt work out.

But is it DC or the system?

I dont think its a coincidence that every PG brought in here has had his assists numbers drop for the prior year

dal9
11-13-2010, 01:57 PM
But is it DC or the system?

I dont think its a coincidence that every PG brought in here has had his assists numbers drop for the prior year

i mean its gotta be the system in part, but Ford is playing in the same system, and doing pretty well...that said, the gap isn't so big that I would get mad if DC starts and plays a lot...still, I think TJ deserves burn...

imawhat
11-13-2010, 02:18 PM
I think McRoberts will get yanked before Collison. I give McRoberts less than ten games.

vnzla81
11-13-2010, 02:22 PM
Yep Mcroberts and then Collison, the starting team would be TJ,Dun,Danny,Posey,Hibbert :suicide:

Lance George
11-13-2010, 02:30 PM
i mean its gotta be the system in part, but Ford is playing in the same system, and doing pretty well...that said, the gap isn't so big that I would get mad if DC starts and plays a lot...still, I think TJ deserves burn...

T.J. Ford NBA & ABA Statistics | Basketball-Reference.com (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/fordtj01.html)

Check out T.J.'s assists per-game, assists per-36 and assist percentage numbers. The three lowest totals of his career in all three categories have came during his three seasons here.

Sookie
11-13-2010, 02:40 PM
I don't think TJ has outplayed Darren.

JOB says he understands the system better, but the offense looks better with Darren running it.

TJ defends much better though, so that will be the reasoning when Darren is pulled.

PaceBalls
11-13-2010, 02:42 PM
Yep Mcroberts and then Collison, the starting team would be TJ,Dun,Danny,Posey,Hibbert :suicide:

Actually, it would not suprise me to see Hibbert benched and Posey starting at C with Granger at PF, Dunleavy at SF, DC at SG and TJ at PG.

You know that's what Jim really wants to do. I think the only thing holding him back is Area 55. /slightly green

One thing that is a safe bet is that Posey will be our new... power(?)forward by December. I think I called that out before the preseason even.

spazzxb
11-13-2010, 03:09 PM
T.J. Ford NBA & ABA Statistics | Basketball-Reference.com (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/fordtj01.html)

Check out T.J.'s assists per-game, assists per-36 and assist percentage numbers. The three lowest totals of his career in all three categories have came during his three seasons here.

Individual stats don't mean a thing Unless you worried about fantasy, but then you should find a fake message board. I could care less how many assist a certain player gets as long as we win. Hibbert has had the most assist of any center this year. If all of our players get assist instead of one its not a bad thing.

spazzxb
11-13-2010, 03:21 PM
Actually, it would not suprise me to see Hibbert benched and Posey starting at C with Granger at PF, Dunleavy at SF, DC at SG and TJ at PG.

You know that's what Jim really wants to do. I think the only thing holding him back is Area 55. /slightly green

One thing that is a safe bet is that Posey will be our new... power(?)forward by December. I think I called that out before the preseason even.

green lol haha . There old freaking jokes. Unless its original when haters post post they should be treated as though their level of intelligence corresponds with what they have to say.

Unclebuck
11-13-2010, 03:21 PM
I see this coming as it has been the case for 3 years in a row now. I think its only a matter of time before Jim yanks the reins from Darren Collison and turns them over to Ford



Two years in a row Ford was benched, so why would Jim go back to Ford, that makes no sense.

In fact I see Price replacing TJ as the primary backup before too much longer

BringJackBack
11-13-2010, 03:28 PM
I don't really see how TJ can start over Collison. Jim hasn't shown any sides of showing more love for Ford than Darren lately as Darren has finished the past couple of games for us opposed to earlier of the season when TJ and Darren almost split minutes.

I agree with that Josh probably won't start anymore if we lose this game tonight. It will be either Posey or Tyler.. I love Posey to death when he's not fatigued or misused but he shouldn't be starting. I could care less if Tyler or Josh start as they both are about the same.. Tyler is a little better but there's the whole second unit sucks thing..

If I could make some changes in the starting lineup I would switch Mike and Rush and Josh for Tyler to spice things up. However, raise Josh's minutes to about 23-25 as they are hovering around 20 right now.

PaceBalls
11-13-2010, 03:33 PM
green lol haha . There old freaking jokes. Unless its original when haters post post they should be treated as though their level of intelligence corresponds with what they have to say.

What are you trying to say?

odeez
11-13-2010, 03:33 PM
Yeah, I don't see it happening. If anything I see TJ being moved in some kind of deal around the trade deadline. I look for things to continue as they are for awhile. I do see Mcbob being pulled as the starting PF, he is not a starting PF in the NBA (IMO). I love his hustle, but that's about it. I know he is very popular among Pacers fans, but it's only a matter of time.

I think you stick with DC as the starter. And I agree with UB that Price is going to come into picture at some point this season, he is to good to be third string. That being said TJ has played well this season which is good because it only enhances his value along with his expiring contract.

90'sNBARocked
11-13-2010, 03:38 PM
TJ defends much better though, so that will be the reasoning when Darren is pulled.


I want to agree with you but after last night with DC getting 0 assists and TJ getting 4 in less minutes , unfortunately I think its the other way around

90'sNBARocked
11-13-2010, 03:43 PM
Two years in a row Ford was benched, so why would Jim go back to Ford, that makes no sense.

In fact I see Price replacing TJ as the primary backup before too much longer

Well I think if you look at the games thus far TJ has been the more effective PG

I also think Jim has made it a habit each year to yank people in and out of the starting lineup, as he has done every year

PG's dont seem to flourish in this system, but TJ knows what Jim wants better than DC, so far

90'sNBARocked
11-13-2010, 03:46 PM
[QUOTE=BringJackBack;1096249]I don't really see how TJ can start over Collison. Jim hasn't shown any sides of showing more love for Ford than Darren lately as Darren has finished the past couple of games for us opposed to earlier of the season when TJ and Darren almost split minutes.


I would think normally DC would play 30-35 minutes with the back up playing 10-15 minutes, but so far DC and TJ have basically split the minutes evenly

Sookie
11-13-2010, 03:48 PM
I want to agree with you but after last night with DC getting 0 assists and TJ getting 4 in less minutes , unfortunately I think its the other way around

Assists really don't matter in this system. And in fact, I feel like since Lebron entered the league, and Nash became MVP, they've become a "gold standard" much like points used to be. You can be "selfish" with assists too. For a point guard, yes assists are good. But the bottom line is, how an offense looks when you are running it, and imo..turnovers, matter much more.

TJ flat out stalls the offense. He dribbles the ball to much, and there's no ball movement when he's on the floor. Occassionally, he's given up the ball..but he doesn't do it often.

So how does he get assists? He dribbles around and passes to someone, typically when he's quite close to turning it over..and those players shoot, and sometimes he gets an assist out of it. That's how TJ plays. He hasn't stopped playing the way he wants to play..JOB's just putting up with it. Either because he has to play TJ for trade value, or he has to play Darren, and he'll take an experienced player who doesn't run the system well over an unexperienced player who does.

odeez
11-13-2010, 03:52 PM
If you look at the numbers of TJ compared with DC. DC has played better and should remain the starter. Yes, TJ is playing less minutes and not all can be told by the numbers. IMO DC is the better choice, not to mention he is only in his second year in the league and his first in JOB's system. I think he is doing just fine, why mess with him? He is going to have some bumps along the way. But I feel strongly that he should remain the starter. He is the future and will most likely be he long after JOB & TJ are gone... at least I hope so!

spazzxb
11-13-2010, 04:00 PM
What are you trying to say?

That the formulated Job comments are about as fresh as a dirty diaper. And that I know people have more intteligence than is being displayed here. I am just sick and tired of people making comments like Posey will be our starting center if JOB has his way. The poster knows that they are just making crap up, there well aware that there is no substance to there post , and for some reason they think its funny the hundreth time posted. I don't know how to handle it but it would be nice to have the stupidity segragated into a few threads, and allow intelligent disscussion to actually be the norm around here. At the very least be funny with ones insults. Do to forum rules nothing can really be done about
ignorance..

vnzla81
11-13-2010, 04:39 PM
If you are too intelligent to post here don't do it, nobody is making you :twocents:

Justin Tyme
11-13-2010, 04:46 PM
But is it DC or the system?

I dont think its a coincidence that every PG brought in here has had his assists numbers drop for the prior year


How can it not be obvious that the common denominator to PG's failing lies at the feet of Jimmy? Geez Bird, you can't be that blind or in love with Jimmy you can't see it. How can you justify allowing it to happen?

Justin Tyme
11-13-2010, 04:49 PM
Yep Mcroberts and then Collison, the starting team would be TJ,Dun,Danny,Posey,Hibbert :suicide:



Wash your mouth with soap for saying that.

1984
11-13-2010, 04:51 PM
Well I think if you look at the games thus far TJ has been the more effective PG

What Pacers team are you guys watching? Ford has been very typical, hot for a moment and making mistakes the next. Collison hasn't been perfect, but he has impressed me. He is obviously young and raw, but it is clear that he is a star in waiting.

Sookie
11-13-2010, 04:53 PM
How can it not be obvious that the common denominator to PG's failing lies at the feet of Jimmy? Geez Bird, you can't be that blind or in love with Jimmy you can't see it. How can you justify allowing it to happen?

To be fair, we keep getting point guards that HAVE to have the ball in their hands in order to be effective.

Curry would look good in this system. Derek Fisher could play this system well. Chancey Billups...there are a few. We just keep trading for the extremely ball dominant PGs.

As I've been saying with Darren though, at least Darren tries. At the end of the day, he's not going to look as good because the offense just doesn't play into his skills as a point guard (plays into his skills as a scorer though) but the kid is trying.

vnzla81
11-13-2010, 04:55 PM
Wash your mouth with soap for saying that.

Don't forget that Foster is coming back get ready to see Roy's minutes going down.

spazzxb
11-13-2010, 04:58 PM
If you are too intelligent to post here don't do it, nobody is making you :twocents:

I never talked about the intellect of the board, simply stating that it is diluted by a lot of repetitive waste. I like humor and even sarcasm, but these people aren't even trying to be creative or offer any value.

Eleazar
11-13-2010, 05:08 PM
To be fair, we keep getting point guards that HAVE to have the ball in their hands in order to be effective.

Curry would look good in this system. Derek Fisher could play this system well. Chancey Billups...there are a few. We just keep trading for the extremely ball dominant PGs.

As I've been saying with Darren though, at least Darren tries. At the end of the day, he's not going to look as good because the offense just doesn't play into his skills as a point guard (plays into his skills as a scorer though) but the kid is trying.

The sad thing is the PG that might be the best at running this system is always dressed in a suit on gameday.

Sookie
11-13-2010, 05:18 PM
The sad thing is the PG that might be the best at running this system is always dressed in a suit on gameday.

It's not a "might"....

It's not Darren's fault either (and to an extent TJ's. I still blame him for his bad decision making), this is like asking Hansbrough to be a finesse player, we're asking a player who..his entire life, has had the ball in his hands most of the time, and who NEEDS to have the ball in his hands in order to be effective to give up the ball.

Now, he's a good scorer, and he has that down in this offense. But in terms of running it....

Also, I'm not bashing JOB here, when it comes to how he's dealing with Darren. He's the coach, and he's got a right to run whatever system he wants. Should it fit the players..yes..but I think you could argue that this system, when run correctly, certainly does fit Granger, Dun, and Josh..and maybe to an extent Hibbert..and Price can run it effectively. The issue is more, we continue to give JOB players that he has to play, that don't fit into his system. Ford doesn't fit, I never watched Tinsley, but from what was said..he didn't fit either.

It's irritating because he has a PG that will run it well. But, the fact that he usually doesn't have a PG that can run it well, means that he's got an offensive structure that fits many of the players on his team, but not his starting point guard. Which I'm sure contributes to the inconsistency and lack of success.

thefeistyone
11-13-2010, 05:26 PM
Two years in a row Ford was benched, so why would Jim go back to Ford, that makes no sense.

In fact I see Price replacing TJ as the primary backup before too much longer

Of course it makes no sense...That is exactly why JOB will do it.

What if JOB went with the George Costanza theory that his first instinct is always wrong. I bet if he would go with the opposite of his instincts we would see a small win streak. :dance:

PaceBalls
11-13-2010, 05:38 PM
That the formulated Job comments are about as fresh as a dirty diaper. And that I know people have more intteligence than is being displayed here. I am just sick and tired of people making comments like Posey will be our starting center if JOB has his way. The poster knows that they are just making crap up, there well aware that there is no substance to there post , and for some reason they think its funny the hundreth time posted. I don't know how to handle it but it would be nice to have the stupidity segragated into a few threads, and allow intelligent disscussion to actually be the norm around here. At the very least be funny with ones insults. Do to forum rules nothing can really be done about
ignorance..

Look man, obviously you didn't find much humor in my post. I thought I made a valid point, if slightly sarcastic. We saw Hibbert not finishing the game last night, we see Posey logging huge minutes as the PF. It is not such a large leap of logic to say that this year could be like last year, or did you forget that Troy Murphy was our starting center for alot of games?

Secondly, you should check out the forum rules yourself about being civil. It seems you do not agree with my assessment or use of sarcasm, but it is certainly no reason for a personal attack, I think you are crossing the line here, not me.

spazzxb
11-13-2010, 06:36 PM
Look man, obviously you didn't find much humor in my post. I thought I made a valid point, if slightly sarcastic. We saw Hibbert not finishing the game last night, we see Posey logging huge minutes as the PF. It is not such a large leap of logic to say that this year could be like last year, or did you forget that Troy Murphy was our starting center for alot of games?

Secondly, you should check out the forum rules yourself about being civil. It seems you do not agree with my assessment or use of sarcasm, but it is certainly no reason for a personal attack, I think you are crossing the line here, not me.

That wasn't directed at you specificly. I used Posey starting at center as a recently posted example of something that Job wouldn't actually ever do. Murphy was at least a real PF, Posey is a SF. What I am really complaining about is the people who take every positive and turn it bad such as the following example.

we read an article about Tyler becoming the first big man off the bench. Currently we are guarenteed someone will chime in with a remark such as I guess that means Tyler is going to the bench hahaha. No other content no humor just words tossed up . Then 5 posters thank them for there "useful" post.

I am against behavior like this and it is running rampant. The biggest point I wanted to make was asking the haters to be creative. I am not even really a fan of JOB, but he should be gone after this season either way so whats the point of obsessing over him.Bird once said that he thinks players tune coaches out after 3 years. If Obrien is here next year You guys can March on the steps of Conseco and I would probably even support you.

PaceBalls
11-13-2010, 06:59 PM
That wasn't directed at you specificly. I used Posey starting at center as a recently posted example of something that Job wouldn't actually ever do. Murphy was at least a real PF, Posey is a SF. What I am really complaining about is the people who take every positive and turn it bad such as the following example.

we read an article about Tyler becoming the first big man off the bench. Currently we are guarenteed someone will chime in with a remark such as I guess that means Tyler is going to the bench hahaha. No other content no humor just words tossed up . Then 5 posters thank them for there "useful" post.

I am against behavior like this and it is running rampant. The biggest point I wanted to make was asking the haters to be creative. I am not even really a fan of JOB, but he should be gone after this season either way so whats the point of obsessing over him.Bird once said that he thinks players tune coaches out after 3 years. If Obrien is here next year You guys can March on the steps of Conseco and I would probably even support you.

Well, you quoted my post, how can I think that was not directed at me? I still say it is not that far of a stretch to think Jim would prefer small ball to playing Roy. If not Posey, then who? You can bet your *** that he would be playing Murphy at Center at least half the game if he was here. I see Posey used by Jim more as one of the bigs so far this season. He maybe a SF on every other team, but in Jim's "system" he is one of the bigs. And one of the bigs means he can play center. If you have no low post presence, no shot blocking guardian of the paint, the center position ceases to exist. It becomes small ball.

You specifically question the intelligence of my post, but yet I have to question the intelligence of someone who is not skeptical of Jim's substitutions and his choice of big men. How much more evidence do you need? Do we need to see another 3 years of small ball tendencies? Do we need another 3 years of letting the opponent dictate what lineups we use instead of forcing them to adjust?

My cynicism is well justified and quite reasonsed out, and my original post just might become validated. The history over the last 3 years leans more in my favor than in yours.

cordobes
11-13-2010, 07:01 PM
Won't happen (and rightly so), but should have gone with him to finish the game yesterday.

spazzxb
11-13-2010, 07:20 PM
Well, you quoted my post, how can I think that was not directed at me? I still say it is not that far of a stretch to think Jim would prefer small ball to playing Roy. If not Posey, then who? You can bet your *** that he would be playing Murphy at Center at least half the game if he was here. I see Posey used by Jim more as one of the bigs so far this season. He maybe a SF on every other team, but in Jim's "system" he is one of the bigs. And one of the bigs means he can play center. If you have no low post presence, no shot blocking guardian of the paint, the center position ceases to exist. It becomes small ball.

You specifically question the intelligence of my post, but yet I have to question the intelligence of someone who is not skeptical of Jim's substitutions and his choice of big men. How much more evidence do you need? Do we need to see another 3 years of small ball tendencies? Do we need another 3 years of letting the opponent dictate what lineups we use instead of forcing them to adjust?

My cynicism is well justified and quite reasonsed out, and my original post just might become validated. The history over the last 3 years leans more in my favor than in yours.


Both Mcroberts and Tyler struggled with Schola, Posey seemed to do a better job against them and then got extremely hot. Why would you take him off the court? The game before Posey had 0 minutes.

Unfortunatly, Big Roy has been having trouble backing guys down in the post. His shot just hasn't been falling as often as we need it to be a main weapon . Hibbert was out of the game because he could not guard Brad miller on the perimeter. He wasn't reliable enough to abuse Miller on offense so his defensive liability took him off the court. Thankfully, Brad is also one of the few consistent long range centers in the league. If Hibbert was putting the ball in the hoop every time he posted Brad up I am sure he would have still been in the game. Roy plays great except when he trys to back someone down in isolation 1 on one .

I see the logic in these decisions and I quoted you because I was inspired:-)

PaceBalls
11-13-2010, 07:32 PM
Both Mcroberts and Tyler struggled with Schola, Posey seemed to do a better job against them and then got extremely hot. Why would you take him off the court? The game before Posey had 0 minutes.

Unfortunatly, Big Roy has been having trouble backing guys down in the post. His shot just hasn't been falling as often as we need it to be a main weapon . Hibbert was out of the game because he could not guard Brad miller on the perimeter. He wasn't reliable enough to abuse Miller on offense so his defensive liability took him off the court. Thankfully, Brad is also one of the few consistent long range centers in the league. If Hibbert was putting the ball in the hoop every time he posted Brad up I am sure he would have still been in the game. Roy plays great except when he trys to back someone down in isolation 1 on one .

I see the logic in these decisions and I quoted you because I was inspired:-)

I call BS on Hibbert not being able to be effective. He wasn't effective because he was not in the game. He is what we needed to close that game out.

You advocating Roy being pulled because he could not handle Brad's perimeter shooting. Why not just put someone else on Brad? Why take away any post and shotblocking presence out of the game? Why should Roy be guarding a perimeter shooter in the first place? Most importantly... why let the oppenent dictate our matchups?

We are talking about Brad freakin' Miller here. Put Danny on him, put any guy 6'7' or taller on him. But for the love of the basketball gods, don't take out Roy because Brad Miller is hitting perimeter shots. Can I get a defensive switch one time?

spazzxb
11-13-2010, 07:40 PM
I call BS on Hibbert not being able to be effective. He wasn't effective because he was not in the game. He is what we needed to close that game out.

You advocating Roy being pulled because he could not handle Brad's perimeter shooting. Why not just put someone else on Brad? Why take away any post and shotblocking presence out of the game? Why should Roy be guarding a perimeter shooter in the first place? Most importantly... why let the oppenent dictate our matchups?

We are talking about Brad freakin' Miller here. Put Danny on him, put any guy 6'7' or taller on him. But for the love of the basketball gods, don't take out Roy because Brad Miller is hitting perimeter shots. Can I get a defensive switch one time?


I wasn't talking about ability, just execution. There have been to many times the guy on tv has to say "you got to make that one big man". I am only refering to the times he takes the ball holds it while everyone clears out then tries to back his guy down (JO style). So far it has not been effective, I certainly hopes that changes. Roy is great when he makes quick decisions and passes.

I don't aurgue that there weren't better options but Miller made 3 threes in a short period of time and the rockets were rerunning that play until we did something about it. I only argue that it wasn't random and there was logic behind the decision.

Brad8888
11-13-2010, 07:42 PM
5 or 6 games, depending if the Pacers pull one out tonight.

My guess is that, for continuity, TJ will be inserted as starter at the same time that Posey is inserted as the starting 4. There is a very difficult stretch of games ahead in terms of overall opposing talent, and O'Brien will see the vets as "giving the team the best chance to win" after the losing streak gets to about 5 or so.

Unfortunately, I also see McRoberts in only limited minutes after that time due to his lack of scoring despite everything else he does well, Rush getting fewer minutes while Dahntay gets more than he has been, and Granger will be spending some time at the 4 as well.

So, Price, Stephenson, and Foster will continue as the inactives, and George will go virtually unused.

cordobes
11-13-2010, 07:52 PM
I call BS on Hibbert not being able to be effective. He wasn't effective because he was not in the game. He is what we needed to close that game out.

You advocating Roy being pulled because he could not handle Brad's perimeter shooting. Why not just put someone else on Brad? Why take away any post and shotblocking presence out of the game? Why should Roy be guarding a perimeter shooter in the first place? Most importantly... why let the oppenent dictate our matchups?

We are talking about Brad freakin' Miller here. Put Danny on him, put any guy 6'7' or taller on him. But for the love of the basketball gods, don't take out Roy because Brad Miller is hitting perimeter shots. Can I get a defensive switch one time?

So, who should Hibbert be guarding?

PaceBalls
11-13-2010, 07:57 PM
So, who should Hibbert be guarding?

League pass unfortunately has the Pacer games blacked out. So I am just going on memory here from watching it on FSN. I think it would be Scola or Chuck Hayes?

I want to see aggressive coaching, not reactionary coaching. If they are playing small ball then that is even more reason for Roy to be in there. More reason for Tyler to be in there.

cordobes
11-13-2010, 08:05 PM
League pass unfortunately has the Pacer games blacked out. So I am just going on memory here from watching it on FSN. I think it would be Scola or Chuck Hayes?

I want to see aggressive coaching, not reactionary coaching. If they are playing small ball then that is even more reason for Roy to be in there. More reason for Tyler to be in there.

No, none of those guys were on the floor. Adelman cleverly went with Battier+Budinger at the 3/4 - those guys would murder Hibbert. That's why I'm surprised to read that Hibbert should be defending someone else. There wasn't anybody on the floor he could guard except Miller. And he wasn't capable of defending Miller.

PaceBalls
11-13-2010, 08:11 PM
No, none of those guys were on the floor. Adelman cleverly went with Battier+Budinger at the 3/4 - those guys would murder Hibbert. That's why I'm surprised to read that Hibbert should be defending someone else. There wasn't anybody on the floor he could guard except Miller. And he wasn't capable of defending Miller.

I wish I had a replay to watch the last 6 minutes or so.
But still, even with that being the case, I still hate the idea of pulling Roy there. If anything he can still defend the paint and intimidate, and on the other end we make them pay for their smallball strategy.

cordobes
11-13-2010, 08:18 PM
I wish I had a replay to watch the last 6 minutes or so.
But still, even with that being the case, I still hate the idea of pulling Roy there. If anything he can still defend the paint and intimidate, and on the other end we make them pay for their smallball strategy.

Kevin Martin entered the game for Scola with 5:07 to go. O'Brien calls a time-out once the Pacers get the ball back (after yet another open jump-shot for Miller) and that's when Hibbert is replaced with McRoberts. You can check a box-score play-by-play.

How would you punish them by the small-ball strategy? Adelman would still defend Hibbert with Miller. Hibbert was losing his individual battle with Miller by a mile. It was costing Indiana the game.

sig
11-13-2010, 08:29 PM
Collison is a young PG who is still learning. He'll have his some bad with good. I would expect that the coach is gone before the PG is benched.

Unclebuck
11-14-2010, 06:55 AM
Don't forget that Foster is coming back get ready to see Roy's minutes going down.

Well Foster is recovering from an ankle injury and yet prior to the injury Foster didn't play at all, so I don't know what makes you think he's going to take minutes from anyone

BlueNGold
11-14-2010, 09:18 AM
TJ will not start again for the Pacers for two reasons.

1) He plays better as a backup.

2) He is being show-cased and we don't want his performance to nose-dive.

Mackey_Rose
11-14-2010, 11:02 AM
Kevin Martin entered the game for Scola with 5:07 to go. O'Brien calls a time-out once the Pacers get the ball back (after yet another open jump-shot for Miller) and that's when Hibbert is replaced with McRoberts. You can check a box-score play-by-play.

How would you punish them by the small-ball strategy? Adelman would still defend Hibbert with Miller. Hibbert was losing his individual battle with Miller by a mile. It was costing Indiana the game.

I saw the same thing you did, and said so in the post game thread of that game. I want Hibbert in there, more often than not, but he was killing us in the Rockets game. I understand not wanting to go small-ball to match-up with the opponent, but when you try to play big against small and it isn't working, it makes sense to go the other way.

90'sNBARocked
11-14-2010, 11:59 AM
http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/quotes_101113.html
Quotes by Jim O'Brien


(On bouncing back from a loss last night): “Our guys have played together for a couple years now. The guys that we have on the court most of the time played together. We had T.J. out there a lot (and he) had some nice runs. James Posey is a veteran. He can fit into any group. The guys that were out there at the end (have) been around each other for a while, so familiarity is a good thing. It allows you to bounce back. Our key guy, Danny Granger, had a terrific, terrific game. (He) showed great leadership


(On who he goes with in the fourth quarter): “I want to go with as much experience (as I can). I think T.J., by far of our point guards, has the most experience at the point guard spot…It will be either Danny, Mike or Brandon. It’s always going to be Danny and it’s either going to be Mike (Dunleavy) or Brandon (Rush). If (the other team) is spacing the court with three point shooters, I need somebody quicker than Roy on the court…(It’s) not necessarily the hot hand, but who’s going to defend and also be able to space the court


Well it seems he is saying TJ is the preferred choice, let the countdown begin

90'sNBARocked
11-14-2010, 12:06 PM
The whole point of this thread was not who is the better PG but , knowing Jim and his tendencies , as proof for the last 3 years

When will TJ be named starter? I think sooner than later, possibly 15 games

Scot Pollard
11-14-2010, 12:08 PM
this is a stupid thread because obrien isnt that stupid to start ford

he much rather start collison

why in the world would someone think obrien will start ford who has been a pacer for a while now who obrien doesnt care for instead of collison a true pg that obrien actually lets play how he wants

collison usually gets a bunch of minutes unless hes struggling and its hurting the team

i mean you dont see keyon dooling starting instead of brandon jennings

same here collison is our young pg who is really a darn good player and ford is just a veteran used to play backup when collison needs to take a rest

Scot Pollard
11-14-2010, 12:09 PM
TJ will not start again for the Pacers for two reasons.

1) He plays better as a backup.

2) He is being show-cased and we don't want his performance to nose-dive.

very well said my friend

90'sNBARocked
11-14-2010, 12:24 PM
this is a stupid thread because obrien isnt that stupid to start ford

he much rather start collison

why in the world would someone think obrien will start ford who has been a pacer for a while now who obrien doesnt care for instead of collison a true pg that obrien actually lets play how he wants

collison usually gets a bunch of minutes unless hes struggling and its hurting the team

i mean you dont see keyon dooling starting instead of brandon jennings

same here collison is our young pg who is really a darn good player and ford is just a veteran used to play backup when collison needs to take a rest

I would put money this will happen

Why he has done it every year he has coached here

Why does TJ get more minutes than the starter?

imawhat
11-14-2010, 01:12 PM
Those O'Brien quotes don't change anything. He said the same thing in the preseason.

I hope Collison shapes up soon. I'll give him about ten more games. By then our whole team will have gone through the conditiong crash that they hit every season. Collison looks like he's going through it right now.

Part Timer
11-14-2010, 01:26 PM
Why does TJ get more minutes than the starter?


He doesn't. Collison is averaging 10 more minutes per game.

http://www.nba.com/pacers/stats/index.html

90'sNBARocked
11-14-2010, 01:32 PM
He doesn't. Collison is averaging 10 more minutes per game.

http://www.nba.com/pacers/stats/index.html

Well I know TJ had more minutes than DC last night and also TJ played until there was only 3 minutes left in the fourth quarter

xBulletproof
11-14-2010, 01:40 PM
Well I know TJ had more minutes than DC last night and also TJ played until there was only 3 minutes left in the fourth quarter

So?

In the Charlotte and Philly games Collison only played 1 more minute than TJ in those back to back games.

Then the next 4 games Collison played over 30 minutes per game, and TJ played 15-18 minutes. Then last night they both played 24 minutes.

You're making something out of nothing.

Part Timer
11-14-2010, 01:43 PM
Well I know TJ had more minutes than DC last night and also TJ played until there was only 3 minutes left in the fourth quarter

Only 40 seconds more last night. Not very significant.

http://www.nba.com/games/20101113/INDCLE/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore

90'sNBARocked
11-14-2010, 02:40 PM
Only 40 seconds more last night. Not very significant.

http://www.nba.com/games/20101113/INDCLE/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore

oh I agree

I just think that when you have a clear cut starting PG, then they usually get between 35-40 minutes per game, and with the fact that a lot of times TJ gets almost as much minutes as DC, I just see jIm at some point flip floping like has always been the case

Hicks
11-14-2010, 03:28 PM
this is a stupid thread

I don't care to see this kind of a statement unless it's the kind of thread where everyone else would nod and agree at the site of it. This isn't that thread.

Scot Pollard
11-15-2010, 10:20 PM
im sorry for making that comment and im sorry 90s nba rocked for pointing you out

poor choice of words

but i guess tj is our new starting pg but for just one game thank goodness

vnzla81
11-15-2010, 10:28 PM
TJ will not start again for the Pacers for two reasons.

1) He plays better as a backup.

2) He is being show-cased and we don't want his performance to nose-dive.

I think somebody is going to be proven wrong tomorrow :-p

90'sNBARocked
11-15-2010, 10:31 PM
im sorry for making that comment and im sorry 90s nba rocked for pointing you out

poor choice of words

but i guess tj is our new starting pg but for just one game thank goodness

No problem , and thanks for the apology

much respect

BlueNGold
11-15-2010, 10:41 PM
I think somebody is going to be proven wrong tomorrow :-p

:blush:

Ok, you got me. I suppose injury could force anything to happen.

Noodle
11-15-2010, 11:22 PM
:blush:

Ok, you got me. I suppose injury could force anything to happen.

There is no need to be embarrassed. When Collison comes back he will have his job back. TJ is forever a 2nd or 3rd option as long as Collison is available. Do not give in to admitting he got you, for he is dead wrong to believe Jim or any coach is that is that foolish.

tysmitty21
11-16-2010, 03:43 AM
Every year, no matter who the starting point guard is, Jim O'Brien tends to use the backup to close out games. I don't know if any point guard alive could please JOB in his system.

Collison is averaging 15 points, 4 assists, and 2 steals a game... and yet lots of Pacers fans act like he's not playing very well. He definitely isn't defending very well, and having a game with 0 assists was quite strange. But Collison is the real deal, and he's going to be an amazing player in this league.

We can't forget it's just his 2nd year. But he's gonna be a real good one.

TJ needs to keep playing well so we can trade him. At that point, Price will get his shot as the backup, and I think he'll do a nice job.

skip2mylou
11-16-2010, 05:27 AM
I think our defense is much better when TJ is on the court.

As much as I don't like the guy, I think we can't deny that he is really helping us this season.

90'sNBARocked
11-16-2010, 11:50 AM
http://www.indystar.com/article/20101116/SPORTS04/11160345/1004/SPORTS/?odyssey=nav|head
By Mike Wells


Pacers T.J. Ford playing well off the bench

T.J. Ford just wanted clarification.

He didn't need to be a starter or be guaranteed a certain number of minutes each game. He just didn't want to bounce in and out of the Indiana Pacers' lineup for the third straight season.

The veteran point guard wanted to know what his role would be this season. The answer came during an offseason phone conversation with coach Jim O'Brien.

"It makes things a lot easier knowing where you stand when you communicate," Ford said. "Once coach and I talked about the role he wanted me to perform, I knew what to expect this season."

Ford, who was trade bait all summer, could make his first start of the season tonight against the Atlanta Hawks at Conseco Fieldhouse. Starter Darren Collison is questionable after injuring his left ankle in practice Monday. Second-year guard A.J. Price will back up Ford if Collison does not play.
"I'm just playing my role," Ford said. "When he (O'Brien) needs me and he calls my name, I'm ready. If he calls it, great. If he doesn't, I'm over there cheering on the guys out there playing."

Ford hasn't been a distraction despite losing his starting job three times and knowing he's not part of the team's long-term plans.
"I have a lot of respect for T.J.," O'Brien said. "He's a man in every sense of the word. He's a good communicator and he's open-minded."

Ford, a starter most of his career, has accepted being Collison's backup and thrived under it. O'Brien has been using the seven-year veteran late in games.
"I want to go with as much experience as possible," O'Brien said. "I think T.J. has the most experience of our point guards. I want to go with him down the stretch."

Ford's statistics are modest -- 5.8 points and 3.5 assists per game -- but he brings stability and knowledge to the position. At the same time, Collison has struggled grasping O'Brien's ball movement offense.

"You can tell he's more comfortable with the system and the guys," swingman Mike Dunleavy said about Ford. "Something just kicked in for him and he understands things a lot better. He's been playing solid basketball for us."

Ford helped the Pacers come from nine points down in the third quarter and eventually take the lead early in the fourth quarter against Houston last week.

The momentum changed when Ford went to the bench with his fifth foul.
"T.J. was a plus-19 (the Pacers outscored Houston by 19 while Ford was on the court) in a game that we lost by three points," O'Brien said. "That was a huge positive for our basketball team. I think T.J. has played extremely well throughout the year. He has defended at a high level."
Ford's play has left Price, who had an impressive preseason, on the inactive list every game this season.

Ford was injured most of the preseason, but he played better than Price during his limited time on the court to earn the backup spot.

"Is he disappointed that he's not starting or didn't start last year? Absolutely," O'Brien said about Ford. "But he also understands the best way to deal with a situation like that is to do the best you can. I think he tries to do the best he can every single day he puts on a Pacers uniform."

I swear Jim O'Brien must be the most difficult coach to get a read on

nerveghost
11-16-2010, 12:28 PM
naturally assists go down for the PG - that is the nature of the system. It is not that it ruins them - it just takes the ball out of their hands. The nature of the system is not dependent on the PG to make plays in the half court - only in the full court, pushing the ball.

In the half-court, the PG's primary responsibility is to initiate the offense. Then they get into a position to either make a scoring move (a cut or come off a screen, for instance) or space the court for a spot-up jumper

However...the nice part of the motion offense is that it can be tweaked to harness the strengths of each player: case in point - you see DC getting to run a lot of pick and rolls in the half court. The problem is that I don't believe either he or the roller have executed well.

someone please correct me if my understanding of the PG's role in JOB's motion offense is wrong.

90'sNBARocked
11-16-2010, 12:48 PM
naturally assists go down for the PG - that is the nature of the system. It is not that it ruins them - it just takes the ball out of their hands. The nature of the system is not dependent on the PG to make plays in the half court - only in the full court, pushing the ball.

In the half-court, the PG's primary responsibility is to initiate the offense. Then they get into a position to either make a scoring move (a cut or come off a screen, for instance) or space the court for a spot-up jumper

However...the nice part of the motion offense is that it can be tweaked to harness the strengths of each player: case in point - you see DC getting to run a lot of pick and rolls in the half court. The problem is that I don't believe either he or the roller have executed well.

someone please correct me if my understanding of the PG's role in JOB's motion offense is wrong.

I think you are spot on in your assesment, but the real question I ask is Do you think JIm is adjusting his game plan at all to maximize DC strengths?

Hicks
11-16-2010, 01:40 PM
Wasn't TJ on the floor whenever Posey was hitting those 5 threes vs HOU? I think that might have something to do with that +19.

90'sNBARocked
11-16-2010, 01:42 PM
Wasn't TJ on the floor whenever Posey was hitting those 5 threes vs HOU? I think that might have something to do with that +19.

No doubt,

I always find that whole +/- thing a little overrated

What I found interesting is , apparently, it took Ford 3 years to "get it"

Is that becasue Jim system is that complex and difficult to execute? or because TJ finally gave in and decided to follow Jims plan?

Sookie
11-16-2010, 01:45 PM
Every year, no matter who the starting point guard is, Jim O'Brien tends to use the backup to close out games. I don't know if any point guard alive could please JOB in his system.

Collison is averaging 15 points, 4 assists, and 2 steals a game... and yet lots of Pacers fans act like he's not playing very well. He definitely isn't defending very well, and having a game with 0 assists was quite strange. But Collison is the real deal, and he's going to be an amazing player in this league.

We can't forget it's just his 2nd year. But he's gonna be a real good one.

TJ needs to keep playing well so we can trade him. At that point, Price will get his shot as the backup, and I think he'll do a nice job.


I know. TJ has outplayed Collison defensively.

But on the offensive end, TJ has been the same old TJ..with the exception of the fact that he's barely prevented his would be turnovers, instead of actually turning it over. He still pounds the heck out of the ball, he still over drives, he still makes bad passes, and makes bad decisions. It's the same TJ.

Darren, may not be comfortable with the offense. But he's at least trying to run it. TJ looks just as uncomfortable when he actually tries to run it too, but most of the time TJ just dribbles the ball around and does what he wants. I actually wonder if JOB's allowing TJ to play his game, as it'll help his trade value.

I've thought the offense has been just as much in Darren's favor as the defense has been in TJ's favor.

and this
"Ford was injured most of the preseason, but he played better than Price during his limited time on the court to earn the backup spot."

Is just funny. We all know he didn't earn it..it was given to him.

edit: plus and minus is a good stat, but it's just like any other stat..it's doesn't mean that much. O'brien seems to only use it when he's trying to back up his point. Remember pointing out Troy Murphy...

TinManJoshua
11-16-2010, 01:46 PM
Thanks to an injury, officially nine games.

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 01:48 PM
No doubt,

I always find that whole +/- thing a little overrated

What I found interesting is , apparently, it took Ford 3 years to "get it"

Is that becasue Jim system is that complex and difficult to execute? or because TJ finally gave in and decided to follow Jims plan?

TJ decided to slow down a bit, not sure if he is doing it due to injury or because he is finally getting it, either way the offense doesn't look good with him on the floor, he is maybe playing better D but we only notice it because DC is not that good on D.

90'sNBARocked
11-16-2010, 01:50 PM
[QUOTE=Sookie;1098192]I know. TJ has outplayed Collison defensively.

But on the offensive end, TJ has been the same old TJ..with the exception of the fact that he's barely prevented his would be turnovers, instead of actually turning it over. He still pounds the heck out of the ball, he still over drives, he still makes bad passes, and makes bad decisions. It's the same TJ.

Although I agree TJ does the things you mentioned (pound the ball, turnovers etc.)

I do think he has doen less of that this year

I agree that Price is a much better jump shooter than TJ, but if your real honest, dont you think at least at this point, TJ runs the offense better than AJ?

BillS
11-16-2010, 01:57 PM
I am someone who has always been very frustrated with TJ's offense, but I have noticed a few things:

1) He plays with his head up more, meaning he can see what is going on rather than previous years where it seemed to be "decide - lower head - move - get stuck"

2) He is often more deliberate and in control - that may translate a bit to "slower", but I think it isn't a matter of foot speed, it is a matter of what he is doing with the ball while he is moving. He isn't dribbling off his leg as much, and seems to keep a better grip on the ball to allow a stronger pass.

These two things were the reasons I used to yell at him when he was on the floor last year, but - though he still gets out of control sometimes - the number of "dammit, TJ!" cries have been significantly reduced.

I prefer Collison, but TJ has not been the Destroyer of Offense that he has been in the past.

IndyProdigy
11-16-2010, 02:01 PM
That wasn't directed at you specificly. I used Posey starting at center as a recently posted example of something that Job wouldn't actually ever do. Murphy was at least a real PF, Posey is a SF. What I am really complaining about is the people who take every positive and turn it bad such as the following example.

we read an article about Tyler becoming the first big man off the bench. Currently we are guarenteed someone will chime in with a remark such as I guess that means Tyler is going to the bench hahaha. No other content no humor just words tossed up . Then 5 posters thank them for there "useful" post.

I am against behavior like this and it is running rampant. The biggest point I wanted to make was asking the haters to be creative. I am not even really a fan of JOB, but he should be gone after this season either way so whats the point of obsessing over him.Bird once said that he thinks players tune coaches out after 3 years. If Obrien is here next year You guys can March on the steps of Conseco and I would probably even support you.

lighten up dude

Sookie
11-16-2010, 02:03 PM
[QUOTE]

Although I agree TJ does the things you mentioned (pound the ball, turnovers etc.)

I do think he has doen less of that this year

I agree that Price is a much better jump shooter than TJ, but if your real honest, dont you think at least at this point, TJ runs the offense better than AJ?

No, and I don't think it's even close. And this position won't change regardless of how either play tonight, because I've seen Price and TJ in this offense a lot.

TJ runs.."TJ dribbles the ball too far into the paint and passes out and hope that the guy he passes too makes the shot" Funny thing is, it's kind of worked to this point. He hasn't turned the ball over too much (that'll change) And the guys he makes his bail out pass to has been making the shot. That doesn't mean he's changed, it just means it's working for now. But, IMO, that's bad offense. And that's not the offense JOB is trying to run.

One of the key parts of this offense is giving up the ball and having the PG play off the ball. TJ doesn't do that. Darren tries to do that, he forgets sometimes, but he at least tries. Learning to play off the ball is hard, and I get that. I think Price has an easier time because Price has played off the ball at times before the pros. But the fact is, no, AJ plays off the ball better. He plays the PnR better. And I'm not afraid he's going to turn the ball over every time he dribbles into the paint.

Some may not believe this, but I wouldn't have a problem with AJ sitting, if he was sitting behind a guy I thought was better than him. I want Darren to play, so taking him out of the lineup for AJ would not be an option, for me personally. In fact, I thought, and still think, that a PG rotation of Collison and Price will be quite fun, and that they bring different styles to the team that'll be good in different situations.

skip2mylou
11-16-2010, 02:05 PM
I think it's kinda weird that he won't attempt a single layup no matter how open he is.
Did somebody told him not to? Or is his confidence in finishing around the basket that low?

Sookie
11-16-2010, 02:05 PM
I am someone who has always been very frustrated with TJ's offense, but I have noticed a few things:

1) He plays with his head up more, meaning he can see what is going on rather than previous years where it seemed to be "decide - lower head - move - get stuck"

2) He is often more deliberate and in control - that may translate a bit to "slower", but I think it isn't a matter of foot speed, it is a matter of what he is doing with the ball while he is moving. He isn't dribbling off his leg as much, and seems to keep a better grip on the ball to allow a stronger pass.

These two things were the reasons I used to yell at him when he was on the floor last year, but - though he still gets out of control sometimes - the number of "dammit, TJ!" cries have been significantly reduced.

I prefer Collison, but TJ has not been the Destroyer of Offense that he has been in the past.

Right, he's been better than last season. But part of that is less minutes. He hasn't killed the offense, he just stalls it a bit (and like I said, he's been catching his "would be turnovers" )

Still, I think the notion that TJ has been better than Collison offensively, or that TJ runs JOB's offense better, is silly.

pacer4ever
11-16-2010, 02:07 PM
[QUOTE=90'sNBARocked;1098201]

No, and I don't think it's even close. And this position won't change regardless of how either play tonight, because I've seen Price and TJ in this offense a lot.

TJ runs.."TJ dribbles the ball too far into the paint and passes out and hope that the guy he passes too makes the shot" Funny thing is, it's kind of worked to this point. He hasn't turned the ball over too much (that'll change) And the guys he makes his bail out pass to has been making the shot. That doesn't mean he's changed, it just means it's working for now. But, IMO, that's bad offense. And that's not the offense JOB is trying to run.

One of the key parts of this offense is giving up the ball and having the PG play off the ball. TJ doesn't do that. Darren tries to do that, he forgets sometimes, but he at least tries. Learning to play off the ball is hard, and I get that. I think Price has an easier time because Price has played off the ball at times before the pros. But the fact is, no, AJ plays off the ball better. He plays the PnR better. And I'm not afraid he's going to turn the ball over every time he dribbles into the paint.

Some may not believe this, but I wouldn't have a problem with AJ sitting, if he was sitting behind a guy I thought was better than him. I want Darren to play, so taking him out of the lineup for AJ would not be an option, for me personally. In fact, I thought, and still think, that a PG rotation of Collison and Price will be quite fun, and that they bring different styles to the team that'll be good in different situations.

yepp and that is why i hate TJ he sucks. He gets into the paint and normaly turns it over. Just watch 2nite if he plays a lot expect a lot of TO.

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 02:14 PM
I think it's kinda weird that he won't attempt a single layup no matter how open he is.
Did somebody told him not to? Or is his confidence in finishing around the basket that low?

He is been injured.

Trophy
11-16-2010, 02:40 PM
yepp and that is why i hate TJ he sucks. He gets into the paint and normaly turns it over. Just watch 2nite if he plays a lot expect a lot of TO.

He makes taking shots much more difficult than it should.

He tries to jump high and fade away in front of a bunch of taller guys.

90'sNBARocked
11-16-2010, 02:55 PM
TJ decided to slow down a bit, not sure if he is doing it due to injury or because he is finally getting it, either way the offense doesn't look good with him on the floor, he is maybe playing better D but we only notice it because DC is not that good on D.

How can you say that when , against Houston for example, he came in with the Pacers down 10 and when he went out they were plus 7

+19 speaks for itself

I am not a fan of TJ, but he has really played pretty well thsi year

90'sNBARocked
11-16-2010, 02:59 PM
[QUOTE=90'sNBARocked;1098201]

No, and I don't think it's even close. And this position won't change regardless of how either play tonight, because I've seen Price and TJ in this offense a lot.

TJ runs.."TJ dribbles the ball too far into the paint and passes out and hope that the guy he passes too makes the shot" Funny thing is, it's kind of worked to this point. He hasn't turned the ball over too much (that'll change) And the guys he makes his bail out pass to has been making the shot. That doesn't mean he's changed, it just means it's working for now. But, IMO, that's bad offense. And that's not the offense JOB is trying to run.

One of the key parts of this offense is giving up the ball and having the PG play off the ball. TJ doesn't do that. Darren tries to do that, he forgets sometimes, but he at least tries. Learning to play off the ball is hard, and I get that. I think Price has an easier time because Price has played off the ball at times before the pros. But the fact is, no, AJ plays off the ball better. He plays the PnR better. And I'm not afraid he's going to turn the ball over every time he dribbles into the paint.

Some may not believe this, but I wouldn't have a problem with AJ sitting, if he was sitting behind a guy I thought was better than him. I want Darren to play, so taking him out of the lineup for AJ would not be an option, for me personally. In fact, I thought, and still think, that a PG rotation of Collison and Price will be quite fun, and that they bring different styles to the team that'll be good in different situations.

So bottom line is you think AJ Price is a significantly better player than TJ Ford is right now?

I strongly disagree, in fact I see AJ as "Ben Gordon lite" to me he can't run an offense at the NBA level the way TJ can

I do love how you stand by your convictions though

90'sNBARocked
11-16-2010, 03:00 PM
Still, I think the notion that TJ has been better than Collison offensively, or that TJ runs JOB's offense better, is silly.


I respect your opinion , but that is just what it is. I dont think you can use any factual evidence aas prof of your statement

pacer4ever
11-16-2010, 03:02 PM
[QUOTE=Sookie;1098206]

So bottom line is you think AJ Price is a significantly better player than TJ Ford is right now?

I strongly disagree, in fact I see AJ as "Ben Gordon lite" to me he can't run an offense at the NBA level the way TJ can

I do love how you stand by your convictions though

AJ is way better and i dont even like AJ much. He is a nice guy but i wasnt high on him till the end of last yr. Anyone who doesnt turn the ball over is better than Ford. Like she said earlier TJ runs TJ offense not pacer offense. He runs the TJ iso all game which :censored: sucks.

90'sNBARocked
11-16-2010, 03:51 PM
AJ is way better and i dont even like AJ much. He is a nice guy but i wasnt high on him till the end of last yr. Anyone who doesnt turn the ball over is better than Ford. Like she said earlier TJ runs TJ offense not pacer offense. He runs the TJ iso all game which :censored: sucks.


I dont see how you could say that at all, but respect your opinion

Since86
11-16-2010, 04:00 PM
[QUOTE]

Although I agree TJ does the things you mentioned (pound the ball, turnovers etc.)

I do think he has doen less of that this year

Except the fact that he's averaging more TOs this year than he did last year......

He averaged 1.91 TOs last season and this season he's at 2.0.

And that's playing less minutes per game. Like I asked in the other thread, is he playing BETTER or is he playing LESS?

He is getting more assists though. His per 36min average last year was 5.4 this season it's 6.66 (uh-uh..) Also his TO per 36 was 2.71 last year compared to 3.8 this year.

90'sNBARocked
11-16-2010, 04:08 PM
[QUOTE=90'sNBARocked;1098201]

Except the fact that he's averaging more TOs this year than he did last year......

He averaged 1.91 TOs last season and this season he's at 2.0.

And that's playing less minutes per game. Like I asked in the other thread, is he playing BETTER or is he playing LESS?

He is getting more assists though. His per 36min average last year was 5.4 this season it's 6.66 (uh-uh..) Also his TO per 36 was 2.71 last year compared to 3.8 this year.

Statistics can be interpretated many ways

I , personally, think TJ is playing much better thsi year and Jim seems to agree (not that it means anything)

also just saw that number Bad omen :(

Since86
11-16-2010, 04:18 PM
I know they can be interpretted many ways, but not when you say that TJ has been taking care of the ball better this season than he did last season.

That's just not a true statement. Turnovers are a kept stat. Playing good defense is not.

If you want to talk about why you think TJ is running the offense better, or why he's playing better defense, than we can do that. But don't say he's not turning the ball over as much this year, compared to last, when it's the other way around.

BillS
11-16-2010, 04:21 PM
Except the fact that he's averaging more TOs this year than he did last year......

He averaged 1.91 TOs last season and this season he's at 2.0.

And that's playing less minutes per game. Like I asked in the other thread, is he playing BETTER or is he playing LESS?

He is getting more assists though. His per 36min average last year was 5.4 this season it's 6.66 (uh-uh..) Also his TO per 36 was 2.71 last year compared to 3.8 this year.

So here's an interesting question:

Which has more of an effect on the floor? The extra percentage points in turnovers or the extra percentage points in assists?

My own perception is that the turnovers are not as self-inflicted this year, they are part of the "more ball movement on offense" that we seem to be seeing this year (or, at least that we see when it is working the way it is supposed to).

The increase in assists would tell me TJ is being more successful at dishing it to the open man than he was last year. The increase in turnovers would seem to go along with an increase in passes overall (in other words, a total increase in passes to shooters as well as passes to set up another pass).

My observations that TJ is not running into the trap and giving up the ball as often support this as well, but that is subjective of course. In other words, in my mind, the turnovers are somewhat expected because they are in the flow of a more turnover-prone offensive style, as opposed to last year when they were taking place out of the flow of the offense and usually unforced or due to a poor decision.

Since86
11-16-2010, 04:46 PM
So here's an interesting question:

Which has more of an effect on the floor? The extra percentage points in turnovers or the extra percentage points in assists?

My own perception is that the turnovers are not as self-inflicted this year, they are part of the "more ball movement on offense" that we seem to be seeing this year (or, at least that we see when it is working the way it is supposed to).

The increase in assists would tell me TJ is being more successful at dishing it to the open man than he was last year. The increase in turnovers would seem to go along with an increase in passes overall (in other words, a total increase in passes to shooters as well as passes to set up another pass).

My observations that TJ is not running into the trap and giving up the ball as often support this as well, but that is subjective of course. In other words, in my mind, the turnovers are somewhat expected because they are in the flow of a more turnover-prone offensive style, as opposed to last year when they were taking place out of the flow of the offense and usually unforced or due to a poor decision.


Good question.

I think his TO's still hurt the team more, because I just don't see him running the offense as better as DC. And to be honest, I'm still not sure I have a total grasp on just what IS the offense.....

To me, TJ dominates the ball way more than DC does. I think TJ just either looks to score, or looks to find someone else to directly score. When I see Darren play, I see him making a pass to a wing, that's not in a scoring position, and then making a cut through or sliding down into another spot, way more often than TJ does.

Darren's TO per 36mins is one whole TO less than TJ's. TJ is averaging more assists per 36, 6.66 compared to 5.02, and when both of them are taken into consideration together, I think it supports my belief that TJ has the ball in his hands way too often.

He just forces things way too much. He's going to try and pentrate to get a shot, look for an open man, and if neither are open a lot of the time he'll continue his drive only to take his fall away jumpshot in the short corner.

I just am totally confused when I see quotes by Jim talking about how TJ runs the offense better because of ball movement, when I see him holding the ball way too long. Combine that with my belief that DC should have the ball in his hands more, more PnRs, but he's the one that doesn't understand the offense as well.

I just chalk it up to Jim putting praise on a vet player, just to praise him, instead of actually praising him for the things he should be praised about....

My real answer is....I don't know. I know I dislike the offense so much that when I start to break down players pros/cons in the system, I get more frustrated at the system rather than trying to figure out which player plays it the best........

90'sNBARocked
11-16-2010, 04:56 PM
I know they can be interpretted many ways, but not when you say that TJ has been taking care of the ball better this season than he did last season.

That's just not a true statement. Turnovers are a kept stat. Playing good defense is not.

If you want to talk about why you think TJ is running the offense better, or why he's playing better defense, than we can do that. But don't say he's not turning the ball over as much this year, compared to last, when it's the other way around.

Yes they can be interpreted.

Example : TJ feeds the post into Roy, the ball bounces off of Roy and goes out of bounds

The statistician makes a decison on who fault the turnover was

Two people could be watching the exact play and one would say it is Roy's fault , the other might say it was TJ

So yes even though the tracking of a statistic like turnovers is a concrete number, it is subjected to speculation

90'sNBARocked
11-16-2010, 05:00 PM
So here's an interesting question:

Which has more of an effect on the floor? The extra percentage points in turnovers or the extra percentage points in assists?

My own perception is that the turnovers are not as self-inflicted this year, they are part of the "more ball movement on offense" that we seem to be seeing this year (or, at least that we see when it is working the way it is supposed to).

The increase in assists would tell me TJ is being more successful at dishing it to the open man than he was last year. The increase in turnovers would seem to go along with an increase in passes overall (in other words, a total increase in passes to shooters as well as passes to set up another pass).

My observations that TJ is not running into the trap and giving up the ball as often support this as well, but that is subjective of course. In other words, in my mind, the turnovers are somewhat expected because they are in the flow of a more turnover-prone offensive style, as opposed to last year when they were taking place out of the flow of the offense and usually unforced or due to a poor decision.

I think that makes good sense, and it furthermore illustrates just how subjective stats can be

Hence the preverbial "What he does good , doesn't show up on the stat line"

We can all go back and forth all day but this is a subjective question, and me personally, I think that TJ looks, plays much better this year than last

BillS
11-16-2010, 05:22 PM
Good question.

I think his TO's still hurt the team more, because I just don't see him running the offense as better as DC. And to be honest, I'm still not sure I have a total grasp on just what IS the offense.....

To me, TJ dominates the ball way more than DC does. I think TJ just either looks to score, or looks to find someone else to directly score. When I see Darren play, I see him making a pass to a wing, that's not in a scoring position, and then making a cut through or sliding down into another spot, way more often than TJ does.

Darren's TO per 36mins is one whole TO less than TJ's. TJ is averaging more assists per 36, 6.66 compared to 5.02, and when both of them are taken into consideration together, I think it supports my belief that TJ has the ball in his hands way too often.

He just forces things way too much. He's going to try and pentrate to get a shot, look for an open man, and if neither are open a lot of the time he'll continue his drive only to take his fall away jumpshot in the short corner.

I just am totally confused when I see quotes by Jim talking about how TJ runs the offense better because of ball movement, when I see him holding the ball way too long. Combine that with my belief that DC should have the ball in his hands more, more PnRs, but he's the one that doesn't understand the offense as well.

I just chalk it up to Jim putting praise on a vet player, just to praise him, instead of actually praising him for the things he should be praised about....

My real answer is....I don't know. I know I dislike the offense so much that when I start to break down players pros/cons in the system, I get more frustrated at the system rather than trying to figure out which player plays it the best........

Thanks for this response, it makes for much thought.

The disconnect for me is that if somehow TJ holds the ball more than DC, it means that TJ is more likely to find someone in scoring position than DC is when he DOES give it up. That's either a flaw DC has to work on (because I don't think there are two different offensive systems) or it isn't a correct interpretation. I go with the latter because I don't notice TJ holding the ball as much as he used to (which, of course, may lead to a flaw in my observation because he still holds the ball more than DC, I agree, I just don't see it to the degree it would have to be for that to be the explanation).

I think we're missing out on the possibility that TJ is actually moving the ball more than DC because perhaps the ball comes back to him, where it doesn't with DC. This could be due to who he is on the floor with (I think DC plays with better passers so they don't have to feed it back to him in order to find another open man).

Tonight will give us a very good idea, because with TJ working with the same unit DC has been, his scoring, assists, and turnovers will be in a situation more comparable to DC.

Since86
11-16-2010, 05:24 PM
Yes they can be interpreted.

Example : TJ feeds the post into Roy, the ball bounces off of Roy and goes out of bounds

The statistician makes a decison on who fault the turnover was

Two people could be watching the exact play and one would say it is Roy's fault , the other might say it was TJ

So yes even though the tracking of a statistic like turnovers is a concrete number, it is subjected to speculation


I recognize that it does happen, I just think that's a lame excuse. If we have to be that precise in order to fairly judge each player, then there's no reason to keep stats, because who should get points when an opposing player accidently tips the ball in?

You're trying to break down the argument to such a small detail that all stats become worthless.

vnzla81
11-16-2010, 05:25 PM
I have a feeling that today the "TJ Ford is a better point guard than last year" debate is going to be solve and the outcome is not going to be positive.

nerveghost
11-16-2010, 05:29 PM
I think you are spot on in your assesment, but the real question I ask is Do you think JIm is adjusting his game plan at all to maximize DC strengths?

Well, what do you think are his strengths? I guess I would list them as:

1. Mid-range jump shot
2. Pick-and-roll
3. Speed
4. Move without the ball
5. Make good decisions

At this point, I think the offense has used those strengths.

I have not seen, to my recollection, with any degree of "strength", the following :

1. Penetrate and dish
2. Three-point

Since I don't see him do 1 or 2 a whole lot, my assessment would be that the offense fits his strengths.

I will say that my biggest complaint from DC has been his defense. He is really struggling to keep quick point guards in front of him, and it is killing our defense effort.

90'sNBARocked
11-16-2010, 05:45 PM
Well, what do you think are his strengths? I guess I would list them as:

1. Mid-range jump shot
2. Pick-and-roll
3. Speed
4. Move without the ball
5. Make good decisions

At this point, I think the offense has used those strengths.

I have not seen, to my recollection, with any degree of "strength", the following :

1. Penetrate and dish
2. Three-point

Since I don't see him do 1 or 2 a whole lot, my assessment would be that the offense fits his strengths.

I will say that my biggest complaint from DC has been his defense. He is really struggling to keep quick point guards in front of him, and it is killing our defense effort.

good points, especially the part about DC's defence

The funny thing is I read the hornets page on realgm and they said the same thing, which suprised me as he is supposed to be so quick

Sookie
11-16-2010, 06:00 PM
[QUOTE=Sookie;1098206]

So bottom line is you think AJ Price is a significantly better player than TJ Ford is right now?

I strongly disagree, in fact I see AJ as "Ben Gordon lite" to me he can't run an offense at the NBA level the way TJ can

I do love how you stand by your convictions though

I think AJ Price is a much better point guard then TJ Ford.

And I'm not even complimenting Price there. Last season, I thought TJ was perhaps the worst starting PG I've ever seen. And I've seen a bench warmer and a freshman shooting guard who could barely run and dribble at the same time try to play point. They didn't do some of the things that TJ Ford does.

Now, to be fair, this is based on last season. I hadn't seen Ford before, but it sure sounds like he was the same in previous years.

I'm not quite sure why you think Price can't run an NBA offense. He runs THIS offense better than any other PG on the roster. And he hasn't had the opportunity to play in any other system. So where is this "Price can't run an NBA offense" thing coming from? Because he does what he's told to do, and shoots? The PGs are used as scorers and played off the ball. So that's what he does, just because he's capable of doing that does not mean that he's not capable of running any other system.

And also, I don't see where you think that Collison has not run the offense better than Ford? Admittedly, Collison is playing with better players, but Collison is also doing what is asked of him, more often. (He gets a little..forgetful sometimes..) And this is even when, we've all seen, that Collison plays better when he plays "his game."

The only thing Ford runs is the Ford ISO. That's not running an offense.

That all being said, I have felt like TJ's been better, but maybe as Since86 keeps saying, it's actually just a result of playing less.

90'sNBARocked
11-16-2010, 06:19 PM
I'm not quite sure why you think Price can't run an NBA offense. He runs THIS offense better than any other PG on the roster. And he hasn't had the opportunity to play in any other system. So where is this "Price can't run an NBA offense" thing coming from? Because he does what he's told to do, and shoots? The PGs are used as scorers and played off the ball. So that's what he does, just because he's capable of doing that does not mean that he's not capable of running any other system.

And also, I don't see where you think that Collison has not run the offense better than Ford? Admittedly, Collison is playing with better players, but Collison is also doing what is asked of him, more often. (He gets a little..forgetful sometimes..) And this is even when, we've all seen, that Collison plays better when he plays "his game."

It is not that I dont think Aj can run an offense, it is just that to me he reminds me of a SG in a PG's body. Now that can be partly becasue of the way Jim wants him to play ( I do remember you saying he was much more of a true PG at UCONN) or my perception

With TJ though you are talking about a PG who has already led multiple teams to the playoffs where he was the starter. Now obviously you can say AJ has not been given the chance, it he mabyee quite capable but with TJ he has proven he can lead a team

The reason I think Jim is not happy with DC is because of the minutes given to TJ. I think with a young PG , whom is supposed to be the franchise PG , he would get the lion share of the minutes(35-40) but he is currently almost splitting the position with TJ. So I think if Jim felt that strong about DC , knowing how he felt for Tj in the past, DC would get the major PG minutes.

pacer4ever
11-16-2010, 06:22 PM
It is not that I dont think Aj can run an offense, it is just that to me he reminds me of a SG in a PG's body. Now that can be partly becasue of the way Jim wants him to play ( I do remember you saying he was much more of a true PG at UCONN) or my perception

With TJ though you are talking about a PG who has already led multiple teams to the playoffs where he was the starter. Now obviously you can say AJ has not been given the chance, it he mabyee quite capable but with TJ he has proven he can lead a team

The reason I think Jim is not happy with DC is because of the minutes given to TJ. I think with a young PG , whom is supposed to be the franchise PG , he would get the lion share of the minutes(35-40) but he is currently almost splitting the position with TJ. So I think if Jim felt that strong about DC , knowing how he felt for Tj in the past, DC would get the major PG minutes.

he was as pure of a pg as u could get at UCONN wasnt flashy but a great pass first pg at the collge level who is winner.

90'sNBARocked
11-16-2010, 06:50 PM
he was as pure of a pg as u could get at UCONN wasnt flashy but a great pass first pg at the collge level who is winner.

Then its Jimmy's fault

"ducking for fear of things being thrown at me"

:)

Sookie
11-16-2010, 07:00 PM
Then its Jimmy's fault

"ducking for fear of things being thrown at me"

:)

Jimmy's not "ruining AJ" he just has the offense he wants to run, and Price is capable of running it. He's an extremely versitile point guard, and played SG in college (and I believe in highschool) when Calhoun needed him too (also played SF a few times...can't say I was ever crazy about that..:laugh:)

90'sNBARocked
11-16-2010, 07:07 PM
Jimmy's not "ruining AJ" he just has the offense he wants to run, and Price is capable of running it. He's an extremely versitile point guard, and played SG in college (and I believe in highschool) when Calhoun needed him too (also played SF a few times...can't say I was ever crazy about that..:laugh:)

Did you get to see the Womens team at UCONN?

I have never ever seen such a outstanding record , what have they won like 90 games in a row or some obscence number?

Sookie
11-16-2010, 07:16 PM
Did you get to see the Womens team at UCONN?

I have never ever seen such a outstanding record , what have they won like 90 games in a row or some obscence number?

Yea, I was a women's fan first. Funny enough, the last two undefeated teams weren't the best Uconn women's team I've seen.

They might lose tonight, and I'll be grumpy. :laugh:

90'sNBARocked
11-17-2010, 12:54 PM
Yea, I was a women's fan first. Funny enough, the last two undefeated teams weren't the best Uconn women's team I've seen.

They might lose tonight, and I'll be grumpy. :laugh:

Boy Boy Boy

talk about too close for comfort

Baylor almost put it on them last night

By the way that was a shot clock violation at the end of the last shot by UConn, and whats up with the Coach at Baylor? What a *&^%$$

She was screaming at people for calling a time out the prior minute beforre the last play, then she is demanding the media explain what a shot clock violation is

I thought she showed little class

Baylor has a good good team though

Sookie
11-17-2010, 01:28 PM
Boy Boy Boy

talk about too close for comfort

Baylor almost put it on them last night

By the way that was a shot clock violation at the end of the last shot by UConn, and whats up with the Coach at Baylor? What a *&^%$$

She was screaming at people for calling a time out the prior minute beforre the last play, then she is demanding the media explain what a shot clock violation is

I thought she showed little class

Baylor has a good good team though

It's okay, she got closer than anyone has (in the past two seasons) to beating Uconn.

We weren't sure what the rule was. I think it probably should have been a shot clock violation, but that would have meant that Kelly Farris would press their PG all the way up the court, and they probably would have made it too about half court. :laugh:

Kelly Farris (who is from Indiana) is proof that stats don't even tell half the story. She was Uconn's second best player for most of the game (until the last four minutes, when our little freshman became the best player on the floor) She's the team's best passer, possibly best ball handler, possibly best defender (between her and Tiffany Hayes, and up until I saw Kelly defend, I thought Tiffany was the best perimeter defender Uconn has ever had) And she's got the highest BBall IQ on the team. Just a fantastic player, and last night she played well but her stats don't show it. (2 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist, 4 steals, 4 fouls.)

90'sNBARocked
11-17-2010, 04:12 PM
It's okay, she got closer than anyone has (in the past two seasons) to beating Uconn.

We weren't sure what the rule was. I think it probably should have been a shot clock violation, but that would have meant that Kelly Farris would press their PG all the way up the court, and they probably would have made it too about half court. :laugh:

Kelly Farris (who is from Indiana) is proof that stats don't even tell half the story. She was Uconn's second best player for most of the game (until the last four minutes, when our little freshman became the best player on the floor) She's the team's best passer, possibly best ball handler, possibly best defender (between her and Tiffany Hayes, and up until I saw Kelly defend, I thought Tiffany was the best perimeter defender Uconn has ever had) And she's got the highest BBall IQ on the team. Just a fantastic player, and last night she played well but her stats don't show it. (2 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist, 4 steals, 4 fouls.)


Who was the guard that had 30 points? She was killing them

and it was stupid of the Baylor coach to use her last time out like that, knowing if it is a miss by the other team and they get the rebound, they will have to sprint upcourt, for a fast shot

She was right about the shot clock violation, but even if it was called directly, I believe they still would have gotten the ball under the UCONN basket

Sookie
11-17-2010, 04:24 PM
Who was the guard that had 30 points? She was killing them

and it was stupid of the Baylor coach to use her last time out like that, knowing if it is a miss by the other team and they get the rebound, they will have to sprint upcourt, for a fast shot

She was right about the shot clock violation, but even if it was called directly, I believe they still would have gotten the ball under the UCONN basket

Odyssey Sims, she was a freshman. Bria Hartley (our freshman) was guarding her....she only had 17, but it sure felt like 30.. :laugh:

Unless you're talking about Uconn's player, that's Maya Moore. She's the best player in WCBB. :D

I think Griner is just a ridiculous player for teams to have to deal with. Average height on most WCBB teams is probably between 5'8-5'9, and Griner's 6'8. One of our freshman said she'd never seen a 6'8 woman before....

90'sNBARocked
11-17-2010, 04:44 PM
Odyssey Sims, she was a freshman. Bria Hartley (our freshman) was guarding her....she only had 17, but it sure felt like 30.. :laugh:

Unless you're talking about Uconn's player, that's Maya Moore. She's the best player in WCBB. :D

I think Griner is just a ridiculous player for teams to have to deal with. Average height on most WCBB teams is probably between 5'8-5'9, and Griner's 6'8. One of our freshman said she'd never seen a 6'8 woman before....

Yep was talking about Maya Moore... yo go girl! I saw better floor general skills with her than TJ :)

Naptown_Seth
11-17-2010, 09:34 PM
The only thing Ford runs is the Ford ISO. That's not running an offense.
So unfortunately true. I don't think he really is even running what JOB wants, or the way he wants it I should say. His ISOs typically serve to get him 1 of 2 things - a fall-away turn jumper about 10 feet out or trapped by the rim looking for anyone to kick it back to.

I've never seen AJ as anything more than a backup PG, but I wanted him as a 2nd round pick 2 years in a row for just that reason. That's cheap price for 15 mpg as a PG off the bench that can handle a 2nd string offense easily without being a one-man scoring machine (if given the chance).




BTW, even I think it's way too early to be talking NCAA ball, men or women. This stuff now means nothing, even the fun big matchups are just for entertainment in my mind. The real stuff doesn't kick in till mid-JAN which is why I typically don't bother scouting before then.

Naptown_Seth
11-17-2010, 09:37 PM
I don't think TJ has outplayed Darren.

JOB says he understands the system better, but the offense looks better with Darren running it.

TJ defends much better though, so that will be the reasoning when Darren is pulled.
This has been really mindblowing. If there was one thing I loved about UCLA DC was his on-ball defense. But often he lets guys blast away from him when they are nowhere near being quicker than him.

I mean Parker is a talented PG, but DC should be able to keep him somewhat in front of him. Instead it was like a pickup game between the two with neither bothering to defend the other very hard.

Sookie
11-17-2010, 09:48 PM
So unfortunately true. I don't think he really is even running what JOB wants, or the way he wants it I should say. His ISOs typically serve to get him 1 of 2 things - a fall-away turn jumper about 10 feet out or trapped by the rim looking for anyone to kick it back to.

I've never seen AJ as anything more than a backup PG, but I wanted him as a 2nd round pick 2 years in a row for just that reason. That's cheap price for 15 mpg as a PG off the bench that can handle a 2nd string offense easily without being a one-man scoring machine (if given the chance).




BTW, even I think it's way too early to be talking NCAA ball, men or women. This stuff now means nothing, even the fun big matchups are just for entertainment in my mind. The real stuff doesn't kick in till mid-JAN which is why I typically don't bother scouting before then.


For me, I think Price is capable of being a "good starter" People get scared off because he's not ridiculously athletic, but I don't see the issue with that..he's a point guard. To me, the athleticism is more important for EVERY other position. Is it nice for a PG..yea it is. Necessary..so long as Price can keep up with the other PGs (which he can, Nash was the guy who gave him the most trouble, and that was because of PnRs not because Nash was more athletic.

I do think he's been ridiculously underrated his entire career, probably because of certain circumstances, even during his fantastic junior season..commentators (sometimes the same guys that saw the same thing happen previously) would talk up the guards on the other team, only to see Price out perform them. (repeatedly) He's not flashy, he's just incredibly smart and an all around good point..which maybe I value the "all around good game" where most tend to value being extremely good at certain skills. But truthfully, the kid can score anytime he wants (or it at least appears that way) being a smart player hasn't changed (although the hard foul which led to the +1 last night would have been stupid, if it wasn't so funny how he bounced off of Horford) Although he's not asked to set people up, he still does it on occassion, so I know he can do it. He made Solo look good with the PnR's last night (it's hard to make Solo look good..) I would say in order to be a "good" quality starter, he needs to become excellent at a few of the skills he's good at, but the potential is certainly there...just like with a lot of the second year PGs.

But he's truly and easily the best PG I've seen in a (men's) Uconn uniform.

And as for NCAA..yea it's fun, it's a little different when you talk about the Uconn women, because at least the media and fans (not sure if the team does) cares about "the streak" ..particularly when the team just beat their biggest obstacle in breaking the winning record. There's a lot of freshman though, so I'm not sure if they will break it. I'm glad that record is in the begining of the season though, if it was going to be broken in like..march..that would be a long year..and a lot of pressure on a lot of freshman.

But truly, the nature of the Uconn (women's) fan is to jump of a bridge ANY time they lose..even early november. :P

As for Darren, who knows..I think his size is part of the problem, and ball hawking is the other problem. He also is terrible with PnRs (not that TJ is better there. AJ seemed to improve in the preseason, he was cheating a bit though. But that's still better than the wide open shots that PGs get against TJ and Darren after the PnR) which to me, might be part of his size too. Darren is speedy though, and he's always got effort going for him, so I think he'll become a very good defender. Right now he's incredibly bad though. Like..Dun Bad..

pacer4ever
11-17-2010, 10:02 PM
For me, I think Price is capable of being a "good starter" People get scared off because he's not ridiculously athletic, but I don't see the issue with that..he's a point guard. To me, the athleticism is more important for EVERY other position. Is it nice for a PG..yea it is. Necessary..so long as Price can keep up with the other PGs (which he can, Nash was the guy who gave him the most trouble, and that was because of PnRs not because Nash was more athletic.

I do think he's been ridiculously underrated his entire career, probably because of certain circumstances, even during his fantastic junior season..commentators (sometimes the same guys that saw the same thing happen previously) would talk up the guards on the other team, only to see Price out perform them. (repeatedly) He's not flashy, he's just incredibly smart and an all around good point..which maybe I value the "all around good game" where most tend to value being extremely good at certain skills.

Easily the best PG I've seen in a (men's) Uconn uniform.

And as for NCAA..yea it's fun, it's a little different when you talk about the Uconn women, because at least the media and fans (not sure if the team does) cares about "the streak" ..particularly when the team just beat their biggest obstacle in breaking the winning record. There's a lot of freshman though, so I'm not sure if they will break it. I'm glad that record is in the begining of the season though, if it was going to be broken in like..march..that would be a long year..and a lot of pressure on a lot of freshman.

But truly, the nature of the Uconn (women's) fan is to jump of a bridge ANY time they lose..even early november. :P

he would get ate alive by wall,westbrook dwill,CP3, Drose, TEvans, Brooks, parker, and about 10 other pg's. If he was atheltic he would of been a 1st rd pick.

Sookie
11-17-2010, 10:09 PM
he would get ate alive by wall,westbrook dwill,CP3, Drose, TEvans, Brooks, parker, and about 10 other pg's. If he was atheltic he would of been a 1st rd pick.

You realize he scored 19 points in a quarter against Westbrook, right?

And I've said this a lot, he was projected to go in the first round the year he tore his ACL. (Projected around 19th, but obviously..couldn't have been drafted after the injury..although I don't know that he would have left anyway)

Last season, he did a pretty darn good job staying in front of Chris Paul. In fact the New Orleans game was one of his better games..if he can do that..I'm not really worried about any other PG.

edit: BTW, it's a shame TJ Ford is such an unlikeable basketball player..he sure seems like he's an extremely likeable guy off the court.

daschysta
11-17-2010, 11:15 PM
TJ won't start whenever Darren is able to go. If he played awesomely last night, maybe, But as it stands Bibby ate him alive AND ford didn't contribute offensively at all.

We really could have used Darren's scoring last night when we went cold in the 3rd.