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King Tuts Tomb
11-13-2010, 04:19 AM
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2010/11/cowherd_on_fathers_and_leaders.html


I got killed on this John Wall thing, and I laugh about it, because I think I'm right and I say it....Oh by the way, what do I always say? Winners hang with winners. Leaders hang with leaders. Losers hang with losers. Dopes hang with dopes....Smart guys, leaders hang out with leaders. Who is John Wall's best friend on the team? Gilbert Arenas. They're inseparable. Think Magic Johnson, Stockton would buddy up with Gilbert Arenas? Really?....

"Big difference between talented and leader. And if you go back and you look at great leaders, they are very rarely from troubled childhoods. They have strong fathers. John Wall - and it's not his fault, nobody's saying it is - comes from a rough upbringing. That doesn't mean you can't be a nice player. if you go look at the history of the NBA - Magic Johnson, strong father. Michael Jordan, strong father. It's not a coincidence. Kobe Bryant, strong father....

"Now, there are exceptions. LeBron James is one. But don't we all question LeBron James's leadership? Don't we all question his heart? I mean, you folks do much more than I do, but don't we all say that LeBron is sort of missing something? Lot of people do. Now, I think LeBron's great. But boy, I'll tell you, that's the overwhelming media and fan felling on LeBron. He just doesn't have that leadership It, whatever It is. Just let the local meatballs attack me for John Wall. That's why they're local meatballs.

King Tuts Tomb
11-13-2010, 04:25 AM
Some more choice words:


One of the things I've always knocked against Derrick Rose of the Chicago Bulls, Derrick Rose has a passive-aggressive personality. He's not confrontational. What does that mean? That's not a good husband, and it's not a good point guard, and it's not a good CEO. They have brain types. And people who test for brain types knew that Peyton Manning would be much more successful than Ryan Leaf, because of Peyton Manning's family background and his confrontational style. Derrick Rose pouts, gets moody, is passive-aggressive. I'm not a fan of Derrick Rose as my point guard. Rajon Rondo? Very confrontational. Argues with Doc Rivers, argues with teammates, argues with officials. I love that in my point guard. Magic would yap, Manning yaps, Brees yaps, Brady yaps, McNabb yaps. I want guys who are confrontational.

Peck
11-13-2010, 04:59 AM
Unless you can find a quote with him actually saying that I think your thread title is a little misleading.

I realize you are not quoting him directly however just a quick glance makes it look like that is what he said.

However having said that let's all just agree that Cowherd is a douche and move on.

Diamond Dave
11-13-2010, 05:22 AM
While I'll agree that most successful leaders in athletics are confrontational in their personality, I'm not necessarily buying the father angle.

However, though it is late I am struggling to come up with the perfect example to squelch this theory. At least in sports that is. Its all over the entertainment industry, but I'm not sure any of those are "leaders."

Regardless, it is assinine to make any proclamations about Wall after 10 games. Especially negative ones. Especially when he has done nothing but hit metaphorical homeruns thus far.

cdash
11-13-2010, 05:30 AM
You really took that out of context. Please, change the title of this thread.

King Tuts Tomb
11-13-2010, 05:38 AM
You really took that out of context. Please, change the title of this thread.

How so? It's the connection he made.

No father = incapable of leadership.

cdash
11-13-2010, 05:41 AM
How so? It's the connection he made.

No father = incapable of leadership.

Yah, but you made it seem like Cowherd said that. He might have implied it in a roundabout way, but he didn't come out and say it like that.

King Tuts Tomb
11-13-2010, 05:42 AM
However, though it is late I am struggling to come up with the perfect example to squelch this theory. At least in sports that is. Its all over the entertainment industry, but I'm not sure any of those are "leaders."


Outside of sports: Barack Obama, Andrew Jackson, George Washington, Bill Clinton.

King Tuts Tomb
11-13-2010, 05:43 AM
Yah, but you made it seem like Cowherd said that. He might have implied it in a roundabout way, but he didn't come out and say it like that.

I'm not sure what's roundabout or implied about what he said. His thesis is pretty clear.

cdash
11-13-2010, 05:57 AM
I'm not sure what's roundabout or implied about what he said. His thesis is pretty clear.

I don't see where it says John Wall's dad is dead. I just see where he says that strong leaders have strong fathers, and John Wall's dad wasn't a strong leader. It just makes it sound a lot worse than it really is.

Kegboy
11-13-2010, 06:43 AM
However having said that let's all just agree that Cowherd is a douche and move on.

:ding:

oxxo
11-13-2010, 07:10 AM
How so? It's the connection he made.

No father = incapable of leadership.

This thread title is EXTREMELY misleading. Cowherd said if you don't have a strong father figure you might not be a particularly good leader. Could be the father left the family, or even just a 'weak' father. That's how your title is very very misleading.

Cowherd is a douche and I don't think he's a particularly good radio or tv host, but he does have somewhat of a point.

Kstat
11-13-2010, 08:56 AM
Extremely misleading thread title. Unnecessary.

DocHolliday
11-13-2010, 09:15 AM
Outside of sports: Barack Obama, Andrew Jackson, George Washington, Bill Clinton.

Barack hasn't led me anywhere.

MLB007
11-13-2010, 09:52 AM
Unless you can find a quote with him actually saying that I think your thread title is a little misleading.

I realize you are not quoting him directly however just a quick glance makes it look like that is what he said.

However having said that let's all just agree that Cowherd is a douche and move on.

There is considerable psychological logic there, whether you agree with it or not.

MLB007
11-13-2010, 09:54 AM
How so? It's the connection he made.

No father = less likely incapable of leadership.

Fixed (and it's true)

MLB007
11-13-2010, 09:55 AM
Barack hasn't led me anywhere.

he's the leader of the most powerful country in the world.
He IS your leader. ;)

Slick Pinkham
11-13-2010, 10:16 AM
Isiah Thomas, as a player?

No Dad, from the "projects"

great leader on the court, legendary player

Doddage
11-13-2010, 10:34 AM
Well, regardless of what he said, I think Colin Cowherd is a douche bag.

BringJackBack
11-13-2010, 11:02 AM
Isaiah Thomas
Larry Bird
Lebron James

All haven't had fathers that were really around for them compared to

Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant

I don't really think that this argument holds much water anyway.

As with the second quote, I'd take Rondo over Rose too, but if I were Chicago I'd be happy with what I have.

idioteque
11-13-2010, 11:08 AM
You're more likely to succeed if you grow up in a two parent household. Let's not try to legitimize or further institutionalize horrible behavior here.

Stryder
11-13-2010, 11:11 AM
Title is very misleading and misrepresentative of what Cowherd actually said.

I say to the mods, fix the title. No reason for this crap.

BringJackBack
11-13-2010, 11:14 AM
Not at all what I am saying. At all. I am not excusing leaving their children at all. At all. Not a single bit. I feel the way you do about this behavior.

I am saying that just because someone doesn't have a dad doesn't mean that they have an excuse to be unsuccessful. At least thats what one of my professors said. That also doesn't mean that they won't have that killer instinct. That is what Larry Bird was exclusively known for.

KennerLeaguer
11-13-2010, 11:21 AM
I guess Kevin Durant is screwed too.

Young
11-13-2010, 11:55 AM
Colin was talking about being a LEADER. There is a difference between being a great LEADER and a great PLAYER. They don't always go together.

Guys like Derek Fisher and Udonis Haslem are considered leaders and they are not their teams best players.

I don't always think highly of what Cowherd has to say but there is truth to what he said or at least what has been quoted here. There are exceptions to what he said but the chance of being a good leader increase with a strong father figure. This isn't breaking news.

John Wall is already a good player in the NBA and very talented. He CAN be a great LEADER regardless of his background the chance of that just isn't as likely as someone with a different background.

BlueNGold
11-13-2010, 12:04 PM
One of the things I've always knocked against Derrick Rose of the Chicago Bulls, Derrick Rose has a passive-aggressive personality. He's not confrontational. What does that mean? That's not a good husband, and it's not a good point guard, and it's not a good CEO. They have brain types. And people who test for brain types knew that Peyton Manning would be much more successful than Ryan Leaf, because of Peyton Manning's family background and his confrontational style. Derrick Rose pouts, gets moody, is passive-aggressive. I'm not a fan of Derrick Rose as my point guard. Rajon Rondo? Very confrontational. Argues with Doc Rivers, argues with teammates, argues with officials. I love that in my point guard. Magic would yap, Manning yaps, Brees yaps, Brady yaps, McNabb yaps. I want guys who are confrontational.

A lot of this is true. Leaders are typically not passive-aggressive. Good ones are almost without exception confrontational.

Otherwise, this thread has not been worth reading.

vnzla81
11-13-2010, 12:12 PM
This thread title sucks

Basketball Fan
11-13-2010, 12:47 PM
I think there's some truth to it a father's role in a child's life is very important and can shape how the child turns out.

Of course its not foolproof there are those who don't have fathers growing up or incredibly lousy ones and turn out just fine.

Its not something you can generalize.

dal9
11-13-2010, 12:54 PM
Yah, but you made it seem like Cowherd said that. He might have implied it in a roundabout way, but he didn't come out and say it like that.

that was a lot more than "implying it in a roundabout way"

grace
11-13-2010, 01:01 PM
However having said that let's all just agree that Cowherd is a douche and move on.

Actually when I think of him another word that starts with D comes to mind.

BlueNGold
11-13-2010, 01:06 PM
Leaders are born, not usually formed by their upbringing. However, a person's upbringing can lead them to wrong choices and eliminate the possibility they will do anything positive with that portion of their personality. When a father is not in the house, the mother must do both jobs...and honestly, they are not capable of doing it as well as two people in a stable relationship. The consequences and costs are almost indescribable at a macro level...

MLB007
11-13-2010, 02:22 PM
Isiah Thomas, as a player?

No Dad, from the "projects"

great leader on the court, legendary player

Wow, couldn't be more wrong about his leadership. :eek:
History is full of Isiah stories about what an egotistical aHoe he was.
He was great player no doubt, but that doesn't make him a leader.

Day-V
11-13-2010, 02:28 PM
I've been watching Cowherd over the past few weeks and listening to him talk about it.

He seemed to really get pissed off for some reason about John Wall doing the "Dougie" during his first home game. That's where this whole "Cowherd vs. Wall" thing started.

MLB007
11-13-2010, 03:06 PM
Isaiah Thomas
Larry Bird
Lebron James

All haven't had fathers that were really around for them compared to

Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant

I don't really think that this argument holds much water anyway.

As with the second quote, I'd take Rondo over Rose too, but if I were Chicago I'd be happy with what I have.

Isiah was not a leader.
He was a great player that lead ONLY by playing very well himself.
Lebron bailed rather than lead.

Not good examples for that side. :D

King Tuts Tomb
11-13-2010, 04:43 PM
Anyone who thinks Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant were great leaders doesn't know anything about Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant.

No one is saying that a one parent home is preferable to two parents, but the notion that a child with a single parent can't become a leader is foolish, and unsupported by the facts. Julius Caesar would disagree with Cowherd, as would the millions of other examples of great men who had the misfortune of having a father die early.

As for the thread title being misleading, how so?

Cowherd's stated pretty clearly that you can't be a great leader without a father and gave several (incorrect) examples. He knows John Wall's father is dead, otherwise he wouldn't have brought it up. What's the confusion?

Peck
11-13-2010, 05:47 PM
Simply put it is the way you have it typed out. I understand you are not using quotes so in that sense you are correct.

However upon glancing at the digest & looking at the title it appears to be that you are saying that this is what he said & by definition he did not actually say this.

He may have implied it, he may have given every single reason to make you think he mean it but the fact is he did not actually say it.

The easiest way for you to correct this would be to remove the colon's and insert the words *according to* before Colin Cowherd.

It would simply remove any confusion about it being a quote and still relays the same message that you are wanting to make now without the message itself becoming the topic of conversation.

Just my :twocents:

BornReady
11-13-2010, 06:29 PM
what is this nonsense?

BlueNGold
11-13-2010, 06:34 PM
Cowherd senses something about Wall that is just not right. That something might be that he's hanging with Gilbert Arenas. Really, Cowherd is reaching for something he values and understands. So, as usual with him, much of this is all about his huge ego. "Leadership" is the term he's using, but I don't think it's applicable. I don't know John Wall, so I can only speculate. Is a better term "character"? I think it's reasonable to use that as a possibility for what Cowherd really thinks considering he started talking about passive-aggressiveness. He was basically attacking Rose's personality and tying it to being a poor husband. That's broader than leadership...and more like a criticism of the guy's character.

BTW, while leaders are born, character is something developed as a child. If he's talking about character, he's probably closer to being right. Even then, there are lots of exceptions...

Hicks
11-13-2010, 06:57 PM
Isaiah Thomas
Larry Bird
Lebron James

All haven't had fathers that were really around for them compared to

Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant

I don't really think that this argument holds much water anyway.

As with the second quote, I'd take Rondo over Rose too, but if I were Chicago I'd be happy with what I have.

What's interesting about those six you list is that the top 3 were/so-far-are less successful than the bottom three.

Eleazar
11-13-2010, 06:59 PM
Julius Caesar would disagree with Cowherd, as would the millions of other examples of great men who had the misfortune of having a father die early.


Julius Ceasar may not have had a father, but he grew up in one of the richest and most powerful families in Rome and a culture that pushed boys to be highly competitive. He certainly had some kind of father figure and the right culture around him.

Leaders aren't born. Leaders are made by events in the life. To keep with the history lesson. If Hannibal wasn't basically raised within a military camp do you think he would have been such a great leader to almost destroy Rome just as it was taking off? Hell no he wouldn't have.

There are two ways you become a leader. You learn it from a father or mentor of some kind, or you are forced into it by circumstance.

The reason you see more leaders come from families with strong father figures that lead their family is because the child grew up learning how to lead from his father.

At the same time personality does have a huge effect. If someone is easily affected by what happens around them that person is going to be so all over the place that it is highly unlikely that person will ever become a leader. That is if a teams star player is one of those who sulks when things don't go his way often underachieve. The person who they should be looking for as a leader, if by nothing else than lead by example, looks like he doesn't care it is going to have an effect on everyone.

Hicks
11-13-2010, 07:03 PM
Anyway, I agree with most of you that it implies that's exactly what Cowherd said, when in fact it's an interpretation, so I edited the title.

BlueNGold
11-13-2010, 07:51 PM
Leaders aren't born. Leaders are made by events in the life.

That's not true. Leadership is a gift or talent that comes with your DNA. It's like charisma...or humor...or intelligence. People have these gifts from the moment they are conceived...and it doesn't matter if you came from a wealthy background or the projects. Certainly people can improve upon them...and learn from others...but there are some hard limitations.

Character and the choices you make in life are more under everyone's control. Those are the types of things where a strong family has an impact.

woowoo
11-13-2010, 07:55 PM
Unless you can find a quote with him actually saying that I think your thread title is a little misleading.

I realize you are not quoting him directly however just a quick glance makes it look like that is what he said.

However having said that let's all just agree that Cowherd is a douche and move on.

Cowherd is the preachiest blowhard in all of talk radio, I cannot stand to even hear is froggy voice.

MLB007
11-13-2010, 08:38 PM
Julius Ceasar may not have had a father, but he grew up in one of the richest and most powerful families in Rome and a culture that pushed boys to be highly competitive. He certainly had some kind of father figure and the right culture around him.

Leaders aren't born. Leaders are made by events in the life. To keep with the history lesson. If Hannibal wasn't basically raised within a military camp do you think he would have been such a great leader to almost destroy Rome just as it was taking off? Hell no he wouldn't have.

There are two ways you become a leader. You learn it from a father or mentor of some kind, or you are forced into it by circumstance.

The reason you see more leaders come from families with strong father figures that lead their family is because the child grew up learning how to lead from his father.

At the same time personality does have a huge effect. If someone is easily affected by what happens around them that person is going to be so all over the place that it is highly unlikely that person will ever become a leader. That is if a teams star player is one of those who sulks when things don't go his way often underachieve. The person who they should be looking for as a leader, if by nothing else than lead by example, looks like he doesn't care it is going to have an effect on everyone.

Well said.
Nobody is saying you can't be a leader if you didn't have a strong father figure.
But it's a lot more likely if you do.
Even if that person is a coach or uncle or something.
Just as nobody learns to work hard by osmosis, you learn to lead by seeing others do it first.

Anthem
11-13-2010, 09:49 PM
Ignoring the father angle for a moment, if I was Washington I'd really hate his point about leaders hang with leaders. That's less controversial, right?

The idea of my franchise-saving #1 pick spending all of his time with Gilbert Arenas would scare the crap out of me.

judicata
11-14-2010, 01:01 AM
It might be easier for a man to learn a few things if his pop teaches him, but that isn't the only way to learn.

Nature v. Nurture on PD. We can't even solve the Josh v. Tyler debate, we may be in above our heads folks.

dal9
11-14-2010, 03:02 AM
That's not true. Leadership is a gift or talent that comes with your DNA. It's like charisma...or humor...or intelligence. People have these gifts from the moment they are conceived...

i think all of these claims are wrong...i mean really, we are going to find the "humor gene?"

all of these concepts are culturally construed--that is, they cannot be "objectively measured"--and i would argue that their development is strongly influenced by the environment

ilive4sports
11-14-2010, 03:25 AM
That's not true. Leadership is a gift or talent that comes with your DNA. It's like charisma...or humor...or intelligence. People have these gifts from the moment they are conceived...and it doesn't matter if you came from a wealthy background or the projects. Certainly people can improve upon them...and learn from others...but there are some hard limitations.

Character and the choices you make in life are more under everyone's control. Those are the types of things where a strong family has an impact.


What? Charisma and humor all depend on your life and how you live. It has absolutely nothing to do with DNA. You are a like your parents because thats what you grow up seeing, not because of DNA. Same thing with Leadership. It is a learned practice from experience. Some people can lead, others can't and its not because their genetics.

spazzxb
11-14-2010, 05:37 AM
Barack hasn't led me anywhere.

Don't bring politics here. Since you did though,
he is just the one fixing your guys mess

danman
11-14-2010, 09:52 AM
Pop psychology is asinine on talk radio and on message boards. That said, cowherd is hitting below the belt. Middle aged radio mouth rips a rookie for ratings, featuring the rookie's deceased father. Real classy. Yeah, Cowhers's a go to guy for insight on leadership.

ilive4sports
11-14-2010, 01:48 PM
I can't stand listening to cowherd any more. He always had a big ego, but when he got his TV show it blew up to extreme proportions. This whole thing started cause Wall did the Dougie in the season opener. THen he has a triple double and this is how he responded. I find it funny how he likes Rondo so much. I wonder if he knows Rondo grew up without a father too. I bet he likes Deron Williams too who also grew up without a father. John wall is going to be a great NBA PG. He is 19 and Colin is acting like he can't get better.

BlueNGold
11-14-2010, 02:28 PM
Pop psychology is asinine on talk radio and on message boards. That said, cowherd is hitting below the belt. Middle aged radio mouth rips a rookie for ratings, featuring the rookie's deceased father. Real classy. Yeah, Cowhers's a go to guy for insight on leadership.

One of the better posts I've read in awhile.

MLB007
11-14-2010, 02:54 PM
Leaders are born, not usually formed by their upbringing.

Show one reference from any credible source to support this idea and I'll gladly bow to you.

MLB007
11-14-2010, 02:55 PM
That's not true. Leadership is a gift or talent that comes with your DNA. It's like charisma...or humor...or intelligence. People have these gifts from the moment they are conceived...and it doesn't matter if you came from a wealthy background or the projects. Certainly people can improve upon them...and learn from others...but there are some hard limitations.

Character and the choices you make in life are more under everyone's control. Those are the types of things where a strong family has an impact.

Sorry, but that's just not true.

MLB007
11-14-2010, 02:56 PM
It might be easier for a man to learn a few things if his pop teaches him, but that isn't the only way to learn.

Nature v. Nurture on PD. We can't even solve the Josh v. Tyler debate, we may be in above our heads folks.

Easier is exactly what we're saying.

If your intelligence/interest stops with basketball then you might be right.

xBulletproof
11-14-2010, 02:57 PM
Sorry, but that's just not true.

Damn, I wouldn't have believed this 20 minutes ago. But I'm convinced after this compelling retort.

Sookie
11-14-2010, 04:02 PM
Damn, I wouldn't have believed this 20 minutes ago. But I'm convinced after this compelling retort.

It's a combination of both, IMO. Just like all things. Nothing is completely nature or completely environmental.

People learn how to be a leader through their life experiences and social experiences.

But there are also natural traits that some people have and some people don't. Some people aren't good with other people, some people don't speak up, some people are just charasmatic..

but it's a mix, it's not black and white..as most things are. I doubt there are many 19 year olds capable of being a fantastic leader in the NBA though. So give Wall a few years.

Ransom
11-16-2010, 02:45 AM
Nobody evaluates NBA talent like Colin Cowherd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LulSsTbflGU

Oden big upside? His durability!

kester99
11-16-2010, 03:31 AM
"Durant has Antonio McDyess written all over him."

The kids and their tats nowadays, I swear. Eeeew.

ilive4sports
11-16-2010, 04:31 AM
No way Colin benches 185. Dude is small as ****. I've seen him in person.

Slick Pinkham
11-16-2010, 09:37 AM
Show one reference from any credible source to support this idea and I'll gladly bow to you.

It seems to be 39% true.
:)

Richard D. Arvey, The Determinants of Leadership: The Role of Genetic, Personality, and Cognitive Factors, Journal of Allplied Psychology

http://www.legacy-irc.csom.umn.edu/RePEC/hrr/papers/1302.pdf





Abstract:
A sample of 646 male twins (331 monozygotic or identical, 315 dizygotic or fraternal twins) completed a survey indicating their leadership role occupancy in work settings. Data on these individuals were also available for personality and cognitive variables. As predicted, two personality variables (Social Potency and Achievement) and a cognitive variable (a vocabulary test) were significantly correlated with the leadership variable. Subsequently, univariate and multivariate genetic analyses showed that a substantial portion of this leadership variance was accounted for by genetic factors (39 percent)while non-shared (or non-common) environmental factors accounted for the remaining variance in this leadership variable.

Genetic influences were shown for the personality and cognitive factors as well. Finally, results indicated that the genetic influences for the leadership factor were substantially associated with or common with the genetic factors influencing the personality factors but not with the cognitive variable.

:hmm:

BringJackBack
12-22-2010, 08:11 PM
In case you don't think Colin is a doucher, look now..:


dukesux1 @MikeWellsNBA Colin Cowherd just said if Phil Jackson doesn't want to play on Christmas, he should coach Pacers. They're never on. Ouch.

http://twitter.com/MikeWellsNBA

Sparhawk
12-22-2010, 09:59 PM
In case you don't think Colin is a doucher, look now..:



http://twitter.com/MikeWellsNBA

That stings a little. This guy loves to go below the belt to get ratings. Kind of twisted. I think he realizes that he doesn't have actual substance when he talks, so he has to be extreme to be heard.

Very sad.

cdash
12-22-2010, 10:02 PM
Cowherd is kind of a blowhard. At least he's not Skip Bayless--my all time least favorite TV personality.

Young
12-22-2010, 11:22 PM
Cowherd is kind of a blowhard. At least he's not Skip Bayless--my all time least favorite TV personality.

Agreed.

I'll give Cowherd this...he does make some valid points...sometimes.

Skip Bayless just rambles on and on. Ever notice when he is on set with other analysis he just talks right over them and shouts? I can't stand listening to him. Even if he does share anything worth saying it goes unnoticed because of the way he communicates. Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith are right down there with the bottom of sports analysis. I'll listen to Cowherd or Jim Rome any day of the week.

Day-V
12-22-2010, 11:31 PM
It's guys like him that make you respect the opinions of guys like SVP a whole lot more. Dude is able to have an intelligent opinion without acting like he knows all and that any differing opinion is wrong.

tikitomoka
12-22-2010, 11:34 PM
if jim rome and colin cowherd just left tv and radio forever, i would be ecstatic

cdash
12-23-2010, 06:31 AM
Agreed.

I'll give Cowherd this...he does make some valid points...sometimes.

Skip Bayless just rambles on and on. Ever notice when he is on set with other analysis he just talks right over them and shouts? I can't stand listening to him. Even if he does share anything worth saying it goes unnoticed because of the way he communicates. Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith are right down there with the bottom of sports analysis. I'll listen to Cowherd or Jim Rome any day of the week.

Couldn't agree more. I had purged SAS from my memory until this post. He and Skip Bayless are the worst.