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View Full Version : JOB using Hibbert at the Elbow...



graphic-er
11-12-2010, 11:56 PM
I have to bring this up because it just mind boggling to me. 2 straight losses where the opposing team's best player/center is out of the game, both teams literally have no one capable of guarding Roy Hibbert in the post. Yet we see JOB going away from dumping the ball to him down low, and more of Hibbert facilitating the offense at the Elbow. I do not understand this move. I do not need Roy Hibbert to shoot a mid range jumper like Brad Miller, its nice if its there as a last resort. But why should our 7-2 post player be looking for that shot, when nobody can actually stop him down low. These are games where Hibbert could easily score 25-30pts with his post game. These are situations where teams would have to leave their man to help out the Drew Goodens and Brad Millers, thus leaving their man open. Isn't this better than hoping one of our wings might move without the ball and cut towards the basket or taking another jump shot?

Am I the only one who notices this?

BringJackBack
11-13-2010, 12:08 AM
Thank you for saying this. It is very much appreciated as this is exactly what I feel.

jmoney2584
11-13-2010, 12:30 AM
One of my many thoughts of displeasure as well.

I believe JOBs idea behind it is that it accentuates Roy's ability to pass and by being on the elbow it allows for people to move in front and behind him, giving him more potential options.

Now, this is just how i interpret it. On the surface, there is nothing wrong with this. However, I believe it should be in limited situations. Maybe Roy backing down in the low post, but doesn't feel comfortable with the shot, or can't get the desired position...pass out and come to the high post to get the ball again and hopefully some player movement will occur as the players cycle around roy as the focal point. Think of Roy as the actual nipple and the other players rotating, screening and cutting around him in motion within the space that would be the areola. A nice play would be the milk...... where was I going with this...Oh yea, I think the high post could be effective if used ito set up the low post, the low post being where 70-75% of his offense comes from. Use the high post just to keep'em off balance or in the beginning of a play to facilitate good player movement.

BTW Don't jude this post to harshly, my sobriety is slightly questionable after the loss tonight.

pacer4ever
11-13-2010, 12:33 AM
I have to bring this up because it just mind boggling to me. 2 straight losses where the opposing team's best player/center is out of the game, both teams literally have no one capable of guarding Roy Hibbert in the post. Yet we see JOB going away from dumping the ball to him down low, and more of Hibbert facilitating the offense at the Elbow. I do not understand this move. I do not need Roy Hibbert to shoot a mid range jumper like Brad Miller, its nice if its there as a last resort. But why should our 7-2 post player be looking for that shot, when nobody can actually stop him down low. These are games where Hibbert could easily score 25-30pts with his post game. These are situations where teams would have to leave their man to help out the Drew Goodens and Brad Millers, thus leaving their man open. Isn't this better than hoping one of our wings might move without the ball and cut towards the basket or taking another jump shot?

Am I the only one who notices this?

ive noticed this also ya thank u for the post. We should have had Roy posting Brad up during the whole 4th qt.

Trophy
11-13-2010, 12:54 AM
I agree.

I also notice that when Roy takes that shot, although it might go in, he doesn't look comfortable taking it. That's not what he really worked on this offseason.

Roy is needed down low and that's what he's accustom to.

He could've taken advantage in the post because Brad Miller struggles to defend down low.

He did score 18 points though so he still had a decent game.

Hicks
11-13-2010, 01:39 AM
I have to bring this up because it just mind boggling to me. 2 straight losses where the opposing team's best player/center is out of the game, both teams literally have no one capable of guarding Roy Hibbert in the post. Yet we see JOB going away from dumping the ball to him down low, and more of Hibbert facilitating the offense at the Elbow. I do not understand this move. I do not need Roy Hibbert to shoot a mid range jumper like Brad Miller, its nice if its there as a last resort. But why should our 7-2 post player be looking for that shot, when nobody can actually stop him down low. These are games where Hibbert could easily score 25-30pts with his post game. These are situations where teams would have to leave their man to help out the Drew Goodens and Brad Millers, thus leaving their man open. Isn't this better than hoping one of our wings might move without the ball and cut towards the basket or taking another jump shot?

Am I the only one who notices this?

I'm especially frustrated on nights like tonight when Houston's defense was playing to prevent our cutters from getting anything near the rim. The only passes we had to make from the high post were either out to the sides or a handoff for a long-range 2 or a 3.

Post their asses up. I'd rather risk Roy letting us down after we force feed him on the low block that taking the shots we ended up with tonight.

Kemo
11-13-2010, 02:30 AM
Think of Roy as the actual nipple


lol you called roy a nipple ...

sorry my immature inner child laughed @ that , but i see the umm point you were trying to make..

Psycho T
11-13-2010, 02:34 AM
Hibbert probably could have fouled out Miller and Scola if he got the ball in the post as many times as he should have.

The good teams / coaches gameplan to take advantage of stuff like this.

The Jackson shimmy
11-13-2010, 09:52 AM
Maybe JOB has been buring the midnight oil watching old clips of
the '77 Blazers (ie, Hibbs in the Bill Walton role)...

MLB007
11-13-2010, 02:21 PM
Gotta agree

McKeyFan
11-13-2010, 02:39 PM
Psa. 6:3

odeez
11-13-2010, 03:00 PM
Yes, it is crazy the way JOB uses Roy in the post. I wouldn't be surprised if he pushed him out beyond the three point line. You would think he would want him post to exploit the Rockets lack of size and force Brad to defend him.

BillS
11-13-2010, 03:13 PM
Did anyone see how hard it was for anyone to get the ball to Roy when he WAS in the low post? The success that comes to mind was when Dun had to lob it way up in the air to get it to him, and by the time Roy was set after catching it he was swarmed with bodies and couldn't do anything with it.

Roy isn't yet able to force his way up to the rim when he is physically defended, he has to have room for a move or a hook shot.

imawhat
11-13-2010, 03:21 PM
We had some spacing issues at times, but then we'd repost successfully. There was what, one/two plays where Hibbert got trapped?

Hell, I'd take Hibbert at the elbow over what we're normally doing. What grinds my gears is that when Solomon was playing he'd get the ball at the elbow on almost every offensive possession, which is exactly what Hibbert should be doing.

Hicks
11-13-2010, 08:02 PM
Another thing that bugs me is when I see a would-be post feeder stare at Roy for 2-4 seconds while Roy has position before finally giving him the ball.

CableKC
11-13-2010, 08:08 PM
You guys are complaining about this now?

I remember complaining about the same thing when Foster was our Center and he would be camped near the top of the key or around the elbow taking shots. Heck....Solo does the same. Hasn't JO'B run the Offense like this for the last 3 years?

flox
11-16-2010, 08:14 PM
Did anyone see how hard it was for anyone to get the ball to Roy when he WAS in the low post? The success that comes to mind was when Dun had to lob it way up in the air to get it to him, and by the time Roy was set after catching it he was swarmed with bodies and couldn't do anything with it.

Roy isn't yet able to force his way up to the rim when he is physically defended, he has to have room for a move or a hook shot.

This. This a lot.

TheDon
11-16-2010, 11:49 PM
My mind boggles that instead of letting our point guard create shots for teammates we let our 7'2'' center do it...it is the most bassackwards offense I've ever seen any coach utilize. Am I glad that Roy can do it? Yeah...do I think it's the most effective way to run an offense? No...

graphic-er
11-17-2010, 12:24 AM
Several times tonight we seen Roy come above the arch to catch a pass. Whats up with that? Your 7-2 center has no business running offense up there! If I were our opponents I'd give him that long range 2pt jumper all night long. No way is he gonna hit that at a better clip than his jump hook and I don't have to worry about my big buy fouling hibbert in the post. JOB simply gives advantages to opponents with the offense he wants to run.

DonSwanson
11-17-2010, 12:44 AM
Several times tonight we seen Roy come above the arch to catch a pass. Whats up with that? Your 7-2 center has no business running offense up there! If I were our opponents I'd give him that long range 2pt jumper all night long. No way is he gonna hit that at a better clip than his jump hook and I don't have to worry about my big buy fouling hibbert in the post. JOB simply gives advantages to opponents with the offense he wants to run.

Actually, through 8 games Hibbert was slightly more accurate from 16 to 23 feet compared to inside of 10 feet.

http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Roy%20Hibbert

I like using Hibbert at the high post, it adds another element to his game. If he were a dominant low post player (he's clearly not) then you could just milk that all day. But even tonight in the post game quotes Roy takes responsibility for not establishing better position during the 3rd quarter.

Quoting the Pacersí Roy Hibbert

ď(On the difference between the first half and the second half) Second half I couldnít find my spot and was pushed off of it. You canít play that way. There are two halves and you have to be consistent. I should have boxed out better."

He's respectable in the low post and decent as well in the high post with his decision making. I think it just makes him a bigger all-around threat.

IUfan4life
11-17-2010, 12:47 AM
I think if people actually watched what was happening instead of having their heads filled with the Roy Hibbert hype machine that was this summer, then a lot more criticism, and less complaining about Roy's touches in the post would occur

graphic-er
11-17-2010, 12:57 AM
Actually, through 8 games Hibbert was slightly more accurate from 16 to 23 feet compared to inside of 10 feet.

http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Roy%20Hibbert

I like using Hibbert at the high post, it adds another element to his game. If he were a dominant low post player (he's clearly not) then you could just milk that all day. But even tonight in the post game quotes Roy takes responsibility for not establishing better position during the 3rd quarter.

Quoting the Pacersí Roy Hibbert

ď(On the difference between the first half and the second half) Second half I couldnít find my spot and was pushed off of it. You canít play that way. There are two halves and you have to be consistent. I should have boxed out better."

He's respectable in the low post and decent as well in the high post with his decision making. I think it just makes him a bigger all-around threat.

I don't really care if he is slightly more accurate. It takes him out of the post. Gets him away from drawing fouls. For the handful of shots he misses down in the post he is also going to get a handful of FT attempts to make up for it. He's not getting fouled for taking the 20' jumper.

spazzxb
11-17-2010, 01:43 AM
I have to bring this up because it just mind boggling to me. 2 straight losses where the opposing team's best player/center is out of the game, both teams literally have no one capable of guarding Roy Hibbert in the post. Yet we see JOB going away from dumping the ball to him down low, and more of Hibbert facilitating the offense at the Elbow. I do not understand this move. I do not need Roy Hibbert to shoot a mid range jumper like Brad Miller, its nice if its there as a last resort. But why should our 7-2 post player be looking for that shot, when nobody can actually stop him down low. These are games where Hibbert could easily score 25-30pts with his post game. These are situations where teams would have to leave their man to help out the Drew Goodens and Brad Millers, thus leaving their man open. Isn't this better than hoping one of our wings might move without the ball and cut towards the basket or taking another jump shot?

Am I the only one who notices this?

Did you watch what happened when he tried to Post Brad Miller. Maybe he just need to bend down more but he isn't able to back guys down. Getting a lower center of gravity might help, but Hibbert was getting outplayed by Miller that night and Got pulled because Miller put up 9 quick points.

Unclebuck
11-17-2010, 09:11 AM
Did anyone see how hard it was for anyone to get the ball to Roy when he WAS in the low post? The success that comes to mind was when Dun had to lob it way up in the air to get it to him, and by the time Roy was set after catching it he was swarmed with bodies and couldn't do anything with it.

Roy isn't yet able to force his way up to the rim when he is physically defended, he has to have room for a move or a hook shot.

I think most in this forum fail to realize teams main defensive goal against Roy is to keep him from getting low post position.

Trophy
11-17-2010, 10:10 AM
A system that slowed down the offense and there were more PnRs for Darren to feed the ball to Roy in the post would be great.

Roy's gotten very aggressive in the post and has the ability to score down there.

beast23
11-17-2010, 11:11 AM
I believe it is extremely important for the Pacers to attempt to establish a low post presence early in the game. If successful and it is creating opportunities and points for Roy, you go to it until the opponent doubles Roy every time down the floor to prevent it.

Then, and only then, do you use Roy near the elbow. If Roy is defended by only a single defender behind him at the elbow, he has proven that (with ample spacing by the other strong side players), he is capable of putting the ball on the floor and getting a good shot at or near the rim.

I believe that Roy is the best player we have at causing foul problems for the opponent's big men. That is something that should be exploited as much as possible.

But a major point is that we have an offensive advantage with Roy in the paint. It should be a priority with our offense that Roy either score points at will or the opponent be forced to double-team him. If Roy is double-teamed and we do not enjoy a resultant advantage somewhere else on the floor, then shame on us. But in the event that Roy is double-teamed, I think we easily have 5 other possible advantages on the floor. They are called:
1. The ability of our PG to drive the ball on the weak side to further create.
2. A wide open look by Granger.
3. A wide open look by Rush.
4. A wide open look by Dunleavy.
5. A wide open look by Hansbrough on the weak side baseline.

Certainly, this is an over-simplification of the offensive and opponent's defensive dynamic. But personally, I like the options we have off of a double-teamed Hibbert; we just have to find ways to force that to happen each game. When the double team doesn't come, I have faith in Hibbert that he can score. If he is double-teamed, then I challenge the opponent to cover our other options in a 3-on-4 situation. If we don't learn to have great success in exploiting that situation, then it's time for either a new coach and/or new personnel.