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Trader Joe
11-12-2010, 10:26 PM
Playoff teams, teams on the rise, don't lose AT HOME to the Bucks without BOGUT and the Rockets without YAO and BROOKS in the span of a week. Period.

You can say I'm overreacting, but this was a disgusting week all things considered. The Nuggets game means effectively nothing. Two gimmes just given away.

Also, Stacey Paetz, I don't care what Kevin Martin has to say.

McKeyFan
11-12-2010, 10:28 PM
Roy is our second best player. Our best rebounder. Our second best scorer.

He's also the heart of the team, and I think a gamer. And he's good at free throws. Why the he!! is he not in at the end?

I told ya'll JOB would bench Roy at the end of games.

oxxo
11-12-2010, 10:29 PM
We will never go anywhere with JOB as the coach. We never know what we have (players) because he plays random rotations with no thought whatsover.

Sookie
11-12-2010, 10:29 PM
Experienced playoff teams do. Our young guys aren't experienced.

The pacers are going to win some games they shouldn't win too. And at the end of the day, this doesn't hurt as bad..because a week ago, with a healthy Yao and Brooks, this was most definitely a loss. This was a gift, and would have helped...but it's not that huge.

kester99
11-12-2010, 10:30 PM
Roy is our second best player. Our best rebounder. Our second best scorer.

He's also the heart of the team, and I think a gamer. And he's good at free throws. Why the he!! is he not in at the end?


Because Brad Miller was eating his lunch?

Trader Joe
11-12-2010, 10:30 PM
I had a hell of a time getting the forum to post this thread.

And yeah, the Roy call gets the biggest :wtf: so far.

Although, it's only happened once so I'm not sure you should be patting yourself on the back. 1/7 isn't exactly the best percentage.

PaceBalls
11-12-2010, 10:30 PM
Fire the freakin' coach.

/insert plainly obvious reasons

Trader Joe
11-12-2010, 10:31 PM
Experienced playoff teams do. Our young guys aren't experienced.

The pacers are going to win some games they shouldn't win too. And at the end of the day, this doesn't hurt as bad..because a week ago, with a healthy Yao and Brooks, this was most definitely a loss. This was a gift, and would have helped...but it's not that huge.

This team has won a single game...arguably their two best players were out. This loss and the Bucks loss are worse than the Sixers loss.

LG33
11-12-2010, 10:31 PM
Let down game!

McKeyFan
11-12-2010, 10:32 PM
And yeah, the Roy call gets the biggest :wtf: so far.

Although, it's only happened once so I'm not sure you should be patting yourself on the back. 1/7 isn't exactly the best percentage.

I hope you're right.

Jon Theodore
11-12-2010, 10:32 PM
I can't argue with you, this is not a playoff team. Even in the weak eastern conference we are NOT a playoff team. I am going to have to find a way to enjoy watching this team play, while knowing we are NOT a playoff team. Very frustrating how wildly inconsistent we are, I don't think i've ever seen such extremes of good or terrible from one team.

Hibbert was getting owned by Brad Miller on offense, he should have been on the bench. I think Hansbrough would of been better than McRoberts in the end (sure his shot was off, but he is a proven winner who probably would have come up big).

Officials were terrible, but they were equally terrible for both teams so that is a wash.

When Granger is traded or learns how to dribble and pass we will be dangerous, until then we will be a team who can only win when we are shooting lights out.

Trophy
11-12-2010, 10:35 PM
This was pathetic. Just ashame.

This team cannot get into any kind of rhythm. They are very inconsistent.

I mean how in the world does Brad Miller make 3-3 from behind the arc.

This game was a mess. The offense was awful. No one was moving without the ball.

The Rockets defense wasn't anything we couldn't overcome.

With Brandon Rush, he makes me so angry. I mean I guess he can't overcome being such an inconsistent player. Just really pathetic.

Like you said we've had advantages against poor teams that don't have their key player(s) available and we still make the game harder than it should and the fact that lose to bad teams in bad ways, is embarrassing and ridiculous.

Here's another example of the Pacers taking a team's poor record for granted.

We won't be going to the playoffs if this is how we go out and play. We must play hard consistently. We are a very good team, but we tend to slack off against crappy teams.

Cleveland tomorrow night is a must win.

EDIT: What's up with Danny lately? He's hasn't been scoring over 20 like he usually does and he was looking like an elite player until these past few games. If he's not playing consistently, then we have a problem.

Psycho T
11-12-2010, 10:36 PM
I thought McRoberts had a pretty terrible game. Didnt play good defense and didnt box out. He should not have been out there in the 4th.

Good to see Posey finally making shots. Got several good looks and knocked them down. Surprised JOB didnt put Hans in street close after Posey made those 3s.

Outside of Hibbert being in a mismatch on the defensive end he played well. Miller escaping from him late really hurt though. JOB should have moved Hans over to Miller and either Hibbert on Scola ( who was in the game at that time ) or just put in Posey for him which he did.

Granger had a quiet game again.

Dunleavy had a good single stretch but other than that was quiet.

Hope Hansbroughs hand is ok. Looked like he got hit pretty good by one of the 3 guys.. was holding his hand for awhile there. It probably is since he came back in later. Overall he had an 'ok' game. Played pretty good defense as I dont think Scola or Miller scored while he was on them.

Had a chance to win this one..

kester99
11-12-2010, 10:37 PM
This is a very young team with pieces still trying to fit together. We're going to see stuff like this all year (and would even if your favorite all-time coach was our coach).

And the refs didn't help. But there you go.

Kamiyohk
11-12-2010, 10:38 PM
1.GOOD ENERGY OVERALL
2.BAD ROTATION
3.GRANGER IS NOT ALL STAR
4.REALLY HATE MD'S GAME...NO DEFENSE,PLAY ISOLATION ALL THE TIME
5.COLLISON IS NOT GOOD DEFENDER
6.ROY CAN'T D CENTER LIKE B.MILLER WHO CAN SHOOT 3
7.RUSH AND JOSH PLAY WELL ON DEFENSE, ALTHOUGH CAN'T MAKE SHOTS, WE ARE BETTER TEAM WHEN WE HAVE RUSH AND JOSH ON THE COURT
8.POSEY PLAY WELL TODAY,BUT I DON'T LIKE 3'S TAKE BY HIM,
I THINK JOB REALLY MISS MURPHY?
BUT PF SHOULD DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT...COMPETE INSIDE..SET SCREEN,BUT NOT SHOOT 3'S..(IT MAY WORKS TODAY WHEN POSEY GUARDING SCOLAR, BUT OTHER TEAM'S PF? I HATE THAT POSEY PLAY WELL...SO JOB WILL USE THIS XXROTAION TOMORROW AGAIN)

Trader Joe
11-12-2010, 10:40 PM
I just disagree with that Kesty, at some point the "we're a young team" argument becomes just another excuse. There are other young teams that wouldn't have dropped both Bucks game and this game.

McKeyFan
11-12-2010, 10:41 PM
Outside of Hibbert being in a mismatch on the defensive end he played well. Miller escaping from him late really hurt though. JOB should have moved Hans over to Miller and either Hibbert on Scola ( who was in the game at that time ) or just put in Posey for him which he did.


Or put Posey on Miller.

Miller scored another three when Roy was on the bench. The solution was putting someone else on Miller on the perimeter.

We need Roy' scoring, rebounding, and shot blocking. Why would you put perhaps your best player on the bench? JOB is still JOB, and I'm gettin real tired of it.

Roy should never be benched at the end of games. Never.

tflo
11-12-2010, 10:41 PM
Darren Collison,0 ast. unexceptable

gknjr007
11-12-2010, 10:41 PM
what does tyler have to do to own the starting pf job. i mean he is better than josh overall, i cant help but to think how many loose balls he would have gotten that josh didnt. when josh was gaurding scola he was tripping over his own feet while tyler on the othehand played more solid. the josh experiment is over and it is time for tyler to take his rightful spot as starting pf.

BringJackBack
11-12-2010, 10:42 PM
Some of you guys are getting too emotional about this.. I have a riddle

What is 11 letter word that young teams don't have?

Consistency

The Bucks and Rockets games hurt a lot and all that.. but teams generally play better with their backs against the wall.. If people are going to flip chips about a game than lower your expectations.

We all know that Jim is going to do something that doesn't neccessarily make sense and we have to be ready for that as well. Roy should have been in for sure. He's our anchor. But we don't have any control over that.

And about the officiating.. It ****ed me off in the heat of the moment but by now we should be cooled off and understand that one of these games this season we will be favored by the officiating

I don't understand why everyone is so mad.. its not like last year when we were getting blown out every single game. This year we are competitive. If we win 39 games this season then we are not going to be this competitive every night. I guess I have to say get used to it. At least we didn't lose to the Rockets by 20 or something.

Bash me all you want but I am not making excuses. These are the same exact growing pains the Thunder went through two years ago (except they don't have to put up with Jim).

Just put this game behind us because we have to go into Cleveland tomorrow and win one. I hope.

Sookie
11-12-2010, 10:42 PM
I just disagree with that Kesty, at some point the "we're a young team" argument becomes just another excuse. There are other young teams that wouldn't have dropped both Bucks game and this game.

I think between the youth and dependence on jump shots (and the fact that, besides Posey, none of the vets know how to win...and Posey's not that great of a player) this isn't unexpected.

McKeyFan
11-12-2010, 10:43 PM
what does tyler have to do to own the starting pf job. i mean he is better than josh overall, i cant help but to think how many loose balls he would have gotten that josh didnt. when josh was gaurding scola he was tripping over his own feet while tyler on the othehand played more solid. the josh experiment is over and it is time for tyler to take his rightful spot as starting pf.
Yeah. Chances are, Hans get the ball during that scrap at the end of the game.

Trader Joe
11-12-2010, 10:44 PM
Both Hans and Josh had terrible games. Suggesting one played better than the other is just exposing which one you like more.

Trophy
11-12-2010, 10:44 PM
Some of you guys are getting too emotional about this.. I have a riddle

What is 11 letter word that young teams don't have?

Consistency

The Bucks and Rockets games hurt a lot and all that.. but teams generally play better with their backs against the wall.. If people are going to flip chips about a game than lower your expectations.

We all know that Jim is going to do something that doesn't neccessarily make sense and we have to be ready for that as well. Roy should have been in for sure. He's our anchor. But we don't have any control over that.

And about the officiating.. It ****ed me off in the heat of the moment but by now we should be cooled off and understand that one of these games this season we will be favored by the officiating

I don't understand why everyone is so mad.. its not like last year when we were getting blown out every single game. This year we are competitive. If we win 39 games this season then we are not going to be this competitive every night. I guess I have to say get used to it. At least we didn't lose to the Rockets by 20 or something.

Bash me all you want but I am not making excuses. These are the same exact growing pains the Thunder went through two years ago (except they don't have to put up with Jim).

Just put this game behind us because we have to go into Cleveland tomorrow and win one. I hope.

I agree 100%. This team cannot get into any kind of rhythm.

It's almost like they forget how to play basketball.

A major different that I saw tonight was the lack of players moving without the ball on offense.

The Rockets defense wasn't anything that our offense couldn't overcome and we made shots much harder than they should've.

Danny, Brandon, Darren, Tyler, and Josh must step up and be more consistent. They are far better players than they showed tonight.

Especially Danny who usually finishes with All-Star numbers and is an elite player. I'm still waiting for him to score over 20 points. For him last season, that was a piece of cake.

kester99
11-12-2010, 10:45 PM
I just disagree with that Kesty, at some point the "we're a young team" argument becomes just another excuse. There are other young teams that wouldn't have dropped both Bucks game and this game.

So, they would have dropped two other games they should have won.

We're also going to win games no one expects us to win this year, I expect.

DC was not running a very efficient offense tonight, Roy was taken advantage of by wily old Brad. I don't like it, but it's not going to be the last time either.

And like I say, there's going to be more highlight reels this year, too.

pwee31
11-12-2010, 10:47 PM
I had a gut feeling we would lose this game. Typical Pacers loss. Not much has changed over the years, just the faces.

jmoney2584
11-12-2010, 10:47 PM
We will never go anywhere with JOB as the coach. We never know what we have (players) because he plays random rotations with no thought whatsover.

I'm sure he had a thought, but it was just a really horrible one that doesn't make any sense. Probably came up with tonights game plan during a 15-minute self-love session while sitting on the crapper.

Anthem
11-12-2010, 10:47 PM
I'd like to document something, for the record. And this isn't emotional venting... I'm well aware that these plays didn't cost us the game.

But for a guy with a supposed high basketball IQ, Dunleavy makes some really brain-dead plays. I saw less than half the game, but there were two awful examples. The cross-court pass... did anyone in the building not think that would be picked off? Is there ever a right time to make that pass? No, there's not.

Then, the dribble-dribble-timeout thing. Nuff said.

I like Dunleavy a lot, but one of his least endearing traits is pretending that other people are at fault for his mistakes. Both of those stuck out to me because it was clear there wasn't anybody to blame but Junior.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled ranting about the coach.

ChristianDudley
11-12-2010, 10:48 PM
HUGE WTF to O'Brien benching Roy in the last few minutes. Can't he see that McBob FREAKING SUCKS and is about the worst thing other than maybe Solo we could have out there playing center? Sure Josh plays with energy and can grab some rebounds, but man...He is a terrible shooter, especially when he's the only 1 we're going to when trying to score. I can't believe Bird is putting up with O'Brien and his horrible coaching decisions in crunch time--Does he really approve of this?? I'll obviously keep being a Pacers fan, but Bird doesn't realize how many fans he has in disgust already this season. Bird needs to pony up and fire Jim ASAP...I still don't know what Larry sees in O'Brien as it will never get any better. The longer Jim stays, the longer it will take to get us to being a playoff team.

TheDon
11-12-2010, 10:48 PM
Sometimes I think we lose games at home cause players are extra motivated to get an interview with stacey paetz.

jmoney2584
11-12-2010, 10:51 PM
We are a very good team.

No, We are not.

Trophy
11-12-2010, 10:52 PM
No, We are not.

Yes we are when we play hard.

This is a very inconsistent where they are not very good at times.

graphic-er
11-12-2010, 10:55 PM
Some of you guys are getting too emotional about this.. I have a riddle

What is 11 letter word that young teams don't have?

Consistency

The Bucks and Rockets games hurt a lot and all that.. but teams generally play better with their backs against the wall.. If people are going to flip chips about a game than lower your expectations.

We all know that Jim is going to do something that doesn't neccessarily make sense and we have to be ready for that as well. Roy should have been in for sure. He's our anchor. But we don't have any control over that.

And about the officiating.. It ****ed me off in the heat of the moment but by now we should be cooled off and understand that one of these games this season we will be favored by the officiating

I don't understand why everyone is so mad.. its not like last year when we were getting blown out every single game. This year we are competitive. If we win 39 games this season then we are not going to be this competitive every night. I guess I have to say get used to it. At least we didn't lose to the Rockets by 20 or something.

Bash me all you want but I am not making excuses. These are the same exact growing pains the Thunder went through two years ago (except they don't have to put up with Jim).

Just put this game behind us because we have to go into Cleveland tomorrow and win one. I hope.

You make a good point, i think the frustration is justified though. If you are competitive the whole game even while you are playing like crap and you are with in striking distance to puling out a win, then its pretty frustrating. Especially when you can probably count a 10 pt swing the refs took away from the Pacers.

Personally I am tired of having Hibbert getting the ball above the free throw line. Nobody cuts on this team anyways to take advantage of Hibbert's vision. I'd rather see him bang it out down low. Its not like Houston had anyone who could guard him with consistency. Again we see the wisdom of JOB. The tallest player in the league is out, so lets not try and exploit our height and size down low. JOB might be the worst coach in the league.

Also I'm tired of seeing Danny dribble into 2 defenders to take a step back jumper, dude need to realize that if defenders are looking at you then somebody else is open.

BringJackBack
11-12-2010, 10:55 PM
No, We are not.

Terrible paraphrasing skills. Took the point Trophy was trying to make way out of context.

Realistically, if we had a common sense coach, we are a .500 team. As young as we are, that is good. We need some middle ground and not either "Pac3rzz suckorzz" and "55 wins".

Kamiyohk
11-12-2010, 10:56 PM
Rotation, so we lose the game again
posey +md +granger + collison
You just put 3 shooters and 1 point guard on the court
no defense, no rebound
and one time u just can take 1 shot(u make 2/3 points? others make 2/3, u miss the shot? they still can make the shot because pacers poor defense)
once again, we lose to bucks and houston because the rotation

PacerHound
11-12-2010, 10:57 PM
:( We missed Hansbrough tonight through no fault of his own. He got around 11 minutes tonight but in 3 shifts if I am correct. Never in long enough at a time to get it going. Give him enough minutes and good things are going to happen. My opinion only but I think to win consistently Tyler is going to have to get major minutes (25 to 30).

I did not understand the players we had in in the last 5 minutes. We had I believe it was 4 long distance shooters in but no one inside who could score (no Hansbrough or Hibbert). McRoberts is not an inside scorer. Posey played well but he plays like Murphy at the 3 point line.

Hansbrough's shot may or may not have been off. I hate to say because a guy starts out 0 for 3 it means his shooting is off. He hit his only shot in the approx. 2 minutes he was in in the 4th. I have seen guys go crazy from one half to the second half. Seemed like we decided we were going to go exclusively with 3 point shooters to win the game. It didn't work.

pwee31
11-12-2010, 11:00 PM
I much as I like McRoberts, he's not a starting PF, and would be a much better option coming off the bench.

Nice to see Posey hit 3's, hope he continues to do so b/c we can expect less Hansbrough now.

Brad Miller hitting his jump shot was a disaster match-up for Roy and really takes away his defensive effectiveness.

Yao out = loss with Brad Miller hitting jump shots and taking advantage of his pump fake

Hoop
11-12-2010, 11:01 PM
7 games, 7 completely different and random rotations. Not one hint of continuity.

That's the only consistent thing that has happened under you know who.

Noodle
11-12-2010, 11:01 PM
This is a very young team with pieces still trying to fit together. We're going to see stuff like this all year (and would even if your favorite all-time coach was our coach).

And the refs didn't help. But there you go.

No doubt, I came away enjoying this game. I thought we played well, and loved the fight and intensity of the team. Some players were off their game tonight, but that's the nature of the game. I never once asked myself why the coach did this or that.

Hibbert got exposed by Miller tonight on the pick-and-roll. Thus, he was benched in favor of McRoberts who could actually guard that play.

If anything, I agree with Kester99. The officiating struck me as very poor and in favor of the visiting team. We got disrespected a litte on our very own home court. I guess that the team will have to fight like this every night to earn respect and benefit of a doubt from the officials, and if they fight like this every night they will earn my respect along with others too. Win or lose, the team can excel sooner than later when they break the fight out like they did tonight. The Rockets hit many tough shots that made the difference. A few of those don't drop... Well it's a little different story and very happy outcome then isn't it.

Sookie
11-12-2010, 11:01 PM
I much as I like McRoberts, he's not a starting PF, and would be a much better option coming off the bench.

Nice to see Posey hit 3's, hope he continues to do so b/c we can expect less Hansbrough now.

Brad Miller hitting his jump shot was a disaster match-up for Roy and really takes away his defensive effectiveness.

Yao out = loss with Brad Miller hitting jump shots and taking advantage of his pump fake

We need Hans in the second unit, and Josh is much more of a starting PF than Posey.

And besides, we all knew Hans/Josh were going to struggle against Scola. And quite frankly, despite the lack of points, they played as well as Ford/Collison did..and those two went up against Lowry and third string rookie..

BringJackBack
11-12-2010, 11:03 PM
Another thing that I would like to point out is... I can't wait to see the tweets tomorrow by both the players and Mike Wells.

Lance George
11-12-2010, 11:05 PM
We need Hans in the second unit

I'm beginning to suspect that this is little more than a convenient excuse by McBob fans to justify keeping him as the starter.

jmoney2584
11-12-2010, 11:05 PM
Terrible paraphrasing skills. Took the point Trophy was trying to make way out of context.

Realistically, if we had a common sense coach, we are a .500 team. As young as we are, that is good. We need some middle ground and not either "Pac3rzz suckorzz" and "55 wins".

I was simply highlighting an untrue statemement within his post. I didn't take anything out of context. His words were "We are a very good team." Fact of the matter is, it doesn't matter what else was said, that statement isn't true. I said nothing else regarding any other part of his post. The excerpt that I chose simply isn't true. Thanks though.

Also, I am speaking in regards to this current juncture in time. RIGHT NOW...we are NOT a good team. The coach is a part of the team. Our coach happens to be horrible. Saying "if" we had this, or "if" we had that doesn't matter...becuase we don't.

Eleazar
11-12-2010, 11:07 PM
I know Posey had a good shooting day, but is it just me or does the team just play worse when Posey plays a lot of minutes? it might just be me, but there is more to this sport than scoring points, and just because Hansbrough isn't shooting well (which is debatable when he only took 4 shots) the other aspects of his game that he brings just makes the team play better than what Posey brings.

Trophy
11-12-2010, 11:08 PM
I was simply highlighting an untrue statemement within his post. I didn't take anything out of context. His words were "We are a very good team." Fact of the matter is, it doesn't matter what else was said, that statement isn't true. I said nothing else regarding any other part of his post. The excerpt that I chose simply isn't true. Thanks though.

Yes, but you failed to read the rest of my statement that clearly didn't just say we're a very good team.

You must like to jump the gun and get to your own opinion instead of reading the rest of the statement that explains why I said we're a good team.

We are a good team WHEN WE PLAY HARD.

There is no way we were a good team tonight. We're not always a good team.

Lance George
11-12-2010, 11:08 PM
By the way, Paul George got his first DNP-CD of the young season.

jmoney2584
11-12-2010, 11:08 PM
Another thing that I would like to point out is... I can't wait to see the tweets tomorrow by both the players and Mike Wells.

I second this. Will they be ballsy enough to comment or will they opt for a shameful silence?

Noodle
11-12-2010, 11:10 PM
We are a good team WHEN WE PLAY HARD.

I thought we did. That Houston team played pretty good too.

tflo
11-12-2010, 11:10 PM
Darren Collison is not the future point guard of this team.0 ast is completley unexceptable.

Trophy
11-12-2010, 11:11 PM
I thought we did. That Houston team played pretty good too.

For both sides, the game was very sloppy.

BringJackBack
11-12-2010, 11:12 PM
By the way, Paul George got his first DNP-CD of the young season.

His minutes have steadily gone down every single game this season. While it is not a huge deal, I love watching George play so it somewhat saddens me.

xBulletproof
11-12-2010, 11:14 PM
As a whole some of you seem upset like you couldn't see this coming from a mile away. Houston is better than a 1-6 team, and we're not nearly as good as we showed against Denver.

Law of averages. Pretty simple. Not a big deal.

Sookie
11-12-2010, 11:14 PM
By the way, Paul George got his first DNP-CD of the young season.

Him and Roy looked mutinous on the bench at the end of the game. Whispering to each other and then lookig at JOB.. ;) (...okay..I'm only semi-joking)

gknjr007
11-12-2010, 11:15 PM
Both Hans and Josh had terrible games. Suggesting one played better than the other is just exposing which one you like more.

You are right, i do like tyler a little more, but i do want both to do well. Which ever one hepls my pacers win ball game. Tyler gives us the best chance. About them both having bad games, Tyler has a better chance at overcoming that with his nonstop motor and hustling ability. You can negate the things josh does well like his atheletisism and shot blocking, by getting in his head or getting him in foul trouble. If tyler is in foul trouble he will play like hes not and a little bit smarter. Tyler gets into the heads of our opponents, just ask Stephen Jackson. Bottomline, this is how i see it, josh MAY stop us from losing a game but tyler WILL make us win one. ITS TYLER HANSBROUGHS TURN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trophy
11-12-2010, 11:16 PM
I hate losses. They put a damper on everyone and there's such a negative atmosphere on PD.

Losses just completely ruin my night and until the next game.

We have to win tomorrow night. Cleveland is a team we can easily beat, but we can't take it easy. They're a professional team too. I don't care if it's in Cleveland, nothing about the game is harder that we can't win away from Indy.

We need to do our best to stay at .500 so that's why the game is a must win.

jmoney2584
11-12-2010, 11:17 PM
Yes, but you failed to read the rest of my statement that clearly didn't just say we're a very good team.

You must like to jump the gun and get to your own opinion instead of reading the rest of the statement that explains why I said we're a good team.

We are a good team WHEN WE PLAY HARD.

There is no way we were a good team tonight. We're not always a good team.

Then you contradicted yourself and I'm glad you brought that to my attention. Anyway, let's not get all up in arms with eachother. We have a difference in opinion but we are all here for the same reason. I think we can be a really good team once we get some consistency, but that comes with experience and a coach who can set about some STRUCTURE. The players have to learn to trust eachother, but imagine how hard that must be when you don't know whos going to play with you one game to the next, or if you yourself will even play. Players probably fear trusting others bc it might come back on them somehow and then they are riding the pine for a few games, getting called out by the coach for (insert random negative thing JOB has to say in regards to why player X isn't "in the rotation).

Noodle
11-12-2010, 11:19 PM
For both sides, the game was very sloppy.

Pacers shot 45% and the Rockets 50%. Both teams had 15 turnovers and 41 rebounds. We missed more shots and claimed a +2 advantage on the offensive glass to make up for it. The Pacers shared the ball better with a 20 to 17 assist advantage. Down the stretch, Brad freaking Miller killed Roy, and the Pacers couldn't buy a shooting foul. It was sloppy, but a entertaining. It was a war, and if I had no allegiances to either team, I would have enjoyed that last quarter as a basketball a NBA fan in general.

jmoney2584
11-12-2010, 11:21 PM
I hate losses. They put a damper on everyone and there's such a negative atmosphere on PD.

Losses just completely ruin my night and until the next game.

We have to win tomorrow night. Cleveland is a team we can easily beat, but we can't take it easy. They're a professional team too. I don't care if it's in Cleveland, nothing about the game is harder that we can't win away from Indy.

We need to do our best to stay at .500 so that's why the game is a must win.

Dude me too. I hate it. I am angry until the night before a game, then I put on my blue and gold glasses and get ready to watch. After a loss though...phew, leave me alone unless you want the wrath.

kester99
11-12-2010, 11:21 PM
Pacers shot 45% and the Rockets 50%. Both teams had 15 turnovers and 41 rebounds. We missed more shots and claimed a +2 advantage on the offensive glass to make up for it. The Pacers shared the ball better with a 20 to 17 assist advantage. Down the stretch, Brad freaking Miller killed Roy, and the Pacers couldn't buy a shooting foul. It was sloppy, but a entertaining. It was a war, and if I had no allegiances to either team, I would have enjoyed that last quarter as a basketball a NBA fan in general.

You're not overreacting very well.

Noodle
11-12-2010, 11:21 PM
Him and Roy looked mutinous on the bench at the end of the game. Whispering to each other and then lookig at JOB.. ;) (...okay..I'm only semi-joking)

Yeah right, I'm sure they have 1000 times the respect for Jim than you do.

Sookie
11-12-2010, 11:22 PM
I'm beginning to suspect that this is little more than a convenient excuse by McBob fans to justify keeping him as the starter.

If Hans isn't in the second unit, who in the second unit is going to score consistently?

I like them both, and don't favor either. Two weeks ago, I thought Josh was better, I'm not sure right now. But I know that Hans is most certainly a better scorer, and that's needed in the second unit. If Hans is outplaying Josh, then he should finish the game...there's no slight there.

Sookie
11-12-2010, 11:23 PM
Yeah right, I'm sure they have 1000 times the respect for Jim than you do.

It was a joke. I said semi-joking, because they were talking together on the end of the bench, looking unhappy. I thought the smiley would let people know I wasn't serious..

Day-V
11-12-2010, 11:25 PM
While I know the team is partly to blame, coming home from Conseco and sitting here still fuming, all I can say is, "MAN, those refs ****ed us over tonight!"


I'm sure I'll regain my composure by tomorrow but man, that was ****ing brutal.

jmoney2584
11-12-2010, 11:29 PM
I think Paul Georges athleticism and defense could have been extremely useful in this game. He should never get a DNP-CD, NEVER. By all accounts he works his butt off and it doesn't do much for his confidence to sit him. He is a rookie for crying out loud, he is going to have ups and downs (though I think his defense has been fairly consistent and certainly above average for a rookie). I hate JOBs unwillingness to play the younger kids. I can't wait for next year. I've been wanting to go to a game so bad this year, but games like this take that out of me. Last thing I want is to go to a game and get as upset in public as I do at home. This team really rips my heart out. The past few years especially...I have hope for this years team, but so far it's been a blueprint of the past few years. Beat a good team, follow it up by offering your sphincter to a bad team. ugly.

Noodle
11-12-2010, 11:33 PM
It was a joke. I said semi-joking, because they were talking together on the end of the bench, looking unhappy.

Don't stop at any length to take a low blow at Jim. I think we understand the fact that you hate Jim, and I respect that opinion. The truth of the matter is that Jim didn't cost us the game. He didn't play Solo or Dayntay, a plus in my book, and Posey played way better than George has all year. In fact, Posey was the only guy that could guard Scola tonight. That is why Hansbrough spent time on the pine. I approve of the rotations, timely time-outs and overall approach. The team was never stagnant, and we fought hard.

BlueNGold
11-12-2010, 11:33 PM
I thought the Pacers played well. Last year, the Rockets would have demolished us under the same circumstances.

We are below .500, but I still enjoyed the game...

Shade
11-12-2010, 11:37 PM
None of us should be surprised by this loss, just as none of us should be surprised when it continues to happen again and again and again, just as it has during Jim's entire tenure. His system relies too heavily on an unpredictable variable, which is why we can beat or be beaten by any team on a given night. That's why I can't stand his system; there's no consistency. This is not good basketball.

Arcaneknight
11-12-2010, 11:38 PM
I'd like to document something, for the record. And this isn't emotional venting... I'm well aware that these plays didn't cost us the game.

But for a guy with a supposed high basketball IQ, Dunleavy makes some really brain-dead plays. I saw less than half the game, but there were two awful examples. The cross-court pass... did anyone in the building not think that would be picked off? Is there ever a right time to make that pass? No, there's not.

Then, the dribble-dribble-timeout thing. Nuff said.

I like Dunleavy a lot, but one of his least endearing traits is pretending that other people are at fault for his mistakes. Both of those stuck out to me because it was clear there wasn't anybody to blame but Junior.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled ranting about the coach.

Thats an easy mistake to make when your thinking lets get the ball up the court while the defense isn't set and then you hear JOB yell timeout. Dunleavy does have a great bball iq, but by no means is he perfect.

Sookie
11-12-2010, 11:39 PM
Don't stop at any length to take a low blow at Jim. I think we understand the fact that you hate Jim, and I respect that opinion. The truth of the matter is that Jim didn't cost us the game. He didn't play Solo or Dayntay, a plus in my book, and Posey played way better than George has all year. In fact, Posey was the only guy that could guard Scola tonight. That is why Hansbrough spent time on the pine. I approve of the rotations, timely time-outs and overall approach. The team was never stagnant, and we fought hard.

Besides not playing Hibbert at the end, I actually didn't think he was bad. And he went with Collison at the end, which I feel is more important, anyway. He went with the guys playing well..even though it's a different rotation. There's a reason I didn't say much in the game thread. This game was lost because our offense wasn't run well tonight. That's on the players.

Noodle
11-12-2010, 11:41 PM
Agreed

odeez
11-12-2010, 11:44 PM
A disappointing loss to say the least. We still had a chance to get a win in the end, but couldn't get any stops when needed. We make too many mistakes and lack any kind of consistancy on both ends. That includes the ever changing lineups of JOB. The sad thing is this is most likely what we are going to see for the rest of the year.

Noodle
11-12-2010, 11:44 PM
You're not overreacting very well.

...and I thought to myself after the game...Wow, what a game. I wonder if the PD world is as pleased as I am...Should I be shocked that one of the first statements was ""We will never go anywhere with JOB as the coach. We never know what we have (players) because he plays random rotations with no thought whatsover." -oxxo :rolleyes:

pacer4ever
11-12-2010, 11:45 PM
What were we trying to do the last play. Was there another option besides Danny??? Just a very poor looking play by the players.

owl
11-12-2010, 11:52 PM
Houston played good defense and it was able to shut down the motion offense. That plus it turned the Pacers into a jump shoooting team and usually that means a loss.
Houston has more veteran frontcourt players than the Pacers. The Pacers finally started
turning up the defensive pressure but not soon enough. Pacers need more strength and
size inside.

pwee31
11-12-2010, 11:59 PM
We need Hans in the second unit, and Josh is much more of a starting PF than Posey.

And besides, we all knew Hans/Josh were going to struggle against Scola. And quite frankly, despite the lack of points, they played as well as Ford/Collison did..and those two went up against Lowry and third string rookie..

I disagree. I think Hansbrough would do a lot in the starting lineup. For one he brings energy every time he is on the floor. He's also a player that the opposing team has to guard, and as we've seen.. he's a solid defender himself.

McRoberts doesn't seem to bring the same emotion as he did when he came off the bench last year. He's getting into foul trouble early, and is really a non factor besides a few rebounds and passes here or there. There's no doubt in my mind he can have the same production as a bench player that's he's having now as a starter

While I feel Hansbrough's production would only go up with starters minutes, and not having to look over his shoulder every time he makes a mistake

Trophy
11-13-2010, 12:01 AM
Just a random fact, but we snapped our 4 game win streak to Houston.

Oh well, you can't win everything. We need to let this game go and go out and play hard and win in our next games.

Smoothdave1
11-13-2010, 12:02 AM
Tough loss and I thought that J-Mac and DC looked pretty bad and sloppy.

The highlight was meeting El Pacero as I walked into Conseco as he and I got to chat for a few minutes from the parking lot to the front of Conseco.

kester99
11-13-2010, 12:04 AM
...and I thought to myself after the game...Wow, what a game. I wonder if the PD world is as pleased as I am...Should I be shocked that one of the first statements was ""We will never go anywhere with JOB as the coach. We never know what we have (players) because he plays random rotations with no thought whatsover." -oxxo :rolleyes:

Potapenko's only job is to flip coins on the sidelines.

"Vitaly! What are we doing?!"

"Heads, Jim!"

"Posey! Get in there!"

Trophy
11-13-2010, 12:05 AM
I thought the Pacers played well. Last year, the Rockets would have demolished us under the same circumstances.

We are below .500, but I still enjoyed the game...

It was a fun game and it was close the whole team with many lead changes and ties, but the outcome was bad.

Chase Budinger is such an underrated player, IMO. You must be all over that guy in order for him to miss.

I was very surprised Brad Miller had such a big scoring game and he knocked down 3-3 three pointers which isn't typically something he brings on a nightly basis.

pwee31
11-13-2010, 12:09 AM
I hate losses. They put a damper on everyone and there's such a negative atmosphere on PD.

Losses just completely ruin my night and until the next game.

We have to win tomorrow night. Cleveland is a team we can easily beat, but we can't take it easy. They're a professional team too. I don't care if it's in Cleveland, nothing about the game is harder that we can't win away from Indy.

We need to do our best to stay at .500 so that's why the game is a must win.

What makes Cleveland an easy team to beat? They have a better record than us, a better coach than us, and without Lebron they're playing as a team. Yeah we may have the better players, but that doesn't matter if your players aren't playing together or aren't being used the correct way.

O'Brien's offense is great when you have wide open shots and are knocking them down at a high rate. Other than that, there's really no plan B

Trophy
11-13-2010, 12:19 AM
What makes Cleveland an easy team to beat? They have a better record than us, a better coach than us, and without Lebron they're playing as a team. Yeah we may have the better players, but that doesn't matter if your players aren't playing together or aren't being used the correct way.

O'Brien's offense is great when you have wide open shots and are knocking them down at a high rate. Other than that, there's really no plan B

Cleveland is actually playing extremely hard and I credit them for that. I think it has a lot to with Byron Scott bringing the key players they have together.

I should've worded it better, we can't go out there and expect Cleveland to be bad because they really don't have any star players. I think that's what teams believe when they play Cleveland and Cleveland surprises them.

We have a huge advantage at SF so I'm expecting a big game from Danny. The center and PG matchup should be interesting to see as well as the Josh-Tyler vs. JJ Hickson PF matchup. All 3 guys play pretty similar.

Unclebuck
11-13-2010, 12:20 AM
I have only read a few of the posts in this thread, and I'm sure many are complaining about which players were in the game at the end.

Collison - i assume no one had any problem with him being in
Granger -I assume no one had any problems with him being in
Dunleavy was having a good game, he needed to be in their
Posey - if it weren't for him the pacers are out of the game and would have ben blown out
I think maybe the only debatable player was Josh over Roy. but after brad drove around Roy all night and hit a couple of threes, I think Roy had to be taken out, he was making Brad look like a superstar

So I think the correct 5 were in the game.

Rockets defense played us in a way that causes us huge problems. they got up into us, pressured the ballhandler made everything tought.

I think Collison needed to do more at the end of the game

Pacers are going to be inconsistant at least until late in the season, they are young, have several new players

PaceBalls
11-13-2010, 12:27 AM
He should have stuck with Roy. He is your future star center. You stick with him. Is Brad Miller draining 3pters all night really Roy's fault? Someone make a switch or something.

Gamble1
11-13-2010, 12:29 AM
Pacers are going to be inconsistant at least until late in the season, they are young, have several new players
You might be right but I'll be the first to say that we can't just use that excuse every year. We have to improve or there is no point in playing.

kester99
11-13-2010, 12:34 AM
We will improve, continued health granted...JOB has been saying that by the last part of the season we should be clicking on all cylinders, and if I think of other young teams I've seen in my life, that sounds about right. It's going to be a roller coaster until then, though.

So...do I expect to see us beat Cleveland tomorrow? No. Do I think we can? Heck, yes.

jmoney2584
11-13-2010, 12:44 AM
We will improve, continued health granted...JOB has been saying that by the last part of the season we should be clicking on all cylinders, and if I think of other young teams I've seen in my life, that sounds about right. It's going to be a roller coaster until then, though.

So...do I expect to see us beat Cleveland tomorrow? No. Do I think we can? Heck, yes.

I THINK we can beat any team when we are playing well. Through the first 7 games I had positive expectations...not anymore. Positive expectations result in too much pain when you follow this team. It's going to be awhile before we can comfortably have good expectations regarding this team.

I love this team too much though, it's my curse to care so much, only to have it thrown in my face.

Unclebuck
11-13-2010, 12:55 AM
You might be right but I'll be the first to say that we can't just use that excuse every year. We have to improve or there is no point in playing.

They do improve - every year in March, they play well.

Mackey_Rose
11-13-2010, 12:57 AM
Apparently I watched an entirely different game than most of you.

We did not lose because Hibbert got pulled at the end of the game. Hibbert had a horrible game. Brad Miller absolutely destroyed him. His defense was atrocious. If anything he should have played less. I don't care how good he plays offensively, (which I didn't think was that great anyway) if he lets an old Brad Miller beat him that badly he is a liability. And that elbow was nothing more than a dirty play, should not be excused.

We did not lose because Hansbrough didn't start and get the minutes that Josh played. Neither one of them played well, and in my opinion, all these calls for Tyler to get Josh's starting position based on this game are (as usual) totally without merit, and coming mainly from the pro-UNC crowd that seems to inhabit this place. What did he do so well that makes anyone thinks he earned a starting role tonight? I didn't see it. He helps the team more off the bench, why is that hard to understand?

We did not lose because the refs beat us. They sucked, but that is no excuse for losing that game to that team. The end of the game was horrible, that is true. Josh got a technical for getting fouled, and then Granger got molested by Battier multiple times on the same possession, but we should have been able to put them away before that.

We lost because Granger played like 2009 Danny again. When he plays like that, we are a terrible team. His shot selection was again just horrible. Several of the shots he made were not good shots. He made a few good plays and got the rim a couple times, but more often than not, he was awful. As bad as his shot selection was, his defense may have been worse. He doesn't exert any effort on that end at all. If your best player won't do it, how do you expect the rest of the team to do it? If Granger isn't going to ever be a vocal leader, fine, but if he won't lead on the court either, he can't be a guy you build around.

We lost because our perimeter defenders cannot stay in front of anybody. When Ish Smith and Kyle Lowry can dribble to any spot on the court that they want at will, we are in big, big trouble. That wasn't Rondo or Steve Nash out there. That was Ish Smith and Kyle Lowry!! Collison needs to work harder on defense. I expect Kevin Martin to light us up when he's going against Dunleavy, but for Smith and Lowry to abuse Collison and Ford so badly is just ridiculous.

When your top three players are Granger, Hibbert, and Collison, more often than not you are going to be up against it in the NBA. Tonight we weren't. We should have had a huge advantage, but when those three all play horribly, we don't stand a chance. I understand liking certain players more than others, I'm guilty of it too, but I like the Pacers first and foremost. Don't get blinded by your personal feelings about players and ignore when they struggle the way those three did, especially on the defensive end.

Mackey_Rose
11-13-2010, 12:59 AM
He should have stuck with Roy. He is your future star center. You stick with him. Is Brad Miller draining 3pters all night really Roy's fault? Someone make a switch or something.

Of course it was Roy's fault! He wasn't even close to him! Brad has been hitting those shots for years. He can't just totally get lost like that.

And when Roy did get close enough to contest, Brad (not exactly world renowned for his first step and quickness) went around him like he was wearing concrete shoes.

vnzla81
11-13-2010, 01:12 AM
And that is why Lowry is an all star....................... oh wait

graphic-er
11-13-2010, 01:19 AM
Apparently I watched an entirely different game than most of you.

We did not lose because Hibbert got pulled at the end of the game. Hibbert had a horrible game. Brad Miller absolutely destroyed him. His defense was atrocious. If anything he should have played less. I don't care how good he plays offensively, (which I didn't think was that great anyway) if he lets an old Brad Miller beat him that badly he is a liability. And that elbow was nothing more than a dirty play, should not be excused.

We did not lose because Hansbrough didn't start and get the minutes that Josh played. Neither one of them played well, and in my opinion, all these calls for Tyler to get Josh's starting position based on this game are (as usual) totally without merit, and coming mainly from the pro-UNC crowd that seems to inhabit this place. What did he do so well that makes anyone thinks he earned a starting role tonight? I didn't see it. He helps the team more off the bench, why is that hard to understand?

We did not lose because the refs beat us. They sucked, but that is no excuse for losing that game to that team. The end of the game was horrible, that is true. Josh got a technical for getting fouled, and then Granger got molested by Battier multiple times on the same possession, but we should have been able to put them away before that.

We lost because Granger played like 2009 Danny again. When he plays like that, we are a terrible team. His shot selection was again just horrible. Several of the shots he made were not good shots. He made a few good plays and got the rim a couple times, but more often than not, he was awful. As bad as his shot selection was, his defense may have been worse. He doesn't exert any effort on that end at all. If your best player won't do it, how do you expect the rest of the team to do it? If Granger isn't going to ever be a vocal leader, fine, but if he won't lead on the court either, he can't be a guy you build around.

We lost because our perimeter defenders cannot stay in front of anybody. When Ish Smith and Kyle Lowry can dribble to any spot on the court that they want at will, we are in big, big trouble. That wasn't Rondo or Steve Nash out there. That was Ish Smith and Kyle Lowry!! Collison needs to work harder on defense. I expect Kevin Martin to light us up when he's going against Dunleavy, but for Smith and Lowry to abuse Collison and Ford so badly is just ridiculous.

When your top three players are Granger, Hibbert, and Collison, more often than not you are going to be up against it in the NBA. Tonight we weren't. We should have had a huge advantage, but when those three all play horribly, we don't stand a chance. I understand liking certain players more than others, I'm guilty of it too, but I like the Pacers first and foremost. Don't get blinded by your personal feelings about players and ignore when they struggle the way those three did, especially on the defensive end.

I tend to agree with everything you say here. Danny dribbled into double teams and took a step back jumper, and he took several jumpers where he didn't even dribble the ball...just chose to shoot it over his man with a hand in his face. That's Stephan Jackson right there. ISO pump fake a couple times, launch the jumper with a hand in your face.

But the officials did cause about a 10 pt differential with their terrible calls. The phantom foul on Scola in the 4th made by the back side ref who didn't even see it, and not corrected by the baseline ref who was looking right at it. The foul on a driving Brad Miller when Granger made a terrific defensive play, and Miller flopped like Tonya Harding came out and crushed his knee caps. The silly technical on McRoberts. Then the myriad of no calls that took away Free Throw attempts.

It can not be said enough that the Pacers did not go inside enough, when you have Yao Ming out of the game, you have to go inside and exploit that.

oxxo
11-13-2010, 01:39 AM
...and I thought to myself after the game...Wow, what a game. I wonder if the PD world is as pleased as I am...Should I be shocked that one of the first statements was ""We will never go anywhere with JOB as the coach. We never know what we have (players) because he plays random rotations with no thought whatsover." -oxxo :rolleyes:

You don't think that JOB throwing DNPs around and jerking players minutes around from 0 to 10 to 30 to 10 to 0 to 20 minutes randomly doesn't affect them? There's a reason most coaches out there don't do it.

JOB's systems and rotations suck. They don't put our players in a position to win. They don't allow them to develop roles or confidence.

I was behind him for the first couple years or so, just like I am with anyone that joins the team... but when a team is as erratic as the Pacers have been the past couple of years there is no one to blame but the coach.

Basketball Fan
11-13-2010, 01:40 AM
Watching a Pacers game is like Groundhog's day the same thing over and over again.

We look really good get a lead looks like we'll win the game then we let the other team come back to beat us.

Sookie
11-13-2010, 01:41 AM
I actually really disagree about Danny.

I thought he played better than anyone else, besides Posey tonight, and Danny had one of the best defenders in the NBA on him.

I think people remember the end of the game a bit too much, and it's really not Danny's fault. Danny isn't great at getting his own shot, so just giving him the ball at the top of the key and saying "GO" is going to end up in a poor shot..especially since at that point defenders are going to be paying extra attention to him.

Trophy
11-13-2010, 01:50 AM
Danny is still a very good elite shooter and player.

The reason why he hasn't been scoring big like he did all of last season is because he might trust his teammates more than he did last season to score.

Danny doesn't have to be held responsible for all of the scoring inside and outside. He finally has some help.

pacer4ever
11-13-2010, 01:51 AM
I actually really disagree about Danny.

I thought he played better than anyone else, besides Posey tonight, and Danny had one of the best defenders in the NBA on him.

I think people remember the end of the game a bit too much, and it's really not Danny's fault. Danny isn't great at getting his own shot, so just giving him the ball at the top of the key and saying "GO" is going to end up in a poor shot..especially since at that point defenders are going to be paying extra attention to him.

Ya he played good i cant understand why we called that last play. We should have tried to have other options not just Danny iso we should have set a screen for a shooter. We would have got a much better look that way. Also why did we take him out when he was on fire. To just sub him back 3mins later then he missed a couple st8 shots in a row i just dont get it. You should leave a player in there when he is hot.

Psycho T
11-13-2010, 01:58 AM
Both Hans and Josh had terrible games. Suggesting one played better than the other is just exposing which one you like more.

I would take my chances with Tyler getting 30 minutes over McBob. McBob had no business being on the floor in the 4th Q after his showing the first 3 Qs.

Jon Theodore
11-13-2010, 02:08 AM
Danny is still a very good elite shooter and player.

The reason why he hasn't been scoring big like he did all of last season is because he might trust his teammates more than he did last season to score.

Danny doesn't have to be held responsible for all of the scoring inside and outside. He finally has some help.

There has been more times that Danny has launched an ill advised shot, than here has been times he has passed the ball to an open teammate. Do you watch the games?

Danny is not scoring because teams are focusing there defense on him. In years past Granger was semi "under the radar." Now everybody knows the guy can shoot, and they are shutting him down. He is frustrated but he doesn't have the tools to beat the defense. HE is basically a glorified version of Eddie House that can play great defense when he decides he wants too.

Psycho T
11-13-2010, 02:38 AM
We did not lose because Hansbrough didn't start and get the minutes that Josh played. Neither one of them played well, and in my opinion, all these calls for Tyler to get Josh's starting position based on this game are (as usual) totally without merit, and coming mainly from the pro-UNC crowd that seems to inhabit this place. What did he do so well that makes anyone thinks he earned a starting role tonight? I didn't see it. He helps the team more off the bench, why is that hard to understand?



What exactly has McBob done to warrant being the starter? He fell into the position last year after injuries. The Pacers are the only team in the NBA that would give McBob 30 minutes in a single game. I would say he would be back to being the 12th man on over half of the teams in the league if not more.

McBob does not deserve to start or even get 30 minutes.

His rebounding ability is also Murhpy-esque.

His defense consists of getting a help side block every now and then. Or getting toasted one on one.

If he aint getting an alley-oop he cant score.

Hasnt made a single free throw this year. And has ONLY shot like 5 of them.

Thinks he never commits a foul " What did I do? " " I didnt do anything ".ect.

Tyler brings more to the table.. Its that simple. He also works better with the starters and you want your best 5 on the floor together.

Last night Hans played solid defense in the 11 minutes he was on the floor. Something McBob didnt do for even 30 seconds.

Bball
11-13-2010, 02:39 AM
None of us should be surprised by this loss, just as none of us should be surprised when it continues to happen again and again and again, just as it has during Jim's entire tenure. His system relies too heavily on an unpredictable variable, which is why we can beat or be beaten by any team on a given night. That's why I can't stand his system; there's no consistency. This is not good basketball.

For everyone talking about the Pacers' lack of consistency Shade has the answer: Play at a pace with some semblance of structure that allows the team to develop some consistency.

Hicks
11-13-2010, 02:42 AM
Jim said to my face (well, technically just off to the side of me, and specifically to Gnome's face) that this was the year we didn't 'match down' to small ball, and this was the year that we made teams match up to us, and this was the year Roy finished games.

Took 7 games to be false.

If I wasn't already so jaded, I'd be tempted to have an "I'm done" thread of my own, vowing to wait this out until a new coach comes in.

Before anyone says it, no, I don't feel this way simply because of tonight. It was just another in a long line of straws being stacked on my back.

Taterhead
11-13-2010, 02:53 AM
Because Brad Miller was eating his lunch?

Are you serious? This is the NBA, guys have good games. Roy had a pretty descent one going himself. You don't take your 2nd best player out because a guy has a good game on him.

I can't believe there are people who continue to defend Jim O'brien CRUSHING our young players confidence repeatedly with his ridiculous crap.

This dude has got to go. There is a reason he is a career loser as a head coach with a sub .500 winning percentage despite coaching some pretty talented teams.

kester99
11-13-2010, 02:56 AM
If I thought O'Brien had a rule that said any player would always finish games, regardless of any factor, I'd want him fired, too.

If you make a decision to play Posey on Scola because he's the most effective at defending him, AND Posey's hitting shots, and you go with McBob defending Miller during some part of the game because he's more effective than Roy....well I don't see the big gripe here.

I can see the argument that Roy should be in regardless of his defensive liability because his better offense (than Josh) would outweigh the deficiency. I can see that. It's valid speculation. But I don't see it as a no-brainer, just a judgement call with validity on both sides of the issue.

He could have put Solomon in on Miller, you know?

righteouscool
11-13-2010, 02:59 AM
There has been more times that Danny has launched an ill advised shot, than here has been times he has passed the ball to an open teammate. Do you watch the games?

Danny is not scoring because teams are focusing there defense on him. In years past Granger was semi "under the radar." Now everybody knows the guy can shoot, and they are shutting him down. He is frustrated but he doesn't have the tools to beat the defense. HE is basically a glorified version of Eddie House that can play great defense when he decides he wants too.

Really? Because anytime he touches the ball and drives he is AT LEAST doubled. I wish I had league pass so I could screenshot this.

Mackey_Rose
11-13-2010, 04:15 AM
What exactly has McBob done to warrant being the starter? He fell into the position last year after injuries. The Pacers are the only team in the NBA that would give McBob 30 minutes in a single game. I would say he would be back to being the 12th man on over half of the teams in the league if not more.

It seems weird to me that this is what we are again talking about this after Hansbrough also had his worst game yet this season. If this is going to be discussed every single night, things are going to get really annoying around here.

What has Josh done to warrant being the starter? He has been the best player at his position since training camp started. He did not "fall into the position last year after injuries." What injuries are you talking about? I couldn't care less what he would do on all the other teams in the league. He is on the Pacers, and they need him to start and play a major role, that's all that is relevant here.


McBob does not deserve to start or even get 30 minutes.

On the different units of a basketball team, players need to do different things in order to fit into a certain role with the unit they are playing on. Not everybody can be counted on to play the same role. Tyler and Josh are both effective players, but they do it in a different fashion. In the current starting unit, we are not hurting for another scoring option which is the only thing that Tyler does better than Josh.

We need somebody that can help get our scorers in position to do the scoring. Josh is an elite level passer for his position, and he has quietly shown himself to be a very good screener. That part of his game has not been mentioned enough. Typically if one of our perimeter players has been getting an open look, it's because Josh has been working his tail off to help get them that look.

You say he shouldn't be getting 30 minutes, as he did tonight, but how many of those minutes came while he was playing the center position? Probably close to half, and I thought he played better as a five tonight than he did as a four. He had to play so many minutes at center because Hibbert was getting abused, and he is the only other player capable of playing that position. It isn't his fault that he played more than you think he should.


His rebounding ability is also Murhpy-esque.

I don't see that at all. He almost always blocks out, something that Murphy has never done in his life. He gets rebounds above the rim. However, the biggest difference between him and Murphy is that when he gets the rebound, he almost always follows it up by firing a good quick outlet pass to the guards or he can just take it himself to get the offense going the other way in a hurry. This is a very important attribute to have with the offense that JOB wants to run. This knock just seems a case of you seeing his numbers and realizing they are more than adequate so you have to find something to bring him down because he is getting the starting nod (which is not nearly as important as you are making it) over your "legend."


His defense consists of getting a help side block every now and then. Or getting toasted one on one.

If he aint getting an alley-oop he cant score.

Hasnt made a single free throw this year. And has ONLY shot like 5 of them.

Another thing I've seen is the Tyler fans seem to constantly want to criticize Josh because he uses his athleticism. How is it a bad thing to get help side blocks or alley-oop dunks? Those are exciting plays that get the crowd involved. If you had been following the Pacers for more than a year and 7 games, you would know that we haven't had a lot to be excited about for a while.

This assessment of his defense leaves me incredulous. When has he been "getting toasted one one on one?" His defense has not been a disappointment so far this season, and it wasn't tonight either.

Josh's job (and the job of the starting power forward on this team) is not to score. He isn't going to shoot a lot of free throws because he doesn't get a lot of usage on the offensive end. It isn't his job to put his head down and try to bull his way to the basket and throw up a junk shot to try to get to the free throw line. When Tyler comes in the game to give us a lift on the offensive end, it is his job to score, and his main offense is trying to draw fouls and get to the line. That's great, but just because he does it, does not mean that is what we need to get out of every player on the team. They have different roles because they are different players.

Would I like to see Josh be more aggressive offensively, sure. Sometimes. But I know, and he knows that is not what is going to earn him his playing time. He needs to keep working hard to do the little things that we need more out of our starters.


Thinks he never commits a foul " What did I do? " " I didnt do anything ".ect.

Most of the time, I have agreed with him. He gets everything called on him, and he can get absolutely killed on the other end and not get the call, but that's how it goes when you are a guy like Josh compared to some of the big name players in the NBA. That's life. I agree that I would like to see him worry less about the referees and more about his play sometimes, but I do think he has gotten pretty bad treatment from them as well. That technical foul he got tonight was a joke. He literally did and said nothing. Lowry fouled him, so they called a tech on Josh? That makes sense.


Tyler brings more to the table.. Its that simple. He also works better with the starters and you want your best 5 on the floor together.

Now this I just do not understand. The only, and I will repeat, only thing more that Tyler brings to the table is scoring. He is a better scorer. He is not a better rebounder, defender, passer, ball handler, screener, etc. He is a better scorer. That's it right now. That is what seems simple.

How can you say "he works better with the starters?" If he was starting he would be the fourth or fifth scoring option, and he is a horrid passer so he isn't going to help get the better scoring options very many looks. I would rather have Collison, Granger, and Hibbert (our three best players) be complimented by guys who do not need the ball to be effective on the offensive end, and are capable of defending the rim to make up for their defensive deficiencies.


Last night Hans played solid defense in the 11 minutes he was on the floor. Something McBob didnt do for even 30 seconds.

You see what you want to see through your Baby Blue lenses, and frankly what you apparently saw tonight, is not the case. I don't understand why you and your UNC compadres cannot just get over this irrational anti-Josh thing. They play on the same team now, and you are on a Pacers Digest, not Tar Heels Digest.

To say that Josh did not play solid defense for 30 seconds is a total joke. Scola started out scoring often, but other than his first shot, which was a very tough shot, that he made over good defense he didn't really get his points on Josh. Hill got that nasty dunk, but do you honestly think Tyler would have had a chance to defend that play either? He certainly came in and shut down Miller at the end of the game when Roy couldn't handle him.

It was not Josh's best game this year. Not by a long shot. But it definitely wasn't Tyler's best game either, and I didn't think either played all that well. I'm not trying to knock Tyler by saying he is a better fit off the bench. That's just the way it is for this team right now, and it is unfortunate that his fans cannot come to grips with that. Hansbrough is looking like he could be a good effective player in the NBA, but he isn't going to be the Hansbrough you guys loved so much in college. Let him fulfill whatever role he is capable of and be happy for him to be able to do it. Right now, what's best for Tyler and best for the Pacers, that role is as the first big off the bench.

cdash
11-13-2010, 04:21 AM
Sooo...we're all happy after tonight's game, no? Losing at home to one of the worst teams in the league minus two of their starters? Embarrassing. We have had a creampuff schedule so far and we have blown it. Shouldve beaten Milwaukee without bogut, Houston tonight, and at least given the Sixers a game at their place. Losses like this really **** me off. And I don't care how well he played, James Posey should never lead our team in scoring.

NapTonius Monk
11-13-2010, 07:12 AM
I think Paul Georges athleticism and defense could have been extremely useful in this game. He should never get a DNP-CD, NEVER. By all accounts he works his butt off and it doesn't do much for his confidence to sit him. He is a rookie for crying out loud, he is going to have ups and downs (though I think his defense has been fairly consistent and certainly above average for a rookie). I hate JOBs unwillingness to play the younger kids. I can't wait for next year. I've been wanting to go to a game so bad this year, but games like this take that out of me. Last thing I want is to go to a game and get as upset in public as I do at home. This team really rips my heart out. The past few years especially...I have hope for this years team, but so far it's been a blueprint of the past few years. Beat a good team, follow it up by offering your sphincter to a bad team. ugly.I'm actually going to defer to Jimmy Walnuts on this one. IF PG is having sub-par practices (as has been reported), then the worse thing that could happen is to play him as normal. Lest he feel a sense of entitlement despite not playing hard all the time. (aka Randy Moss Disease)

NapTonius Monk
11-13-2010, 07:17 AM
I was very surprised Brad Miller had such a big scoring game and he knocked down 3-3 three pointers which isn't typically something he brings on a nightly basis.It would be if he was as open every night as he was tonight. That didn't surprise me at all. In fact, I was a bit more worried about Houston with Brad playing (stretch 5????) than Yao. Not the best matchup for Roy.

NapTonius Monk
11-13-2010, 07:20 AM
What were we trying to do the last play. Was there another option besides Danny??? Just a very poor looking play by the players.Which made me wonder, did Dunleavy even touch the ball in the 4th qtr? He had it going again tonight, but I don't recall him getting many looks after the 3rd qtr.

NapTonius Monk
11-13-2010, 07:21 AM
In fact, it just seemed our offense went into underdrive when the starters came back in the 4th.

Justin Tyme
11-13-2010, 07:24 AM
EDIT: What's up with Danny lately? He's hasn't been scoring over 20 like he usually does and he was looking like an elite player until these past few games. If he's not playing consistently, then we have a problem.


I'm sure many will disagree with me, but I don't feel Granger is all that crazy about wearing the blue n gold anymore for whatever reason. Maybe he feels his talents could be put to better use on a better team. There is no denying Granger isn't the same player he was a few years ago, whatever the reason/reasons are. Hopefully, Granger will see the light and be the player we all so much enjoy watching play.

NapTonius Monk
11-13-2010, 07:34 AM
And that is why Lowry is an all star....................... oh wait
Some of you guys are forgetting about Kyle Lowry. He's playing behind Brooks down there, but he was a pretty sought after PG when he played in Memphis. He's not Rondo or Rose, but he's not table scraps either. He's an ideal 2nd PG. Can start and hold down the ship when needed.

Justin Tyme
11-13-2010, 07:41 AM
Darren Collison,0 ast. unexceptable


When I saw that in the box scores I couldn't believe it. 33 minutes and not an ast for your starting PG! Ford played 15 minutes an got 4 asts. The ball movement in this game wasn't anywhere near like it was in the Denver game. Neither was the engery displayed by the players.

I'll make Sookie happy by saying AJ needs to be getting some PT. The Collison kool aid and rose colored glasses may be distorting people's view. Ever since the Pacers traded for him, he has been hailed the savior. I'm beginning to wonder if some are right about how it was NO system that made Collison look so good. It's only been 7 games, so things can change. I'll try to be patient with the knowledge he is young, BUT NO ASTS just ain't cutt'n it.

NapTonius Monk
11-13-2010, 07:50 AM
I'm sure many will disagree with me, but I don't feel Granger is all that crazy about wearing the blue n gold anymore for whatever reason. Maybe he feels his talents could be put to better use on a better team. There is no denying Granger isn't the same player he was a few years ago, whatever the reason/reasons are. Hopefully, Granger will see the light and be the player we all so much enjoy watching play.I feel Danny isn't all that crazy about losing anymore.

Justin Tyme
11-13-2010, 07:53 AM
what does tyler have to do to own the starting pf job. i mean he is better than josh overall, i cant help but to think how many loose balls he would have gotten that josh didnt. when josh was gaurding scola he was tripping over his own feet while tyler on the othehand played more solid. the josh experiment is over and it is time for tyler to take his rightful spot as starting pf.


Sometimes too much emphasize is put on who starts. There are a # of teams starting players who aren't playing many minutes over better quality players who then play twice the minutes than the starter does. Prime example is Dahntay Jones at Denver 2 years ago with JR Smith coming off the bench. This rotation was very succerssful for Denver. I like Hans coming off the bench with McBob starting, but that's just me. I'd prefer a good quality PF starting with Hans and McBob coming off the bench, but that isn't the case.

NapTonius Monk
11-13-2010, 07:55 AM
When I saw that in the box scores I couldn't believe it. 33 minutes and not an ast for your starting PG! Ford played 15 minutes an got 4 asts. The ball movement in this game wasn't anywhere near like it was in the Denver game. Neither was the engery displayed by the players.

I'll make Sookie happy by saying AJ needs to be getting some PT. The Collison kool aid and rose colored glasses may be distorting people's view. Ever since the Pacers traded for him, he has been hailed the savior. I'm beginning to wonder if some are right about how it was NO system that made Collison look so good. It's only been 7 games, so things can change. I'll try to be patient with the knowledge he is young, BUT NO ASTS just ain't cutt'n it.
I noticed this as well about midway through the 3rd qtr. I took a quick glance at the board, and thought it said he didn't have any rebounds. But when I looked back and saw it said zero assists, I was a bit surprised. I wonder if we're putting Collison in the best position to succeed.

Justin Tyme
11-13-2010, 08:09 AM
Pacers need more strength and size inside.


I couldn't agree more. Bird has to get a good b/u Center, and SOON!

NapTonius Monk
11-13-2010, 08:13 AM
And I don't care how well he played, James Posey should never lead our team in scoring.Posey was red hot. What's the problem? It's not like that was the gameplan. JOB played him because he got it going. He also has had times where he was left on the bench. So Jim shouldn't play the hot hand, just because he's James Posey?

Justin Tyme
11-13-2010, 08:17 AM
I have only read a few of the posts in this thread, and I'm sure many are complaining about which players were in the game at the end.

Collison - i assume no one had any problem with him being in
Granger -I assume no one had any problems with him being in
Dunleavy was having a good game, he needed to be in their
Posey - if it weren't for him the pacers are out of the game and would have ben blown out
I think maybe the only debatable player was Josh over Roy. but after brad drove around Roy all night and hit a couple of threes, I think Roy had to be taken out, he was making Brad look like a superstar

So I think the correct 5 were in the game.

Rockets defense played us in a way that causes us huge problems. they got up into us, pressured the ballhandler made everything tought.

I think Collison needed to do more at the end of the game

Pacers are going to be inconsistant at least until late in the season, they are young, have several new players


I can't disagree, but one does get tired of having to wait to the last 20 or so games every year for the team to start getting it together. Tiresome and just plain frustrating!

Unclebuck
11-13-2010, 08:26 AM
We look really good get a lead looks like we'll win the game then we let the other team come back to beat us.


Actually the Pacers have trailed by double digits in 6 of their first 7 games.

Unclebuck
11-13-2010, 08:29 AM
I can't believe there are people who continue to defend Jim O'brien CRUSHING our young players confidence repeatedly with his ridiculous crap.



Well if what Jim has done to Roy and Rush has crushed them, then they aren't mentally tough enough and we need to get other young players who can be tough enough.

On a more general point: I read how so many of you say that Jim doesn't emphasize defense, that he doesn't care about defense, that all he cares about are threes, so he takes Roy out of the game to improve the pacers defense in this game (because by any objective measure Brad is tearing Roy up) and yet you still criticize the coach.


I think this quote from Dunleavy explains why the Pacers lost.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20101113/SPORTS04/11130330/1062/SPORTS04/Pacers-play-out-familiar-story-line

"To be honest, we had a lull in practice the last couple of days," he said. "There was a hangover from a notorious victory, or whatever you want to call it. It definitely affected us. Guys were not on the ball with things and it cost us the game probably."

jmoney2584
11-13-2010, 08:52 AM
There has been more times that Danny has launched an ill advised shot, than here has been times he has passed the ball to an open teammate. Do you watch the games?

Danny is not scoring because teams are focusing there defense on him. In years past Granger was semi "under the radar." Now everybody knows the guy can shoot, and they are shutting him down. He is frustrated but he doesn't have the tools to beat the defense. HE is basically a glorified version of Eddie House that can play great defense when he decides he wants too.

Zing! Haha

Justin Tyme
11-13-2010, 08:52 AM
I wonder if we're putting Collison in the best position to succeed.


NOT WITH THIS COACH DOING THE COACHING!

This is a problem I have with Jimmy. Well, just one of the problems. I feel his type of game isn't conducive to young players. He plays young players more than many coaches, but I just feel his type of system is detrimental to the overall growth of the player. Young players developing bad habits to fit the system does nothing for the future growth of the team. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed the bad habits learned aren't permanent and can be corrected easily by the new coach next year.

Justin Tyme
11-13-2010, 08:57 AM
Posey was red hot. What's the problem? It's not like that was the gameplan. JOB played him because he got it going. He also has had times where he was left on the bench. So Jim shouldn't play the hot hand, just because he's James Posey?


How many times have I read on this board someone complaining about Jimmy taking a player out of the game who has a hot hand? Posey's hot, Jimmy leaves him in, and then someone complains about Jimmy leaving in a player who is hot. :confused:

jmoney2584
11-13-2010, 09:09 AM
There has been more times that Danny has launched an ill advised shot, than here has been times he has passed the ball to an open teammate. Do you watch the games?

Danny is not scoring because teams are focusing there defense on him. In years past Granger was semi "under the radar." Now everybody knows the guy can shoot, and they are shutting him down. He is frustrated but he doesn't have the tools to beat the defense. HE is basically a glorified version of Eddie House that can play great defense when he decides he wants too.

Zing! Haha

MLB007
11-13-2010, 09:47 AM
Playoff teams, teams on the rise, don't lose AT HOME to the Bucks without BOGUT and the Rockets without YAO and BROOKS in the span of a week. Period.

You can say I'm overreacting, but this was a disgusting week all things considered. The Nuggets game means effectively nothing. Two gimmes just given away.

Also, Stacey Paetz, I don't care what Kevin Martin has to say.

They're a young team learning to play together.
If you are expecting a finished product that is going to win all the games it should, you are going to be disappointed.
I see a team that has been competetive in almost every game and is working to shake out it's rotations.
THis team will/should improve gradually over the course of the WHOLE season.
We will know how good this team is in a few months.
Not now.

MLB007
11-13-2010, 09:50 AM
I just disagree with that Kesty, at some point the "we're a young team" argument becomes just another excuse.

Yes, and that time is not this year. ;) :buddies:

Unclebuck
11-13-2010, 10:24 AM
Battier is the best defender in the NBA against players like Granger. Granger is a guy you have to crowd, get up into his body force him to dridble the ball - battier is great at doing that

owl
11-13-2010, 10:43 AM
That is what Houston did to all the Pacers especially on the perimeter and the Pacers could not drive to the hoop and did not have anyone inside who they could go to.
It is quite effective.

Chuck Chillout
11-13-2010, 10:51 AM
My wife and I attended our first game of the season last night, and it was a lot of fun. Area 55 is a fantastic idea and my hat is off to that group- adds something very cool to the experience.

I find myself much more invested in this team than last year's; this team is filled with young talent and it hurt more when we lost last night than it ever did last year.

Some observations:
TJ Ford played well. He seems to have committed to doing things O'Brien's way and I'd be surprised if JOB goes away from him in this role. It's perfectly suited to him.

Collison doesn't command authority yet and this team is short in the leadership department. He and TJ seem like the most likely and important players to fill this role; he's not there yet.

McRoberts, as much as I like his enthusiasm and potential, is easily our most immature rotation player and was easily taken out of his game last night, *****ing about calls.

As much as his offensive inconsistency has frustrated me in the past, Brandon Rush is a very good defender, our best defender by a wide margin. Seeing him in person only reinforces the fact.

One more thing: many of you will remember when Brad Miller said something to the effect of "I think I'll end up playing for the Pacers again" some time when playing for the Kings, I think. Let's make it happen already, LB! How much better would our team be with him as our back-up center?! And it would make my wife happy, even if he is a Purdue grad;).

D-BONE
11-13-2010, 10:55 AM
Playoff teams, teams on the rise, don't lose AT HOME to the Bucks without BOGUT and the Rockets without YAO and BROOKS in the span of a week. Period.

You can say I'm overreacting, but this was a disgusting week all things considered. The Nuggets game means effectively nothing. Two gimmes just given away.



Yeah, I think you need to win one of those two home games. I don't disagree with the idea of giving them time to gel and so forth. But, I'm still not at all confident of our ability to squeak into the playoffs.

I thought Rush's defense looked good at times. Good as in something we sorely need. I still say just let him be a wing defensive specialist. Have low expectations on offense and whatever we get is gravy.

Trophy
11-13-2010, 11:12 AM
I'm sure many will disagree with me, but I don't feel Granger is all that crazy about wearing the blue n gold anymore for whatever reason. Maybe he feels his talents could be put to better use on a better team. There is no denying Granger isn't the same player he was a few years ago, whatever the reason/reasons are. Hopefully, Granger will see the light and be the player we all so much enjoy watching play.

I think he loves to be a Pacer and is still our leader and will be the leader.

I think, like everyone else on the team is getting used to one another and the fact that we've added more talent to our core.

Danny is a huge part of our future and he needs to be shooting more.

Hopefully he'll start scoring a bunch of points again. We need it.

I'm expecting a big game from him tonight. We definitely have the SF advantage.

McKeyFan
11-13-2010, 11:17 AM
On a more general point: I read how so many of you say that Jim doesn't emphasize defense, that he doesn't care about defense, that all he cares about are threes, so he takes Roy out of the game to improve the pacers defense in this game (because by any objective measure Brad is tearing Roy up) and yet you still criticize the coach.

First of all, Brad hit another three down the stretch just after Roy left the game. So subbing Roy wasn't the solution.

Secondly, JOB has always looked for reasons to bench Roy. He wants players on the offensive end that stretch the floor. My opinion is that his eyes lit up at the idea of having Josh and Posey stretch the floor when he realized he had an excuse on the defensive end to bench Roy.

But Roy needs to stay in. He's a leader, he's a big game player, I beliieve. He makes free throws and he helps with stops. That is, if JOB tries to make an adjustment instead of just an abenchment.

Eleazar
11-13-2010, 11:19 AM
This team doesn't lose because the team is young, and to a lesser extent the the team isn't inconsistent because it is young. The team loses and is inconsistent because it isn't a complete team.

This team has only 1 true low post threat. McRoberts is more of an opportunistic scorer, and Hansbrough may be able to put up points but isn't really a strong low post threat in my eyes.

As well the team is too dependent on shooting which is inherently inconsistent.

This makes the team fairly easy to take advantage of by a smart and well coached team. At the same time it is quit telling how much talent and good this team can be just by the fact that the team is able to stay in most games and not get blown out.

Unclebuck
11-13-2010, 11:40 AM
First of all, Brad hit another three down the stretch just after Roy left the game. So subbing Roy wasn't the solution.

Secondly, JOB has always looked for reasons to bench Roy. He wants players on the offensive end that stretch the floor. My opinion is that his eyes lit up at the idea of having Josh and Posey stretch the floor when he realized he had an excuse on the defensive end to bench Roy.

But Roy needs to stay in. He's a leader, he's a big game player, I beliieve. He makes free throws and he helps with stops. That is, if JOB tries to make an adjustment instead of just an abenchment.

The best way to stretch the floor is to have a big guy downlow who gets double teamed.

And just because Brad hit one shot doesn't mean that replacing Roy wasn't the solution to - How many more shots would brad have goten if roy was in the game?

idioteque
11-13-2010, 11:43 AM
I am becoming completely ambivalent about Granger. He's never going to be the first option on a successful Pacers team. If he continues to play like this he's little more than a taller Ben Gordon.

McKeyFan
11-13-2010, 12:25 PM
The best way to stretch the floor is to have a big guy downlow who gets double teamed.
I agree. So why wasn't Roy in the game?




And just because Brad hit one shot doesn't mean that replacing Roy wasn't the solution to - How many more shots would brad have goten if roy was in the game?

How many would he have gotten if Roy was switched to Scola? Who knows.

But it doesn't matter. Would we bench Granger if HIS man was hot? No, you make adjustments and stick with your horses. I'm telling you, this is not only bad because it's a worse formula for success (Roy helps us win), it's bad for the long term this year. Roy will continue to look over his shoulder. We've been through two years of this already and were told it was over.

Not.

PaceBalls
11-13-2010, 12:27 PM
The best way to stretch the floor is to have a big guy downlow who gets double teamed.

And just because Brad hit one shot doesn't mean that replacing Roy wasn't the solution to - How many more shots would brad have goten if roy was in the game?

But the other side of this is that you lose your low post presence and shot blocking by adjusting for Brad Miller's three point threat. Now why can't they just have Danny or Posey on Brad instead and keep Roy in the game?

Justin Tyme
11-13-2010, 12:33 PM
I am becoming completely ambivalent about Granger. He's never going to be the first option on a successful Pacers team. If he continues to play like this he's little more than a taller Ben Gordon.



That's an interesting comparison. I'll have to think about that one for awhile.

PacersPride
11-13-2010, 12:34 PM
I was kinda thrilled to see for the first time the following lineup on the floor at the same time.

collison, rush, granger, hansbro, hibbert

O'brien had that lineup together for about 2 minutes in the 4th, right around the 6 minute mark, then he made various changes.

since that is the lineup i feel should be starting it becomes very obvious this team is going to lose games like this because we are very young. outside of granger all these players have no more than 3 years of experience. patience is going to be a virtue indeed, but i would like to see that lineup more going forward.

i do think its time to put hansbro into the starting lineup, along with rush, move dun to the second unit along with mcbob. hansbro and rush are better players defensively, tho i like mcbobs defense as well.

i think o'brien is doing a better job this year but he is too unpredicatble on his lineup changes, and doesnt allow much continuity and consistency to develop.

even though they are very young i would like a lineup of:

DC, Rush, Granger, Hansbrough, Hibbert

2nd unit:

Ford (Price preferrably), PG24, Dun, Posey, McBob

with the majority of minutes going to Dun and McBob in the second unit. I feel this would give us the best chance for success. McBob and Hansbro are almost identical, both rebound, pass well, defend, set screens, but i think Hansbro has more offensive abilities, by inserting him into the lineup, then Rush at sg you can makeup for the scoring benching dunleavy with hansbro at the pf spot.

just my 2 cents, but i think its time for rush and hansbro to start.

PaceBalls
11-13-2010, 12:37 PM
Of course it was Roy's fault! He wasn't even close to him! Brad has been hitting those shots for years. He can't just totally get lost like that.

And when Roy did get close enough to contest, Brad (not exactly world renowned for his first step and quickness) went around him like he was wearing concrete shoes.

Well look, maybe I am missing something here, but why didn't we have had Roy on Scola or whomever the other bigs Houston had out there, why must Roy be forced to guard Brad or be taken out of the game? Why put Roy in the worst possible situation of trying to guard a 3pt shooter. His place is in the paint..

I think the proper adjustment to be made was to put someone else on Brad and keep Roy in the game.

Ozwalt72
11-13-2010, 12:40 PM
Only a couple things I can take from this game...

1.) How perfect would Brad be as a back up center behind Roy? For up to 20 minutes a game, he'd be an absolute workhorse for us. I wish we had him.

2.) This is Rush's 2nd game of the season. If he is truly a better player this year, we can't judge his season on 20 minutes against the Rockets.

3.) Lowry isn't any worse than Brooks. Brooks shoots the three, but Lowry is a better passer and defender.

4.) Houston's a very talented team even without Brooks and NO **** without Yao. Yao hasn't been healthy in years and they've still been a fairly successful team. Their core has played together for a few years. They have a solid mix of impact vets and youth in their group. That stuff helps.

vnzla81
11-13-2010, 01:11 PM
Pacers are going to be inconsistant at least until late in the season, they are young, have several new players

How many times are we going to use this as an excuse?

Here is the team that closed the game:

Collison (23 years old)
Dunleavy(30 years old)
Danny (27 years old)
James Posey(33 years old)
Josh Mc Roberts(23 years old, three years in the NBA)

They are not just that young.

Mackey_Rose
11-13-2010, 01:18 PM
Well look, maybe I am missing something here, but why didn't we have had Roy on Scola or whomever the other bigs Houston had out there, why must Roy be forced to guard Brad or be taken out of the game? Why put Roy in the worst possible situation of trying to guard a 3pt shooter. His place is in the paint..

I think the proper adjustment to be made was to put someone else on Brad and keep Roy in the game.

The thought of JOB as the Pacers coach makes me apoplectic, but I feel the need to defend him after last night.

I completely understand where you and McKeyFan are coming from. Roy is the heart and soul of the team right now, and it's only real leader. You definitely want that guy in the game as much as possible. I completely agree with that. However, last night he was not having a good game at all.

He could have tried to switch Roy onto Scola, but is Posey capable of defending Miller? I don't think so. Maybe, he certainly did a better job on Scola than I would have thought, but I think Miller would have been just too big for Posey. I think Posey should be planted on the end of the bench, but last night he had it going. If he is hitting shots, he can help us.

I guess I just don't think that what Roy was giving us offensively was enough to make up for his defense last night. I love Roy, how can you not? But last night he hurt us more than he helped us.

righteouscool
11-13-2010, 01:24 PM
When I saw that in the box scores I couldn't believe it. 33 minutes and not an ast for your starting PG! Ford played 15 minutes an got 4 asts. The ball movement in this game wasn't anywhere near like it was in the Denver game. Neither was the engery displayed by the players.

I'll make Sookie happy by saying AJ needs to be getting some PT. The Collison kool aid and rose colored glasses may be distorting people's view. Ever since the Pacers traded for him, he has been hailed the savior. I'm beginning to wonder if some are right about how it was NO system that made Collison look so good. It's only been 7 games, so things can change. I'll try to be patient with the knowledge he is young, BUT NO ASTS just ain't cutt'n it.

I think it's more the system then anything. Darren seemed to rarely have the ball in his hand besides bringing it up court. I've got to ask, what is the point of even having a point guard on a Jim O'brien team? The games were Collison has dominated the ball he's looked great.

imawhat
11-13-2010, 02:04 PM
He could have tried to switch Roy onto Scola, but is Posey capable of defending Miller? I don't think so. Maybe, he certainly did a better job on Scola than I would have thought, but I think Miller would have been just too big for Posey.

Putting Posey on Miller was the obvious choice, or so I thought. Miller's too big for Posey? Good, Houston wanted to run the pick and roll at the top. I wanted to see Houston get out of their rhythm. And if Brad stays at the top, Posey stays on him and is savvy enough to stay on his feet when Brad pump fakes.

I should've been shocked that we didn't make the switch (rather than the substitution), but I wasn't. The going got tough and Jim ran home to mama.



I guess I just don't think that what Roy was giving us offensively was enough to make up for his defense last night. I love Roy, how can you not? But last night he hurt us more than he helped us.

Roy had 14 points at half. Most of them came from close shots as Houston had problems guarding him.

Would you like to guess how many times Roy got the ball in the post in the 2nd half?

Our offense has zero discipline. We know exactly what works and what doesn't, but we keep straying away from what works. Roy should've been in the game and he should've been getting the ball in the post. It's been the same story since his rookie season, but the coach and other players are failing to recognize that because they have no trust.

Sookie
11-13-2010, 02:52 PM
When I saw that in the box scores I couldn't believe it. 33 minutes and not an ast for your starting PG! Ford played 15 minutes an got 4 asts. The ball movement in this game wasn't anywhere near like it was in the Denver game. Neither was the engery displayed by the players.

I'll make Sookie happy by saying AJ needs to be getting some PT. The Collison kool aid and rose colored glasses may be distorting people's view. Ever since the Pacers traded for him, he has been hailed the savior. I'm beginning to wonder if some are right about how it was NO system that made Collison look so good. It's only been 7 games, so things can change. I'll try to be patient with the knowledge he is young, BUT NO ASTS just ain't cutt'n it.

I said from the begining that I don't think Collison is any better than Price. And I really don't, and in fact I'd argue that at this point AJ's better (But Collison's athleticism gives him the possibility of having more potential) simply because Collison is just as bad as Dun (possibly worse) defensively.

That being said, I refuse to look at a PGs value on the court for the Pacers through assists. The offense looked better with Darren in the game than with Ford. And the PG is used as a scorer mostly because they are playing off the ball.

Yea, Price should be playing He should be playing over Ford..who half the time doesn't even pretend to try to move the ball. (Collison, at the very least, always tries.) I think we should be allowing Price the opportunity to compete with Collison for minutes, and break them up by whichever is playing well. That's what should happen when you have two young guys on the team.

Eleazar
11-13-2010, 02:59 PM
How many times are we going to use this as an excuse?

Here is the team that closed the game:

Collison (23 years old)
Dunleavy(30 years old)
Danny (27 years old)
James Posey(33 years old)
Josh Mc Roberts(23 years old, three years in the NBA)

They are not just that young.

I agree. we have some young players, but I have a hard time calling Rush and Hibbert young anymore. George really doesn't get that many minutes, especially now with Rush back, and neither does Price. So that just leaves Hansbrough, Collison, and McRoberts (he barely played before, so I still consider him young). At the same time we have Posey, Dunleavy, Granger, and Ford who are all 27+. In fact these 4 players hold this team back more than the "young" players.

The real reason this team has problems is because they are not a complete team and JOB.

McRoberts and Hansbrough just aren't starting PF's. They both make for strong back-ups, but not starters. We have no quality back-up center. Outside of Hibbert we don't have any constant low post threat. Hansbrough can score, but I hardly see as a threat.

JOB doesn't know who gives him the best chance to win. Just because a player is a vet doesn't mean he gives your team a better chance. Honestly I truly believe that the best PG on the team has no even played a minute because JOB would rather play a vet in Ford and Collison was just given the starting position because of politics.

Gamble1
11-13-2010, 03:12 PM
They do improve - every year in March, they play well.
They just can't carry that over to the next season which is why its frustrating to here that they will improve every year only to start out slow.

Unclebuck
11-13-2010, 03:26 PM
Well look, maybe I am missing something here, but why didn't we have had Roy on Scola or whomever the other bigs Houston had out there, why must Roy be forced to guard Brad or be taken out of the game? Why put Roy in the worst possible situation of trying to guard a 3pt shooter. His place is in the paint..

I think the proper adjustment to be made was to put someone else on Brad and keep Roy in the game.

Yeah that probably would have worked better. Although Jim must have felt Posey needed to be on Scoli. And you wonderhow Posey would have done guarding Brad in the low post?

My only point is and has always been: these are difficult decisions late in games. I could make a strong argument for several different matchups. What most of you in this thread are suggesting are not dumb ideas, but what Jim did wasn't dumb either

MLB007
11-13-2010, 03:26 PM
This team doesn't lose because the team is young, and to a lesser extent the the team isn't inconsistent because it is young. The team loses and is inconsistent because it isn't a complete team.

This team has only 1 true low post threat. McRoberts is more of an opportunistic scorer, and Hansbrough may be able to put up points but isn't really a strong low post threat in my eyes.

As well the team is too dependent on shooting which is inherently inconsistent.

This makes the team fairly easy to take advantage of by a smart and well coached team. At the same time it is quit telling how much talent and good this team can be just by the fact that the team is able to stay in most games and not get blown out.

Not many teams have more than 1 low post threat. Some don't have ANY.

I think that has he becomes more entrenched in the system, Tyler will become a very good low post option. Despite the awkwardness of his shots, they work for him. And he gets to the line a large % of the time.
We need to work that some..........

MLB007
11-13-2010, 03:29 PM
How many times are we going to use this as an excuse?

Here is the team that closed the game:

Collison (23 years old)
Dunleavy(30 years old)
Danny (27 years old)
James Posey(33 years old)
Josh Mc Roberts(23 years old, three years in the NBA)

They are not just that young.

The game is 48 minutes.
What you do in minute 17 counts the same as minute 47.

McKeyFan
11-13-2010, 03:31 PM
Putting Posey on Miller was the obvious choice, or so I thought. Miller's too big for Posey? Good, Houston wanted to run the pick and roll at the top. I wanted to see Houston get out of their rhythm. And if Brad stays at the top, Posey stays on him and is savvy enough to stay on his feet when Brad pump fakes.

I should've been shocked that we didn't make the switch (rather than the substitution), but I wasn't. The going got tough and Jim ran home to mama.




Roy had 14 points at half. Most of them came from close shots as Houston had problems guarding him.

Would you like to guess how many times Roy got the ball in the post in the 2nd half?

Our offense has zero discipline. We know exactly what works and what doesn't, but we keep straying away from what works. Roy should've been in the game and he should've been getting the ball in the post. It's been the same story since his rookie season, but the coach and other players are failing to recognize that because they have no trust.

Great post.

Croshere said last night that our offense was working when Roy got the ball. It seems like everyone gets it except the guy that should.

McKeyFan
11-13-2010, 03:34 PM
but what Jim did wasn't dumb either
Yeah it was. Long term.

You don't sub Roy with Josh at the end of the game because of matchups.

That's dumb.

BringJackBack
11-13-2010, 03:36 PM
How many times are we going to use this as an excuse?

Here is the team that closed the game:

Collison (23 years old)
Dunleavy(30 years old)
Danny (27 years old)
James Posey(33 years old)
Josh Mc Roberts(23 years old, three years in the NBA)

They are not just that young.

You're skewing things. We are one of the youngest teams in the league but our coach uses veterans in preferance of more talented but mistakeful younger players. I would have played the hot hand too and kept James and Mike in in this instance as well. How many times has James Posey closed games for us this year? And if Mike was still sucking we would have put someone else in as well.

It's not Mike or Posey's fault that Paul George isn't ready and Brandon Rush won't shoot and Roy Hibbert can't guard a pick n pop. Our main core is Danny Granger (27), Darren Collison (23), Roy Hibbert (23), Paul George (20), and to a lesser extent Josh McRoberts (23) and Tyler Hansbrough (25). Get them some power scooters and Life Alert, they're way over the hill.

rock747
11-13-2010, 03:37 PM
alot of people are critical of O'brien taking Hibbert out of the game, but his inability to defend Brad Miller was alot of the reason we were struggling.

Sookie
11-13-2010, 03:56 PM
alot of people are critical of O'brien taking Hibbert out of the game, but his inability to defend Brad Miller was alot of the reason we were struggling.

Or you switch whose guarding Miller...

imawhat
11-13-2010, 04:11 PM
My only point is and has always been: these are difficult decisions late in games. I could make a strong argument for several different matchups. What most of you in this thread are suggesting are not dumb ideas, but what Jim did wasn't dumb either

Difficult? Leaving your best offensive player on the floor when you're behind is one of the easiest decisions a coach could make. Period.

The issue is never about Hibbert guarding player X. We NEED Hibbert to protect the basket because that's how he's best used. Brad Miller has been the same player for 12 years. Adelman has been the same coach for years. Why did we seem surprised when Brad started shooting deep?

We should've put Hibbert on Scola the moment they ran the first pick and roll at the top. It's not Rocket science.

KennerLeaguer
11-13-2010, 04:43 PM
My take.

I did not watch the game, I had to rely on highlights. Normally I'd like to stay out of any debates during the regular season regarding Roy because I'm not the most objective person in the world when it comes to him. That being said in the online and cable highlights I saw I viewed at least three times in which Miller scored with Roy not on the court. That suggests to me Miller was killing the Pacers regardless of who was on the floor. So JOB should have done a better job adjusting on the defensive front. If that meant taking Roy off Miller so be it. Roy probably deserves his share of the blame but to be honest playing defense away from the basket is not a strength of Roy at this time.

Regardless JOB did say at his Q&A with the fans that he was not going to pull Roy off the floor for defensive purposes or mismatches. In other words he wasn't going to let the other team dictate to him when Roy should be on the floor. Not even if the other team went small. Well, Houston did not go small; it went big with two big guys on the court apparently. And JOB still yanked Roy.

Another thing JOB said in another preseason interview was that if a team went small at the five to put Roy in a defensive mismatch, he would take advantage of the mismatch Roy could make for that five on the other end by making sure Roy got the ball. From all reports it sounds like the Pacers went away from Roy during the second half so I guess JOB is still saying one thing while doing another.

Of course let me point out that I am not suggesting that Roy is so good that he should never be benched after long stretches of ineffectiveness. Hardly any players are above such things. However I will say that Roy was at least a +1 for the night, which meant defensive issues aside he was still one of the more effective players for the Paces last night.

Pacemaker
11-13-2010, 04:54 PM
I think that our major flaw is that when nothing is going our way we don''t have a player that takes it to rim for a foul and two easy free throws. We just continue jacking up jumper after jumper.

Justin Tyme
11-13-2010, 04:56 PM
I said from the begining that I don't think Collison is any better than Price. And I really don't, and in fact I'd argue that at this point AJ's better (But Collison's athleticism gives him the possibility of having more potential) simply because Collison is just as bad as Dun (possibly worse) defensively.

That being said, I refuse to look at a PGs value on the court for the Pacers through assists. The offense looked better with Darren in the game than with Ford. And the PG is used as a scorer mostly because they are playing off the ball.

Yea, Price should be playing He should be playing over Ford..who half the time doesn't even pretend to try to move the ball. (Collison, at the very least, always tries.) I think we should be allowing Price the opportunity to compete with Collison for minutes, and break them up by whichever is playing well. That's what should happen when you have two young guys on the team.


AJ should be suited up tonight, and Solo taking AJ's time all dressed up in a suit behind the bench.

Justin Tyme
11-13-2010, 05:00 PM
McRoberts and Hansbrough just aren't starting PF's. They both make for strong back-ups, but not starters. We have no quality back-up center. Outside of Hibbert we don't have any constant low post threat. Hansbrough can score, but I hardly see as a threat.


Shhh, you don't want to wake up their followers with the truth. You know it and I know it, but we seem to be in the minority.

kester99
11-13-2010, 05:10 PM
I think that our major flaw is that when nothing is going our way we don''t have a player that takes it to rim for a foul and two easy free throws. We just continue jacking up jumper after jumper.

I've been wishing we saw more of that from Danny for a couple of seasons now, but I'm getting resigned to him not doing it. Last night he took it in for a couple of fouls one time, and Quinn seemed amazed on the broadcast...whatever, he doesn't have that good of a handle on the ball, and he is a good jump shooter off the curl or the stop and pop, so...we get what we get, I guess.

It's one reason I'm looking forward to Paul George's development. He seems to be able to attack the rim effectively. Doesn't dribble off his foot, finishes strong. It will be nice to get that added to our arsenal with more regularity.

Brandon, are you reading this? You know you can be that guy. Get some tonight, jayhawk. We'll all yell whoopee and stuff.

Mr_Smith
11-13-2010, 06:35 PM
Gosh, they made Brad Miller look like a top ten center

WhackoJacko
11-13-2010, 06:57 PM
Sooo...we're all happy after tonight's game, no? Losing at home to one of the worst teams in the league minus two of their starters? Embarrassing. We have had a creampuff schedule so far and we have blown it. Shouldve beaten Milwaukee without bogut, Houston tonight, and at least given the Sixers a game at their place. Losses like this really **** me off. And I don't care how well he played, James Posey should never lead our team in scoring.

Say it ain't so, I thought with Troy gone the Pacers would be World Champs.

cordobes
11-13-2010, 07:17 PM
Difficult? Leaving your best offensive player on the floor when you're behind is one of the easiest decisions a coach could make. Period.

The issue is never about Hibbert guarding player X. We NEED Hibbert to protect the basket because that's how he's best used. Brad Miller has been the same player for 12 years. Adelman has been the same coach for years. Why did we seem surprised when Brad started shooting deep?

We should've put Hibbert on Scola the moment they ran the first pick and roll at the top. It's not Rocket science.


I was watching 2/3 games at the same time, but I'm pretty sure they switched Hibbert to Scola after Miller scored a couple of baskets and dishes in the first few possessions of the 2nd half. They switched after another open jump-shot for Miller off the pick'n'pop. I remember thinking they were just compounding the mistake, making a bad situation worse. The Rockets scored in that And1 play where Martin blows by Dunleavy and nobody steps up to help + on a Scola's baseline jump-shot over Hibbert.

They quickly reverted to the original pairing... and Miller proceeded to blow by Hibbert and dish an assist.

If Hibbert couldnt' guard Brad Miller, how on earth would he be able to bother Scola? Scola is too mobile, quick and skilled for Hibbert to defend.

I wouldn't have played Hibbert at all in the 4th quarter. He was offering very little on the offensive end, committing turnovers and not sealing his man down low and was a revolving door defensively.

cordobes
11-13-2010, 07:24 PM
Putting Posey on Miller was the obvious choice, or so I thought. Miller's too big for Posey? Good, Houston wanted to run the pick and roll at the top. I wanted to see Houston get out of their rhythm. And if Brad stays at the top, Posey stays on him and is savvy enough to stay on his feet when Brad pump fakes.

I should've been shocked that we didn't make the switch (rather than the substitution), but I wasn't. The going got tough and Jim ran home to mama.


Miller can post-up players like Posey and with the kind of shooters Houston had on the floor, you'd be burnt by the constant need to double and rotate.

Anyway, let's assume you do that. Who would Hibbert defend in those last 5 minutes?


Roy had 14 points at half. Most of them came from close shots as Houston had problems guarding him.

Would you like to guess how many times Roy got the ball in the post in the 2nd half?.

Had that airball where he lost the contact lens, an assist to Collison, the dunk after the lob from Dunleavy, that other turnover on the left block... but IMO the problem was that he wasn't sealing his defender well. People were afraid to throw him the ball. Hansbrough tried it once from the high post... turnover... next play, same situation, he takes the jump-shot, even though Hibbert actually had deeper positioning on that one.

DaveP63
11-13-2010, 08:10 PM
No Posey, no Dunleavy, they'd have been killed by 20. It's not a dumpster fire yet, but they're working on it!

rock747
11-14-2010, 01:10 AM
Or you switch whose guarding Miller...

Well, possibly. That all depends on who that leaves Roy to guard.

MLB007
11-14-2010, 03:17 PM
I think that our major flaw is that when nothing is going our way we don''t have a player that takes it to rim for a foul and two easy free throws. We just continue jacking up jumper after jumper.

Yes we do, but he hurt his ankle last night.