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View Full Version : Larry Brown = Jim O'Brien



flox
11-08-2010, 10:26 PM
Watching Spurs/Bobcats right now, 26 seconds left in the game, Spurs ball, up 93-91, 24 seconds on the shot clock.


Bobcats playing defense and not fouling.

edit: Gino takes the shot with 6 seconds on the clock, and it was very tough- he barely made it.

I think that it's clear that you don't foul in these situations.

redfoster
11-08-2010, 10:29 PM
Thanks flox.

Doddage
11-08-2010, 10:30 PM
:50cent:

flox
11-08-2010, 10:30 PM
Glad to help redfoster.

Bball
11-08-2010, 10:31 PM
If you are a coach with a tough defensive philosophy and your team understands game situations then I could see not fouling.

That's nothing I've seen from Jim O'Brien's Pacers...

xBulletproof
11-08-2010, 10:32 PM
Turned out quite well for the Bobcats too.

It's still moronic.

pacer4ever
11-08-2010, 10:33 PM
it wasnt that tuff of shot for manu. but that is a bad call by larry if manu missed it u get the ball back with 3 seconds max after it clanks off the rim.

pacer4ever
11-08-2010, 10:33 PM
Turned out quite well for the Bobcats too.

It's still moronic.

lol ya they won right?????????? wrong that is a horrible call by the coach

Bball
11-08-2010, 10:33 PM
BTW... how does the Spurs making the basket with 6 secs left and putting the game out of reach due to score and time help your argument?

If I was Larry Brown I'd be rethinking my own handling of that situation rather than finding solace in that is how Jim O'Brien played it too...

flox
11-08-2010, 10:34 PM
Yeah. I guess Larry Brown is a moronic coach.

flox
11-08-2010, 10:36 PM
it wasnt that tuff of shot for manu. but that is a bad call by larry if manu missed it u get the ball back with 3 seconds max after it clanks off the rim.

Yeah, with an inbounds play off of the side of your halfcourt with a great closer in SJax and good energy players who can probably beat their bigs with a alley oop in Tyrus and Wallace.

But you can't do that in three seconds, can you? I think most buzzer beaters and game winning shots beg to differ. It's why you get a star like SJax.

pacer4ever
11-08-2010, 10:36 PM
i rewatch it 3 times thats manu's bread and better if he had not got that open he would have wait till 1 to shoot.

flox
11-08-2010, 10:37 PM
i rewatch it 3 times thats manu's bread and better if he had not got that open he would have wait till 1 to shoot.

His past gamewinning attempts would beg to differ.

pacer4ever
11-08-2010, 10:38 PM
His past gamewinning attempts would beg to differ.

im done arguing with u and ur JOB ways. great coach but Bad call by larry.

flox
11-08-2010, 10:39 PM
I would like you to find me a point where ginobili has held a shot to the end of the shotclock to make a gamewinner.

I can't think of a single one. I can think of plenty where he drives and just shoots it (such as vs the Suns)

Trophy
11-08-2010, 10:40 PM
Bobcats suck.

I have no clue as to why Larry Brown even returned. I wouldn't be surprised if he just quit right in the middle of the season.

That team isn't special and doesn't have a large young core like we do.

They lost nearly all of their quality players like Felton and now they have to use Augustin as their PG who can't lead a team at PG and they also lost Tyson Chandler and now they have to start Nazr Mohammed who is more of a backup to 3rd string and Diop is his backup who is such a bad player that can't score.

Stephen Jackson hasn't played like he used and I noticed when I was at the game, his scoring lacked.

That team doesn't really score or shoot the ball very well and their defense is nothing special.

I think they might finish with the worst record in the league this season.

All I hope from that team is that they don't relocate. That's really the only city I can go to to see Pacers road games.

Their only biggest crowd of the season hated me on their opening night. :p

xBulletproof
11-08-2010, 10:42 PM
It's why you get a star like SJax.

You're kidding, right?

Trophy
11-08-2010, 10:46 PM
You're kidding, right?

Yeah he is not like he used to be.

The only star on that team is Gerald Wallace who can't really shoot, but he score a fair amount of points a night. (Except tonight)

Danny owned him when we played them this season.

Mackey_Rose
11-08-2010, 11:05 PM
Watching Spurs/Bobcats right now, 26 seconds left in the game, Spurs ball, up 93-91, 24 seconds on the shot clock.


Bobcats playing defense and not fouling.

edit: Gino takes the shot with 6 seconds on the clock, and it was very tough- he barely made it.

I think that it's clear that you don't foul in these situations.

Agreed, it is definitely crystal clear, after this example, that this method of game management is most conducive to winning basketball.

pacer4ever
11-08-2010, 11:05 PM
see flox a lay up with 4,9 seconds that was a 95% type shot for manu

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=301108030

Jon Theodore
11-08-2010, 11:07 PM
Danny Granger is BARELY a better player than Stephen Jackson for those of you acting like its crazy to call Sjax a star. To me if Granger is a star, then Sjax is also.

Jackson taking the warriors to the playoffs solidifies him as a "Star" in my book. He is a fringe all star no doubt...which is exactly what Granger is (besides the one and only year Granger was an all star).

I guess I am getting off topic, the whole not fouling thing...I think it is a way of telling your players to have confidence in there defense and I think in most of those situations you are just as likely to lose by playing the free throw game...I think just playing straight up defense gives you as good of shot to make a great defensive play, BUT it also makes a statement about being in control of the outcome.

You (as a player) can control how good of defense you play, you can't control if the other team makes/misses free throws. In other words...it's better to have faith in your players to play good defense, than to hope the other team messes up and bails you out. I can certainly see the logic.

Also, I hate O'brien.

pacer4ever
11-08-2010, 11:12 PM
Danny Granger is BARELY a better player than Stephen Jackson for those of you acting like its crazy to call Sjax a star. To me if Granger is a star, then Sjax is also.

Jackson taking the warriors to the playoffs solidifies him as a "Star" in my book. He is a fringe all star no doubt...which is exactly what Granger is (besides the one and only year Granger was an all star).

I guess I am getting off topic, the whole not fouling thing...I think it is a way of telling your players to have confidence in there defense and I think in most of those situations you are just as likely to lose by playing the free throw game...I think just playing straight up defense gives you as good of shot to make a great defensive play, BUT it also makes a statement about being in control of the outcome.

You (as a player) can control how good of defense you play, you can't control if the other team makes/misses free throws. In other words...it's better to have faith in your players to play good defense, than to hope the other team messes up and bails you out. I can certainly see the logic.

Also, I hate O'brien.

jax was a star 3 yrs ago not now at hiis age of 32. He has declined a bit

xBulletproof
11-08-2010, 11:18 PM
Me personally I was more referring to him claiming you get SJax to hit game winners or to take over at the end of games. I never recall him being great at that anyway. He's terribly streaky in my mind to be counted on for that.

Regardless, how did that wide open buzzer beater work out for SJax against the Pacers? You know, the one Posey gift wrapped him? Yeah, that's why you go get that "star". ;)

As far as the fouling or not fouling, you ever heard the term "don't put all your eggs in one basket"? That's exactly what you're doing by not fouling. Your giving yourself only 1 chance to extend the game. By fouling you can stretch it out 3 or 4 possessions.

Trophy
11-08-2010, 11:21 PM
Danny is much better than Jax and Gerald Wallace.

He's a better shooter/scorer.

Jon Theodore
11-08-2010, 11:22 PM
jax was a star 3 yrs ago not now at hiis age of 32. He has declined a bit

Of course he has declined a bit, he is still a fringe all star level player. I think a big part of his decline is probably playing for such a terrible team. Jax is a competitor, we all know that. I can only imagine how frustrated he is with that team.

Peck
11-08-2010, 11:22 PM
I am certain that some law of the universe was broken here in the title of this post.

I feel confident that the only times Larry Brown & Jim O'Brien should ever be uttered in the same sentence would be to say "Larry Brown is to coaching what Mozart was to music while Jim O'Brien is to coaching what William Hung is to music" or something like that.:)

pacer4ever
11-08-2010, 11:22 PM
Danny is much better than Jax and Gerald Wallace.

ya gerald i like because he plays great defense but id still take DG33. JAX is about 5 yrs to old to be in this convo.

pacer4ever
11-08-2010, 11:24 PM
I am certain that some law of the universe was broken here in the title of this post.

I feel confident that the only times Larry Brown & Jim O'Brien should ever be uttered in the same sentence would be to say "Larry Brown is to coaching what Mozart was to music while Jim O'Brien is to coaching what William Hung is to music" or something like that.:)

LOL HAHA great post


:ohsnap:

Jon Theodore
11-08-2010, 11:24 PM
Danny is every so slightly better than Jax and Gerald Wallace.

He's a better shooter/scorer.


Fixed

Trophy
11-08-2010, 11:34 PM
I understand Larry Brown loves the state of NC and wanted to work under Michael Jordan, but I mean why did he decide to coach this team.

A Hall of Famer wants to coach this crappy team and the fact that he returned to this team really surprised me and this was after they lost their key players.

He could've coached a good young team with so much talent and a bright future in the Bulls instead of the Bobcats.

Unclebuck
11-08-2010, 11:56 PM
If you are a coach with a tough defensive philosophy and your team understands game situations then I could see not fouling.

..

That makes no sense, I think either you foul or you don't based on the clock. No matter how bad your defense is it is still better to play 24 seconds of defense than to give a team two foul shots

BlueNGold
11-08-2010, 11:57 PM
Jackson was a good defensive player, but way too streaky an offensive player to be an all-star. He got his numbers on volume for the most part. He is simply not a consistent shooter. His team mate, Gerald Wallace is probably better than Jax. His FG% is remarkably better and he's a tougher guy to cover.

IOW, Granger > Wallace > Jax

...and Wallace is not an all-star. All of these players are good and above average starters, but Wallace and Jax are at #3 options on a good team. That's not all-star level.

Granger is a load to deal with and he's only a #2 option...and barely an all-star player.

BlueNGold
11-09-2010, 12:01 AM
Nobody in the NBA thinks JOb is at Larry Brown's level. Larry has been a hot commodity for years. JOb was a backup plan by a bad team. Not saying anything about JOb's coaching...just stating facts.

IUfan4life
11-09-2010, 12:06 AM
Bobcats suck.

I have no clue as to why Larry Brown even returned. I wouldn't be surprised if he just quit right in the middle of the season.

That team isn't special and doesn't have a large young core like we do.

They lost nearly all of their quality players like Felton and now they have to use Augustin as their PG who can't lead a team at PG and they also lost Tyson Chandler and now they have to start Nazr Mohammed who is more of a backup to 3rd string and Diop is his backup who is such a bad player that can't score.

Stephen Jackson hasn't played like he used and I noticed when I was at the game, his scoring lacked.

That team doesn't really score or shoot the ball very well and their defense is nothing special.

I think they might finish with the worst record in the league this season.

All I hope from that team is that they don't relocate. That's really the only city I can go to to see Pacers road games.

Their only biggest crowd of the season hated me on their opening night. :p
All they lost was Felton, Chandler provided less than nothing for the Bobcats. They are a very good defensive team. And they will not finish close to the worst in the league. Your view of the NBA is so skewed it impresses me. The only reason Jackson didn't score against us is that he was in foul trouble the entire game and was unable to get into a rythem

Danny is much better than Jax and Gerald Wallace.

He's a better shooter/scorer.
He's as good as Scottie Pippen too right? That is just a flat out wrong statement. Stephen Jackson is twice the leader Granger is, and more skilled offensively and a better defender. I shouldn't have to defend Gerald Wallace being better than Granger.

I understand Larry Brown loves the state of NC and wanted to work under Michael Jordan, but I mean why did he decide to coach this team.

A Hall of Famer wants to coach this crappy team and the fact that he returned to this team really surprised me and this was after they lost their key players.

He could've coached a good young team with so much talent and a bright future in the Bulls instead of the Bobcats.
Larry Brown goes to bad teams and coaches them up, then leaves. That is his thing.

IUfan4life
11-09-2010, 12:07 AM
BTW... how does the Spurs making the basket with 6 secs left and putting the game out of reach due to score and time help your argument?

If I was Larry Brown I'd be rethinking my own handling of that situation rather than finding solace in that is how Jim O'Brien played it too...

Whether he makes the shot or not is not the argument. It's whether players are dumb and tend to take a shot too early in the shot clock

Trophy
11-09-2010, 12:23 AM
All they lost was Felton, Chandler provided less than nothing for the Bobcats. They are a very good defensive team. And they will not finish close to the worst in the league. Your view of the NBA is so skewed it impresses me. The only reason Jackson didn't score against us is that he was in foul trouble the entire game and was unable to get into a rythem

He's as good as Scottie Pippen too right? That is just a flat out wrong statement. Stephen Jackson is twice the leader Granger is, and more skilled offensively and a better defender. I shouldn't have to defend Gerald Wallace being better than Granger.

Larry Brown goes to bad teams and coaches them up, then leaves. That is his thing.

The Bobcats are a very bad team and really don't have any talent except they can defend well. They will probably be one of the worst teams in the league this season.

Danny is much better than Wallace and the current Jax. Danny can shoot the ball much better and can make shots with a hand in his face and right off the dribble.

I never even said that Danny is as good as Scottie Pippen. :confused: We're talking about Gerald Wallace and Stephen Jackson.

You're right about Larry Brown coming in and leaving teams after a few seasons. I doubt he'll be back next season or if he'll finish this season.

Bball
11-09-2010, 12:24 AM
That makes no sense, I think either you foul or you don't based on the clock. No matter how bad your defense is it is still better to play 24 seconds of defense than to give a team two foul shots

You could split the difference and play it uber aggressive trying to get a steal in the first few seconds of the shot clock and accepting a foul if you get caught being too aggressive before you get the ball. And if there's no foul or steal in those first 8 secs or so then you absolutely foul.

But regardless of what Larry Brown did or Jim O'Brien did... you foul sooner rather than later and force the issue.

So far we have two examples of not fouling and we see how well that worked out for the teams that opted not to foul.

IUfan4life
11-09-2010, 12:25 AM
The Bobcats are a very bad team and really don't have any talent except they can defend well. They will probably be one of the worst teams in the league this season.

Danny is much better than Wallace and the current Jax.

You're right about Larry Brown coming in and leaving teams after a few seasons. I doubt he'll be back next season or if he'll finish this season.

Danny is not better than either of those two players. I understand we have different opinions, and will never agree on this subject, but taking Granger ahead of either is the height of being a Homer.

IUfan4life
11-09-2010, 12:27 AM
You could split the difference and play it uber aggressive trying to get a steal in the first few seconds of the shot clock and accepting a foul if you get caught being too aggressive before you get the ball. And if there's no foul or steal in those first 8 secs or so then you absolutely foul.

But regardless of what Larry Brown did or Jim O'Brien did... you foul sooner rather than later and force the issue.

So far we have two examples of not fouling and we see how well that worked out for the teams that opted not to foul.

I disagree with your conclusion that not fouling worked to the disadvantage to either trailing team.

Both the Spurs and the Bucks took a shot before they needed too. Whether they made the shot is inconsequential.

FWIW I agree with fouling

vnzla81
11-09-2010, 12:28 AM
Danny is not better than either of those two players. I understand we have different opinions, and will never agree on this subject, but taking Granger ahead of either is the height of being a Homer.
I don't think Danny is better than Wallace but he is better than Jackson for sure.

Trophy
11-09-2010, 12:28 AM
Danny is not better than either of those two players. I understand we have different opinions, and will never agree on this subject, but taking Granger ahead of either is the height of being a Homer.

Alright I'll respect your opinion because no one will win this debate.

Trophy
11-09-2010, 12:29 AM
I don't think Danny is better than Wallace but he is better than Jackson for sure.

I'll admit Wallace is a better defender, but Danny is a better shooter/scorer.

Shade
11-09-2010, 08:58 AM
flox...my friend...how do I put this gently...

You're insane. Crazy. Bonkers. Certifiable. Slipped a gear. Bats in the belfry. Primed to share a padded cell with Ron Artest and Dennis Rodman.

(9:21 to 9:50 mark)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIALhv8-wb4&feature=related

:-p

DocHolliday
11-09-2010, 09:00 AM
In this topic: the exception creates the rule.

Bball
11-09-2010, 10:23 AM
That makes no sense, I think either you foul or you don't based on the clock. No matter how bad your defense is it is still better to play 24 seconds of defense than to give a team two foul shots

I'm not saying I wouldn't call for the foul in almost all situations there... I'm just saying if a team's drilled on defense and is a great defending team with some real ballhawks on the floor, good speed, and smart about game situations then I MIGHT see not fouling in that situation.

But it's because I'd trust the players to have the situational awareness to ratchet up the defense, be extra aggressive and also not worry if that extra aggressiveness did lead to a foul... because without a steal the foul is what I really need in this situation anyway.

The Pacers are not a team I'd say plays the game with much situational awareness.

Mackey_Rose
11-09-2010, 10:31 AM
The Pacers are not a team I'd say plays the game with much situational awareness.

This is a good point, was JOB actively telling them not to foul?

If not, one of the players should have had the sense to do it on their own.

pacer4ever
11-09-2010, 10:33 AM
This is a good point, was JOB actively telling them not to foul?

If not, one of the players should have had the sense to do it on their own.

he probly told them in the huddle out of the timeout not to foul. He wasnt telling them to foul that is for sure.

Brad8888
11-09-2010, 10:40 AM
This thread...

:laugh:

The very idea that there is any qualitative similarities between a long time member of the Basketball Hall of Fame and Jim O'Brien

:jawdrop:

OP probably should :shhh: until he :morning::morning::morning::morning::morning:.

flox
11-09-2010, 12:38 PM
flox...my friend...how do I put this gently...

You're insane. Crazy. Bonkers. Certifiable. Slipped a gear. Bats in the belfry. Primed to share a padded cell with Ron Artest and Dennis Rodman.

(9:21 to 9:50 mark)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIALhv8-wb4&feature=related

:-p

Teeheee. I'm cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs!


Regarding the SJax vs Granger debate- SJax is a good defender and was a 20ppg scorer the past 3 seasons, and he's good at getting to the rim (4+fta per game) and is a fringe all-star, at the very least he deserved consideration last year for very strong play. He's probably at or below granger's level in terms of NBA stardom.


Anyway, I can't find evidence of Bobcats fans being upset that their team didn't foul. Don't quite understand the the double standard, but whatever.

Since86
11-09-2010, 02:04 PM
Anyway, I can't find evidence of Bobcats fans being upset that their team didn't foul. Don't quite understand the the double standard, but whatever.

Maybe because there isn't a double standard? Everyone is saying that Larry was wrong too, which would make it one standard since we said you had to foul if you'er Jim and/or Larry. We're pretty consistant with our standards on this one.

We can't help it if the Bobcats fans just don't care. That's not our problem, nor is it something we can control. But it doesn't make US have a double standard.

Bball
11-09-2010, 02:52 PM
Maybe because there isn't a double standard? Everyone is saying that Larry was wrong too, which would make it one standard since we said you had to foul if you'er Jim and/or Larry. We're pretty consistant with our standards on this one.

We can't help it if the Bobcats fans just don't care. That's not our problem, nor is it something we can control. But it doesn't make US have a double standard.

Maybe the Bobcat fans are willing to give Brown the benefit of the doubt? They probably don't need to do it very often. OTOH... Maybe Pacers fan have no more benefit of the doubt cards to use for O'Brien?

MTM
11-09-2010, 03:14 PM
There needs to be at least 4-5 seconds differential between the clocks for this strategy to be effective, assuming a rebound.

pacer4ever
11-09-2010, 04:57 PM
There needs to be at least 4-5 seconds differential between the clocks for this strategy to be effective, assuming a rebound.

at least because a rebound could bounce funny and lose u at least 3 secs. I would do it at 6 secs. just too be safe