PDA

View Full Version : A basketball question for Uncle Buck (and whoever else wants to chime in)



Peck
11-08-2010, 08:03 PM
I am declaring this a Jim O'Brien free thread.

U.B. what skill set would you prefer if you could only have one from your point guard.

Absolute mastery of passing and directing the flow of the game?

or

Hard nose defender who disrupts passing lanes and keeps his man from reaching the middle of the lane?

The point guard is competent at every other skill however he will be master and commander of the skill set you chose from above.

For these questions you are to assume that this players team mates are good but not great at every other aspect of the game. There is no supreme shot blocker standing in the lane protecting the paint no is there a one on one master shot maker on offense.

The coach for your team is Uncle Buck so whatever style of play you prefer will be what this team plays.

pacer4ever
11-08-2010, 08:05 PM
PnR like phx runs for steve nash and what NO does with chris paul let them have the ball in thier hands and make the best decsion for the team and make things happen.

Peck
11-08-2010, 08:10 PM
PnR like phx runs for steve nash and what NO does with chris paul let them have the ball in thier hands and make the best decsion for the team and make things happen.

Ok so you prefer a master play maker & director on the floor.

In your system how important in the point guard on the defensive end?

pacer4ever
11-08-2010, 08:13 PM
Ok so you prefer a master play maker & director on the floor.

In your system how important in the point guard on the defensive end?

vital more chris paul then nash lol pressures the ball and hassles the other teams pg. we have a good backup pg 2 lol who is all about defense and running plays to get the ball down low and get high % shots .

Sookie
11-08-2010, 08:18 PM
Absolute mastery of passing and dircting the flow of the game. Very easy decision for me.

flox
11-08-2010, 08:18 PM
The master play maker and director, although my ideal preference would be master scorer and attacker- to me currently in this league an ideal offense would have a very strong, ball dominant, elite scorer who handles the ball and looks for his shot first, followed by creating either with his offensive attempts and such.

Think of a Tony Parker, Aaron Brooks type. An elite version of Aaron Brooks with super speed, 3 point shooting, and aggressive ball handling would be my ideal point guard- and Aaron Brooks may achieve that yet.

Otherwise, I feel like a poor defensive point guard can be hid better than a poor offensive director- and an offensive director that can control who the ball goes to, who has the ball all the time and executes the offense perfectly, is much more important.

In this case I would assume I would have a decent scoring guard (Salmons?), an average small forward (Deng?), a decent power forward (Scola?) and a decent center (Kaman?)

I need to think about my team more- but I would assume that those would be my players?

TinManJoshua
11-08-2010, 08:27 PM
Mark Jackson.

IndyPacer
11-08-2010, 08:31 PM
It drives me mad to see a defensibly weak point guard, but if I can have only a lockdown defender or a great floor general, I'd have to pick the floor general for the point guard spot. An exception would be if I had one or two gifted playmakers at other positions on the team (maybe a wing with point guard skills but not enough speed for the traditional point guard spot, for example), in which case I definitely want the lockdown defender for my point guard. I want every position strong defensively, but your whole offense can be stagnant if you don't have a playmaker.

Unclebuck
11-08-2010, 08:49 PM
Well since you won't allow me to qualify my selection. As much as I would like to say otherwise, I suppose I would rather have the master of passing and flow of the offense. It is a very close call for me.

I always say the point guard is the most important defender on the floor, he sets the tone defensively, but he also does offensively. If u consider the overall impact a player like steve Nash has on the Suns that is much more than whoever the best defensive point guard has (rondo). clarification: nash's offense has more impact than does Rondo's defense.

So if it is an either or situation, i have to go for offense at point.

ok, now that i answered ur question as asked, if a team has a Kobe, Wade, Lebron, everything I said is null and void. in that case u want a great defender and good shooter, and whether they have any true point guard skills doesn't matter

Right now my favorite point guard is Rondo. he has the defense u want. He has the athletism and size he can create shots for teammates. only thing he doesnt have is a great outside shot.

Jon Theodore
11-08-2010, 08:50 PM
You guys need to use the PM function of this board for threads like this.

Trophy
11-08-2010, 08:53 PM
I think the players are suiting Darren's type of play. The bigger guys are setting picks so he can get by and score.

I think the players should set the picks out there for Darren and he needs to not have to rush the ball up the court. That's how we'll become a better team because Darren's able to guide the offense.

EDIT: I apologize for that statement before.

15th parallel
11-08-2010, 09:35 PM
Directing the flow of the game.

The PG is the court general. You want him to be the one controlling and calling the plays, to be the right hand man of the coach to execute the offense and the defense. He doesn't need to be a great fancy passer. He just needs to direct where the players need to be, to be able to optimize his teammates or his own potential, especially to score, whether inside and close to the bucket or an open shot at the corner.

Hicks
11-08-2010, 09:45 PM
You guys need to use the PM function of this board for threads like this.

No, they don't. It allows others to chime in for themselves and some of those who don't may at least find this interesting.

Peck
11-08-2010, 10:15 PM
Well since you won't allow me to qualify my selection. As much as I would like to say otherwise, I suppose I would rather have the master of passing and flow of the offense. It is a very close call for me.

I always say the point guard is the most important defender on the floor, he sets the tone defensively, but he also does offensively. If u consider the overall impact a player like steve Nash has on the Suns that is much more than whoever the best defensive point guard has (rondo). clarification: nash's offense has more impact than does Rondo's defense.

So if it is an either or situation, i have to go for offense at point.

ok, now that i answered ur question as asked, if a team has a Kobe, Wade, Lebron, everything I said is null and void. in that case u want a great defender and good shooter, and whether they have any true point guard skills doesn't matter

Right now my favorite point guard is Rondo. he has the defense u want. He has the athletism and size he can create shots for teammates. only thing he doesnt have is a great outside shot.

Who is the best defensive p.g. you have ever seen?

Conversely who is the best guard you have ever seen for setting up an offense?

Pacerized
11-08-2010, 10:19 PM
Who is the best defensive p.g. you have ever seen?

Conversely who is the best guard you have ever seen for setting up an offense?

If this is still directed at everyone?

Off the top of my head Gary Payton in his prime was a great defender.
I also thought Mark Jackson was great at setting up the offense more so then just being a great passer.

vnzla81
11-08-2010, 10:20 PM
I like Nash, he makes mediocre players look good, in fact almost every player that plays with him should give him part of their income, he is the Payton Manning of the NBA.

Sookie
11-08-2010, 10:21 PM
Who is the best defensive p.g. you have ever seen?

Conversely who is the best guard you have ever seen for setting up an offense?

1. I can't think of one better than Rondo.
2. Sue Bird

Peck
11-08-2010, 10:24 PM
If this is still directed at everyone?

Off the top of my head Gary Payton in his prime was a great defender.
I also thought Mark Jackson was great at setting up the offense more so then just being a great passer.

Yes sir, I want all to chime in. Uncle Buck is just the salt block we use to attract the deer.;)

Hibbert
11-08-2010, 10:25 PM
Peck, Gary Payton was and is the best defensive point guard I have ever seen play.

pacer4ever
11-08-2010, 10:26 PM
running offense john stockton and best defensive is Gary Payton

Day-V
11-08-2010, 10:28 PM
Just clone Travis Best, and you're set.

xBulletproof
11-08-2010, 10:29 PM
Just clone Travis Best, and you've got TJ Ford.

Fixed! :D

Peck
11-08-2010, 10:33 PM
Just clone Travis Best, and you're set.

Actually I had to check to make sure U.B. didn't hack your account there however the green was the giveaway because he wouldn't have been kidding.

:cool:

Unclebuck
11-08-2010, 10:50 PM
Who is the best defensive p.g. you have ever seen?

Conversely who is the best guard you have ever seen for setting up an offense?

Wow, I cannot just pick one defender. Derek Harper, Mookie Blalock back in the day were great. Although not sure either could be nearly as effective with the no handchecking rule of today. I thought Gary Payton was the most talented defender I've ever seen, but he didn't play as hard as some others. Today I think Rondo is the best. I suppose I would pick Gary Payton if I had to choose.

Pacers best defensive point guards: Ricky Sobers was good (although was he or Johnny Davis the point guard? Woody was good, although he had trouble with the really quick smaler guys. Honestly I might pick Travis Best. Although Erick Strickland might have been the best Pacers defender, but he didn't play much, so I can't count him.

As far as offense - You are asking for the player best setting up an offense. Which is different from the best passer, or assist guy. Regardless I have to go with John Stockton, and to truly appeciate him you had to have seen him play in person. Never saw a player like him, he was incredible in how he used angles to make passes look easy. He was a master at running an offense. I would also mention Nash

dohman
11-08-2010, 10:50 PM
Hmmm isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash.

Unclebuck
11-08-2010, 10:59 PM
Isiah Thomas was a very underrated defender. I would would him near the top defensively

dohman
11-08-2010, 11:00 PM
I cannot believe there are not more point guards like John Stockton. I would say a top 5 pushing it top 10 for sure defensively and one of the greatest setup men of all time.

dohman
11-09-2010, 12:18 AM
Isiah Thomas was a very underrated defender. I would would him near the top defensively

I never had the chance to watch frazier personally but from what I read he was amazing. Payton and Thomas were both a joy to watch.

Major Cold
11-09-2010, 07:19 AM
If I had a Kobe or Lebron I would love to see Kevin Johnson next the them.

Justin Tyme
11-09-2010, 08:31 AM
Absolute mastery of passing and dircting the flow of the game. Very easy decision for me.


DITTO! As Sookie says, easy decision.

Can we start a fire Uncle Buck thread yet? :D

Justin Tyme
11-09-2010, 08:38 AM
Right now my favorite point guard is Rondo. he has the defense u want. He has the athletism and size he can create shots for teammates. only thing he doesnt have is a great outside shot.


I was thinking the other day as to who was the best player on the Celtics was. Was it KG, Allen, or Pierce? No, it was Rondo. I can't disagree with your PG choice COACH.

MTM
11-09-2010, 08:45 AM
Mark Jackson, Steve Nash et al are my favorites. Derek Harper was great because he was so effective on both offense and defense.

I wonder with Rondo whether he is great because he is surrounded by great players, or whether he would be great even with a mediocre supporting cast. I expect at some point as the talent diminishes/retires in Boston we will find out.

Justin Tyme
11-09-2010, 08:46 AM
Bob Cousey could direct a team, set up and pass well. He was very good.

BillS
11-09-2010, 08:54 AM
My perfect point guard (and I understand there is no such thing) is a point guard who directs the offense and gets the ball to the proper player at the proper time.

This does NOT mean a PG who looks to score first and dishes the ball if his own scoring possibility isn't there. It is a point guard who knows where the ball needs to go in the flow of the offense so that the right person has it in position to make a positive move, whether that is scoring or hitting a more open man.

I want an offense where the ball moves and where the players move, so the PG needs to know not just where players are but where they are going to be.

Regarding defense, since we can't have both in one player, I would point out that you can move your defenders around so that the main defender on whoever brings the ball up the court can be whoever is best suited to defend him. On offense, there is only one guy who starts the play, whether that is a Point Guard or Point Forward or whatever you call him. Since that offensive skill is more necessary in one guy than the defensive skill, I'll take the offensive skill.

Now, the PG shouldn't be so bad on defense it is 4 on 5 every time down the floor, of course.

Brad8888
11-09-2010, 10:05 AM
My perfect point guard (and I understand there is no such thing) is a point guard who directs the offense and gets the ball to the proper player at the proper time.

This does NOT mean a PG who looks to score first and dishes the ball if his own scoring possibility isn't there. It is a point guard who knows where the ball needs to go in the flow of the offense so that the right person has it in position to make a positive move, whether that is scoring or hitting a more open man.

I want an offense where the ball moves and where the players move, so the PG needs to know not just where players are but where they are going to be.

Regarding defense, since we can't have both in one player, I would point out that you can move your defenders around so that the main defender on whoever brings the ball up the court can be whoever is best suited to defend him. On offense, there is only one guy who starts the play, whether that is a Point Guard or Point Forward or whatever you call him. Since that offensive skill is more necessary in one guy than the defensive skill, I'll take the offensive skill.

Now, the PG shouldn't be so bad on defense it is 4 on 5 every time down the floor, of course.

Abso-freakin-lutely! Brilliantly succinct and realistic. Ditto for me.

I can't wait to have a coach who values these principles.

jhondog28
11-09-2010, 10:07 AM
If you said pick between Steve Nash and Rajon Rondo who I think are both perfect examples of present day representations of this I would pick Rondo. I hate the Celtics, but he can change the game just by his defense alone. Most of the time masters of defense on the PG level has the peripherals (sp?) to view the entire floor and think 4 steps ahead of anyone else which directly affects their offensive decision making.

Unclebuck
11-09-2010, 10:18 AM
Ideally, what I want in a point guard is someone who doesn't average a lot of points, but can score at will whenever he needs to. Stockton was great at this, look at his shooting %, career 51.5% and 12 years he shot over 50%. And if you take out his 1st 3 seasons his shooting % is incredible. He also played 82 games in 16 out of 19 seasons. That is amazing 16 seasons he played in all 82 games and his last 4 seasons in the NBA he played 82 games each season. he was also extremely clutch, don't think about giving him a semi open shot late in a close game.

Another way I judge players is how they seem to always kill the pacers, as in wow, no matter what we do we cannot stop that guy. I would out Kevin Johnson at the top of the list for that (until his injuries) he was unstoppable. Mark Price was the best shooting point guard I've ever seen, from any distance - if you didn't trap him in the pick and rolls he would kill you.

Brad8888
11-09-2010, 10:27 AM
Ideally, what I want in a point guard is someone who doesn't average a lot of points, but can score at will whenever he needs to. Stockton was great at this, look at his shooting %, career 51.5% and 12 years he shot over 50%. And if you take out his 1st 3 seasons his shooting % is incredible. He also played 82 games in 16 out of 19 seasons. That is amazing 16 seasons he played in all 82 games and his last 4 seasons in the NBA he played 82 games each season. he was also extremely clutch, don't think about giving him a semi open shot late in a close game.

Another way I judge players is how they seem to always kill the pacers, as in wow, no matter what we do we cannot stop that guy. I would out Kevin Johnson at the top of the list for that (until his injuries) he was unstoppable. Mark Price was the best shooting point guard I've ever seen, from any distance - if you didn't trap him in the pick and rolls he would kill you.

Without Stockton, there would not have been nearly as much of a Malone.

Unclebuck
11-09-2010, 10:33 AM
Without Stockton, there would not have been nearly as much of a Malone.

I contend that Stockton made Malone seem a lot better than he was. Not that Malone wasn't a very good player, but Stockton helped him so much. Bottomline for me Stock helped Malone a lot more than did Malone help Stockton.

Another thing Stockton was probably the best pick setting point guard ever, in the Jazz system the point guard used to set picks often and John was good, in fact many opposing players consider him a dirty player. He knew all the tricks that is for sure.

No one has mentioned Jason Kidd yet, and he was the best at running the fastbreak (Magic was right there too) but the best thing you could say about jason is he could dominate a game without scoring a single point. He was the best rebounding point guard I think ever (although Rondo might be as good)

jhondog28
11-09-2010, 11:22 AM
Stockton was one of my favorite players of all time. That guy was not afraid of anybody. Ice in his veins...wish he won a title alwasy thought he deserved it.

bellisimo
11-09-2010, 11:29 AM
No, they don't. It allows others to chime in for themselves and some of those who don't may at least find this interesting.

I can appreciate that, but why does the thread feel the need to call out UB about it instead of just asking an open ended question to everyone? just my 2 cents.

jcouts
11-09-2010, 11:49 AM
My best point guard greatly varies depending on the players surrounding him and the system being run.

If it was all about the player, the Mavs wouldn't have been knocked out in the first round of the playoffs 2 out of the last 3 seasons.

Paired with the current Pacers team and considerations of the system they will likely be running over the next 5 years, Deron Williams would be my top choice of an active PG - without a second of doubt.

BillS
11-09-2010, 11:58 AM
Abso-freakin-lutely! Brilliantly succinct and realistic. Ditto for me.

I can't wait to have a coach who values these principles.

Skirting close to the Forbidden Topic, I would call this an interesting perspective. Ball motion, player motion, and team defense seem to be valued currently, whether they are happening well or not.

The one thing I think is missing is a number of set plays that help to make sure the PG knows where everyone is more easily as opposed to a read-and-react where you have to hope the pass receiver keeps moving the direction you think he's going to.

Peck
11-09-2010, 12:04 PM
Yea, I think Bills comment about set plays etc. is going to be the last of that particular line of thought I will let in here.

I do NOT want this to devolve into the same old same old.

For the record I would also chose the offensive p.g. skills as long as the defense was standard and my choice for both offense & defense would be the same.

The single most under rated player in the history of the NBA, John Stockton.

Hibbert
11-09-2010, 01:27 PM
The single most under rated player in the history of the NBA, John Stockton.

Stockton was given his due and is only seen by some as underrated due to the fact that he never got a ring. He was a 10 time NBA All-Star, 2X All NBA 1st Team, 6X All NBA 2nd Team, and 3X All NBA 3rd team. He was also first ballot Hall of Famer.

The guy who gets my vote as the NBA's most underrated player ever is a 5 time NBA Champion, only 2X NBA All-Star, only 2X NBA Defensive Player of the Year, 2X All NBA 3rd team, 1X All-Defensive 2nd team, 7X All Defensive 1st team, and led the league 7 straight years to get 7X NBA Rebounding Champion. His name is Dennis Rodman.

Peck
11-09-2010, 01:54 PM
Stockton was given his due and is only seen by some as underrated due to the fact that he never got a ring. He was a 10 time NBA All-Star, 2X All NBA 1st Team, 6X All NBA 2nd Team, and 3X All NBA 3rd team. He was also first ballot Hall of Famer.

The guy who gets my vote as the NBA's most underrated player ever is a 5 time NBA Champion, only 2X NBA All-Star, only 2X NBA Defensive Player of the Year, 2X All NBA 3rd team, 1X All-Defensive 2nd team, 7X All Defensive 1st team, and led the league 7 straight years to get 7X NBA Rebounding Champion. His name is Dennis Rodman.

Under rated is obviously subjective & dependant on what criteria a person uses.

However I would agree that overall Dennis because of his side show circus act became under rated.

I guess I was using fan base to as the reason I state under rated. If you ask people to name the top 5 p.g.'s of all time often times John is not even listed & to me that is just amazing. Also he had no personality and played in a state and for a team that was not in the national spot light.

Unclebuck
11-09-2010, 01:59 PM
Rodman was very much underrated while a member of the Pistons. But after that I thought if anything he was overrated when he played on the Spurs and Bulls.

Hibbert
11-09-2010, 02:15 PM
Rodman was very much underrated while a member of the Pistons. But after that I thought if anything he was overrated when he played on the Spurs and Bulls.

Maybe when he was with the Lakers than the Mavericks, but at that time he was 37 and 38 years of age. He was 32 when he joined the Spurs and led the league in rebounds in his two years there. After that he joined the Bulls when he was 34 years of age amd during the next three years there he led the league in rebounds and helped the Bulls win three straight NBA Championships. I don't see how he could of possibly been overrated during this time.

Unclebuck
11-09-2010, 02:31 PM
Maybe when he was with the Lakers than the Mavericks, but at that time he was 37 and 38 years of age. He was 32 when he joined the Spurs and led the league in rebounds in his two years there. After that he joined the Bulls when he was 34 years of age amd during the next three years there he led the league in rebounds and helped the Bulls win three straight NBA Championships. I don't see how he could of possibly been overrated during this time.

we are getting off the topic of this thread. But especially with the spurs, he often sacrificed his defense in order to get rebounds and beyond that of course he was a huge distraction. he also never tried to improve his offense. he was a very selfish player and person

Hibbert
11-09-2010, 02:37 PM
we are getting off the topic of this thread. But especially with the spurs, he often sacrificed his defense in order to get rebounds and beyond that of course he was a huge distraction. he also never tried to improve his offense. he was a very selfish player and person

Haha, wow. We are "off topic" since you decided to chime in on this. Peck offered that in his opinion, Stockton was the most overrated while I always have thought that Rodman didn't get enough credit for what he did. Regardless of his issues and distractions, that does not take away from the fact that he was a great player for several years and that his rebounding won several games.

Peck
11-09-2010, 02:37 PM
I can appreciate that, but why does the thread feel the need to call out UB about it instead of just asking an open ended question to everyone? just my 2 cents.

This is a very fair and reasonable question.

As Uncle Buck goes so goes the forum, IMO. He made a statement in another thread that he wanted to be able to talk about basketball again so I thought I would oblige.

While our forum every year has its ups and downs it seems to me that lately things have been a little snippy and frankly every thread devolves into a discussion about the current coach.

I just wanted a thread where we didn't devolve into a Jim O'Brien is the devil by the same people who say that every thread followed up by the same old people running to jump on the hand grenades.

There is nothing wrong with disagreement, if we all had the same thoughts then there would only be one post with several thank you buttons pushed.

However I would like for us to get away where every thread needs a "I challenge you to a dual" button either.

naptownmenace
11-09-2010, 03:09 PM
I'd rather have a PG that was offensively gifted like Derrick Rose rather than a guy that was just a ballhawk and average offensively. Rondo, IMO, is both a great director of the offense and a great defender so he wouldn't even qualify for this discussion.

As far as best PGs of all-time is concerned, I'd have to say that Maurice Cheeks is the best defensive PG and Magic Johnson was the best at directing an offense I've ever seen. Gary Payton was very good defensively as well but just a notch below Mo Cheeks.

Eindar
11-09-2010, 03:22 PM
Mark Jackson, Steve Nash et al are my favorites. Derek Harper was great because he was so effective on both offense and defense.

I wonder with Rondo whether he is great because he is surrounded by great players, or whether he would be great even with a mediocre supporting cast. I expect at some point as the talent diminishes/retires in Boston we will find out.

I thought that we sort of answered this question about Rondo during that playoff series he had against Chicago/Orlando when KG was out and he averaged almost a triple-double for the entire playoffs. While Pierce and Allen also played heavy minutes, they weren't that effective shooting the ball, and the rest of that roster other than those three was pretty terrible.

Unclebuck
11-09-2010, 03:58 PM
I'd rather have a PG that was offensively gifted like Derrick Rose rather than a guy that was just a ballhawk and average offensively. Rondo, IMO, is both a great director of the offense and a great defender so he wouldn't even qualify for this discussion.

As far as best PGs of all-time is concerned, I'd have to say that Maurice Cheeks is the best defensive PG and Magic Johnson was the best at directing an offense I've ever seen. Gary Payton was very good defensively as well but just a notch below Mo Cheeks.

I forgot about Maurice Cheeks, shame on me. His defense was as solid as any player ever. He didn't gamble a lot (didn't seem like he got a lot of steals, but I could be wrong, have not checked the stats) but he was great at controlling his man, and great in the team defense as well. He was steady.

I would say that GP probably had more defensive talent than mo Cheeks, but Cheeks never let up

Brad8888
11-09-2010, 05:16 PM
I contend that Stockton made Malone seem a lot better than he was. Not that Malone wasn't a very good player, but Stockton helped him so much. Bottomline for me Stock helped Malone a lot more than did Malone help Stockton.

Another thing Stockton was probably the best pick setting point guard ever, in the Jazz system the point guard used to set picks often and John was good, in fact many opposing players consider him a dirty player. He knew all the tricks that is for sure.

No one has mentioned Jason Kidd yet, and he was the best at running the fastbreak (Magic was right there too) but the best thing you could say about jason is he could dominate a game without scoring a single point. He was the best rebounding point guard I think ever (although Rondo might be as good)

Totally agree with you on Stockton, and I was agreeing with you to begin with. Karl Malone would not have had the career he had without a guard of the caliber of Stockton running the show in a system that favored passing and defense, and even encouraged point guards to defend. But, that was back in the days of handchecking. Stockton would not have fared nearly as well today defensively, but his assist rates likely would have been astronomical without as much perimeter resistance.

Really?
11-09-2010, 05:26 PM
Neither team will make the playoffs so really doesn't matter...I would choose the first option though...

More influence on the overall game that way...

Justin Tyme
11-09-2010, 07:12 PM
Well, I'll chime in on some PG's from the 60's that were good.

Lenny Wilkins
Richie Guerin
Oscar Robinson

B4 anyone says Oscar wasn't a PG but a SG, he was what is referred today as a combo guard and played PG too. Remember, he had a triple double season, and one of those triples was assists. He played with some good players in Jack Twyman and Wayne Emory as a Royal.

Wilkins as a Hawk played with Clyde L., Cliff H., and Bob P.

Slick Pinkham
11-09-2010, 08:13 PM
The best defender I even saw from the PG position was Alvin Robertson. Payton in his prime and Ron Harper once he played for Phil Jackson were right there too.

As to the question... it's tough but I'd take the offensive floor general who is at least decent at everything else.

But geesh it messes you up when even a good point guard (e.g. Mark Jackson) has to back the ball up the court because of relentless pressure (I'm remembering when Phil put Pippen on Jax, and Pippen was even better at defending PGs than Harper). I will say that no team in basketball history will ever have 4 better individual defenders than Jordan, Pippen, Harper, and a motivated Deniis Rodman. The length, speed, anticipation, footwork etc. of that bunch was just plain scary from an opposition point of view.

cordobes
11-10-2010, 10:41 PM
I'd rather have a PG that was offensively gifted like Derrick Rose rather than a guy that was just a ballhawk and average offensively. Rondo, IMO, is both a great director of the offense and a great defender so he wouldn't even qualify for this discussion.

As far as best PGs of all-time is concerned, I'd have to say that Maurice Cheeks is the best defensive PG and Magic Johnson was the best at directing an offense I've ever seen. Gary Payton was very good defensively as well but just a notch below Mo Cheeks.

Derrick Rose vs. who? Someone like Kyle Lowry? Easily Rose, of course. Russell Westbrook? Tougher decision. But I don't think Rose is that great of an offensive player yet and I rate Westbrook as the best defensive PG in the league, better than Rondo.

Stephen Curry (excellent O, solid D) vs. Russell Westbrook (excellent D, solid O) is a good one. I think I'd pick Curry.

I'd rate Payton above Mo Cheeks (Rondo always reminded me of Mo Cheeks, btw: the defense plus Mo's steady head offensively, a capable scorer but not prolific. Rondo has developed a creativity/passing that Cheeks didn't have though ). To me Payton was quicker, better team defender, better rebounder, more versatile. Cheeks (and Harper) were great ball-hawkers, pressuring on the ball, but they wouldn't do so well in today's game. DJ was another excellent defensive PG, even though he wasn't really a PG on the other end. Fat Lever too.

Magic's defense wouldn't even qualify as average, but I'd still pick him over any other PG in history.

What would be a good matchup amongst retired players? Tim Hardaway vs. Mo Cheeks?

HeliumFear
11-11-2010, 06:05 AM
Most PGs in the league aren't good defenders. I'll take the master playmaker without hesitation.

ChicagoJ
11-11-2010, 11:02 AM
The thread title is really unfortunate, given that I do believe Peck really wanted more than just UB to respond and participate.

As for me, I'll go ahead and post anyway. I'll even talk about basketball and try not to go on a tangent. I really don't like any question for basketball that forces someone to choose between offense and defense. If you want to watch a double-platoon sport, watch football. That's a sport where I love to watch players that specialize in playing only defense shut down players that specialize in playing only offense. But basketball players need to be good at both. When a coach has to make "situational substitutions" for offense and defense, that is not great coaching, that's a lousy roster.

By the way, I hope everybody noticed that the Pacers played GREAT defense in third quarter of the Nuggets game. You don't outscore your oppontent by 20+ points in a 12-minute quarter without playing great defense.

At the PG position, it has unique characteristics on the offensive end of the court that are crucial to team success. As the primary ballhandler, it is the PG's job to create opportunities for all five players to score. Typically, was all know, this is best accomplished by an offense with a lot of ball movement. (Which is why I don't like PGs that dominate the ball for the entire shot clock.) I don't care the ball movement starts - dribble penetration, pick-and-roll, give-and-go, whatever - the PG typically is the one who starts it and keeps all five players involved.

While I understand the point UB makes about the PG's on-the-ball defense, he also overstates the importance of that. Since the other team's PG is trying to accomplish the same objective - ball movement, once the ball movement starts the PG is just another defensive player (and it will start, even Gary Payton at his prime couldn't prevent the other team from EVER starting its offense. The '96 Sonics won 64 games and played in The Finals but still gave up 97 points per game... or said another way the GP-led Sonics still gave up one more point per game than the '96 Pacers with that "great" defensive PG named Mark Jackson. And both of those teams were coached by "defensive guru's" so don't try that argument with me, either!)

Even Scottie Pippen playing PG in '98 only prevented the Pacers from EVER starting thier offense for two games. By game #3, Dale was ready to level him with a pick. I still wonder why it took two full games to figure that out? Hello... Larry?? Sorry, I digress.

If the PG can not make the offense run effeciently, then I don't think the league has ever seen a defensive PG good enough to overcome that. With a great defensive PG that can't run the offense, you'll lost a lot of games by 74-82, where the "74" isn't caused by the opponent's great defense but your inept offense.

"Good" offense still beats "great" defense way too often to justify that selection at PG.

But your PG can't be a sieve on defense, either.

You could "live with" an great defensive PG that is a competent PG on offense, although it is less than ideal.

I'm not completely certain that I avoided all tangents in this post. :blush:

ChicagoJ
11-11-2010, 11:04 AM
The best defender I even saw from the PG position was Alvin Robertson.

That's a good choice from the past. But better than Mo Cheeks? I'm not sure.

ChicagoJ
11-11-2010, 03:22 PM
I forgot about Maurice Cheeks, shame on me. His defense was as solid as any player ever. He didn't gamble a lot (didn't seem like he got a lot of steals, but I could be wrong, have not checked the stats) but he was great at controlling his man, and great in the team defense as well. He was steady.

I missed this post the first time through.

If you haven't checked, you should. Mo never averaged less than 2.1 SPG until he was 32 year-old in the 1988-89 season. And that was an era where guards really declined after turning thirty.

In order, he was ranked #5, #6, #3, #2, #5, #5, #8, #2, and #10 in the league in steals.

He's ranked #5 all-time in career steals (2,310) and #8 all-time in SPG (2.1).

Somehow, he was only all-defensive first-team four times during his career.

When I think about a prototype PG, it is Mo Cheeks. I still believe he and Andrew Toney were the best backcourt of all time and I'll still argue that the '83 Sixers were the greatest team of all time.

ChicagoJ
11-11-2010, 03:29 PM
For those that don't remember Alvin Robertson, he was the DPOY in 1985-86, averaging an outrageous 3.7 SPG. He's the all-time leaders in career SPG at 2.7, but he's only #10 in career steals (as a back injury really slowed him down).

He's the only player to ever record a points-rebound-assists-steals quadruple-double.

The biggest difference between Mo and Robertson - Mo is also #10 overall in career assists, whereas Alvin is #94.