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View Full Version : My Scottie Pippen appreciation thread ...



xBulletproof
11-08-2010, 11:27 AM
This idea came to me as I've still seen people comparing Pippen to Granger. It's very disturbing to me. Maybe time has erased a little of my memory of Pippen, so anyone old enough to have seen his career, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall a single flaw in his game. Many, many times I'd watch a Bulls game and leave the game thinking Pippen was a more complete player than Michael Jordan. Not a better player, mind you.

Pippen could have been an All Star at PG, SG, SF, or PF. He would have excelled in any game plan or under any coach. His instincts, athleticism and size was an unstoppable combination. He was going to have an impact on the game, you just never knew how. Whether it was shutting down Mark Jackson at PG, or giving Barkley fits at PF .... it didn't seem to matter. If that failed, he could easily hand out 10 assists, control the boards, or score 30 points on you. He also had a killer instinct.

Anyway, for the 2nd post in this thread I'm going to post some video's by a Scottie Pippen freak (obviously) out there. These video's are separated by his defensive abilities, and what he could do on offense.

I'm not usually a huge fan of "highlight videos", but in this case for the purpose of making the difference between Pippen and Granger clear to those who haven't seen Pippen play (obviously, or you wouldn't compare), just watch the ball handling ability, and passing ability Pippen displays in these video's and ask yourself if you can ever see Granger making those plays, because I simply cannot. Then watch the defense and ask yourself the same question, because again, I don't think he's capable. That's not a knock on Granger so much, because well, most players who've worn an NBA jersey ... can't.

xBulletproof
11-08-2010, 11:30 AM
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chuckleslove
11-08-2010, 11:31 AM
Comparing Granger to Scottie Pippen is like comparing a McRib to a fillet mignon at a fine steak house. They don't even deserve to be in the same conversation.

I lived in Chicago during the second three-peat of the Bulls so got to see plenty of them and he was better in every single facet of the game, some of them significantly so(defense).

chuckleslove
11-08-2010, 11:31 AM
Whoa its a double post! WHAT DOES IT MEAN?!

xBulletproof
11-08-2010, 11:35 AM
Wow, here's a new one, I'd never seen this video from the guy before. Whoever this guy is on YouTube, he's done Pippen justice.

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Unclebuck
11-08-2010, 11:37 AM
I think he's probably the best defender I've ever seen play. He was great on the ball, but probably the best double teamer ever. he was also extremely smart defensively

vnzla81
11-08-2010, 11:38 AM
Pippen is a top 50 all time player, comparing him to Danny is like comparing aples to oranges(don't do it Putman ;))

xBulletproof
11-08-2010, 11:43 AM
I think he's probably the best defender I've ever seen play. He was great on the ball, but probably the best double teamer ever. he was also extremely smart defensively

Agreed. Anytime I watched him play, I don't think I ever went away thinking he didn't impact the game defensively. Maybe a couple times, but it was extremely rare.

If nothing else, these video's are just fun to watch, because they show some of his work that didn't always involve a block or steal. Just how well he stayed in front of his man. Some of the things that you don't usually see in these video's.


Pippen is a top 50 all time player

Tis true, but I think because he spent most of his career under Michael Jordans shadow, he may be the most underrated of that group.

vnzla81
11-08-2010, 12:01 PM
I think that Jordan was need it on Pippen's life, he brought the best out of him in practice, he got under his skin when he made mistakes and because of that There is not way to know how good he could have been in another team.

quinnthology
11-08-2010, 12:11 PM
There is not way to know how good he could have been in another team.

True. But he did get to Game 7 of the WCF without Jordan, farther than Jordan ever got without him. Granted on a way better team than Jordan's Wizards, but still worth noting.

gummy
11-08-2010, 01:55 PM
Beautiful. Thanks for digging these up!

spreedom
11-08-2010, 02:03 PM
I don't think the Granger/Pippen comparison is meant too literally... I doubt anyone here thinks Danny on his best day is anywhere near to being at Pippen's level. I think we are collectively using "Pippen" as a term similar to "Robin," meaning that we want to pair Danny with someone who can truly lead this team statistically and in the locker room. Danny's not that guy (and I'd argue that Pippen, while undoubtably one of the handful of best players I've ever seen period, isn't that guy either). So we're looking for "Jordan" or "Batman" but both in a figurative sense.

I loved the videos though... I absolutely hate the grief Scottie gets for supposedly never being an elite player. You could make a really strong argument that the Bulls had possibly the two best players in the league when Scottie and Jordan were in their primes.

Bill Simmons' The Book of Basketball has a brilliant writeup on Pippen (I believe ranking him around the 23rd best player on his Pyramid). I recommend it for anyone who has doubts of Pippen's greatness.

xBulletproof
11-08-2010, 02:06 PM
I think any doubts of Pippens greatness should be cut off by simply pointing out that when Jordan retired to play baseball, the Bulls lost only 2 more games than they did the year before with Jordan.

That was Pippen.

croz24
11-08-2010, 02:16 PM
granger isn't even close to pippen's level and in my opinion, pippen is overrated. i'd claim reggie is a better player honestly.

Eindar
11-08-2010, 02:17 PM
I don't think the comparisons between Pippen and Granger are meaning to say that Granger is almost as good as Pip. I think the comparisons are to say that Granger's game (at least initially) was modeled after Pippen's game. Tough, hard-nosed defender who could guard multiple positions.

As it's turned out, Granger isn't that interested in being a great defender, and certainly hasn't been able to bring it at both ends like Pippen did.

For a different angle, I know you've heard Paul George being compared to Tracy McGrady already on draft night. Well, they're not saying that PG is as good as T-Mac, they're saying they have similar frames and play a similar style. That's really all these comparisons are good for, is establishing who's style you emulate.

xBulletproof
11-08-2010, 02:40 PM
granger isn't even close to pippen's level and in my opinion, pippen is overrated. i'd claim reggie is a better player honestly.

:50cent:


For a different angle, I know you've heard Paul George being compared to Tracy McGrady already on draft night. Well, they're not saying that PG is as good as T-Mac, they're saying they have similar frames and play a similar style. That's really all these comparisons are good for, is establishing who's style you emulate.

You're correct, but it doesn't change the point. Granger doesn't emulate Pippens style anymore than ..... Collison. Coming out of college I'd say it was a fair comparison based on what he could be. It's clear at this point he isn't, and never will be. Compare him to Glen Rice. That's much closer.

I never argued with the comparison in the beginning, but at this point it's a pretty silly one.

Eddie Gill
11-08-2010, 04:32 PM
I hope Paul George is studying those Pippen highlight vids.

I'm not saying PG will have the career Pippen had, but their bodies are very similar and PG could learn a lot about how to utilize his length by watching how active Pippen was on D and the way he played the passing lanes.

spreedom
11-08-2010, 05:45 PM
granger isn't even close to pippen's level and in my opinion, pippen is overrated. i'd claim reggie is a better player honestly.


Come on now, that is just ridiculous...

croz24
11-08-2010, 06:22 PM
Come on now, that is just ridiculous...

reggie didn't have nearly the supporting cast and yet as the true leader of his team, reggie accomplished more. the moment pippen left chicago, he became very mediocre.

Ozwalt72
11-08-2010, 06:38 PM
reggie didn't have nearly the supporting cast and yet as the true leader of his team, reggie accomplished more. the moment pippen left chicago, he became very mediocre.

Pippen left Chicago at age 33. Of course he became mediocre.

cdash
11-08-2010, 06:39 PM
reggie didn't have nearly the supporting cast and yet as the true leader of his team, reggie accomplished more. the moment pippen left chicago, he became very mediocre.

Just stop, seriously.

croz24
11-08-2010, 07:10 PM
Just stop, seriously.

horace grant was better than anything reggie had as a number 2 option in '93-94. that year the bulls made it to the semis, the pacers 1 game from the finals. the pacers and bulls rosters in '93-94 were very similar across the board yet who's team made it farther in the postseason? since this is a message board, why not instead of just calling opinions ridiculous, state your own. as for the age, at 35 reggie was averaging 19ppg while leading the pacers to the nba finals against the lakers while pippen's blazers were getting swept in round 1.

give reggie a sidekick as good as pippen and all of a sudden the pacers have multiple rings. fact is, reggie was the only star on those pacers teams and was still able to lead or help lead the pacers to 7 ecf and a finals appearance. reggie was a better leader and sustained his greatness for a much longer period of time. yes, it can argued that reggie was better than pippen.

cdash
11-08-2010, 07:13 PM
yes, it can argued that reggie was better than pippen.

Not rationally. Look, I love Reggie as much as the next guy, but even I am not delusional enough to think that he was a better player than Pippen. If you watched any basketball in the 90s, this is a no contest.

croz24
11-08-2010, 07:27 PM
Not rationally. Look, I love Reggie as much as the next guy, but even I am not delusional enough to think that he was a better player than Pippen. If you watched any basketball in the 90s, this is a no contest.

yes, rationally it can when you consider the fact that pippen had jordan and reggie had...........rik smits? and then when you take mj out of the equation, reggie's teams performed better.

cdash
11-08-2010, 07:30 PM
yes, rationally it can when you consider the fact that pippen had jordan and reggie had...........rik smits? and then when you take mj out of the equation, reggie's teams performed better.

More valuable to his franchise...you absolutely have an argument. As a better player, I really don't think so.

dal9
11-08-2010, 08:42 PM
what is this, Bulls Digest?



but seriously Pippen was probably better than Miller, depending on how much you value D and passing, but Reggie beat him in PPG, 3P %, FT % and they basically tied in FG%--and all the while Reggie was generally getting D'd up by the best defender on the other team, so I don't think its crazy to think that Reggie was better.


Especially on a Pacers site, dammit!

:boomer:

xBulletproof
11-08-2010, 10:15 PM
No, no, no. There's no argument that can be made by a sane person to claim Reggie was better than Pippen. None. There was only one thing Reggie was better than Pippen at, shooting. That's it, that's the entire and complete list.

You claim Pippen was mediocre after he left the Bulls, I guess if you consider 14 points, 6 assists, 6 rebounds, and 2 steals per game while making the All Defense 1st team ... "mediocre".

Just matching up two teams and saying since Team A did better than Team B equals Team A's best player is better, is a flawed argument. Especially when the Bulls lost to the same team the Pacers did in the playoffs, in a 7 game series as well. Only difference is they played them earlier in the playoffs than the Pacers did, and the only reason the Pacers got that far was because they were lucky and played the Atlanta Hawks without Dominique Wilkins. Oh, and in that season the Bulls won 55 games in the regular season, the Pacers won 47. Without Jordan.

Psycho T
11-08-2010, 11:16 PM
Pippen ( like most great defenders ) take delight in shutting down their opponent. To him making stops on defense was as satisfying if not more satisfying than scoring. Thats the mentality you have to have if you want to play defense. It isnt something that can be flipped on or off.. you either do it or you dont and Pippen was one of those guys that did it.

Defense is how you get the crowd into the game or take them out of the game.

Brad8888
11-09-2010, 07:00 PM
Watching those videos makes me truly miss the NBA from the 1990's. The physicality was much more intense, and offensive performance was far more difficult as a result, because it was easier to play effective defense then with more contact being permitted.

I really, really miss those days, and not just because the Pacers became a factor during that time, and ended up as one of the more physical teams ultimately. It was just a better brand of basketball in my view. That is probably why I find what passes for current day acceptable defensive performance to be so lackluster.

beast23
11-09-2010, 07:23 PM
I would probably go as far to say that if a magic wand would have exchanged Pippen and McKey that the Pacers would have a couple of championship banners hanging in the rafters at Conseco.

Hibbert
11-09-2010, 07:33 PM
When the game is on the line and the clock is winding down, in whose hands do you want the basketball? Reggie or Scottie? Go Pacers

xBulletproof
11-09-2010, 07:52 PM
When the game is on the line and the clock is winding down, in whose hands do you want the basketball? Reggie or Scottie? Go Pacers

If the other team has the ball, who do you want guarding the other teams best player? It doesn't even matter if that guy is a 1-5, it's going to be Pippen.

Hibbert
11-09-2010, 08:32 PM
If the other team has the ball, who do you want guarding the other teams best player? It doesn't even matter if that guy is a 1-5, it's going to be Pippen.

Reggie Miller came into the league the same time as Pippen, however Miller gets much less recognition despite being one of the best clutch performers the league has ever seen. Maybe it’s because Reggie played in Indiana while Pippen played in Chicago, or because Reggie never won a title. Nonetheless, Miller had the ability to put a team on his back late in the game, and get it done. Pippen wasn’t that kind of player. I believe Miller and Pippen are basically on the same level when it comes to all-time status. Miller could carry a team on his back, but he never won a title; Pippen could complement a superstar which allowed him to win six titles, but Pippen gets much more recognition. Reality is Pippen benefited greatly playing alongside the greatest player of all time, under the greatest coach of all time, in one of the world’s biggest markets. I’m sure Pippen would’ve been a multiple time all star had he played alongside a mediocre supporting cast, but he wouldn’t have been a top 50 player of all time. I believe hall of fame should be only for the five or six greatest players per era, with a few exceptions, not letting in every player who was simply great or really good. While Pippen was a great player, he certainly wasn’t in the top five or six players to play in the early to mid 90s. Pippen’s prime lasted from the 90-91 season to the 96-97 season. In that span, Pippen averaged 20 points, 7.4 rebounds, and 5.9 assists, those are impressive numbers but not top five or six during his era. Unfortunately for Scottie Pippen, the era he played in was one of the NBA’s greatest, and he’s definitely not one of the greatest of that era by my standards. To list a few who were certainly better than Pippen, Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, David Robinson, and Hakeem Olajuwon, not to mention Michael Jordan. Those six are considered to be among the top 25 players to ever play the game. Then there’s the second tier of Hall of Famers, one that includes John Stockton, Reggie Miller, and Pippen. Stockton was inducted to the Hall of Fame last year, and is the all time leader in assists, and steals, undoubtedly a Hall of Famer. I believe Reggie Miller should go in on the first ballot, just like Pippen did. Pippen was a top 10 player of his era, but not in that upper tier of five or six guys, therefore not one of greatest players of his era, but a great player who played in one of basketball’s best times. Scottie Pippen was a great player, he had a great career, but the bottom line is Scottie Pippen wouldn’t be celebrated the way he is today had he not played with Michael Jordan. Pippen came to the league in a perfect situation, had he been asked to carry a team on his back his whole career, Pippen would be ring-less. We saw it when Jordan left basketball, Pippen was asked to carry the team, and he knew he couldn’t do it. I’m not saying Pippen isn’t a Hall of Famer, but he wasn’t a top 50 player, he wasn’t one of the greatest of his era, he wasn’t a clutch player, he was a product of the great Michael Jordan. Scottie Pippen was a side kick, Michael Jordan's sidekick. Reggie Miller was a leader, the team's number 1 option, he was and is Indiana Pacers basketball. When I or anyone think of the Pacers, the first thing to come to mind is Reggie Miller and when I think of the Bulls, the first thing that comes to mind is Michael Jordan. Even still, Scottie Pippen, just like as most suggest on here, is better than Reggie and gets more recognition than Reggie. Twenty-five points in the fourth quarter against the Knicks in the 1994 playoffs, eight points in 8.9 seconds against the Knicks a year later, the game-winning three over Michael Jordan in 1998, and the 40-footer and double-handed driving dunk against the Nets in 2002. That's Reggie. What would Scottie be if he was never on the same team as Michael Jordan? What about if Reggie played on the same team as Jordan? Pippen gained his "legend" cause of Jordan, Reggie did it all on his own. Who would win in a 1 on 1 pickup, make it-take it game between Reggie and Scottie? Reggie would, Scottie wouldn't even get a chance to shoot. Reggie, IMHO, was and is and always will be the better player.

spreedom
11-09-2010, 09:01 PM
Who would win in a 1 on 1 pickup, make it-take it game between Reggie and Scottie? Reggie would, Scottie wouldn't even get a chance to shoot. Reggie, IMHO, was and is and always will be the better player.


All of the rest of your points are "woulda, coulda, shoulda" in my book so I can't really tell you that you're wrong because those are mostly strictly hypotheticals. But this last point really confused me.

Reggie would get absolutely destroyed by Scottie in a game of one-on-one. It would be the most one-sided game between any two star players in the last 50 years. Reggie scored and thrived on movement without the ball and picking his spots (albeit at a very high volume). But if he is at the top of the key with Pippen guarding him, the ONLY way he scores is by lofting lazy threes over Scottie. He won't be able to beat him off the dribble, drive by him, or even just make one small move into a midrange J. Pippen's length and defensive IQ would smother Reggie into oblivion.

On the other hand, Pippen gets the ball at the top of the key, turns his back to the basket, and backs Reggie up 10 straight times and gets an easy shot right over the top each time. He's way too big and strong and Reggie was WAY too poor of a man-to-man defender for it to end any other way.



I'm all for everyone having the right to an opinion, but I think it's ridiculously homerish and pretty naive to think that Reggie Miller was ever a sliver the all-around player Pippen was. Reggie's a top 50 player, Pippen's a top 20-25. And there's a HUGE gap if you ask me.

Hibbert
11-09-2010, 09:54 PM
All of the rest of your points are "woulda, coulda, shoulda" in my book so I can't really tell you that you're wrong because those are mostly strictly hypotheticals. But this last point really confused me.

Reggie would get absolutely destroyed by Scottie in a game of one-on-one. It would be the most one-sided game between any two star players in the last 50 years. Reggie scored and thrived on movement without the ball and picking his spots (albeit at a very high volume). But if he is at the top of the key with Pippen guarding him, the ONLY way he scores is by lofting lazy threes over Scottie. He won't be able to beat him off the dribble, drive by him, or even just make one small move into a midrange J. Pippen's length and defensive IQ would smother Reggie into oblivion.

On the other hand, Pippen gets the ball at the top of the key, turns his back to the basket, and backs Reggie up 10 straight times and gets an easy shot right over the top each time. He's way too big and strong and Reggie was WAY too poor of a man-to-man defender for it to end any other way.



I'm all for everyone having the right to an opinion, but I think it's ridiculously homerish and pretty naive to think that Reggie Miller was ever a sliver the all-around player Pippen was. Reggie's a top 50 player, Pippen's a top 20-25. And there's a HUGE gap if you ask me.

haha. Reggie would shoot on Pippen til the game was over. Pippen top 20-25 of all time? You know nothing about basketball if you think this. If you read my post you would see that I agreed that Pippen was a very good player and even better all around player than Reggie but one on one Pippen would never get the ball back.

xBulletproof
11-09-2010, 10:33 PM
Holy crap, I'm not even going to try to read that block of text. Goodness.

vnzla81
11-09-2010, 10:41 PM
Holy crap, I'm not even going to try to read that block of text. Goodness.

same here :D

beast23
11-09-2010, 10:49 PM
Holy crap, I'm not even going to try to read that block of text. Goodness.ditto.

Mr. Hibbert... paragraphs are your friends.

quinnthology
11-09-2010, 11:18 PM
haha. Reggie would shoot on Pippen til the game was over. Pippen top 20-25 of all time? You know nothing about basketball if you think this.

Most people know nothing, then. Scottie was better than Jordan at most things, not just Reggie. The point isn't that Reggie would be more clutch for a team in the end of the game. The point is that if you had Scottie instead of Reggie, it wouldn't come down to the end of the game.

croz24
11-10-2010, 01:36 AM
reggie miller is arguably the most efficient scorer of all time. this can not be argued based on any offensive efficiency ratings one would like to use. people need to understand that the most shots reggie averaged per game in a season was 15.7, and that season reggie averaged 24.6ppg. however, in the one season during pippen's prime between 91-98 where he averaged less than 16fga at 15.8fga, he averaged 19.4ppg. basketball-reference.com should be you all's friend. look up the efficiencies. look up career points per shot numbers. look up all time true shooting percentages. reggie miller is right there with the likes of jordan, magic, wilt, bird, etc. but reggie's greatness came from the fact that he deferred until absolutely necessary. there is no stat for that. and it is without question that had reggie attempted anywhere close to michael jordan's 22.9fga, he would be regarded as one of the greatest scorers in nba history. but again, people don't bother talking about reggie deferring to teammates as one of his great strengths as a player. reggie and pippen are both hall of famers, but i would take reggie over pippen every day of the weak as my franchise player. pippen was the ultimate sidekick.

here's a neat stat for you concerning 3 of the all time greats...
jordan's career points per shot = 1.314
pippen's career points per shot = 1.211
reggie's career points per shot = 1.444

xBulletproof
11-10-2010, 02:07 AM
I'm well aware of the efficiencies.

What you're seemingly not aware of, is that offense is only half of the game. Pippen was still a very good offensive player. In his prime he was shooting over 50% from the field, and scoring 22 points per game. Same as Reggie except the 3 point shooting. However on the other half of the court, Reggie isn't in the same stratosphere as Pippen. That's completely ignoring that Pippen could create for others on offense, which eliminates some of your idea of Reggie being a superior player on that end even.

You say Reggie took less shots because he "deferred" to teammates? I say it was because he was on a team that played at a very slow pace, and even then Reggie needed plays called for him because he needed picks set from Dale, and teammates to help him get his shot off. He was not a guy you could give the ball to and just watch him go.

Pippen is only viewed as the "ultimate sidekick" because he played with Jordan. If he played anywhere else he'd have pushed that team towards the top of the league and would be considered with all the other greats of his time without this silly label from the fans. I guarantee you that players, and coaches of that era do not see him in the same fashion.

croz24
11-10-2010, 02:55 AM
good thing it's a team game then huh? when people talk about the most clutch players in the history of the nba is it pippen or reggie's name on the list? when people talk about the greatest off-ball movers in history of the game and thus setting themselves up for open shots (which is an individual talent utilized within the flow of the offense) who's at the top of the list pippen or reggie? when they talk about greatest 3 point shooters and greatest shooters in the history of the game is it pippen or reggie who they talk about? when they talk about a player taking a franchise on its back for 18 years to heights it had never seen in its nba history is it pippen or reggie that they'd bring up? when they talk about the greatest sidekicks in the game it's pippen they bring up. reggie's performances are still referenced on shows like sportscenter and during broadcasts. are pippens?

pippen is one of the best defenders in history but he wasn't even the best defender on his team. when reggie was asked or needed to score, few in the history of the game were better. can't say the same for pippen. if you are aware of the efficiencies, then you'd also understand that reggie was so great that he compared favorably to the greatest BIG men this game has seen which is underheard of for a guard.

can't believe i have to defend reggie on a pacers message board.

ChrisAndersen
11-10-2010, 03:00 AM
horace grant was better than anything reggie had as a number 2 option in '93-94. that year the bulls made it to the semis, the pacers 1 game from the finals. the pacers and bulls rosters in '93-94 were very similar across the board yet who's team made it farther in the postseason? since this is a message board, why not instead of just calling opinions ridiculous, state your own. as for the age, at 35 reggie was averaging 19ppg while leading the pacers to the nba finals against the lakers while pippen's blazers were getting swept in round 1.

give reggie a sidekick as good as pippen and all of a sudden the pacers have multiple rings. fact is, reggie was the only star on those pacers teams and was still able to lead or help lead the pacers to 7 ecf and a finals appearance. reggie was a better leader and sustained his greatness for a much longer period of time. yes, it can argued that reggie was better than pippen.

Gotta say pretty much everything you wrote is garbage. It cannot be argued that Reggie Miller was better than Pippen. In fact there's no doubt in my mind Reggie Miller himself will tell you he's not in Pippen's class as a basketball player. Reggie Miller was the better long distance shooter and that's about it. What about rebounding? Playmaking? Defense? Pippen murders Reggie in all of those aspects. Pippen was the complete player. He did everything while Reggie was one dimensional. You say Pippen had the better team in '94? How?

Think about it. Reggie had to have the better team to mask the deficiencies in his game. Did Reggie have to rebound? Nope. He had the Davis brothers and Smits for that. Did Reggie have to create for anyone? Nope. Did Reggie have to play defense on a variety of positions? Nope. All Reggie had to do was come off screens and shoot the ball. That's why he had so much longevity in his career. He NEVER did any dirty work. He never had to battle in the trenches.

Meanwhile in '94 the Bulls replaced the G.O.A.T with some unknown CBA scrub named Pete Myers as the starting 2 guard and the Bulls didn't miss a beat. Everyone talks about the Bulls winning 55 games that season. I marvel more about the fact that Pippen missed 10 games that season from ankle surgery and he still took the Bulls to a 55 win season. Can you imagine if he didn't miss those 10 games? We could be talking about a 60+ win season and homecourt advantage in the playoffs which is the only thing that separated those Bulls and Knicks teams. Pippen was his team's PG and playmaker, their best defender, their best rebounder. He had so many more responsibilities than Reggie it's ridiculous. Put Reggie Miller on that Bulls team and they instantly get worse in every aspect.

ChrisAndersen
11-10-2010, 03:10 AM
good thing it's a team game then huh? when people talk about the most clutch players in the history of the nba is it pippen or reggie's name on the list? when people talk about the greatest off-ball movers in history of the game and thus setting themselves up for open shots (which is an individual talent utilized within the flow of the offense) who's at the top of the list pippen or reggie? when they talk about greatest 3 point shooters and greatest shooters in the history of the game is it pippen or reggie who they talk about? when they talk about a player taking a franchise on its back for 18 years to heights it had never seen in its nba history is it pippen or reggie that they'd bring up? when they talk about the greatest sidekicks in the game it's pippen they bring up. pippen is one of the best defenders in history but he wasn't even the best defender on his team. when reggie was asked or needed to score, few in the history of the game were better. can't say the same for pippen. if you are aware of the efficiencies, then you'd also understand that reggie was so great that he compared favorably to the greatest BIG men this game has seen which is underheard of for a guard.

can't believe i have to defend reggie on a pacers message board.

Let me ask you this. If your only job on the team is to mainly shoot the ball (like Reggie) shouldn't that player be more efficient than the player that has to do more? When you factor in what Pippen did on a nightly basis (score 18-20+, run the offense and create for others, grab 7-9 boards, play great defense) isn't the guy who does more going to wear down faster than the guy who just has to shoot the ball all the time and only average around 2-3 boards and a couple of assists? If Reggie Miller was in Pippen's place and exerting energy in EVERY aspect of the game do you think he would be nearly as efficient? Do you think his career would have lasted 18 years? Don't kid yourself. The answer is a resounding no.

croz24
11-10-2010, 03:44 AM
^^^
and bj armstrong and horace grant were all-stars that year.

thefeistyone
11-10-2010, 12:21 PM
First off I'll start by saying it's a bad comparison. I honestly don't think their game mirror each other very much if any.

2nd I would say that when most people think of Pippen he will always be remembered as Jordan's side kick. He didn't have enough of a career separate from MJ to be judged on what kind of solo career he would have had. Jordan obviously made everyone on the team better and Pippen prospered a lot of years as a result.

I think when someone call Granger a pippen type player what they really could mean is that he's not a leader. He's more of a number 2 man. It's not a knock on Granger or Pippen really.

One of the above post mentioned that Pippen was a lock down defender. It was his job to guard the other teams best players almost every night. It's a whole lot easier to do this when you don't have to worry about offense. Maybe we could hope to get this out of Brandon Rush down the road.

spreedom
11-10-2010, 12:50 PM
haha. Reggie would shoot on Pippen til the game was over. Pippen top 20-25 of all time? You know nothing about basketball if you think this. If you read my post you would see that I agreed that Pippen was a very good player and even better all around player than Reggie but one on one Pippen would never get the ball back.


What have we learned? The truest determining factor in a debate on who the better player is would have to be a game of "make it, take it" one-on-one where whichever player you like better gets the ball first.

Now we know, and....

http://blog.mattalgren.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/knowing-is-half-the-battle.jpg

Hibbert
11-10-2010, 01:47 PM
Now the question is who would win 1 on 1.....Scottie Pippen or Mike "the myth" Dunleavy?

Taterhead
11-10-2010, 01:57 PM
Reggie Miller came into the league the same time as Pippen, however Miller gets much less recognition despite being one of the best clutch performers the league has ever seen. Maybe it’s because Reggie played in Indiana while Pippen played in Chicago, or because Reggie never won a title. Nonetheless, Miller had the ability to put a team on his back late in the game, and get it done. Pippen wasn’t that kind of player. I believe Miller and Pippen are basically on the same level when it comes to all-time status. Miller could carry a team on his back, but he never won a title; Pippen could complement a superstar which allowed him to win six titles, but Pippen gets much more recognition. Reality is Pippen benefited greatly playing alongside the greatest player of all time, under the greatest coach of all time, in one of the world’s biggest markets. I’m sure Pippen would’ve been a multiple time all star had he played alongside a mediocre supporting cast, but he wouldn’t have been a top 50 player of all time. I believe hall of fame should be only for the five or six greatest players per era, with a few exceptions, not letting in every player who was simply great or really good. While Pippen was a great player, he certainly wasn’t in the top five or six players to play in the early to mid 90s. Pippen’s prime lasted from the 90-91 season to the 96-97 season. In that span, Pippen averaged 20 points, 7.4 rebounds, and 5.9 assists, those are impressive numbers but not top five or six during his era. Unfortunately for Scottie Pippen, the era he played in was one of the NBA’s greatest, and he’s definitely not one of the greatest of that era by my standards. To list a few who were certainly better than Pippen, Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, David Robinson, and Hakeem Olajuwon, not to mention Michael Jordan. Those six are considered to be among the top 25 players to ever play the game. Then there’s the second tier of Hall of Famers, one that includes John Stockton, Reggie Miller, and Pippen. Stockton was inducted to the Hall of Fame last year, and is the all time leader in assists, and steals, undoubtedly a Hall of Famer. I believe Reggie Miller should go in on the first ballot, just like Pippen did. Pippen was a top 10 player of his era, but not in that upper tier of five or six guys, therefore not one of greatest players of his era, but a great player who played in one of basketball’s best times. Scottie Pippen was a great player, he had a great career, but the bottom line is Scottie Pippen wouldn’t be celebrated the way he is today had he not played with Michael Jordan. Pippen came to the league in a perfect situation, had he been asked to carry a team on his back his whole career, Pippen would be ring-less. We saw it when Jordan left basketball, Pippen was asked to carry the team, and he knew he couldn’t do it. I’m not saying Pippen isn’t a Hall of Famer, but he wasn’t a top 50 player, he wasn’t one of the greatest of his era, he wasn’t a clutch player, he was a product of the great Michael Jordan. Scottie Pippen was a side kick, Michael Jordan's sidekick. Reggie Miller was a leader, the team's number 1 option, he was and is Indiana Pacers basketball. When I or anyone think of the Pacers, the first thing to come to mind is Reggie Miller and when I think of the Bulls, the first thing that comes to mind is Michael Jordan. Even still, Scottie Pippen, just like as most suggest on here, is better than Reggie and gets more recognition than Reggie. Twenty-five points in the fourth quarter against the Knicks in the 1994 playoffs, eight points in 8.9 seconds against the Knicks a year later, the game-winning three over Michael Jordan in 1998, and the 40-footer and double-handed driving dunk against the Nets in 2002. That's Reggie. What would Scottie be if he was never on the same team as Michael Jordan? What about if Reggie played on the same team as Jordan? Pippen gained his "legend" cause of Jordan, Reggie did it all on his own. Who would win in a 1 on 1 pickup, make it-take it game between Reggie and Scottie? Reggie would, Scottie wouldn't even get a chance to shoot. Reggie, IMHO, was and is and always will be the better player.

Reggie couldn't handle the ball well enough to score on Scottie Pippen ONCE, LMAO. He would get skunked. Pippen was quicker, bigger, stronger, and way too athletic. Reggie couldn't even score on him without a screen and there is no chance he could guard him either. You don't know what you are talking about. And I love Reggie Miller.

Scottie Pippen is the most disrespected player in NBA history. It's comical.


First off I'll start by saying it's a bad comparison. I honestly don't think their game mirror each other very much if any.

2nd I would say that when most people think of Pippen he will always be remembered as Jordan's side kick. He didn't have enough of a career separate from MJ to be judged on what kind of solo career he would have had. Jordan obviously made everyone on the team better and Pippen prospered a lot of years as a result.

I think when someone call Granger a pippen type player what they really could mean is that he's not a leader. He's more of a number 2 man. It's not a knock on Granger or Pippen really.

One of the above post mentioned that Pippen was a lock down defender. It was his job to guard the other teams best players almost every night. It's a whole lot easier to do this when you don't have to worry about offense. Maybe we could hope to get this out of Brandon Rush down the road.

OK, but he was still a 20 a game type of scorer who could score in many different ways. And he was a tremendous passer and rebounder as well. He was hardly a defensive specialist. He was just that good.


good thing it's a team game then huh? when people talk about the most clutch players in the history of the nba is it pippen or reggie's name on the list? when people talk about the greatest off-ball movers in history of the game and thus setting themselves up for open shots (which is an individual talent utilized within the flow of the offense) who's at the top of the list pippen or reggie? when they talk about greatest 3 point shooters and greatest shooters in the history of the game is it pippen or reggie who they talk about? when they talk about a player taking a franchise on its back for 18 years to heights it had never seen in its nba history is it pippen or reggie that they'd bring up? when they talk about the greatest sidekicks in the game it's pippen they bring up. reggie's performances are still referenced on shows like sportscenter and during broadcasts. are pippens?

pippen is one of the best defenders in history but he wasn't even the best defender on his team. when reggie was asked or needed to score, few in the history of the game were better. can't say the same for pippen. if you are aware of the efficiencies, then you'd also understand that reggie was so great that he compared favorably to the greatest BIG men this game has seen which is underheard of for a guard.

can't believe i have to defend reggie on a pacers message board.

Seriously?

Reggie had to have the entire team help him get a good shot. You needed 2 guys setting screens, and another to deliver a perfect pass to him as he curled off a screen. He was very limited with the ball in his hands.

Pippen on the other hand could still give you 20 a night, plus rebound like a PF, give you 5 assists, completely shut down the other teams best player.

Reggie was great at very few things honestly. He could shoot and move without the ball. He was not a great passer, defender, or rebounder. He struggled to score one on one. He struggled handling the ball at time. He was clutch. But when you play with Jordan it's safe to say you don't get many opportunities to be clutch.

Pippen won a lot of games for the Bulls with his defense though. That's harder than being clutch.

Eleazar
11-10-2010, 02:05 PM
Gotta say pretty much everything you wrote is garbage. It cannot be argued that Reggie Miller was better than Pippen. In fact there's no doubt in my mind Reggie Miller himself will tell you he's not in Pippen's class as a basketball player. Reggie Miller was the better long distance shooter and that's about it. What about rebounding? Playmaking? Defense? Pippen murders Reggie in all of those aspects. Pippen was the complete player. He did everything while Reggie was one dimensional. You say Pippen had the better team in '94? How?

Think about it. Reggie had to have the better team to mask the deficiencies in his game. Did Reggie have to rebound? Nope. He had the Davis brothers and Smits for that. Did Reggie have to create for anyone? Nope. Did Reggie have to play defense on a variety of positions? Nope. All Reggie had to do was come off screens and shoot the ball. That's why he had so much longevity in his career. He NEVER did any dirty work. He never had to battle in the trenches.

Meanwhile in '94 the Bulls replaced the G.O.A.T with some unknown CBA scrub named Pete Myers as the starting 2 guard and the Bulls didn't miss a beat. Everyone talks about the Bulls winning 55 games that season. I marvel more about the fact that Pippen missed 10 games that season from ankle surgery and he still took the Bulls to a 55 win season. Can you imagine if he didn't miss those 10 games? We could be talking about a 60+ win season and homecourt advantage in the playoffs which is the only thing that separated those Bulls and Knicks teams. Pippen was his team's PG and playmaker, their best defender, their best rebounder. He had so many more responsibilities than Reggie it's ridiculous. Put Reggie Miller on that Bulls team and they instantly get worse in every aspect.

You lost me at playmaker. You are seriously going to say that Pippen was a better playmaker despite the list of things that Miller did hat not even Micheal Jordan ever did. Unless you are ready to say Pippen was as big or a bigger play maker than Jordan you have already lost your argument.

ChrisAndersen
11-10-2010, 02:29 PM
You lost me at playmaker. You are seriously going to say that Pippen was a better playmaker despite the list of things that Miller did hat not even Micheal Jordan ever did. Unless you are ready to say Pippen was as big or a bigger play maker than Jordan you have already lost your argument.

:confused: You must be getting confused about the definition of playmaking. A playmaker is someone who can handle the ball, break down the defense and create for his teammates getting them good shots. Reggie's ball-handling ability was average and his court vision wasn't anything to write home about either. Pippen was, by far, the better playmaker. He was basically the point guard of his team. Reggie was good at one thing and one thing only....shooting the ball. Pippen basically matched Reggie in points and destroys him in every other aspect of the game. This cannot be denied which is why it's a no-brainer who the better player was.

The mark of a great player is when one aspect of his game is off he can turn to something else and still make an impact on the game (think about Kobe Bryant in Game 7 of the Finals last year hitting the boards). When Reggie didn't have it going offensively he offered absolutely nothing else. No rebounding, no great defensive plays, no playmaking (look at Game 6 and 7 of the '98 ECF as a great example). Reggie may as well been a ghost out there in the 2nd half of Game 7. Meanwhile in Game 7 Pippen's shot was off (as well as Jordan's) but he was hitting the boards like a demon and killed us in the final minutes of that game.

Reggie himself said it best..."Pippen can score only five points and still dominate a basketball game."

Eleazar
11-10-2010, 04:14 PM
Scottie Pippen is the most disrespected player in NBA history. It's comical.



Yeah being considered a top 50 player all-time by just about everyone despite not being the best player on his team. Yeah he is disrespected. Disrespected and Pippen don't belong in the same sentence together.

Also even though Reggie was famous and most well known for his shooting he wasn't completely deficient in every other aspect. Yes, Pippen was a more complete player than Reggie, but being more complete doesn't automatically make you better. Miller was competent enough at defense for the team to have him guard Jordan.

ballism
11-10-2010, 09:21 PM
It's very disturbing to me. Maybe time has erased a little of my memory of Pippen, so anyone old enough to have seen his career, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall a single flaw in his game.

Pippen could have been an All Star at PG, SG, SF, or PF.



Also, in the words of Dirk Nowitzki (few years back in a german interview), Pippen was 'one of the biggest d..ks' on the court he's ever seen. Granger just doesn't seem to have that 'eff you' mode and intimidation - maybe he's too friendly/intelligent/idk. Even compared to Reggie, i could never imagine going into choke signs with Spike Lee.

bellisimo
11-11-2010, 06:16 AM
Pipper will forever haunt me in my dreams the way he abused Mark Jackson in the playoffs...

Future_NBA_Player
11-11-2010, 04:58 PM
I think he's probably the best defender I've ever seen play. He was great on the ball, but probably the best double teamer ever. he was also extremely smart defensively

I think that he was a solid defender but, your crazy thinking he was the best ever. Ron Artest, Shane Battier, and Andrei Kirilenko are better defenders already. Also anybody can be a good defender when they dont have to worry about offense, since MJ was on the team!!!:box:


BETTER PAST DEFENDERS: GARY PAYTON, JOHN STARKS, DENNIS RODMAN, DIKEMBE MUTOMBO, AND THE ADMIRAL.

xBulletproof
11-11-2010, 05:14 PM
I think that he was a solid defender but, your crazy thinking he was the best ever. Ron Artest, Shane Battier, and Andrei Kirilenko are better defenders already. Also anybody can be a good defender when they dont have to worry about offense, since MJ was on the team!!!:box:


BETTER PAST DEFENDERS: GARY PAYTON, JOHN STARKS, DENNIS RODMAN, DIKEMBE MUTOMBO, AND THE ADMIRAL.

Be honest, are you old enough to have watched NBA in the 90's and remember it? My immediate reaction to this was that it sounds like someone who wasn't, and is just going off other people's opinions or what they read or heard from their friends.

cdash
11-11-2010, 05:40 PM
Be honest, are you old enough to have watched NBA in the 90's and remember it? My immediate reaction to this was that it sounds like someone who wasn't, and is just going off other people's opinions or what they read or heard from their friends.

Yeah I thought the same thing. Pippen is the gold standard for all perimeter defenders.

pacer4ever
11-11-2010, 06:10 PM
I think that he was a solid defender but, your crazy thinking he was the best ever. Ron Artest, Shane Battier, and Andrei Kirilenko are better defenders already. Also anybody can be a good defender when they dont have to worry about offense, since MJ was on the team!!!:box:


BETTER PAST DEFENDERS: GARY PAYTON, JOHN STARKS, DENNIS RODMAN, DIKEMBE MUTOMBO, AND THE ADMIRAL.

AK47 really wow LOL

cordobes
11-11-2010, 07:03 PM
I don't know about the best ever, but Pippen and Jordan were so good defending the perimeter that the Bulls could get away with Rodman defending Shaq and stuff like that. It was a nightmare to find a way of making an entry post pass - their pressure, traps, and harassment on passes were tremendous. Pippen's defense on Magic in the Finals and then on Mark Jackson in the ECF was a joy to watch.

Hibbert
11-11-2010, 08:15 PM
If Scottie Pippen is so great than why in the 93-94 conference semi-final playoff game against their rival Knicks, down 2 with 2 seconds left on the clock, when coach Jackson made a play for Toni Kukoc taking the last shot did Pippen refuse to go back in the game and play? Truly great players NEVER do that. One of you non Pacer, Reggie hating fools give me an explaination for this. You never saw Reggie do this. Also this Magic shutdown you all are reffering to saying that Scottie did...Magic posted 14pts 10 as in game 2, 22 and 10 in game 3, 22 and 11 in game 4, 16 and 20 in game 5. 5 double doubles in a row in the playoffs doesn't seem like Magic was shut down, that sure was a joy to watch wasn't it?
G Pts Rebs Ast
1* 19 10 11
2* 14 7 10
3* 22 6 10
4* 22 6 11
5* 16 11 20

Johnsons's 1991 NBA Finals Stats: 18.6ppg 8.0rpg 12.4apg
Johnson's 1991 NBA Finals stats while guarded by Pippen: 18.5ppg 7.5rpg 12.8apg
Johnson's 1990-91 Regular season stats: 19.4ppg 7.0apg 12.5apg

cordobes
11-11-2010, 09:14 PM
If Scottie Pippen is so great than why in the 93-94 conference semi-final playoff game against their rival Knicks, down 2 with 2 seconds left on the clock, when coach Jackson made a play for Toni Kukoc taking the last shot did Pippen refuse to go back in the game and play? Truly great players NEVER do that. One of you non Pacer, Reggie hating fools give me an explaination for this. You never saw Reggie do this. Also this Magic shutdown you all are reffering to saying that Scottie did...Magic posted 14pts 10 as in game 2, 22 and 10 in game 3, 22 and 11 in game 4, 16 and 20 in game 5. 5 double doubles in a row in the playoffs doesn't seem like Magic was shut down, that sure was a joy to watch wasn't it?
G Pts Rebs Ast
1* 19 10 11
2* 14 7 10
3* 22 6 10
4* 22 6 11
5* 16 11 20

Johnsons's 1991 NBA Finals Stats: 18.6ppg 8.0rpg 12.4apg
Johnson's 1991 NBA Finals stats while guarded by Pippen: 18.5ppg 7.5rpg 12.8apg
Johnson's 1990-91 Regular season stats: 19.4ppg 7.0apg 12.5apg

Well, that's why I started my post writing "Pippen and Jordan were so good defending". When Jordan was into it, he was just as good as Pippen, if not better.

Anyway, nobody was capable of shutting down Magic Johnson (or Jordan). They were able to slow him down and Pippen being the one doing it allowed Jordan to stay on court without worrying about foul troubles and to save energy for the other end.

So, I don't think those numbers help your case. Magic averaged 37mpg that season. In the finals, he probably averaged about 46mpg. Holding his production to the same in spite of him playing 8 more minutes is terrific defense. Maybe more importantly, Pippen turned Magic into an inefficient scorer - when guarded by Pippen, Magic shot 39% from the field. Pippen defended Magic as well as anyone had done it before.

Hibbert
11-11-2010, 09:26 PM
Well, that's why I started my post writing "Pippen and Jordan were so good defending". When Jordan was into it, he was just as good as Pippen, if not better.

Anyway, nobody was capable of shutting down Magic Johnson (or Jordan). They were able to slow him down and Pippen being the one doing it allowed Jordan to stay on court without worrying about foul troubles and to save energy for the other end.

So, I don't think those numbers help your case. Magic averaged 37mpg that season. In the finals, he probably averaged about 46mpg. Holding his production to the same in spite of him playing 8 more minutes is terrific defense. Maybe more importantly, Pippen turned Magic into an inefficient scorer - when guarded by Pippen, Magic shot 39% from the field. Pippen defended Magic as well as anyone had done it before.

He averaged 42 min/gm in those playoffs, every game was a double double(5) or triple double(2). He was definitely not shut down. Game 5 Lakers were without James Worthy and Byron Scott and Magic still posted a triple double. He was not slowed one bit.

d_c
11-11-2010, 09:28 PM
Watching those videos makes me truly miss the NBA from the 1990's. The physicality was much more intense, and offensive performance was far more difficult as a result, because it was easier to play effective defense then with more contact being permitted.

I really, really miss those days, and not just because the Pacers became a factor during that time, and ended up as one of the more physical teams ultimately. It was just a better brand of basketball in my view. That is probably why I find what passes for current day acceptable defensive performance to be so lackluster.

The physicality allowed back then is why, defensively, Pippen was able to abuse Mark Jackson.

No way Pippen would've been able to do that against Jackson under the current set of rules.

cordobes
11-11-2010, 09:39 PM
He averaged 42 min/gm in those playoffs, every game was a double double(5) or triple double(2). He was definitely not shut down. Game 5 Lakers were without James Worthy and Byron Scott and Magic still posted a triple double. He was not slowed one bit.

Pippen didn't defend Magic Johnson during the entire playoffs, only in the last 4 games of the finals. In those games, Magic averaged 46.3 mpg. During the regular season, he averaged 37.1 mpg.

From your post:


Johnson's 1991 NBA Finals stats while guarded by Pippen: 18.5ppg 7.5rpg 12.8apg
Johnson's 1990-91 Regular season stats: 19.4ppg 7.0apg 12.5apg

So, Magic needed to play 9 more minutes to put up the same stats while seeing his shooting efficiency declining from 0.48 to 0.39.

I'm not a big fan of this kind of statistic approach, but it clearly shows Pippen slowed Magic down and quite a bit.

Hibbert
11-11-2010, 09:46 PM
Pippen didn't defend Magic Johnson during the entire playoffs, only in the last 4 games of the finals. In those games, Magic averaged 46.3 mpg. During the regular season, he averaged 37.1 mpg.

From your post:

So, Magic needed to play 9 more minutes to put up the same stats while seeing his shooting efficiency declining from 0.48 to 0.39.

I'm not a big fan of this kind of statistic approach, but it clearly shows Pippen slowed Magic down and quite a bit.

Done talking about Shock G here, I'm not a big fan of it either. Magic still got his.

pacerwaala
11-12-2010, 12:25 AM
Pipper will forever haunt me in my dreams the way he FOULED Mark Jackson in the playoffs...

Fixed

ChrisAndersen
11-12-2010, 12:31 AM
I think that he was a solid defender but, your crazy thinking he was the best ever. Ron Artest, Shane Battier, and Andrei Kirilenko are better defenders already. Also anybody can be a good defender when they dont have to worry about offense, since MJ was on the team!!!:box:


BETTER PAST DEFENDERS: GARY PAYTON, JOHN STARKS, DENNIS RODMAN, DIKEMBE MUTOMBO, AND THE ADMIRAL.

Wow :laugh:

Solid defender? Pippen did everything on defense that a player could possibly do. Defended 1-4 if the situation called for it, steals, blocks, was probably the best help defender ever, took charges. I have never seen anyone in my entire time of watching basketball sacrifice their body and step in front of a brickhouse locomotive like Karl Malone to take a charge...not once, not twice, but 3 times in a single game during the '98 Finals. Pippen would do anything to stop an opponent from scoring. Of course he paid the price for it by killing his back and getting surgery but that's another story :laugh:

Just for the record...Pippen had his best defensive seasons when MJ was on vacation playing baseball. Was voted 1st team All-defense in '94 and '95. To put it in more perspective Pippen was surrounded by complete scrubs in 1995. No Jordan, no Horace Grant, no Dennis Rodman. He had Will Perdue as his starting center and the Bulls PFs were a joke. He took that team and had them rated as the 2nd best defense that season. He lead the entire league (centers included) in defensive rating. I believe Pippen is the only perimeter player to do it. And that's when defensive centers like Olajuwon, Robinson, Mourning, and Mutombo were around.

He headlined the first team All-Defense team 4 years straight from '94 to '97. Voted by the coaches. 1996 he had all unanimous first place votes across the board from all coaches. There's a reason he's considered as the best perimeter defender of all-time. The only player I consider a VERY close 2nd is Dennis Rodman.