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View Full Version : Star: Rush comes back as starter at guard (update: nope)



Hicks
11-07-2010, 02:56 AM
IndyStar
Mike Wells
http://www.indystar.com/article/20101107/SPORTS04/11070366/1062/SPORTS04/Rush-comes-back-as-starter-at-guard



Rush comes back as starter at guard
Suspension over, he replaces struggling Dunleavy in lineup

Indiana Pacers coach Jim O'Brien is thinking about making his first starting lineup change of the season.

O'Brien is contemplating moving Mike Dunleavy to the bench and starting Brandon Rush at shooting guard as early as Tuesday's game against the Denver Nuggets at Conseco Fieldhouse.

"We have to look seriously at Michael because he has not been real productive," O'Brien said.

Rush, last season's starting shooting guard, will make his season debut against the Nuggets after missing the first five games of the season while serving a league-mandated suspension for failing a drug test three times.

Dunleavy is struggling with what he does best: shoot the ball.

He's shooting 34.6 percent from the field, including only 24 percent on 3-pointers.

"It's a combination of things," O'Brien said. "Guys go through hot and cold spells with their shooting. He's too good of a shooter to be shooting what he's shooting now. The second thing is, we are not getting into our passing game on a regular basis. We are really, really hurting a guy like Mike when we don't do that."

Dunleavy did not practice Saturday because he's dealing with a sprained right knee. His injury is not related to the surgery he had on the same knee in March 2009.

Rush's return is allowing O'Brien to go with a four-man rotation of Dunleavy, Rush, Paul George and Danny Granger on the wing.

He wants to go with an extra player on the wing so that he can decrease Granger's playing time by nine or 10 minutes a game.

Granger is 8-of-31 from the field in the past two games.

"It'll help to have Brandon back," O'Brien said. "Brandon is going to fit in and he's going to be an important part of the rotation. This will allow Danny's minutes to decrease so he can become more effective."

No boards for Jones

Solomon Jones stands 6-10 and backs up Roy Hibbert at center. Jones, however, isn't using his height or long arms to pursue the ball.

Jones has grabbed a measly three rebounds in 58 minutes this season. That's a rebound every 19 minutes of playing time.

O'Brien has limited options off the bench at center because Jeff Foster is out two weeks with a sprained right ankle. O'Brien could go with Tyler Hansbrough or Josh McRoberts at backup center if Jones continues to have problems rebounding.

"Sol's rebounding stats aren't near what they need to be," O'Brien said. "The thing about Sol is he has a tremendous amount of IQ, but when your backup center is on the court that many minutes and he doesn't get that many rebounds, that hurts."

CableKC
11-07-2010, 03:09 AM
"Sol's rebounding stats aren't near what they need to be," O'Brien said. "The thing about Sol is he has a tremendous amount of IQ, but when your backup center is on the court at many minutes and he doesn't get that many rebounds, that hurts."
It's not like Solo's rebounding was great and then all of a sudden something changed. Solo's rebounding was never really that good to start with for a 6'
10" Big Man even before he came to the Pacers. You have to wonder why Bird signed him in the first place.

Day-V
11-07-2010, 03:37 AM
So what you're trying to say is, Dunleavy's starting?



Got it.

cdash
11-07-2010, 03:38 AM
You have to wonder why Bird signed him in the first place.

Yeah, I agree. That's the real question.

CableKC
11-07-2010, 03:52 AM
Yeah, I agree. That's the real question.
I'm guessing for his defense.....but honestly....after we got McBob....there is nothing that Solo does that McBob can't do. This question of Solo makes keeping him in favor of letting Magnum goes even more damning.

CableKC
11-07-2010, 03:55 AM
Dunleavy did not practice Saturday because he's dealing with a sprained right knee. His injury is not related to the surgery he had on the same knee in March 2009.
When did Dunleavy get a sprained ankle?

If this keeps him out for the next game...or at least limit his minutes....it should show what we have with a Granger/BRush/PG/Posey SG/SF rotation.

cinotimz
11-07-2010, 04:11 AM
Lol. Funny stuff. A week ago Brandon was the "4th wing in a 3 wing rotation".

Now he will start and be an important part of the rotation. I am still very intriqued by a wing rotation of Danny, Brandon, and Paul. Im sure the only reason Mike will really play between now and February is to try to establish some sort of trade value.

pacers74
11-07-2010, 07:28 AM
It will be interesting to see which Rush we get. Do we get the timid Rush afraid to shoot and drive the ball, or the motivated Rush we have seen in March and April. I really hope he has turned the corner and is going to play like we all think he can, but I thought that he was going to do that last year.

This is a make or break time for him. He could be the starter we all want him to be, or he could end up sitting with AJ and Lance.

Unclebuck
11-07-2010, 07:49 AM
Lol. Funny stuff. A week ago Brandon was the "4th wing in a 3 wing rotation".

Now he will start and be an important part of the rotation. I am still very intriqued by a wing rotation of Danny, Brandon, and Paul. Im sure the only reason Mike will really play between now and February is to try to establish some sort of trade value.

Things can change in a weeks time, like Dunleavy is struggling and he missed a practice with a sprained knee.

no where in the actual article does it say that Rush is starting. They are thinking and considering it

Pacerized
11-07-2010, 08:04 AM
So 2 weeks for Foster now with the sprained ankle? Is anyone else skeptical of this? We are in such need of another big man in the rotation, and JOB chooses to play Solo over Foster for the first 3 games. I really hope Foster can get healthy and contribute this season. We need someone to pick up the minutes given to Solo at the 5 and Posey at the 4. I don't think McBob or Tyler are the answer at least not at the 5, not if we're serious about being a playoff team this year. I fear that Foster may be out longer then we're being told and help won't come at the 4/5 until we reach the trade deadline.

Unclebuck
11-07-2010, 08:10 AM
I think if Rush goes into the starting lineup, that might signal the end of the motion offense. Or maybe we'll only use it on a limited basis. maybe the coches have decided that these players cannot run the motion offense

Kegboy
11-07-2010, 09:24 AM
So 2 weeks for Foster now with the sprained ankle? Is anyone else skeptical of this?

I remember hearing right after the injury that Jeff said it was the worst sprain he's ever had. Could be high-ankle, which'll take a while.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I look forward to him being back out there. At least he has the "old and slow" excuse for not doing anything.

Kegboy
11-07-2010, 09:25 AM
I think if Rush goes into the starting lineup, that might signal the end of the motion offense. Or maybe we'll only use it on a limited basis. maybe the coches have decided that these players cannot run the motion offense

I'll believe it when I see it.

[edit] Also, can we stop calling it a "motion" offense, when there's no motion to it whatsoever. I would think the Bobby Knight disciples alone would be up in arms about what we run being called motion. I thought I was gonna stab my eyes out when DC went and stood in the corner like he was Derrick McKey.

Kaufman
11-07-2010, 09:41 AM
I'll believe it when I see it.

[edit] Also, can we stop calling it a "motion" offense, when there's no motion to it whatsoever. I would think the Bobby Knight disciples alone would be up in arms about what we run being called motion. I thought I was gonna stab my eyes out when DC went and stood in the corner like he was Derrick McKey.


do you have a :link: of video footage of DC in the corner?

Brad8888
11-07-2010, 10:33 AM
do you have a :link: of video footage of DC in the corner?

I'm not sure about DC in the corner, but Paul George was completely uninvolved in the offense on one play (apparently not "effing it" with respect to following the O'Brien offense) after running to the corner and standing in place for what seemed like an eternity in a completely Brandon Rush fashion on for a 3 point he took against the Bucks. It went in, but it made me a little sick to watch our "motion"-less offense going to work with dribble penetration and a complete lack of spacing on the ball side while the defense hedged. It worked that time, but frequently it won't because most teams simply switch and send whoever is closest to the weakside corner to follow whatever wing we float over to stand there.

BlueNGold
11-07-2010, 10:39 AM
I think if Rush goes into the starting lineup, that might signal the end of the motion offense. Or maybe we'll only use it on a limited basis. maybe the coches have decided that these players cannot run the motion offense

I hope that's the conclusion. We've waited for years for them to "get it"...and I don't think it will happen for years...if at all.

I think Rush outplayed Dun last year and is now the better basketball player. Neither impress, but Rush seems to always play good defense, so I can live with that.

BringJackBack
11-07-2010, 10:44 AM
Well, hypocritical or not, I like this move. Dunleavy has obviously been a nightmare at both sides of the floor, and Brandon should come in and be a solid three point shooter and defender. I hope he does not lay en egg though.

Brandon is good at passing into the low post, and he plays by percentages there. He knows that if he passes into Roy, there is a give-or-take 55% chance of whatever shot going in. He knows that with 12 seconds on the shot clock, it would be better to get Roy the ball instead of making Danny shoot a contested three, passing it out to TJ to go "me against the world", or have Brandon go iso (which, quite frankly, I have barely ever seen him done. Hopefully we see it more).

Do you guys think that he will be more aggressive now that he knows that this is his last year to impress Bird and Morway?

BlueNGold
11-07-2010, 10:51 AM
No, I doubt he will change and become an aggressive basketball player...because he's never been that. Brandon will appear and disappear on offense as he always has done. However, his defense is pretty close to a constant. He's not going to give us 20ppg like he appears physically capable of doing...but he's still the best option we have at SG.

I'm not even sure if I'd give Dunleavy much time on the floor. I have him as the backup right now, but he now needs to prove that he's worthy of that.

Kegboy
11-07-2010, 10:55 AM
do you have a :link: of video footage of DC in the corner?

No, just my ticket, if you want me to scan and post it let me know. :flirt:

To be fair, I should have been more specific and said elbow. Didn't change the fact he was standing around without the ball in his hands, watching everybody else stand around.

jeffg-body
11-07-2010, 10:56 AM
I don't have any problem with starting Rush over Dunleavy at this point, though I was hoping that we'd have had the luxury of slowly titrating him into the starting spot until he gets his gam time conditioning down.

Kaufman
11-07-2010, 10:59 AM
titrating

reminds me of organic chemistry back in 1997 at Indiana University with Dr. Rick Gaston. C341.

Trophy
11-07-2010, 11:19 AM
I'll believe it when I see it.

Kaufman
11-07-2010, 11:23 AM
No, just my ticket, if you want me to scan and post it let me know. :flirt:

To be fair, I should have been more specific and said elbow. Didn't change the fact he was standing around without the ball in his hands, watching everybody else stand around.

yeaaaah.

i'm calling your bluff.

i'll believe it when i see it.

imawhat
11-07-2010, 11:36 AM
I think if Rush goes into the starting lineup, that might signal the end of the motion offense. Or maybe we'll only use it on a limited basis. maybe the coches have decided that these players cannot run the motion offense

Rush won a national championship at Kansas as an integral part of Bill Self's read and react motion offense.

Brandon stood and spaced the court last season because we barely ran an offense. O'Brien wanted spacing last season so that's what Brandon did.

This is why I've been saying that Rush needs to play in a disciplined system. We'll always get the inconsistency on offense from Rush because it's in his nature, but I guarantee he will look better in this season's offense than he's ever looked here.

Judging by the preseason he needs about 5-10 games to develop chemistry with the guys but he had a great chemistry with Roy in their rookie seasons. Their give and gos were one of our most successful combinations (behind TJ's free throw jumper and our backdoor baseline cuts with Rasho in the high post).

I think this is a very good thing if it happens. Our two biggest weaknesses right now are bench offense and starting perimeter defense. Moving Brandon into the starting lineup and Mike to the bench improves both areas. It's a no-brainer IMO.

DGPR
11-07-2010, 12:14 PM
My question to this is, what in the hell was so wrong with starting George, who is clearly outplaying Dunleavy ALREADY! IMO

Infinite MAN_force
11-07-2010, 12:18 PM
My question to this is, what in the hell was so wrong with starting George, who is clearly outplaying Dunleavy ALREADY! IMO

I like George and everything, but he is still a rookie and still makes a lot of mistakes, especially with team defense. Bringing him off the bench is the right thing to do for the time being.

HOOPFANATIC
11-07-2010, 12:54 PM
I know it's probably just my bias but I hate to constantly hear a Coach blame the players for not running or executing the offense that he is charged to teach them. He has had nearly four seasons with basically the same group with the same results. Sorry frustration settling in.

Mr_Smith
11-07-2010, 12:54 PM
Starting Rush over Dunleavy= smartest decision the coach has ever made

beast23
11-07-2010, 01:07 PM
I think if Rush goes into the starting lineup, that might signal the end of the motion offense. Or maybe we'll only use it on a limited basis. maybe the coches have decided that these players cannot run the motion offenseI hope it's not the end of the motion offense. After moving to a motion offense this season, I think it has actually been successful, even quite impressive, when the players on the court have actually have executed it.

In business, management employees often go through a course that teaches about personality... that each person has a dual personality. Everyone has a personality that shows who they are in "normal" situations, and each person has a "backup personality" that they fall into in stressful situations.

I'm beginning to think our team's offense works the same way. With the right combination of players on the floor, we play a pretty decent motion offense. When a few things go wrong, or we don't have the right chemistry on the floor, we operate under an atmosphere of panic, we quit creating opportunities and start chucking up just about anything.

As for Rush, I was hoping he would not start his first few to first several games back. He was suspended for 5 games due to a league infraction... it was something totally tracked and controlled by the league and under the rules the Pacers were not even informed until after his 3rd infraction, when the suspension/penalty was handed down.

The Pacers messed around with him a little bit by delaying his extension until right before the deadline. I really wish they would send a statement of their own (rather than just the league suspension) by letting him know that the consequence of his action is that he will come off the bench for the time being, or even further define it as "x" number of games. It needs to more than just a league suspension, there needs to be a strong statement from the team and an example set.

And, if Dunleavy's current shooting slump and physical condition prevent him from starting, I would start George over Rush. Unfortunately, the timing for such a move might be bad, since the Pacers are heading into a tough section of their scheduling where they are likely to lose 10 or more of their next 15 games.

Scot Pollard
11-07-2010, 01:38 PM
horray he finally better start rush

pacer4ever
11-07-2010, 01:47 PM
YESSSS

pacer4ever
11-07-2010, 01:52 PM
I like George and everything, but he is still a rookie and still makes a lot of mistakes, especially with team defense. Bringing him off the bench is the right thing to do for the time being.

the knicks coach said it best he was talking about Anotothy Randolph.

He said

"I know he will make mistakes because he is young but i have to play him thru thoes mistakes"

That is the best way for PG24 to learn also it helps he has outplayed dunleavy by a wide margin.

MLB007
11-07-2010, 03:11 PM
the knicks coach said it best he was talking about Anotothy Randolph.

He said

"I know he will make mistakes because he is young but i have to play him thru thoes mistakes"

That is the best way for PG24 to learn also it helps he has outplayed dunleavy by a wide margin.

The Pacers brass need to win this year.

Naptown_Seth
11-07-2010, 03:18 PM
"It'll help to have Brandon back," O'Brien said. "Brandon is going to fit in and he's going to be an important part of the rotation. This will allow Danny's minutes to decrease so he can become more effective."
It's official, JOB is POD PEOPLE and can't be trusted as a human. I'm pleased that the alien life form now inhabiting his body is so dialed in on handling the roster in a proper manner and is showing respect for the kids and their development, but how long can you keep trusting any kind of ALF. Even the smart-*** funny ones will eat your cat when you aren't looking.

It's a horrible dilemma. Accept a potentially dangerous creature into our city for the sake of better basketball, or call in the feds to have this thing removed and the original JOB returned at the cost of whatever that "sport" the Pacers played last year returning with him.






Whom I kidding, I vote pro-Martian and will let the highlights of Roy, Josh and Rush comfort me during the human enslavement period to follow.

Infinite MAN_force
11-07-2010, 03:19 PM
the knicks coach said it best he was talking about Anotothy Randolph.

He said

"I know he will make mistakes because he is young but i have to play him thru thoes mistakes"

That is the best way for PG24 to learn also it helps he has outplayed dunleavy by a wide margin.

You are correct that he will need to play through mistakes. However, it is much more preferable he is making those mistakes with the second unit playing against the other team's second unit. You don't want to compromise the play of the entire starting unit just to develop a rookie... unless you are just hopelessly devoid of talent... Which I don't believe we are (anymore).

Justin Tyme
11-07-2010, 03:23 PM
[QUOTE=CableKC;1091923]

When did Dunleavy get a sprained ankle?/QUOTE]


He didn't it's a sprained knee.

Naptown_Seth
11-07-2010, 03:27 PM
Starting Rush over Dunleavy= easiest decision the coach has ever made
Fixed to account for how terrible Dun's been shooting from the outside. His 1-7 from 3 at the home opener was built on 6 straight wide open and set looks coming up empty before he salvaged a single make with only a minute or two left in the game.


I actually like Mike's movement on offense, but he's thrown some passes on par with what he did last year (ie, to the other team or way off their target) and can't shoot a lick considering the looks he's getting. It's been bad enough for me to start wondering about his intentions, even though that's got to be ultra-paranoid. I just don't see how he's as bad as some of the choices, shots and passes he's made so far.

His height has certainly helped with rebounding but Rush has typically shot the 3 far better than Dun and obviously plays an entirely different level of defense.



As for Paul - he's still lost on most plays. Yes he's shown his knack for sniffing out passing lanes or giving his guy fits one on one, but when the ball leaves his area he gets caught trying to find the action elsewhere and getting burned behind him. The more complex stuff is easily tricking him.

He'll get there, I'm certainly not saying don't play him. I just don't think he's even close to starter-ready. Give him this year to feel his way into the NBA game from the less pressure-filled bench against players of lower caliber. It's a good way to establish his confidence, and as he gets it going he gives you a solid all-around bench scorer to boot.

Naptown_Seth
11-07-2010, 03:38 PM
I'll believe it when I see it.

[edit] Also, can we stop calling it a "motion" offense, when there's no motion to it whatsoever. I would think the Bobby Knight disciples alone would be up in arms about what we run being called motion. I thought I was gonna stab my eyes out when DC went and stood in the corner like he was Derrick McKey.
Which game, I can look for it. I've been trying to get unburied with other stuff so I can get back to uploading some vid so I might be able to track this down.



One other thing since people are already flipping out about Rush's offense before he's even played this year, remember that last year he started cold from 3 in the first month and then scorched it up the rest of the year (over 40% for months at a time). This team doesn't need Rush dribble driving. All he needs to do is hit the open 3s when teams double Roy or hedge to help against a cutter when Roy has the ball in the high post...or Rush himself can feed the high post and cut past it himself.

IMO, Roy, Josh and Rush are all of a very similar offensive mindset and see the court in a similar manner. The offense is at it's best when it caters to their strengths.

Seriously, we have one of the premiere passing bigs, one of the best dunk/oop threats with Josh, and a strong 3pt threat in Rush. When you add Danny's overall offense and DC's ability to dribble drive, you aren't really lacking much from your starters.

Now Rolle's post offense in place of Solo's...ugh.

Justin Tyme
11-07-2010, 03:41 PM
As for Rush, I was hoping he would not start his first few to first several games back. He was suspended for 5 games due to a league infraction... it was something totally tracked and controlled by the league and under the rules the Pacers were not even informed until after his 3rd infraction, when the suspension/penalty was handed down.

The Pacers messed around with him a little bit by delaying his extension until right before the deadline. I really wish they would send a statement of their own (rather than just the league suspension) by letting him know that the consequence of his action is that he will come off the bench for the time being, or even further define it as "x" number of games. It needs to more than just a league suspension, there needs to be a strong statement from the team and an example set.


I couldn't agree more.

Am I surprised by Jimmy's contradiction? Leopards don't change their spots! Rush now gets the starting position back by default and not by having to earn it. :bs: Great message to send to him. Screw up and your job is secure. Great lesson to teach the youngster Bird!

With Rush being suspended for his recreational use of weed, if he gets tested again and fails, does he get suspended immediately or does the NBA give him 3 strikes b4 he's out again?

Jimmy acts like the only choice he has to replace Dunleavy is Rush. Has Dahntay been traded and I'm unware of it. Or is it Dahntay just isn't Jimmy's cup of tea? I'd have him or PG start b4 I'd allow Rush to get his starting job back w/o earning it? Bird needs to tell Jimmy Rush doesn't get the starting job back until Rush earns it

Hicks
11-07-2010, 03:57 PM
Thinking of Mike's poor shooting and Brandon Rush coming back just reminded me:

Brandon sucked at shooting 3's last year, too, at the start.

Here's his 3 point makes-attempts for the first handful of games last year:

0-0
0-2
0-2
0-4
2-8

*edit* I see Seth brought it up in a post I hadn't read yet when I commented.

Justin Tyme
11-07-2010, 04:09 PM
The Pacers brass need to win this year.


Who really expects it besides the Kool-Aid drinkers? Another 36 win season isn't the worst thing that could happen if the youngsters and the team develops along the way. This team has certain needs that must be addressed which includes a b/u Center, a quality starting PF, and last but not least a new coach that coaches to his players strengths and not to his grandiose belief that his system is the only way to win. Winning for the sake of winning isn't going to cure the things that ail this team. What does it gain with next years lockout coming? My belief is the next FULL season is the season for the Pacers to put it together and really go forth full steam ahead. JMOAA


I'm going to point out to those who asked where could the Pacers find a coach to replace O'Brien. His name was Monty Williams. I advocated for him to replace Jimmy, and he's doing a fine job getting the NO players to play. He came with a great resume of being an ast coach to about 5 great coaches. He seems to have learned well, so far he doing fine. I don't hear CP voicing any discontent about how things are going. Nice coaching choice for NO!

MyFavMartin
11-07-2010, 06:24 PM
You have to wonder why Bird signed him in the first place.

Solo was buried in the depth chart in Atlanta and showed some flashes of talent late in the season of '08-'09 and in the playoffs, before the Pacers went and signed him in FA.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=3010&year=2009

I remember thinking that he'd be a good player to take a chance on... sort of like Diener... potential and low cost to sign.

MyFavMartin
11-07-2010, 06:35 PM
Rush had been projected as the starting SG, so it'll be nice for the projected starting 5 to show what they can do together: Collison+Rush+Granger+McBob+Hibbert.

McBob's been getting in foul trouble awfully quickly, so it might not be surprising to see Tyler in there a lot...

The team tends to stand around a lot with the ball in Granger and Roy's hands. Would like to see more movement and smart cuts.

Unclebuck
11-07-2010, 07:06 PM
Everytime I have read the title of this thread and the Indystar headline, I go back and re-read the actual article. No where in the article are there any quotes or declaration that Rush is going to be starting at guard. They are thinking about it, they are considering it. but no final decision has been made.

I'm I missing something??

The first two lines are the headline and subheadline and Wells doesn't write those.

Sookie
11-07-2010, 07:59 PM
Everytime I have read the title of this thread and the Indystar headline, I go back and re-read the actual article. No where in the article are there any quotes or declaration that Rush is going to be starting at guard. They are thinking about it, they are considering it. but no final decision has been made.

I'm I missing something??

The first two lines are the headline and subheadline and Wells doesn't write those.

Do you want Rush to start at SG? Would you disagree with O'brien if he started him?

Unclebuck
11-07-2010, 08:22 PM
Do you want Rush to start at SG? Would you disagree with O'brien if he started him?

I don't have a strong opinion either way. advantages and disadvantages either way.

I always want defense, so that is the advantage with rush, but mike is better offensively.

I suppose blets wait and see who is better starting and whos better coming off the bench. I'm willing to try either and see.

CableKC
11-07-2010, 09:47 PM
It's official, JOB is POD PEOPLE and can't be trusted as a human. I'm pleased that the alien life form now inhabiting his body is so dialed in on handling the roster in a proper manner and is showing respect for the kids and their development, but how long can you keep trusting any kind of ALF. Even the smart-*** funny ones will eat your cat when you aren't looking.

It's a horrible dilemma. Accept a potentially dangerous creature into our city for the sake of better basketball, or call in the feds to have this thing removed and the original JOB returned at the cost of whatever that "sport" the Pacers played last year returning with him.

Whom I kidding, I vote pro-Martian and will let the highlights of Roy, Josh and Rush comfort me during the human enslavement period to follow.
:laugh: ..... This is vintage Seth.....

Sookie
11-07-2010, 10:05 PM
It's official, JOB is POD PEOPLE and can't be trusted as a human. I'm pleased that the alien life form now inhabiting his body is so dialed in on handling the roster in a proper manner and is showing respect for the kids and their development, but how long can you keep trusting any kind of ALF. Even the smart-*** funny ones will eat your cat when you aren't looking.

It's a horrible dilemma. Accept a potentially dangerous creature into our city for the sake of better basketball, or call in the feds to have this thing removed and the original JOB returned at the cost of whatever that "sport" the Pacers played last year returning with him.






Whom I kidding, I vote pro-Martian and will let the highlights of Roy, Josh and Rush comfort me during the human enslavement period to follow.

Nah Seth, you're giving him more credit than he deserves. He's the same old JOB. There's a reason I could accuratly predict that Posey, would in fact, be the first big off the bench the last game.

Why did Posey get replaced by Tyler for a few games? Because he wasn't making his threes. What happened when he made some? He played 30 minutes.

Why is he considering replacing Dun with Rush? Because Dun hasn't made a shot in the regular season. Rush might. If Rush is cold, Dun will be back. And just watch, it's going to be Paul George..not Dun, that loses minutes.

He's being forced to play the younger guys, cause the older ones are just THAT bad. Price loses out because at least one younger guy has too at all cost, and Ford hasn't been as bad as Posey..and arguably Dun.

CableKC
11-07-2010, 10:05 PM
Which game, I can look for it. I've been trying to get unburied with other stuff so I can get back to uploading some vid so I might be able to track this down.

One other thing since people are already flipping out about Rush's offense before he's even played this year, remember that last year he started cold from 3 in the first month and then scorched it up the rest of the year (over 40% for months at a time). This team doesn't need Rush dribble driving. All he needs to do is hit the open 3s when teams double Roy or hedge to help against a cutter when Roy has the ball in the high post...or Rush himself can feed the high post and cut past it himself.

IMO, Roy, Josh and Rush are all of a very similar offensive mindset and see the court in a similar manner. The offense is at it's best when it caters to their strengths.

Seriously, we have one of the premiere passing bigs, one of the best dunk/oop threats with Josh, and a strong 3pt threat in Rush. When you add Danny's overall offense and DC's ability to dribble drive, you aren't really lacking much from your starters.

Now Rolle's post offense in place of Solo's...ugh.
Before we throw JO'B under the bus for playing Dunleavy and Posey too much over BRush and PG.....let's hope that JO'B recognizes this as well.....:rolleyes: I will give him the benefit of the doubt because BRush wasn't an option that he could use at the Wing. The only question in my mind is once he does have the option to go with Granger/BRush/Dunleavy/PG/Posey/Inferno/Lance at the Wing spots.......whose he's going to primarily use?

I'd like to believe that it would be some combination of athleticsm and scoring where Granger/BRush get a majority of the SG/SF minutes and then having Dunleavy/PG/Posey play based off of needs/matchups....but my guess is that we will be seeing far more Granger/BRush/Dunleavy/Posey then we really want and ( unfortunately ) less involving PG where he will get garbage minutes. But given the way that we have been playing.....PG getting garbage minutes isn't totally out of the realm of possiblility for this team.

CableKC
11-07-2010, 10:15 PM
Why is he considering replacing Dun with Rush? Because Dun hasn't made a shot in the regular season. Rush might. If Rush is cold, Dun will be back. And just watch, it's going to be Paul George..not Dun, that loses minutes.

He's being forced to play the younger guys, cause the older ones are just THAT bad. Price loses out because at least one younger guy has too at all cost, and Ford hasn't been as bad as Posey..and arguably Dun.
+100....I guarantee that PG will be the one that will see his minutes reduced. In fact....I wouldn't be surprised if we went with more a lot of minutes where we see 3 Wing Players on the floor at the same time and less involving McBob and Hansbrough.

About the notion of the 3pt shot dictating playing time....why isn't McBob getting any more minutes as he's been doing a good job trying to be a "stretch Forward" at the PF spot? McBob has been willing to take some 3pt shots....he's not doing great...but I know that he's hit a few, you have to wonder why JO'B is slowly reducing his minutes.

CableKC
11-07-2010, 10:16 PM
He didn't it's a sprained knee.
Okay...I stand corrected...when did he get a sprained knee?

Sookie
11-07-2010, 10:54 PM
+100....I guarantee that PG will be the one that will see his minutes reduced. In fact....I wouldn't be surprised if we went with more a lot of minutes where we see 3 Wing Players on the floor at the same time and less involving McBob and Hansbrough.

About the notion of the 3pt shot dictating playing time....why isn't McBob getting any more minutes as he's been doing a good job trying to be a "stretch Forward" at the PF spot? McBob has been willing to take some 3pt shots....he's not doing great...but I know that he's hit a few, you have to wonder why JO'B is slowly reducing his minutes.

His minutes have been reduced because of foul trouble mostly..and because there is James Posey..If Posey starts hitting the three regularly Josh will find his minutes continued to be reduced.

Also, has Dun's sprained knee been checked..like..MRI and all..hate to be paranoid but if you watch women's basketball enough "sprained knee" is bad...Hope he's been checked out well..

owl
11-07-2010, 11:03 PM
I am not so sure that Dunleavy has the offense over Rush with the way he has been
shooting. I would like to let the starting five with Rush be set for awhile and
let the starting five and second unit develope some consistency. Nothing is working well
right now although they did play better defense against the Bucks.

ThA HoyA
11-07-2010, 11:16 PM
I think having rush on the perimeter will help mcroberts and continue to help hibbert stay out of foul trouble. Most fouls by them I think are from help defense. Plus as much as people hate rush's passive offense I'd take his low amount but high quality shots over dunleavy thinking he is a number 1 option.

graphic-er
11-08-2010, 01:04 AM
I think having rush on the perimeter will help mcroberts and continue to help hibbert stay out of foul trouble. Most fouls by them I think are from help defense. Plus as much as people hate rush's passive offense I'd take his low amount but high quality shots over dunleavy thinking he is a number 1 option.

This is pretty much it. Dunleavy's never in foul trouble because the his opponent has already blown by him, forcing McRobert's to have to switch and try to cover for Dunleavy. I fully expect the 2 quick fouls on McRoberts to stop once Rush is starting. It will be nice for once to see a starting line of 5 players who are capable of actually playing NBA level defense as a unit.

MagicRat
11-08-2010, 10:59 AM
Video of Brandon and JOB discussing Brandon's return now on www.pacers.com .....

Unclebuck
11-08-2010, 11:30 AM
I cannot listen to the video here at work, anyone want to summarize their comments

thanks

MLB007
11-08-2010, 12:18 PM
OB reaffirmed what I noticed and have posted, Brandon looked a LOT more aggressive and active going to the basket. OB said thats what they told him to work on (finishing) and that he's looked much better at it.
Brandon sounded intelligent and properly remorseful about his situation (IMO).
I think he deserves and has earned another chance with TPTB.

Unclebuck
11-08-2010, 12:31 PM
Rush has the ability to be a legitimate starting shooting guard in the NBA. He's an excellent rebounder, very good defender who could be even better when he gets better at team defense and he has the ability to be a good offensive player. I just worry if he'll always be a timid offensive player just because that appears to be his personality

Justin Tyme
11-08-2010, 12:38 PM
Dunleavy's never in foul trouble because the his opponent has already blown by him, forcing McRobert's to have to switch and try to cover for Dunleavy.


Dun's brother, Murphy, seldom got into foul problems as well. When you don't guard your player, Murphy & Dun, you seldom get in foul problems.

xBulletproof
11-08-2010, 12:44 PM
Rush has the ability to be a legitimate starting shooting guard in the NBA. He's an excellent rebounder, very good defender who could be even better when he gets better at team defense and he has ther ability to be a good offensive player. I just worry if he'll always be a timid offensive player just because that appears to be his personality

Agreed, but even with timid offensive abilities he has skills that lend themselves to winning. He should be capable of getting minutes and contributing on just about any NBA team, especially one of our mediocre talent level.

I just hope it's at Dunleavy's expense and not Paul George. I'm not a believer that a young player MUST play to develop, but I like watching George and I think he might be better than Dunleavy very, very soon.

Unclebuck
11-08-2010, 12:47 PM
I just wonder if Rush's best role isn't coming off the bench. Which if we assume he is still on the team in two years is likely to be his role as I expect George to be starting by then.

Unclebuck
11-08-2010, 12:51 PM
Dun's brother, Murphy, seldom got into foul problems as well. When you don't guard your player, Murphy & Dun, you seldom get in foul problems.

don't want to get into a discussion about Murphy and Dunleavy.

But I think a very interesting point is whether you can conclude a player is a good defender if he fouls a lot. Or a bad defender if he doesn't foul a lot. Rik Smits IMO was a bad defender, but he fouled a lot. Dale Davis who was a great defender didn't foul much at all. Antonio davis who I considered a good defender fouled a lot.

So I guess whether a player fouls a lot or not doesn't prove anything in and of itself.

BillS
11-08-2010, 12:51 PM
I think we sometimes forget that "earning your way in" includes "being ready to come in when someone else plays themselves out of their spot".

Mackey_Rose
11-08-2010, 01:06 PM
Rush has the ability to be a legitimate starting shooting guard in the NBA. He's an excellent rebounder, very good defender who could be even better when he gets better at team defense and he has the ability to be a good offensive player. I just worry if he'll always be a timid offensive player just because that appears to be his personality

You have been saying repeatedly this season, that team defense is 50% of defense, as a major defensive statement for Mike Dunleavy. I could not disagree any more.

Team defense only becomes vital when you have horrible one-on-one defenders (which Dunleavy is) playing and you require the other defenders to pick up his slack. If we have Rush locking his man down, and not acting as a total sieve, team defense loses much of its importance to this team.

They still will have to pick up the slack from Collison and Granger, but inserting Rush into the lineup will at least help to slow down the perimeter dribble penetration that has been a serious problem for this team.

vnzla81
11-08-2010, 01:16 PM
don't want to get into a discussion about Murphy and Dunleavy.

But I think a very interesting point is whether you can conclude a player is a good defender if he fouls a lot. Or a bad defender if he doesn't foul a lot. Rik Smits IMO was a bad defender, but he fouled a lot. Dale Davis who was a great defender didn't foul much at all. Antonio davis who I considered a good defender fouled a lot.

So I guess whether a player fouls a lot or not doesn't prove anything in and of itself.

Murphy and Dunleavy are bull fighters on defense, one thing is to foul your guy because you can't control your toughness like Dale and another thing is just letting your guy pass by time after time and getting your bigs in foul trouble.

Mackey_Rose
11-08-2010, 01:18 PM
Murphy and Dunleavy are bull fighters on defense, one thing is to foul your guy because you can't control your toughness like Dale and another thing is just letting your guy pass by time after time and getting your bigs in foul trouble.

It's hard to foul when you aren't close enough to anybody to do it.

gummy
11-08-2010, 01:37 PM
don't want to get into a discussion about Murphy and Dunleavy.

But I think a very interesting point is whether you can conclude a player is a good defender if he fouls a lot. Or a bad defender if he doesn't foul a lot. Rik Smits IMO was a bad defender, but he fouled a lot. Dale Davis who was a great defender didn't foul much at all. Antonio davis who I considered a good defender fouled a lot.

So I guess whether a player fouls a lot or not doesn't prove anything in and of itself.

I think there is some truth to this - you can't go by fouls alone (though I haven't seen anyone make the argument that Dun is a bad man to man defender BECAUSE he doesn't foul).

I suspect we can all agree that good/great defender + less fouling is best though. That's one of the reasons I prefer Brandon's defense (1.94 fouls last year) over Dahntay's (3.12 fouls last year)

Hicks
11-08-2010, 01:39 PM
You have been saying repeatedly this season, that team defense is 50% of defense, as a major defensive statement for Mike Dunleavy. I could not disagree any more.

Team defense only becomes vital when you have horrible one-on-one defenders (which Dunleavy is) playing and you require the other defenders to pick up his slack. If we have Rush locking his man down, and not acting as a total sieve, team defense loses much of its importance to this team.

They still will have to pick up the slack from Collison and Granger, but inserting Rush into the lineup will at least help to slow down the perimeter dribble penetration that has been a serious problem for this team.

Depends on how you define one on one defense. In other words, do you consider guarding your man off the ball to be team defense, or man to man? I could see it either way.

Take Paul George. I like him on defense when his man has the ball, but as we've discussed, he gets caught watching the ball when his man doesn't have it, and he gets burned. Is that bad one on one defense because it was his job to keep guarding his man, or is it bad team defense?

Hicks
11-08-2010, 01:41 PM
As for the foul count, it just depends on the player.

I think we can agree in the case of Dunleavy it's usually because he recognizes when he's beat and doesn't risk the potential for an and-one.

pacer4ever
11-08-2010, 01:41 PM
Depends on how you define one on one defense. In other words, do you consider guarding your man off the ball to be team defense, or man to man? I could see it either way.

Take Paul George. I like him on defense when his man has the ball, but as we've discussed, he gets caught watching the ball when his man doesn't have it, and he gets burned. Is that bad one on one defense because it was his job to keep guarding his man, or is it bad team defense?

That is such as easy fix someone on the coaching staff should tell him and it would be gone almost overnight.

gummy
11-08-2010, 01:45 PM
Take Paul George. I like him on defense when his man has the ball, but as we've discussed, he gets caught watching the ball when his man doesn't have it, and he gets burned. Is that bad one on one defense because it was his job to keep guarding his man, or is it bad team defense?

I would say that is a component of man to man defense because he loses "his guy." To me team defense involves moving off your man, whether it's helpside or recognizing when to make defensive switches (and of course, being physically able to make them).

gummy
11-08-2010, 02:01 PM
Another thing about Rush in the starting line-up that I haven't seen discussed so far is that it means he'll be in there with Collision. While I expect it will take a little time for them to adjust to each other it certainly seems like Brandon played better when on the floor with a point guard not named TJ (Earl and AJ). Collision said he was excited to play with Brandon and I'll be happy to see him log most of his time with DC.

Mackey_Rose
11-08-2010, 02:05 PM
Depends on how you define one on one defense. In other words, do you consider guarding your man off the ball to be team defense, or man to man? I could see it either way.

Take Paul George. I like him on defense when his man has the ball, but as we've discussed, he gets caught watching the ball when his man doesn't have it, and he gets burned. Is that bad one on one defense because it was his job to keep guarding his man, or is it bad team defense?

I consider guarding your man away from the ball a major component of man-to-man defense, but if you want to classify it as team defense, Dunleavy is not a good defender in either man-to-man or team defense, because that is where he is at his weakest.

He can't stay with his man when he makes one cut, or if he uses a screen he doesn't even try to fight through it, he just blames the rest of the team for not helping enough.

No matter which perspective you take, he is a horrid defender.

Trophy
11-08-2010, 02:09 PM
I'm excited to see what Brandon will bring for us.

I think he's going to get fouled a lot more often.

With Darren guiding the offense, I think he'll be more consistent and he'll average about 11 points a night.

His defense is what we've missed.

I'm more convinced that JOB will start him tomorrow.

Unclebuck
11-08-2010, 02:16 PM
You have been saying repeatedly this season, that team defense is 50% of defense, as a major defensive statement for Mike Dunleavy. I could not disagree any more.

Team defense only becomes vital when you have horrible one-on-one defenders (which Dunleavy is) playing and you require the other defenders to pick up his slack. If we have Rush locking his man down, and not acting as a total sieve, team defense loses much of its importance to this team.

They still will have to pick up the slack from Collison and Granger, but inserting Rush into the lineup will at least help to slow down the perimeter dribble penetration that has been a serious problem for this team.

We are talking about different things. I used to always say that Derrick Mckey had to guard his man and Jalen's man at the same time, but that he was able to do that.

But I understand your point. Sort of like I used to say about Artest, he would shut down the best scorer on the opponent, so the pacers could defend 4 on 4.

But taking a step back it is easier for a defensive team to guard 5 on 5 than it is 4 on 4. Unless of course the 5th player is Lebron - so it all depends on who Mike has to guard.

I still think Mike's team defense is better than Rush's team defense, and that is why I always say Mike is fine as long as he doesn't have to guard a good scorer - becauser then he is a real plus, being in the right place on team defense.

So I understand your point and to the degree you are correct IMO it depends on the opponent.

Do I consider defending your man off the ball, to be team defense or man to man? here is where it gets fun. it is certainly both. And that is why it is so hard. You have to be able to keep your man from getting the ball and still be in proper position and have the knowledge to help your teammates in a split second if they get beat, and you have to then trust your teammates to cover for you if you go help.

Team defense in the NBA is very complicated and that is why almost every young player struggles in team defense probably mopre than anything - even great players.

larry Bird was a good example of a good team defender, but not a good one-on-one defender.

I will say though, if a team has 5 great individual one-on-one defenders - but no team concept they will not be a good defensive team. NBA players are too good offensively.

Unclebuck
11-08-2010, 02:23 PM
That is such as easy fix someone on the coaching staff should tell him and it would be gone almost overnight.

No, it takes a lot of experience. Just someone telling him, don't do that instead do this isn't going to get the job done.

Beyond that you don't think the coaching staff isn't telling him how to play team defense. What do you think they are doing

Mackey_Rose
11-08-2010, 02:31 PM
We are talking about different things. I used to always say that Derrick Mckey had to guard his man and Jalen's man at the same time, but that he was able to do that.

But I understand your point. Sort of like I used to say about Artest, he would shut down the best scorer on the opponent, so the pacers could defend 4 on 4.

But taking a step back it is easier for a defensive team to guard 5 on 5 than it is 4 on 4. Unless of course the 5th player is Lebron - so it all depends on why Mike has to guard.

I still think Mike's team defense is better than Rush's team defense, and that is why I always say Mike is fine as long as he doesn't have to guard a good scorer - becauser then he is a real plus, being in the right place on team defense.

So I understand your point and to the degree you are correct IMO it depends on the opponent.

Do I consider defending your man off the ball, to be team defense or man to man? here is where it gets fun. it is certainly both. And that is why it is so hard. You have to be able to keep your man from getting the ball and still be in proper position and have the knowledge to help your teammates in a split second if they get beat, and you have to then trust your teammates to cover for you if you go help.

Team defense in the NBA is very complicated and that is why almost every young player struggles in team defense probably mopre than anything - even great players.

larry Bird wis a good example of a good team defender, but not a good one-on-one defender

Very good post. I still don't understand how you can believe all that and yet still defend Mike Dunleavy's defense, but good post nonetheless.

The big problem with the bolded argument is that even when he is in the right place, bad things happen on the defensive end of the floor.

Deadshot
11-08-2010, 02:37 PM
Newest Mike Wells tweet:


O'Brien sticking with Dunleavy as starting shooting guard.

Hicks
11-08-2010, 02:37 PM
Well, Mike's starting tomorrow according to Mike Wells.

Hoo-freaking-ray.

Trophy
11-08-2010, 02:39 PM
I guess I spoke too soon.

JOB needs to make up his mind. It seems like there's always a surprise in the starting lineup after we all expect something way different.

Unclebuck
11-08-2010, 02:40 PM
Very good post. I still don't understand how you can believe all that and yet still defend Mike Dunleavy's defense, but good post nonetheless.

The big problem with the bolded argument is that even when he is in the right place, bad things happen on the defensive end of the floor.

What happens is team try to exploit Mike by going at him one-on-one (that is what the Bucks did) But if Mike is off the ball on the weakside he is great at helping his teammates.

Not that this stat proves anything in and of itself, but Mike led the NBA in taking charges 3 seasons ago and I would guess 95% of those were helping out a teammate

Mackey_Rose
11-08-2010, 02:40 PM
Well, Mike's starting tomorrow according to Mike Wells.

Hoo-freaking-ray.

Haha, it never ends. JOB is a caricature of himself.

vnzla81
11-08-2010, 02:41 PM
Nice, who is ready for another blowout?

Mackey_Rose
11-08-2010, 02:42 PM
What happens is team try to exploit Mike by going at him one-on-one (that is what the Bucks did) But if Mike is off the ball on the weakside he is great at helping his teammates.

Not that this stat proves anything in and of itself, but Mike led the NBA in taking charges 3 seasons ago and I would guess 95% of those were helping out a teammate

That's exactly the problem. Other teams are not stupid. They do scout. Of course they are going to try to exploit the glaring weakness in our team defensively.

It's hasn't just been the Bucks, and it won't just be the Bucks. It will happen every night.

Trophy
11-08-2010, 02:43 PM
It would make sense to start Brandon against Denver's offense.

Again, I don't care who's starts, just as long as we win.

If we lose, then I think Brandon will start following tomorrow's game.

vnzla81
11-08-2010, 02:46 PM
What happens is team try to exploit Mike by going at him one-on-one (that is what the Bucks did) But if Mike is off the ball on the weakside he is great at helping his teammates.

Not that this stat proves anything in and of itself, but Mike led the NBA in taking charges 3 seasons ago and I would guess 95% of those were helping out a teammate

UB that was three seasons ago, three season ago is a long time in the NBA, Dunleavy's defense in general sucks right now, we are talking about now not three seasons ago.

pacer4ever
11-08-2010, 02:46 PM
:eek:
That's exactly the problem. Other teams are not stupid. They do scout. Of course they are going to try to exploit the glaring weakness in our team defensively.

It's hasn't just been the Bucks, and it won't just be the Bucks. It will happen every night.

ya they are gonna eat mike up with JR smith and melo out there at the same time. Mike would have to guard one of them :eek::laugh:

Unclebuck
11-08-2010, 02:47 PM
Jim never said he was going to start Rush nor did Wells. It was whoever wrote the Star headline - but I'll repeat what I posted several pages back and this is the reason why I made such a big deal about it, Jim said he was considering it.

Mackey_Rose
11-08-2010, 02:49 PM
Jim never said he was going to start Rush nor did Wells. It was whoever wrote the Star headline - but I'll repeat what I posted several pages back and this is the reason why I made such a big deal about it, Jim said he was considering it.

I would like to know what information he was considering that led him to conclude starting Dunleavy was in the team's best interest.

Trophy
11-08-2010, 02:49 PM
ya they are gonna eat mike up with JR smith and melo out there at the same time. Mike would have to guard one of them :eek::laugh:

JOB likes to go his own way and thinks that our players can be just as dangerous at the other team's.

A good example is using James Posey to play PF and force the opposing player to go out and defend him.

This is where JOB doesn't think defense is important. He thinks trying to equal the team's offense is more important and Denver's offense is really good and needs to be contained defensively.

Danny can probably matchup well with Melo because they both play similar, but Mike is going to have a difficult time keeping up with JR Smith who likes to drive and shoot.

vnzla81
11-08-2010, 02:56 PM
I would like to know what information he was considering that led him to conclude starting Dunleavy was in the team's best interest.

Who knows he is maybe thinking about tanking and concluded that the best to do this is to start Dunleavy(best interest for the team) :confused:


By the way the BS that many of the JOB supporters talk about players deserving to start because of performance just got shot down by Jim playing Dun even though he is maybe the worse player on the team right now.

Trophy
11-08-2010, 03:01 PM
I would like to know what information he was considering that led him to conclude starting Dunleavy was in the team's best interest.

I'm seriously starting to think JOB doesn't really care about this team and its future because he figures he won't be part of it.

I don't know, just a possible solution to his poor decision making.

He also doesn't care to develop these young players.

gummy
11-08-2010, 03:05 PM
Bah. I hope Rush manages to get most of his minutes with Collision. He will probably play mostly with TJ if he isn't starting though.... :(

jhondog28
11-08-2010, 03:06 PM
Who knows he is maybe thinking about tanking and concluded that the best to do this is to start Dunleavy(best interest for the team) :confused:


By the way the BS that many of the JOB supporters talk about players deserving to start because of performance just got shot down by Jim playing Dun even though he is maybe the worse player on the team right now.

Well V you know I like to look through life with my Dunleavy glasses but even I think he should be playing from the bench. not because I think he is a terrible player, but because I like the mix on the floor better. I like him playing with PG and I like Rush playing with Granger. It will all be a mute point because he will be traded before the season is out.

Unclebuck
11-08-2010, 03:07 PM
I would like to know what information he was considering that led him to conclude starting Dunleavy was in the team's best interest.

I don't know. Maybe just a gut feeling. Or maybe he wants to ease Rush in slowly and see how he performs (will he play as well as he has in practice, will he be aggressive) off the bench. Maybe wants to give Mike more than 5 games to see what he can do as a starter.

We all know Jim loves to tinker, so this discussion isn't over

Since86
11-08-2010, 03:09 PM
Why even say anything if you aren't going to make a change? That's the problem.

Don't open your mouth, until you decide. And if you decide to keep things as is, then there is no reason to say anything about it. I don't care what you're going to keep on doing, or atleast I don't need to be told you're going to keep doing it. I want to know the things you are going to change, or the things you think need to get better.

LoneGranger33
11-08-2010, 03:23 PM
These past five outings for Dudleavy have given Pacers fans a newfound appreciation for Brandon Rush. I was hoping he'd come into game six with the fans expecting little of him, but now the mood has changed so much that a lot of us are hoping he can save this team from itself. Count me interested in this developing storyline!

jhondog28
11-08-2010, 03:25 PM
Um even with Dunleavy on the bench there are 4 other players who haven't been lighting it up. Dont be expecting too much.

BillS
11-08-2010, 03:27 PM
Why even say anything if you aren't going to make a change? That's the problem.

Don't open your mouth, until you decide. And if you decide to keep things as is, then there is no reason to say anything about it. I don't care what you're going to keep on doing, or atleast I don't need to be told you're going to keep doing it. I want to know the things you are going to change, or the things you think need to get better.


Because if he doesn't, many people (especially around here) assume he isn't even thinking about it because he is stupid/stubborn/lazy/whatever.

He's giving us what we want, an insight into the thought process behind it. It is OUR fault that we assume, like a 4-year-old, that "I'm thinking about it" means "I'm going to do it".

Maybe if we stopped assuming the decision from the discussion, we wouldn't be so upset.

Since86
11-08-2010, 03:54 PM
Maybe if we stopped assuming the decision from the discussion, we wouldn't be so upset.

Yet, you're assuming if he doesn't tell us he's thinking about it, we're going to *****.

I don't need to be told things are going to stay the same. I expect that, until told differently.

Common sense tell us that he atleast THINKS about the rotations. Or are you saying that you think he pulls out a dart board and makes random tosses to see who will play? Obviously he thinks about all the decisions that need to be made.

I don't need to be told that he's thinking.

sportfireman
11-08-2010, 04:07 PM
Yet, you're assuming if he doesn't tell us he's thinking about it, we're going to *****.

I don't need to be told things are going to stay the same. I expect that, until told differently.

Common sense tell us that he atleast THINKS about the rotations. Or are you saying that you think he pulls out a dart board and makes random tosses to see who will play? Obviously he thinks about all the decisions that need to be made.

I don't need to be told that he's thinking.

I totally agree..... some random thoughts should be left as thoughts.

Scot Pollard
11-08-2010, 04:10 PM
ive had it with jim obrien

he makes me so sick to the point where i feel like puking

why does he get our hopes up

its also clear that the players dont really even care for him and i can see why

the players really like dan burke especially the younger guys

i see coach burke working with the players prior to games and it seems like the players enjoy working with him

he would make a good head coach here or at least for the season

Shade
11-08-2010, 04:11 PM
I can't belive that anyone would defend JOB at this point, Devil's Advocate or not. It truly amazes me.

Justin Tyme
11-08-2010, 04:12 PM
We all know Jim loves to tinker, so this discussion isn't over

He's the Rube Goldstien of tinkering, always trying to come up with a new creation. I'm not sure Jimmy wouldn't tinker with a combo that was winning... wait he did that last year after the infamous 5 game win streak. :D

BillS
11-08-2010, 04:18 PM
Yet, you're assuming if he doesn't tell us he's thinking about it, we're going to *****.

I don't need to be told things are going to stay the same. I expect that, until told differently.

Common sense tell us that he atleast THINKS about the rotations. Or are you saying that you think he pulls out a dart board and makes random tosses to see who will play? Obviously he thinks about all the decisions that need to be made.

I don't need to be told that he's thinking.

Well, contrary to popular belief, what gets reported on coaches and what they decide to say or don't say is seldom determined by what Since86 needs to be told.

And, while I am willing to argue that JOB thinks about these things no matter what is or is not reported - as evidenced by the fact that I keep doing it - there really are those on this board who fill in any gaps or incomplete teasers from reporters with their own imagined processes. It has been happening constantly throughout training camp.

The guy can't win. If he gives too much information and we jump to conclusions it is his fault. If he gives no information except when something is going to change it is his fault for not telling us what in the world he's thinking.

Sookie
11-08-2010, 04:29 PM
Jim never said he was going to start Rush nor did Wells. It was whoever wrote the Star headline - but I'll repeat what I posted several pages back and this is the reason why I made such a big deal about it, Jim said he was considering it.

No he didn't. I think the annoyance is more that Jim should start Rush.

And regardless, the point about JOB saying one thing and doing something completely contradictory isn't really arguable. He does it. It was illustrated last game after saying Tyler was the first big off the bench.

I find listening to him to be helpful though. Because at this point I do know what he's going to do.

"AJ's been the best player on the team, he'll get more minutes" = AJ's getting benched the next game, and will be in a suit once the regular season starts.

"Tyler's the first big off the bench" = James Posey is the first big off the bench.

This one was tricky though, as JOB said two different things..and he's still got a day to change his mind.

Since86
11-08-2010, 04:48 PM
Well, contrary to popular belief, what gets reported on coaches and what they decide to say or don't say is seldom determined by what Since86 needs to be told.

And contrary to popular belief, you don't have to defend every ****ing position Jim takes.

If you don't want to read what we have to say, then I think it's about time to dirty your ignore button.

Mackey_Rose
11-08-2010, 04:51 PM
I don't know. Maybe just a gut feeling. Or maybe he wants to ease Rush in slowly and see how he performs (will he play as well as he has in practice, will he be aggressive) off the bench. Maybe wants to give Mike more than 5 games to see what he can do as a starter.

We all know Jim loves to tinker, so this discussion isn't over

He should ignore that feeling in his gut, and go by what his brain has to be telling him is his only viable option.

It's probably just gas.

Part Timer
11-08-2010, 05:11 PM
Coaches are obligated to make themselves available to the media and they largely answer questions posed by the media who have articles to write.

A possible example -

Wells: Considering Dunleavy's shooting woes and the fact that Rush is no longer suspended, might we see a change in the lineup?

O'brien: We have to look seriously at Michael because he has not been real productive.

At no point does O'brien actually state what Wells decides to conclude in his story's title.

Can it not be that simple?

Since86
11-08-2010, 05:27 PM
And yet that was the same defense when we were told that Posey might be the 1st big off the bench.

Like it's been said everytime this freaking discussion comes up. If it was just this ONE instance, then yes, you're correct.

But when it continually happens, and has happened since the beginning of the JOb era then you start losing wiggle room.

Or am I the only one that remembers JOb coming into Indy with his chest puffed out announcing that if you can't practice, you don't play, only to later find out that JO wasn't practicing, and was still getting max minutes?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me 30 times over a 4year period, and I should be institutionalized.

flox
11-08-2010, 06:06 PM
Coachspeak: Only real when reported by Wells.

Trophy
11-08-2010, 06:08 PM
These past five outings for Dudleavy have given Pacers fans a newfound appreciation for Brandon Rush. I was hoping he'd come into game six with the fans expecting little of him, but now the mood has changed so much that a lot of us are hoping he can save this team from itself. Count me interested in this developing storyline!

I'm glad Brandon is getting support now. I'm looking forward to his return and to see his possible improvements.

rock747
11-08-2010, 07:12 PM
If people think rush is going to be the difference, they are going to be dissapointed.

CableKC
11-08-2010, 07:22 PM
If people think rush is going to be the difference, they are going to be dissapointed.
I'd disagree...to a certain extent. I don't think that BRush Starting or playing a decent amount of minutes is going to win a Championship for us....but I do think that we will remain in games a lot longer and even have a chance for the Playoffs compared to having Dunleavy playing a significant amount of minutes. IMHO.....playing Collison/Granger/BRush/McBob/Hibbert/Hansbrough more often then not will make a huge difference in JO'Bs system. Giving a significant # of minutes to Dunleavy, Posey ( when both of them are not hitting shots ) and Solo reduces our scoring and athleticsm enough for us to remain competitive.

JO'Bs offense/defense IMHO works much better with a more atheltic lineup where we actually use REAL PFs ( instead of going with a 3 SG/SF rotation on the court at the same time ) that can properly defend the opponents Wing and Low-Post Players.

Bball
11-08-2010, 08:28 PM
The guy can't win.

Finally, something we can agree on when it comes to Jim O'Brien!

:zip:

LoneGranger33
11-08-2010, 08:31 PM
Does O'Brien always call Dunleavy "Michael" or only when he's disappointed in his play?

Trophy
11-08-2010, 09:42 PM
Does O'Brien always call Dunleavy "Michael" or only when he's disappointed in his play?

I noticed that too.

I think you're right when JOB is disappointed with Mike he'll call him Michael.

Jon Theodore
11-08-2010, 09:47 PM
Jim O'brien is my favorite Furby doll. I taught him how to say many things.

MagicRat
11-08-2010, 10:46 PM
Somebody on twitter told Wells he needed to make sure his headline writer reads the articles. His response: "You're right about that. It was obviously a mistake. O'Brien even joked about it with me at practice."

Anthem
11-08-2010, 11:41 PM
He's the Rube Goldstien of tinkering, always trying to come up with a new creation. I'm not sure Jimmy wouldn't tinker with a combo that was winning... wait he did that last year after the infamous 5 game win streak. :D
The question is how many games it takes him to tinker his way to a lineup that the entire board was calling for after the first game of the season.

1st unit: Roy/Josh/Granger/Rush/Collison
2nd unit: Tyler/Dunleavy/George/Price

It's an obvious lineup when you look at our players. I'm not saying he should stick with it if he tries it and it's awful. But I'd at least like to see it once... especially since he's tried everything else. Any bets on whether we'll see this lineup before Christmas?

There's been several times over the past couple years where I thought he was doing everything in his power NOT to play the obvious lineup.

flox
11-09-2010, 12:20 PM
I'd throw up if we paired Price with Dunleavy. Disgusting.

bellisimo
11-09-2010, 12:27 PM
as much as JOB confuses me with what he says to the press, the Indy press also does a tremendous JOB of confusing everyone with all their "coverage" - nothing is really clear.

When you just read the JOB comments, it doesn't say anything ever about Rush starting...just that he will get some playtime...

This looks more like the writer/editor jumping the gun instead of JOB coming out and saying RUSH IS OUR STARTING GUARD.

BillS
11-09-2010, 01:23 PM
The question is how many games it takes him to tinker his way to a lineup that the entire board was calling for after the first game of the season.

1st unit: Roy/Josh/Granger/Rush/Collison
2nd unit: Tyler/Dunleavy/George/Price

It's an obvious lineup when you look at our players. I'm not saying he should stick with it if he tries it and it's awful. But I'd at least like to see it once... especially since he's tried everything else. Any bets on whether we'll see this lineup before Christmas?

There's been several times over the past couple years where I thought he was doing everything in his power NOT to play the obvious lineup.

Well, to be fair, it isn't like Rush was able to play, so that first unit would have been impossible for Phil Jackson to use in the first 5 games.

Sookie
11-09-2010, 01:26 PM
I'd throw up if we paired Price with Dunleavy. Disgusting.

Have you watched them play together?

In fact, I think Price is about the only player Dun plays well with. As I said, at some point I'm going to take a look at the statistics from last season, but I'd wager there's a significant difference between Dun's stats when he's with AJ vs when he isn't, particularly if you drop the first couple of weeks of production when Dun came back.

MTM
11-09-2010, 01:35 PM
Do you ever get the feeling JOB treats his lineups like some of us do when we are playing a video game? Just inserts players on a whim, changes his mind, pushes the pause button or altogether hits the "off" button? Then checks the stats just to see how he is doing?

spazzxb
11-09-2010, 01:36 PM
And contrary to popular belief, you don't have to defend every ****ing position Jim takes.

If you don't want to read what we have to say, then I think it's about time to dirty your ignore button.

Ignore doesn't work on derailed threads

Anthem
11-09-2010, 01:48 PM
Well, to be fair, it isn't like Rush was able to play, so that first unit would have been impossible for Phil Jackson to use in the first 5 games.
Yeah, that's fair.

But still, I expect it to be the New Year before we consistently see a lineup that most of us consider a no-brainer.

sportfireman
11-09-2010, 01:49 PM
I'd throw up if we paired Price with Dunleavy. Disgusting.

I've been trowing up since Dunleavy was paired with this team.........:-o

Anthem
11-09-2010, 01:53 PM
Ignore doesn't work on derailed threads

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1315/5161961628_25b7b80331_d.jpg

:tmyk:

Sookie
11-09-2010, 01:53 PM
Yeah, that's fair.

But still, I expect it to be the New Year before we consistently see a lineup that most of us consider a no-brainer.

It's not that shocking though, JOB's crutch is his older crappy players. Because "they're experience helps us win" yea sure..

And this no brainer is:
Collison, AJ, BRush, Dun, Danny, George, Tyler, Josh, Roy..

That's two three-years players, three two-year players, one rookie, our best player, and one "vet"

The thought of this makes JOB cry...in fact..I don't know if we'll ever see the "no brainer" lineup.

Since86
11-09-2010, 01:56 PM
Somebody on twitter told Wells he needed to make sure his headline writer reads the articles. His response: "You're right about that. It was obviously a mistake. O'Brien even joked about it with me at practice."

I'm happy Jim gets a good laugh out of it. I usually laugh when I see his sub rotations too.

Trophy
11-09-2010, 02:00 PM
We better not be seeing any Posey action tonight and limited Dunleavy minutes and give the time to Paul and Brandon.

jcouts
11-09-2010, 03:03 PM
as a pacer fan living in denver (and obviously watching quite a few nuggets games), i'll chime in here.

i'm not really surprised. brandon's suspension aside, keeping mike with the starters makes more sense for tonight's game as long as his overall minutes aren't that much more than rush or george.

mike, from what i've observed is far less effective on offense with the second unit than he is with the starters, so i believe jim's keeping him with the starters to try to maximize his production.

moreover, i much prefer the matchup of mike against afflalo to start the game than for mike to match up against j.r. smith off the bench. afflalo plays a fairly systematic style at the start of nuggets games with quite a few corner threes from ball reversal and limited shots created on his own unless the shot clock is winding down. if mike can make the closeouts on him on the reversal plays or kickouts from billups in the post, it should be a fairly even match. j.r. on the other hand is a wildcard type of player who usually starts his game from the top of the key and tends to score in bunches when disarray arrives in the game. his release is quicker than afflalo and he's quicker with the ball than afflalo. i'd much rather see brandon match up with him off the bench than mike. i think brandon can take advantage of him on the other end better than mike as well, since j.r. generally only shows up to play defense when kobe's in town.

plus, since he knows melo's game better than anyone on our squad, i fully expect to see dahntay get at least some spot minutes matched up against melo this evening. so that's another factor to consider.

Will Galen
11-09-2010, 03:49 PM
I can't belive that anyone would defend JOB at this point, Devil's Advocate or not. It truly amazes me.

It amazes me you are amazed at anything that's said on the Internet!

I don't care what it is, it could be a fact written in stone and witnessed by 5 billion people and some dummy would disagree.

As for JO'B, or any coach for that matter, they could win the NBA championship and someone wouldn't like the way it was done and would complain about it.

Ah . . . never mind!

Trophy
11-09-2010, 04:05 PM
I'm excited to see Brandon play tonight.

Don't crush my excitement JOB.