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vnzla81
11-05-2010, 09:02 PM
Pacers lose Pacers lose



Thanks God Rush is coming back.

vnzla81
11-05-2010, 09:06 PM
The defense looked better today, the starting team was garbage again(DC was ok) and Jim decided to make some changes at the end of the game.

Mackey_Rose
11-05-2010, 09:06 PM
The coaches sucked, the players sucked, the refs sucked, Area 55 sucked.

Signed,

Jim Mora

vnzla81
11-05-2010, 09:08 PM
The coaches sucked, the players sucked, the refs sucked, Area 55 sucked.

Signed,

Jim Mora

:laugh::laugh:

BringJackBack
11-05-2010, 09:09 PM
I'm just going to add to what I posted earlier.


I don't know what to say.

We are a very sloppy team. We have sloppy turnovers and we just look raw. We have good defense but we go on these extremely confusing lapses. That is a young team thing. That will change over time. I'm not worried about that.

Paul George and Tyler Hansbrough had very good stretches and they bring energy. I thought that they'd be playing in the fourth quarter, but of course not.

This brings me to my next thing and I understand that this sounds very cliche. I don't understand how Jim didn't make the adjustments to win the game. James Posey had a thirty second stretch where he hit two threes in a row. Other than that, he simply did not play well, as expected. Paul George was playing very good defense and getting out on the break and was looking for his shot but he got benched for Mike Dunleavy who has looked bad for five games in a row. I'm not bashing him, but his role is simply way too large for him. He's just a poor man's Luke Walton nowadays.

But it's okay, I almost expected that.

Then we didn't foul when we obviously needed to. What the heck?! After we get called on a controversial call, on the inbounds something caught my eye that really grinded my gears (Peter Griffin lol). After the second inbounds at the 5.1 mark, Jim has the audacity to bench Darren Collison, who was the only player that helped us come back, for TJ Ford who hasn't even outplayed AJ Price to be the backup point guard, he got it by playing favorites. Josh McRoberts disappeared. Wow.

I will make a prediction. By the next three games, James Posey will be starting. This makes no sense at all. This isn't an overreaction at all to me because we can see the trend.

Yuck. Let's turn it around. I don't think we can do it with Jim here.

And I don't even feel bad about the players. We have a handful of young players and if we had a common sense coach than I feel like we could win some games. We know that Paul George and Brandon Rush are better than Mike Dunleavy, Animal Crackers better than Posey, AJ and Collison better than Ford; Why are these players in at not only the end of games, better yet at all- with the exception of Mike who I think should play about 15-20 minutes per game.

I gave Jim the fairest of all chances, but he's slipped up too many times. We've went iso-motion all game for the past two games, and the players that stop this- AJ, McRoberts, and Hibbert- either aren't being properly utilized or aren't playing at all.

In the fourth Roy was in the high post way too much. Roy has always been a good low post scorer, why so much high post-find cutters offense late in the games? I think that this is going unnoticed and this is a big thing for me in my opinion. This is very frustrating. On top of that, he have Darren Collison running around like a madman because he only has Roy at the high post, Danny at the three not moving, Mike who you don't want to give the ball, and Posey camped at the three. If he had a player who could move without the ball AND push the ball after misses, Paul George, and a power forward who could push the tempo, Josh or Tyler, I feel like we could be a lot different. I feel like I'm just preaching to the choir now so I'll stop with this.

Something I noticed is that when the Pacers were going into the locker room, Danny Granger looked ****ed. He looked so mad that he was teary eyed. I just wanted to point that out.

I thought that Paul George played his game tonight, but TJ Ford just doesn't get him the ball. He had a very nice dunk and really tried to have a breakout performance this game. That lefty scoop was impressive.

Our second unit really needs some tweaking. Why is Solo getting the ball at all? He is used the same way that Roy is used, and every single time he misses and/or turns the ball over (which, to be fair, is what Roy did almost all game too). TJ Ford is starting to turn into old TJ again. Dribble for twenty seconds, and then go into turbo mode into mid range jumpshot or turnover. We saw Posey and Ford do the same shuffle-shuffle back run around at the three point line pick 'n pop that I thought that I would never see again that TJ and Murph used to do.

With the second unit, it comes down to Solo and TJ shouldn't have the ball in their hands and instead it should be Paul George or AJ Price.

colts19
11-05-2010, 09:09 PM
Just got home and haven't watched the game. I have it DVR'd. I looked at the box score and saw Posey with over 30 mins and tyler and josh with about 20 combined. Did they get injured, or is obrien just a complete idot.

McKeyFan
11-05-2010, 09:10 PM
Posey 28 minutes. Hans 10 minutes. That's what lost us this game.

Jim O'Stubborn will keep this nonsense up all year. I don't know if I can bear it.

vnzla81
11-05-2010, 09:12 PM
Just got home and haven't watched the game. I have it DVR'd. I looked at the box score and saw Posey with over 30 mins and tyler and josh with about 20 combined. Did they get injured, or is obrian just a complete idot.

Posey made two three pointers, JOB was drooling and then decided to keep him in the game.

vnzla81
11-05-2010, 09:14 PM
How many minutes Dunleavy played compared to PG?

jmoney2584
11-05-2010, 09:14 PM
posted this in the game thread but evidentally everyone is over here and i'm not happy unless everyone hears my rants that are the same as everyone elses.... If JOB can be Stubborn and get away with it for years then I surely can for one post. I present-

First off, I'm not even going to begin to blame the officials. That last call against Hibbert (the offensive foul) could have gone either way. Ultimately turnovers killed us. Danny, while he played some solid D tonight, I did see him take a few plays off and not close out on the shooter, not as many as Dunleavy (don't get me started) but enough to matter. His shooting was awful and his turnovers were the worst. I've fought it for a long time because I want to believe, but while Danny is a good scorer, and can be a good defender..he just isn't the guy to lead your team. Plain and simple.

So, turnovers aside...we had a chance to still win this thing in the end. That shot by Danny with 30 some odd seconds left was atrocious. Thats the shot you take after you use your shot clock to the max to get a good shot, foul on the imbound, and given they miss one or so THEN maybe take that shot. Yet instead, he misses horribly. Then comes the real ***** bomb...JOB DOESN'T call for the intentional foul!! WOW..I was screaming for it as soon as the inbound happened, but for some reason we let them play out the clock, Roy got some questionable officiating thrown his way and we took forever to devlop our final inbounds play after Mike "I fake playing hard" Dunleavy can't get the ball inbounds do to indecisiveness culminated with a complete lack of movement from his teamates (This was more the fault of the team than Mike's, but I hate Dunleavy and love every chance I have to single him out with a little extra distaste).

The sad thing is, we had some good stretches of REALLY good looking defense. Our offense was not so much...Late in the third or maybe it was early fourth when we had TJ, Posey, Dunleavy, Solo, and George in I was furious. The D was good, but there was no offense to speak of except for Paul George's but he is a rookie and you can't expect to ride him the whole way with that squad on the floor. Why all those guys were in at the same time I do not know, but that was our chance to establish a better lead, but the personnel choices were awful.

Ultimately, I put this loss on the whole team because we shouldn't have been in the late game situation we were, but JOB really got me upset with that lack of a foul down the stretch...simply horrible coaching.

I guarantee there is some finger pointing going on in the locker room after this game. This was our chance to get some confidence into the team an d the fanbase after an embarassing loss at Philly. Instead, we crumbled at home. The crowd was into it down the stretch but the Pacers let us/them down yet again. This is why people don't come to games. When they show up and actually give a ***** about the team, the team let's them down. Why would they come back? No one wants to spend $35 a pop to get their hearts ripped out and their faces slapped. To think we have to wait four days until our next game with this unbearable loss on our hearts and minds disgusts me. I have faith for us, but I think we just walked into a losing streak bigger than two games. The lockeroom blame game will kill our chemistry before these next games against fairly tough opponents. I seriously pick us to be 2-6 before we win another game. As much as it hurts and I usually sip a lot of kool-aid, but I think this game was very damaging to the team and the fan base at a critical time early in the season when casual fans are tuning in to see how we look, only to get losses like this and philly. Not how you get a fan base back boys, not at all. Like last loss, I really wish this hurt the team like it hurts us. Go Pacers (seriously, not sarcastically...just makes me sad because I know there are people like Roy on the team who want to win so bad and I feel for them because I want them to win too)

rock747
11-05-2010, 09:16 PM
I think Pacer's fans main worry should be Granger... he doesn't look like himself? Looking like he doesn't care out there...

Psycho T
11-05-2010, 09:17 PM
Just got home and haven't watched the game. I have it DVR'd. I looked at the box score and saw Posey with over 30 mins and tyler and josh with about 20 combined. Did they get injured, or is obrien just a complete idot.

McBob couldnt help but foul every time down the floor - Hansbrough didnt make a 3 - Posey made 2 or 3 of them = Posey with 30 minutes.

PacerPenguins
11-05-2010, 09:18 PM
haha look at this

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=31412

today it would be like maybe 1 yes and 99 no's

colts19
11-05-2010, 09:19 PM
How many minutes Dunleavy played compared to PG?

mike 38 to 14

Psycho T
11-05-2010, 09:19 PM
I think Pacer's fans main worry should be Granger... he doesn't look like himself? Looking like he doesn't care out there...

Its the look of someone being ice cold.. Not that he doesnt care.

Hoop
11-05-2010, 09:21 PM
I didn't think I'd be so down this early in the season. I just don't see any hope of ever having a stable lineup or rotation. It's took past February every season JOB has been here, I see no reason to see this season being any different.

Can we use the same rotation for at least 2 games, is that asking to much? come on jim.

vnzla81
11-05-2010, 09:22 PM
mike 38 to 14

good decision, we need the team defense and all the things he brings :rolleyes:

jmoney2584
11-05-2010, 09:22 PM
I think Pacer's fans main worry should be Granger... he doesn't look like himself? Looking like he doesn't care out there...

I don't think he looked like he didn't care, but he sure didn't come through for those who do. O'Brien is going to bury this team this year. We are so ready to break out, but our coach of all people is holding us down. F'ing ridiculous. I literally get shaky and ill when such blatant BS is thrown at me from this team. Posey with 30 minutes? Whoever mentioned JOB drooling over his two threes was on the money. His obsession with the three ball (yes i know the horse is dead) is just crazy.

Did JOB maybe miss a three pointer for the win in his only shot at a championship back in his playing days and that image has haunted him every day of his life, hence his obsession with it. Like that kicker from Ace Ventura...laces out!

PacerPenguins
11-05-2010, 09:24 PM
http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=31412

Sandman21
11-05-2010, 09:24 PM
Posey 28 minutes. Hans 10 minutes. That's what lost us this game.
Solo also had 13 minutes more than he should have seen....

PaceBalls
11-05-2010, 09:27 PM
Posey 28 minutes. Hans 10 minutes. That's what lost us this game.

Jim O'Stubborn will keep this nonsense up all year. I don't know if I can bear it.

Me either man. Actually, I haven't been able to stand it for 2 years now.

All the BS talk he does before the games but never follows through with anything he is saying.
:banghead:
The horrible stubborness of sticking with bad players because they are "vets who give us the best chance to win" who continually have terrible game after terrible game, (actually I thought James was ok tonight, but Dunleavy... 38 minutes WHY JIM WHY??) especially when the rookie comes in and plays amazing defense, nailing clutch shots...
:banghead:
The terrible end game management. 26 seconds in the game 24 seconds on the shot clock, 2 points down, the oppenent has the ball... why isn't our coach screaming for the team to foul right away?? Even worse, not fouling on purpose... Not to mention the lineup out there included Mike Dunleavy who of course was iso'd out and abused for a foul with 5 seconds left.
:banghead:

WTF Jim!?

We are in for a long season, because the boys tried hard tonight, but how long will they keep trying for this coach? Get ready for 9 game losing streak.

Trophy
11-05-2010, 09:27 PM
I've been wanting to hear an MG "trifecta!" from the wing players like Danny, Mike, James (playing SF), and Paul who usually/should make them.

rock747
11-05-2010, 09:30 PM
Mike Dunleavy is a smart player, but the guy cannot shoot.

Trophy
11-05-2010, 09:30 PM
Thanks God Rush is coming back.

His defense is needed and I'm thrilled he's finally coming back.

vnzla81
11-05-2010, 09:31 PM
Mike Dunleavy is a smart player, but the guy cannot play.

fixed

pacers101
11-05-2010, 09:32 PM
Hey guys I was at the game tonight and one of the things I noticed was that out of every timeout the Bucks called they had a very nice play that resulted in a good shot for them. Whenever JOB called a timeout, we seemed to run the same terrible play with Granger getting the ball at the top of the key and coming off a screen for a 20 foot jumper that he missed all night.
Secondly, scoring 30 points ALL second half isn't acceptable with the type of offensive talent this team has so JOB has to take a lot of the blame with his terrible rotations. George was being aggressive and playing well but he barely played in the 4th. Meanwhile, Dunleavy who hasnt made an open jumper all season and is a defensive liability gets all the minutes.
Finally, im starting to believe that with JOB wanting to run his offense no matter what, we could have Chris Paul at point guard and he probably wouldnt be very effective. The fact of the matter is that our offense doesn't take advantage of the talents of the PG at all. JOB only uses the PG to run the ball up the court and he forces him to give it up right away and 90% of the time he doesnt see the ball the rest of the possesion. In my opinion, most of our offensive sets should start with Darren and Roy running the pick and roll. Darren was fabulous last year running the offense for NO and he had lesser talent around him than he does here. JOB needs to let DC play the way he did in the hornets offense last year.

flox
11-05-2010, 09:37 PM
And I don't even feel bad about the players. We have a handful of young players and if we had a common sense coach than I feel like we could win some games. We know that Paul George and Brandon Rush are better than Mike Dunleavy, Animal Crackers better than Posey, AJ and Collison better than Ford; Why are these players in at not only the end of games, better yet at all- with the exception of Mike who I think should play about 15-20 minutes per game.

ok, come on now, Paul George looks good and hits shots and all of that- but when both players are shooting the same percentage Dunleavy is much better- he's better in the defensive system, at passing the ball and moving in the offense. I don't think Collison has played all that well, and while AJ should get a shot TJ hasn't played poorly.

At the end of the day it comes down to if we are willing to let Dunleavy get out of his shooting slump or not. And Rush still isn't available.



I gave Jim the fairest of all chances, but he's slipped up too many times. We've went iso-motion all game for the past two games, and the players that stop this- AJ, McRoberts, and Hibbert- either aren't being properly utilized or aren't playing at all.
Hibbert was shooting poorly today. He was making some bad decisions passing with the ball. McRoberts did not come to play at all today 11 minutes and 4 fouls are unacceptable. I approve of the benching.



In the fourth Roy was in the high post way too much. Roy has always been a good low post scorer, why so much high post-find cutters offense late in the games? I think that this is going unnoticed and this is a big thing for me in my opinion. This is very frustrating. On top of that, he have Darren Collison running around like a madman because he only has Roy at the high post, Danny at the three not moving, Mike who you don't want to give the ball, and Posey camped at the three. If he had a player who could move without the ball AND push the ball after misses, Paul George, and a power forward who could push the tempo, Josh or Tyler, I feel like we could be a lot different. I feel like I'm just preaching to the choir now so I'll stop with this.

I wish I had access to the data websites right now but Roy hasn't been shooting well this season at all, and its easy to push him out in the low post when he tries to execute his hook. So far, his low post play has left a lot to be desired for. I wish he was playing in the high post more- it would make him much more effective.

What you are asking for is just not in our personel. Our team isn't built this way. Our offensive system when working, maximizes the strength of all of our players.


Just got home and haven't watched the game. I have it DVR'd. I looked at the box score and saw Posey with over 30 mins and tyler and josh with about 20 combined. Did they get injured, or is obrien just a complete idot.
Josh had 4 fouls in 11 minutes. Tyler had 3 in 9 minutes- the longer we left them in the more fouls we'd give up- a very bad thing.



First off, I'm not even going to begin to blame the officials. That last call against Hibbert (the offensive foul) could have gone either way. Ultimately turnovers killed us. Danny, while he played some solid D tonight, I did see him take a few plays off and not close out on the shooter, not as many as Dunleavy (don't get me started) but enough to matter. His shooting was awful and his turnovers were the worst. I've fought it for a long time because I want to believe, but while Danny is a good scorer, and can be a good defender..he just isn't the guy to lead your team. Plain and simple.

Agreed here. 19 turnovers again tonight, 13 combined by Roy and Granger. Saddening.


So, turnovers aside...we had a chance to still win this thing in the end. That shot by Danny with 30 some odd seconds left was atrocious. Thats the shot you take after you use your shot clock to the max to get a good shot, foul on the imbound, and given they miss one or so THEN maybe take that shot. Yet instead, he misses horribly. Then comes the real ***** bomb...JOB DOESN'T call for the intentional foul!! WOW..I was screaming for it as soon as the inbound happened, but for some reason we let them play out the clock, Roy got some questionable officiating thrown his way and we took forever to devlop our final inbounds play after Mike "I fake playing hard" Dunleavy can't get the ball inbounds do to indecisiveness culminated with a complete lack of movement from his teamates (This was more the fault of the team than Mike's, but I hate Dunleavy and love every chance I have to single him out with a little extra distaste).

I still am of the belief that you don't foul there. Fouling there is just bad- you have to trust your defense to get the stop and we probably did get the stop-I believe the call was blown. But besides that, I don't think you foul there. Why foul against a team shooting well from the line tonight- you can control the shot attempt they take against your defense- but fouling just puts them on the line- you can't control that and if they hit both there you have to hit a quick two or a three. If they miss you can hit a easy 2 to tie or a three to win. Giving them points in that sitation at the line is less preferable than defending there- you have an 70% chance of being forced to make a three if you foul and .49 chance of the lead being 4.

With they way there were shooting at 38% you go for the defense there.

I firmly am in the no-foul in that situation.

pwee31
11-05-2010, 09:38 PM
It was funny b/c someone posted the interview from Pacers.com yesterday of O'Brien saying Hansbrough was the 1st big off the bench, and someone comment "uh oh, looks like Posey will be the 1st off the bench again". I actually laughed when he checked in b/c it was the more manly thing to do than cry.

The sad part is we have a couple chances to blow the game open, but we missed shots and of course turned the ball over. When the Bucks kept hanging around, there was no doubt in my mind the Pacers would find a way to lose this game. O'Brien's rotations just reassured me of my gut feeling.

It's early and I'm trying very hard to stay positive about the young team we have, but it's really hard to do when you can't stand the coach and he's too busy playing the veterans who will not be on this team beyond this year? I understand you need a mixture of vets, but they don't have to play the minutes they are playing.

I would much rather see Price than Ford and Hansbrough and McRoberts than Posey and Solo. Sad part is I think the team would have better results on the floor if this were the case as well?

*Sigh*

jmoney2584
11-05-2010, 09:44 PM
I still am of the belief that you don't foul there. Fouling there is just bad- you have to trust your defense to get the stop and we probably did get the stop-I believe the call was blown. But besides that, I don't think you foul there. Why foul against a team shooting well from the line tonight- you can control the shot attempt they take against your defense- but fouling just puts them on the line- you can't control that and if they hit both there you have to hit a quick two or a three. If they miss you can hit a easy 2 to tie or a three to win. Giving them points in that sitation at the line is less preferable than defending there- you have an 70% chance of being forced to make a three if you foul and .49 chance of the lead being 4.

With they way there were shooting at 38% you go for the defense there.

I firmly am in the no-foul in that situation.

Agree to disagree. I definitely see your arguement, but like you had faith in our defense, I didn't have faith in our offense bc of the way it had been bogging down down the stretch.

And the call was blown, his left leg jiggled a little which may have been what the ref saw, but Roy was there for certain. I can't put it on the refs though. Had we not squandered our lead in the first place we could have just played D to close out and not had to worry about all these other shennanigans that occured. Cheers.

jmoney2584
11-05-2010, 09:49 PM
It was funny b/c someone posted the interview from Pacers.com yesterday of O'Brien saying Hansbrough was the 1st big off the bench, and someone comment "uh oh, looks like Posey will be the 1st off the bench again". I actually laughed when he checked in b/c it was the more manly thing to do than cry.

The sad part is we have a couple chances to blow the game open, but we missed shots and of course turned the ball over. When the Bucks kept hanging around, there was no doubt in my mind the Pacers would find a way to lose this game. O'Brien's rotations just reassured me of my gut feeling.

It's early and I'm trying very hard to stay positive about the young team we have, but it's really hard to do when you can't stand the coach and he's too busy playing the veterans who will not be on this team beyond this year? I understand you need a mixture of vets, but they don't have to play the minutes they are playing.

I would much rather see Price than Ford and Hansbrough and McRoberts than Posey and Solo. Sad part is I think the team would have better results on the floor if this were the case as well?

*Sigh*

100 percent with you... like, i feel a kinship between us now haha. So F'ing true though man. As much as ALL OF US are tired of the same ol' JOB bashing...it is so warranted. SOOO warranted. If we held it in we'd pass out, aneurism, something along those lines. It's awful. The feeling I get about JOB is similar to the feeling I got with certain ex-girlfriends that became bitter and purposely tried to make your life *****.

Mr_Smith
11-05-2010, 09:49 PM
I missed the game because I was out and I dvr'ed it.....Horrible call on Hibbert towards the end when it definitely should have been a charge.

BlueNGold
11-05-2010, 09:56 PM
Yawn. Yes, the "first big off the bench" is classic O'Brien-speak. Says one thing. Does another. I'm no longer surprised by his statements, and quite frankly they mean nothing.

I was not surprised after Posey hit some early threes that Jim wouldn't be able to take him off the floor. Jim must have been missing Troy tonight. While I wanted Hans or McRoberts in the game, I will always want them in the game over guys who are not only probably worse, but also not getting better at the game.

Anyway, Bird just needs to be careful not to acquire 3 point shooters that have no other good qualities. I blame Posey on Bird...although it was still a great trade. He knew for a fact JOb was a three point addict...and Larry still served him.

pacer4ever
11-05-2010, 09:57 PM
Roy and Paul are class acts

pacer4ever
11-05-2010, 09:58 PM
How many minutes Dunleavy played compared to PG?

That missed me off i want tyler and PG in there 2 close mike is god awful

Mr_Smith
11-05-2010, 10:00 PM
Its getting ready to get real ugly.....i don't expect a win when Denver comes in here. from 2-1 to 2-4 just like that....wow:(

flox
11-05-2010, 10:02 PM
Agree to disagree. I definitely see your arguement, but like you had faith in our defense, I didn't have faith in our offense bc of the way it had been bogging down down the stretch.


Fair enough. My question for you then is- with the lack of faith in our offense- would fouling really given us a better shot?

pacer4ever
11-05-2010, 10:02 PM
posted this in the game thread but evidentally everyone is over here and i'm not happy unless everyone hears my rants that are the same as everyone elses.... If JOB can be Stubborn and get away with it for years then I surely can for one post. I present-

First off, I'm not even going to begin to blame the officials. That last call against Hibbert (the offensive foul) could have gone either way. Ultimately turnovers killed us. Danny, while he played some solid D tonight, I did see him take a few plays off and not close out on the shooter, not as many as Dunleavy (don't get me started) but enough to matter. His shooting was awful and his turnovers were the worst. I've fought it for a long time because I want to believe, but while Danny is a good scorer, and can be a good defender..he just isn't the guy to lead your team. Plain and simple.

So, turnovers aside...we had a chance to still win this thing in the end. That shot by Danny with 30 some odd seconds left was atrocious. Thats the shot you take after you use your shot clock to the max to get a good shot, foul on the imbound, and given they miss one or so THEN maybe take that shot. Yet instead, he misses horribly. Then comes the real ***** bomb...JOB DOESN'T call for the intentional foul!! WOW..I was screaming for it as soon as the inbound happened, but for some reason we let them play out the clock, Roy got some questionable officiating thrown his way and we took forever to devlop our final inbounds play after Mike "I fake playing hard" Dunleavy can't get the ball inbounds do to indecisiveness culminated with a complete lack of movement from his teamates (This was more the fault of the team than Mike's, but I hate Dunleavy and love every chance I have to single him out with a little extra distaste).

The sad thing is, we had some good stretches of REALLY good looking defense. Our offense was not so much...Late in the third or maybe it was early fourth when we had TJ, Posey, Dunleavy, Solo, and George in I was furious. The D was good, but there was no offense to speak of except for Paul George's but he is a rookie and you can't expect to ride him the whole way with that squad on the floor. Why all those guys were in at the same time I do not know, but that was our chance to establish a better lead, but the personnel choices were awful.

Ultimately, I put this loss on the whole team because we shouldn't have been in the late game situation we were, but JOB really got me upset with that lack of a foul down the stretch...simply horrible coaching.

I guarantee there is some finger pointing going on in the locker room after this game. This was our chance to get some confidence into the team an d the fanbase after an embarassing loss at Philly. Instead, we crumbled at home. The crowd was into it down the stretch but the Pacers let us/them down yet again. This is why people don't come to games. When they show up and actually give a ***** about the team, the team let's them down. Why would they come back? No one wants to spend $35 a pop to get their hearts ripped out and their faces slapped. To think we have to wait four days until our next game with this unbearable loss on our hearts and minds disgusts me. I have faith for us, but I think we just walked into a losing streak bigger than two games. The lockeroom blame game will kill our chemistry before these next games against fairly tough opponents. I seriously pick us to be 2-6 before we win another game. As much as it hurts and I usually sip a lot of kool-aid, but I think this game was very damaging to the team and the fan base at a critical time early in the season when casual fans are tuning in to see how we look, only to get losses like this and philly. Not how you get a fan base back boys, not at all. Like last loss, I really wish this hurt the team like it hurts us. Go Pacers (seriously, not sarcastically...just makes me sad because I know there are people like Roy on the team who want to win so bad and I feel for them because I want them to win too)

he just refused to make adjustment. Paul and tyler we needed down the strecth. Tj needs to get benched i want AJ. MIKE PLAYS ZERO DEFENSE HE IS A LIABLITY. We needed to foul with 25 seconds left not 5

RUSH IS BACK TUESDAY :):):):)
:censored::censored:FIRE JOB NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:censored:

pacer4ever
11-05-2010, 10:04 PM
[QUOTE=jmoney2584;1091072]Agree to disagree. I definitely see your arguement, but like you had faith in our defense, I didn't have faith in our offense bc of the way it had been bogging down down the stretch.
[QUOTE]

Fair enough. My question for you then is- with the lack of faith in our offense- would fouling really given us a better shot?

there was a 2 second differece in the shot clock .u have to be retarted not to foul

our offense was poor because we werent running thru Roy like JOB promisaed pre game IM DONE WITH THIS :censored:

gummy
11-05-2010, 10:07 PM
RUSH IS BACK TUESDAY :):):):)


I hope you don't expect him to play!

Then again, JOB did say he wouldn't play much and we know how that often goes... ;)

I really have no clue what the coach will do with Rush. Anything from DNP-CD to 30 minutes would not surprise me.

vnzla81
11-05-2010, 10:07 PM
Fair enough. My question for you then is- with the lack of faith in our offense- would fouling really given us a better shot?

yes, because according to you we have one of the best closers on the team on TJ. :laugh:

pacer4ever
11-05-2010, 10:09 PM
I've been wanting to hear an MG "trifecta!" from the wing players like Danny, Mike, James (playing SF), and Paul who usually/should make them.

i told Paul after the game u cant be stoped when u drive to the bucket. "i am starting to figure that out" i blame JOB he puts paul in the cornor and is just suppose to stand at the 3 pt line. :censored: THAT Let paul and the rest of the players do wht they do best JOB. JOB ur man crush with Mike has gone to far benh him he is a scrub. LANCE PLAYS BETTER DEFENSE AND WAY BETTER OFFENSE.



:censored: u :censored: u JOB

jmoney2584
11-05-2010, 10:10 PM
Fair enough. My question for you then is- with the lack of faith in our offense- would fouling really given us a better shot?

I was of the mind that by extending the game, we would get multiple shots at the goal and with any luck and a little help from them potentially missing, maybe the odds would be in our favor. We'd have had more clock to work with than we did with the way things went down. I dunno, just what my feeling was ya know? At this point it doesn't matter about the woulda, coulda, shouldas....the team just disappointed a lot of fans during a crucial stage of fanbase development.

I fully believe that the most critical times in building a fanbase are at the beginning of the year (when people have had the whole summer to look at roster changes, read hype, get over the previous season, etc.) and the playoffs. We haven't had the playoffs and they are by no means a lock this year, so we need to start off strong and get that following rolling so they can be there when/IF we do make the playoffs in larger numbers than they would be if we sucked it up and barely squeek in with the 8th seed.

Word of the day: Disappointment.

pacer4ever
11-05-2010, 10:13 PM
I was of the mind that by extending the game, we would get multiple shots at the goal and with any luck and a little help from them potentially missing, maybe the odds would be in our favor. We'd have had more clock to work with than we did with the way things went down. I dunno, just what my feeling was ya know? At this point it doesn't matter about the woulda, coulda, shouldas....the team just disappointed a lot of fans during a crucial stage of fanbase development.

I fully believe that the most critical times in building a fanbase are at the beginning of the year (when people have had the whole summer to look at roster changes, read hype, get over the previous season, etc.) and the playoffs. We haven't had the playoffs and they are by no means a lock this year, so we need to start off strong and get that following rolling so they can be there when/IF we do make the playoffs in larger numbers than they would be if we sucked it up and barely squeek in with the 8th seed.

Word of the day: Disappointment.


bro u had to foul 2 sec differental of the shot clock time would of expired and we woulnt of got a shot off JOB IS RETARTED

D-BONE
11-05-2010, 10:13 PM
Collison looks okay, but he's not yet anywhere near the level of PG some here had anointed him. You can complain about JOB not using him to his strengths. I am not overly impressed by his crossover and/or finishing ability in the open floor.

Personally, was not thrilled with Granger tonight. Don't think the guy will ever be proficient driving the ball more than a couple dribbles. He's a shooter offensively and that's about it. D has maybe improved to fair.

We have virtually no offensive rebounding.

Bucks are a tough team, but without Bogut we should be able to take advantage at home and with a chip on our shoulder after the Philly drubbing.

Other than that, things seem just like the last two years. Hope Rush helps somehow. Hope George sees more court time. Hopefully we'll develop an identity. There's still time.

flox
11-05-2010, 10:16 PM
there was a 2 second differece in the shot clock .u have to be retarted not to foul

our offense was poor because we werent running thru Roy like JOB promisaed pre game IM DONE WITH THIS :censored:

Roy had plenty of touches tonight.

And 2 seconds is a ton of time to get a good shot- we've seen gamewinners hit with less time on the clock.


yes, because according to you we have one of the best closers on the team on TJ. :laugh:

We do. Why else would he be in crunch time. Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that he could still be a closer at the shot he excels in (elbow jumper 2) with a missed shot rather than fouling.


I was of the mind that by extending the game, we would get multiple shots at the goal and with any luck and a little help from them potentially missing, maybe the odds would be in our favor. We'd have had more clock to work with than we did with the way things went down. I dunno, just what my feeling was ya know? At this point it doesn't matter about the woulda, coulda, shouldas....the team just disappointed a lot of fans during a crucial stage of fanbase development.
Yeah, I understand that. I just feel like i'd rather make them take lower percetange shots from the field than higher ones at the line. But i haven't ran the numbers in my head yet, so you might be right about fouling. I'll work on them tonight.

BlueNGold
11-05-2010, 10:18 PM
bro u had to foul 2 sec differental of the shot clock time would of expired and we woulnt of got a shot off JOB IS RETARTED

This makes so much sense, I can read through the poor spelling.

I don't think any competitive teams would have let the clock run in that situation. In fact, the fouling would have started way before the last 25 seconds of the game. Not sure who to blame, but I think he has white side burns.

Mr_Smith
11-05-2010, 10:22 PM
If this makes anybody happy......pacers are still tied for first in the division (because chicago is sucking as well) and currently 7th in the conference. I know its early but its a small positive.:laugh:

pacer4ever
11-05-2010, 10:25 PM
This makes so much sense, I can read through the poor spelling.

I don't think any competitive teams would have let the clock run in that situation. In fact, the fouling would have started way before the last 25 seconds of the game. Not sure who to blame, but I think he has white side burns.

YA IM SRY BOUT THE SPELLING BUT I AM SO PISSED RIGHT NOW I AM VENTING.


I WOULDD HAVE ALSO WENT 2 FOR 1 INSTEAD OF WAITING FOR 26 SEC. TO SHOOT.

I WANT TO BE A COACH AND I WOULD HAVE SUBED AT THE 5MIN MARK. PG24 IN FOR MIKE AND TYLER FOR POSEY.

I WOULD HAVE ALSO NOT LIED AND RAN THE OFFENSE THUR ROY.


HE DID THE OPPISTE OF WHAT HE SAID PREGAME TO QUINN BUCKNER

pacer4ever
11-05-2010, 10:27 PM
Roy had plenty of touches tonight.

And 2 seconds is a ton of time to get a good shot- we've seen gamewinners hit with less time on the clock.



We do. Why else would he be in crunch time. Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that he could still be a closer at the shot he excels in (elbow jumper 2) with a missed shot rather than fouling.


Yeah, I understand that. I just feel like i'd rather make them take lower percetange shots from the field than higher ones at the line. But i haven't ran the numbers in my head yet, so you might be right about fouling. I'll work on them tonight.

2 sec differental, once they shoot a 3 with 2 secs left there would have been 0 secs left HELL THEY COULD HAVE THREW THE BALL HIGH IN THE AIR AND RAN THE CLOCK ALL THE WAY DOWN

BlueNGold
11-05-2010, 10:27 PM
Also, 2 seconds is enough time to get a shot off...but not a ton of time.

Anyway, the fact is that when you are down, you want to manage the clock to get MORE possessions....not simply a chance to chuck one more three.

xBulletproof
11-05-2010, 10:28 PM
And 2 seconds is a ton of time to get a good shot- we've seen gamewinners hit with less time on the clock.

You're correct, but if I'm playing on offense, you're not getting any seconds to get a shot. I'll wait until the last second to shoot, and my shot will PURPOSELY be a rainbow so that those last 2 seconds run off while the ball is either in the air, or coming off the rim for the rebound.

I've done it before. The second I saw we weren't fouling I immediately knew what I'd do. I can't believe they didn't see that.

It's absolutely moronic to not foul. MORONIC. That's the same thought I had during a game when I did it to the other team.

BlueNGold
11-05-2010, 10:29 PM
YA IM SRY BOUT THE SPELLING BUT I AM SO PISSED RIGHT NOW I AM VENTING.


I WOULDD HAVE ALSO WENT 2 FOR 1 INSTEAD OF WAITING FOR 26 SEC. TO SHOOT.

I WANT TO BE A COACH AND I WOULD HAVE SUBED AT THE 5MIN MARK. PG24 IN FOR MIKE AND TYLER FOR POSEY.

I WOULD HAVE ALSO NOT LIED AND RAN THE OFFENSE THUR ROY.


HE DID THE OPPISTE OF WHAT HE SAID PREGAME TO QUINN BUCKNER

No sweat on the spelling. I can handle one poster doing it, particularly a smart poster.

I would have rode Tyler and McBob as far as they would take me...and if it was a loss, so be it.

pacer4ever
11-05-2010, 10:29 PM
You're correct, but if I'm playing on offense, you're not getting any seconds to get a shot. I'll wait until the last second to shoot, and my shot will PURPOSELY be a rainbow so that those last 2 seconds run off while the ball is either in the air, or coming off the rim for the rebound.

I've done it before. The second I saw we weren't fouling I immediately knew what I'd do. I can't believe they didn't see that.

It's absolutely moronic to not foul. MORONIC.

THATS MY POINT TY U SO MUCH.


the 2 sec out of bounds in phx we had the ball. 0% chane we get a shot off if we didnt

vnzla81
11-05-2010, 10:30 PM
I would say that their defense was better today, Danny was trying harder even had few block shots, the Bucks were making tough shots, not to keep beating the same dead horse but to me Dun,Solo and Posey were sucking on both sides, Mcbob also had a bad night.

I can't still understand why TJ is still playing if he is hurt and is not helping the team, once again Hans and PG were playing well and JOB decided to replace them at the end of the game for veterans that are worse, guys get ready for the losing streak.

pacer4ever
11-05-2010, 10:30 PM
No sweat on the spelling. I can handle one poster doing it, particularly a smart poster.

I would have rode Tyler and McBob as far as they would take me...and if it was a loss, so be it.

ya i can handle a loss but not one caused by the coach.

Miller-Time
11-05-2010, 10:33 PM
I think Pacer's fans main worry should be Granger... he doesn't look like himself? Looking like he doesn't care out there...

+1

pacer4ever
11-05-2010, 10:34 PM
I would say that their defense was better today, Danny was trying harder even had few block shots, the Bucks were making tough shots, not to keep beating the same dead horse but to me Dun,Solo and Posey were sucking on both sides, Mcbob also had a bad night.

I can't still understand why TJ is still playing if he is hurt and is not helping the team, once again Hans and PG were playing well and JOB decided to replace them at the end of the game for veterans that are worse, guys get ready for the losing streak.

im 17 and im smart enoght to know who should bee in thier to close that game. I am sick of dunleavy to bad JOB loves him . I would dress lance over dunleavy defense simalar lance D> mikes D.

BlueNGold
11-05-2010, 10:36 PM
Young guys are going to be inconsistent. Hans and McRoberts have never played a full season in the NBA.

Honestly, I think AJ Price is tucked away for the same reason the Pacers tucked away McRoberts last year. Dun, TJ and Posey (and their fat contracts) are being show-cased just like Murphy...and the real grand opening for the Pacers is next year. I truly believe that money is at the root of some of the "mysterious" decisions. There's a reason Collison, George, Granger, Hans and Hibbert are in that five-some picture. Don't be stupid. The Pacers know who the future is going to be...but they have some fat contracts to offload in the meantime.

BTW, the rest of the league is not naive. This show-casing is like shoveling a pile of poop into the display case. No one will be buying.

IndyMac
11-05-2010, 10:39 PM
I think Pacer's fans main worry should be Granger... he doesn't look like himself? Looking like he doesn't care out there...

Really? Can we please get off the roller coaster? He averaged 27 points through the first three games and shot over 50%. Then after 2 poor games you're saying he doesn't care? The season is 82 games long, players are going to have off nights.

odeez
11-05-2010, 10:41 PM
I think we lost the game because the Bucks are simply a better team with more experience, even without Bogut they kept it close and won it at the end. That's they way you want to do if you can on the road. That being said, DG has to work on his handles. He keeps making these passes and no one is there or dribbling it off his foot. I just don't understand it. I would complain about JOB, but I think that has been done enough. I will just let that take it's course. He won't be our coach much longer I hope.

Dun is just horrible, outside his rebounds tonight, he was useless. And at close to 10 million a year, he has to play better. It must be his knee or something? He is in a contract year and I thought he would play better. 11 pts is something, but at 38 mins for the game he has to bring more than that.

PG showed parts of his game tonight will make him shine in the future. But once he got going JOB pulled him. I know he is a rookie and JOB wants to stick with his rotations, whatever those are?

DC looked good, I liked his aggressiveness tonight getting 19 pts & 5 steals. I would like to see a lot more assist out of him though. But we have to remember he is only a second year player. Does anyone have any idea why he is not getting the assist he last year, is it JOB's system?

Mcbob got into foul trouble quick and was never able to get going.

Hans showed some glimpses of his old self, but again he just didn't play enough, only 9 mins.

Hibbert looked good at times, but seemed to be pressing. I still think they need to feed him the ball more. Still I like the 14 pts, 6 blks, 12 rebounds, & 4 assists - love that stat.

We still have a long way to go before we win games like tonight. Too many mistakes against a quality team like the Bucks and you will lose the game. It is easy to blame JOB, and I can't wait till he is gone, I just don't like his style of coaching. In my book he has had time to show what he can do as a coach and I can't wait till he is gone. Though tonight's loss I put on the players more then the coach. They have to stop making so many mistakes, this should have been a win.

pacer4ever
11-05-2010, 10:44 PM
Young guys are going to be inconsistent. Hans and McRoberts have never played a full season in the NBA.

Honestly, I think AJ Price is tucked away for the same reason the Pacers tucked away McRoberts last year. Dun, TJ and Posey (and their fat contracts) are being show-cased just like Murphy...and the real grand opening for the Pacers is next year. I truly believe that money is at the root of some of the "mysterious" decisions. There's a reason Collison, George, Granger, Hans and Hibbert are in that five-some picture. Don't be stupid. The Pacers know who the future is going to be...but they have some fat contracts to offload in the meantime.

BTW, the rest of the league is not naive. This show-casing is like shoveling a pile of poop into the display case. No one will be buying.

wish JOB knew that !



Jay Traino(raptors) is the perfect rebuliding coach he plays his young guys mostly over vets who wont be there. Ed Davis is gonna start once he is healthy over Reggie Evans :cry:(like reggie) but reggie is not a future player there which is smart. That is how OKC rebulit just saying we should have started this process in 07 we would be a legit playoff team now if we did.

IndyMac
11-05-2010, 10:45 PM
Honestly, I think AJ Price is tucked away for the same reason the Pacers tucked away McRoberts last year. Dun, TJ and Posey (and their fat contracts) are being show-cased just like Murphy...

I completely disagree. This does not fit with either Bird's or O'Brien's mentality and is not supported by any evidence. I don't believe Bird would tell a coach who should get minutes and I don't believe O'Brien would give someone minutes just to showcase him for a trade.

flox
11-05-2010, 10:47 PM
2 sec differental, once they shoot a 3 with 2 secs left there would have been 0 secs left HELL THEY COULD HAVE THREW THE BALL HIGH IN THE AIR AND RAN THE CLOCK ALL THE WAY DOWN
Highly doubtful that there would be no time left in the clock. Shooting a three is even a lower percentage shot when all you need is a two.

Also, 2 seconds is enough time to get a shot off...but not a ton of time.

Anyway, the fact is that when you are down, you want to manage the clock to get MORE possessions....not simply a chance to chuck one more three.

I don't think this is statistically right, but I'll check the numbers later tonight.


You're correct, but if I'm playing on offense, you're not getting any seconds to get a shot. I'll wait until the last second to shoot, and my shot will PURPOSELY be a rainbow so that those last 2 seconds run off while the ball is either in the air, or coming off the rim for the rebound.

I've done it before. The second I saw we weren't fouling I immediately knew what I'd do. I can't believe they didn't see that.

It's absolutely moronic to not foul. MORONIC. That's the same thought I had during a game when I did it to the other team.

however moronic it may be, the other team with a coach that many people on this board feels is top 5 did not try that tactic.

ApNeDtRiEeW
11-05-2010, 10:51 PM
Went to the game tonight for the first time this year. Even in a loss its a great experiance.

That being said, its pretty sad when a group of about twenty bucks fans is louder than the rest of the fieldhouse combined. Embarrasing actually.

Why the hell won't people get up and cheer these guys on? Even area 55 was getting drowned out by those guys. It's just confusing to me.

xBulletproof
11-05-2010, 10:52 PM
however moronic it may be, the other team with a coach that many people on this board feels is top 5 did not try that tactic.

I highly doubt that Skiles approved of what happened on that possession. There was no timeout, he didn't have a chance to try any "tactic". He also knows that if he yells out to his team to follow that direction, that they'll immediately foul. Pretty simple.

cdash
11-05-2010, 10:55 PM
Interesting game. The Bucks did not want to win it until the fourth quarter. Missed a ton of open shots tonight.

Our defense was better, but Jennings was carving Collison up. Just drove right past him every time. Darren's defense needs to improve drastically. People ***** about Dunleavy's D (rightfully so), but Darren's is bad too. He did do better in the second half though, and I was happy to see him in the game during crunch time.

Granger had so many bonehead turnovers tonight, really made me want to scream. Roy had quite a few as well.

Roy apologized on Twitter for letting so many people by him in the post, but most of that was Dunleavy/Collison's fault. Roy isn't Dwight Howard. He can't cover that much ground. We really need our guards to keep guys in front of them.

Dunleavy should not be playing 38 minutes per game. I suspect those shenanigans end when Rush gets back. He needs to play about 25 mpg. I know, pacer4ever and vnzla, you think he should get none.

Paul George was aggressive for a stretch there, and his defense looked really good tonight. I really like his potential. That lefty scoop move was gorgeous, even from the balcony.

I kind of wanted us to foul there at the end, 2 seconds isn't much time and we should have fouled them when their weakest shooter got the ball, or at least gone hard after a steal, and if we fouled them, so be it.

We need to work on our pick and rolls. That is what Collison is good at, add more of them into the offense. They made a few half-hearted attempts, but not nearly enough.

Again, Area 55 was awful. Squad 6 drowned out any noise that Area 55 made, if they even made any. Come on guys. You're better than that.

pwee31
11-05-2010, 11:02 PM
I'm kinda sad to bring up the fact that Bogut didn't even play tonight!!

beast23
11-05-2010, 11:06 PM
im 17 and im smart enoght to know who should bee in thier to close that game. I am sick of dunleavy to bad JOB loves him . I would dress lance over dunleavy defense simalar lance D> mikes D.I suppose there are some things I should overlook because you are only 17. I understand that folks have there favorite players and they also have their players that they have developed such a prejudice against that their thoughts toward these players just simply are not rational.

There is nothing, and I mean absolutely effing nothing, of Lance that we have seen that could lead us to believe that he is not among the worst handful of defenders at his position in the entire league.

Lance is here for one reason and one reason only... Potential. Everything he has done so far in his basketball career has been with the ball in his hands. I'm guessing that he will struggle learning offensive motion and spacing. And it is a known fact that he came to us with very few defensive abilities. Yet for some reason, you believe his defensive abilities are better than Dunleavy's.

As a singular factor, Mike had very little to do with the loss this evening. I believe the Pacers lost due to a few obvious factors:

1. Abandonment of the offensive game plan - No motion whatsoever in the second half. General lack of focus on offense - laziness in settling for perimeter shots.
2. Failure to create any low post scoring opportunities for Hibbert in the second half.
3. Too many turnovers.

Overall, I would not blame this loss on defense. This game was lost due to a total breakdown on offense in the second half. JOB was trying a lot of different combinations. I do agree with those that going back to McRoberts and/or Hansbough despite their foul problems may have helped... especially Hansbrough when considering that we were having problems getting the ball into the post in the second half.

pacer4ever
11-05-2010, 11:15 PM
Highly doubtful that there would be no time left in the clock. Shooting a three is even a lower percentage shot when all you need is a two.


I don't think this is statistically right, but I'll check the numbers later tonight.



however moronic it may be, the other team with a coach that many people on this board feels is top 5 did not try that tactic.

it isnt about high % it is about burning the 2 secs which is what the 3 would do or any high arching shot for that matter

Freddie fan
11-05-2010, 11:18 PM
ok, come on now, Paul George looks good and hits shots and all of that- but when both players are shooting the same percentage Dunleavy is much better- he's better in the defensive system,.

If the Pacers' defensive system is to allow your man to fly by you to the hole, resulting in quick fouls piling up on the big men who have to help out, Dunleavy has mastered that system.

And if their system is also to leave your man open for three pointers because you make a slow and sometimes half-hearted move to get out on them, Dunleavy has mastered that system.

In other respects, George is a much better defender than Dunleavy at this point in their careers because his higher level of effort and energy on defense, plus his vastly greater athleticism, more than compensate for his lack of experience.

Sookie
11-05-2010, 11:23 PM
I completely disagree. This does not fit with either Bird's or O'Brien's mentality and is not supported by any evidence. I don't believe Bird would tell a coach who should get minutes and I don't believe O'Brien would give someone minutes just to showcase him for a trade.

Correct. TJ's playing because he's a vet.

Funny thing is, AJ plays more like a vet than TJ does.

We will win more games this season, if we have Collison and AJ at the point, with JOB going with whichever player is playing better at the end of the game (and during) Than with TJ.

The same is true for Posey/Hans. We will win more games if we play Hans as the first big (and hopefully throughout the game, Only big) off the bench.

Josh needs to watch the fouls. He's too important to keep picking up stupid ones. We struggle offensively without him (who would have guessed) Particularly Roy does. And he needs to be able to play to keep Solo off the court.

honestly, My ideal rotation would be
Collison/Price - split the minutes however each one is playing
Rush/George - 30/18
Danny/Dun - 30/18
Tyer/Josh - (with Josh starting, I just can't put it that way because of the censor) split evenly
Hibbert/Josh - As many minutes as Hibbert can handle, and give Josh the rest.

But in order for that to happen..first JOB needs to sit TJ and play AJ..and start Rush..but Josh also needs to stay out of foul trouble..because I think JOB would actually prefer to play him in the C position.

pacer4ever
11-05-2010, 11:25 PM
ok, come on now, Paul George looks good and hits shots and all of that- but when both players are shooting the same percentage Dunleavy is much better- he's better in the defensive system,.

WOW THIS IS THE MOST INSANE THING I EVER HEARD




:picard:

pacer4ever
11-05-2010, 11:33 PM
the only thing wrong with Paul's defense is he stares at the ball too much. Which is a very easy fix if someone on the coaching staff tells him and worked with him that would be gone almost overnight.

Hicks
11-05-2010, 11:39 PM
I had to DVR the game because of work. Finished a while ago, and I'm disappointed. Until MIL finally took the lead, this felt like a game where I thought they'd win.

Would have liked more Paul George, Tyler instead of Posey, and my God Danny (first and second) and Roy (a distant third) killed us with their mistakes. Danny was off-the-charts tonight, obviously in a very bad way.

I was terrified when I saw two out of the three refs were Dick Bavetta and Violet Palmer. My God they're terrible.

Our defense looked a lot better tonight, though obviously not perfect.

We fell back in love with chucking up bull**** shots, and that drives me crazy.

TJ Ford annoys the crap out of me.

Add me to the group that says "Yes, Mike knows where to be defensively, but no that doesn't often result in a good defensive play."

IndyMac
11-05-2010, 11:43 PM
the only thing wrong with Paul's defense is he stares at the ball too much. Which is a very easy fix if someone on the coaching staff tells him and worked with him that would be gone almost overnight.

Based on observation, that's probably expecting too much.

Also could you please not call someone insane just because the have a different opinion about a player than you. It doesn't contribute anything to the discussion.


WOW THIS IS THE MOST INSANE THING I EVER HEARD

PacersPride
11-05-2010, 11:47 PM
Young guys are going to be inconsistent. Hans and McRoberts have never played a full season in the NBA.

Honestly, I think AJ Price is tucked away for the same reason the Pacers tucked away McRoberts last year. Dun, TJ and Posey (and their fat contracts) are being show-cased just like Murphy...and the real grand opening for the Pacers is next year. I truly believe that money is at the root of some of the "mysterious" decisions. There's a reason Collison, George, Granger, Hans and Hibbert are in that five-some picture. Don't be stupid. The Pacers know who the future is going to be...but they have some fat contracts to offload in the meantime.

BTW, the rest of the league is not naive. This show-casing is like shoveling a pile of poop into the display case. No one will be buying.

EXACTLY! no one is buying so why not just sit ford and dun and lets get the rook and other young players some experience. ford is gone after this season and no one is dumb enough to take him off our roster.. the only good thing that can come from all this is one more high draft pick.. and hopefully a new coach along with all the cap space in the offseason.

hopefully we still have a team next year.. the attendance was pretty bad tonight.

pacer4ever
11-05-2010, 11:49 PM
EXACTLY! no one is buying so why not just sit ford and dun and lets get the rook and other young players some experience. ford is gone after this season and no one is dumb enough to take him off our roster.. the only good thing that can come from all this is one more high draft pick.. and hopefully a new coach along with all the cap space in the offseason.

hopefully we still have a team next year.. the attendance was pretty bad tonight.

WAY MORE THAN LAST YR LOL which is sad

Scot Pollard
11-05-2010, 11:49 PM
the pacers are pure LAZY

they can play really well when they want to and dont care about the extra effort

i think it has a lot to do with their mellow head coach that doesnt tell his players to play hard at all times or doesnt teach them to play well all the time

i was at this game again and if they keep this up im not going to anymore games until they prove to indiana that they are worthy of big crowds

pacer4ever
11-05-2010, 11:52 PM
Based on observation, that's probably expecting too much.

Also could you please not call someone insane just because the have a different opinion about a player than you. It doesn't contribute anything to the discussion.

ya that is too much to ask our assit coaches are the worst in the league.


i wasnt calling him insane just the post but i get wat u mean.

PacersPride
11-05-2010, 11:55 PM
honestly, My ideal rotation would be
Collison/Price - split the minutes however each one is playing
Rush/George - 30/18
Danny/Dun - 30/18
Tyer/Josh - (with Josh starting, I just can't put it that way because of the censor) split evenly
Hibbert/Josh - As many minutes as Hibbert can handle, and give Josh the rest.


Bird, if you are looking for a replacement for O'brien... please consider the above poster!!!

Scot Pollard
11-06-2010, 12:01 AM
i want granger to score over 30 points tuesday night and beat carmelo anthony's upset ***

granger is better than this. hes playing so careless

i want to beat denver they arent good anymore and have a lot of negative energy going on and we cant back off from them thinking "oh there good it wont be worth playing our asses off and trying to beat them"

i want wins

i want playoffs

jim obrien is the most selfish coach ever he has 3 point love and loves using 6-8 wing players as pfs and likes his players to race down the court as if hes coaching a track team

jim obrien makes me so mad and im telling you guys im renting out a suite and telling the people at the fieldhouse its a party because jim obrien was finally fired i think theyll get a chuckle out of it

ladies and gentleman the interim head coach of the indiana pacers
:danburke:

i really like coach burke. hes been there for years and knows the city and what the teams been through and not only that hes a defensive specialist. i see him working big guys on defensive post plays and im sure after spending 4 years on obriens staff he probably has a good understanding of offense too

he might even make a good permanent head coach

pacer4ever
11-06-2010, 12:04 AM
i want granger to score over 30 points tuesday night and beat carmelo anthony's upset ***

granger is better than this. hes playing so careless

i want to beat denver they arent good anymore and have a lot of negative energy going on and we cant back off from them thinking "oh there good it wont be worth playing our asses off and trying to beat them"

i want wins

i want playoffs

jim obrien is the most selfish coach ever he has 3 point love and loves using 6-8 wing players as pfs and likes his players to race down the court as if hes coaching a track team

jim obrien makes me so mad and im telling you guys im renting out a suite and telling the people at the fieldhouse its a party because jim obrien was finally fired i think theyll get a chuckle out of it

ladies and gentleman the interim head coach of the indiana pacers
:danburke:

fiction

PacersPride
11-06-2010, 12:04 AM
the pacers are pure LAZY

they can play really well when they want to and dont care about the extra effort

i think it has a lot to do with their mellow head coach that doesnt tell his players to play hard at all times or doesnt teach them to play well all the time

i was at this game again and if they keep this up im not going to anymore games until they prove to indiana that they are worthy of big crowds

true Swift.. i was kinda referring to this in another thread.. the team just lacks discipline which i think has much to do with these boneheaded passes and carefree style of play, maybe O'brien doesnt deserve that blame but i think its all a direct consequece of his style of play.

Cheese n Rice.. how can professional players be this awful at hitting a wide open outlet man on a fast break!?!?!?! i play in rec leagues and make sweet passes all the time off a rebound.. point is its not that difficult to lead a player to a layup on a wide open fast break opportunity.. too many careless passes the other night vs. philly and saw one or two tonight.

simply incomprehensible this team cannot convert a wide open fast break opportunity. kills momentum and doesnt bode well for the teams long term success.

ugghh.. im done ripping O'brien..

Scot Pollard
11-06-2010, 12:10 AM
fiction

its carmelo anthony the leader of that team is unhappy there hes going to make other players feel crappy and there will be a negative environment there

he wont seem determined on trying to make that team a contender again

although they do have the same players, i can see what your saying that there still a really good team and they are a pretty good team that will probably make the playoffs anyway if carmelo anthony stays

im just saying we cant back off that team

we need to stop playing like wimps and start playing really tough. im impressed with the block shots though but we must shoot the ball with care because denver is a balanced team

pacer4ever
11-06-2010, 12:11 AM
its carmelo anthony the leader of that team is unhappy there hes going to make other players feel crappy and there will be a negative environment there

he wont seem determined on trying to make that team a contender again

although they do have the same players, i can see what your saying that there still a really good team and they are a pretty good team that will probably make the playoffs anyway if carmelo anthony stays

im just saying we cant back off that team

we need to stop playing like wimps and start playing really tough. im impressed with the block shots though but we must shoot the ball with care because denver is a balanced team

they are a really good basketball team that is all i am saying. I was only refering to the bold part.

and melo isnt the leader Billups is. Billups would be the leader for the Heat he is a born leader

Scot Pollard
11-06-2010, 12:14 AM
they are a really good basketball team that is all i am saying. I was only refering to the bold part.

yes you have that right

we must be prepared to face them especially granger our star who is a sf against there star anthony who is also a sf

granger must be ready to defend the lights out and be prepared to drive and get fouled plus shoot well like he always does

he also cant dribble like crap because anthony is going to steal it

pacer4ever
11-06-2010, 12:19 AM
yes you have that right

we must be prepared to face them especially granger our star who is a sf against there star anthony who is also a sf

granger must be ready to defend the lights out and be prepared to drive and get fouled plus shoot well like he always does

he also cant dribble like crap because anthony is going to steal it

we need B Rush to start to guard melo also JR smith and affalo are looking good. JR smith is a tuff mathup because of his offense.

Scot Pollard
11-06-2010, 12:22 AM
we need B Rush to start to guard melo also JR smith and affalo are looking good. JR smith is a tuff mathup because of his offense.

i cant wait to see him back in action

rush is one of our hidden talents mainly on defense

obrien better not be a jerk and not play him or george a lot and give freakin dunleavy and posey the time

pacer4ever
11-06-2010, 12:28 AM
i cant wait to see him back in action

rush is one of our hidden talents mainly on defense

obrien better not be a jerk and not play him or george a lot and give freakin dunleavy and posey the time

he said B rush is out of the rotation said he would be the 4th wing. We only play 3 wings. I say Bench mike and start rush and have PG24 backup at the 3 and 4.

Scot Pollard
11-06-2010, 12:32 AM
he said B rush is out of the rotation said he would be the 4th wing. We only play 3 wings. I say Bench mike and start rush and have PG24 backup at the 3 and 4.

i hate him :mad:

i agree with what your saying i mean what in the world has mike done to deserve that starting spot

rush should be starting at sg but its a tough call if george should be rushs immediate backup i mean that will make that one young position but i mean the pf position is very young and manages pretty well between mcroberts and hansbrough who both can be ok defenders and score well in the post

id rather play james posey than mike dunleavy at least posey can defend better than dunleavy and makes his shots without settling

PacersPride
11-06-2010, 12:33 AM
he said B rush is out of the rotation said he would be the 4th wing. We only play 3 wings. I say Bench mike and start rush and have PG24 backup at the 3 and 4.

its kinda become obvious that Dun is not apart of the future for this franchise.. at least not a significant one. we need to know what rush is capable of now.. not next season.. hopefully O'brien is keen enough to know this, but we are talking about O'brien.

Dun is not a sg, and would not mind him backing up Granger one bit. George is not ready to start and we again need to know what rush is capable of in order to determine what is best going forward. so rush will get his minutes.. regardless of what jimmy has to say on the subject.

Scot Pollard
11-06-2010, 12:37 AM
its kinda become obvious that Dun is not apart of the future for this franchise.. at least not a significant one. we need to know what rush is capable of now.. not next season.. hopefully O'brien is keen enough to know this, but we are talking about O'brien.

Dun is not a sg, and would not mind him backing up Granger one bit. George is not ready to start and we again need to know what rush is capable of in order to determine what is best going forward. so rush will get his minutes.. regardless of what jimmy has to say on the subject.

perhaps obrien does this because he knows he wont be part of our future

the future is dan burke :p

ok maybe not but the rest of the season might be in his hands

PacersPride
11-06-2010, 12:37 AM
i hate him :mad:

i agree with what your saying i mean what in the world has mike done to deserve that starting spot

rush should be starting at sg but its a tough call if george should be rushs immediate backup i mean that will make that one young position but i mean the pf position is very young and manages pretty well between mcroberts and hansbrough who both can be ok defenders and score well in the post

id rather play james posey than mike dunleavy at least posey can defend better than dunleavy and makes his shots without settling

i would like to see how dun performs off the bench at his natural position which is SF.. this would likely improve his D and help the second unit greatly. posey doesnt belong on the floor unless Dun, Hansbro, McBob, have all fouled out and Foster is inactive..

im critical of Dun at the starting SG spot.. not the b/u SF role.

pacer4ever
11-06-2010, 12:37 AM
its kinda become obvious that Dun is not apart of the future for this franchise.. at least not a significant one. we need to know what rush is capable of now.. not next season.. hopefully O'brien is keen enough to know this, but we are talking about O'brien.

Dun is not a sg, and would not mind him backing up Granger one bit. George is not ready to start and we again need to know what rush is capable of in order to determine what is best going forward. so rush will get his minutes.. regardless of what jimmy has to say on the subject.

couldn't agree more with u except i want PG24 as the backup SG and SF



mike and TJ are not coming back. i dont get why we are playing them. AJ needs mintues i think he could be a top 5 backup PG.

Scot Pollard
11-06-2010, 12:40 AM
i would like to see how dun performs off the bench at his natural position which is SF.. this would likely improve his D and help the second unit greatly. posey doesnt belong on the floor unless Dun, Hansbro, McBob, have all fouled out and Foster is inactive..

im critical of Dun at the starting SG spot.. not the b/u SF role.

danny gets most of the minutes at sf anyway so it wouldnt really matter

dun might even be more comfortable playing as dannys backup and not having a huge role anymore

i like having posey around so he can help out the younger wing players especially paul george

pacer4ever
11-06-2010, 12:43 AM
i would like to see how dun performs off the bench at his natural position which is SF.. this would likely improve his D and help the second unit greatly. posey doesnt belong on the floor unless Dun, Hansbro, McBob, have all fouled out and Foster is inactive..

im critical of Dun at the starting SG spot.. not the b/u SF role.

i wanted him at the 3 to he would look a little better cause he is a natural 3. but i want us to put the future in there now. Mike wont be back dress Lance and play Djones he will be back next yr unless we trade him. Not much of a drop off from Mike to Djones i actually perfer jones.

PacersPride
11-06-2010, 12:44 AM
couldn't agree more with u except i want PG24 as the backup SG and SF



mike and TJ are not coming back. i dont get why we are playing them. AJ needs mintues i think he could be a top 5 backup PG.

i dont disagree, but i would have to wait and see what we get from rush before saying we play him over 24-28 a game.. those remaining minutes can go to PG24 and maybe even a few to D Jones.. i like pg24's potential but he is still a rook.. and im kinda old fashioned in not overplaying rooks unless its bron/durant...

pg24 should get at least 15-18 a game.. and as the season goes on it should increase.

there are plenty of minutes for pg24 to backup rush.. and i wouldnt mind seeing how Dun performs b/u granger. if dun could be resigned for a reasonable contract i would be all for it. i like duns' game.. just not at sg as a starter.

PacersPride
11-06-2010, 12:47 AM
danny gets most of the minutes at sf anyway so it wouldnt really matter

dun might even be more comfortable playing as dannys backup and not having a huge role anymore

i like having posey around so he can help out the younger wing players especially paul george

yes he does.. but 32 a game is plenty if we want to keep him healthy during an 82 game season; playoffs is a different beast altogether but playoffs.. playoffs..

i think dun would do real well w/ the 2nd unit. would prefer George/ Dun combo as the 2nd unit than posey.. i just dont see any value in poseys game.. at least over dun assuming he is healthy that is.

pacer4ever
11-06-2010, 12:51 AM
i dont disagree, but i would have to wait and see what we get from rush before saying we play him over 24-28 a game.. those remaining minutes can go to PG24 and maybe even a few to D Jones.. i like pg24's potential but he is still a rook.. and im kinda old fashioned in not overplaying rooks unless its bron/durant...

pg24 should get at least 15-18 a game.. and as the season goes on it should increase.

there are plenty of minutes for pg24 to backup rush.. and i wouldnt mind seeing how Dun performs b/u granger. if dun could be resigned for a reasonable contract i would be all for it. i like duns' game.. just not at sg as a starter.

PG24 is gonna ave a lot of mins and pts in the 2nd half of the year. I told him tonight after the game when u attack the rim u are almost unguardable. he replied "im starting to understand that " once he starts driving he will be almost impossible to guard specially when his jumper is on which hasnt happened yet. (that is his strong suit)

pacer4ever
11-06-2010, 12:52 AM
yes he does.. but 32 a game is plenty if we want to keep him healthy during an 82 game season; playoffs is a different beast altogether but playoffs.. playoffs..

i think dun would do real well w/ the 2nd unit. would prefer George/ Dun combo as the 2nd unit than posey.. i just dont see any value in poseys game.. at least over dun assuming he is healthy that is.

we have been playiing posey at the 4 LOL not the 3 we need tyler not posey. Posey stands around the 3pt line like he is playing in chrurch league.

PacersPride
11-06-2010, 12:56 AM
Posey stands around the 3pt line like he is playing in chrurch league.

lol.. i have no idea what your talking about..:laugh:

pacer4ever
11-06-2010, 01:06 AM
lol.. i have no idea what your talking about..:laugh:

have u seen a church league??? all people do is stand at the 3pt line and shoot 3s and no defense is played normaly slow unatletic guys. pickup games normly

DavisBoyz3233
11-06-2010, 07:40 AM
How is it that a tiny little section of Bucks fans were louder than the rest of Conseco last night??? We tried to do our part in being loud but everybody around is looked as us like it wasn't aloud in the club section.

Unclebuck
11-06-2010, 08:12 AM
Posey 28 minutes. Hans 10 minutes. That's what lost us this game.



so you don't think the extremely high number of turnovers by our two best players had anything to do with it.


I can't understand the criticism of James Posey in this game. I thought he was probably our best player tonight

From midway through the third quarter on I was not expecting a win. The Bucks defense was controlling our offense, and Jennings could create a good shot anytime he wanted. Pacers defense in the fourth quarter was good

McKeyFan
11-06-2010, 09:29 AM
so you don't think the extremely high number of turnovers by our two best players had anything to do with it.


I can't understand the criticism of James Posey in this game. I thought he was probably our best player tonight



I'll stick with my statement.

Tyler brings a dimension to the offense we desperately need: a third threat.

Not only is he a threat, but if given the ball 15 feet and in, he can create his own shot, draw fouls, make things happen. His presence has to be respected, so defenders can't lag off him and cheat on Roy and Danny like they can with a guy standing on the perimeter.

Tyler also showed that he makes things happen in crunch time. (Not like he proved it already and will be in the basketball hall of fame for such efforts.) Posey has some of that too, but he is a liability with his athleticism and his only threat—three point shot—is redundant when Granger, Dunleavy, and Collison are on the floor.

idioteque
11-06-2010, 09:35 AM
How is it that a tiny little section of Bucks fans were louder than the rest of Conseco last night??? We tried to do our part in being loud but everybody around is looked as us like it wasn't aloud in the club section.

I may not be living in Indiana right now but I am a Hoosier by blood but let me say this.

Indiana fans just aren't crazy like the fans of some other teams. For some reason, we just lack a lot of really fanatic people. Area 55 may still sort of change that at least when it comes to the Pacers but like any new organization it is going to take them time to really get it together. Remember, the Colts were still having trouble selling out as late as 2003 when Peyton was in the start of his prime and they had already made the playoffs.

idioteque
11-06-2010, 09:37 AM
We fell back in love with chucking up bull**** shots, and that drives me crazy.
"

You and me both. I watched only the last 6 or so minutes of the game but I can only remember really one possession where we got the best shot we probably could have gotten. Hell, I could live with JOB's crazy rotations at least somewhat if I was confident we were running a real offense giving us a realistic chance to score on every possession.

Mackey_Rose
11-06-2010, 10:09 AM
so you don't think the extremely high number of turnovers by our two best players had anything to do with it.


I can't understand the criticism of James Posey in this game. I thought he was probably our best player tonight

From midway through the third quarter on I was not expecting a win. The Bucks defense was controlling our offense, and Jennings could create a good shot anytime he wanted. Pacers defense in the fourth quarter was good

I would say the loss was about 60% poor play and 40% poor coaching. It certainly wasn't 100% either way.

Just because there was bad play, that doesn't mean we should totally excuse the coaching. Too often poor coaching is excused because either "the players just aren't good enough," or "the players did not play well." Well sometimes that is a part of it, but to say the coaching did not play a contributing factor, would be flat out wrong.

#22
11-06-2010, 10:11 AM
Hey guys, new user here...long time pacers fan.

Here's some notes I have on the season so far.

-Dunleavy is not gonna help us win games. He might be a vet, but he is no longer a scorer, is pretty bad at D, and has no athletisism (something we NEED). I'll admit hes a good rebounder though

-Granger is so overrated. He does great when he plays within the offense, but often I see him try to take over the game on his own...and he isnt that type of a player. He plays great D when he wants to, which is almost never. 3 plays that stick out last night...1. 4th quarter he drove in down the baseline and the entire D collapsed on him leaving about 3 players wide open for three pointer. He does a few stutter steps and throws up a terrible shot. 2. about 30 secs left and down two and he takes a rushed long jumper...brick. 3. throws a bad pass at the top of the key athen walks back down court...letting the bucks get a fast break layup...HE DIDNT EVEN TRY TO STOP THEM

-DC is great, but this team is wayyyy to unathletic to let him play to his ability. Mainly granger and dunleavy are too unatheltic and never slash, but just sit at the 3 pt line.

-Why isnt Hansborough starting? Why isnt George playing more? Posey getting 30 mins is rediculous. McRoberts cant stay outta fould trouble. Start Hansborough he is a beast...then bring in McRob for a spark every now and again ! George plays great when hes in and makes plays on both ends of the court and adds the athletisism that DC needs in order to reach his full potential

-JOB. Worst Pacers coach in decades. The offense stands around hoping for an open three. No cutting, no moving, etc

Trophy
11-06-2010, 10:18 AM
Hopefully Brandon's defense will be a big improvement for us and it'll stop too much scoring.

He needs to be starting. Playing with Darren will also improve his offense I think.

Danny needs to stop and realize, "why am I playing like this, this isn't how I usually play." Danny usually plays well every where. The issue was the careless turnovers and he was not focused at all.

imawhat
11-06-2010, 10:28 AM
That, and his defense thru the first three quarters is the worst I've ever seen him play. Salmons went around him with ease while Posey guarded Salmons just fine.

BringJackBack
11-06-2010, 10:33 AM
That, and his defense thru the first three quarters is the worst I've ever seen him play. Salmons went around him with ease while Posey guarded Salmons just fine.

Mike or Danny?

xtacy
11-06-2010, 11:05 AM
i hate job and i definately don't want to see posey on the court. but i don't think they are the main reasons for this loss(although i'm pissed at job for dunleavy choice)

we lost because of 1) stupid turnovers 2) stupid shot selection 3) did i mention stupid turnovers

speaking of granger i think he's lacking concentration. the mistakes he makes get me thinking his mind is somewhere else.

DavisBoyz3233
11-06-2010, 11:07 AM
I may not be living in Indiana right now but I am a Hoosier by blood but let me say this.

Indiana fans just aren't crazy like the fans of some other teams. For some reason, we just lack a lot of really fanatic people. Area 55 may still sort of change that at least when it comes to the Pacers but like any new organization it is going to take them time to really get it together. Remember, the Colts were still having trouble selling out as late as 2003 when Peyton was in the start of his prime and they had already made the playoffs.

Every team I like I go hard for cheering, like losing my voice type hard it's kinda sad to see that in the early to mid '00's everybody else was cheering just as hard even when the last time we made the playoffs vs. the nets it wasn't even the same nobody was into at all. it's why i enjoy college games and vikings games better because of all the hoopin and hollerin.

CableKC
11-06-2010, 01:03 PM
I hope you don't expect him to play!

Then again, JOB did say he wouldn't play much and we know how that often goes... ;)

I really have no clue what the coach will do with Rush. Anything from DNP-CD to 30 minutes would not surprise me.
Sorry...just catching up now...so I'm only on page 2 of the JO'B complaint thread.

When BRush is back....I'd expect PG to take a hit in the minutes. BRush is a player with comprable offensive skills ( I'm talking about now...not potential in the future ) but also understands the defense ( BRush ) over someone whose still learning the defense while making mistakes ( PG ).

Yes, I'd rather go with BRush+PG while reducing Dunleavy's minutes....but my guess is that JO'B will go with BRush and Dunleavy getting the bulk of the SG/SF with PG playing the garbage minutes. However, it should be noted that based off of the way that we played lately.....PG should have plenty of chance to play garbage minutes.

CableKC
11-06-2010, 01:39 PM
I recall hearing whoever was doing the commentary of the game that he said that there was one play where Illyasova ( who I think was playing PF ) was going to take a shot but he got spooked when someone as big and strong as Hansbrough came charging at him.

I saw enough of the last couple of minutes in the game to see someone on the Team take a jumpshot, clank the shot with ONLY 1 "White shirt" inside the paint ( Hibbert ) to know that I think that it would have been more prudent to give more minutes to an actual PF in the rotation.

The only thing that I can complement the Team on was the defense in the last couple of minutes. It was really good and kept us in the game until the wheels fell off on the offensive end.

Hicks
11-06-2010, 03:42 PM
By the way, why didn't we use Hansbrough (a lot) more on offense? He looked more like North Carolina Tyler against their bigs. They didn't seem to know what to do with him, and he clearly looked capable of overpowering them when he attacked them.

McKeyFan
11-06-2010, 03:49 PM
Because Posey stretches the offense.

But you already knew that.

ksuttonjr76
11-06-2010, 04:05 PM
i hate job and i definately don't want to see posey on the court. but i don't think they are the main reasons for this loss(although i'm pissed at job for dunleavy choice)

we lost because of 1) stupid turnovers 2) stupid shot selection 3) did i mention stupid turnovers

speaking of granger i think he's lacking concentration. the mistakes he makes get me thinking his mind is somewhere else.

IMHO, this is main reason that Indiana lost. Again, I felt that JOB coached a good game. Here's the lesson learned. One game we lost, because we shot terriblely, but had low turnovers. Last night's game we lost, because we shot good but turned the ball over A LOT. I have no real complainments about the defense in either game. In reality, Indiana's defense has been pretty solid, but the other team is making some real tough shots. In the end, we can control the turnovers and shoot consistent, then we'll be in the playoff easily. This was my Captain Duh moment.

Sookie
11-06-2010, 04:30 PM
Can I point out

1. Turnovers has been a huge problem with this team. Although it wasn't an issue with the PGs last night, there usually is an issue there. Why is JOB playing the two most turnover prone PGs? Three turnovers is what Collison averages, and it's not all that out of the ordinary for TJ. It'd be excessive for Price.

2. Shot selection has been an issue for a while now. That's on the coach at this point.

DGPR
11-06-2010, 05:27 PM
The coaching style does not fit with the players we have available. When Danny has a ****ty game and nobody else steps up we lose. WE NEED MORE PAUL GEORGE!!

graphic-er
11-07-2010, 10:42 PM
Its a testament to the Coach when you playing a team without their dominant Center in Bogut, and you have your center playing out at the elbow. That ball should have been down in the post every possession. Drew Gooden had no business guarding Hibbert, and JOB did not exploit that.

IndySDExport
11-07-2010, 11:38 PM
I've read a lot of nonsense on this thread about Posey and minutes etc. The reason the pacers lost this game are 13 careless turnovers by Granger and Hibbert. Hell Granger dribbled the ball off his foot 4 times during this game.
Roy even admitted as much on his twitter. Our stars need to step up, Danny especially.

This game had nothing to do with Posey or his minutes.

CableKC
11-08-2010, 02:40 AM
By the way, why didn't we use Hansbrough (a lot) more on offense? He looked more like North Carolina Tyler against their bigs. They didn't seem to know what to do with him, and he clearly looked capable of overpowering them when he attacked them.
I don't recall if I posted this....but during the game in the 4th QTR when Illyasova got the ball on the perimeter, Hansbrough RUSHED OUT to defend him and Illyasova ended up taking a bad shot. At that point, whoever was the Commentator on TV ( sorry, I don't know the name of the announcers calling the Pacer gams ) said that Illyasova didn't look comfortable with a bigger and stronger Player like Hansbrough defending him along the perimeter.

I can appreciate having 3 pt shooters along the perimeter with a great passing Big Man like Hibbert manning the paint....but unless Hibbert is absolutely dominating the paint ( a la Dwight Howard ) and can pull down every rebound that comes his way ( which he isn't there yet ).....I don't see the reason to have 4 3pt shooters hanging out in the perimeter waiting for the ball. What's worse is the entire team is shooting 33% from the 3pt line. It wouldn't hurt to have an actual PF that can help Hibbert inside the paint. As mentioned before, all I recall seeing at the end of the game was Hibbert being the only player inside the paint.

Sookie
11-08-2010, 02:52 AM
I don't recall if I posted this....but during the game in the 4th QTR when Illyasova got the ball on the perimeter, Hansbrough RUSHED OUT to defend him and Illyasova ended up taking a bad shot. At that point, whoever was the Commentator on TV ( sorry, I don't know the name of the announcers calling the Pacer gams ) said that Illyasova didn't look comfortable with a bigger and stronger Player like Hansbrough defending him along the perimeter.

I can appreciate having 3 pt shooters along the perimeter with a great passing Big Man like Hibbert manning the paint....but unless Hibbert is absolutely dominating the paint ( a la Dwight Howard ) and can pull down every rebound that comes his way ( which he isn't there yet ).....I don't see the reason to have 4 3pt shooters hanging out in the perimeter waiting for the ball. What's worse is the entire team is shooting 33% from the 3pt line. It wouldn't hurt to have an actual PF that can help Hibbert inside the paint. As mentioned before, all I recall seeing at the end of the game was Hibbert being the only player inside the paint.

Well really, TJ and Dun aren't (or can't) shoot threes..so we only had 2...

That was always the weirdest thing about JOB to me...his post players need to be shooters, but he doesn't care if his guards are..

owl
11-08-2010, 09:21 AM
Because Posey stretches the offense.

But you already knew that.

I think the offense has been stretched too far and has broken.


I find it interesting that when other teams put on the defensive pressure the Pacers offense
grinds to a halt and it ends up being poor perimeter shots that are defended well and
no interior offense. I have seen enough of that. Please cram the offense to the interior
repeatedly thru Hibbert or Tyler or even Josh. The Pacers need another good big who can
score. I don't know where that is going to come from.

pacer4ever
11-08-2010, 09:31 AM
I think the offense has been stretched too far and has broken.


I find it interesting that when other teams put on the defensive pressure the Pacers offense
grinds to a halt and it ends up being poor perimeter shots that are defended well and
no interior offense. I have seen enough of that. Please cram the offense to the interior
repeatedly thru Hibbert or Tyler or even Josh. The Pacers need another good big who can
score. I don't know where that is going to come from.

ya what wins in the NBA is not strecting the floor. You need big guys to win in this league.

McKeyFan
11-08-2010, 10:17 AM
The Pacers need another good big who can
score.
Or they need to play the one they have more than 10 minutes.

Unclebuck
11-08-2010, 10:32 AM
I think the offense has been stretched too far and has broken.


I find it interesting that when other teams put on the defensive pressure the Pacers offense
grinds to a halt and it ends up being poor perimeter shots that are defended well and
no interior offense. I have seen enough of that. Please cram the offense to the interior
repeatedly thru Hibbert or Tyler or even Josh. The Pacers need another good big who can
score. I don't know where that is going to come from.

That has been their problem for several years now. When teams get up and pressure us, as the Bucks did, the pacers offense grinds to a halt.

I think the Pacers tried to cram the ball into Roy, but the Bucks were fronting the post and double team front and back when we lobbed it into him

OakMoses
11-08-2010, 11:34 AM
That has been their problem for several years now. When teams get up and pressure us, as the Bucks did, the pacers offense grinds to a halt.

I think the Pacers tried to cram the ball into Roy, but the Bucks were fronting the post and double team front and back when we lobbed it into him

This is largely because we don't have guys who can create their own shot and our off ball movement is terrible. We try to run PnR, but our bigs are terrible at it.

One thing that continually goes unmentioned on this board is that O'Brien emphasizes early transition offense so much because he knows that we have very subpar offensive talent.

Brad8888
11-08-2010, 11:42 AM
That has been their problem for several years now. When teams get up and pressure us, as the Bucks did, the pacers offense grinds to a halt.

I think the Pacers tried to cram the ball into Roy, but the Bucks were fronting the post and double team front and back when we lobbed it into him

Great point.

So, a passing game involving the perimeter players being in motion should be able to draw at least some of the currently sagging fronting pressure away from Roy, after which he would be more available to receive passes without as much pressure as the Bucks threw at him.

The fact that our offense is based on personal shot creation instead of passing, as it has always been, leaves Roy vulnerable, especially in the high post, and if our guys are being told to look for Roy first instead of looking for Roy once a passing based motion offense has caused Roy to have openings, it makes us relatively easy to defend due to the stagnation that we have seen for two games now, and are likely to until something is done to change that.

Here is what O'Brien is apparently focusing on.

http://my.nba.com/cms/Indiana%20Pacers%20Blogs/Caught%20In%20The%20Web


Caught In The Web
Pacers searching for solutions to offensive woes
Bruno
November 7, 2010 2:15 PM
By Bruno November 7, 2010 2:15 PM Print Save

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Too many turnovers. Too little ball movement. A preponderance of missed layups. Open jumpers gone astray.

You name the problem, the Pacers are confronted with it as their normally prolific offense has sputtered.

In losing their last two games, the Pacers (2-3) averaged 82.5 points, shot 34.8 percent overall and 28.3 percent from the 3-point line. They committed more turnovers (32) than assists (30).

With his team heading into a matchup with Denver Tuesday in Conseco Fieldhouse, Coach Jim O'Brien is pondering solutions to a problem that is surprisingly comprehensive.

"We're not creating the tempo I would like to see and it's hurting us for a couple of reasons," he said. "Our whole philosophy has been to be a running team and I don't think we've committed to that yet. We're starting a point guard (Darren Collison) that has never run in college and the pros like I would like to.

"And then we're not getting the ball reversed. If we don't reverse the basketball you don't get it into Roy (Hibbert)'s hands in the secondary offense. I can get the ball into Roy's hands by calling plays but that means we're going to walk the ball up the court. I don't think this team can reach its potential by walking the ball up the court.

"So if we're going to run, the ball needs to move from one side of the court to the other if you can't attack the basket. And when it does we get the basketball to (Hibbert) in the low post or the high post and he's got our best assist-to-turnover ratio, he's a factor inside and outside. If we start to get that type of flow offensively we'll be fine."
O'Brien offered that analysis before the Pacers totaled 30 points on 29.4 percent shooting in the second half of a 94-90 loss to the Bucks Saturday. Hibbert, Collison and Danny Granger, the three players that handle the ball the most, combined for more turnovers (16) than field goals (15).

"Tempo has been down for the last couple of games and that is not the way we play," said Granger. "We have to improve on the turnovers, shoot the ball better and get our shots to drop."

After a quick start in the first three games Granger has gone ice-cold, hitting 8-of-31 (.258) in the last two with nine turnovers. Hibbert had six turnovers against the Bucks and continued to struggle with his shot (.426 for the season). Collison also has shot poorly (.369) and has more turnovers (six) than assists (five) in the last two games.

Even Mike Dunleavy, normally a reliable and productive offensive machine, has struggled. He's shooting just 34.6 percent for the season and is 6-of-25 from the 3-point line.

"I'm not crazy about our offense," O'Brien said after the Milwaukee loss. "I wasn't crazy about it before the game and I'm not crazy about it after the game. We put the ball in Roy's hands and he couldn't finish plays down low. When he tried to be a passer he turned it over. We need to get him a lot of experience at the end of the game and he had to guard (Luc Mbah a Moute) who is very quick to the glass and had six offensive rebounds. We gave the ball to Danny and he missed some open shots and had some key turnovers.

"We just have to figure some things out offensively."

Though frustrated by the early struggle, O'Brien is not entirely surprised. Collison and Josh McRoberts are in their first seasons starting in this system. Hibbert is adapting to a much bigger role within the offensive structure.

"Let's say this: should we be a little further along? I would've hoped we would've been at this point, offensively," said the coach. "I'm not seeing that. I'm not seeing the type of movement that we practice day-in and day-out. And until we get that we're not going to be the offensive team that I envision."

So, according to O'Brien, Collison doesn't play fast enough, and the ball doesn't reverse from side to side. No change in the offense to match Collison's strengths so far, and none are indicated to be forthcoming by O'Brien. Sounds like a job for a point guard who is known for getting assists in an offense that operates more in the half court in reality, like Price, who will not see the floor any time soon.

Also, according to O'Brien, getting the ball into Roy's hands apparently doesn't allow the team to reach its full potential because it would require walking the ball up the court to call plays that get the ball into his hands. Again, it sounds to me like a job for an offense that slows down and passes the ball, and would be more effective doing so, thereby establishing a foundation on the inside to build a perimeter offense off of.

However, O'Brien wants to increase the tempo. Ford is the answer that will happen with increasing frequency. He plays the game the way O'Brien wants it to be played, just without the 3 point shooting. And, Hibbert will become marginalized once more because he doesn't fit the uptempo even at his lighter, quicker weight. Also, I believe Posey will play an increasing role on the second unit due to the relative ineffectiveness of both McRoberts and Hansbrough in O'Brien's eyes because he hits occasional 3's.

Bball
11-08-2010, 11:49 AM
Never has a coach more deserved to be fired...

xBulletproof
11-08-2010, 11:52 AM
I'm a huge Collison fan, as has been posted 100 times, but his ability on the fast break needs some work. He either passes the ball to the guy in the lane too early, and gives the defense time to react, or he gets tunnel vision and is determined to get his own shot at the rim.

I think that's been his biggest issue so far. We've lost a lot of points to this.

OakMoses
11-08-2010, 11:53 AM
Never has a coach more deserved to be fired...

Ridiculous.

Justin Tyme
11-08-2010, 12:01 PM
he makes get me thinking his mind is somewhere else.


Maybe, he'd rather be elsewhere.

Bball
11-08-2010, 12:03 PM
Ridiculous.


True I was using a bit of hyperbole there... Because plenty of coaches have deserved to be fired throughout history. O'Brien is just one of them...

Justin Tyme
11-08-2010, 12:09 PM
I recall hearing whoever was doing the commentary of the game that he said that there was one play where Illyasova ( who I think was playing PF ) was going to take a shot but he got spooked when someone as big and strong as Hansbrough came charging at him.

I saw enough of the last couple of minutes in the game to see someone on the Team take a jumpshot, clank the shot with ONLY 1 "White shirt" inside the paint ( Hibbert ) to know that I think that it would have been more prudent to give more minutes to an actual PF in the rotation.

The only thing that I can complement the Team on was the defense in the last couple of minutes. It was really good and kept us in the game until the wheels fell off on the offensive end.


I have notice more often that there are few Pacers in a position to rebound. It gets frustrating to me seeing 3-4 of the opposing teams players under the basket and 1 or none of the Pacers. I'm old fashion in that I want to see a team rebound and play "D". Those two things win games. I'm tired of trying to play run n gun trying to just beat a team by doing nothing more than out scoring them.

Mackey_Rose
11-08-2010, 12:13 PM
I have notice more often that there are few Pacers in a position to rebound. It gets frustrating to me seeing 3-4 of the opposing teams players under the basket and 1 or none of the Pacers. I'm old fashion in that I want to see a team rebound and play "D". Those two things win games. I'm tired of trying to play run n gun trying to just beat a team by doing nothing more than out scoring them.

What do you expect? McRoberts fouled out with four fouls. Hansbrough can't shoot 3's.

Clearly the only good lineup we can put out at the end of games is Ford, Dunleavy, Granger, Posey, Hibbert. Those guys are our closers. If that lineup doesn't scream defense and rebounding, I don't know what would.

OakMoses
11-08-2010, 12:31 PM
True I was using a bit of hyperbole there... Because plenty of coaches have deserved to be fired throughout history. O'Brien is just one of them...

How does firing O'Brien make the team better this year?

Justin Tyme
11-08-2010, 12:35 PM
The Pacers need another good big who can
score. I don't know where that is going to come from.


It has to come from Bird and SOON! Bird can't keep counting on Solo, yuk, or waiting for Foster to be healthy.

Mackey_Rose
11-08-2010, 12:35 PM
How does firing O'Brien make the team better this year?

How does it make them worse?

Justin Tyme
11-08-2010, 12:39 PM
That has been their problem for several years now. When teams get up and pressure us, as the Bucks did, the pacers offense grinds to a halt.

I think the Pacers tried to cram the ball into Roy, but the Bucks were fronting the post and double team front and back when we lobbed it into him

That's why the Pacers need another Big to help Hibbert.

Brad8888
11-08-2010, 12:47 PM
O'Brien won't be fired, but it would be beneficial if he were.

Firing O'Brien would minimize the damage to the new guys, while the ones who have had exposure to O'Brien would begin to unlearn what they have been taught, and hopefully begin to play fundamental basketball in time to be a ready foundation for when the franchise has the cap space to add the rest of the talent. And, that coach would then have valid input with respect to what talent he believes is necessary in a better system.

Also, fans would start to believe that the Pacers are serious about changing and becoming competitive, and enough might show up at games to cover the increase in coaching salaries due to eating the remainder of the O'Brien contract, especially if the team has a fairly quick increase in performance, which I would consider likely depending on who is brought in. I wouldn't even mind seeing Lester Connor be given a chance, but I suspect that the Pacers have permanently burnt that bridge unless the front office is completely turned over.

Hicks
11-08-2010, 12:47 PM
How does firing O'Brien make the team better this year?

If his replacement were to run the offense through Collison and Roy (in that order, for the time being), it would be a start. And yes, I realize both of them are still inconsistent.

Bball
11-08-2010, 12:49 PM
How does firing O'Brien make the team better this year?

Because the sooner he's gone the sooner we can get the players working on a smarter brand of basketball and playing to their strengths. We can relegate this hurry up and waste a possession brand of basketball to the scrap heap of history. We can hopefully keep the chemistry from dissolving as the players internally (rightly) question everything from the merits of this system and the abilities of their teammates all the way to the wisdom of the front office by allowing this to continue.

Even IF O'Brien was winning with his system I wouldn't be thrilled with it because it's bad basketball and it isn't sustainable as a winning system IMHO. But he's not winning with it and he's not going to win with it. This team isn't going to outrun anyone... It's stupid to keep trying.

Slow it down... value every possession... pass the basketball... force the opposing defense to work... break the opposing defense down.... and defend defend defend...

And "Fire O'Brien" because he stands for none of that.

Even if you could argue O'Brien wants his teams to defend, his desires on his beloved offensive system negates that.

O'Brien shouldn't even be on the bench this season. He should've been fired mid-season last year and Lester Conner should be getting a chance to prove his HC'ing credentials or keeping the seat warm for a proven talent if it wasn't working.

O'Brien is going to kill any fan mojo let alone team mojo that has been built up with the Collision trade... because O'Brien isn't veering from his failed system.

Unclebuck
11-08-2010, 01:01 PM
So, according to O'Brien, Collison doesn't play fast enough, and the ball doesn't reverse from side to side. No change in the offense to match Collison's strengths so far, and none are indicated to be forthcoming by O'Brien. Sounds like a job for a point guard who is known for getting assists in an offense that operates more in the half court in reality, like Price, who will not see the floor any time soon.

Also, according to O'Brien, getting the ball into Roy's hands apparently doesn't allow the team to reach its full potential because it would require walking the ball up the court to call plays that get the ball into his hands. Again, it sounds to me like a job for an offense that slows down and passes the ball, and would be more effective doing so, thereby establishing a foundation on the inside to build a perimeter offense off of.

However, O'Brien wants to increase the tempo. Ford is the answer that will happen with increasing frequency. He plays the game the way O'Brien wants it to be played, just without the 3 point shooting. And, Hibbert will become marginalized once more because he doesn't fit the uptempo even at his lighter, quicker weight. Also, I believe Posey will play an increasing role on the second unit due to the relative ineffectiveness of both McRoberts and Hansbrough in O'Brien's eyes because he hits occasional 3's.


Wow, I guess I read Jim's comments completely different. He is saying Collison has never been in a running system, so it is going to take him some time. And when we do run and reverse the ball that is when Hibbert is the most effective.

How can we each read the exact same thing and conclude the exact opposite.

And no Ford is not Jim's type of point guard - he hasn't been for 2 seasons, so how could be possibly be now.

I am at a 100% complete loss to explain why I read Jim's comments and I say yes, that makes sense, and most of you read it and get all upset. Do I have a brain tumor or something. I'm being serious.

Brad8888
11-08-2010, 01:01 PM
O'Brien is going to kill any fan mojo let alone team mojo that has been built up with the Collision trade... because O'Brien isn't veering from his failed system.

And, he never has intended to, and he never will. He just expects players to be acquired to fit his system, because literally no one here does besides Granger, with the exception of Ford, who cannot hit 3's.

Well, lets see. He needs 2001 Allen Iverson at point. He needs a young Ray Allen at the 2, a young Paul Pierce at the 3, a young Kevin Garnett at the 4, and Bill Russell at the 5.

That is all that is required for O'Brien to masterfully guide our franchise to the playoffs, and we might even make the second round, and have a puncher's chance at the eastern conference finals.

Make it happen Larry! That is all that Jimmy needs! All Star talent at all five starting positions that share his vision and apparently yours, too!

Mackey_Rose
11-08-2010, 01:11 PM
Wow, I guess I read Jim's comments completely different. He is saying Collison has never been in a running system, so it is going to take him some time. And when we do run and reverse the ball that is when Hibbert is the most effective.

How can we each read the exact same thing and conclude the exact opposite.

And no Ford is not Jim's type of point guard - he hasn't been for 2 seasons, so how could be possibly be now.

I am at a 100% complete loss to explain why I read Jim's comments and I say yes, that makes sense, and most of you read it and get all upset. Do I have a brain tumor or something. I'm being serious.

Maybe having your head in the sand for so long can indeed be a cause of tumor formation.

But what would I know, I'm no brain surgeon.

vnzla81
11-08-2010, 01:17 PM
Maybe having your head in the sand for so long can indeed be a cause of tumor formation.

But what would I know, I'm no brain surgeon.

:laugh:

xBulletproof
11-08-2010, 01:20 PM
I am at a 100% complete loss to explain why I read Jim's comments and I say yes, that makes sense, and most of you read it and get all upset. Do I have a brain tumor or something. I'm being serious.

It may have more to do with you taking his words at face value, and most of us knowing he won't do what he says anyway.

You read and interpret literally, we read and interpret what it means is more likely to happen.

Unclebuck
11-08-2010, 01:44 PM
It may have more to do with you taking his words at face value, and most of us knowing he won't do what he says anyway.

You read and interpret literally, we read and interpret what it means is more likely to happen.

It could be that, or it could fall under the category of if Jim saysd the sky is blue 85% of the posters in this forum would say either Jim is wrong the sky is not blue or that Jim doesn't really mean it.

Most of you gave up on Jim at least a year ago. I fully understand that. But it gets frustrating for someone like me who enjoys discussing basketball.

Mackey_Rose
11-08-2010, 01:46 PM
It could be that, or it could fall under the category of if Jim saysd the sky is blue 85% of the posters in this forum would say either Jim is wrong the sky is not blue or that Jim doesn't really mean it.

Most of you gave up on Jim at least a year ago. I fully understand that. But it gets frustrating for someone like me who enjoys discussing basketball

This isn't going to help the discussion in any way because it's been said ad nauseum, but i'm going to say it anyway.

It is true I gave up on Jim long before this season tipped off, but I also enjoy discussing basketball, I do not enjoy discussing the sorry excuse for "basketball" that Jim O'Brien has force fed us Pacer fans for years now. His brand of basketball looks more like a pickup game you'd find at the local YMCA.

Bball
11-08-2010, 01:51 PM
Wow, I guess I read Jim's comments completely different. He is saying Collison has never been in a running system, so it is going to take him some time. And when we do run and reverse the ball that is when Hibbert is the most effective.

How can we each read the exact same thing and conclude the exact opposite.

And no Ford is not Jim's type of point guard - he hasn't been for 2 seasons, so how could be possibly be now.

I am at a 100% complete loss to explain why I read Jim's comments and I say yes, that makes sense, and most of you read it and get all upset. Do I have a brain tumor or something. I'm being serious.

I admit... your constant defending of O'Brien, especially from someone like you who I know values defense, has caused me to think you need your head examined! ;)


But onto this:

I am at a 100% complete loss to explain why I read Jim's comments and I say yes, that makes sense, and most of you read it and get all upset.

Because he said a lot of other stuff too. Most of it confirming our fears that Jim O'Brien 2010 is just like O'Brien 2009... and 2008...
It's still all about tempo (and not slowing it down either)... and perimeter shooting (and not necessarily just from the wings)... and nothing about adjusting and conforming to the strengths of our players... nothing about shoring up our defense and limiting the other team's scoring. Just how he thinks we could and should score more.

He will always going running home for his security blanket. There is NO other system for Jim "You can't score if you don't shoot" O'Brien.

Bball
11-08-2010, 01:57 PM
It could be that, or it could fall under the category of if Jim saysd the sky is blue 85% of the posters in this forum would say either Jim is wrong the sky is not blue or that Jim doesn't really mean it.

Most of you gave up on Jim at least a year ago. I fully understand that. But it gets frustrating for someone like me who enjoys discussing basketball.

We are discussing basketball... I can't help it that Jim O'Brien is the one dictating the type of basketball being played and it isn't very good basketball. Everything points back to Jim O'Brien.

Of course the majority have given up on him. He's not a good fit for people that love basketball "played the right way"- defense, valuing possessions, smart play breaking down the other team, sharing the ball, teamwork, a system that makes the team greater than its individual parts...

Worse... he speaks double-talk a great part of the time and is usually a walking contradiction.

Unclebuck
11-08-2010, 02:02 PM
Bball, we have known each other for awhile (in this forum) and I certainly respect you and your basketball knowledge, but even if I thought Jim was the worst coach ever I wouldn't keep harping on it like so many do here (not singling anyone out, just the general tone). I thought Isiah was a horrible coach and I said so in the forum at the time, but I didn't day after day beat the dead horse. I mean I discussed what Isiah did wrong, but didn't again and again say he was awful, should be fired, start thread after thread

I fully admit I think Jim's biggest failure while the coach here is that he hasn't gotten the pacers players to play defense as well as I would like. I think his system is fine, but maybe his teaching of it is flawed. I've stated that several times over the last few seasons. But I don't again and again beat the dead horse.

I also in some ways like to think we as pacers fans should respect the position of Pacers coach. I didn't respect isiah, but I'd like to think I respected the position he had and wanted him to succeed.

Since86
11-08-2010, 02:07 PM
Maybe we keep harping on it, because everytime something negatively is said about Jim there are posters that defend his actions?

It's kind of hard to argue if no one is debating the other side. But that's not what happens.

Bball
11-08-2010, 02:09 PM
I also in some ways like to think we as pacers fans should respect the position of Pacers coach. I didn't respect isiah, but I'd like to think I respected the position he had and wanted him to succeed

I think there comes a point when it's just not possible to expect fans to respect the position of HC (or GM). Of course everyone wants their team's HC to succeed but you reach a point where you can see that is not the likely outcome. The more likely outcome is the coach needs replaced before the fanbase (and of course team) lose all respect for him.

That is where O'Brien is at now (and has been for some time). The Collison trade offered him the possibility to reinvent himself with the shine of a new season coming on but this article makes it clear that isn't truly in the realm of possibility. ...And most people hoped against the odds a change would be the case. It wasn't going to take much to swing them into the "Fire O'Brien" camp...

Unclebuck
11-08-2010, 02:13 PM
Maybe we keep harping on it, because everytime something negatively is said about Jim there are posters that defend his actions?

It's kind of hard to argue if no one is debating the other side. But that's not what happens.

So if I, Flox, Bills, and a few others (they can remain nameless to protect the innocent) just shut up you are saying all this would end. Can you promise.

Is that what we really want though.

Might make my life easier. In fact starting I think in early March 2010 I vowed to stay away from all Jim O'Brien discussion and I did for the most part. Of course that was when the team played pretty well.

Bball
11-08-2010, 02:15 PM
So if I, Flox, Bills, and a few others (they can remain nameless to protect the innocent) just shut up you are saying all this would end. Can you promise.

Is that what we really want though.

Might make my life easier. In fact starting I think in early March 2010 I vowed to stay away from all Jim O'Brien discussion and I did for the most part. Of course that was when the team played pretty well.

The sad thing is you can name the supporters here on one hand! ...And a couple of the supporters would vote "fire him" if given the choice and are instead simply supporting the Pacers by not dissing the HC chosen by the Pacer hierarchy.

BillS
11-08-2010, 02:18 PM
Maybe we keep harping on it, because everytime something negatively is said about Jim there are posters that defend his actions?

It's kind of hard to argue if no one is debating the other side. But that's not what happens.

So better would be for the people who disagree to keep their mouths shut. That way the conclusions would seem unanimous and make it even more hard to believe that an opposing opinion could exist.

Seriously, the "harping" is the constant posts (not from you) that answer every question about why something is going wrong with the answer "because JOB sucks" or every speculation by the press with "JOB is/will be lying" without any further exposition (or even sometimes acknowledgment that the story was not a quote, though it was treated as one).

The ones who DO provide a little more specifics are the ones worth discussing basketball with. The ones who just drop back 10 yards and shout "JOB sucks" are the ones making it tiring.

Since86
11-08-2010, 02:31 PM
So if I, Flox, Bills, and a few others (they can remain nameless to protect the innocent) just shut up you are saying all this would end. Can you promise.

Is that what we really want though.

Might make my life easier. In fact starting I think in early March 2010 I vowed to stay away from all Jim O'Brien discussion and I did for the most part. Of course that was when the team played pretty well.

Can I promise that I won't harp on it? Well it depends on what your definition of "harping" is. I will certainly continue to point out his mistakes. But I'm not going to argue with myself over them.

But a lot of it will be cut down, because a lot of it is back-and-forths between posters.

I can't speak for other posters, but I know I think I'm walking in another universe when when we have people defending Jim for not instructing his players to foul when you're down 2pts and the shotclock/game clock is less than 2secs apart. I mean, I consider that basketball 101, but yet 3pages of this thread is devoted to arguing about it.

Sure, it gets tired to read all of it, but I get tired of seeing people defend Jim, just to defend him too.

Unclebuck
11-08-2010, 02:40 PM
.

I can't speak for other posters, but I know I think I'm walking in another universe when when we have people defending Jim for not instructing his players to foul when you're down 2pts and the shotclock/game clock is less than 2secs apart. I mean, I consider that basketball 101, but yet 3pages of this thread is devoted to arguing about it.



I thought the correct play was to foul, but so often the offensive team gets impatient, if there wasn't a foul called and the Pacers rebound the ball cleanly they would have had enough time to win the game. This is a good example. I don't think it was a stupid decision not to foul. I would have fouled right away, but it could have worked out very well.

Sort of like when you lead buy 3 points and other team has the ball do you foul or not. I don't think there is an easy answer. But if that happens this year - most will criticize Jim if he doesn't foul, when that isn't always the right decision - a lot of factors need to be considered.

Since86
11-08-2010, 02:40 PM
So better would be for the people who disagree to keep their mouths shut. That way the conclusions would seem unanimous and make it even more hard to believe that an opposing opinion could exist.

Yep, that's what I said. Glad we got that out of the way.


Seriously, the "harping" is the constant posts (not from you) that answer every question about why something is going wrong with the answer "because JOB sucks" or every speculation by the press with "JOB is/will be lying" without any further exposition (or even sometimes acknowledgment that the story was not a quote, though it was treated as one).

And which poster has contributed the most to this thread on why Jim is a bad coach? My vote goes to Pacers4ever. And at the same time, I agree with everything he's saying. Yet him and flox argued for over 2pages about the timeout situation. I consider that "harping" because the discussion never changed, it was one constant stream of thought on the same exact 26secs of game time.


And about this "he's lying thing." You have to admit he talks out both sides of his mouth. Here for the past few weeks you, and UB, have said that you defend Jim so much, because you think the criticism has been over the top. But come on, Jim saying one thing and then doing the complete opposite is a running joke with most of us, yet you continue to act like whatever Jim say's should just be ignored because it's the right thing to do.

There's zero REASON why he should tell Mike Wells that he is thinking that Rush will start, if he's not really going to in reality. There's no reason to open your mouth on the subject. You're just talking to hear yourself talk.

We shouldn't have to decipher every freaking sentence that he utters. He should say what he means, and mean what he says. I know, what a noble concept.

The grandkids want icecream, I think I'm going to take them to go get some. Now in reality, that means I will wait patiently for your response, which I will quickly reply too. No, I'm not lying, I just changed my mind.



The ones who DO provide a little more specifics are the ones worth discussing basketball with. The ones who just drop back 10 yards and shout "JOB sucks" are the ones making it tiring.

Then put those posters on ignore. Problem solved. If you get tired of reading their one line posts, then either don't read them and pass them by, or take away the temptation and place them on ignore.

BillS
11-08-2010, 02:45 PM
Then put those posters on ignore. Problem solved. If you get tired of reading their one line posts, then either don't read them and pass them by, or take away the temptation and place them on ignore.

My "ignore" button is as shiny and new as when I first got it, because I am usually afraid that I will actually miss something of substance from someone that says something important. There has really been no one I thought was incapable of good posts from time to time.

However, the temptation this season has been higher than at any time in my long experience with BBS, mailing lists, IRC, and fora.

vnzla81
11-08-2010, 02:49 PM
My ignore button is shiny too, I don't used it or ever will.(maybe ;))

Mackey_Rose
11-08-2010, 03:19 PM
So better would be for the people who disagree to keep their mouths shut. That way the conclusions would seem unanimous and make it even more hard to believe that an opposing opinion could exist.

Seriously, the "harping" is the constant posts (not from you) that answer every question about why something is going wrong with the answer "because JOB sucks" or every speculation by the press with "JOB is/will be lying" without any further exposition (or even sometimes acknowledgment that the story was not a quote, though it was treated as one).

The ones who DO provide a little more specifics are the ones worth discussing basketball with. The ones who just drop back 10 yards and shout "JOB sucks" are the ones making it tiring.

I think what gets frustrating (I'm only speaking for myself here) is that the JOB-defending triumvirate treats any criticism of JOB as the knee jerk reactionary response of a lesser class, regardless of whether they believe it to be right or not.

At this point, criticism of JOB is in no way reactionary or knee jerk. It is three years of pent up frustration coming to the surface for many people. When it seems obvious that a change could certainly not do any more harm than good, why isn't a change made?

Sookie
11-08-2010, 03:20 PM
Wow, I guess I read Jim's comments completely different. He is saying Collison has never been in a running system, so it is going to take him some time. And when we do run and reverse the ball that is when Hibbert is the most effective.

How can we each read the exact same thing and conclude the exact opposite.

And no Ford is not Jim's type of point guard - he hasn't been for 2 seasons, so how could be possibly be now.

I am at a 100% complete loss to explain why I read Jim's comments and I say yes, that makes sense, and most of you read it and get all upset. Do I have a brain tumor or something. I'm being serious.

Then why is he playing?

Look, I like Darren, and I think in a good offensive system he'll be a very good player. But his skills are not made for this one. That said, I know he'll try.

Neither are Ford's.

However, we have a point guard that DOES get the system and can run it efficiently.

Even though Price was taking a majority of the shots, there was more ball movement in lineups such as "Price, George, Posey, Tyler, Foster" Or "Price, Dun, George, Posey, Solo" then there were in the starting lineups often times. How is that even possible? One lineup has, arguably, four great passers, the other only has one when it's just AJ and two when it's AJ and Dun.

Watch the lineups with Price and Dun in them, it actually looks good. The ball movement and player movement when those two were on the court together was exceptional..and because there were two players that knew what the heck they were doing, they could run the rest of the team well too. I want to actually look up the differences in Dun's stats when he plays with Price vs when he doesn't. I think it'd be interesting, because I suspect that there's a pretty big difference in quality of play from Dun.

And second, we have a turnover problem..and we're playing two incredibly turnover prone point guards...WTF. Once again, we have a PG that isn't turnover prone. If AJ had three turnovers in a game, that's excessive for him. That's what Darren averages. And I think TJ's even more turnover prone. (He hasn't turned it over as much so far this year, but just wait until other teams start scouting better. Half of TJ's passes..whe he dribbles too far into the paint and passes out..will get picked off quite often.)

So essentially, we're playing too extremely ball dominant PGs who tend to turn the ball over excessively..and our problem is a stagnant offense and turnovers...and we have a PG that would help that because it's an offense built around transition and half court understandings..and he's in a suit.

Now, personally, I think JOB would prefer to be playing Price and Ford (start Ford, backup Price)..which is something I'd be screaming about just as much (okay..almost as much..;) ) But he can't because we traded to get Darren.

And Darren should be playing, and Price should be playing.
I think THAT would significantly help out our offense, because if Darren isn't running it correctly, we'd actually have a backup PG capable of running the offense. I find Darren to be a "Let's go..Let's go..Let's go" energizer bunny type of player. And I find AJ to be a "Settle the eff down" kind of player. It's a good combo. Meanwhile TJ is a "pound the ball until it's flat" kind of player.

So moral of my long rant. JOB wants to help this team. Put Rush in the starting lineup so the backcourt has someone that'll play defense. And play Price and Dun in the second unit together, so we'll have some ball movement at some time. And the play which ever PG is playing the best at the end of the game.

Scot Pollard
11-08-2010, 03:22 PM
we better ****in win tomorrow or im going to lose my mind

Justin Tyme
11-08-2010, 03:39 PM
Because the sooner he's gone the sooner we can get the players working on a smarter brand of basketball and playing to their strengths. We can relegate this hurry up and waste a possession brand of basketball to the scrap heap of history. We can hopefully keep the chemistry from dissolving as the players internally (rightly) question everything from the merits of this system and the abilities of their teammates all the way to the wisdom of the front office by allowing this to continue.

Even IF O'Brien was winning with his system I wouldn't be thrilled with it because it's bad basketball and it isn't sustainable as a winning system IMHO. But he's not winning with it and he's not going to win with it. This team isn't going to outrun anyone... It's stupid to keep trying.

Slow it down... value every possession... pass the basketball... force the opposing defense to work... break the opposing defense down.... and defend defend defend...

And "Fire O'Brien" because he stands for none of that.

Even if you could argue O'Brien wants his teams to defend, his desires on his beloved offensive system negates that.

O'Brien shouldn't even be on the bench this season. He should've been fired mid-season last year and Lester Conner should be getting a chance to prove his HC'ing credentials or keeping the seat warm for a proven talent if it wasn't working.

O'Brien is going to kill any fan mojo let alone team mojo that has been built up with the Collision trade... because O'Brien isn't veering from his failed system.


Great post telling it like it is!

BUT unfortunately, Jimmy isn't going to be fired.
1) Herb Simon isn't going to pay 2 coaches.
2) Bird is either too loyal or too stubborn to fire Jimmy.

I have come to the reality Jimmy is here as coach for the 010-011 season. :( : cry:

vnzla81
11-08-2010, 03:40 PM
we better ****in win tomorrow or im going to lose my mind

You already did, you got that ugly guy as your avatar ;)

Scot Pollard
11-08-2010, 03:44 PM
You already did, you got that ugly guy as your avatar ;)

:laugh:

ive been meaning to change it

i fix it now

i was trying to make it seem like an area 55 fat head

too bad rswift isnt in the league anymore because that wouldve been funny

Justin Tyme
11-08-2010, 03:45 PM
Wow, I guess I read Jim's comments completely different. He is saying Collison has never been in a running system, so it is going to take him some time. And when we do run and reverse the ball that is when Hibbert is the most effective.

How can we each read the exact same thing and conclude the exact opposite.

And no Ford is not Jim's type of point guard - he hasn't been for 2 seasons, so how could be possibly be now.

I am at a 100% complete loss to explain why I read Jim's comments and I say yes, that makes sense, and most of you read it and get all upset. Do I have a brain tumor or something. I'm being serious.


Maybe you are the type of person that just sees the good in everyone or you are very gulible.

Justin Tyme
11-08-2010, 03:49 PM
It may have more to do with you taking his words at face value, and most of us knowing he won't do what he says anyway.

You read and interpret literally, we read and interpret what it means is more likely to happen.



Great explaination!

nerveghost
11-08-2010, 03:52 PM
I like what I see so far from the team defensively...I think they are starting to get it. The offense has looked good at times. This team still needs time to gel, fellas. Don't be so consumed in hatred that you can't see the good stuff starting to happen. This team is close to getting over the hump from a bad team to a good team.

Justin Tyme
11-08-2010, 04:17 PM
There's zero REASON why he should tell Mike Wells that he is thinking that Rush will start, if he's not really going to in reality. There's no reason to open your mouth on the subject. You're just talking to hear yourself talk.



I'm begining to come to the conclusion O'Brien says things to stir the pot. He knows he's not well liked by the Pacers fans, so he says things just to get their reaction and upset them. He thinks his intelligence is so vastly superior to the fans and looks down his nose at them feeling they aren't on his level. He just thoroughly enjoys the flap he causes.

Unclebuck
11-08-2010, 04:26 PM
Does anyone know why Jim doesn't have his radio show this year?

I suppose lack of interest/ad dollars is the most likely reason, but I wonder if Jim decided he didn't want to do it.

Since86
11-08-2010, 04:34 PM
I'm begining to come to the conclusion O'Brien says things to stir the pot. He knows he's not well liked by the Pacers fans, so he says things just to get their reaction and upset them. He thinks his intelligence is so vastly superior to the fans and looks down his nose at them feeling they aren't on his level. He just thoroughly enjoys the flap he causes.

Nah. The whole issue really is nit-picky, it's just the established pattern and how he continually does it, that's the problem.

I just think he talks before he really works out how it's going to go down.

vnzla81
11-08-2010, 04:45 PM
Does anyone know why Jim doesn't have his radio show this year?

I suppose lack of interest/ad dollars is the most likely reason, but I wonder if Jim decided he didn't want to do it.

Maybe because UB, Bill and Flox were the only listeners. :D

Scot Pollard
11-08-2010, 04:52 PM
Does anyone know why Jim doesn't have his radio show this year?

I suppose lack of interest/ad dollars is the most likely reason, but I wonder if Jim decided he didn't want to do it.

because hes mean to the people that call in and no one wants to listen to him

flox
11-08-2010, 05:27 PM
Wow, I guess I read Jim's comments completely different. He is saying Collison has never been in a running system, so it is going to take him some time. And when we do run and reverse the ball that is when Hibbert is the most effective.

How can we each read the exact same thing and conclude the exact opposite.

And no Ford is not Jim's type of point guard - he hasn't been for 2 seasons, so how could be possibly be now.

I am at a 100% complete loss to explain why I read Jim's comments and I say yes, that makes sense, and most of you read it and get all upset. Do I have a brain tumor or something. I'm being serious.
I'm seeing the same things you are seeing.


It could be that, or it could fall under the category of if Jim saysd the sky is blue 85% of the posters in this forum would say either Jim is wrong the sky is not blue or that Jim doesn't really mean it.

Most of you gave up on Jim at least a year ago. I fully understand that. But it gets frustrating for someone like me who enjoys discussing basketball.
Yeah, same here.

McKeyFan
11-08-2010, 07:29 PM
Well, lets see. He needs 2001 Allen Iverson at point. He needs a young Ray Allen at the 2, a young Paul Pierce at the 3, a young Kevin Garnett at the 4, and Bill Russell at the 5.


Except he would sub Bill Russell for Walter McCarty at the end of the game.

Bball
11-08-2010, 07:34 PM
Except he would sub Bill Russell for Walter McCarty at the end of the game.


If he had McCarty then Russell wouldn't see the floor...

McKeyFan
11-08-2010, 07:49 PM
I'm begining to come to the conclusion O'Brien says things to stir the pot. He knows he's not well liked by the Pacers fans, so he says things just to get their reaction and upset them. He thinks his intelligence is so vastly superior to the fans and looks down his nose at them feeling they aren't on his level. He just thoroughly enjoys the flap he causes.

I bet Jim was a great assistant coach. Really into stats and the technical aspects of the game. A teacher type who works on various aspects of the game with individual players. A team player who believes in heirarchy and loyalty.

But that skill set doesn't necessarily translate into head coach material. He just doesn't make good judgements in several areas: personnel and courtside decisions for starters.

It's like taking the CFO of a corporation and making him top salesman/CEO. Different gift sets. And as Jim struggles, he bucks up and gets testy and defensive. Tough to watch.

McKeyFan
11-08-2010, 07:51 PM
Does anyone know why Jim doesn't have his radio show this year?

I suppose lack of interest/ad dollars is the most likely reason, but I wonder if Jim decided he didn't want to do it.

I think he got really annoyed with being challenged by callers.