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gknjr007
11-05-2010, 12:55 PM
Why do people on this board talk about tj ford only being in the rotation to showcase him off to other teams for a trade. Teams know who he is and they know what he can do. You act as if he is going to show something different than he has in past years. He is our back up point guard and he deserves to be. Even last year people on this board said he is not a starter and he would be a perfect back-up. SO why is it when he is finnally our back up, people what him gone. Hes been a model citizen about everything. About aj price i like him as much as the next guy, but he isnt going to be as cosistant as tj ford is right now (granted tj isnt as consistant himself). My point is tj ford is our back up point guard for a reason and it 100% is not TO SHOW HIM OFF TO OTHER TEAMS FOR A TRADE

Mackey_Rose
11-05-2010, 12:59 PM
Probably because the day that TJ Ford is no longer a Pacer, will be a great day for Pacers fans.

So we are trying to convince ourselves that maybe he will be traded, so that day comes sooner, rather than later.

Smoothdave1
11-05-2010, 01:01 PM
NBA teams know what a player can do based on their past, but they like to watch a player as NBA GM's have a "What have you done for me lately" approach for players.

If Bird believes he can make the team better with a trade, Ford will be shippped out before you're done reading this post.

vnzla81
11-05-2010, 01:01 PM
He is hurt and shouldn't be playing.

Regarding the idea of playing him to showcase him I think is a bunch of bull, people that like older guys playing use this as an excuse.

gknjr007
11-05-2010, 01:10 PM
All im saying is that he does have a place on this years roster. Next years roster he doesnt. If a good trade comes along do it by all means. i just dont like the guy treated as an outcast when he still is a pacer. Hes not jamaal tinsley.

MTM
11-05-2010, 01:14 PM
This whole discussion feels like a nonsequitor that should not merit its own post.

gknjr007
11-05-2010, 01:18 PM
This whole discussion feels like a nonsequitor that should not merit its own post.

then dont comment:D

Trophy
11-05-2010, 02:02 PM
He is hurt and shouldn't be playing.

Regarding the idea of playing him to showcase him I think is a bunch of bull, people that like older guys playing use this as an excuse.

I know he's hurt and JOB still has AJ in street clothes.

Sookie
11-05-2010, 02:05 PM
They aren't showcasing Ford.

I will say though, if another team wants TJ and has the perception that he's valuable to the Pacers, they might feel they have to give the Pacers more to get him.

That being said, I don't believe that's why JOB is playing TJ (it's probably why Larry is letting him though..) He's playing TJ over AJ because, despite being not as good or consistent, TJ's older. And that's the same reason TJ will finish games over Collison.

vnzla81
11-05-2010, 02:31 PM
They aren't showcasing Ford.

I will say though, if another team wants TJ and has the perception that he's valuable to the Pacers, they might feel they have to give the Pacers more to get him.

That being said, I don't believe that's why JOB is playing TJ (it's probably why Larry is letting him though..) He's playing TJ over AJ because, despite being not as good or consistent, TJ's older. And that's the same reason TJ will finish games over Collison.

And TJ makes more money too.

Justin Tyme
11-05-2010, 02:36 PM
Probably because the day that TJ Ford is no longer a Pacer, will be a great day for Pacers fans.

So we are trying to convince ourselves that maybe he will be traded, so that day comes sooner, rather than later.


It will be a GREAT day for Ford as well. He danced when believing he had been traded to Charlotte. He's anxious to get out of Indiana as the fans are to see him go. Unfortunately, neithers wish has come true......... YET!

Please, Santa can I have an early X-mas gift? PLEASE!

BillS
11-05-2010, 02:47 PM
Well, giving his current playing time, I doubt if he's as antsy to get out as he was when he was riding the pine. Funny thing about that.

Unclebuck
11-05-2010, 02:51 PM
Whether they are showcasing him or not, whether they are only playing him to increase his trade value of not. The truth is if he continues to play as well as he has and stays healthy, his trade value will be at an alltime high around the trade deadline. A contending team will have a point guard get injured (it happens every year) and they will be desparate for a legitimate point guard. So watch the trade offers start rolling in after the first of the year

BringJackBack
11-05-2010, 03:05 PM
Showcasing or not, AJ Price should be playing over TJ Ford. Especially since he was the, "Best player in preseason."

Scot Pollard
11-05-2010, 03:22 PM
i dont care who is playing behind collison just as long as they dont get equal minutes as collison or definitly not getting more time than collison

its better to play a more knowledgable player behind a 2 year player

Unclebuck
11-05-2010, 03:31 PM
Showcasing or not, AJ Price should be playing over TJ Ford. Especially since he was the, "Best player in preseason."

The first 9 days of training camp/preseason which lasted 30 days total

flox
11-05-2010, 03:40 PM
One of the best closers we have.

Unless the Pacers are in the business of losing games, why aren't we playing TJ Ford?

Mackey_Rose
11-05-2010, 03:46 PM
One of the best closers we have.

Unless the Pacers are in the business of losing games, why aren't we playing TJ Ford?

Just because he has been in at the end of games so far this year does not make him a "closer."

He will lose more games for us than he will win.

Sookie
11-05-2010, 03:47 PM
The first 9 days of training camp/preseason which lasted 30 days total

JOB continued to say "AJ is playing really well" throughout the entire preseason, not just the first nine days.

And don't forget, he had planned to bench AJ the game after he had this quote in favor of TJ.

AJ's not the first player that JOB has treated..oddly, and he won't be the last. It's amazing to me that these guys are professional enough not to say anything.

As much as I dislike Ford the basketball player, I'll always respect him for the way he's handled himself with O'brien.

vnzla81
11-05-2010, 03:47 PM
One of the best closers we have.

Unless the Pacers are in the business of losing games, why aren't we playing TJ Ford?

One of the best closers? No wonder why we suck at closing games.

Unclebuck
11-05-2010, 03:52 PM
JOB continued to say "AJ is playing really well" throughout the entire preseason, not just the first nine days.



Playing well and the best player in camp are two entirely different things. he said Price was the best player in camp about 8 days into camp/preseason. I don't believe he said that later in the month

Hicks
11-05-2010, 04:14 PM
One of the best closers we have.

Translation: We are screwed.

pacer4ever
11-05-2010, 04:18 PM
One of the best closers we have.

Unless the Pacers are in the business of losing games, why aren't we playing TJ Ford?



:picard:



:suicide3:

Brad8888
11-05-2010, 04:23 PM
One of the best closers we have.

Unless the Pacers are in the business of losing games, why aren't we playing TJ Ford?

Unremarkably, O'Brien defended Jamaal Tinsley in exactly this way just prior to Tinsley's benching when people complained about his ball dominance down the stretch of several games. He indicated that he wouldn't want anyone besides Tinsley or O'Neal to have the ball down the stretch in close games because they gave the team the best chance to win. That led to complete stagnation offensively, coupled with the infamous JO clanking fadeaways and Jamaal driving wildly into the lane and either throwing up off balance shots that sometimes went in, but mostly didn't, or shovel passes to JO for more fadeaways or baby hooks where he frequently was off balance and not in good scoring position.

So, of course O'Brien sees TJ as the best option, and why he will play. He just hasn't had his own version of JO to get the ball to until now. Hibbert can shoot a fadeaway as effectively as JO did at the end, and he also has a baby hook that he shoots as well, and there is always the option of kicking the ball out to Hibbert for his 20' jumper that even JO wasn't foolhardy enough to attempt very often.

Good luck with that. Hopefully it works out well this time.

Sookie
11-05-2010, 04:39 PM
Playing well and the best player in camp are two entirely different things. he said Price was the best player in camp about 8 days into camp/preseason. I don't believe he said that later in the month

It's still remains silly to bench him in favor a worse player thats still injured and didn't prove anything in camp (in fairness, because he didn't have the opportunity to..but that doesn't change the fact that Ford didn't prove anything in camp. And has had two very poor performances as of late..which means he's had one good performance, one decent one, and two bad ones..)..

OakMoses
11-05-2010, 05:29 PM
Ford is playing because he's been outplaying Collison on the defensive end of the floor. Since Collison is a better defender than Price, I'd assume that Ford's been playing better defense than AJ as well.

It's a little funny to me how the critique of JOB loving 3 point shooters (Murphy over McBob, Posey over Hansbrough) gets replaced with JOB loves old, overpaid players as soon as the backup is a better shooter.

Sookie
11-05-2010, 05:31 PM
Ford is playing because he's been outplaying Collison on the defensive end of the floor. Since Collison is a better defender than Price, I'd assume that Ford's been playing better defense than AJ as well.

It's a little funny to me how the critique of JOB loving 3 point shooters (Murphy over McBob, Posey over Hansbrough) gets replaced with JOB loves old, overpaid players as soon as the backup is a better shooter.

Collison's not a better defender than Price.

He should be physically able to be a better defender than Price. (he should be physically able to be an extremely good defender) But right now he's not. AJ's about average. Collison's defense is bad. And TJ's defense is severly overrated by the coach. He applies good ball pressure (when he wants to), and is good D in a one on one situation, but is terrible in a PnR situation and not so great when his man doesn't have the ball.

cordobes
11-05-2010, 05:51 PM
Generally showcasing players is a futile effort.

However, playing Ford this season is one of those exceptions. He missed large parts of the last season and when he played he looked horrible and unfit to be on the court. He had several lingering injuries lately and hasn't played well in more than a year. People start to wondering how much he has declined - not in terms of production, but also in terms of his physical ability to replicate his part performances. It's not that they're going to believe Ford is better than he is, more that they may have doubts he can still be the player he used to be even during part of his 1st season with Indiana. With him out there, GMs can see he's in shape, mentally fit and eager to play the game.

That said, I doubt that - showcasing - is the main reason why he's playing.

OakMoses
11-05-2010, 05:52 PM
Collison's not a better defender than Price.

He should be physically able to be a better defender than Price. (he should be physically able to be an extremely good defender) But right now he's not. AJ's about average. Collison's defense is bad. And TJ's defense is severly overrated by the coach. He applies good ball pressure (when he wants to), and is good D in a one on one situation, but is terrible in a PnR situation and not so great when his man doesn't have the ball.

You make a good point. Collison has shown us flashes of really good defense, but he certainly hasn't been the defender we were all hoping we were getting. I think, however, you answer the question in your post. What O'Brien wants most out of the PG position defensively is ball-pressure. I've been thinking about it, and I've come to the conclusion that AJ is not able to defend the position the way O'Brien wants it defended. I don't think he has the quickness and recovery speed to really pressure the ball without getting beaten badly and consistently. Right or wrong, I think that's why he's not playing.

If I were ranking our 3 PG's, it would look like this:

Offense: Collison, Price, Ford - Collison gets the nod only because he's done it more often, it's nearly a toss-up offensively from what I've seen.

Defense: Ford, Collison, Price.

Sookie
11-05-2010, 06:14 PM
You make a good point. Collison has shown us flashes of really good defense, but he certainly hasn't been the defender we were all hoping we were getting. I think, however, you answer the question in your post. What O'Brien wants most out of the PG position defensively is ball-pressure. I've been thinking about it, and I've come to the conclusion that AJ is not able to defend the position the way O'Brien wants it defended. I don't think he has the quickness and recovery speed to really pressure the ball without getting beaten badly and consistently. Right or wrong, I think that's why he's not playing.

If I were ranking our 3 PG's, it would look like this:

Offense: Collison, Price, Ford - Collison gets the nod only because he's done it more often, it's nearly a toss-up offensively from what I've seen.

Defense: Ford, Collison, Price.

I don't think there's a basketball reason for why Ford is playing and AJ isn't.

In fact, if all three PGs were the same age, and there were no political reasons to play one over the other. (IE hype or trade) I think Price would be starting.

In terms of which PG makes the best decisions with the ball its Price, Collison, Ford

In terms of which PG turns the ball over the least its Price, Collison, Ford (toss up there)

In terms of which PG understands the offense the best its Price, Collison, Ford (toss up there again, but I'll give Collison the edge)

In terms of which PG's skills best fit the offense, its Price, Collison, Ford

All three of them can get into the lane (although, all three have their issues there..AJ doesn't have the athleticism that Darren has, and Darren and Ford tend to miss chippies..and Ford tends to penetrate too deep and lose the ball)

Defensively, depends what you want. You want stability, and for the opposing PG to not score as much. Price is better than the other three. You want steals, Darren's the best there. You want ball pressure, there's Ford for that.

Now, some here would argue about how Darren has more potential (or is better), and they would start him. But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if all three PGs were the same age, and there were no "other" reasons for playing a specific two, then JOB would be starting Price.

And in fact, if there weren't "other" reasons for starting and playing Darren. I think JOB would prefer to start TJ and have AJ as the backup. Simply because TJ's the vet, and AJ knows the system better..and quite frankly is better at it (not to mention the more solid defender right now)

And as it is, TJ's playing over AJ because TJ's a vet. (Same reason TJ's going to finish games) And Larry's probably fine with it, because if (big if) TJ plays well, we'll get a better player for him. The only issue is, if the TJ of last year shows up...(or he tears his himstring because we're making him play through an injury..)