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xBulletproof
11-04-2010, 04:17 PM
http://newsok.com/article/3511145


And while searching for answers ó for the most putrid perimeter shooting night of his career and his teamís second consecutive collapse ó Kevin Durant stopped in mid-sentence, conceded confusion and suddenly stormed out of his postgame press conference.

This board kills me. If this was Lebron James, it would have been posted by any one of 20 people looking to call for his head for it.

Yet, it was "good guy" Kevin Durant, and so nobody cares.

I love hypocrisy.

Sookie
11-04-2010, 04:28 PM
I get the feeling the author is being a bit dramatic. Just look at the writing. "His six turnovers will HAUNT" him..really? A bit dramatic..Durant probably paused, having nothing more to say..and no one asked more questions, so he left.

But what caught my eye was
“We just didn’t show up — I didn’t show up,” Durant said. “I’m the leader of this team. Everybody follows me. I didn’t show up. The team didn’t show up. That’s why we lost.”

A lot more accountability then "Everyone has bad games, I spoil people" <3 Lebron James

edit: also, there was a pattern of behavior from Lebron. And it took a long time before people started to mention it.

Mackey_Rose
11-04-2010, 04:31 PM
I get the feeling the author is being a bit dramatic. Just look at the writing. "His six turnovers will HAUNT" him..really? A bit dramatic..Durant probably paused, having nothing more to say..and no one asked more questions, so he left.

But what caught my eye was
ďWe just didnít show up ó I didnít show up,Ē Durant said. ďIím the leader of this team. Everybody follows me. I didnít show up. The team didnít show up. Thatís why we lost.Ē

A lot more accountability then "Everyone has bad games, I spoil people" <3 Lebron James

I wish our best player displayed the same sort of leadership and self-accountability that Durant does.

Pacers4Life
11-04-2010, 04:38 PM
this board is called Pacers Digest. Kevin Durant is not a Pacer. I'm upset about last night too... its ok. Friday will be here soon

Day-V
11-04-2010, 04:45 PM
This board kills me. If this was Lebron James, it would have been posted by any one of 20 people looking to call for his head for it.

Yet, it was "good guy" Kevin Durant, and so nobody cares.

I love hypocrisy.

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Slick Pinkham
11-04-2010, 04:48 PM
http://newsok.com/article/3511145



This board kills me. If this was Lebron James, it would have been posted by any one of 20 people looking to call for his head for it.

Yet, it was "good guy" Kevin Durant, and so nobody cares.

I love hypocrisy.

Blame ESPN or other media for any hypocrisy because I didn't hear about this until you posted it. It is hard to care about something when you are not even aware of its existence.

xBulletproof
11-04-2010, 04:50 PM
Blame ESPN or other media for any hypocrisy because I didn't hear about this until you posted it. It is hard to care about something when you are not even aware of its existence.

It's actually all over ESPN .....

xBulletproof
11-04-2010, 04:53 PM
this board is called Pacers Digest. Kevin Durant is not a Pacer.

Might want to read the very site your claiming to be the topic police about ....


Indiana Pacers (83 Viewing)
The place to talk Pacers and the rest of the NBA.

Sookie
11-04-2010, 04:58 PM
I wish our best player displayed the same sort of leadership and self-accountability that Durant does.

I'm okay with Danny being quiet. He doesn't have to talk to the press to be a leader. He can lead by example if he wants. He just needs to come out and set the tone the next game.

Pacers4Life
11-04-2010, 05:04 PM
This is the sandwich tactic... or so I've been told. It's a very useful tool for dealing with problems, conflict, etc. I really appreciate your effort to give us something to talk about given the circumstances of last night. Thats why I'm here, duh.
[filling] But given my current mindset I'm in no mood to be told this board kills you bcuz "no one cares about KD or the Thunder" to have a thread about it. I'd feel differently only if it were LeBron bcuz I despise that man with the [B]heat of 1,000 burning suns.
And upon rereading your opening post it still looks like what I viewed it as... a call out. Consider it answered.
[bread] :gopacers:

Roaming Gnome
11-04-2010, 05:10 PM
http://newsok.com/article/3511145



This board kills me. If this was Lebron James, it would have been posted by any one of 20 people looking to call for his head for it.

Yet, it was "good guy" Kevin Durant, and so nobody cares.

I love hypocrisy.

So...

cdash
11-04-2010, 05:12 PM
It's actually all over ESPN .....

I've been all over ESPN today, and hadn't seen this until now. I understand posting the article, but why try to dig in at people around here with that hypocrisy crap? I don't really think that was needed, and no one even stated an opinion on the matter before you took that line.

xBulletproof
11-04-2010, 05:18 PM
I've seen them discuss it on ESPN all afternoon. At least 4 or 5 different times.

The hypocrisy thing is mainly because Durant is lauded on this board as the "good guy", and most everyone loves him. Many, many people on here would throw a fit if Lebron did anything remotely close to it. It's the same as Dwight Howard doing push ups DURING a game the other day, and nobody cares. Let that be Lebron and it's reason to throw a fit as well. Just like when he danced on the sidelines during a game.

Nobody needs to state an opinion. I'm already fairly sure it's "all good", in fact he was probably justified in acting this way. Why? It's Durant.

Day-V
11-04-2010, 05:19 PM
I'm sorry that I have had **** to do and couldn't lock in to ESPN all day......

cdash
11-04-2010, 05:20 PM
I've seen them discuss it on ESPN all afternoon. At least 4 or 5 different times.

The hypocrisy thing is mainly because Durant is lauded on this board as the "good guy", and most everyone loves him. Many, many people on here would throw a fit if Lebron did anything remotely close to it. It's the same as Dwight Howard doing push ups DURING a game the other day, and nobody cares. Let that be Lebron and it's reason to throw a fit as well. Just like when he danced on the sidelines during a game.

Nobody needs to state an opinion. I'm already fairly sure it's "all good", in fact he was probably justified in acting this way. Why? It's Durant.

Then no further discussion is needed. You told the board what to think, and had the first and final say on the matter. Case closed.

xBulletproof
11-04-2010, 05:28 PM
Then no further discussion is needed. You told the board what to think, and had the first and final say on the matter. Case closed.

I didn't tell anyone "what" to think, it's just pretty predictable what they will think. Where was the backlash for Dwight Howard doing push ups on the sidelines during a win at the end of a game the other day? Same thing Lebron did, except he was dancing.

This was just another example of it. It's not how someone acts, it's who is doing the acting. Perception is entirely skewed by the person doing it.

Day-V
11-04-2010, 05:31 PM
I didn't tell anyone "what" to think, it's just pretty predictable what they will think. Where was the backlash for Dwight Howard doing push ups on the sidelines during a win at the end of a game the other day? Same thing Lebron did, except he was dancing.

Wasn't he doing push-ups because he missed 2 Free Throws, and that he has to do push-ups in practice whenever he misses Free throws as a punishment, Willie Mays Hayes Style?

Sookie
11-04-2010, 05:33 PM
I didn't tell anyone "what" to think, it's just pretty predictable what they will think. Where was the backlash for Dwight Howard doing push ups on the sidelines during a win at the end of a game the other day? Same thing Lebron did, except he was dancing.

This was just another example of it. It's not how someone acts, it's who is doing the acting. Perception is entirely skewed by the person doing it.

Except Dwight Howard was doing it for a punishment from his coach...

As I said. Lebron has a PATTERN of egotystical jerk type behavior. No one used to say anything about Lebron until it became too huge of a pattern to miss.

xBulletproof
11-04-2010, 05:35 PM
Wasn't he doing push-ups because he missed 2 Free Throws, and that he has to do push-ups in practice whenever he misses Free throws as a punishment, Willie Mays Hayes Style?

That can't be done after the game? Tally them up and do them the next day at practice? I don't know why that would make it okay.

This is exactly along the lines of my point. Excuses will be made for people that they want to make excuses for. For others, it's an inexcusable action. Even if the actions are very comparable.

Day-V
11-04-2010, 05:39 PM
Found this in another thread.


Seriously, I truly think some of you could wake up in an alternate universe with Brad Pitt's looks and Bill Gates bank account, and instead of going out and enjoying life you'd probably sit around and complain all day. Why? Because you ALWAYS need to find something to cry, ***** or moan about.

Why does this story tick you off so much? i'm not one to throw around "hypocrisy" but I mean, come on....

oxxo
11-04-2010, 05:40 PM
http://newsok.com/article/3511145



This board kills me. If this was Lebron James, it would have been posted by any one of 20 people looking to call for his head for it.

Yet, it was "good guy" Kevin Durant, and so nobody cares.

I love hypocrisy.

Lebron has a long history of doing this type of stuff.
Durant does not.

Just like repeat offenders get a harsher punishment than first time offenders.

They are nowhere near the same thing.

Isn't this whole topic pretty much trolling? Trying to start a flame war?

xBulletproof
11-04-2010, 05:40 PM
Except Dwight Howard was doing it for a punishment from his coach...

As I said. Lebron has a PATTERN of egotystical jerk type behavior. No one used to say anything about Lebron until it became too huge of a pattern to miss.

It's hard to consider jerk actions a habit, when they either go ignored or excused.

Sookie
11-04-2010, 05:42 PM
That can't be done after the game? Tally them up and do them the next day at practice? I don't know why that would make it okay.

This is exactly along the lines of my point. Excuses will be made for people that they want to make excuses for. For others, it's an inexcusable action. Even if the actions are very comparable.

If Lebron's coach wanted him to do pushups if he missed free throws, then I wouldn't have a problem with him doing pushups. Dwight was off to the side not bothering anyone. He wasn't showing off or belittling the other team.

But as others have said, you've clearly made up your mind for us, and there's no point in talking about it. As you won't even take into consideration what other's are saying.

So how about this. Lebron has repeatedly acted like a jerk. Durant has not. That's why no one says much. Let Durant act like a jerk twenty times, and things will start being said..Lebron used to be a "good guy" until he stopped acting like one.

pacer4ever
11-04-2010, 05:42 PM
he is mad he has play last **** the last 2gms

xBulletproof
11-04-2010, 05:53 PM
Found this in another thread.



Why does this story tick you off so much? i'm not one to throw around "hypocrisy" but I mean, come on....

They were calling Paul George an idiot, or similar things and throwing a fit about something they didn't even understand. That is going out of your way and looking for something to complain about. Not what I did.

I've in the past purposely pointed out things, over and over again that players do that Lebron would be ripped a new one for. Yet they constantly get looked over, and excuses made for. Just like this. I just felt like pointing it out this time before everyone ignored it. Now everyone's all upset about it.

Truth hurts sometimes, I suppose.

QuickRelease
11-04-2010, 05:57 PM
http://newsok.com/article/3511145



This board kills me. If this was Lebron James, it would have been posted by any one of 20 people looking to call for his head for it.

Yet, it was "good guy" Kevin Durant, and so nobody cares.

I love hypocrisy.People tend to have an easier time handling frustration than they do arrogance.

SMosley21
11-04-2010, 06:03 PM
Your frustrations might be coming from the fact that you spent an entire afternoon watching ESPN. Go outside, get some air, maybe talk to a friend, any number of things would work really. No need to try and dog a gaggle of people that you don't even know.

xBulletproof
11-04-2010, 06:20 PM
Oh I'm calm. I'm just pointing it out.

What happens on the internet effects little more than what I type. If you carry this stuff around with you in your personal life you'll be one miserable *******. Just like people who carry their job home with them.

Stryder
11-04-2010, 07:10 PM
Is this really earth shattering? People who are well liked tend to catch breaks and get the benefit of the doubt.

Basketball Fan
11-04-2010, 07:14 PM
http://newsok.com/article/3511145



This board kills me. If this was Lebron James, it would have been posted by any one of 20 people looking to call for his head for it.

Yet, it was "good guy" Kevin Durant, and so nobody cares.

I love hypocrisy.



Speaking as someone who doesn't care about Durant or LeBron I agree there is a double standard and that's why the media is to never be taken seriously. They're an entity of d-bags that have created the story before it was ever told and will make sure its told the way they want it for the all might $$$.

All I suggest is to just not take it seriously.

SoupIsGood
11-05-2010, 11:50 AM
Give Durant a few more years of success and there will be plenty of people who are "sick of him" willing to tear him down.

Most people are enamored with initial success. Sustained success bores them, induces envy.

SMosley21
11-05-2010, 01:22 PM
Give Durant a few more years of success and there will be plenty of people who are "sick of him" willing to tear him down.

Most people are enamored with initial success. Sustained success bores them, induces envy.

It's called the 50 Cent principle

Basketball Fan
11-05-2010, 08:44 PM
It's called the 50 Cent principle



Actually no because we're talking about people who are actually talented in their profession.

Dr. Awesome
11-05-2010, 09:00 PM
Except Dwight Howard was doing it for a punishment from his coach...

As I said. Lebron has a PATTERN of egotystical jerk type behavior. No one used to say anything about Lebron until it became too huge of a pattern to miss.

Don't use logic, trolls don't understand it.

Lamar Mundane
11-05-2010, 11:42 PM
I've seen them discuss it on ESPN all afternoon. At least 4 or 5 different times.

The hypocrisy thing is mainly because Durant is lauded on this board as the "good guy", and most everyone loves him. Many, many people on here would throw a fit if Lebron did anything remotely close to it. It's the same as Dwight Howard doing push ups DURING a game the other day, and nobody cares. Let that be Lebron and it's reason to throw a fit as well. Just like when he danced on the sidelines during a game.

Nobody needs to state an opinion. I'm already fairly sure it's "all good", in fact he was probably justified in acting this way. Why? It's Durant.

So just to cut to the chase, you're a huge LeBron fan and are a bit jealous of the recent positive attention KD has gotten (which he absolutely deserves) juxtaposed with the negative attention your main man LBJ has gotten (also well deserved)?

King Tuts Tomb
11-06-2010, 01:43 AM
http://newsok.com/article/3511145



This board kills me. If this was Lebron James, it would have been posted by any one of 20 people looking to call for his head for it.

Yet, it was "good guy" Kevin Durant, and so nobody cares.

I love hypocrisy.

I agree with you that LeBron was judged unfairly by the media and it was especially lame the way Durant was used as a bludgeon in that process. But it swings both ways and we shouldn't bash Durant needlessly either.

Sooner of later the sports world will grow bored with Durant and find a way to tear him down. Come back to this board in three years and half the KD fans will have tossed him overboard in the hunt for a new golden boy.

xBulletproof
11-06-2010, 10:47 AM
So just to cut to the chase, you're a huge LeBron fan and are a bit jealous of the recent positive attention KD has gotten (which he absolutely deserves) juxtaposed with the negative attention your main man LBJ has gotten (also well deserved)?

You'd be wrong. I like Kevin Durant as well. In fact the year he was drafted I said I'd have taken him over Oden and I was called a fool for that several times. So quite honestly I love that he's succeeding. Makes me look smart. lol

I just think nearly every athlete is guilty of what Lebron is singled out for.

Someone else said here that frustration is accepted over arrogance ...... But when Lebron was "frustrated" and out of that same emotion he walked off the floor without shaking players hands, he was a jackass who was classless and rude. Yet Durant was just as rude to those reporters doing their jobs. No matter, it was someone besides lebron. It's fine. I just can't stand double standards.

Hicks
11-06-2010, 12:27 PM
I'm not a LeBron fan anymore, I like Durant a lot, and I don't see either feeling changing any time soon barring a drastic change in behavior from them.

I shouldn't have to explain the difference between the two's behavior/attitudes.

King Tuts Tomb
11-06-2010, 02:57 PM
I'm not a LeBron fan anymore, I like Durant a lot, and I don't see either feeling changing any time soon barring a drastic change in behavior from them.

I shouldn't have to explain the difference between the two's behavior/attitudes.

Their attitude has been remarkably similar: "I want to play basketball with people I like, who are good at basketball." Durant has defended LeBron because he understands the reality of the league that fans don't.

The difference between the two is that LeBron has been around longer. In four years time, you'll have found some flaw in Durant to criticize, and some new basketball prodigy will have been anointed for everyone to fawn over.

Hicks
11-06-2010, 03:52 PM
That isn't taking everything into consideration, and you're painting with a broad brush. I'll leave it at that because I lack the time, willingness, or energy to pull it all up, write about it, and then argue about it.

King Tuts Tomb
11-06-2010, 08:31 PM
That isn't taking everything into consideration, and you're painting with a broad brush. I'll leave it at that because I lack the time, willingness, or energy to pull it all up, write about it, and then argue about it.

The LeBron equals bad guy, Durant equals good guy trope is about as broad a brush you can paint with.

And I agree that you shouldn't waste the time with your anti-LeBron argument. If it's as unconvincing as last time you'd be wasting both our time.

Hicks
11-07-2010, 01:25 AM
The LeBron equals bad guy, Durant equals good guy trope is about as broad a brush you can paint with.

And I agree that you shouldn't waste the time with your anti-LeBron argument. If it's as unconvincing as last time you'd be wasting both our time.

:rolleyes: Alright, fine:

You mean when I criticized him for walking out after the loss to Orlando two years ago? Or when he seemed to not be trying hard versus Boston last year? Perhaps the dickish manner in which he decided to move on in free agency on ESPN (not to say him leaving in-and-of-itself was bad or wrong)?

Let me know when Durant does even one of those things in a similar manner as LeBron did. There's no convincing to be done; he either did all three, or there is at the very least the appearance that he did (rightly or wrongly), and they all looked bad to the vast majority of people (including me, and I'm not saying that necessarily means we're right, but I happen to believe we are seeing it correctly), and it's how they all looked that gave him his bad reputation. Particularly 'The Decision'.

None of this means I think he's a war criminal or anything. Neither one of them is a bad person as far as I'm concerned or as far as I know. But I definitely prefer Durant, and his 'newness' is not why. I like both of their games; they're both fun to watch, but one sometimes acts like a dick, and I've yet to see the other do so IMO. That's all.

Some of you rush to his defense as if he'll be dragged to hell if you don't speak up for him or something. He's fine. We can have our opinion on the man without anyone telling us how we feel or why.

King Tuts Tomb
11-07-2010, 02:51 AM
:rolleyes: Alright, fine:

You mean when I criticized him for walking out after the loss to Orlando two years ago? Or when he seemed to not be trying hard versus Boston last year? Perhaps the dickish manner in which he decided to move on in free agency on ESPN (not to say him leaving in-and-of-itself was bad or wrong)?


Of those three, the Magic series was the worst. I've written on this board in detail about the Boston series and how little the conventional wisdom squares with the facts. The Decision wasn't dickish in the least. I've yet to hear a cogent explanation of why it was so bad (and I don't mean "He stabbed Cleveland in the back!!!!")

These do not add up to dickishness. They add up to a human, who's done things differently than you would.



Let me know when Durant does even one of those things in a similar manner as LeBron did. There's no convincing to be done; he either did all three, or there is at the very least the appearance that he did (rightly or wrongly), and they all looked bad to the vast majority of people (including me, and I'm not saying that necessarily means we're right, but I happen to believe we are seeing it correctly), and it's how they all looked that gave him his bad reputation. Particularly 'The Decision'.


If the majority of sports fans (and ESPN) think LeBron was in the wrong, then I know he's done something right. The sports industry rewards self-subjugation and punishes self-empowerment. Sports fans love to own an athlete to perform for them, but they don't want to be reminded that he's there for work. LeBron dared to spurn the industry and tell the fans "I'm not yours, I just work here."


None of this means I think he's a war criminal or anything. Neither one of them is a bad person as far as I'm concerned or as far as I know. But I definitely prefer Durant, and his 'newness' is not why. I like both of their games; they're both fun to watch, but one sometimes acts like a dick, and I've yet to see the other do so IMO. That's all.

Again, I've yet to hear a good reason that LeBron is a "dick." Your rationale is spotty and incompatible. I'd like to hear a list of other athletes you put in the Durant category of people you root for. Do they all have to pass the good guy test? If they slip-up are they immediately placed on the "dick-list" never to return?

The reason I rush to defend LeBron so often is this fantasy that he's committed crimes against Cleveland is so prevailing (and ignorant) that I can't help but argue against it.


Some of you rush to his defense as if he'll be dragged to hell if you don't speak up for him or something. He's fine. We can have our opinion on the man without anyone telling us how we feel or why.

Yet you rush to criticize him as if the world will end if you don't tear the man down. As for having your opinion "without anyone telling us how we feel or why," sure you can have an opinion, but if you're expressing it on a message board aren't you asking for it to be debated? Or would you prefer a board of people who think the exact same way?

Day-V
11-07-2010, 03:42 AM
Yet you rush to criticize him as if the world will end if you don't tear the man down.

FWIW, Before this thread, I have yet to see Hicks criticize LeBron in such detail.

And I don't think he's "rushed" to criticize him when he's making examples of his disdain for the dude that dates back over 2 years.

King Tuts Tomb
11-07-2010, 04:24 AM
FWIW, Before this thread, I have yet to see Hicks criticize LeBron in such detail.

And I don't think he's "rushed" to criticize him when he's making examples of his disdain for the dude that dates back over 2 years.

I meant "you" more generally meaning "all of you criticizing LeBron for the Decision," not only Hicks, but I didn't make that clear enough.

And the reason I argue with Hicks about this is he's one of the few LeBron criticizers who can coherently make an defend a point. I wouldn't waste my time with it if he didn't have anything interesting to say.

Basketball Fan
11-07-2010, 12:44 PM
Of those three, the Magic series was the worst. I've written on this board in detail about the Boston series and how little the conventional wisdom squares with the facts. The Decision wasn't dickish in the least. I've yet to hear a cogent explanation of why it was so bad (and I don't mean "He stabbed Cleveland in the back!!!!")

These do not add up to dickishness. They add up to a human, who's done things differently than you would.



If the majority of sports fans (and ESPN) think LeBron was in the wrong, then I know he's done something right. The sports industry rewards self-subjugation and punishes self-empowerment. Sports fans love to own an athlete to perform for them, but they don't want to be reminded that he's there for work. LeBron dared to spurn the industry and tell the fans "I'm not yours, I just work here."



Again, I've yet to hear a good reason that LeBron is a "dick." Your rationale is spotty and incompatible. I'd like to hear a list of other athletes you put in the Durant category of people you root for. Do they all have to pass the good guy test? If they slip-up are they immediately placed on the "dick-list" never to return?

The reason I rush to defend LeBron so often is this fantasy that he's committed crimes against Cleveland is so prevailing (and ignorant) that I can't help but argue against it.



Yet you rush to criticize him as if the world will end if you don't tear the man down. As for having your opinion "without anyone telling us how we feel or why," sure you can have an opinion, but if you're expressing it on a message board aren't you asking for it to be debated? Or would you prefer a board of people who think the exact same way?




For me the Decision was a punk move not because he did this on national TV it was soo unnecessary for me I don't care that he went to the Heat his career I mean who am I to tell him where he should go? He fulfilled his contract and exercised his right as an FA but there was no need to make a decision special over it.

Granted Cleveland would've hated the fact he left regardless but there wouldn't be nearly as much of a backlash had he just released a statement saying he was going to the Heat.

Hicks
11-07-2010, 01:32 PM
Of those three, the Magic series was the worst. I've written on this board in detail about the Boston series and how little the conventional wisdom squares with the facts. The Decision wasn't dickish in the least. I've yet to hear a cogent explanation of why it was so bad (and I don't mean "He stabbed Cleveland in the back!!!!")

These do not add up to dickishness. They add up to a human, who's done things differently than you would.



If the majority of sports fans (and ESPN) think LeBron was in the wrong, then I know he's done something right. The sports industry rewards self-subjugation and punishes self-empowerment. Sports fans love to own an athlete to perform for them, but they don't want to be reminded that he's there for work. LeBron dared to spurn the industry and tell the fans "I'm not yours, I just work here."



Again, I've yet to hear a good reason that LeBron is a "dick." Your rationale is spotty and incompatible. I'd like to hear a list of other athletes you put in the Durant category of people you root for. Do they all have to pass the good guy test? If they slip-up are they immediately placed on the "dick-list" never to return?

The reason I rush to defend LeBron so often is this fantasy that he's committed crimes against Cleveland is so prevailing (and ignorant) that I can't help but argue against it.



Yet you rush to criticize him as if the world will end if you don't tear the man down. As for having your opinion "without anyone telling us how we feel or why," sure you can have an opinion, but if you're expressing it on a message board aren't you asking for it to be debated? Or would you prefer a board of people who think the exact same way?

Let me ask you this:

1) Do you agree or disagree that there are legitimate alternative points of view on LeBron James and his past behavior besides the one that you, yourself have?

2) Are you someone who is ever, anywhere in life, not just in sports, rubbed the wrong way by the appearance (to you) of someone else's over-inflated ego?

3) Do you or have you ever personally felt any significant emotional attachment to players/teams/franchises in any of the major pro sports? Why or why not?

4) What would a pro athlete have to do to make you not care for them on the court?

5) What would a pro athlete have to do to make you not care for them off the court?

6) Approximately (a percentage) how many fans of the NBA are there that you honestly feel care about any given players's sense of self-subjugation or self-empowerment?

xBulletproof
11-07-2010, 01:47 PM
Don't use logic, trolls don't understand it.

:laugh:

Yes, us trolls is be too stupid to understand anything goods.

Funny bit is, and correct me if I'm wrong .... isn't a troll someone who just tries to do nothing but annoy other people? If so, doesn't that qualify the quoted post I have here.... wait, isn't that the troll finger pointer extraordinaire? It sure is! You added nothing to the discussion, just a jab at the expense of others. I'm pretty sure that qualifies you for the inability to comprehend logic as well, according to you even. And we're all aware that's as good as Gold, right? :happydanc Of course I could be wrong, mainly because as long as I've been using message boards I haven't seen the term "troll" since I was on the GameFAQs boards as a teenager talking to pre-teen freaks defending their video game systems like their lives depended on it back in the 90's.

So the next time you feel like calling someone else a name, and making yourself guilty of the very same thing you're accusing others of at the same time in the process (very good job, by the way) ..... do like Archie Bunker says when he talks to the Dingbat, and do us both a favor, and "stifle yourself" mmmkay? ;)

King Tuts Tomb
11-07-2010, 02:41 PM
Let me ask you this:

1) Do you agree or disagree that there are legitimate alternative points of view on LeBron James and his past behavior besides the one that you, yourself have?

Obviously I agree. Isn't that why we come to the board, to debate our opinions and test whether they hold up to logic and reason?

Your POV on LeBron is just as valid as mine.


2) Are you someone who is ever, anywhere in life, not just in sports, rubbed the wrong way by the appearance (to you) of someone else's over-inflated ego?

It depends. Inflated egos are almost a necessity for creative people (and basketball players are as close as sports comes to artists). I excuse some of the hubris of a Kanye West or a John Lennon or a Lil Wayne because I understand that it's part of what makes them creative.

LeBron is cocky, no doubt, but it doesn't exceed the normal cockiness of a professional athlete or artist.


3) Do you or have you ever personally felt any significant emotional attachment to players/teams/franchises in any of the major pro sports? Why or why not?

Absolutely. But it's a realistic emotional attachment. I don't expect a player to stay on my team forever. I expect him to play while he has a contract, then make the correct decision for himself. And after a player leaves the Pacers I wish him the best.


4) What would a pro athlete have to do to make you not care for them on the court?

Be boring


5) What would a pro athlete have to do to make you not care for them off the court?

Be boring, commit a serious crime


6) Approximately (a percentage) how many fans of the NBA are there that you honestly feel care about any given players's sense of self-subjugation or self-empowerment?

I was referring to the sports industry, by that I mean teams and leagues.

Hicks
11-07-2010, 03:59 PM
I come here just to talk/discuss sports. I don't view it as 'testing' anybody. I may disagree or agree, but I don't frame it the same way that you do.

In this case, I'm not trying to attack or challenge, but when I feel I'm being lumped in with the 'LeBron haters', I feel the urge to speak up for myself and also to distinguish myself from the guys who get bent out of shape over minutiae.

I don't get you when you try to glue creativity and cockiness together, and for that matter I'm not a big believer in the alleged creativity of a ball player in general.

I agree with you on understanding when a player chooses to move someplace else in free agency; that's his call.

Regarding the sports industry, that has never been what I was talking about. I'm speaking only of fans.

Speaking for me, as a fan of the game of basketball, I personally don't appreciate it when I see something I consider to be poor sportsmanship or when I think I see a player intentionally underperform. That is why I have a problem with the Orlando and Boston stuff, and I don't think we have anything to discuss here because it amounts to personal interpretations. We may as well bicker over which color is the best in the crayon box.

Going back to 'The Decision',

Yes, LeBron is "one player," but that fails to summarize it as much as it would be to refer to Michael Jordan or Wilt Chamberlain as 'one player' or 'two players.'

Imagine being a lifelong fan of a pro basketball franchise where, historically, losing was so much a part of its history that even our beloved Pacers appear to have had a better history (especially if you include the ABA Pacers).

Now imagine after a particularly crappy season, you luck out and win the NBA Lottery. But it doesn't stop there: A guy who many, many people believe will be the next huge name in pro basketball just happens to be coming out that year. But it doesn't even stop there: He's a native of the greater area of your own home team. Think Greg Oden if he were as talented and as healthy as Shaq, and the Pacers had that #1 pick.

The dream becomes reality: The native super-talent is now wearing the uniform you love to root for. Awesome.

Now a third of the way into his career, despite having a few wildly successful seasons by the standards of most franchises (60+ wins, a Finals appearance, two other runs only cut short by the eventual East champs, your best player wins two MVPs), this superstar is seriously considering leaving town.

Yes, he has the right to do it, but let's agree that nonetheless that has to really, really suck if you're a fan of that team, right? I say that to say this:

Even though that part is chalked up as "tough ****, Cleveland," it lays a foundation of hurt feelings in the fanbase, and while that's too bad it's also a very real emotion a lot of people there were feeling that we have to keep in mind.

Here's where that foundation starts to have something built on top of it:

Imagine that instead of finding out LeBron is gone the way everyone else finds out every other player is gone, which is to say in a news report, your superstar decides he needs to orchestrate an unprecedented media circus to announce his intentions. Up until now, you know he might leave, but it's still up in the air, so even at this point you're at least a tiny bit hopeful he's going to announce he's 'staying home'.

What happens? The circus ends up being an elaborate method (on live TV) of telling you and your fellow fans 'See ya! Sure, the fact that I'm from there was played up as if we had a tighter bond than most players and fans, and sure, we had a lot of good years and moments on the floor, but that's not good enough, and I'm taking my talents to greener pastures!'

I viewed that as the closest thing you can do in sports (basically) to being uncertain whether you want to stay with your childhood sweetheart of seven years, or breakup with her and move in with a new girl, and ultimately you decide to make your choice live on the local evening news.

I saw that as a huge gut punch to their fanbase.

I think a lot of people would stop first and realize doing something like that is going to be really hurtful to the one(s) left behind, and that it's probably not the best idea for that reason. And it was certainly unnecessary.

Either LeBron honest-to-God didn't consider what that would do to the fans he was leaving, or he did and he didn't care. I think he's a smart guy, and smart people are more likely to realize in advance what this would mean, and so I conclude that he just doesn't care that he did it.

And I find that rude. Personally, I do think about how my actions will make others feel, even when I don't owe those people ****, and so when I see someone take the opposite attitude, it rubs me the wrong way.

That's all it is to me. I don't hate a single person in this league. I don't believe I've ever said I hated LeBron, and I don't like being lumped in with those that do claim to hate him. I think hatred is a word that has no place in sports, and is misused often.

I think that's about as well as I can do to explain my POV on this.

King Tuts Tomb
11-07-2010, 10:03 PM
I come here just to talk/discuss sports. I don't view it as 'testing' anybody. I may disagree or agree, but I don't frame it the same way that you do.

I don't mean to test anyone personally, just testing the limits and logic of the argument.


In this case, I'm not trying to attack or challenge, but when I feel I'm being lumped in with the 'LeBron haters', I feel the urge to speak up for myself and also to distinguish myself from the guys who get bent out of shape over minutiae.

I don't lump you in as a LeBron hater. Like I said, you're one of the few people critical of LeBron who can argue your point.


I don't get you when you try to glue creativity and cockiness together, and for that matter I'm not a big believer in the alleged creativity of a ball player in general.

This is a matter of us coming to the game from different places. We like basketball for different reasons. The aesthetics of sport matter just as much as the outcome. I'd rather lose beautifully than win ugly. I understand that's only me, though. I would never discount the way anyone else enjoys the game.


Regarding the sports industry, that has never been what I was talking about. I'm speaking only of fans.

The industry and media often drive the conversation and most fans follow the talking points.


Speaking for me, as a fan of the game of basketball, I personally don't appreciate it when I see something I consider to be poor sportsmanship or when I think I see a player intentionally underperform. That is why I have a problem with the Orlando and Boston stuff, and I don't think we have anything to discuss here because it amounts to personal interpretations. We may as well bicker over which color is the best in the crayon box.

Agreed.


Going back to 'The Decision'...

...What happens? The circus ends up being an elaborate method (on live TV) of telling you and your fellow fans 'See ya! Sure, the fact that I'm from there was played up as if we had a tighter bond than most players and fans, and sure, we had a lot of good years and moments on the floor, but that's not good enough, and I'm taking my talents to greener pastures!'

I would say "Thank you LeBron for all the great things you've brought my team and city. You've transformed a moribund franchise into an internationally recognized organization, SOLELY because of you. I understand your frustration with the team and I would do the same thing probably."

And I truly mean that. However he wants to go about doing that is his choice.


I viewed that as the closest thing you can do in sports (basically) to being uncertain whether you want to stay with your childhood sweetheart of seven years, or breakup with her and move in with a new girl, and ultimately you decide to make your choice live on the local evening news.

I don't like this metaphor. Athletes are not lovers. They aren't friends. They aren't family members. If someone wants to make an athlete an object of romantic affection then they deserve the heartbreak.


I saw that as a huge gut punch to their fanbase.

He created that fanbase. These people were not Cavs fans before LeBron.


I think a lot of people would stop first and realize doing something like that is going to be really hurtful to the one(s) left behind, and that it's probably not the best idea for that reason. And it was certainly unnecessary.

Either LeBron honest-to-God didn't consider what that would do to the fans he was leaving, or he did and he didn't care. I think he's a smart guy, and smart people are more likely to realize in advance what this would mean, and so I conclude that he just doesn't care that he did it.

And I find that rude. Personally, I do think about how my actions will make others feel, even when I don't owe those people ****, and so when I see someone take the opposite attitude, it rubs me the wrong way.

But you're basing this on YOUR life. You can see immediately how your actions effect the people around you. Everything LeBron does is judged by millions of people. At a certain point a celebrity has do what's best for them and the people around them and let the public reaction be what it is.


That's all it is to me. I don't hate a single person in this league. I don't believe I've ever said I hated LeBron, and I don't like being lumped in with those that do claim to hate him. I think hatred is a word that has no place in sports, and is misused often.

I don't think you hate anybody. This is all civil debate for me, and it makes the league more interesting. I don't want everyone to think the way I do.

ChrisAndersen
11-10-2010, 01:53 PM
I think Durant is overrated quite a bit and Lebron James is definitely the catalyst. The media needed someone to be the anti-Lebron and they chose Durant as that guy. They're building Durant up now (like Lebron a few years ago) but I have no doubt they'll be tearing Durant down in a few years if his game doesn't get any better and his team has no playoff success. Durant played his media attention perfectly too...getting his teammates on the cover of Sports Illustrated with him, saying he's not even a Top 20 player, etc. He has the media and fans alike fawning all over him lol. He's making all the right moves even if they are obviously calculated.

BillS
11-10-2010, 02:13 PM
I don't like this metaphor. Athletes are not lovers. They aren't friends. They aren't family members. If someone wants to make an athlete an object of romantic affection then they deserve the heartbreak.

It's a metaphor, not an exact comparison. What do you compare being a fan of a team to? If for you it is a purely intellectual exercise, or you aren't a fan of a team so much as certain combinations of players, then I can understand why this level of involvement doesn't make sense.

It's an emotional bond with a team and, therefore, to the thing that made them strongest. To disregard that emotional bond is a poor way to treat the fans of the team. To do it on national TV, essentially publicly rubbing their noses in it, compounds the failure and makes it difficult for any statement of thanks for their support to be taken seriously.


He created that fanbase. These people were not Cavs fans before LeBron.

Really? Wow, good thing they drafted him, I don't think the Cavs could have survived with no fans.

Can we not assume that every Cavs fan is fairweather? Would that mean all of us who are Pacers fans stop having been so if we were to get a superstar?

Hicks
11-10-2010, 02:15 PM
I think Durant is overrated quite a bit and Lebron James is definitely the catalyst. The media needed someone to be the anti-Lebron and they chose Durant as that guy. They're building Durant up now (like Lebron a few years ago) but I have no doubt they'll be tearing Durant down in a few years if his game doesn't get any better and his team has no playoff success. Durant played his media attention perfectly too...getting his teammates on the cover of Sports Illustrated with him, saying he's not even a Top 20 player, etc. He has the media and fans alike fawning all over him lol. He's making all the right moves even if they are obviously calculated.

I agree that the media will eventually turn on him if he doesn't win in the playoffs. I don't think it will be the same as how LeBron is being treated (unless he does similar things to what draws LeBron negative attention now). I think it will be more like how the media treated Peyton Manning prior to the Colts winning the Super Bowl. 'Yeah, he puts up great stats, but he can't win when it counts/can't win the big one/can't get the monkey off his back.'

Basketball Fan
11-10-2010, 02:30 PM
I agree that the media will eventually turn on him if he doesn't win in the playoffs. I don't think it will be the same as how LeBron is being treated (unless he does similar things to what draws LeBron negative attention now). I think it will be more like how the media treated Peyton Manning prior to the Colts winning the Super Bowl. 'Yeah, he puts up great stats, but he can't win when it counts/can't win the big one/can't get the monkey off his back.'


You mean he isn't treated that way still?

tmhall11
11-10-2010, 02:32 PM
It's not hypocrisy... Durant is a good guy... so... everyone likes him.. so... no one is burning him for his misfortune... he isn't cocky... if he was all about himself, then it would be a different story....

King Tuts Tomb
11-10-2010, 04:01 PM
It's a metaphor, not an exact comparison. What do you compare being a fan of a team to? If for you it is a purely intellectual exercise, or you aren't a fan of a team so much as certain combinations of players, then I can understand why this level of involvement doesn't make sense.

It's an emotional bond with a team and, therefore, to the thing that made them strongest. To disregard that emotional bond is a poor way to treat the fans of the team. To do it on national TV, essentially publicly rubbing their noses in it, compounds the failure and makes it difficult for any statement of thanks for their support to be taken seriously.

It is an emotional bond, but it's not (or shouldn't be) as strong as a romantic or family attachments. I really like some basketball players and talk about them constantly. To the point where my friends and family have to tell me to shutup about Tyreke Evans or Lamar Odom. But I also understand there's a level of taking it too far and caring too much.

And I'll say it again, LeBron James didn't rub anyone's nose in anything. He's a man and he has the right to decide how he wanted to announce his decision. No one was forced to watch anything.



Really? Wow, good thing they drafted him, I don't think the Cavs could have survived with no fans.

Can we not assume that every Cavs fan is fairweather? Would that mean all of us who are Pacers fans stop having been so if we were to get a superstar?

I'd say probably 90% of Cavs fans were fair-weather. They love him for seven years then when he decides he wants to do something they don't approve of they hate him. Which probably means they never really cared about him as a person, just as a machine that plays basketball.