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vnzla81
11-04-2010, 06:29 AM
I think we officially have a leader.



http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/2010/11/04/hibbert-vents-his-frustration/



PHILADELPHIA – I knew something was up when I walked over to Roy Hibbert’s locker and he said, “I was hoping you were going to come talk to me.”

That’s when Hibbert, who is usually pretty mellow with his comments, decided to voice his frustration.

“Within two days we have become a completely different basketball team,” he said. “It was really pathetic. People have to be held accountable. We have to run the system. When we run it, we’re good. When we don’t we lose like this.”

Hibbert didn’t mention any names when talking about players being held accountable. He was upset at how the offense looked during their 26-point beat down to Philadelphia.

“We went away from what we did last game to win the game,” he said. “We didn’t play tough. Last time we were throwing it in, cutting and moving.

“I felt like we came down, the ball wasn’t getting passed. It wasn’t getting reversed. We just shot quick shots. We weren’t getting back in transition. We didn’t play defense at all.”

Hibbert was talking loud enough that several players nearby stopped dressing to hear what he had to say.

“We were horrible,” Hibbert said. “We weren’t running our sets. We weren’t getting out and running. We weren’t cutting and moving. This wasn’t Pacers basketball. I thought we just took three steps back in my opinion.”

That’s the first time in quite a while that a player has vented like that for the Pacers.

You have to give Hibbert credit for speaking up and trying to take hold of a leadership spot that has been vacant for years.

Now it’s a matter of whether his teammates will follow behind him.

BringJackBack
11-04-2010, 06:37 AM
It's refreshing to hear that Roy feels exactly how I feel about last night.

Mackey_Rose
11-04-2010, 06:50 AM
I've given Granger major props for the way he has played offensively up to last night, his defense has still been kind of offensive, but at least he has been aggressive trying to get to the rim and his shot selection has been much improved.

Last night, he reverted back to the Granger we saw most of last season. Not a good thing. I think this was probably just a bad game, and there doesn't need to be too much made of it, but I definitely hope Granger's play offensively doesn't carry over beyond last night.

ballism
11-04-2010, 07:17 AM
This made me like Hibbert even more.

sportfireman
11-04-2010, 07:19 AM
I like that Roy is speaking up, someone needs to speak up and be a leader. Danny is a lil too quiet spoken IMO. A locker room leader needs to be vocal. In the words of Bill Walton "Throw It Down Big Fella!"

Will Galen
11-04-2010, 07:30 AM
I've given Granger major props for the way he has played offensively up to last night, his defense has still been kind of offensive, but at least he has been aggressive trying to get to the rim and his shot selection has been much improved.

Last night, he reverted back to the Granger we saw most of last season. Not a good thing. I think this was probably just a bad game, and there doesn't need to be too much made of it, but I definitely hope Granger's play offensively doesn't carry over beyond last night.

I thought it was one of his worst games ever. It was like he just woke up after sleeping 10 hours and was tossed out on the basketball court. He and the rest of the Pacers just seemed slow to react the whole night.

The Pacers will probably have another game like this before the season is over, but conversely they will be on the other end of the stick and blow some teams away too.

Kstat
11-04-2010, 07:45 AM
“Within two days we have become a completely different basketball team,” he said. “It was really pathetic. People have to be held accountable. We have to run the system. When we run it, we’re good. When we don’t we lose like this.”

Someone get me Hibbert's gamertag....

idioteque
11-04-2010, 07:46 AM
I have a feeling Hibbert is going to get the max in a couple of years under the new CBA and no one is even going to blink. He'll probably deserve every penny.

MTM
11-04-2010, 08:40 AM
The key to whether Hibbert is really going to be the team's "leader" is whether the other players respect and defer to him in these situations. It also means the next game after he pops off, he better go out and have a monster game.

McKeyFan
11-04-2010, 08:47 AM
If Roy was the only player with a positive +/- , why did he only play 27 minutes?

:whoknows:

pacer4ever
11-04-2010, 08:50 AM
If Roy was the only player with a positive +/- , why did he only play 27 minutes?

:whoknows:

JOB is retarted phila has no big who can guard him i dont know why he only play 27 mins

bellisimo
11-04-2010, 08:51 AM
its always rough when a team has this much downtime after having some sort of a momentum from their previous games.

everything was pretty much set up for the downfall of the Pacers last night (on the road, playing against a hungry winless team, taking the competition lightly due to their record, having one too many days off, etc) - and it happened. I would've been more shocked if we had came out and crushed them.

As long as they can recover from it - no need to hit the bottom low and ask to trade everyone on the roster...

I remember a few years back, when Larry Bird was the head coach of the Pacers, and we had a losing record when the game was decided by 5pts or less...Kenny Smith had made a comment about how if the game is decided by less than 5pts, then it falls under the coaches' matchups/etc while if a team gets blownout - then the players just did not come to play.

I tend to agree with that.

BRushWithDeath
11-04-2010, 09:57 AM
I dislike JOB as much as the next guy but this game falls squarely on the shoulders of our guards and wings.

Unclebuck
11-04-2010, 10:02 AM
The performance last night was disgusting to me. I'll blame the offense actually more than the defense. (although the defense wasn't good either, but the offense negatively impacted the defense)

The shot selection last night was beyond horrible, quick shots, well defended shots - that was really bad. The players still don't trust the offense and their teammates. And I blame Granger the most, because first of all he took many terrible shots, but he is the offensive leader and he often sets the tone.

Through the first week of the season I have been harping on the pacers halfcourt offense. When they run their system, when they are patient, when they trust the system and each other - they are really good offensively - but last night they did none of that.

The Sixers defense was good though and they played very well overall, and likely would have beaten the pacers anyway last night, but no excuse to be blown out like that.

I agree, I blame the gaurds and the wings - they set the tone, and Collison wasn't much better than Granger

vnzla81
11-04-2010, 10:14 AM
I blame this lost on the guards also, Danny kind of quit the game in the second quarter, there was one play were he was blocked by Iguadola and did not even bother to get back to play D, does anybody else here think that almost everytime Iguadola was guarding Danny he was forcing a shot? It seems to me like he was trying to stick it to Iguadola for replacing him in the world Championship.

Brad8888
11-04-2010, 10:18 AM
First off, great for Hibbert! He gets it, whether anyone else invloved with the Pacers franchise does or not.

Thankfully Hibbert is aware of these facts, and is willing to call out others after such an awful performance. He was embarrassed about the Pacers performance, and rightfully so.

I also hope Jim O'Brien heard him. When a player is harping on what was obvious for an entire game to the level that Hibbert did, the coach failed to lead, plain and simple. Maybe O'Brien was focused on reconnecting with his friends and family while he was in Philly, because he certainly had no clue what was going on during the course of this game.

I think that what we saw was a tremendously immature team with no leadership, on the sidelines or the court, get its head handed to it by one of the worst teams in the league. Of all things, I think they, both the players AND O'Brien, believed that their 2-1 record somehow indicated that they are much better than they actually are, and that they are somehow proficient decision makers who can freelance. Obviously, nothing could be further from the truth.

Collison needs about 3 more of these games, and a benching, to realize that he needs to be aware that there are other players on the court who are often in better positions to score than he is. Ford even outplayed him significantly.

I would have Collison spend about 3 hours watching video of himself so far as a Pacer, if his attention span is that long, and drill into him why his method of play is so bad for this franchise...

But wait, that's right! Collison is playing the game exactly the way that every other point guard who has come here in the past has played, while being more proficient in the PnR than others before him have been despite having no one else on the floor capable of setting screens. That could not possibly have anything to do with our esteemed and peerless leader Jim O'Brien, could it?

I realize that it is a lot to ask for a team to have a third available point guard on the active roster for occasions such as last night, especially when the inactive player is a better point guard than the starter despite having the same tenure in the league, but c'mon Jim, throw us a bone, will ya? Of course you won't, just thought I'd ask...

I have absolutely no idea what could have been wrong with Danny. Of course, the same thought applies to pretty much everyone else not named McRoberts or Hibbert, with even Solo looking decent, and Posey not looking atrocious by comparison for the first time during the regular season. Maybe Rush hosted a team party at the hotel the night before the game to celebrate his nearing return to the starting lineup?

Well, at least we have that difficult game out of the way, and the schedule begins to become more favorable and forgiving.

You know, in retrospect, I may actually be somewhat OK that this happened. If we get a few more like these in succession in the near future, maybe the Pacers will go ahead and bite the bullet and spend the rest of the taxpayer money on an upgrade in the coaching staff to match the fancy new ribbon light boards around the Fieldhouse...

dohman
11-04-2010, 10:21 AM
We are a shooting team. When your shot does not fall loses like this really hurt because they are blowouts.

Players get frustrated during the game and the offense turns into a chuck fest because players try to get stuff going.

Speed
11-04-2010, 10:21 AM
It was a collective fail, I agree. Selfish offensively, sputtering indifference on defense.

Troubling trend too is when Roy goes out, the team looks like a completely different team, poor energy, poor teamwork.

Only time all year they were okay without him was in the home opener when TH and JMac were in there together.

Live to fight another day, I guess.

Roy is worth his weight in gold with his lockeroom statements. If his teammates don't take notice of it, that's on them in my book.

Oh ya, can we get Dunleavy to follow his shot. I know that's old school and maybe doesn't follow today's player, but he left 4 shots short that if he even made a minor effort to go after they were his.

Also on Mike, when he went out of the game the movement came to a screeching halt. Now when he came back, he just joined the chuck fest, but still, I thought it was quite noticeable the impact he has on the flow of the offense.

One more thing Roy on the floor for a loose ball twice, no one came to him for a pass to help him out. Nice job guys, not only don't hustle for the loose ball, but don't even help the guy who did.

Agreed big Roy, that's not Pacers basketball.

On to Milwaukee.

McKeyFan
11-04-2010, 10:25 AM
Oh ya, can we get Dunleavy to follow his shot. I know that's old school and maybe doesn't follow today's player, but he left 4 shots short that if he even made a minor effort to go after they were his.
.

I noticed that too.

Unclebuck
11-04-2010, 10:26 AM
. Maybe O'Brien was focused on reconnecting with his friends and family while he was in Philly, because he certainly had no clue what was going on during the course of this game.



I want to address the part I put in bold. And I am not narrowly discussing this in regards to O'Brien. More of coaching and coaches in general.

Brad you say, the coach had no clue what was going on during the course of the game. How did you arrive at that conclusion? Is that because he was unable to change it during the course of the game? I think Jim was trying to, from what Stacey reported he said in the huddles, to Jim trying to play different players, trying D. Jones - Looked to me Jim tried everything he could during the game, short of benching all the players.

What could the coach have done during the course of the game

Speed
11-04-2010, 10:28 AM
We are a shooting team. When your shot does not fall loses like this really hurt because they are blowouts.

Players get frustrated during the game and the offense turns into a chuck fest because players try to get stuff going.

Agreed, but they need to learn to not try to be a hero. It goes back to the trust thing mentioned. Trust each other, trust the system.

Speed
11-04-2010, 10:29 AM
Ya Obie didn't have any bullets left in the chamber on this one. You can't bench everyone.

count55
11-04-2010, 10:32 AM
Ya Obie didn't have any bullets left in the chamber on this one. You can't bench everyone.

He had one bullet left...

http://twitter.com/#!/toothpicksray/status/29620346076


O'Brien should consider shooting one of the #Pacers at half time - leave the body on bench as a lesson to the others #Bunkmoreland

McKeyFan
11-04-2010, 10:39 AM
One bullet didn't get to dress: AJ.

avoidingtheclowns
11-04-2010, 10:41 AM
He had one bullet left...

http://twitter.com/#!/toothpicksray/status/29620346076


I find the recent violent themes in your posts both hilarious and terrifying.

Brad8888
11-04-2010, 10:41 AM
I want to address the part I put in bold. And I am not narrowly discussing this in regards to O'Brien. More of coaching and coaches in general.

Brad you say, the coach had no clue what was going on during the course of the game. How did you arrive at that conclusion. Just a second

When the offense stagnated and Philadelphia's defense wasn't that different from what we saw the previous game, most coaches would have called timeouts in an effort to tell the players to make the extra pass and play with control, and not simply take the first open shot. That didn't happen.

When the ball failed to find the post with Roy in scoring position for numerous possessions, most coaches would have called a timeout and told the players to not only throw the extra pass, but to move without the ball in an effort to break down the defense, pass the ball from side to side, and find Roy in the paint. That didn't happen.

When the game turned into such a chuck-fest that even our announcers, in the first half (early in the second quarter, I think), expressed concern about no player or ball movement and the stagnation in the offense, most coaches who have had teams that have had that problem for three years would have some sort of backup plan that they can go to in an effort to change that. That didn't happen, because the system and pregame plan is more important than what actually happens on the court.

The problem is, O'Brien changed players, not strategy. He had no contingency plan, such as telling his players to pass more, shoot less, and use ball and player movement to facilitate feeding Hibbert and McRoberts in the post.

Hopefully this is more clear and succinct than many of my ramblings regarding O'Brien. Our young team needs a coach. Games like this are very illustrative in my opinion.

count55
11-04-2010, 10:43 AM
I find the recent violent themes in your posts both hilarious and terrifying.

This makes me smile.

Wanna see?:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_tbbBo5gDRlg/SxUHFEDpJ6I/AAAAAAAAAuo/VAQWO-ZBv9k/s1600/fmji9.jpeg

MagicRat
11-04-2010, 10:44 AM
Danny needs to re-read @mikewellsnba's article from yesterday morning. Last night he seemed to have forgotten what he said about trying not to take so many challenged shots......

Unclebuck
11-04-2010, 10:55 AM
When the offense stagnated and Philadelphia's defense wasn't that different from what we saw the previous game, most coaches would have called timeouts in an effort to tell the players to make the extra pass and play with control, and not simply take the first open shot. That didn't happen.



How in the world do you have any idea of the coach did or didn't do during timeouts. The one report from Stacey Paetz, if I remember correctly indicated that Jim was telling his players just that. Common sense, what else would Jim have been talking about.

I know you have no respect for Jim, but really, it almost seems as though you might be suggesting that Jim wanted all those bad shots?

Edit: I mean if you want to say that Jim was unable to get his players to run the offense, be patient, trust each other and the system. OK I agree with that, but to suggest that he either wanted them to play like that or that he was unwilling to try and get them to play the right way, I just think is not correct.

Dr. Hibbert
11-04-2010, 11:01 AM
Hibbert is becoming the leader (pending consistent results on the floor, as MTM aptly pointed out) that I always hoped Granger would become.

vnzla81
11-04-2010, 11:06 AM
Another thing, can anybody explain to me WTF was TJ doing yesterday playing hurt and limping during the whole game? He did not have any lift to even get a lay up.

Dunleavy was also horrible, thanks god we only got one more game to finally see Rush.

By the way the only players that did a decent job yesterday were the big guys.

jhondog28
11-04-2010, 11:07 AM
It was a collective fail, I agree. Selfish offensively, sputtering indifference on defense.

Troubling trend too is when Roy goes out, the team looks like a completely different team, poor energy, poor teamwork.

Only time all year they were okay without him was in the home opener when TH and JMac were in there together.

Live to fight another day, I guess.

Roy is worth his weight in gold with his lockeroom statements. If his teammates don't take notice of it, that's on them in my book.

Oh ya, can we get Dunleavy to follow his shot. I know that's old school and maybe doesn't follow today's player, but he left 4 shots short that if he even made a minor effort to go after they were his.

Also on Mike, when he went out of the game the movement came to a screeching halt. Now when he came back, he just joined the chuck fest, but still, I thought it was quite noticeable the impact he has on the flow of the offense.
One more thing Roy on the floor for a loose ball twice, no one came to him for a pass to help him out. Nice job guys, not only don't hustle for the loose ball, but don't even help the guy who did.

Agreed big Roy, that's not Pacers basketball.

On to Milwaukee.

Watching the game this is what I noticed. For the first 8 minutes Mike was in there he didn't take one shot. He moved liek his *** was on fire trying to get open looks and drives to the basket, but Granger kept chucking up shots. When Mike gets frustrated he starts just shooting without the movement because I am sure he feels that is the only way he will get offense. It was pretty obvious.

Trophy
11-04-2010, 11:10 AM
Hopefully this won't be just talk and everyone will play much better than they did last night.

I think the core guys will step up again.

graphic-er
11-04-2010, 11:12 AM
I want to address the part I put in bold. And I am not narrowly discussing this in regards to O'Brien. More of coaching and coaches in general.

Brad you say, the coach had no clue what was going on during the course of the game. How did you arrive at that conclusion? Is that because he was unable to change it during the course of the game? I think Jim was trying to, from what Stacey reported he said in the huddles, to Jim trying to play different players, trying D. Jones - Looked to me Jim tried everything he could during the game, short of benching all the players.

What could the coach have done during the course of the game

He certainly could have specified certain set plays to get the offense going. I didn't even see that happening. So far in first 3 games and in the preseason we have seen a handful of set plays the Pacers have used on many occasions. I didn't see one of them last night.

DaveP63
11-04-2010, 11:15 AM
When the ball failed to find the post with Roy in scoring position for numerous possessions, most coaches would have called a timeout and told the players to not only throw the extra pass, but to move without the ball in an effort to break down the defense, pass the ball from side to side, and find Roy in the paint. That didn't happen.


No, but Mike Currey called one of those WTF timeouts when he saw his team backsliding. I remember thinking that this guy is on top of it. Then I remembered...The same guy they ran out of Detroit...Yep...:bs:

MTM
11-04-2010, 11:24 AM
It's game 4 - the team's first clunker. Until last night, the team has been competitive and fun to watch. I think we start demanding massive changes only when this becomes a pattern. What this means for me is that the team better show up strong next game.

Unclebuck
11-04-2010, 11:29 AM
He certainly could have specified certain set plays to get the offense going. I didn't even see that happening. So far in first 3 games and in the preseason we have seen a handful of set plays the Pacers have used on many occasions. I didn't see one of them last night.

He should have had them run more set plays because there motion offfense was not working. Maybe the motion offense gives the players too much freedom

Brad8888
11-04-2010, 11:53 AM
How in the world do you have any idea of the coach did or didn't do during timeouts. The one report from Stacey Paetz, if I remember correctly indicated that Jim was telling his players just that. Common sense, what else would Jim have been talking about.

I know you have no respect for Jim, but really, it almost seems as though you might be suggesting that Jim wanted all those bad shots?

Edit: I mean if you want to say that Jim was unable to get his players to run the offense, be patient, trust each other and the system. OK I agree with that, but to suggest that he either wanted them to play like that or that he was unwilling to try and get them to play the right way, I just think is not correct.

My point, for the sake of brevity (what a concept for me, huh?), was that when the players failed (as Roy rightly pointed out) to trust the system, or attempt to execute it in pretty much any fashion, virtually any other coach would have intervened both more frequently and effectively than O'Brien did in my view. Maybe that was just O'Brien trusting his own game management system despite it not working, at all...

I think the first non-TV timeout that was taken that you are referring to happened after the Pacers were down by more than 20, and I think that the score was about doubled by that point IIRC. O'Brien chose, for the most part, to let them play through it, and that method failed spectacularly, as it frequently has in the past.

You are right. I am not suggesting that Jim wanted the players to play the way they did, except for Collison, whose shots didn't fall. After all, O'Brien may be a bad coach, but he is not psychotic. Even I, one of his biggest detractors, don't think that.

Gamble1
11-04-2010, 12:11 PM
He should have had them run more set plays because there motion offfense was not working. Maybe the motion offense gives the players too much freedom
That sums it up for me.

I find it very hard to understand how we can field a team that is unprepared and undisciplined with 3-4 game rest. Philly was on a back to back OT loss to Washingtion and we came out like we were the 0-5 team.

JOB can have the most conditioned team in the NBA but if our players don't run his offense right then it doesn't matter. If his offense allows to much freedom which I think it does then he should recognize the players tendencies and call actual plays.

Peck
11-04-2010, 12:27 PM
When a team loses like we lost there is plenty of blame to go around.

However in this case, even though I am one of his most outspoken critics, I think Jim O'Brien was the last person to blame for the loss.

Now granted you can complain that overall and for going on four years now that he does not instill enough discipline in the offense and thus players do not really have an idea of what a good shot is vs. what is not a good shot.

But let's not forget that last night we had several shots right at the rim that just didn't go in.

In some ways I felt bad for Jim because everything we really wanted him to do he did but nothing worked. James Posey was not the first big man in off of the bench for McBob, Tyler was.

Nothing was working at the wings so he tried D. Jones.

Darren Collison was playing some of the worst off the ball defense I have ever seen in my life so he replaced him with Ford who proceded to provide missed layups and a few turnovers (however he still outplayed Collison because at least he wasn't a ball gawker)

There is one play in particular with Collison that about made me want to shoot the TV and that was early in the 1st quarter he was completely ignoring his man and watching the ball. Holliday quickly recognized this and made a quick cut to the basket to which he was rewarded with the ball an open lane and sadly a +1 because poor Solomon Jones recognized what was going on & tried to step over but got the foul. This was in NO WAY Solomon Jones fault. That was all on Collison. You can even hear someone yelling in the background DC just before this occurs trying to get his attention.

While I appreciate Roy taking charge he was not without his problems either. We could have all gotten up, gone to the restroom, made a sandwhich & microwaved some popcorn by the time he made a decision in the post when he had the ball. Also I'm not complaining because hey sometimes shots just don't drop, but he also missed 3 or 4 small hook shots that he normally would drop.

Overall though I think we are probably not giving enough credit to Philly's defense. They were everywhere and we had very few shots that were uncontested.

Oh yea I almost forgot Danny Granger was not only abysmal he was a detriment on the offensive end.

I could go over every single player that played and give you a breakdown but it would just be easier to say this. When James Posey, Solomon Jones & Dahntey Jone are the only players who played up to their abilities then this is pretty much the results you are going to get.

Blaming this one on O'Brien is, I'm sorry to say, just haters going to hate (to use the current venacular)

Sometimes you are just going to have one of those games and this was one of them.

No need to fire up the torch's or anything yet. If this becomes habbit then we'll talk

count55
11-04-2010, 12:39 PM
Darren Collison was playing some of the worst off the ball defense I have ever seen in my life so he replaced him with Ford who proceded to provide missed layups and a few turnovers (however he still outplayed Collison because at least he wasn't a ball gawker)

There is one play in particular with Collison that about made me want to shoot the TV and that was early in the 1st quarter he was completely ignoring his man and watching the ball. Holliday quickly recognized this and made a quick cut to the basket to which he was rewarded with the ball an open lane and sadly a +1 because poor Solomon Jones recognized what was going on & tried to step over but got the foul. This was in NO WAY Solomon Jones fault. That was all on Collison. You can even hear someone yelling in the background DC just before this occurs trying to get his attention.


That play prompted this tweet:


http://twitter.com/#!/toothpicksray/status/29617280906

Right now, Darren Collison is a spectacularly bad defensive player.

Trophy
11-04-2010, 01:02 PM
I really hope he owns Andrew Bogut Friday night. That should be a fun matchup.

pacer4ever
11-04-2010, 01:06 PM
I really hope he owns Andrew Bogut Friday night. That should be a fun matchup.

i doubt he owns bogut. boguts is playing really good

Trophy
11-04-2010, 01:10 PM
i doubt he owns bogut. boguts is playing really good

He did own Dwight Howard last season.

Hopefully against Bogut he plays tough defensively and is strong when taking an inside shot.

I'm looking forward to the matchup. We get to see how the new and improved Roy handles an elite center.

Unclebuck
11-04-2010, 01:12 PM
Darren Collison was playing some of the worst off the ball defense I have ever seen in my life so he replaced him with Ford who proceded to provide missed layups and a few turnovers (however he still outplayed Collison because at least he wasn't a ball gawker)

There is one play in particular with Collison that about made me want to shoot the TV and that was early in the 1st quarter he was completely ignoring his man and watching the ball. Holliday quickly recognized this and made a quick cut to the basket to which he was rewarded with the ball an open lane and sadly a +1 because poor Solomon Jones recognized what was going on & tried to step over but got the foul. This was in NO WAY Solomon Jones fault. That was all on Collison. You can even hear someone yelling in the background DC just before this occurs trying to get his attention.



That happened Saturday night as well. I won't mention which former point guard it almost reminds me of.

I thought he was supposed to be good defensively. he seems to have the quickness, but not the patience or maybe experience to stick with the team defense part of it. I don't think it is a lack of talent to play defense and i think that is one reason why Jim is willing to play Ford late in games, perhaps to motivate Collison to work on his defense

pacer4ever
11-04-2010, 01:13 PM
He did own Dwight Howard last season.

Hopefully against Bogut he plays tough defensively and is strong when taking an inside shot.

I'm looking forward to the matchup. We get to see how the new and improved Roy handles an elite center.

Bogut is an offenseive center howard is poor on offensively just an athlete on offense

Sookie
11-04-2010, 01:16 PM
In terms of what Jim O'brien could have done differently..I think the only obvious change I would have personally made would be either
1. JOB needs to have a set of three or four actual, standard plays, as a backup plan. Now, to his credit, his backup plan my be "let the PGs run PnR" but Ford isn't that good in a PnR, and we weren't getting anything out of Collison last night.

2. When we start getting in trouble, get the ball to Hibbert..repeatedly, every time down the court. In fact, this was really my only criticism. I felt like he benched Hibbert far too much. Even Hibbert at his worst is better than Solo..so just...don't bench him unless he's tired and need a break.

But overall, when Granger and Collison play as bad as they did (with Dun and TJ being equally bad, and George not having an impact on the game) We aren't going to win. Period.

I also want to stick up for Hibbert here. He missed shots, but I disagree with the decision making. Yes, he took his time..but quite frankly, the team kept giving him the ball in a bad place for him to try and score..and then they'd all stand still and stare at him..so it wasn't like he could make a play.

rock747
11-04-2010, 01:22 PM
Nice, so what did Granger have to say? ...

Trophy
11-04-2010, 01:24 PM
Nice, so what did Granger have to say? ...

No explanation is needed.

He can make up for it by playing like his usually self Friday. Everyone needs to.

Infinite MAN_force
11-04-2010, 01:27 PM
When a team loses like we lost there is plenty of blame to go around.

However in this case, even though I am one of his most outspoken critics, I think Jim O'Brien was the last person to blame for the loss.

Now granted you can complain that overall and for going on four years now that he does not instill enough discipline in the offense and thus players do not really have an idea of what a good shot is vs. what is not a good shot.

But let's not forget that last night we had several shots right at the rim that just didn't go in.

In some ways I felt bad for Jim because everything we really wanted him to do he did but nothing worked. James Posey was not the first big man in off of the bench for McBob, Tyler was.

Nothing was working at the wings so he tried D. Jones.

Darren Collison was playing some of the worst off the ball defense I have ever seen in my life so he replaced him with Ford who proceded to provide missed layups and a few turnovers (however he still outplayed Collison because at least he wasn't a ball gawker)

There is one play in particular with Collison that about made me want to shoot the TV and that was early in the 1st quarter he was completely ignoring his man and watching the ball. Holliday quickly recognized this and made a quick cut to the basket to which he was rewarded with the ball an open lane and sadly a +1 because poor Solomon Jones recognized what was going on & tried to step over but got the foul. This was in NO WAY Solomon Jones fault. That was all on Collison. You can even hear someone yelling in the background DC just before this occurs trying to get his attention.

While I appreciate Roy taking charge he was not without his problems either. We could have all gotten up, gone to the restroom, made a sandwhich & microwaved some popcorn by the time he made a decision in the post when he had the ball. Also I'm not complaining because hey sometimes shots just don't drop, but he also missed 3 or 4 small hook shots that he normally would drop.

Overall though I think we are probably not giving enough credit to Philly's defense. They were everywhere and we had very few shots that were uncontested.

Oh yea I almost forgot Danny Granger was not only abysmal he was a detriment on the offensive end.

I could go over every single player that played and give you a breakdown but it would just be easier to say this. When James Posey, Solomon Jones & Dahntey Jone are the only players who played up to their abilities then this is pretty much the results you are going to get.

Blaming this one on O'Brien is, I'm sorry to say, just haters going to hate (to use the current venacular)

Sometimes you are just going to have one of those games and this was one of them.

No need to fire up the torch's or anything yet. If this becomes habbit then we'll talk

While I agree with everything you said I don't think you can just let Jim off scott free either. When Roy Hibbert is your only player with a positive plus/minus and he only played 27 minutes there is a problem.

Roy was pulled inexplicably about 5 minutes into the game for solo and thats when things really started going to hell. He was not in foul trouble.

As has also been pointed out in this thread, Jim's tendency to let the team sink or swim when the other team is on a huge run has really not been working out. I would like to think a better coach would see the wheels falling off the bus, call a timeout, run some set plays, and try to settle things down a bit before the game gets away. That did not happen. Jim's answer to everything is to push the ball down the court, and the team just looked completely out of control for most of the first half.

That being said, most of the players played like garbage. This was a total team loss, but that includes the coaching staff as well.

Day-V
11-04-2010, 01:30 PM
Do we have any audio or video of this? Sounds like this could be some epic stuff.


Good to see this from Roy.

odeez
11-04-2010, 01:36 PM
I am proud of Roy for saying what he said. He is becoming the vocal leader of the team, and I hope he continues down this path. Too much blame to go around to put on anyone player or coach. The part the got me so upset is when we stopped going to Roy in the end of the 1st qtr and into half. The team reverted to the old ways of chucking up threes and contested jumpers. To the Sixers credit, they came ready to play and we did not. They were desperate for a win and we just had no way to stop them or get into our game. We will see how we respond when we play the Bucks, another good team that we will have to beat to take the next step.

vnzla81
11-04-2010, 01:45 PM
One thing I would say about Jim is that for some reason he had Tj playing hurt and still gave him a lot of minutes, why no play AJ? Another thing I noticed was his in game line up changes, it looks to me like he didn't know what to do, I understand that the boat is sinking but he instead of helping he made it worse?

Peck
11-04-2010, 01:46 PM
While I agree with everything you said I don't think you can just let Jim off scott free either. When Roy Hibbert is your only player with a positive plus/minus and he only played 27 minutes there is a problem.

Roy was pulled inexplicably about 5 minutes into the game for solo and thats when things really started going to hell. He was not in foul trouble.

As has also been pointed out in this thread, Jim's tendency to let the team sink or swim when the other team is on a huge run has really not been working out. I would like to think a better coach would see the wheels falling off the bus, call a timeout, run some set plays, and try to settle things down a bit before the game gets away. That did not happen. Jim's answer to everything is to push the ball down the court, and the team just looked completely out of control for most of the first half.

That being said, most of the players played like garbage. This was a total team loss, but that includes the coaching staff as well.

Hence the very first sentence in my post.

When a team loses like we lost there is plenty of blame to go around.

Even if you want to use my second line against me I want to point out the last part.

However in this case, even though I am one of his most outspoken critics, I think Jim O'Brien was the last person to blame for the loss.

While saying he was the last person to blame may sound like it is nothing it is not saying he is without blame.

I just wanted to make sure that we all didn't have the usual knee jerk reaction of saying "lol jim sux" that we sometimes do.

You can blame the system, you can blame his lack of time outs & his player substitutions if you want (in this case I don't because nothing was working) but for the most part the players were playing selfish & sloppy.

Peck
11-04-2010, 01:49 PM
One thing I would say about Jim is that for some reason he had Tj playing hurt and still gave him a lot of minutes, why no play AJ? Another thing I noticed was his in game line up changes, it looks to me like he didn't know what to do, I understand that the boat is sinking but he instead of helping he made it worse?

Look you know I've been with you about O'Brien for all three years & God knows I feel like U.B. & BillS today but I have to ask.

What could he have done differantly with his lineup changes? Nothing worked, period.

He didn't bring in Posey to start the game he brough in Tyler who proceded to produce a turd sandwhich of a game.

Hell he even tried D. Jones.

You can make a legitimate complaint about A.J. being inactive again, I get that, but I don't think he would have changed the course of the game.

vnzla81
11-04-2010, 01:56 PM
Look you know I've been with you about O'Brien for all three years & God knows I feel like U.B. & BillS today but I have to ask.

What could he have done differantly with his lineup changes? Nothing worked, period.

He didn't bring in Posey to start the game he brough in Tyler who proceded to produce a turd sandwhich of a game.

Hell he even tried D. Jones.

You can make a legitimate complaint about A.J. being inactive again, I get that, but I don't think he would have changed the course of the game.

Like I said before I'm not blaming everything on Jim, my point that TJ didn't look healthy enough to help the team and Jim still made the decision to play him big minutes, the guy was limping up and down the court how that helps the team?

Read my previous posts on this thread and you can see that I'm not just blaming this game on Jim, the players did not play hard and everybody sucked and I know that.

Sookie
11-04-2010, 02:05 PM
Like I said before I'm not blaming everything on Jim, my point that TJ didn't look healthy enough to help the team and Jim still made the decision to play him big minutes, the guy was limping up and down the court how that helps the team?

Read my previous posts on this thread and you can see that I'm not just blaming this game on Jim, the players did not play hard and everybody sucked and I know that.

Jim wants TJ in the rotation. I don't know if it's because he wants a vet, or if its because he wants to increase TJ's trade value..but he wants TJ in the rotation. If AJ plays a few games, and outplays him (or Darren) - and he was playing well, so that's plenty possible - it becomes harder not to play him. (We can obviously use excuses of "it's preseason" in preseason..kinda hard to do that in real games)

Sure, that hasn't stopped Jimmy in the past (replacing a young guy with a vet, even though the younger guy is outplaying the vet) But still, if no one sees AJ can do a better job, JOB isn't pressured to play him..particularly if Ford starts to play badly (already happening..although he's injured, so he gets a break there)

Regardless, I don't think AJ would have made a difference in this game. He's one player, and everyone played poorly...I guess you could make the argument that if AJ was there, and moving the ball. (Which might not have happened, he could have very easily joined the chuck fest. Especially since he's apparently been told to score). Dun might have as well..and the post players didn't play THAT bad..so the game might have looked better...or he could have gotten hot and knocked down a few threes. Once again..making the game look better..but in the end, I don't think one player makes a difference.

Brad8888
11-04-2010, 02:55 PM
Hyperbole Alert:

If the problem is not O'Brien, then try to get rid of everybody but Hibbert, Posey, McRoberts, and Hansbrough (though after this game he should be gone, too, because he didn't follow the system, either), and possibly Solomon Jones. They are the only players who have consistently played within the system so far this season. Good luck with that.

End Hyperbole.

Nobody else played the game in O'Brien's system. Or, could it be that they did, but were such poor decision makers that it rendered O'Brien's decision based system useless, as has been the case frequently throughout his tenure here?

If the players aren't able to, or simply won't, follow the system consistently, perhaps Paul George is right in saying "Eff it!" and saying that he is going to just start playing the game he knows, regardless of the consequences, and the other players should just follow suit and freelance, eventually figuring out on their own how to most effectively, and naturally, play basketball together, the way the majority of them probably learned to play the game.

I realize that it is folly to suggest that the players simply play without paying attention to the coaching staff, but I have been venting, yet again.

clownskull
11-04-2010, 03:03 PM
The key to whether Hibbert is really going to be the team's "leader" is whether the other players respect and defer to him in these situations. It also means the next game after he pops off, he better go out and have a monster game.

well, whether or not he has a big game is not what i am expecting. i do expect though that how much he puts into the stats area, his effort will at least back up his words- that's all anyone can or should really expect.
and i can say that from what i have seen of him, roy always brings his effort.

BringJackBack
11-04-2010, 03:09 PM
The worst part of the game, by far, was the fact that we looked like the Atlanta Hawks did in the Playoffs versus Orlando.

Iso, tough shots, yuck. Everything completely flipped from just a couple days ago.

This all starts, in my opinion, of us not getting Roy the ball in the LOW post in the first 5-6 minutes of the game. Instead we did high post and pick 'n rolls where while Roy is good at that, do what works best. Roy needs to get in his rhythm by going into the low post where he is 10x more of a threat rather than the other spots.

Danny played like last year, yuck. And TJ Ford still makes me sick.

I could make comments about every single player, but I'm not going to.

indianapolismarkus
11-04-2010, 04:35 PM
Pacers Kool-Aid winning streak cut short.

I do not see another three plus game winning streak on the horizon. That was our best chance of getting the hype machine behind us. The pitcher has been kicked over and now is just a stain.

Now every team has atleast five nights a year when they can't find the hole. Every team has atleast five nights a year when the opponent can't seem to miss. Even the 72 win Bulls lost 10 games.

What get me mad more than the game is the lack of Danny Granger quotes. Only Roy Hibbert has the balls to call out the team. If Slick wasn't sick we could've given him a hockey stick to chase the players around at half-time like he use to do with the ABA Pacers back at the old Pepsi Coliseum. That's better than JOB's quote of "sometimes you're the pounder and sometimes you're the poundee".

Jim O'Brien is tring to downplay the loss but he must be pissed. He gave the team Sunday off and worked them out hard Monday & Tuesday. He must have worked them too hard. He wants the team well conditioned but it backfired.

What happens when you run wind sprints for two strait days before a game? It seems like the Pacers legs were tired. As a whole the team couldn't shoot, move around on offence, follow their shot, run in transision or defend. Let's hope this was physical and not mental. Let's hope the players are not trying to send JOB a message.

After the Bucks game on Friday we will have another three days of inactivity. It will be interesting to see how they handle it. That will be their last chance to rest before the all-star break unless they take another game off like they did in Philly.

jeffg-body
11-04-2010, 05:22 PM
I am glad to see Roy speak up. Good for him, maybe he is that leader we need.

Kemo
11-04-2010, 05:28 PM
In terms of what Jim O'brien could have done differently..


I just wanted to respond with my own thought on this subject...


One of the OBVIOUS big things JOB could have done differently is to NOT have had Price, Stephenson and Foster on the inactive list and in suits on the end of the bench ..

I think it is pretty damn stupid not to utilize and have every player possible at one's disposal..

First of all I do NOT understand the logic of only dressing 2 point guards , playing an injured TJ Ford , while AJ rots on the bench after having "earned" the backup p.g. spot hands down in my opinion ..
It just doesn't make sense.. Even if it was to showcase TJ , why showcase him in extended minutes while injured at the detriment to the team and team chemistry and our win/loss record ?!?!?

I actually believe that Price especially could have helped us... Heck even Stephenson and Foster may have been the sparks off the bench that could have turned things around at least to where it wouldn't have been an embarassing blowout ..

I just don't understand why JOB would have all of them in suits... just don't understand it one iota ....

IMHO there should be 12 players dressed, and ready to play at a moment's notice EVERY SINGLE GAME... injuries permitted..




.

Mackey_Rose
11-04-2010, 05:33 PM
Kemo,

If Price, Foster, and Stephenson all dress, which 3 would you want to see inactive?

BillS
11-04-2010, 05:38 PM
And you could only have 11 dressed due to the team punishment for Rush.

Kemo
11-04-2010, 05:54 PM
Kemo,

If Price, Foster, and Stephenson all dress, which 3 would you want to see inactive?

Rush (suspended anyways), Posey , DJones, and/or Ford (nursing injury)


Dressed , personally I would have had..

Hibbert
McRoberts
Granger
Dunleavy
Collison

Foster
George
Hansbrough
AJ Price
Stephenson
D.Jones
S.Jones


edited to add.. now that foster has a sprained ankle , i'd sub posey in instead

Naptown_Seth
11-04-2010, 06:02 PM
If Roy was the only player with a positive +/- , why did he only play 27 minutes?

:whoknows:
I haven't looked at the +/- yet, but in general the game went like this to me:

McBob picks up foul 2, hits the bench. The game is close.

Shortly after the offense starts to grind to a halt. Roy goes out. The offense completely implodes.

Josh barely plays again in the half. Start the 3rd with Josh and Roy and they start to make a run at it. They can't get over the hump and it goes right back in the toilet.

The only positive players on the night to me were Roy, Josh, Posey and DJones. Posey's defense was what impressed me, and of course you can always count on DJones being aggressive on offense and in this case it was badly needed.

Everyone else was horrid and sleepwalking, including Collison and Dun.

Tyler was lost without good play coming off of Roy/Josh to feed on.

Solo...well this is bad enough it needs to be addressed by a mid-season acquisition.



I will say this, JOB did do some player swapping in an attempt to wake up the team, or so it appeared.

indianapolismarkus
11-04-2010, 06:07 PM
Dressed , personally I would have had.. Foster


Foster's hurt

Kemo
11-04-2010, 07:20 PM
Foster's hurt

I didnt think he was during THAT game though..

indianapolismarkus
11-04-2010, 07:48 PM
I didnt think he was during THAT game though..

Foster got hurt before the game.

ksuttonjr76
11-04-2010, 10:38 PM
Honestly and real talk, I'm not even mad at JOB. My anger is squarely on the players. When they started missing open shots and layups, the first thought I had "Uh oh. It's going to be one of those games."

In my eyes, JOB did everything possible to save the game. Players just didn't want it.

imawhat
11-04-2010, 11:20 PM
2. When we start getting in trouble, get the ball to Hibbert..repeatedly, every time down the court. In fact, this was really my only criticism. I felt like he benched Hibbert far too much. Even Hibbert at his worst is better than Solo..so just...don't bench him unless he's tired and need a break.

This. To me, we should always go to the hoop when the offense stalls. It doesn't have to be Roy. This is why I think Tyler is important for the 2nd unit.

Taterhead
11-05-2010, 02:08 AM
This is a young basketball team, what does everyone expect? There are a lot of people playing together that have little to no experience playing with one another. Give them time, we are .500 after 4 games.

What is important is that we are definitely seeing growth. Both in the wins and losses. Roy taking the reigns a little after last night is evidence of that.

thewholefnshow31
11-05-2010, 12:26 PM
This is why Hibbert has become my favorite Pacers player since Reggie retired.

As UB has pointed out a lot of this falls on Granger's shoulder. As vocal as Hibbert is he still is not the best player on this team and Granger is the one that needs to be setting the standards for this team.

When you have your best player taking poor shots, not being patient with the offense, and not really committing himself to defense the rest of the team is going to be influenced by that.

Hopefully Hibbert speaking out like this will light a fire under Granger's *** because we go as far as Granger takes us.

Mackey_Rose
11-06-2010, 11:32 AM
I've given Granger major props for the way he has played offensively up to last night, his defense has still been kind of offensive, but at least he has been aggressive trying to get to the rim and his shot selection has been much improved.

Last night, he reverted back to the Granger we saw most of last season. Not a good thing. I think this was probably just a bad game, and there doesn't need to be too much made of it, but I definitely hope Granger's play offensively doesn't carry over beyond last night.

That's now two games in a row where Granger has looked like he took a time warp back into 2009.

If he doesn't get back to playing like he did the first 3 games, we don't have a chance.