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MillerTime
10-15-2010, 09:39 AM
Pacers guard Brandon Rush excelled at the end of last season, but he appears to have found himself out of the team's rotation.

Rush will miss the first five regular-season games because he failed the NBA's mandatory drug test three times.

"It's all on me," he said. "I put myself in this position by messing up."

The third-year player has logged a total of 38 minutes in four preseason games.

He may not play anymore in the preseason because coach Jim O'Brien plans to use rotation players in the final three games.

"There are two issues," O'Brien said. "There would be the issue of where he would be in the rotation if he wasn't suspended. That is an issue separate from the suspension. He has to earn a rotation spot, number one. Number two, clearly he can't be in it the first five games so I'm thinking in terms of obviously other people.

"And depending on how the other people do in the first five games, we'll see how he fits back in."



By Mike Wells
Indy Star
http://www.indystar.com/article/20101015/SPORTS04/10150354/Out-of-rotation-out-of-sync

MillerTime
10-15-2010, 09:43 AM
I think we're better off packaging Rush in those 2 for 1 trade that we want to make.

duke dynamite
10-15-2010, 09:49 AM
Good. Get rid of him. "False Hope" should be his nickname.

Dr. Awesome
10-15-2010, 09:53 AM
I think we're better off packaging Rush in those 2 for 1 trade that we want to make.

Your thinking wrong...

dohman
10-15-2010, 10:03 AM
Can we get that two for one on djones and rush instead of soloman :)

MillerTime
10-15-2010, 10:03 AM
Your thinking wrong...

what do you mean?

Dr. Awesome
10-15-2010, 10:06 AM
I mean Rush is the best defender this team has. He is the perfect compliment to tge rest of our starters. I get it - he doesnt put up 20 points per game, that doesnt mean that he is a bad player. Defense is important, I dont understand why soooooo many people overlook that.

Trading Rush now woukd be selling low and I think everyobe here knows that. Dont ever sell low.

MillerTime
10-15-2010, 10:09 AM
I mean Rush is the best defender this team has. He is the perfect compliment to tge rest of our starters. I get it - he doesnt put up 20 points per game, that doesnt mean that he is a bad player. Defense is important, I dont understand why soooooo many people overlook that.

Trading Rush now woukd be selling low and I think everyobe here knows that. Dont ever sell low.

I think D. Jones is a better defender than Rush

I think we're able to get more back if we package Rush in the trade.

Unclebuck
10-15-2010, 10:09 AM
I mean Rush is the best defender this team has. He is the perfect compliment to tge rest of our starters. I get it - he doesnt put up 20 points per game, that doesnt mean that he is a bad player. Defense is important, I dont understand why soooooo many people overlook that.

Trading Rush now woukd be selling low and I think everyobe here knows that. Dont ever sell low.

I agree with you that defense is important and trading Rush now probably isn't at the height of his trade value.

However, I think George will be a better defender, a much better and more aggressive offensive player and just a better player overall. I think by next year at this time George and Granger will have the 2 and 3 positions locked up for years to come

jhondog28
10-15-2010, 10:20 AM
All I care about is who gives us the best chance to win. It is pretty obvious that if you cant stay on the court due to stupid mistakes then you are not giving your team the best chance to win. he may be the best defender the team has, but how is that going to help us if he gets himself suspended and is not in the game?

I am sure VNZLA will have an opinion on this thread. He is Rush's biggest supporter.

MyFavMartin
10-15-2010, 10:24 AM
I still like Rush and think he could be a very good contributor to this team. PG and DG might lock up the starting wing spots, but adding Rush to that rotation, that's pretty good.

I think Larry knows that Rush is quite talented but needs to work through some issues and he won't pull the trigger unless an offer that would improve the team came along...
I don't think those offers are going to come along until Brandon does show that he's worked through the issues.

I could see a team interested in TH and BRush if TH shows he's past the vertigo and the Pacers would want a PF to slide in with Roy, DG, PG, and DC2.

I'm not sure we know what we have with TH yet and would be hesistant to trade him or Rush.

duke dynamite
10-15-2010, 10:33 AM
I could see a team interested in TH and BRush if TH shows he's past the vertigo and the Pacers would want a PF to slide in with Roy, DG, PG, and DC2.

I'm not sure we know what we have with TH yet and would be hesistant to trade him or Rush.
I don't see us trading TH unless we were receiving a serviceable PF in return. We don't have enough bodies at that position to really play around with that spot in trade talks.

SMosley21
10-15-2010, 10:37 AM
In regards to "selling low" on Rush, it's not like his value is going to go up drastically once he's back on the court. If he has proven anything in his 2 years in the NBA, it's that he can't be depended on to be more than a role player who can occasionally break out for a 20 point game. But more times than not, he's going to give you about 6-10 points and decent defense.

TinManJoshua
10-15-2010, 10:46 AM
Can we get that two for one on djones and rush instead of soloman :)

Even though I mildly disagree on dealing Rush in the first place; IF he were to be packaged with a Jones, I would prefer it to be the other one.

Trophy
10-15-2010, 10:50 AM
He's really been a disappointment and I'd rather us play James at backup SG. He's can defend and can shoot better than Brandon.

MyFavMartin
10-15-2010, 11:03 AM
I don't see us trading TH unless we were receiving a serviceable PF in return. We don't have enough bodies at that position to really play around with that spot in trade talks.

Agreed.

But I don't see teams willing to trade really goood, young PFs very often.

MyFavMartin
10-15-2010, 11:06 AM
...If he has proven anything in his 2 years in the NBA...

So no one can improve after 2 years?

SMosley21
10-15-2010, 11:15 AM
So no one can improve after 2 years?

Brandon has all the skill needed to be a stud. Problem is, it's not his skills that need improving, it's his heart. You can't teach aggressiveness and passion. You either have it or you don't, and Brandon definitely doesn't.


And I'm not bashing on Rush because I don't like him. I have the kid's autographed jersey hanging on my wall at home for Christ's sake. I have just given in to the fact that he's never going to be what he has the potential to be, because he doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to make it happen.

Mackey_Rose
10-15-2010, 11:17 AM
In regards to "selling low" on Rush, it's not like his value is going to go up drastically once he's back on the court. If he has proven anything in his 2 years in the NBA, it's that he can't be depended on to be more than a role player who can occasionally break out for a 20 point game. But more times than not, he's going to give you about 6-10 points and decent defense.

The bolded part of your quote is the most important part. He's only been in the league 2 years!!

I don't think you can expect him to get 20 points every night. That's not the type of player he is, and not the type of player that he needs to be in order to be effective, especially as Collison, Granger, McRoberts, and Hibbert continue to grow offensively. You really undervalue his defense by calling it "decent" in my opinion. He's potentially an elite level defender in the future. He's already shown signs of being able to get there. He shoots the 3 at very high percentage.

He needs to be more aggressive and assertive offensively, I agree, but he is still young and could be an important asset to this team as the other starters get better offensively as well. You can't expect every position to have a 20 point a night guy manning it.

Dr. Awesome
10-15-2010, 11:17 AM
Anyone who watched last season knows Rush is a much better defender than Jones.

vnzla81
10-15-2010, 11:18 AM
I know I posted this in another thread but I was listening to the DD show on 1070 the fan and he was talking about how some people he knows in the Pacers organization were telling him how impressed they were about Rush this season, (it looks like he was working out with Watson in LA) they told him that he came back bigger and better, that he is more agressive and that he is shooting the ball better.(remember that the drug issue was during the season last year)

Edit: again I don't understand what many of you guys want, Danny needs the ball in his hands, Collison needs the ball in his hands, Roy needs the ball also, how many basketball are you going to play with? you want the guy to be agressive but then you complaing about DJ for been too agressive and become a black hole?

SMosley21
10-15-2010, 11:21 AM
The bolded part of your quote is the most important part. He's only been in the league 2 years!!

I don't think you can expect him to get 20 points every night. That's not the type of player he is, and not the type of player that he needs to be in order to be effective, especially as Collison, Granger, McRoberts, and Hibbert continue to grow offensively. You really undervalue his defense by calling it "decent" in my opinion. He's potentially an elite level defender in the future. He's already shown signs of being able to get there. He shoots the 3 at very high percentage.

He needs to be more aggressive and assertive offensively, I agree, but he is still young and could be an important asset to this team as the other starters get better offensively as well. You can't expect every position to have a 20 point a night guy manning it.


I'm not saying I WANT the team to trade Rush or that I expect him to drop 20 every night. I'm just saying that the whole theory of "selling low" doesn't make sense to me because he hasn't shown that his high point is that much different than right now. Teams don't give a crap that a guy got suspended for 5 games for weed, if that player's value is enough to take the "risk" on. Brandon just hasn't proven himself to hold a lot of value thus far in his career.

duke dynamite
10-15-2010, 11:24 AM
I'm not saying I WANT the team to trade Rush or that I expect him to drop 20 every night. I'm just saying that the whole theory of "selling low" doesn't make sense to me because he hasn't shown that his high point is that much different than right now. Teams don't give a crap that a guy got suspended for 5 games for weed, if that player's value is enough to take the "risk" on. Brandon just hasn't proven himself to hold a lot of value thus far in his career.
But I am.

bballpacen
10-15-2010, 11:29 AM
I'm not saying I WANT the team to trade Rush or that I expect him to drop 20 every night. I'm just saying that the whole theory of "selling low" doesn't make sense to me because he hasn't shown that his high point is that much different than right now. Teams don't give a crap that a guy got suspended for 5 games for weed, if that player's value is enough to take the "risk" on. Brandon just hasn't proven himself to hold a lot of value thus far in his career.
Some dont... Some do... In fact, most do I believe...

SMosley21
10-15-2010, 11:31 AM
Some dont... Some do... In fact, most do I believe...

see: "if that player's value is enough to take the "risk" on"

vnzla81
10-15-2010, 11:31 AM
For those that keep saying that Rush is a decent defender read this:

http://alwaysmillertime.com/2010/07/08/i-owe-brandon-rush-an-apology/

bballpacen
10-15-2010, 11:34 AM
Brandon has all the skill needed to be a stud. Problem is, it's not his skills that need improving, it's his heart. You can't teach aggressiveness and passion. You either have it or you don't, and Brandon definitely doesn't.


And I'm not bashing on Rush because I don't like him. I have the kid's autographed jersey hanging on my wall at home for Christ's sake. I have just given in to the fact that he's never going to be what he has the potential to be, because he doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to make it happen.
I agree that you cant teach passion and aggression... But I do believe that there are certain events that happen which awaken said attributes inside of a person... Could possibly be this suspension; we could see BRush playing aggressively this season b/c of it...

And it doesnt prove that you like the guy b/c you have an autographed jersey on your wall... Just sayin...

Speed
10-15-2010, 11:37 AM
Sounds like BRush is taking responsibility for his actions thats good. It also sounds like it's a bruise to his fragile ego, thats bad.

I mean, honestly, at some point you have to be able to stand up and not be scared of taking control of your own destiny.

I wouldn't cut him or trade him just to trade him. But I certainly wouldn't pick up his contract. It's an on the court/mental toughness thing at this point, for me.

Not sure a light bulb ever goes on for him. No thats the wrong way to say it. You aren't going to change his nature at this point, is probably more accurate.

OakMoses
10-15-2010, 11:38 AM
He's really been a disappointment and I'd rather us play James at backup SG. He's can defend and can shoot better than Brandon.

No. Under no circumstances should Posey play any minutes at the 2. Other than being able to hit a 3, he has 0 guard skills. He is not a better shooter than Brandon (who is the 2nd best 3 point shooter on the team behind healthy Dunleavy). Posey's also having trouble guarding 3's so far in the preseason, I don't think we want to see try and guard guys who are even quicker.

Posey at the 2 is a terrible idea, and I'd venture to guess that he'll play 0 minutes there over the course of the season.

I'm a Rush fan, but if George is close to equal right now, then we can move Rush as long as we get value in return.

Rush's situation reminds me a lot of Thabo Sefolosha when he was with the Bulls. He was a very good defender who never put up enough offense to justify his draft slot. The Bulls were patient and ended up getting a late 1st round pick for him. Now he's a starter on a very good team where no one cares that he's not an offensive dynamo.

OakMoses
10-15-2010, 11:39 AM
I should say that I still relish the prospect of seeing a Rush-George-Granger 2/3/4 combo.

Mackey_Rose
10-15-2010, 11:39 AM
But I am.

Why? You would rather take 10 cents on the dollar than keep a young potentially very good player at a position of extreme need?

I would need to see some elaboration before I could even consider understanding that.

SMosley21
10-15-2010, 11:41 AM
I agree that you cant teach passion and aggression... But I do believe that there are certain events that happen which awaken said attributes inside of a person... Could possibly be this suspension; we could see BRush playing aggressively this season b/c of it...

And it doesnt prove that you like the guy b/c you have an autographed jersey on your wall... Just sayin...

Why would someone spend $200 on an autographed jersey of a player if they didn't like that player?

Speed
10-15-2010, 11:41 AM
Also, he's a good defender, not a great defender. He doesn't have the meaness to be a great one. He has the quickness and athleticism, but without the want-to it can't happen. There's no fire in the belly in this one, I fear.

Speed
10-15-2010, 11:43 AM
Last thing for me, I guess I would pick up his option if you consider 2.9 million cheap for what he does bring. It's still a business, if you think he can be a rotation guy for that price, it sounds like a relatively good deal.

SMosley21
10-15-2010, 11:44 AM
Last thing for me, I guess I would pick up his option if you consider 2.9 million cheap for what he does bring. It's still a business, if you think he can be a rotation guy for that price, it sounds like a relatively good deal.

It's essentially the same salary as Dahntay's. I'd rather pay that for Rush that Dahntay.

vnzla81
10-15-2010, 11:45 AM
For those that keep saying that Rush is a decent defender read this:

http://alwaysmillertime.com/2010/07/08/i-owe-brandon-rush-an-apology/


Also, he's a good defender, not a great defender. He doesn't have the meaness to be a great one. He has the quickness and athleticism, but without the want-to it can't happen. There's no fire in the belly in this one, I fear.

Read this please and let me know what you think.

bballpacen
10-15-2010, 11:45 AM
see: "if that player's value is enough to take the "risk" on"
Are you implying that the reward outweigh the risks associated with BRush?? I am just curious as to why you think that, yet you would want to trade him?? Just playing devils advocate here, but dont you think that if you are correct, and teams see the rewards outweighing the risk... Then why should we trade him, and be able to benefit from the possible rewards??

duke dynamite
10-15-2010, 11:46 AM
Why? You would rather take 10 cents on the dollar than keep a young potentially very good player at a position of extreme need?

I would need to see some elaboration before I could even consider understanding that.

I don't consider the wing position to be a position of "extreme need". I would go as far as calling the PF position that, but not our wings.

We have a defensive specialist in Dahntay. We drafted Paul George, who by local reporters have cited him as progressing faster in his development than Danny was in this stage and Mike Dunleavy is healthy and not doing too shabby of a job right now.

Sure, Brandon has potential, but he also is an offensive liability. He cannot finish at the basket and is way too inconsistent with his jump-shooting. I'm tired of waiting around until April for his shots to fall. By then it's too late.

How is that for elaboration?

SMosley21
10-15-2010, 11:52 AM
Are you implying that the reward outweigh the risks associated with BRush?? I am just curious as to why you think that, yet you would want to trade him?? Just playing devils advocate here, but dont you think that if you are correct, and teams see the rewards outweighing the risk... Then why should we trade him, and be able to benefit from the possible rewards??

I'm not implying that at all. What I originally said was "Teams don't give a crap that a guy got suspended for 5 games for weed, if that player's value is enough to take the "risk" on. Brandon just hasn't proven himself to hold a lot of value thus far in his career."

So, IF his value (reward) was high enough, then a team would take a chance and trade for him without any real care about his apparent weed addiction. But I don't feel that his value IS high enough to tempt teams to give up much value for him.

Speed
10-15-2010, 11:53 AM
I don't consider the wing position to be a position of "extreme need". I would go as far as calling the PF position that, but not our wings.

We have a defensive specialist in Dahntay. We drafted Paul George, who by local reporters have cited him as progressing faster in his development than Danny was in this stage and Mike Dunleavy is healthy and not doing too shabby of a job right now.

Sure, Brandon has potential, but he also is an offensive liability. He cannot finish at the basket and is way too inconsistent with his jump-shooting. I'm tired of waiting around until April for his shots to fall. By then it's too late.

How is that for elaboration?

This, plus, 'potential' means nothing if your mind's not right. I'm not even talking about the suspension, I'm talking completely about on-court application of abilities.

Tried to find the 'deer in the headlight' image to insert here; couldn't find it, but if I did you'd be pretty much understanding my point in a picture sort of way.......

PaceBalls
10-15-2010, 11:55 AM
He's really been a disappointment and I'd rather us play James at backup SG. He's can defend and can shoot better than Brandon.

Are you saying James-over-the-hill-Posey is a better shooter and defender than Brandon?? I guess we all see the game differently, but I don't see how you could possibly come to that conclusion.

croz24
10-15-2010, 11:56 AM
and the pacers were in perfect position to select my guy jason thompson, or even randolph, speights, hickson, lopez, mcgee etc at that number 11 position. but bird just had to have his man brandon rush...

i said it then and i'll say it now, the pacers should have never passed on bill walker. he's brandon rush but with better athleticsm and far more desire.

pacer4ever
10-15-2010, 11:57 AM
Are you saying James-over-the-hill-Posey is a better shooter and defender than Brandon?? I guess we all see the game differently, but I don't see how you could possibly come to that conclusion.

James isnt fast enoght to guard micheal beasley at the 3 what makes you think he can guard Kobe lol

pacer4ever
10-15-2010, 11:58 AM
and the pacers were in perfect position to select my guy jason thompson, or even randolph, speights, hickson, lopez, mcgee etc at that number 11 position. but bird just had to have his man brandon rush...

Brandon is a nice player he is a elite defender in this league

Mackey_Rose
10-15-2010, 12:04 PM
I don't consider the wing position to be a position of "extreme need". I would go as far as calling the PF position that, but not our wings.

We have a defensive specialist in Dahntay. We drafted Paul George, who by local reporters have cited him as progressing faster in his development than Danny was in this stage and Mike Dunleavy is healthy and not doing too shabby of a job right now.

Sure, Brandon has potential, but he also is an offensive liability. He cannot finish at the basket and is way too inconsistent with his jump-shooting. I'm tired of waiting around until April for his shots to fall. By then it's too late.

How is that for elaboration?

You can group all the wings into one position if you like, but the fact remains we are still going to need somebody to guard the opposing teams' twos. George might be able to do that, Granger can't or won't, Dunleavy can't, and Jones has fallen so far off JOB's radar that I think we will be seeing him in a suit pretty much every night if he's still on the team come opening night.

I don't think it's fair to call Brandon Rush an offensive liability while mentioning Jones as a defensive specialist. Rush is a better defender, and is a much better offensive player than Jones. Why wouldn't you want Rush to fill this role instead of Jones? His finishing at the basket has left much to be desired, no doubt, but he's a much better outside shooter than you give him credit for. He's shot a very high percentage from three for the most part.

He's only 25 years old, I hope we don't cut bait on him just yet. If we were to get something of value back for him in return, that is a different story, but just to trade him to trade him seems like cutting off the nose to spite the face.

croz24
10-15-2010, 12:06 PM
Brandon is a nice player he is a elite defender in this league

but supposedly losing his spot in the rotation...given our current power forward situation and the development of the players we passed on, would you say that any of those players i listed could be had for just brandon rush via trade? imo no way would those teams trade their guys for brandon alone...

pacer4ever
10-15-2010, 12:09 PM
but supposedly losing his spot in the rotation...given our current power forward situation and the development of the players we passed on, would you say that any of those players i listed could be had for just brandon rush via trade? imo no way would those teams trade their guys for brandon alone...

most teams that win championships have players like B rush

SMosley21
10-15-2010, 12:12 PM
most teams that win championships have players like B rush

Most teams that win championships also have at least 1 superstar player and a 2nd star player, and a great coach, but that has nothing to do with the fact that the Pacers passed on a lot of much better players when they got Rush in that draft.

Day-V
10-15-2010, 12:34 PM
I think the frustrating thing with Brandon is that we have a direct growth comparison on our own team with Roy Hibbert. You look at Roy, and every season we have seen him grow and continue to grow in front of our eyes, both physically, as a leader, as a player, and even as a member of the community. He has become the face of the franchise.

Brandon, on the other hand, seems to be pretty much the same or only marginally better from what he was when he was drafted. He, as mentioned numerous times on here, is not the emotional player Roy is, nor is he a leader by any means.

Man, if only Brandon had the mentality of Roy.

Infinite MAN_force
10-15-2010, 12:46 PM
Most teams that win championships also have at least 1 superstar player and a 2nd star player, and a great coach, but that has nothing to do with the fact that the Pacers passed on a lot of much better players when they got Rush in that draft.

Where Rush was drafted and who was passed on is irrelevant to the player that Brandon Rush is NOW. A player that is one of the top three point shooters in the league and can defend at a very high level is a valuable player to have coming off your bench no matter what team you are. He's never going to be an aggresive scorer, but a guy who can defend and spot up for three is a valuable asset.

Rush not living up to draft expectations is a very poor reason to punt a high quality role player that can help you win. Especially when his value is at an all time low and gettting minimal value is a foregone conclusion.

d_c
10-15-2010, 12:50 PM
Brandon, on the other hand, seems to be pretty much the same or only marginally better from what he was when he was drafted. He, as mentioned numerous times on here, is not the emotional player Roy is, nor is he a leader by any means.

Man, if only Brandon had the mentality of Roy.

Should be noted that Rush was already 23 years old when drafted. He was an older college wing player. Hibbert was a younger, less physically mature college bigman. It's natural that Hibbert would have more room to improve.

Now of course Hibbert should be credited for actually taking the initiative to make those improvements, but the points sort of stands: 23 year old college wing players picked in the late lottery pretty much are going to turn out to be what you saw them as in college. Those guys are already close to what they're going to end up as.

Note that all of Rush's flaws on court that Pacer fans complain about are pretty much what Kansas fans moaned about several years ago.

croz24
10-15-2010, 12:55 PM
Where Rush was drafted and who was passed on is irrelevant to the player that Brandon Rush is NOW. A player that is one of the top three point shooters in the league and can defend at a very high level is a valuable player to have coming off your bench no matter what team you are. He's never going to be an aggresive scorer, but a guy who can defend and spot up for three is a valuable asset.

Rush not living up to draft expectations is a very poor reason to punt a high quality role player that can help you win. Especially when his value is at an all time low and gettting minimal value is a foregone conclusion.

don't think that's true because all it takes is a little bit of solid scouting to see that brandon has never been there mentally. he's struggled from high school on through college and now in the nba to get it right in his head. so yes, it's very relevant who we passed on to draft this guy imo. we passed on players with far more potential and desire and at a more valuable position of need for a guy with zero desire.

Pacers4Life
10-15-2010, 12:56 PM
And it doesnt prove that you like the guy b/c you have an autographed jersey on your wall... Just sayin...

Then why the heck do i have one too?! I didn't get it for my health...
If we trade brandon and someone for help at the 4 or 5... I accept that. Its like the Murphy trade, maybe it hurts us now... but ultimately i think we get better from it.

I'd love to part with the Jones boys for ANYTHING worth something in the big man dept. but i agree with mellifluous in that if Hibbert goes down at all (HEAVEN, GOD, LORD help us) we'll be screwed

duke dynamite
10-15-2010, 01:07 PM
James isnt fast enoght to guard micheal beasley at the 3 what makes you think he can guard Kobe lol
The sad thing is, O'Brien will put Danny on Kobe. Every night.

duke dynamite
10-15-2010, 01:07 PM
You can group all the wings into one position if you like, but the fact remains we are still going to need somebody to guard the opposing teams' twos. George might be able to do that, Granger can't or won't, Dunleavy can't, and Jones has fallen so far off JOB's radar that I think we will be seeing him in a suit pretty much every night if he's still on the team come opening night.

I don't think it's fair to call Brandon Rush an offensive liability while mentioning Jones as a defensive specialist. Rush is a better defender, and is a much better offensive player than Jones. Why wouldn't you want Rush to fill this role instead of Jones? His finishing at the basket has left much to be desired, no doubt, but he's a much better outside shooter than you give him credit for. He's shot a very high percentage from three for the most part.

He's only 25 years old, I hope we don't cut bait on him just yet. If we were to get something of value back for him in return, that is a different story, but just to trade him to trade him seems like cutting off the nose to spite the face.

I'll agree to disagree. When Rush can't hit the broad-side of a barn between November and March, I call that a liability.

90'sNBARocked
10-15-2010, 01:12 PM
I think D. Jones is a better defender than Rush

I think we're able to get more back if we package Rush in the trade.

Im kind of with you on this MillerTime

DJ has already proven to be an elite defender, if nothing else

Rush has done nothing but tease me like my prom date in highschool

Oh they talk a good game, get you real excited only to be let down when the buzzer sounds

Overall I think B Rush is a better player than DJ but I think DJ is a master of perimeter D, while Brandon is a jack of all trades, good at a lot of things, but not great in anything

Trophy
10-15-2010, 01:17 PM
No. Under no circumstances should Posey play any minutes at the 2. Other than being able to hit a 3, he has 0 guard skills. He is not a better shooter than Brandon (who is the 2nd best 3 point shooter on the team behind healthy Dunleavy). Posey's also having trouble guarding 3's so far in the preseason, I don't think we want to see try and guard guys who are even quicker.

Posey at the 2 is a terrible idea, and I'd venture to guess that he'll play 0 minutes there over the course of the season.

I'm a Rush fan, but if George is close to equal right now, then we can move Rush as long as we get value in return.

Rush's situation reminds me a lot of Thabo Sefolosha when he was with the Bulls. He was a very good defender who never put up enough offense to justify his draft slot. The Bulls were patient and ended up getting a late 1st round pick for him. Now he's a starter on a very good team where no one cares that he's not an offensive dynamo.

I agree it's probably best if James was to play SF and I'd rather us use Paul at SG to backup Mike if Paul is ready to slide over to the 2.

Mackey_Rose
10-15-2010, 01:20 PM
I'll agree to disagree. When Rush can't hit the broad-side of a barn between November and March, I call that a liability.

I think you are exaggerating his shooting struggles a little but that's not the point. The question is, how can you call Rush a liability and at the same time call Jones a defensive specialist?

Isn't it possible that the best role for Rush is as a defensive specialist, since he's already a better defender than Jones, and is also a better offensive player?

90'sNBARocked
10-15-2010, 01:26 PM
I dont know how you say someone "struggles" when they shot 41.5% form 3 last year

duke dynamite
10-15-2010, 01:31 PM
I think you are exaggerating his shooting struggles a little but that's not the point. The question is, how can you call Rush a liability and at the same time call Jones a defensive specialist?

Isn't it possible that the best role for Rush is as a defensive specialist, since he's already a better defender than Jones, and is also a better offensive player?

Who is better at defense is a matter of perception. I see Dahntay being a better defender than Rush. You see the opposite. I'm calling Rush an offensive liability because we cannot rely on him to finish at the basket or find his jump shot consistently. He is way too passive. I want my starters to excel in all aspects of the game, not just one or two. I like Dahntay coming in towards the end of the game if we need a stop or have the game in reach to win.

I'm not the only one who has "exaggerated" Rush's offensive struggles.

Sookie
10-15-2010, 01:32 PM
He's a better option, even if it's just a backup 3, than Posey.

90'sNBARocked
10-15-2010, 01:42 PM
Who is better at defense is a matter of perception. I see Dahntay being a better defender than Rush. You see the opposite. I'm calling Rush an offensive liability because we cannot rely on him to finish at the basket or find his jump shot consistently. He is way too passive. I want my starters to excel in all aspects of the game, not just one or two. I like Dahntay coming in towards the end of the game if we need a stop or have the game in reach to win.

I'm not the only one who has "exaggerated" Rush's offensive struggles.

Duke just curious if you feel the way I do about DJ

I feel with a different coach, someon like a Skiles, LB, Pop, Sloan, that he would excell and be even more valuable than Rush

Trophy
10-15-2010, 01:47 PM
I would much rather keep Dahntay than Brandon mainly for defensive purposes.

Although Dahntay can't really shoot, he can still score more consistently than Brandon and I find that Dahntay is always on the money defensively whenever he's playing. Plus he's a really tough player who can get to the line and make his free throws.

We brought him in strictly for defense and Bird even said we have plenty of shooters don't worry about shooting, but the sad thing is JOB won't use Dahntay because he can take 3 pointers mean while every single one of our wing players can, but some can't defend that well.

So I think we should keep Dahntay out of the 2 for 1 trade and make it Brandon and Solo for 1.

pacer4ever
10-15-2010, 01:49 PM
I would much rather keep Dahntay than Brandon for defensive purposes.

Although Dahntay can't really shoot, he can still score more consistently than Brandon and I find that Dahntay is always on the money defensively whenever he's playing. Plus he's a really tough player who can get to the line and make his free throws.

We brought him in strictly for defense and Bird even said we have plenty of shooters don't worry about shooting, but the sad thing is JOB won't use Dahntay because he can take 3 pointers mean while every single one of our wing players can, but some can't defend that well.

So I think we should keep Dahntay out of the 2 for 1 trade and make it Brandon and Solo for 1.

Brandon is better at D look at the stats

Trophy
10-15-2010, 01:51 PM
Brandon is better at D look at the stats

What stats?

pacers74
10-15-2010, 01:59 PM
Brandon might be a good defensive specialist, like D.Jones, but they both have offensive issues. Rush is too timid and passes up on open shot and D.jones isn't the greatest shooter and will tend to chuck up a lot of shots.

pacer4ever
10-15-2010, 01:59 PM
What stats?

i will have to find them they keep stats on everything Brandon was a top 10 player last year on D

Sookie
10-15-2010, 02:03 PM
I think Rush is an overall better player than Dahntay. But to be fair to Dahntay in terms of defense last season..he was being asked to guard players quite a bit bigger than himself. Which I'm sure decreased his effectiveness.

Mackey_Rose
10-15-2010, 02:03 PM
i will have to find them they keep stats on everything Brandon was a top 10 player last year on D

http://alwaysmillertime.com/2010/07/08/i-owe-brandon-rush-an-apology/

Our Venezuelan friend has already posted them twice in this thread.

duke dynamite
10-15-2010, 02:05 PM
Duke just curious if you feel the way I do about DJ

I feel with a different coach, someon like a Skiles, LB, Pop, Sloan, that he would excell and be even more valuable than Rush
I am reserving my opinions about the coach. So unfortunately I don't think I can answer your question. Think of it as a 3/4 years resolution.

Trophy
10-15-2010, 02:07 PM
I have nothing against Brandon as a guy. He's a cool guy and I have a signed jersey by him framed and he can be a good all around player at times, but it's not all the time or at least close to all the time.

His shooting form looks good, but I have no clue as to why he doesn't shoot more or why they he can't consistently make them.

vnzla81
10-15-2010, 02:45 PM
http://alwaysmillertime.com/2010/07/08/i-owe-brandon-rush-an-apology/

Our Venezuelan friend has already posted them twice in this thread.

Don't worry it seems like they don't want to see this because they are afraid of maybe changing their minds.

vnzla81
10-15-2010, 02:49 PM
I have nothing against Brandon as a guy. He's a cool guy and I have a signed jersey by him framed and he can be a good all around player at times, but it's not all the time or at least close to all the time.

His shooting form looks good, but I have no clue as to why he doesn't shoot more or why they he can't consistently make them.

Have you ever ask yourself that maybe Brandon is not as agressive in the offensive end because he is expending most of his energy guarding the other team best player? not just that he is also taking pressure of Danny letting him do what he does best and that is score.

duke dynamite
10-15-2010, 02:53 PM
Have you ever ask yourself that maybe Brandon is not as agressive in the offensive end because he is expending most of his energy guarding the other team best player? not just that he is also taking pressure of Danny letting him do what he does best and that is score.
I recall O'Brien putting Granger on the best player of the opposing team last season most of the time.

Kuq_e_Zi91
10-15-2010, 03:07 PM
I'm so tired of all the Brandon Rush hate on here. I'm far from his biggest supporter, but a lot of you are severely underrating what he does for this team.

How can a terrible shooter shoot over 40% from three FOR THE SEASON? Talk all you want about him only showing up in April, but the numbers contradict that.

Dahntay's defense is overrated. Don't confuse being aggressive with good defense. He's good when it comes to pushing around smaller players like Chris Paul, but he gets beat and fouls too often. Rush on the other hand, is much more mechanically sound. You don't notice his defense because it's not in your face aggression. It's simply proper position, hand in the face of the shooter.

But whatever, I'm just so tired of people not appreciating Rush's game. It's gotten to the point where I hope he does get traded or we don't pick up his option so he can flourish on another team. Not only will people never appreciate it here, which is funny because I thought Indiana knew their basketball, but if he does turn it around, I'd hate to see all the people who wanted him gone all of a sudden jump on the bandwagon. Let him go. Larry Brown or Popovich would love to take him off our hands.

Mr. Sobchak
10-15-2010, 03:26 PM
Not to be a jerk but you're crazy if you think that Dahntay's defense is better than Rush's...

Dahntay is more of a pesky in your face defender but he is certainly not better...Frankly I think we're using him wrong. He's more capable of defending quick 1's and small 2's. See the Hornets/Nuggets series a couple of years back when he was on CP3.

Trophy
10-15-2010, 03:30 PM
I really don't care who plays backup SG.

Eleazar
10-15-2010, 03:35 PM
It is just 5 ****ing games in a 82 game season. Does anyone else think O'Brien, and basically 90% of people, are overacting over a guy missing 5 games most players miss 5 to 10 games a season, and Rush didn't miss one game last year.

Maybe it is just me, but to me JOB seems to have no sense of the future. He sees the immediate future, but can't see beyond 5 games. Yeah, you have to prepare for those 5 games, but at the same time you also need to prepare for the follow 77.

Infinite MAN_force
10-15-2010, 03:38 PM
Brandon might be a good defensive specialist, like D.Jones, but they both have offensive issues. Rush is too timid and passes up on open shot and D.jones isn't the greatest shooter and will tend to chuck up a lot of shots.

Give me the guy who plays within himself and plays the team concepts over the black hole with limited shooting range every day of the week.

Jones is a liability. He makes poor decisions with the ball and lacks range, and thusly fails to spread the floor from the 2 guard position. He screws up the whole offense.

I truly believe Rush is the superior defender as well, certainly more versatile.

pacer4ever
10-15-2010, 03:39 PM
I'm so tired of all the Brandon Rush hate on here. I'm far from his biggest supporter, but a lot of you are severely underrating what he does for this team.

How can a terrible shooter shoot over 40% from three FOR THE SEASON? Talk all you want about him only showing up in April, but the numbers contradict that.

Dahntay's defense is overrated. Don't confuse being aggressive with good defense. He's good when it comes to pushing around smaller players like Chris Paul, but he gets beat and fouls too often. Rush on the other hand, is much more mechanically sound. You don't notice his defense because it's not in your face aggression. It's simply proper position, hand in the face of the shooter.

But whatever, I'm just so tired of people not appreciating Rush's game. It's gotten to the point where I hope he does get traded or we don't pick up his option so he can flourish on another team. Not only will people never appreciate it here, which is funny because I thought Indiana knew their basketball, but if he does turn it around, I'd hate to see all the people who wanted him gone all of a sudden jump on the bandwagon. Let him go. Larry Brown or Popovich would love to take him off our hands.

people dont understand that people like B Rush are a must to win championships

Infinite MAN_force
10-15-2010, 03:42 PM
I have nothing against Brandon as a guy. He's a cool guy and I have a signed jersey by him framed and he can be a good all around player at times, but it's not all the time or at least close to all the time.

His shooting form looks good, but I have no clue as to why he doesn't shoot more or why they he can't consistently make them.


Seriously, 41.5% for the year from three. During that stretch late last year it was close to 45% which is ELITE. This idea that Rush can't shoot is just wrong.

The criticism that he doesn't take enough shots is valid.

1984
10-15-2010, 03:44 PM
Happy trails to you...

I never understood why we brought Rush to Indiana. Bayless was so much more desireable IMO. We all knew Jack was a goner and the jury is still out on McRoberts.

SMosley21
10-15-2010, 03:45 PM
Just assuming that Rush and Dahntay are equals on defense (not saying they are or they aren't, just eliminating that from the equation), for the lack of aggression that Rush shows on the offensive end of the floor, Dahntay is equally inept at that end for the very reason mentioned above. Once he catches the ball on the wing, all ball movement ceases and Dahntay goes into running back mode. He's either going to bull into the lane and try to draw contact (after waiting around for 5-8 seconds) or he's going to pull up for an 18 foot jumper.

So basically, these guys are a wash on the offensive end of the floor, so that shouldn't be part of the argument when comparing the two.

Now if you were to go into the defensive side, that's where you would have to make a case for one being better than the other.

1984
10-15-2010, 03:47 PM
Seriously, 41.5% for the year from three. During that stretch late last year it was close to 45% which is ELITE. This idea that Rush can't shoot is just wrong.

The criticism that he doesn't take enough shots is valid.


I'm assuming you are a Rush fan. Do you think his inconsistency is the result of inconsistent playing time? Or, is there another factor?

90'sNBARocked
10-15-2010, 03:56 PM
Just assuming that Rush and Dahntay are equals on defense (not saying they are or they aren't, just eliminating that from the equation), for the lack of aggression that Rush shows on the offensive end of the floor, Dahntay is equally inept at that end for the very reason mentioned above. Once he catches the ball on the wing, all ball movement ceases and Dahntay goes into running back mode. He's either going to bull into the lane and try to draw contact (after waiting around for 5-8 seconds) or he's going to pull up for an 18 foot jumper.

So basically, these guys are a wash on the offensive end of the floor, so that shouldn't be part of the argument when comparing the two.

Now if you were to go into the defensive side, that's where you would have to make a case for one being better than the other.

So basically they both suck :)

pacers74
10-15-2010, 04:03 PM
For those who are using the argument that a type player is needed on a team to win chamionships, that not where we are at. He could be a final piece to come in on spot duty and guard one of the btter ofensove players. That is what D.Jones did for Denver. He started, but only averaged somewhere around 15 minutes a game. He guarded Kobe and the likes, but when they needed offense out he went and in came Smith.

We still need more offensive minded players. Rush is afraid to shoot and D.Jones isn't that great at it. I hope George can step up and play SG, because he can shoot and drive the lane. He is just still getting used to playing at this level and he is improving. For right now I am content with Dunleavy starting and George cbeing the first wing off of the bench. Rush and D.Jones can fight for the second wing off the bench spot.

I don't hate Rush, I just wish he would play all year like he does in the last month of the seasons.

pacers74
10-15-2010, 04:05 PM
By the way, last summer (2009) we were discussing if we would trade Rush for Kevin Martin, a lot of people including me thought Rush had the upside to keep him over Martin.
Now I would do that trade in a second.

pacer4ever
10-15-2010, 04:05 PM
For those who are using the argument that a type player is needed on a team to win chamionships, that not where we are at. He could be a final piece to come in on spot duty and guard one of the btter ofensove players. That is what D.Jones did for Denver. He started, but only averaged somewhere around 15 minutes a game. He guarded Kobe and the likes, but when they needed offense out he went and in came Smith.

We still need more offensive minded players. Rush is afraid to shoot and D.Jones isn't that great at it. I hope George can step up and play SG, because he can shoot and drive the lane. He is just still getting used to playing at this level and he is improving. For right now I am content with Dunleavy starting and George cbeing the first wing off of the bench. Rush and D.Jones can fight for the second wing off the bench spot.

I don't hate Rush, I just wish he would play all year like he does in the last month of the seasons.


But people who are saying he is a bad player are wrong. He is what you need coming off the bench or starting for a championship team. We need D and he brings it on D every game.

pacers74
10-15-2010, 04:08 PM
But people who are saying he is a bad player are wrong. He is what you need coming off the bench or starting for a championship team. We need D and he brings it on D every game.

I don't think he is bad, I just would rather have someone at SG who is willing to take open shots and drive to the basket. He looks great in April, but where is that the rest of the year?

Day-V
10-15-2010, 04:08 PM
But people who are saying he is a bad player are wrong. He is what you need coming off the bench or starting for a championship team. We need D and he brings it on D every game.

How are those stats coming along?

pacer4ever
10-15-2010, 04:10 PM
How are those stats coming along?

sry im on my phone im in class i will find the article then post it

BringJackBack
10-15-2010, 04:11 PM
How can a terrible shooter shoot over 40% from three FOR THE SEASON? Talk all you want about him only showing up in April, but the numbers contradict that.



How could Troy Murphy be a decent rebounder if he averaged 10 FOR THE SEASON? Talk all you want about him getting soft rebounds, but the numbers contradict that.

Since86
10-15-2010, 04:12 PM
How are those stats coming along?

It was the previous page.


Brandon is better at D look at the stats


What stats?


http://alwaysmillertime.com/2010/07/08/i-owe-brandon-rush-an-apology/

Our Venezuelan friend has already posted them twice in this thread.

pacer4ever
10-15-2010, 04:12 PM
here read this article.

This also shows why Thabo Sefolosha starts for OKC. Harden is better on offnse but Thabo Sefolosha plays really good D that's why he starts.




http://hickory-high.com/2010/07/01/i-owe-brandon-rush-an-apology/

vnzla81
10-15-2010, 04:16 PM
How many times are we going to post that and they still don't see it?

:picardriker:

Justin Tyme
10-15-2010, 04:33 PM
He's only 25 years old, I hope we don't cut bait on him just yet. If we were to get something of value back for him in return, that is a different story, but just to trade him to trade him seems like cutting off the nose to spite the face.


I don't believe anyone has said to trad Rush just to trade him. IF Rush is traded, I would EXPECT something of value in return.

Psyren
10-15-2010, 04:38 PM
To Rush's credit, at least he's taking ownership for it and being a good sport.

He could be sitting on the end of the bench complaining, but at least he's showing some maturity by accepting that this was nobody's fault but his own.

BringJackBack
10-15-2010, 04:38 PM
How many times are we going to post that and they still don't see it?

:picardriker:


:picard:


Don't act like we're the ones that deserve a facepalm. Your the one that still supports this guy. He can't score and he got busted for smoking pot 3 times during the regular season in two years.

It's not us that brought the whole city down with his sad play and ridiculous choices.

Justin Tyme
10-15-2010, 04:43 PM
Who is better at defense is a matter of perception. I see Dahntay being a better defender than Rush. You see the opposite. I'm calling Rush an offensive liability because we cannot rely on him to finish at the basket or find his jump shot consistently. He is way too passive. I want my starters to excel in all aspects of the game, not just one or two. I like Dahntay coming in towards the end of the game if we need a stop or have the game in reach to win.

I'm not the only one who has "exaggerated" Rush's offensive struggles.


To add to your post, I want my SG shooting more than 70 some FT in a season at a 61%.

vnzla81
10-15-2010, 04:57 PM
I don't believe anyone has said to trad Rush just to trade him. IF Rush is traded, I would EXPECT something of value in return.

Here



Good. Get rid of him. "False Hope" should be his nickname.

pacergod2
10-15-2010, 05:04 PM
I really don't care who plays backup SG.

Yeah, me neither. It is a toss up for me between Dunleavy and George with DJones a distant third. Just doesn't really matter much. I think Lance will take some minutes that will be well deserved, but I think they are going to try to hide Lance on the bench early this year. Keep him from hurting himself professionally that early. Make him really earn it from a maturity standpoint. They will also probably end up trading Dunleavy at the deadline. Rush will be the starter most of the games this season.

Infinite MAN_force
10-15-2010, 05:04 PM
I'm assuming you are a Rush fan. Do you think his inconsistency is the result of inconsistent playing time? Or, is there another factor?

I'm not a fan of Rush necessarily, I'm a fan of what he brings to the table as a role player. A guy who shoots 41% from three and defends at a high level is very valuable, and not as common as you think.

Why is a player like Jason Kapono valuable? He's a three point specialist, this is something teams seek out. Jason Kapono isn't taking anyone off the dribble or throwing down dunks in people's faces, hes spotting up in the corner and shooting threes... he is spreading the floor to open up lanes for his teammates who are hopefully more talented pure scorers, and he is making the defense pay for collapsing on those scorers and leaving him open at the arc.

This dude's skills are in demand in the NBA, and guess what... he SUCKS AT DEFENSE.

Brandon Rush shot 41.1% from three last season, Jason Kapono shot 41.9%, for a difference of less than one percentage point, I will take Rush's defense over Kapono all day long.

The problem isn't Rush, its people's expectations. People are mad because he isn't the second coming of Danny Granger. People are right that he may not be what we need starting at the 2 gaurd, but you can't do much better if we are talking about an off the bench role player than Brandon Rush. He's essentially a defensive specialist and a three point specialist wrapped up in one player.

I don't care if he looks to score. Spread the floor, Knock down the open three, and don't take a defensive possesion off. Every team needs a player like that.

Dr. Awesome
10-15-2010, 05:06 PM
:picard:


Don't act like we're the ones that deserve a facepalm. Your the one that still supports this guy. He can't score and he got busted for smoking pot 3 times during the regular season in two years.

It's not us that brought the whole city down with his sad play and ridiculous choices.

You probably like Jim O'Brien too...

vnzla81
10-15-2010, 05:15 PM
I'm not a fan of Rush necissarily, I'm a fan of what he brings to the table as a role player. A guy who shoots 41% from three and defends at a high level is very valuable, and not as common as you think.

Why is a player like Jason Kapono valuable? He's a three point specialist, this is something teams seek out. Jason Kapono isn't taking anyone off the dribble or throwing down dunks in people's faces, hes spotting up in the corner and shooting threes... he is spreading the floor to open up lanes for his teammates who are hopefully more talented pure scorers, and he is making the defense pay for collapsing on those scorers and leaving him open at the arc.

This dude's skills are in demand in the NBA, and guess what... he SUCKS AT DEFENSE.

Brandon Rush shot 41.1% from three last season, Jason Kapono shot 41.9%, for a difference of less than one percentage point, I will take Rush's defense over Kapono all day long.

The problem isn't Rush, its people's expectations. People are mad because he isn't the second coming of Danny Granger. People are right that he may not be what we need starting at the 2 gaurd, but you can't do much better if we are talking about an off the bench role player than Brandon Rush. He's essentially a defensive specialist and a three point specialist wrapped up in one player.

I don't care if he looks to score. Spread the floor, Knock down the open three, and don't take a defensive possesion off. Every team needs a player like that.

Don't forget about JJ Redick and his 7.5 mil a year or Kyle Corver and his 5mil a year.

pacergod2
10-15-2010, 05:23 PM
I'm assuming you are a Rush fan. Do you think his inconsistency is the result of inconsistent playing time? Or, is there another factor?

I don't think it's inconsistent playing time.

One, I think that the bulk of his shots come from deep. That lends itself to more volatility. If you shoot 0-5 from deep and 2-7 overall and end up with four points you didn't really help your team. If you shoot 4-5 from deep and are 5-7 with 14 points, you clearly helped your team. That is a big reason for his volatility. The more he shoots inside from short jumpers, drives to the rim, and free throws, the more consistency you will see. Guys who average 20+ typically get to the line a lot. They get many of their points from the stripe, which also lends itself to be more consistent offensively. He doesn't get to the line enough, but IMO a lot of that has to do with being the corner shooter after knowing that Troy and Granger were lesser options. I think he will play more of a traditional wing this year and thus will induce more offensive involvement.

The "inconsistent" tag has more to do with his offensive prowess, not his defensive prowess. The only time I see inconsistency from him on the defensive end is when he is guarding DWade or Kobe, who literally score at will. Sometimes he would be indecisive on the defensive end whether he would pick up Troy's man on helpside or stick with his man. That was inconsistent for me defensively. His decision making on the switches, but when it happens that much, what do you do. (Murphy was CLEARLY not the only one who got blown by regularly either). I look forward to see what this team does defensively this year. I expect some significant improvement. Not top 5 defenses necessarily, but more legitimately 8-13 in team defense.

I would like for Jim to give Brandon a defensive captain type of role, where he is the linebacker/PG of our defense. Might boost his confidence by asking him to be a more vocal leader on the floor. Let him carry the defensive swagger to lead by example for the other guys.

OakMoses
10-15-2010, 05:43 PM
I think one thing is clear so far this year. Rush is not going to be coddled any more.

There's a pretty clear message being sent from the organization (Bird, O'Brien) to Brandon. As of right now, he's not in the rotation, even after the suspension. After this season, he may not even be on the team.

It should be obvious now. He either grows up, puts on his big boy britches, and gets down to business, and earns his spot back, or he can ride the pine, get released, and hope to get a short, cheap contract from another team next year.

pacers74
10-15-2010, 05:53 PM
I think one thing is clear so far this year. Rush is not going to be coddled any more.

There's a pretty clear message being sent from the organization (Bird, O'Brien) to Brandon. As of right now, he's not in the rotation, even after the suspension. After this season, he may not even be on the team.

It should be obvious now. He either grows up, puts on his big boy britches, and gets down to business, and earns his spot back, or he can ride the pine, get released, and hope to get a short, cheap contract from another team next year.

Really good post. It's time to s@#t or get off of the pot. Or just get off of the pot.

IndyPacer
10-15-2010, 06:02 PM
I agree with you that defense is important and trading Rush now probably isn't at the height of his trade value.

However, I think George will be a better defender, a much better and more aggressive offensive player and just a better player overall. I think by next year at this time George and Granger will have the 2 and 3 positions locked up for years to come

Next year is a long way from now. We haven't even started THIS YEAR yet.

LoneGranger33
10-15-2010, 06:21 PM
Don't act like we're the ones that deserve a facepalm. Your the one that still supports this guy. He can't score and he got busted for smoking pot 3 times during the regular season in two years.

It's not us that brought the whole city down with his sad play and ridiculous choices.

The hyperbole on this forum is the worst in the entire world.

BRushWithDeath
10-15-2010, 06:28 PM
He should be the starter.

He's not what I expected he'd be. His lack of aggression offensively is incredibly frustrating. But come on. He's far and away the best defender on the team. He's a 40% three point shooter. We don't need him to be our 2nd option anymore. We don't even need him to be our 3rd scoring option. Granger, Collison, and Hibbert will suck up the majority of the shots anyway. Rush is the perfect starting option next to these three along with McRoberts. He'll hit open threes and play defense. That's all we need from him. Many of the same people who want Rush gone are the same people who would love to have Bruce Bowen in his prime. Well, we have him.

BlueNGold
10-15-2010, 07:47 PM
Brandon is a good player simply because he defends very well. Otherwise, he is just potential...after two full seasons. Potential we have to hope might stop smoking pot.

Want the truth? The Pacers already consider Paul George the future starting SG...and the reality is he has a lot more potential. He defends and is far more naturally aggressive. He's also longer and will soon be a highlight reel.

Woh, did you just see that dunk?

So, the context is whether you want to keep Brandon for a future backup role.

IndyPacer
10-15-2010, 09:36 PM
I'm not a fan of Rush necessarily, I'm a fan of what he brings to the table as a role player. A guy who shoots 41% from three and defends at a high level is very valuable, and not as common as you think.

Why is a player like Jason Kapono valuable? He's a three point specialist, this is something teams seek out. Jason Kapono isn't taking anyone off the dribble or throwing down dunks in people's faces, hes spotting up in the corner and shooting threes... he is spreading the floor to open up lanes for his teammates who are hopefully more talented pure scorers, and he is making the defense pay for collapsing on those scorers and leaving him open at the arc.

This dude's skills are in demand in the NBA, and guess what... he SUCKS AT DEFENSE.

Brandon Rush shot 41.1% from three last season, Jason Kapono shot 41.9%, for a difference of less than one percentage point, I will take Rush's defense over Kapono all day long.

The problem isn't Rush, its people's expectations. People are mad because he isn't the second coming of Danny Granger. People are right that he may not be what we need starting at the 2 gaurd, but you can't do much better if we are talking about an off the bench role player than Brandon Rush. He's essentially a defensive specialist and a three point specialist wrapped up in one player.

I don't care if he looks to score. Spread the floor, Knock down the open three, and don't take a defensive possesion off. Every team needs a player like that.

I was REALLY looking forward to seeing Rush play alongside Collison in an offense that is supposedly going to run through Hibbert. Rush should be much better suited to be a 3-point weapon and a defensive specialist rather than be expected to be a scorer, and wouldn't need to create his own shot with Collison running the show and Hibbert kicking the ball out for open shots. Rush really screwed things up with this pot fiasco. I hope he can get back on track because I could see him matching up well with his teammates and their skill sets.

ksuttonjr76
10-15-2010, 10:05 PM
Here's the million dollar question...we get rid of Brandon Rush to get who? It's already been somewhat hinted that Collison, Granger, and Hibbert are going score most of the points while Paul George has much promise to add to that offense. Under that notion, Rush's offense is irrelevant if he's with the Starting 5. Heck, Tyler just scored 19 points in tonight's game, so the starting SG's offense is REALLY starting to look irrelevant.

Rush averaged 10.1 points, 4.4 rebounds, 0.7 steals, 0.8 blocks and 1.5 3-pointers in 59 starts. You mean to tell me that Indiana wouldn't want that type of production coming off the bench?

Anthem
10-15-2010, 10:44 PM
Rush averaged 10.1 points, 4.4 rebounds, 0.7 steals, 0.8 blocks and 1.5 3-pointers in 59 starts. You mean to tell me that Indiana wouldn't want that type of production coming off the bench?
Actually, I'd like to see Rush starting and Dunleavy coming off the bench. Same deal as Tyler... I like Dunleavy, but don't think he's a good fit guarding the 2s on D and playing between Granger and Collison on O. Let him play in the second unit with AJ, George, and Tyler. That lets him run the offense and do the stuff he's good at.

I mean, the dude's primary attribute is his scoring. But he's not going to get shots in our starting lineup. In 4 games, he's gone 1-1, 3-5 (twice), and tonight (with Granger out) he went 4-8. I appreciate is efficiency, but wouldn't he benefit from being more of a primary option?

Infinite MAN_force
10-15-2010, 10:50 PM
Collison/Price
Rush/George
Granger/Dunleavy
Mcroberts/Hansbrough
Hibbert/Mcroberts

That is a 9 man rotation I could live with. Good balance of scorers and "glue" guys with both lineups. The starters would be very strong defensively.

Naptown_Seth
10-15-2010, 10:59 PM
I agree with you that defense is important and trading Rush now probably isn't at the height of his trade value.

However, I think George will be a better defender, a much better and more aggressive offensive player and just a better player overall. I think by next year at this time George and Granger will have the 2 and 3 positions locked up for years to come
I can agree with this. But we have seen Rush defend well over a long haul of NBA games, as well as going months shooting 40% from 3 in NBA games. So at best you get George to be a little better in those areas.

George certainly looks likely to be a more aggressive offensive player.

BUT...this is not who Rush has to beat out to play. George can start, but why are you keeping Dun and Jones around at that point. That's why you don't trade Rush.

Price, Rush and Tyler all seem like solid bench options. Jones' offensive choices are killing his +/- and leaving him as a negative impact guy, and it sucks to have to say that. Everyone is hoping for a magic return of Dun, but what exactly is that role if Danny, Collison, George and Roy are all going as your main scorers? It's not defense and until a new contract he's still killing the cap if George is playing well.


JOB has done this to Rush before and Rush continues to play great defense, rebound fairly well and shoot the 3 when he gets back into the rotation.


Dun, TJ and Foster's money has to leave the Pacers still, and George has to prove himself in real games and for more than a month. Another mini JOB doghouse for Rush shouldn't be enough to derail a big picture plan.

Naptown_Seth
10-15-2010, 11:08 PM
And a funny thing in all this is how willing people are to overlook Danny's rather poor defense the last 2 years. Hustle help defense like chasing down blocks, sure, but quality choices in one on one moments, not Danny's strength anymore.


I'd like to see the defense of a Collison, Rush, George, Josh, Roy squad. That team doesn't lack offense even, and if it does you pull in Danny to replace Rush, PG or Roy (go smaller).

pacer4ever
10-15-2010, 11:18 PM
And a funny thing in all this is how willing people are to overlook Danny's rather poor defense the last 2 years. Hustle help defense like chasing down blocks, sure, but quality choices in one on one moments, not Danny's strength anymore.


I'd like to see the defense of a Collison, Rush, George, Josh, Roy squad. That team doesn't lack offense even, and if it does you pull in Danny to replace Rush, PG or Roy (go smaller).

i agree with you DG33 could play better D it is mental. He just has to make an effort to play D like ugg LBJ6.

IndyPacer
10-16-2010, 02:47 AM
And a funny thing in all this is how willing people are to overlook Danny's rather poor defense the last 2 years. Hustle help defense like chasing down blocks, sure, but quality choices in one on one moments, not Danny's strength anymore.


I'd like to see the defense of a Collison, Rush, George, Josh, Roy squad. That team doesn't lack offense even, and if it does you pull in Danny to replace Rush, PG or Roy (go smaller).

It seems like we rarely hear about Granger's inconsistency of defense in recent years, yet the whining about the inconsistency of Rush's offense is endless.

imawhat
10-16-2010, 03:03 AM
It seems like we rarely hear about Granger's inconsistency of defense in recent years, yet the whining about the inconsistency of Rush's offense is endless.

Yep. I'd even argue that Rush was the 2nd most consistent player on the team last year behind Murphy. He was consistently good on defense every game. His offense was shaky, but that's it.

Nobody's arguing about Granger's inconsistent offense either. His offense was more inconsistent than Brandon's. One night you get good shot selection, the next he's chucking threes when he passes the half court line.

Brandon's very easy to pick on because of his demeanor and tentativeness on offense. It's the Derrick McKey syndrome, part II.

Our starting lineup's two biggest problems right now are perimeter defense and rebounding. Brandon helps tremendously in both of those areas. And as a bonus, he's a great spot up shooter, which will be needed with Danny and Darren when Roy starts drawing double teams. Him starting is a no-brainer, but I guess I don't mind the slow start.

Anthem
10-16-2010, 09:42 AM
It seems like we rarely hear about Granger's inconsistency of defense in recent years
I can't agree with that.

IndyPacer
10-16-2010, 09:47 AM
I can't agree with that.

It's still true even if you can't. The only time that it's received a substantial amount of attention recently is when he was glued to the bench for Coach K, but this problem has existed for quite some time.

Eleazar
10-16-2010, 10:04 AM
I'm willing to bet that if JOB used Rush more like Miller or Hamilton, running off screens looking for open threes, he would be a lot more consistent and confident.

BringJackBack
10-16-2010, 12:56 PM
You probably like Jim O'Brien too...

No...

QuickRelease
10-16-2010, 02:00 PM
I think D. Jones is a better defender than Rush

I think we're able to get more back if we package Rush in the trade.I disagree. Between the two, if I absolutely needed a stop, I'd put Rush on them without hesitation.

imawhat
10-16-2010, 02:05 PM
However, I think George will be a better defender, a much better and more aggressive offensive player and just a better player overall. I think by next year at this time George and Granger will have the 2 and 3 positions locked up for years to come

Wait a second. Aren't you always criticizing others for drawing conclusions from only a handful of games?

How did you reach the conclusion that George will be a better defender than Rush?

McKeyFan
10-16-2010, 02:07 PM
How about that megadunk by Paul George last night?

There's your contrast with Brandon Rush. I say the promising defender of Paul George will replace the need of Brandon by the All-Star Break.

QuickRelease
10-16-2010, 02:14 PM
Happy trails to you...

I never understood why we brought Rush to Indiana. Bayless was so much more desireable IMO. We all knew Jack was a goner and the jury is still out on McRoberts.
And Bayless has done???

pacer4ever
10-16-2010, 02:39 PM
How about that megadunk by Paul George last night?

There's your contrast with Brandon Rush. I say the promising defender of Paul George will replace the need of Brandon by the All-Star Break.

the best thing about that dunk was how he looked off the D savy move.