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indianapolismarkus
10-14-2010, 11:30 PM
Pacer fans were spoiled

Jim O'Brien is fealing the pressure. After tinkering with the lineups in the second half of the first three games with horrible results he's had to shore up the rotations so the novice fans will stop bickering. After three meaningless preseason games he's had to stop experimenting with the lineups and stop trying to develop the end of the bench.

Indiana has not had a coach for more than four years since Slick Leonard's twelve year stint ended in 1980. We were a poorly run francise untill Donnie Walsh came in the mid 80's. In the early 90's we had a playoff team but couldn't convince a good coach to come here till Lary Brown in the mid 90's. That's when things took off.

We had a nice run that ended in going to the Finals in 2000. Then we made some trades that brought us Jermaine O'neal, Ron Artest and Brad Miller and we made another playoff run. Making the playoffs for 16 out of 17 years has spoiled the fans. The novice fans need to appreciate how hard it is to build a playoff team.

Jim O'Brien has been criticized too harshly by some short sighted fans. We need to realize that we are still in transition and are rebuilding on the fly. We should be happy that Larry Bird talked Jim O'Brien in coming here and that we don't have a rookie coach to go along with our young roster.

It's been a shock to our system that we've gone from a half court team to a running team but we don't have Rik Smits and Jermaine O'neal in the post commanding double teams. Roy Hibbert is trying to be our man in the post but is still young, awkward and still learning but has a work ethic that gives us confidence that he'll succeed. Don't forget that it took Rik Smits and Jermaine O'neal some time to get it going.

Larry Bird has took some unfair criticism also. The biggest blemish on his record is drafting Shawne Williams 17th in 2006 but look at his contemporaries. Twelve through twenty look like this: Hilton Armstrong, Thabo Sefolosha, Ronnie Brewer, Cedric Simmons, Rodney Carney, Shawne Williams, Oleksiy Pecherov, Quincy Douby, Renaldo Balkman. To be fair Donnie Walsh was in charge until april 2008.

The Pacers have turned Jermaine O'neal, Troy Murphy and Shawne Williams into Roy Hibbert, T.J. Ford, Darren Collison and Magnum Rolle. They have drafted Danny Granger, Tyler Hansbrough and Paul George in the first round at 17, 13, 10. Also have turned Jarryd Bayless into Josh McRoberts and Brandon Rush. Then we have had two second round steals in A.J. Price and Lance Stephenson. The last time we've had a second round steal was Antonio Davis in 1990.

Larry Bird's three year plan is looking good. After this year when we will have some cap space to hopefully bring in a nice veteran in a slim class of free agents and have another chance to draft between 17 and 10. We will finally have the roster that we can be proud of for many years.

These last few years have been frustrating and in alot of ways mirror the late 80's. We should be thankful that we've bottomed out at only 32 wins. Do you remember the four strait 20 win seasons we had in the early to mid 80's. That monumental failure set up the success in the 90's.

The Pacers have spoiled us. Who else could build a team without any top 9 picks. It's been 20 years since we've had a season so bad. How many teams can say that?

We were 27th in the league in attendence last year. The Colts are bringing in 50,000+ fans every game but do you think once Manning retires the fans will be patient while they get another quarterback?

In 1985 the year of the first lottery many fans jumped on the bandwagon when we got the second pick and were rewarded in the 90's. By the mid 90's it was hard to get a good seat. People need to reserve there seats now because conventual wisdom will tell you that starting next year good seats will be getting harder to come by.

Let's not be novice short sighted spoiled fans. Let's enjoy the run the Pacers are about to make and appreciate the hard work this organization has done.

Me and my fellow area 55ers will see you at the game. Go Pacers!

90'sNBARocked
10-14-2010, 11:32 PM
way to start the show with a bang , lol

indianapolismarkus
10-14-2010, 11:37 PM
This is also a fanpost at indycornrows.com but I thought the diehard's here on PD would like it.

Go Pacers!

Hicks
10-14-2010, 11:56 PM
I know I was spoiled in my teens when I got heavily interested in the Larry Bird-coached teams. Isiah started off when I was in full sunshiner mode, so that 41-41 year wasn't that bad for me, though a letdown compared to 2000, of course. Then the next year things start off rocky, but then that Chicago trade happened and re-energized the team, leading to an awesome series with New Jersey followed by what was initially a very promising/exciting 2003 season.

Then Larry comes back, and even though Brad was traded :soapbox: we got Rick Carlisle in for Isiah and made good in 2004 the way I thought we were going to in 2003.

Then we get to the fall of 2004....... the mustard's never really been put back on the hotdog since 11/19/04. Reggie's last hurrah was great, but definitely bittersweet.

Since then... :uhoh:

Things look like they just might be getting ready to turn the corner now. I want to be optimistic about that, but I've become jaded to the point where I'm still waiting to see it happen. But I sure as hell feel better now than I did at any point prior to 8/11/10!

Hicks
10-14-2010, 11:58 PM
By the way...

My God. It's been SIX. YEARS. since the year of the Brawl. Six years since Reggie Miller wore a Pacer uniform. Six years since this franchise had a largely glowing reputation. Wow.

Pacers4Life
10-14-2010, 11:59 PM
good read... and for those of us not old to remember those days its a nice reminder. I've only seen a lot of the good with reggie and this rebuilding process... but im sooo ready for this to take us somewhere. Pacers for life!

indianapolismarkus
10-15-2010, 12:22 AM
The 2005 season had to be the most heartbreaking Pacer season ever. The brawl coupled with our only HOFer Reggie ending his career. We are now just recovering from that.

Area 55 is alive. Go Pacers!

Really?
10-15-2010, 12:26 AM
The Pacers have spoiled us. Who else could build a team without any top 9 picks. It's been 20 years since we've had a season so bad. How many teams can say that?

Just addressing this point... there is a reason of late why we have not had a top 9 pic, and this is my thing, building a team has to do a lot with making the most of the opportunities in front of you. The Pacers could have easily had a top 9 draft pick if they would have played smart near the ends of multiple seasons.

I will say that I am spoiled as of late, but not due to the Pacers past but due to the Colts present, so used to being in a city of a team that is always competing for a championship and then we have the Pacers who never really seemed to get their stuff straight.

I am grateful of some of the opportunities that the Pacers have taken advantage of such as getting Danny when he slipped down draft boards and taking a chance on a slow Center who many didn't see potential in. But during that same time there were a bunch of situations that I feel Pacer management and PLAYERS could have taken better advantage of and did not.

Lol I like being spoiled by the way... especially by the teams that I am a fan of, don't know many fans that wouldn't want to be.

And on that note thanks PG for the discounted tickets I really appreciate it :)

indianapolismarkus
10-15-2010, 12:51 AM
We could have had a top 9 pick the last two seasons if we didn't go on late season runs. That's a testiment to the coach and players not giving up.

The future looks bright. Go Pacers!

I Love P
10-15-2010, 02:06 AM
A55 is alive...let's bring it. It helps the team....period.

indianapolismarkus
10-15-2010, 02:23 AM
Me and my fellow Area 55ers are changing the atmosphere in the Fieldhouse.

Go Pacers!

HOOPFANATIC
10-15-2010, 02:30 AM
Makes me feel old when not many remember all the lean years before the salad. Man I'm only 46 but I guess I got 30 years of solid coverage. Time Flies.
I never feel spoiled, I just hate it when the team loses, I do know in the past the mgt. moved a lot quicker to make changes. I'm not talking about during the playoff run stretch but before.

indianapolismarkus
10-15-2010, 02:49 AM
It's nice to see a hoop fanatic that remembers when the 3 point line was instituted that brought us to the modern age. Their needs to be more people like you that have seen how we almost lost the team in the early 80's. If it wasn't for a telathon we would have. We even tried out a girl. We are the only team to try it. The 80's had the Pacers on TV like once a month on channel 4.

Lots of things have changed for the better in the last 30 years. Go Pacers!

Putnam
10-15-2010, 08:30 AM
Nice post.


I'd just like to comment on this part:


Making the playoffs for 16 out of 17 years has spoiled the fans. The novice fans need to appreciate how hard it is to build a playoff team.


Is it really the novice fans who need to alter their appreciation? As I read this forum over the past couple of years, it is more often the mature fans in their 40s who have a sour, intransigent attitude and a clouded judgment.

The younger folks here have some odd notions about punctuation, but their attitude toward the team seems more open-minded and hopeful than that of the older guys.



.

Trophy
10-15-2010, 08:37 AM
I like what we have going for us.

Between the history, the fact that we play in the state of basketball, the fact that we were able to stay in the state of basketball, and the future of this franchise.

I was thrilled when we got Darren. He was the best PG, IMO for us to acquire.

Unclebuck
10-15-2010, 08:49 AM
I became a fan in the 80's, so I'm not spoiled. I'll never forget being a 13 year old, maybe 14 year old and thinking that Wayman was going to lead us to big things. Of course to me and at the time big things were maybe a playoff berth and a .500 record. Making the playoffs seemed like an impossibility. And making out of the first round of the playoffs seemed like only something for the other NBA teams.

Imagine being a Pacers fan since around the age of 9 and not getting out of the first round of the playoffs until the age of 25. That is the way it was for those in my age group - too young to remember the ABA but became fans in the late 70's. Because of my age I was bitter towards the ABA Pacers for a number of years, just because for about the first 10 years of me being a fan of the pacers all I ever heard about were the good old days of the ABA

indianapolismarkus
10-15-2010, 08:51 AM
Sometimes we all need to look back at the history to get a greater perspective. The brawl have changed this franchise dramatically. Every team goes through its up and downs. We've been down lately but not as far down as most teams get. Things are looking up and we all should be glad.

Everyone together now. Go Pacers!

grace
10-15-2010, 09:21 AM
I thinks someone has Colts fans and Pacers fans confused.

duke dynamite
10-15-2010, 09:24 AM
I thinks someone has Colts fans and Pacers fans confused.
I'm just trying to gather if there is really anything we haven't heard before in the OP.

Dr. Awesome
10-15-2010, 09:37 AM
A55 is alive...let's bring it. It helps the team....period.

Objctive number one for Area 55 might need to be finding a new abbreviation...

Unclebuck
10-15-2010, 09:38 AM
I think overall Pacers fans are no longer spoiled - they might have been a little bit back in 2000.

I do think Colts fans are spoiled right now

MyFavMartin
10-15-2010, 10:15 AM
Since our best season ('03-'04, 61-21), the Pacers have averaged 37 wins over the last six years.

We were spoiled in the 90's with 5 appearances in the ECF Finals, but sports are cyclical. As bad as the Pacers and Colts were in the 80's, drafting at the beginning is supposed to lead to recovery. One might argue that it should have happened more quickly, but bad drafts and trades and injuries happen.

JOB isn't Carlisle, Bird or Brown, but at least he's not Isaiah. I'm not sure after the Artest debacle that one can say Pacer fans are spoiled. We were on the cusp of a championship and it didn't happen. If anything, we're recovering cynics and have much bitterness. The 90's, Jordan and the Bulls dominated and the Eastern Conference was extremely tough (Knicks, Pistons).

As for the 2006 draft, there was Rondo, Farmar and Milsap available. With Shawne, it was a roll of the dice. Same with Harrison.

I like our team and am looking forward to the season. We're young and coming out of rebuilding.

I really think that Roy is past his awkward stage, though. His fouls decreased last year dramatically and he's really worked hard the last 2 years to develop his game and body.

Collison, Granger, and Roy are three really good pieces. This season we'll see who else can step up.

Trophy
10-15-2010, 10:53 AM
I thinks someone has Colts fans and Pacers fans confused.

There was a time where Pacers fans were spoiled and Colts fans were not.

Hopefully it can all balance out.

RWB
10-15-2010, 11:56 AM
Nice post.

Is it really the novice fans who need to alter their appreciation? As I read this forum over the past couple of years, it is more often the mature fans in their 40s who have a sour, intransigent attitude and a clouded judgment.

The younger folks here have some odd notions about punctuation, but their attitude toward the team seems more open-minded and hopeful than that of the older guys.

.

Of course it has been many of those mature fans who have shelling out money for a product that was not only inferior, but an embarassment as well. There has been nothing wrong in my opinion with these folks expecting more in value than they have been receiving.

I went through the bad team 80s and I had season tickets. As Buck stated we hoped and longed just to make the playoffs. There was apathy no doubt, but there was not actual hate like just a few years ago. Don't worry this team has finally got over the general hate, still some apathy, but I do get a sense at least the Pacers are now getting back into the morning office conversations.

Even when the Pacers were at their worst and not making the playoffs....there was a 5 season span between when they had played and then finally made it back. If we do not make it to the playoffs this year, it will equal the longest no playoff streak we have had in Pacers (including ABA) history.

Kstat
10-15-2010, 12:03 PM
I'm split on this.

...as a Lions fan, I agree that the Pacers fans are, indeed very, very spoiled. I'd give my right arm for just one .500 season.

...as a Pistons fan? This is like the least memorable season I can remember, repeated over and over again for 30 years.

Hicks
10-15-2010, 12:03 PM
I'm just trying to gather if there is really anything we haven't heard before in the OP.

Originality wasn't the point.

indianapolismarkus
10-15-2010, 02:59 PM
Rebuilding takes about 5 years that's normal.

If we didn't make some nice trades back in 2000 we would have had to start all over then and the fans would have probably understood better.

As fans we are by nature impatient. We don't want to hear "5 year plan" unless your a Nets fan. Even Larry's "3 year plan" has taken some criticism. Maybe we are being too optimistic because our 3 year plan doesn't even end until next year.

Area 55 where cheering loud happens. Go Pacers!

duke dynamite
10-15-2010, 03:02 PM
Originality wasn't the point.
Don't make me make you sit next to me again. :devil:

Putnam
10-15-2010, 03:17 PM
There has been nothing wrong in my opinion with these folks expecting more in value than they have been receiving.

Sure. There's nothing wrong with wanting a better result. Nothing wrong with that at all.

What I said was that some older fans have "a sour, intransigent attitude and a clouded judgment." I think that is true, and that is much less defensible than simply wanting the Pacers to win more games.





.

HeliumFear
10-15-2010, 03:22 PM
Watching the Pacers go from contenders to perenial no man's land shoe ins faster than a speeding falcon punch sure has spoiled me.

indianapolismarkus
10-15-2010, 04:10 PM
Expectations are key

If your expectations for the team didn't change after the brawl then you've set yourself up for disapointment. Having to get rid of O'neal, Artest, Tinsley & Jackson broke our continuity. We have recovered nicely. Wouldn't you take the Pacer roster over the Pistons anyday?

Area 55 is bringing it tonight. Go Pacers!

Kstat
10-15-2010, 04:38 PM
Expectations are key

If your expectations for the team didn't change after the brawl then you've set yourself up for disapointment. Having to get rid of O'neal, Artest, Tinsley & Jackson broke our continuity. We have recovered nicely. Wouldn't you take the Pacer roster over the Pistons anyday?

Let's not call some of our great fans like Uncle Buck, Hoop Fanatic & RWB sour and intransigent.

Area 55 is bringing it tonight. Go Pacers!

Your roster being more attractive than the 27-win pistons is reason for glee?

BillS
10-15-2010, 04:41 PM
Your roster being more attractive than the 27-win pistons is reason for glee?

It's reason to realize things could be worse. :devil:

Putnam
10-15-2010, 04:52 PM
Let's not call some of our great fans like Uncle Buck, Hoop Fanatic & RWB sour and intransigent.

Please don't tie my comment to particular people. I didn't say it to stir discord, but to shift the focus from what you called "novice" fans to what I think is the real problem.

UncleBuck is as clear-headed about the Pacers as anybody. He's the opposite or sour and clouded. He and I are matter and anti-matter of most issues, but I respect the heck out of his basketball judgment.

indianapolismarkus
10-15-2010, 05:23 PM
The Pistons came from Indiana.

We have never beat the Bad Boys in the playoffs and can't wait to get payback. We were on top of the NBA mountain and were kicked off like no other by those hated kids from Detroit with a little help from their fans.

No matter your age anyone can get sour if they've had the wrong expectations.

Area 55 loud and crazy. Go Pacers!

Kstat
10-15-2010, 05:59 PM
The Pistons were taken from Indiana.

We have never beat the Bad Boys in the playoffs and can't wait to get payback. We were on top of the NBA mountain and were kicked off like no other by those hated kids from Detroit with a little help from their fans.

No matter your age anyone can get sour if they've had the wrong expectations.

Area 55 loud and crazy. Go Pacers!

Wow, so 53 years later and you've had a team for %90 of that, and youre still bitter over losing the pistons?

Nobody "took" the pistons from you. You weren't even alive back then. Stop pretending to be offended.

You were also never on top of the nba mountain. Ever. If the pistons had not existed, there's still no guarentee ron wouldnt have self destructed at some other point. This is something else you need to accept.

TooBigNdaPaint
10-15-2010, 06:31 PM
The Pacers win their fist preseason game against a poor Wolves team. Minnesota is trying to win as many preseason games as they can because they know once the regular season starts they will not be winning very often. Through the first three games the Pacers were 0-3 and the Wolves 3-0. Not because Minnesota has a better team but because they are in win now mode. They are feeling the backlash from their fans because they are a poorly run franchise that can never get over the fact that the Lakers should be their team.

Jim O'Brien is also fealing the pressure. After tinkering with the lineups in the second half of the first three games with horrible results he's had to shore up the rotations so the novice fans will stop bickering. After three meaningless preseason games he's had to stop experimenting with the lineups and stop trying to develop the end of the bench.

Indiana has not had a coach for more than four years since Slick Leonard's twelve year stint ended in 1980. We were a poorly run francise untill Donnie Walsh came in the mid 80's. In the early 90's we had a playoff team but couldn't convince a good coach to come here till Lary Brown in the mid 90's. That's when things took off.

We had a nice run that ended in going to the Finals in 2000. Then we made some trades that brought us Jermaine O'neal, Ron Artest and Brad Miller and we made another playoff run. Making the playoffs for 16 out of 17 years has spoiled the fans. The novice fans need to appreciate how hard it is to build a playoff team.

Jim O'Brien has been criticized too harshly by some short sighted fans. We need to realize that we are still in transition and are rebuilding on the fly. We should be happy that Larry Bird talked Jim O'Brien in coming here and that we don't have a rookie coach to go along with our young roster.

It's been a shock to our system that we've gone from a half court team to a running team but we don't have Rik Smits and Jermaine O'neal in the post commanding double teams. Roy Hibbert is trying to be our man in the post but is still young, awkward and still learning but has a work ethic that gives us confidence that he'll succeed. Don't forget that it took Rik Smits and Jermaine O'neal some time to get it going.

Larry Bird has took some unfair criticism also. The biggest blemish on his record is drafting Shawne Williams 17th in 2006 but look at his contemporaries. Twelve through twenty look like this: Hilton Armstrong, Thabo Sefolosha, Ronnie Brewer, Cedric Simmons, Rodney Carney, Shawne Williams, Oleksiy Pecherov, Quincy Douby, Renaldo Balkman. To be fair Donnie Walsh was in charge until april 2008.

The Pacers have turned Jermaine O'neal, Troy Murphy and Shawne Williams into Roy Hibbert, T.J. Ford, Darren Collison and Magnum Rolle. They have drafted Danny Granger, Tyler Hansbrough and Paul George in the first round at 17, 13, 10. Also have turned Jarryd Bayless into Josh McRoberts and Brandon Rush. Then we have had two second round steals in A.J. Price and Lance Stephenson. The last time we've had a second round steal was Antonio Davis in 1990.

Larry Bird's three year plan is looking good. After this year when we will have some cap space to hopefully bring in a nice veteran in a slim class of free agents and have another chance to draft between 17 and 10. We will finally have the roster that we can be proud of for many years.

These last few years have been frustrating and in alot of ways mirror the late 80's. We should be thankful that we've bottomed out at only 32 wins. Do you remember the four strait 20 win seasons we had in the early to mid 80's. That monumental failure set up the success in the 90's.

The Pacers have spoiled us. Who else could build a team without any top 9 picks. It's been 20 years since we've had a season so bad. How many teams can say that?

We were 27th in the league in attendence last year. The Colts are bringing in 50,000+ fans every game but do you think once Manning retires the fans will be patient while they get another quarterback?

In 1985 the year of the first lottery many fans jumped on the bandwagon when we got the second pick and were rewarded in the 90's. By the mid 90's it was hard to get a good seat. People need to reserve there seats now because conventual wisdom will tell you that starting next year good seats will be getting harder to come by.

Let's not be novice short sighted spoiled fans. Let's enjoy the run the Pacers are about to make and appreciate the hard work this organization has done.

Me and my fellow area 55ers will see you at the game. Go Pacers!

Best read in a long time and much much better than the average post that I've been reading here every day, 7 days per week. In fact, I'm beginning to get very tired reading on this site because there are so many worthless posts from weak-minded fans with NO perspective whatsoever. Just whine whine whine about LB, JOB, Rush, Lance, or whoever else is having a bad night or bad game or bad start to a young life.

Eleazar
10-15-2010, 06:33 PM
Is it really a bad thing to be spoiled? Shouldn't a fan want there team to go undefeated and win the championship every year? To me that is what I want to see every year. I know it won't happen, but it doesn't mean I am going to lower my standards. I expect the teams I'm a fan of to excel and if they don't I'm not going to be happy until they do. Do you really think that it is best for the organization if we just passively root for the team no matter how terrible they are? Selling out every night even if they never win? Being spoiled isn't a bad thing.

grace
10-15-2010, 06:51 PM
There was a time where Pacers fans were spoiled and Colts fans were not.

Hopefully it can all balance out.

Personally I'd be thrilled if we could both be spoiled.

Naptown_Seth
10-15-2010, 11:20 PM
Same fans that didn't go to watch a Pacers team featuring 4 future or present all-stars capable of going the full 5 games against a top 2-3 team with multiple HOFs on the roster (Reggie, Det, Dale, Rik).

Why should they be any different now. For you kids in your 18-25 range you are experiencing nearly the same thing we went through from 88-93. Even now you look back and go "when they got Larry Brown and got good..." as if the squad before then stunk or something. Bob Hill was our Isiah, Brown was our Carlisle. The talent was there, it just needed to be coached properly.

And at the time you couldn't get 2 people to care about going to games.


They didn't sell out season Colts tix till they were making runs at undefeated seasons. Just getting 10 wins and into the playoffs with Manning, Edge and Marvin wasn't enough to convince enough fans to sell out all 8 home games, let alone sell them out as season ticket packages.

indianapolismarkus
10-16-2010, 01:12 AM
2004 Pacers were championship contenders.

That season we were first in the central division, first seed in the eastern conference with the best record in the league. We had a relatively young squad that could compete for a championship for years to come.

We lose in the conferance finals to the eventual champion Pistons. The next year we can't wait to get payback on those hated Pistons for upsetting us. The ninth game of the next season we go into Detroit to prove a point.

We stomped them 97-82 it wasn't even close. Wallace gets frustrated at the end of the game and tries to pick a fight with Artest. Then the infamous fan that throws that multi-million dollar beer. Ron did what us Pacer fans would have done if we were there. Find that guy and kick his tail. Ron wait, that's our job not yours! He couldn't wait.

That is the single most devistating moment in Pacer history. That probably cost Reggie a ring. That day was a small bump in the road for Detroit compared to Indiana. We have carried that pain for years and will get payback someday.

Area 55 was loud tonight. Go Pacers

pacer4ever
10-16-2010, 01:34 AM
Same fans that didn't go to watch a Pacers team featuring 4 future or present all-stars capable of going the full 5 games against a top 2-3 team with multiple HOFs on the roster (Reggie, Det, Dale, Rik).

Why should they be any different now. For you kids in your 18-25 range you are experiencing nearly the same thing we went through from 88-93. Even now you look back and go "when they got Larry Brown and got good..." as if the squad before then stunk or something. Bob Hill was our Isiah, Brown was our Carlisle. The talent was there, it just needed to be coached properly.

And at the time you couldn't get 2 people to care about going to games.


They didn't sell out season Colts tix till they were making runs at undefeated seasons. Just getting 10 wins and into the playoffs with Manning, Edge and Marvin wasn't enough to convince enough fans to sell out all 8 home games, let alone sell them out as season ticket packages.

they will come back just wait till we start winning this city is a band wagon city.

Kstat
10-16-2010, 02:36 AM
2004 Pacers were championship contenders.

That season we were first in the central division, first seed in the eastern conference with the best record in the league. We had a relatively young squad that could compete for a championship for years to come.

We lose in the conferance finals to the eventual champion Pistons. The next year we can't wait to get payback on those hated Pistons for upsetting us. The ninth game of the next season we go into Detroit to prove a point.

We stomped them 97-82 it wasn't even close. Wallace gets frustrated at the end of the game and tries to pick a fight with Artest. Then the infamous fan that throws that multi-million dollar beer. Ron does what us Pacer fans would have done if we were there. Find that guy and kick his tail. Ron wait, that's our job not yours! He couldn't wait.

That is the single most devistating moment in Pacer history. That probably cost Reggie a ring. That day was a small bump in the road for Detroit compared to Indiana. We have carried that pain for years and will get payback someday.

Area 55 was loud tonight. Go Pacers
Quite the self-serving version of history you have there....

I dont discuss 11/19 here, and I wont now. But spare me the cheap thetrics and the self serving revisionist history, please.

indianapolismarkus
10-16-2010, 04:00 AM
Is it really a bad thing to be spoiled? Shouldn't a fan want there team to go undefeated and win the championship every year? To me that is what I want to see every year. I know it won't happen, but it doesn't mean I am going to lower my standards. I expect the teams I'm a fan of to excel and if they don't I'm not going to be happy until they do. Do you really think that it is best for the organization if we just passively root for the team no matter how terrible they are? Selling out every night even if they never win? Being spoiled isn't a bad thing.

Yes, it is bad to be spoiled. Fans that are spoiled lack appreciation. No, a true fan shouldn't want to go undefeated and win a championship every year. Because your right it won't happen. Yes, it does mean you need to lower or raise your standards or expectations every year. Yes, you should expect your team to excel or live up to their potential. No, you shouldn't passively root for your team. If your team is bad you need to know why. If a team is bad because it is mismanaged then don't go. If your team is bad because it's a natural progression like someone retires or gets hurt then yes, a true fan goes anyway.

Area 55 where we root for the home team. Go Pacers!

Kstat
10-16-2010, 04:08 AM
What do Pacer fans think of my cheap, theatrical, self-serving, revision of history?

Ive been here for 7 years. You've been here for 7 days. It's one thing to resent the Pistons,but you cross the line of reality when you paint ron artest as a folk hero.


Im not even referring to 11/19 when I ask this: has any player ever done more damage to his own team than Ron Artest?

Putnam
10-16-2010, 08:04 AM
Ron does what us Pacer fans would have done if we were there. Find that guy and kick his tail.

Nope. Never in a million years.


What do Pacer fans think of my cheap, theatrical, self-serving, revision of history?

I think you are wrong about it. (And there's nothing to be gained by taunting KStat.)



has any player ever done more damage to his own team than Ron Artest?

Shoeless Joe Jackson, maybe? Or Gil Gamesh.

Kaufman
10-16-2010, 08:25 AM
Hey Kstat is Dave Bing your dad?

You know, grow up. You just started posting here. Nothing wrong with healthy debate but there is no need to talk about who people's parents are.

BlueNGold
10-16-2010, 09:39 AM
Overall nice article. I don't agree with the basic premise though. I don't think most Pacer fans at this stage are spoiled.

I do agree that those who lived through the Reggie years were spoiled by the team. However, I think that has worn off for the most part. IMO, most people have adjusted their expectations. I know I would just like to see the team improve even if they don't make the playoffs and stop doing silly off court stuff. Is that asking too much?

Anyway, the Pacers have lost a lot of fans over the last decade. The people who have stuck with this team through the trials deserve more credit than being called spoiled.

By the way, I don't hear that much criticism of Bird. I think he's done a good job with some exceptions.

As for JOb, I think people have a legitimate argument for criticizing some of things he's said and done especially last year. Yes, the criticism has been way over the top. But some of his decisions have been very questionable, starting with Dahntay Jones playing PF over the irrelevant Josh McRoberts. If the team is attempting to rebuild, tell me why a) that happened and b) he is now all of the sudden so awesome?

indianapolismarkus
10-16-2010, 03:20 PM
Overall nice article. I don't agree with the basic premise though. I don't think most Pacer fans at this stage are spoiled.

I do agree that those who lived through the Reggie years were spoiled by the team. However, I think that has worn off for the most part. IMO, most people have adjusted their expectations. I know I would just like to see the team improve even if they don't make the playoffs and stop doing silly off court stuff. Is that asking too much?

Anyway, the Pacers have lost a lot of fans over the last decade. The people who have stuck with this team through the trials deserve more credit than being called spoiled.

By the way, I don't hear that much criticism of Bird. I think he's done a good job with some exceptions.

As for JOb, I think people have a legitimate argument for criticizing some of things he's said and done especially last year. Yes, the criticism has been way over the top. But some of his decisions have been very questionable, starting with Dahntay Jones playing PF over the irrelevant Josh McRoberts. If the team is attempting to rebuild, tell me why a) that happened and b) he is now all of the sudden so awesome?

Great job Blue and Gold!

Finally someone has called me out on such an inflamatory name of an article. Sadly, people are more likely to read something negative than positive. It's much easier to talk trash than to talk rationally.

You're right on so many points: Pacer fans are not spoiled at this stage. Most people have adjusted their expectations. Pacers need to stop doing silly off court stuff. The people that have stuck with this team deserve credit. Bird has done a good job. People have a legitimate argument for criticizing O'Brien for things he had said and done.

I enjoy talking to other like minded individuals that love and know the Pacers. I'm sure most of you do also. Pacer Digest is the best place ever invented to talk Indiana professional basketball and has the best Pacer fans. I really look forward to this season and discussing with my peers the in's and out's of Pacer basketball.

Area 55 is ready for the home opener. Go Pacers!

Mr_Smith
10-16-2010, 03:43 PM
The pacers haven't done anything since reaching the ECF in 2004. Don't understand how pacer fans are spoiled. I like how the pacers are turning the corner though. Otherwise, I love the article!

xBulletproof
10-16-2010, 03:59 PM
Don't make me make you sit next to me again. :devil:

This came across .... slightly creepy. :laugh:

indianapolismarkus
10-16-2010, 05:54 PM
The pacers haven't done anything since reaching the ECF in 2004. Don't understand how pacer fans are spoiled. I like how the pacers are turning the corner though. Otherwise, I love the article!

The Pacers have done a lot since reaching the 2004 ECF. They have changed the culture of the team. Indiana will not tolarate knuckle heads. The fans showed their displeasure and the francise responded. No other team have been through what we've been through. No other team could have handled it better than we've handled it.

If I could edit the title I would put "Pacer fans were spoiled". Making the playoffs 16 out of 17 years was nice. That streak would have been bigger if it wasn't for unforseen circumstances. Contrast that with our early NBA days when we didn't make the playoffs 11 out of 13 years.

You're right the Pacers are turning the corner. Go Pacers!

Kstat
10-16-2010, 07:01 PM
1. You can edit the title.

2. Not many people care a whole lot about making the playoffs a lot when there's no championship at the end of the rainbow. When there are more years since your last championship than there are teams in the NBA, you're not spoiled. The Pacers had a very long run of success, but they never reached their goal. There's nothing about that era that bought the Pacers a free pass for what's gone on since 2005.

3. All that's changed in the last 5 years is that management has crapped all over the franchise and the fanbase. They've changed the culture of the team from a winning one to a losing one. They're just now realizing how hard it is to stop the chain of misfortune they themselves set in motion. Stop trying to paint this as rosy when it isn't.

I give people a lot of credit for sticking it out through this, but I don't blame anybody that's been jaded by recent events. I also find it condescending to tell fans that have been out of the first round exactly twice in the last decade that they've had too much success.

BringJackBack
10-16-2010, 07:07 PM
1. You can edit the title.

2. Not many people care a whole lot about making the playoffs a lot when there's no championship at the end of the rainbow. When there are more years since your last championship than there are teams in the NBA, you're not spoiled. The Pacers had a very long run of success, but they never reached their goal. There's nothing about that era that bought the Pacers a free pass for what's gone on since 2005.

3. All that's changed in the last 5 years is that management has crapped all over the franchise and the fanbase. They've changed the culture of the team from a winning one to a losing one. They're just now realizing how hard it is to stop the chain of misfortune they themselves set in motion. Stop trying to paint this as rosy when it isn't.

I give people a lot of credit for sticking it out through this, but I don't blame anybody that's been jaded by recent events.

Lol. Resident Pistons fan is a little jealous that we have a decent future.

And for the record, DW crapped all over the franchise, not Bird, not Morway.

Kstat
10-16-2010, 07:11 PM
Bird and Donnie both played parts. I realize that people will gravitate towards defending Bird's involvement because he's still here and Donnie isn't, but the truth is Bird has been here a while and we don't know how much involvement he had in the deals that were made when Donnie was still here.

Bird isn't exactly Matt Millen, though. He's made some quality moves, but he's also made some poor decisions. Hibbert was a great pick, and Collison was a great trade.

As for jealously, I'm not and won't be jealous. I wouldn't be here for this long if I were. It is what it is. The Pacers and Pistons are both cellar teams, albeit the Pacers are a slight favorite to finish 4th with a more well-balanced roster.

indianapolismarkus
10-17-2010, 12:57 AM
1. You can edit the title.

2. Not many people care a whole lot about making the playoffs a lot when there's no championship at the end of the rainbow. When there are more years since your last championship than there are teams in the NBA, you're not spoiled. The Pacers had a very long run of success, but they never reached their goal. There's nothing about that era that bought the Pacers a free pass for what's gone on since 2005.

3. All that's changed in the last 5 years is that management has crapped all over the franchise and the fanbase. They've changed the culture of the team from a winning one to a losing one. They're just now realizing how hard it is to stop the chain of misfortune they themselves set in motion. Stop trying to paint this as rosy when it isn't.

I give people a lot of credit for sticking it out through this, but I don't blame anybody that's been jaded by recent events. I also find it condescending to tell fans that have been out of the first round exactly twice in the last decade that they've had too much success.

(If someone could school me on how to change the thread title I'd appreciate it. Maybe a seven year PD vet can help a brother out.)

Many fans do care a whole lot about making the playoffs but you also need momentum so when you get there you can have hope of going farther. If you're only chasing championships at the end of the rainbow then you should take your talents to south beach.

In the last 30 years their have been only eight different champs. In the decade previous their were also eight different champs. The 70's saw the NBA almost fold. The Bird and Magic rivalry saved the league. MJ then took it to another level.

The NBA loves super teams. They make more money and draw more interest. Greed has hurt the league and will hopfully be set right in the next CBA.

The NBA is not a equal opportunity league. The Clippers should change their name and move to Seatle. If you measure spoiledness by championships won over a 30 year period then more than two thirds of the league have not tasted it. If you measure by how a team is run then one third.

Look at Utah they have been a relatively well run franchise. They got lucky and drafted two HOFers that played there a long time and never won it all. They bottomed out, got D.Will and are now making another playoff run. If your a Jazz fan then you can be proud of your team.

Whats gone on since 2005 have been a complete rebuild for the Pacers. What's going on in Cleveland since James left? A rebuild. Those fans may never see a championship. They finally lead the league in wins, get upset in the playoffs and that's it. Their native son leaves, total heartbreak!

Cav fans must be fealing similar to how we felt when one man's decision cost us our hoop dream.

Whats gone on in Chicago since 1998? A couple rebuilds. Jordan retires, the Bulls bottom out and they get the first pick in the draft to start building. They've had six years out, three years in, a bad year and then the number one overall pick AGAIN with a 33 win team.

Whats gone on in Milwaukee since Mr. Sky Hook told the city that they didn't have enough culture.

Whats gone on in Detroit since 2004? Sad leadership from all three major sports. Pistons, Tigers and Lions. Detroit is where a HOF running back in his prime retires to get away from that city. Detroit is where you draft Darko and trade Billups for AI.

All that changed in the last five years is that we have got out of our crap but you'll be in yours for awhile. We have changed our culture from ghetto to fine and upstanding. The Bad Boys like being ghetto and because the Lion & Tigers carry such a huge chain of misfortune they don't feel so bad.

You don't like when things are painted rosey? Sometimes condescention is hard to decipher.

Go Pacers!

indianapolismarkus
10-17-2010, 03:40 AM
they will come back just wait till we start winning this city is a band wagon city.

Indiana fans will be back. They left because they are showing their displeasure over "the incident". They have a legitimate gripe of how the Pacers embarrassed the whole state of Indiana. In the distant past our fans showed displeasure because we were poorly run.

The band wagon city right now is Miami. You'll see by how many Heat fans show up at the Fieldhouse.

Me and my fellow Area 55ers are going to pump you up. Go Pacers!

pacer4ever
10-17-2010, 03:53 AM
Indiana fans will be back. They left because they are showing their displeasure over "the incident". They have a legitimate gripe of how the Pacers embarrassed the whole state of Indiana. In the distant past our fans showed displeasure because we were poorly run.

The band wagon city right now is Miami. You'll see by how many Heat fans show up at the Fieldhouse.

Me and my fellow Area 55ers are going to pump you up. Go Pacers!

ya i ll be right there with you cheerin on te pacers . But idk if they will be liked or hated. Lots of my friends who lied LeBron and Wade dont likem anymore.

Kstat
10-17-2010, 03:56 AM
Whats gone on in Detroit since 2004? Sad leadership from all three major sports. Pistons, Tigers and Lions. Detroit is where a HOF running back in his prime retires to get away from that awful city. Detroit is where you draft Darko and trade Billups for AI. That's why some people move to NC.



Yeah, that's why I left Detroit, because we drafted Darko and it's an awful place. You are ridiculous.

Go sing some Ron Artest folk songs.

indianapolismarkus
10-17-2010, 04:08 AM
ya i ll be right there with you cheerin on te pacers . But idk if they will be liked or hated. Lots of my friends who lied LeBron and Wade dont likem anymore.

You go boy! You and your friends sound like true Indiana fans it makes me feel all good inside. You are a good example of the next generation of Pacer fan. Keep it up. It sounds like you already have made a commitment to the Pacers with your name and all. You're a gem, you remind me of myself when I was your age.

I love your story about Lance. See you at the game.

Area 55 where Pacer fans for life happens. Go Pacers!

indianapolismarkus
10-17-2010, 04:25 AM
Yeah, that's why I left Detroit, because we drafted Darko and it's an awful place. You are ridiculous.

Go sing some Ron Artest folk songs.

Anyone that has a Detroit avatar needs to be able to dish it out but also take it.

If you've been adopted by PD and are on our 2K11 squad then I'm on your side.

I liked your cheap, theatrical, self-serving revision of history line. That's classic!

Area 55 where singing folk songs happens. Go Pacers!

indianapolismarkus
10-17-2010, 07:08 AM
Ive been here for 7 years. You've been here for 7 days. It's one thing to resent the Pistons,but you cross the line of reality when you paint ron artest as a folk hero.

Im not even referring to 11/19 when I ask this: has any player ever done more damage to his own team than Ron Artest?

Ron Artest is a cult hero. He's a mentally weak individual that can be baited into poor decisions.

Some people it takes seven years to build up credibility and seven days to ruin it.

I think LeBron has done more damage to the Cavs than Ron to the Pacers.

Area 55 where true fans reside. Go Pacers!