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El Pacero
10-14-2010, 03:06 AM
Starters shine, but subs fail to surface (http://www.indystar.com/article/20101014/SPORTS04/10140413/1062/SPORTS04)
By Mike Wells


Jim O'Brien is done using every player available in games.

The Indiana Pacers coach is tightening his rotation and going with the players he said will give the team its best chance of winning during the regular season.

O'Brien liked the production from his starting lineup Wednesday night, but the Pacers' bench play was another story in their 98-86 victory over the Minnesota Timberwolves at Conseco Fieldhouse.

"In a perfect world, everybody would play, but if we want to win, we all need to be tied in together, and the best way to do that is to have the most experienced guys out there," starting center Roy Hibbert said. "Once in a while, you sprinkle in a young or new guy in there, but the core guys need to be on the court for us to win. We can't go five in and five out."

O'Brien started what should be his opening night lineup -- Darren Collison, Mike Dunleavy, Danny Granger, Josh McRoberts and Hibbert. Jeff Foster, James Posey, A.J. Price, Paul George and Tyler Hansbrough were brought off the bench.

All five starters played at least 26 minutes.

Granger led all scorers with 30 points and added 11 rebounds. Hibbert contributed 16 points, 14 rebounds and seven blocks. McRoberts was two points shy of a third double-double. He finished with eight points and 11 rebounds.

The Pacers led by as many as 20 points in the second half.

"This gives us better preparation for the season for when the games start counting," Dunleavy said. "There's no question it's going to help because it won't be somebody like Danny only playing 20 minutes. We know that won't happen in a regular-season (game)."

O'Brien said he's not sure how deep he plans to go on the bench during the regular season.

"It might depend on the tempo we have established in the game," O'Brien said. "But I would like to have confidence in 10 people. Whether we use all 10 every night is another issue. I would like to have 10 guys that would be ready to play every night."

Who comes off the bench for the Pacers at power forward and center could change.

O'Brien wasn't happy with the production he got from the backups at those positions.

Foster played only six minutes because the Pacers were outscored by 11 points when he was in the game, O'Brien said.

Solomon Jones played nine minutes at center in the second half in place of the Foster.

Hansbrough is getting the first shot at backing up McRoberts, but it's uncertain how long it will take him to be ready to fill that role after being limited to 29 games last season because of a series of ailments.

The Pacers got two points on 1-of-6 shooting, two turnovers and five rebounds out of their backup power forwards and centers.

Posey and Granger could end up getting minutes at power forward. Both players have experience at the position.

"I have to find out who our backups will be at the center and power forward spots," O'Brien said. "I'm searching, frankly. . . . Right now those spots are wide open. We are alarmingly thin up front."

pacerfreak
10-14-2010, 05:40 AM
How long has this second unit actually played together?

rexnom
10-14-2010, 05:52 AM
By the way, that "subs fail to surface" line is brilliant. Some of Mike Wells's best work.

BringJackBack
10-14-2010, 06:33 AM
That last quote by O'Brien sounded like us on here.

But I do think that Foster and Hansbrough should be our backups with the exception of Danny or George if there are matchup issues.

Assuming that Roy and Josh will be player 32-36 minutes a night, we won't really need all that much quality backup work this year anyway.

Mackey_Rose
10-14-2010, 06:36 AM
That last quote by O'Brien sounded like us on here.

But I do think that Foster and Hansbrough should be our backups with the exception of Danny or George if there are matchup issues.

Assuming that Roy and Josh will be player 32-36 minutes a night, we won't really need all that much quality backup work this year anyway.

I don't know how we can put Foster in there. As much as I hate to say it, even Sol looks like a better option right now.

BringJackBack
10-14-2010, 06:41 AM
Meh, I mean Foster can still get decent rebounds, and he is a good passer out of the high post (all things that Solly can't do). He's not consistent anymore, but 1/5 nights he'll bring his offensive rebounding to help us out.

But yeah, I know what you mean. We could really use someone decent like ANDERSON VAREJAO!!

Mr_Smith
10-14-2010, 07:38 AM
I couldn't agree with Roy any better

Trophy
10-14-2010, 07:58 AM
Paul had a pretty good game finishing with 10 points.

I was actually a little disappointed that Tyler didn't score and A.J. only had 2.

Also, I'd rather see JOB put in Magnum before Solo and give Magnum more time since Solo is probably the odd man out.

Mackey_Rose
10-14-2010, 08:23 AM
Also, I'd rather see JOB put in Magnum before Solo and give Magnum more time since Solo is probably the odd man out.

While I also would rather see Magnum than Solo, I think you are making a pretty big assumption there, especially after the so-called "regular rotations" last night.

Trophy
10-14-2010, 08:30 AM
While I also would rather see Magnum than Solo, I think you are making a pretty big assumption there, especially after the so-called "regular rotations" last night.

I don't think Magnum is a rotation player, but since he's young and is bigger and can do more than Solo, I'd rather play him.

I think the 5 players that came off the bench last night are going to be the 5 that will be in the rotation.

It's seems like JOB doesn't have much interest in playing Brandon as much anymore and would rather use James for his shooting.

Mackey_Rose
10-14-2010, 08:37 AM
I don't think Magnum is a rotation player, but since he's young and is bigger and can do more than Solo, I'd rather play him.

Magnum is definitely not bigger than Sol. As skinny as Sol is, Magnum is even skinnier.


I think the 5 players that came off the bench last night are going to be the 5 that will be in the rotation.

I would be surprised if JOB goes with a true 10 man rotation. I think it will be much smaller. I don't see 10 players capable of contributing right now. More like 8 or 9 depending on the effectiveness and health of Dunleavy. I think you'll see a lot of McRoberts at the 5 and Granger at the 4, but I really don't like the thought of that, just what is going to be necessary with the lack of depth in the front court.

Collison/Price
Dunleavy/Rush
Granger/George
McRoberts/Hansbrough
Hibbert


It's seems like JOB doesn't have much interest in playing Brandon as much anymore and would rather use James for his shooting.

I think that was more to prepare for the first 5 games. Once B-Rush has served his suspension he has to be back in the rotation, no questions asked.

graphic-er
10-14-2010, 09:23 AM
I think Foster is fine as the back up center. I mean what do you want your back up center to do? Rebound, hussle, protect the paint, be the enforcer. Atleast Jeff will dunk the damn ball when he's under the basket.

PacerGuy
10-14-2010, 09:46 AM
"We are alarmingly thin up front" does not sound like Solo will be bought out or cut anytime soon, but looking @ min's so far, D.Jones PT in the preseason tells me he is right there w/ TJ as the square pegs on our team. Foster will likely improve, but if he can't win a consistent backup role he will be a real canidate to be moved by the deadline.
I really hope we can make a deal & don't have to cut someone, esp a young guy w/ talent like Lance or Rolle!

On a side note:
2 players I would love to see us add are A.Varejao or M.Gortat.
Varejao could become available if Cle. desides to dump salery, but a lot of teams like him & his price could go too high. Gortat is not exactly thrilled w/ his role in Orl. & they are way over the cap, so there could be a move, but they are also thinking championship, & MG is a great security blanket up front for them. Both are young & have size. I dont see Gortat playing the 4 like AV, but @ 12-18 min's/gm, he would help keep Roy fresh, plus I think he has more game then he has the ability to show in Orl.

Pacers4Life
10-14-2010, 09:53 AM
I think Foster is fine as the back up center. I mean what do you want your back up center to do? Rebound, hussle, protect the paint, be the enforcer. Atleast Jeff will dunk the damn ball when he's under the basket.

Thats funny. Jeff hasn't dunked in 2 1/2 years. But i do want him to be the backup center.

Shame this game wasn't on tv... i listened to most of it via nba.com... it umm 'sounded" good. I liked the tempo we seemed to play with. There was a stretch in the middle of the 3rd quarter where Minny missed at least 4 or 5 in a row and we just got out and RAN with it off the misses. I believe thats how that Granger/George play went down.

I hope most have come back off the ledge... cuz w/e that poll says, there were soooo many of you.

dohman
10-14-2010, 10:40 AM
I have been a huge fan of Jeff over the years but he has lost his athletic ability. That bad back of his has killed his career. He no longer looks to grind or be tough out there. Its a shame he had to rot on this roster because he was the type of player a contender would have wanted and I would of liked to see him win a championship.

Tyler didnt force the issure of scoring tonight. He typically demands the ball int he post and beats his way to the basket. It almost looked like something was wrong or he just did not feel it. I think he has to get going early so he can be in rythm.

We needed AJs shooting last night. We were horrible on threes and he usually shoots daggers.

Speed
10-14-2010, 10:46 AM
Really if Hanbrough doesn't back up JMac, Posey doesn't look like he can guard wings anymore at all to me. I guess Obie will play Posey at PF, I think Posey shouldn't play wing at all, ever. He can't stay in front of anyone at that position anymore. I'd only play him at PF if at all, honestly.

Speed
10-14-2010, 10:49 AM
Interesting how TJ and D Jones have just completely fallen out of the discussion. I understand TJ is hurt, but interesting he's not even considered anymore. D Jones has to be hoping for a trade in a big way.

90'sNBARocked
10-14-2010, 10:52 AM
Man

I really hope Bird is trying to pry either Carl Landry or Jason Thompson from the Kings.

I like Josh but after that we are very thin, and at this point not sure if Tyler will be much more than a 10-15 minue a night energy guy

IUfan4life
10-14-2010, 10:58 AM
"We are alarmingly thin up front" does not sound like Solo will be bought out or cut anytime soon, but looking @ min's so far, D.Jones PT in the preseason tells me he is right there w/ TJ as the square pegs on our team. Foster will likely improve, but if he can't win a consistent backup role he will be a real canidate to be moved by the deadline.
I really hope we can make a deal & don't have to cut someone, esp a young guy w/ talent like Lance or Rolle!

On a side note:
2 players I would love to see us add are A.Varejao or M.Gortat.
Varejao could become available if Cle. desides to dump salery, but a lot of teams like him & his price could go too high. Gortat is not exactly thrilled w/ his role in Orl. & they are way over the cap, so there could be a move, but they are also thinking championship, & MG is a great security blanket up front for them. Both are young & have size. I dont see Gortat playing the 4 like AV, but @ 12-18 min's/gm, he would help keep Roy fresh, plus I think he has more game then he has the ability to show in Orl.


You tihnk Gortat would be happy coming here and backing up Roy Hibbert on a worse team?

90'sNBARocked
10-14-2010, 10:59 AM
You tihnk Gortat would be happy coming here and backing up Roy Hibbert on a worse team?

Nope

Thats his beef in Orlando. He wants to start

Thoreau87
10-14-2010, 11:09 AM
My ideal rotation would be:

Collison/Price/Stephenson
George/Dun/Rush/Stephenson
Granger/Dun/George/Posey
McBobs/Granger/Posey/Hans/Foster
Hibbert/Foster

I included a lot of depth to account for possible lineups rather then backups soley coming in for starters. For example, I'd rather see Granger slide to the 4 before Hans plays significant minutes. Lastly, we should actively pursue trade options for Jones, Ford, Solo, Foster, Dun, Rush, and Posey. With the goal being draft picks, young talent, expiring contracts, or front court depth. Only untradables being DC, DG, Roy, and George. Thoughts?

OakMoses
10-14-2010, 11:38 AM
Interesting comments. I thought Foster and Hansbrough both played really well against Houston. They may have been the only ones who did. Then they both stunk last night, reportedly.

I would guess that once Hans gets fully back into the swing of things, he'll not only be the clear back-up, but will be pushing McRoberts very hard for playing time.

Also, these seem like motivational comments from O'Brien. I'd guess that he's trying to get Foster and Hansbrough a bit fired up.

pacer4ever
10-14-2010, 11:40 AM
How long has this second unit actually played together?

abot a qt combined

pacer4ever
10-14-2010, 11:44 AM
My ideal rotation would be:

Collison/Price/Stephenson
George/Dun/Rush/Stephenson
Granger/Dun/George/Posey
McBobs/Granger/Posey/Hans/Foster
Hibbert/Foster

I included a lot of depth to account for possible lineups rather then backups soley coming in for starters. For example, I'd rather see Granger slide to the 4 before Hans plays significant minutes. Lastly, we should actively pursue trade options for Jones, Ford, Solo, Foster, Dun, Rush, and Posey. With the goal being draft picks, young talent, expiring contracts, or front court depth. Only untradables being DC, DG, Roy, and George. Thoughts?

I love that lineup because how many fastbreaks it brings. Jmac is a really good outlet passer he showed that lastnight. Paul and DG will get out in and run that is my favorite lineup. Posey is to slow to play in this system and he doesnt have a postion anymore. He is too slow to guard a 3 yet to small to guard a four he looks prett bad.

pacer4ever
10-14-2010, 11:46 AM
Really if Hanbrough doesn't back up JMac, Posey doesn't look like he can guard wings anymore at all to me. I guess Obie will play Posey at PF, I think Posey shouldn't play wing at all, ever. He can't stay in front of anyone at that position anymore. I'd only play him at PF if at all, honestly.

In peson Posey looks likes like he is in church league really slow and like i said doesnt have a positon aymore.

PacerGuy
10-14-2010, 11:48 AM
You tihnk Gortat would be happy coming here and backing up Roy Hibbert on a worse team?

Don't know.
I know he would see +/- 5-10 min's more a game & we would not restrict him offensively as much as SVG has. That is one of his biggest concerns. So, to answer your question, seeing more consistent min's & being able to play more freely, would that make him happier? Dont know. Maybe.

Sookie
10-14-2010, 12:40 PM
It's not really that shocking. AJ was due for a not so great shooting night and the rest of the bench hasn't scored in any of preseason. So when AJ doesn't score, it looks pretty bleak.

OakMoses
10-14-2010, 12:50 PM
It's not really that shocking. AJ was due for a not so great shooting night and the rest of the bench hasn't scored in any of preseason. So when AJ doesn't score, it looks pretty bleak.

This is why, I think, when it all shakes out, you'll see Rush at the starting 2 and Dun as the first 2/3 off the bench. Dunleavy thrived in Houston as the primary scorer off the bench.

While I don't think his defense is as terrible as most do, I do think he's clearly a better offensive player. He needs to be in a situation where he's not the 3rd or 4th option all the time. I'd like to see him on the floor as much as possible when either Roy or Danny is out. That way he gets bumped up to the 2nd option and has the green light. If he's healthy, he's probably the best shooter on the team.

The only real problem I see with this is that he's also the only guy we have who's really good at getting the ball to Roy in the post.

pacergod2
10-14-2010, 01:17 PM
The only thing I would contend is that I think Rush is a good passer into the post. I think DJones is decent, but he typically looks to make that pass a lot mroe than most. This is an area I would LOVE to see Danny improve.

The way our offense is flowing this year, I can see more of what Jim is looking to do. I understood his offense, but now I think we are seeing more of what he wants it to look like. There are a lot of passes into the high post. Too many for my liking, but it is definitely a major weapon to keep teams on their toes defensively. I think Rush will be much better in this offense this year, because he will have the ball in his hands a lot more. He will be the one making the pass and cutting to either score or clear space. Instead of being asked to camp out in the corner so Troy can fill the perimeter.

Our team is going to be a much better team this year. We won't win 50 games, but we are definitely going to see major strides this year on both sides of the ball.

Justin Tyme
10-14-2010, 01:26 PM
Atleast Jeff will dunk the damn ball when he's under the basket.


Unfortunately, that's not true. If he would dunk the ball, he wouldn't miss more bunnies in a season than Elmer Fudd does. I have screamed at him for years on missed bunnies b/c he wouldn't dunk the darn ball.

Sookie
10-14-2010, 01:30 PM
This is why, I think, when it all shakes out, you'll see Rush at the starting 2 and Dun as the first 2/3 off the bench. Dunleavy thrived in Houston as the primary scorer off the bench.

While I don't think his defense is as terrible as most do, I do think he's clearly a better offensive player. He needs to be in a situation where he's not the 3rd or 4th option all the time. I'd like to see him on the floor as much as possible when either Roy or Danny is out. That way he gets bumped up to the 2nd option and has the green light. If he's healthy, he's probably the best shooter on the team.

The only real problem I see with this is that he's also the only guy we have who's really good at getting the ball to Roy in the post.

I agree, I also think Dun and AJ play pretty well together. (Probably a result of both being Coach/players kids) So having another scorer off the bench, particularly when the starters don't need it, and having players that play well together off the bench, that can spark the offense and such, would be good.

And then Rush would also better the defense as a starter, and be a nice complimentary player to the high scoring of Collison, Granger, and Hibbert. (And Josh is more aggressive, I just don't think he'll score as much as those three.)

pacergod2
10-14-2010, 01:57 PM
I agree, I also think Dun and AJ play pretty well together. (Probably a result of both being Coach/players kids) So having another scorer off the bench, particularly when the starters don't need it, and having players that play well together off the bench, that can spark the offense and such, would be good.

And then Rush would also better the defense as a starter, and be a nice complimentary player to the high scoring of Collison, Granger, and Hibbert. (And Josh is more aggressive, I just don't think he'll score as much as those three.)

I agree, Sookie.

I think to add to the back-up rotation, if you put Hans, George, and Foster together to fill the second unit, you are looking at a team that has players who can score in a variety of ways and not kill you defensively. They are an intelligent unit that won't turn the ball over a ton, which is very important from your second unit, IMO.

Collison/Rush/Granger/McRoberts/Hibbert is a formidable lineup. You would like to see all of them defend better, but it is a solid defensive unit that can get scoring from anyone. Rush and McRoberts can be fourth and fifth options and still be productive because of defense and athleticism.

Price/George/Dunleavy/Hansborough/Foster is a great second unit. This is a very cognitive group who won't be relied on to play GREAT defense. If this second unit minimizes its turnovers it will be capable of outscoring the other team's second unit on a regular basis. That second team would be a fairly efficient unit and would minimize mistakes, while not overly lack in any aspect of the game. That is a pretty versatile group with Price's abilities to run an offense and shoot from deep. George can be electric, so you let him ply between two stable players. Dunleavy is a facilitator at his core. He does all the little things and on top of that is capable of putting up 20. Hansborough is tough and will get to the line. He has a solid mid range shot. Foster will play the high post well. He and Hans are both very capable rebounders.

I think Posey, Ford, DJones, Rolle, Solo, and Stephenson will be on the short end of the stick when it comes to playing time (at least until somebody gets traded).

BringJackBack
10-14-2010, 03:43 PM
Collison/Rush/Granger/McRoberts/Hibbert is a formidable lineup. You would like to see all of them defend better, but it is a solid defensive unit that can get scoring from anyone. Rush and McRoberts can be
Price/George/Dunleavy/Hansborough/Foster is a great second unit. This is a very cognitive group who won't be relied on to play GREAT defense. If this second unit minimizes its turnovers it will be capable of outscoring the other team's second unit on a regular basis. That second team would be a fairly efficient unit and would minimize mistakes, while not overly lack in any aspect of the game. That is a pretty versatile group with Price's abilities to run an offense and shoot from deep. George can be electric, so you let him ply between two stable players. Dunleavy is a facilitator at his core. He does all the little things and on top of that is capable of putting up 20. Hansborough is tough and will get to the line. He has a solid mid range shot. Foster will play the high post well. He and Hans are both very capable rebounders.

I think Posey, Ford, DJones, Rolle, Solo, and Stephenson will be on the short end of the stick when it comes to playing time (at least until somebody gets traded).

I'd still start Dun because we won't switch out five players at a time.

I would take Dun out at the 9 or 10 minute mark and keep him out for 3-4 minutes. Put George in for a little bit to bring some tough defense with McRoberts to try to get a quick surge and run with DC, DG, and George. Then bring Dun back out with AJ, George, Hans, and Foster. That would be better because he can both start and come off the bench.

So it would go like this:

Starting Lineup
DC/Dun/DG/McBeard/Hibbert

9-10 Minute Mark
DC/PG/DG/McBeard/Hibbert

5-6 Minute Mark
AJ (Or DC)/PG/Dun/Hans/Foster (Or Josh)

I <3 displaying my paragraphs in horizental columns after I post.

BPump33
10-14-2010, 03:45 PM
From Wells:

MikeWellsNBA

Pacers offering Solomon and Dahntay Jones when they talk to teams about 2-for-1 trade scenarios as they try to trim the roster to 15 players

Mackey_Rose
10-14-2010, 03:50 PM
From Wells:

MikeWellsNBA

Pacers offering Solomon and Dahntay Jones when they talk to teams about 2-for-1 trade scenarios as they try to trim the roster to 15 players

Can't wait to see what superstar we're going to get back for that formidable pair.

BringJackBack
10-14-2010, 04:03 PM
I think Dahntay has SOME value to a contending team like Boston, Orlando, or San Antonio.

Dahntay for Marquis (defender for injury prone defender), Daniel Orton (who me must as well cut), or Garrett Temple would be good for us.

vapacersfan
10-14-2010, 04:27 PM
By the way, that "subs fail to surface" line is brilliant. Some of Mike Wells's best work.

I agree, but doesn't the editor write the headlines?

BringJackBack
10-14-2010, 04:32 PM
I agree, but doesn't the editor write the headlines?

Actually yes.

Hicks
10-14-2010, 04:35 PM
By the way, that "subs fail to surface" line is brilliant. Some of Mike Wells's best work.

I hate to say it in response to a compliment, but... doesn't the editor or someone other than Wells write the headlines?

vapacersfan
10-14-2010, 04:46 PM
I hate to say it in response to a compliment, but... doesn't the editor or someone other than Wells write the headlines?

What, do you have me on ingore? :p

Hicks
10-14-2010, 04:59 PM
What, do you have me on ingore? :p

You read every post in a thread before then going back to quote-respond the 2nd reply? I just work my way along.

vapacersfan
10-14-2010, 05:03 PM
You read every post in a thread before then going back to quote-respond the 2nd reply? I just work my way along.

I did not used to do it, but I actually do now.

Then again, things are reeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaalllllyyy slow at work right now

cordobes
10-14-2010, 05:07 PM
From Wells:

MikeWellsNBA

Pacers offering Solomon and Dahntay Jones when they talk to teams about 2-for-1 trade scenarios as they try to trim the roster to 15 players

Which are the teams carrying 14 guaranteed contracts or less as of now?

Boston is actually one of them, but I don't see a realistic deal.

Thoreau87
10-14-2010, 05:27 PM
Which are the teams carrying 14 guaranteed contracts or less as of now?

Boston is actually one of them, but I don't see a realistic deal.

There should be a deal available with Boston. They did lose their defensive stopper with Tony Allen. Dhantay should be able to fill that void. Maybe throw them a 2nd rounder.

cordobes
10-14-2010, 05:40 PM
There should be a deal available with Boston. They did lose their defensive stopper with Tony Allen. Dhantay should be able to fill that void. Maybe throw them a 2nd rounder.

Would Dhantay Jones beat Delonte West or Marquis Daniels (not to mention 1st round pick Avery Bradley, who has the reputation of being a good defender)? Do you think he's better than those guys? If so, is he better to the point of offsetting Solomon's contract (and S. Jones would be completely redundant, he'd probably be cut by Boston anyway)?

I wouldn't answer yes to all those questions. The major problem would be matching contracts anyway. Boston doesn't have trade exceptions and they wouldn't trade Perkins or Nate Robinson to get this done. You'd need a 3rd team. I really don't think Ainge would have much interest on those guys at this point of the season.

BringJackBack
10-14-2010, 05:47 PM
Cordobes, yeah but Marquis is injury prone, and Dahntay might bring that Tony Allen type game to you guys.

Tom White
10-15-2010, 09:24 AM
Cordobes, yeah but Marquis is injury prone, and Dahntay might bring that Tony Allen type game to you guys.

One of a few reasons the Pacers should not want him.