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Kaufman
10-12-2010, 09:59 PM
I'm astonished nobody has brought this up but its been something I've been thinking about for some time now... I don't post here much anymore but I read daily.

For those that don't know me, I've been a fan since 1989. I think that is the year Indy Geezer was born. I grew up with Chuck, Reggie, Rik, Detlef, Vern Fleming, Dale. I miss those guys.

So I have been feeling disappointed in Danny since the all star appearance and winning the most improved player award.

It started back when he posted on here a few years ago to recruit for his basketball camp. I was excited to see him reaching out, but then equally disappointed when we never heard from him again. We've seen others reach out and become involved, Mark Boyle, and indirectly Roy. I was hoping for more involvement from him but I felt like he really just used this board as a free advertisement alone. There was little give back to us.

I have lived out of Indianapolis since 2005. Where I currently live, I hear the name Antoine Walker commonly associated with Danny. Good guy with good basketball skills who all too commonly settles for the three point shot. All other skills forgotten about.

Also, this summer was a major disappointment for me with regards to Danny:
1) World Championships. As kstat eluded to, great honor to be named to the team even if he was riding the pine. But the bigger thing that I expected was for it to light a fire under him and in his heart. I really expected him to come out this preseason and really light it up in every dimension. We've read that Danny often blows preseason off, but given his summer, I think this was the preseason to really lead by example. His teammates and coaches all watched and know what happened to him this summer and I think he should have something to prove to them, if not himself. I really expected him to come out against Memphis and two people involved in the summer games - Haddadi and Rudy Gay.
I know it is just preseason, but this is a team that needs to start winning and feeling the importance of what winning is. And the tone is set by the leader who SHOULD be Danny, but I'm not sure if he really is inside the locker room.

2) Neither here nor there, but I didn't care for the deodorant comment. Didn't reflect well on the Pacers nor himself.

Again, I'm not privy to the local market media and I might be off on my thoughts about Danny and his attitude. I've not forgotten the day when he busted up his teeth a few years ago, but would he do it again?

I've noticed on this very board people suggesting that Danny is not off limits to a trade. This never would have been spoken of 1-2 years ago, especially here. Why has this attitude arisen?

Again, I know it is preseason and there is a lot of bball to be played. But these have been some of my thoughts for the last one year or so.

I also know there are some major league Danny apologists on this board (I know who you are and you know who you are), so please don't drown out my thoughts, I'd like an intelligent discussion. Please no insults. And no, I don't want this to turn into a discussion about JOB either, please.

Infinite MAN_force
10-12-2010, 10:05 PM
I just don't believe you can read much into pre-season, especially with Danny. I also think he was injured for much of last year which contributed to some of his playing woes. I seem to remember a stretch late when he had seemed to get healthy and his play became a lot better, we also won some games in that stretch... go figure.

Wait and see approach. He should be healthy now, he has better talent around him, this is the make or break year for him. Too early to speculate.

Kaufman
10-12-2010, 10:08 PM
Thanks for your comments IMF, I appreciate it. I think you might be right with regards to early season but I'm not sure you actually read what I wrote?

I think it is really important for Danny to step up during the preseason - especially for all of the new players and given how disappointing his offseason bball participation was.

Mr_Smith
10-12-2010, 10:10 PM
I'll wait until the season before I judge Danny. BTW, I think Danny is showing good leadership skills as he called up Brandon Rush and Lance Stephenson and got on them for their off the court issues. Its still a wait and see approach.

1984
10-12-2010, 10:22 PM
Two thoughts about Danny: [1] Danny isn't a disappointment. Danny is playing in a league that knows who he is and what he wants to do. Each night he faces the best defender and sometimes a double team. Danny hasn't had a lot of support because of a team that is often injured, without experience, and seldom consistent. I think this is one reason Danny settles for perimeter shots. It is much easier to catch the ball from the outlet and shoot than drop your shoulder and drive. This is something Danny could learn from Reggie. Reggie didn't always shoot the three. He would often pump fake his defender, drive, and finish with a nasty running floater or take a trip to the charity stripe. That could be identified as an issue with aggressiveness. However aggressiveness is the result of confidence, and confidence is the result of team play (otherwise its foolish arrogance). [2] Danny is the product of hype. I am not putting Danny down or calling him a bad player with a good name. Danny can be an all-star level player. Think of it like this, when you or I discover something good that we never heard of or knew of our initial response is to think it is great. Then we begin to handle it and look at it, and we notice a flaw here and a weakness there. All the sudden it is not "great" though we continue to hold it to such a standard.

Danny Granger is not Kevin Durrant. I am not disappointed, because I think he plays hard and leads well. I wish he were not apart of a system that encourages him to settle for perimeter shots, but I believe the improvement of Roy and Josh, the rejuvenation of Mike and A.J. , and the acquisition of Darren will create confidence and cause aggressiveness.

Wait for the regular season.

kester99
10-12-2010, 10:22 PM
My disappointment with Danny has been strictly on-court.

He's young, he's lived almost entirely in the US, so I don't expect everything he says to be wise and cosmopolitan. He is a smart guy, though, and I'm sure he is still learning. But, that is all off-court stuff, and bottom line...I don't care.

On the court, I've been disappointed in his tendency to prefer the 3pt shot to driving the hoop. I do think some of that tendency was related to lack of power in his legs last year, as he dealt with the medical issues he had then. A look at his 08-09 stats vs his 09-10 stats shows a decided drop off in FG percentage, FTAs and blocks...all attributable to not having his legs back to form, I think.

I just hope that with renewed health, he returns to a more '06-'09 style, and doesn't turn into a habitual high-volume chucker.

As far as a leadership role, I don't know that I ever expected much from him there, except for setting an example. I really don't know who the vocal leader in that locker room might be.

pacer4ever
10-12-2010, 10:26 PM
My disappointment with Danny has been strictly on-court.

He's young, he's lived almost entirely in the US, so I don't expect everything he says to be wise and cosmopolitan. He is a smart guy, though, and I'm sure he is still learning. But, that is all off-court stuff, and bottom line...I don't care.

On the court, I've been disappointed in his tendency to prefer the 3pt shot to driving the hoop. I do think some of that tendency was related to lack of power in his legs last year, as he dealt with the medical issues he had then. A look at his 08-09 stats vs his 09-10 stats shows a decided drop off in FG percentage, FTAs and blocks...all attributable to not having his legs back to form, I think.

I just hope that with renewed health, he returns to a more '06-'09 style, and doesn't turn into a habitual high-volume chucker.

As far as a leadership role, I don't know that I ever expected much from him there, except for setting an example. I really don't know who the vocal leader in that locker room might be.

the guy is like a genius he scored perfect on the ACT

Kaufman
10-12-2010, 10:28 PM
ryheathco and kesty - awesome posts. different way of looking at it and I agree with both of you guys. Danny has the abilities.

Should we have seen more of it this preseason though? Where is the fire from what happened this past summer?

Kesty you say "I don't know that I ever expected much from him there" - I think I did. And I think this is disappointing to me.

kester99
10-12-2010, 10:32 PM
Kesty you say "I don't know that I ever expected much from him there" - I think I did. And I think this is disappointing to me.

He's just always struck me as pretty laid back, except on the court. So I don't know if he has the personality that would guide / focus a locker room.

cdash
10-12-2010, 10:37 PM
Last season was a little disappointing. He needs to stop jacking so many threes up early in the shot clock, drive to the hoop more, and learn what an assist is. Honestly, I think that is all correctable. I'm more concerned about his injuries affecting his game than his actual game.

Kaufman
10-12-2010, 10:38 PM
He's just always struck me as pretty laid back, except on the court. So I don't know if he has the personality that would guide / focus a locker room.

agreed.

let me take it to another level though - he's a competitor and scorer. how can you be soooo laissez faire after this summer? humble pie is one thing, but where is the fire?

BringJackBack
10-12-2010, 10:44 PM
Just like we were/all disappointed, I think Danny is just as, if not more, disappointed in our teams these past years. He's had alot of injuries that have messed him up last season. However, three weeks or so after he recovered from his injury he played quite phenomenal and I hope that is the player he will be all this year.

I'd rather take "Antoine Walker" that will stay here no matter how tough things have been rather than Carmello Anthony or Lebron James who have had everything given to them every single year and they still have no loyalty and they don't care.

kester99
10-12-2010, 10:47 PM
Where is the fire? We have to wait and see, I think. Preseason may not tell us much.

graphic-er
10-12-2010, 10:54 PM
So you expected Danny Granger to play like he did in his All-Star season even though he had a torn foot that made it pretty much impossible to play with the same intensity. Never mind that when he came back from injury he played with that exact intensity to finish out the season.

Granger isn't a jump out of the Gym athlete going full on the entire game, he has whats called old man moves. Infact there are many blogs/articles about this just google it. So you belly ache over the fact that he didn't show up and dominate team USA at the same position Durant plays who was anointed the day he showed up. After all he was the NBA's leading scorer. Granger was most likely the insurance policy for Durant.

Then you're upset that Granger didn't go out and score 30 on Memphis to throw it in Rudy Gay's face in the first practice game of the season. News flash veterans don't use preseason to make a statement. Its practice, its exhibition, its figuring out line ups and rotations. Most veterans are just trying to get through preseason with out getting injured, and they certainly aren't going to come out and give the opposing scouts a fresh look at their game this year when the games dont' count.

Its amazing how many have completely 180'd on Granger without really looking at the context of events and situations. Injured for most of the season, Team USA wasn't built to utilize his type of game, and its practice....

ChristianDudley
10-12-2010, 11:09 PM
I know it is not all based on this current preseason, but I will say that Danny has some of the worst preseasons of any players ever...his worst ever (I believe) came during what was eventually his All-Star season. For some reason he doesn't do any good in the preseason, but when games start to count, his productivity, attitude on the court, his activity on the court, etc completely changes--plus his shots start falling once the regular season begins. I'm never too worried about Danny anymore as I know when it counts in the regular season, he'll go back to normal form of being the star player we know him to be. It is odd, but it is what it is.

kester99
10-12-2010, 11:13 PM
So you expected Danny Granger to play like he did in his All-Star season even though he had a torn foot that made it pretty much impossible to play with the same intensity. Never mind that when he came back from injury he played with that exact intensity to finish out the season.

Granger isn't a jump out of the Gym athlete going full on the entire game, he has whats called old man moves. Infact there are many blogs/articles about this just google it. So you belly ache over the fact that he didn't show up and dominate team USA at the same position Durant plays who was anointed the day he showed up. After all he was the NBA's leading scorer. Granger was most likely the insurance policy for Durant.

Then you're upset that Granger didn't go out and score 30 on Memphis to throw it in Rudy Gay's face in the first practice game of the season. News flash veterans don't use preseason to make a statement. Its practice, its exhibition, its figuring out line ups and rotations. Most veterans are just trying to get through preseason with out getting injured, and they certainly aren't going to come out and give the opposing scouts a fresh look at their game this year when the games dont' count.

Its amazing how many have completely 180'd on Granger without really looking at the context of events and situations. Injured for most of the season, Team USA wasn't built to utilize his type of game, and its practice....

Really, this misrepresents what has been said, and seems quite rude. News flash.

graphic-er
10-12-2010, 11:14 PM
Alot of you talk about the 3pt chucking last season and wanting him to drive more, I get that but remember the foot really effected his ability to put it on the floor and even shoot, heck he was blocked alot more last year as well. He was trying to be as effective as he could be given the limit his foot placed on his game. I remember that his Plantar Fascia finally tore completely when drove it into the paint and planted to switch directions and dropped the ball and immediately fell over.

I'm really quite impressed that he was able to still average 24pts a game with such a limitation.

You all should really place your frustration with JOB who refused to sit him out for the first month of the season to let his foot heal up.

MillerTime
10-12-2010, 11:15 PM
Danny never plays well during the preseason. He is actually one player that I am not worried about. We all know what we're going to get from him: SCORING.

It would be nice that he steps his defence up a little. I know his defence isnt all that bad, but it could get better.

I wouldnt worry too much about Granger. Hes a consistent 25 ppg scorer

graphic-er
10-12-2010, 11:17 PM
Really, this misrepresents what has been said, and seems quite rude. News flash.

No it doesn't, and sometimes you gotta be rude.

kester99
10-12-2010, 11:27 PM
No it doesn't, and sometimes you gotta be rude.

No one was bellyaching or upset (your words). They were talking about areas where they'd hoped or expected to see more from Danny. And no one even came close to saying they were disappointed with his Team USA showing, though Kauffy did imply that Danny himself might be disappointed in it. And your points about his injury and the preseason had already been made by three different people, including me. We said pretty much what you said.

So, yes, you did misrepresent the tone, and the words used, in this discussion.

As for needing to be rude, you are wrong (and possibly the cause of the death of Western civilization), if you feel the need to take a civil discussion to another (lower) level.

And i'm done with the back-and-forth, because we should not go to that level.

Kaufman
10-12-2010, 11:32 PM
I also know there are some major league Danny apologists on this board (I know who you are and you know who you are), so please don't drown out my thoughts, I'd like an intelligent discussion. Please no insults. And no, I don't want this to turn into a discussion about JOB either, please.

Kesty, this is why I don't post much anymore - fear of exactly this.

Kaufman
10-12-2010, 11:35 PM
Danny never plays well during the preseason. He is actually one player that I am not worried about. We all know what we're going to get from him: SCORING.

It would be nice that he steps his defence up a little. I know his defence isnt all that bad, but it could get better.

I wouldnt worry too much about Granger. Hes a consistent 25 ppg scorer

MT - I agree with you about the scoring. He is good for that. But did you expect a bit more this preseason given the somewhat disappointing off season from Danny?

graphic-er
10-12-2010, 11:37 PM
No one was bellyaching or upset (your words). They were talking about areas where they'd hoped or expected to see more from Danny. Really, it came across as bellyaching in my book. Especially in the context of playing on a hurt foot for most of the season before the foot finally tore.

And no one even came close to saying they were disappointed with his Team USA showing, though Kauffy did imply that Danny himself might be disappointed in it. And your point about his injury was already made by three different people.

So, yes, you did misrepresent the tone, and the words used, in this discussion.

As for needing to be rude, you are wrong (and possibly the cause of the death of Western civilization), if you feel the need to take a civil discussion to another (lower) level.

The rest of this is all a matter of opinion.

And i'm done with the back-and-forth, because we should not go to that level.

THanks!

Kemo
10-12-2010, 11:38 PM
So you expected Danny Granger to play like he did in his All-Star season even though he had a torn foot that made it pretty much impossible to play with the same intensity. Never mind that when he came back from injury he played with that exact intensity to finish out the season.

Granger isn't a jump out of the Gym athlete going full on the entire game, he has whats called old man moves. Infact there are many blogs/articles about this just google it. So you belly ache over the fact that he didn't show up and dominate team USA at the same position Durant plays who was anointed the day he showed up. After all he was the NBA's leading scorer. Granger was most likely the insurance policy for Durant.

Then you're upset that Granger didn't go out and score 30 on Memphis to throw it in Rudy Gay's face in the first practice game of the season. News flash veterans don't use preseason to make a statement. Its practice, its exhibition, its figuring out line ups and rotations. Most veterans are just trying to get through preseason with out getting injured, and they certainly aren't going to come out and give the opposing scouts a fresh look at their game this year when the games dont' count.

Its amazing how many have completely 180'd on Granger without really looking at the context of events and situations. Injured for most of the season, Team USA wasn't built to utilize his type of game, and its practice....

+1

BringJackBack
10-12-2010, 11:42 PM
MT - I agree with you about the scoring. He is good for that. But did you expect a bit more this preseason given the somewhat disappointing off season from Danny?

Agreed. I think whats more important for Danny rather than scoring is rebounding, shotblocking, intensity, and energy (which he doesn't play with). Especially rebounding considering that the team will have to have a collective emphasis on rebounding; both offensive and defensive.

When he does play defense, he needs to stop doing the silly "touchy" fouls and go hard and just get in their grill, touching the tip of their nose, defense. Just get up on the guys and trust your backcourt to take care of the rest; kind of like what Artest does nowadays.

Saying that, he hasn't done any of that in the preseason, not that I would neccesarily expect him to.

Trader Joe
10-12-2010, 11:43 PM
Much like Jim O'Brien the proof about what Danny Granger really is as a basketball player will be revealed this year. I have faith in him, and I genuinely like him as a person, but will he be a chucker or will he, now that he is healthy, be the guy he was 2 seasons ago who had one of the most complete offensive games in the NBA.

graphic-er
10-12-2010, 11:46 PM
Agreed. I think whats more important for Danny rather than scoring is rebounding, shotblocking, intensity, and energy (which he doesn't play with). Especially rebounding considering that the team will have to have a collective emphasis on rebounding; both offensive and defensive.

When he does play defense, he needs to stop doing the silly "touchy" fouls and go hard and just get in their grill, touching the tip of their nose, defense. Just get up on the guys and trust your backcourt to take care of the rest; kind of like what Artest does nowadays.

Saying that, he hasn't done any of that in the preseason, not that I would neccesarily expect him to.

I agree whole hearted that he needs to rebound more and he needs to stop picking up the ticky tack fouls. He gets 1-2 of those every game.

Kaufman
10-12-2010, 11:49 PM
Much like Jim O'Brien the proof about what Danny Granger really is as a basketball player will be revealed this year. I have faith in him, and I genuinely like him as a person, but will he be a chucker or will he, now that he is healthy, be the guy he was 2 seasons ago who had one of the most complete offensive games in the NBA.


TJ - for the love of god you aren't allowed to say or type the name JOB in this thread. i'm the JOB police :D and we aren't going there.

so you love Danny, do which do you think he's gonna be? Chuck Granger or complete gamer Granger?

Trader Joe
10-12-2010, 11:51 PM
I HOPE he will be complete game Granger. My honest opinion, is that he'll be somewhere in the middle.

Kaufman
10-12-2010, 11:57 PM
Another question - is this guy trade bait or is he off completely off limits?

I agree he'll be in the middle.

One point I've been wanting to make as well - I think if Danny is to get it right and be more complete - I'd love to see his father get involved. Remember a few years ago when we used to read about the influence his dad had in his life and the shaping of his basketball game? I'm not sure who he respects within the organization, certainly Larry commands everyone's respect, but one thing I would assume is that he still respects his dad.

But seems like since he's gotten married (he did get married a few years back, right?) stories about his dad have dissapated. I wonder if he's still as involved in Danny's life.

kester99
10-12-2010, 11:59 PM
I HOPE he will be complete game Granger. My honest opinion, is that he'll be somewhere in the middle.

That 3-pointer, to a shooter, may be a career-long temptation...it's so easy, and it's so fun when it goes in, and sometimes you hit a bunch in a row, and that's better than ice cream.

BringJackBack
10-13-2010, 12:02 AM
Off-limits to me means barring something crazy happening, like a proposal for Kevin Durant, he's not going to be tradeable.

If OKC ever wants to talk about that, let me know Presti.

Yeah but if we got two unprotected firsts one from Minnesota and one from Toronto with Demar Derozan, Michael Beasley (don't understand why everyone hates him, hes 21 and has light years to get it together. Same guys that defend Lance. Ironic.), and a second round pick I'd do that easily.

And no I wouldn't trade Danny for Kevin Love. That doesn't even make sense.

graphic-er
10-13-2010, 12:03 AM
Another question - is this guy trade bait or is he off completely off limits?

I agree he'll be in the middle.

One point I've been wanting to make as well - I think if Danny is to get it right and be more complete - I'd love to see his father get involved. Remember a few years ago when we used to read about the influence his dad had in his life and the shaping of his basketball game? I'm not sure who he respects within the organization, certainly Larry commands everyone's respect, but one thing I would assume is that he still respects his dad.

But seems like since he's gotten married (he did get married a few years back, right?) stories about his dad have dissapated. I wonder if he's still as involved in Danny's life.

Granger is off limits. As Bird said the day after the draft when the New Jersey trade rumors came about. "They don't have enough players on that team to get Danny Granger". Edit: I remember the look on Bird's face when the reporter asked about the trade rumor. It was priceless, like a WTF are you really asking this question? You think i'd trade one of the best players in the NBA to the worst team in the league for their garbage and a draft pick. You dumber than a box of rocks.

Also I'd just like to point out that last year it was reported that Granger wasn't even practicing with the team for almost 2 months prior to his foot completely tearing. I think this fact really explains how the team's offense was so miserable last year.

Kaufman
10-13-2010, 11:54 AM
Off-limits to me means barring something crazy happening, like a proposal for Kevin Durant, he's not going to be tradeable.

If OKC ever wants to talk about that, let me know Presti.

Yeah but if we got two unprotected firsts one from Minnesota and one from Toronto with Demar Derozan, Michael Beasley (don't understand why everyone hates him, hes 21 and has light years to get it together. Same guys that defend Lance. Ironic.), and a second round pick I'd do that easily.

And no I wouldn't trade Danny for Kevin Love. That doesn't even make sense.

i heard that presti was pondering dunleavy for kd?
:laugh:

Mr.ThunderMakeR
10-13-2010, 12:12 PM
I think Granger's style of play has changed more due to circumstances than his own personal choice. An offensive system that encourages you to take the first open shot and always look for the open 3 is gonna turn you into a chucker. Remember when Granger was first drafted his offensive style was mostly a mid-range game (which I loved btw!). Granger also showed some great defensive potential when he was drafted, we were even comparing him to Ron Artest. Who know what happend to that but I think it has something to do with him becoming the focus of the offense.

Note: I tried my hardest to keep this post from being more O'Brien critcism.

BRushWithDeath
10-13-2010, 12:43 PM
I would trade 2010 Danny Granger for 2006 Danny Granger in a heartbeat. So I don't think calling him disappointing is off base at all.

Sookie
10-13-2010, 01:09 PM
I think people have been a bit harsher on Granger than is deserved, personally.

He was injured last season, and played through it. I'd give him a fair shot this season. He hasn't exactly had an opportunity to play in a good system with talanted players. He's got some good young guys around him. Judge him how he plays if he stays healthy.

croz24
10-13-2010, 01:14 PM
i'm not even going to touch this topic...

naptownmenace
10-13-2010, 01:16 PM
That 3-pointer, to a shooter, may be a career-long temptation...it's so easy, and it's so fun when it goes in, and sometimes you hit a bunch in a row, and that's better than ice cream.


I'm not disappointed because I know that Danny was injured for half of the season last year (missing 20 games) and he played better toward the end of the season. However, more and more NBA players are falling in love with that line on the floor. Hopefully Danny remembers that he's a much better shooter from 15-18 feet and works on developing a couple of post moves. If he does that, he'll be fine.

As far as this preseason goes, he always struggles to make shots during the preseason. The only thing that really concerns me is his and the team's defense. During the preseason I would hope that the defense would be ahead of the offense. Most teams, if you look around the league, are struggling to put up a lot of points during the preseason.

pacers74
10-13-2010, 01:28 PM
I agree, Danny will score, but I want intsenity on both ends of the court. He can be a great defender if he gives the effort, and he also needs to give the same effort on offense. He needs to work with in the offense to get his shots, not chuck it up when ever he gets it.

I think he will play great this year. I think he will be motivated by getting Collison and the improves of Hibbert, McBob, and Tyler. Also, he has the motivation from sitting on the bench this past summer.

Justin Tyme
10-13-2010, 01:52 PM
I'd prefer Granger be more of an all around player than just primarily a scorer. I'd be elated with 19-20 PPG, 7-8 rebs, 4 asts, 1-2 blocks a game, and ratchet up his "D" a few notches. I don't feel this is asking too much from Granger. As a matter of fact, Granger needs to do this in order to be a player that can make his teammates better, b/c the way Granger plays doesn't make his teammates better. I want Granger to cut back on his 7 3pt shots a game to about 4-5 with more mid-range shots and drives to the rack.

graphic-er
10-13-2010, 02:03 PM
I'd prefer Granger be more of an all around player than just primarily a scorer. I'd be elated with 19-20 PPG, 7-8 rebs, 4 asts, 1-2 blocks a game, and ratchet up his "D" a few notches. I don't feel this is asking too much from Granger. As a matter of fact, Granger needs to do this in order to be a player that can make his teammates better, b/c the way Granger plays doesn't make his teammates better. I want Granger to cut back on his 7 3pt shots a game to about 4-5 with more mid-range shots and drives to the rack.

That won't happen with JOB as coach. Oops...I said JOB.

Kaufman
10-13-2010, 02:04 PM
First off, I wanna thank everyone, or most everyone, for keeping this thread on topic so far. This has been awesome and I'm really happy with the quality of responses and posts here outside. We've been able to stay out of Jim O'Brien, for that I am appreciative. I know it was tough for some of you guys :D.

I used to really frequent this site a lot and write here quite a bit but the negativity took a beating on me. More threads like this and less threads like that would be awesome. That said, I'm going to give it a whirl this season @ PD and we'll see how it goes.

With regards to Danny:
I'm going to keep an open mind this season. I'm glad to get other viewpoints and those have opened my eyes.
In response to a few posts, I think
1) BRush's response is a great one. I would trade 2006 Danny with this Danny in a heartbeat. No question.
2) I was not accounting for Danny's injuries, thanks all for reminding me.


I STILL EXPECTED MORE FROM DANNY IN THESE THREE PRESEASON GAMES.
I know he often doesn't do well in preseason, but really - what kind of an excuse is this? Danny just got back from Turkey. He's had a bball in his hands for the majority of the summer playing organized ball. So its not a question of deconditioning. I want to see a vicious intensity from him this preseason bc I think he should feel completely slighted from this summer.

BringJackBack
10-13-2010, 03:25 PM
Danny just got back from Turkey. He's had a bball in his hands for the majority of the summer playing organized ball. So its not a question of deconditioning. I want to see a vicious intensity from him this preseason bc I think he should feel completely slighted from this summer.

He might need some rest between USA and preseason. I don't know, that sounds like an excuse but heres another thing:

Danny gets his points within the flow of the game throughout. He's the opposite of instant offense. He scored his points quietly, so him only playing 20-24 minutes probably hurts his groove so to speak.

Someone like Kevin Martin will do better than Danny Granger in preaseason. Same with Javale McGee (I HATE this guy) and Roy Hibbert. Some guys make a big deal about pointless games as well as the fact that McGee and Martin can produce with limited minutes.

MillerTime
10-13-2010, 08:53 PM
are you guys happier with Granger's performance tonight?

Kaufman
10-13-2010, 09:03 PM
well MT, the stats look pretty good, and they've always looked good. from seeing the box score, i would be lying if i didn't say yes, but:
1) really want to hear from people when they return from the game, and
2) want it to be sustained
3) 7 three point attempts so far with 9:56 in the 4th seem to be just tooooooo many

vnzla81
10-13-2010, 09:04 PM
25 points and 10 rebounds is not that bad

Anthem
10-13-2010, 09:30 PM
Well right now he's put up 30 points and 11 rebounds. He's shot 12 free throws. He's got a 4-1 assist-to-turnover ratio. For those that care about such things, his +/- right now is +33... way higher than anyone else on the team (Roy is next with +22), and good for more than a point per minute played.

I'm completely ok with him shooting lots of threes if he's getting 12 FTs a game. It's when he shoots 7 threes and NO free throws that I get antsy.

kester99
10-13-2010, 09:34 PM
Looked to me like he throttled back on the threes a little after a stretch around the 2nd period when he (and the whole team) kind of went overboard with them. Good game!

MillerTime
10-13-2010, 09:37 PM
well MT, the stats look pretty good, and they've always looked good. from seeing the box score, i would be lying if i didn't say yes, but:
1) really want to hear from people when they return from the game, and
2) want it to be sustained
3) 7 three point attempts so far with 9:56 in the 4th seem to be just tooooooo many

you cant only focus on the bad (which is very little). Granger's pros outweigh his cons. He managed to score 30 points while taking only 16 shots and he pulled down 11 rebs.

It seems that he attacked the basket quite a bit today too considering that he got to the free throw line 12 times.

Kaufman
10-13-2010, 09:41 PM
fair point MT. true story with the free throws.

my gripes with DG aren't on a single game basis but more an overall feel. i think he apparently had a great game but wanna see more. overall though yes, as i said, i wanted to see him do this in preseason, show a little fire, and though i didn't see the game, it would appear he showed what i was looking for.

i do wonder if any of it had to do with playing against KLove, another summer teammate.

MillerTime
10-13-2010, 09:48 PM
fair point MT. true story with the free throws.

my gripes with DG aren't on a single game basis but more an overall feel. i think he apparently had a great game but wanna see more. overall though yes, as i said, i wanted to see him do this in preseason, show a little fire, and though i didn't see the game, it would appear he showed what i was looking for.

i do wonder if any of it had to do with playing against KLove, another summer teammate.

Thats very true. I wonder if Granger wants to prove he should have been given more mins this summer

Kaufman
10-13-2010, 10:13 PM
it'll be worthwhile to see he and KD or iggy head to head.

MillerTime
10-13-2010, 10:18 PM
it'll be worthwhile to see he and KD or iggy head to head.

ya KD took the SF spot light for sure....

Bball
10-14-2010, 05:37 AM
Let's discuss why Danny Granger's game seems to have changed. But let's not discuss or even mention the gorilla sitting on the couch with its gray sideburns.

Again I say- Coaching matters.

While the gorilla sends mixed verbal messages the gorilla sends perfectly clear messages thru its action. Granger is the player that a p-$$ poor coach has molded and created...

Mackey_Rose
10-14-2010, 06:27 AM
I don't care if Granger scores 50 points or 5 points right now. I think that too often he gets caught up in his point total and tries to force them to come. He's a good enough player that the points will come to him if he lets them. When he forces the issue too many bad things happen, mainly he stands around the three-point line and chucks without conscience.

I do care that he rebounds. And hey, he got a lot of rebounds, and shockingly, even a few assists last night. That's a big step in the right direction.

I do care that he actually asserts himself defensively, because he really hasn't the last 2 seasons. The guy has the ability to be an elite defender, but he has just chosen not to. It would be nice if he could at least find the middle ground and play some acceptable defense. I didn't get to see the game last night, so I can't comment on what he did, and I haven't seen any comments about it, so I'm guessing it was indeed somewhere in the middle.

I do care that he attacks the basket instead of settling for every half-open outside shot he can find. It looks like he got to the line plenty last night, which is definitely good and he needs to do, but again I didn't see the game so I can't really say how he got those attempts.

Kemo
10-14-2010, 07:05 AM
A player doesn't improve his ppg by 5 pts for each of 3 years in a row to become a top 6/7 scorer in the league , and just fall off to mediocrity..

The injury bug has plagued Danny little by little , and the fact that he pretty much had to carry this team the last 3/4 years on his shoulders surely didn't help ...

I think we will see a more dynamic Granger starting this season.. then it will really be noticeable come the end of December/early January ...
This will be the first time since his rookie year , that he will have some pretty darn good (albeit young) players around him.

I think , if healthy, we will see Danny's ceiling move up a little higher this year...


As far as the original question posed ... I don't think he has been "disappointing" per say . SURE there are thing that I wish he would focus on more, such as the flashes of stellar defense he showed 2/3 years ago .. I think he will ..now that he doesn't have to shoulder the scoring load... Kinda funny I mention that.. because that happened to be the season that Dunleavey had his 19ppg career best season..

Coincidence?? I think not ..
Because Danny didn't have to shoulder all the scoring , and he could exert more energy on the defensive end... Not to mention last season he was playing through injury..
I think that is a major reason why he "settled" for long jumpers and 3's.. because he has no lateral quickness on that plantar fasc. injured foot .. and was probably fighting pain even being out on the court , truth's knowing...


I expect to see alot of individual growth , as well as team growth this year with this Pacers team..

Kemo
10-14-2010, 07:27 AM
As far as preseason?
Danny has ALWAYS been a slow starter offensively..
That's just his Modus Operandi ..


By usually the 4th or 5th game into the season , is when Danny usually finds his stroke and consistantly scores well ..


.

Not worried about Danny at all..


.

Nice game from everyone tonight though vs. the TWolves ..

I think he got on P.D. and read this thread .. and decided to work harder preparing for this game to not disappoint any of you .. lol hence scoring 30 .....

I think he probably , (and i wouldnt blame him) just doesn't wanna get re-injured in a meaningless preseason game .

To me THAT would be more detrimental to the team , than him taking it a little easy being precautious during the preseason and not going "balls-2-tha-wall" risking an injury ....


.



Seriously , as an Indiana Pacers fan .. Wouldn't that totally be like someone took a huge steaming dump on your birthday cake ?
A big fibery zeppelin ... all across the word Happy (see the metaphore?) in "Happy Birthday"



Having to endure another losing season doomed from the start ..
because Danny got injured playing like an elite level superstar in a preseason game .


.
.



Tell me I'm wrong....
.
.





But that's just my opinion...

.

.




Edited to add...

As far as what Kauf mentioned about feeling a little disappointed in him since , really after he made the All Star Team..

I can respect that , ..... but I am more disappointed with the situations he and the team have been dealt more-so than I am Danny as a player ..

I think really with Danny it was a multitude of things going on that really affected his game...
One thing: playing injured
2ndly: injuries riddling a good portion of our players over the last few years.. once again putting the weight of the franchise on his shoulders with little help while he himself fighting injuries ..

jeffg-body
10-14-2010, 07:31 AM
Disappointed? no. Mildly concerned? A little bit until last night's game. Danny always starts slow and may especially needed the rest to recover from his summer experience.

Trader Joe
10-14-2010, 08:50 AM
you cant only focus on the bad (which is very little). Granger's pros outweigh his cons. He managed to score 30 points while taking only 16 shots and he pulled down 11 rebs.

It seems that he attacked the basket quite a bit today too considering that he got to the free throw line 12 times.

Quite simply, it was probably the most effective and efficient game we've seen out of Granger since his injury last season.

BillS
10-14-2010, 11:57 AM
Let's discuss why Danny Granger's game seems to have changed. But let's not discuss or even mention the gorilla sitting on the couch with its gray sideburns.

Again I say- Coaching matters.

While the gorilla sends mixed verbal messages the gorilla sends perfectly clear messages thru its action. Granger is the player that a p-$$ poor coach has molded and created...

OK, I'll rise to the bait.

Exactly what in Danny's actions were caused by JOB brainwashing him somehow?

I know, you're going to say that his love for the 3 last year was all due to Jim, and that him staying in love with it in Team USA was all due to Jim and that him not sticking to the 3 point shot only last night was due to him ignoring Jim.

Bball
10-14-2010, 12:37 PM
OK, I'll rise to the bait.

Exactly what in Danny's actions were caused by JOB brainwashing him somehow?

I know, you're going to say that his love for the 3 last year was all due to Jim, and that him staying in love with it in Team USA was all due to Jim and that him not sticking to the 3 point shot only last night was due to him ignoring Jim.

I don't really want to derail Andy's thread and make this about O'Brien. My point is that it's hard to talk about the player Granger has become without talking about the game that the coach is wanting from him as well as what is possible from the player when the coach emphasizes certain things.

I'm sure injury has affected certain games. But I'm just as sure that heading into the 4th year of O'Brien's system that it is plenty of time for Granger to have a certain pace ingrained in his head as far as how he will attack the game to play the way that he believes O'Brien wants. I'm sure plenty of bad habits are ingrained as well. Especially shot selection since everyone knows O'Brien is 3 happy and wants quick offense. And especially after 3 years of a coach who isn't exactly going to have his picture in the encyclopedia when the topic of fundamental basketball is talked about. If Granger would've spent these last 3 years with a coach that emphasizes a slower pace, smarter shot selection, and defense I think we'd see a different player game in and game out as well as when playing away from the coach. Of course that player might get less natl recognition due to a lower ppg total. Or maybe that player becomes a more efficient scorer and still keeps his ppg up with more ability to pace himself for defense too.

Call it brainwashing if you want but you're going to play the way that practice has reinforced you to play. O'Brien has demanded Granger become a 3 point scorer and play at a fast pace. He's probably hoped he could still get some defense out of him but O'Brien has shown over and over again that he will sacrifice defense for offense every time.

So five years ago Granger's basketball upbringing might've had us believing he'd become a certain kind of player. But was that really the type of player O'Brien would want him to be? O'Brien's actions through the years all but etch it into stone what he demands Danny be... and what he will accept Danny sacrifice in his game to be that player.

That's why O'Brien is the gorilla in the room when it comes to discussing a topic as wide ranging as why Granger (a major part of the team) is the player he is today.

Coaching matters....

naptownmenace
10-14-2010, 02:31 PM
So five years ago Granger's basketball upbringing might've had us believing he'd become a certain kind of player. But was that really the type of player O'Brien would want him to be? O'Brien's actions through the years all but etch it into stone what he demands Danny be... and what he will accept Danny sacrifice in his game to be that player.

That's why O'Brien is the gorilla in the room when it comes to discussing a topic as wide ranging as why Granger (a major part of the team) is the player he is today.

Coaching matters....

I see what you're saying and can't really disagree. Still, Danny has been selected for an All-Star team, won the MIP award, and was selected to this summer's Team USA squad. I'm certain that O'Brien giving him the green-light offensively had a lot to do with those accolades too.

Out of all the players that might have struggled or suffered in development playing for this coach, I think that Danny is at the very bottom of the list (slightly below) Troy Murphy.

Kaufman
03-09-2011, 10:55 PM
:bump:

where are all of you danny granger supporters?

granger33
03-09-2011, 10:59 PM
Terrible game by granger but his my favourite player in the league n I'm sticking by that. Pacer fan through thick n thin!!

Kaufman
03-09-2011, 11:03 PM
there's nothing wrong with him being your favorite player in the league. 3 years ago he was one of mine as well. In 1995 my favorite player was a nearly cripple three time traded Chuck Person. And I'm still a pacer fan 15 years later.

granger33
03-09-2011, 11:06 PM
there's nothing wrong with him being your favorite player in the league. 3 years ago he was one of mine as well. In 1995 my favorite player was a nearly cripple three time traded Chuck Person. And I'm still a pacer fan 15 years later.

Yeh I wasn't questioning if your a fan or not. We all are and get very disappointed with games like this. For an Aussie like me who spent 7,000 dollars to travel to Indy n c them play Utah like they did wasn't the best feeling in the world. But hey, all I am looking for is the future. Love watching hansbrough.

BringJackBack
03-09-2011, 11:07 PM
Just like we were/all disappointed, I think Danny is just as, if not more, disappointed in our teams these past years. He's had alot of injuries that have messed him up last season. However, three weeks or so after he recovered from his injury he played quite phenomenal and I hope that is the player he will be all this year.

I'd rather take "Antoine Walker" that will stay here no matter how tough things have been rather than Carmello Anthony or Lebron James who have had everything given to them every single year and they still have no loyalty and they don't care.

I still feel this way. I'm amazed that Danny hasn't demanded a trade. If I were in his shoes I would have handled myself significantly worse over the past couple of years.

EDIT: It's funny how good Kevin Love has become.

Kaufman
03-09-2011, 11:15 PM
I still feel this way. I'm amazed that Danny hasn't demanded a trade. If I were in his shoes I would have handled myself significantly worse over the past couple of years.

EDIT: It's funny how good Kevin Love has become.

why would he demand a trade? no where else does he have a nice supporting cast, and no where else could he play unchecked by anyone else. i guarantee you Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Derrick Rose, Dirk Nowitzki, Tim Duncan, none of those folks would tolerate his crappola. Those would be the teams he would want to go to. And he wouldn't want to play for them bc he would lose his spotlight. Which is why he wouldn't play for the Knicks, Thunder, or Heat at this point.

I now get why he went to New Mexico.

BlueNGold
03-09-2011, 11:26 PM
I'm afraid that Danny either never had the skill or was influenced too much by Jim O'Brien's offensive style. Fact is, Danny doesn't have (or doesn't use) a number of important tools in his toolbox to be a great player.

He can shoot better than Iggy, but seriously, does he do anything else better? Clearly, Coach K had his preference. There's a reason he rode pine on the USA team...and it's because his game is limited.

Fact is, his limitations are being exposed because his strength is getting up and down the court ala Golden State ball...and launching. He can really do well in that system...which of course is JOb Ball. But when he needs to operate in the half court he's nowhere near as effective. Can't pass or handle the ball that well. Doesn't defend at a high level...which is more important when you're not in the playground.

One thing I will say about Vogel arriving. He may have helped guys like Lance, Hans and yes Hibbert...but his arrival probably hurt Danny and DC. All those dudes want to do is run and shoot. ...and Vogel's system requires playing with force in the half court...something Danny does not know how to do because of nearly 4 years of JOb teaching him...

MarvelousMarvin
03-09-2011, 11:33 PM
why would he demand a trade? no where else does he have a nice supporting cast, and no where else could he play unchecked by anyone else. i guarantee you Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Derrick Rose, Dirk Nowitzki, Tim Duncan, none of those folks would tolerate his crappola. Those would be the teams he would want to go to. And he wouldn't want to play for them bc he would lose his spotlight. Which is why he wouldn't play for the Knicks, Thunder, or Heat at this point.

I now get why he went to New Mexico.

The argument is that the reason that Danny doesn't play defense, just plays an all-around lazy game is that he is tired of losing and doesn't want to bring it every night. Ron Artest pushed him very hard and because of that Danny became very good so stop acting like Danny is some spoiled brat who can only succeed on a crap team without many ego's.

smj887
03-09-2011, 11:34 PM
BlueNGold, you hit the nail on the head.


I now get why he went to New Mexico.

I may have part of this wrong, but I believe he started at a different school and was going for a degree in engineering, then when his NBA hopes actually became serious he switched to Gen Ed so he could develop his game more and transferred to New Mexico. In that case, I think going to New Mexico was more about transferring to a school that would work a 2nd year player into it's program. I can't imagine a top-tier program being too excited about giving a guy minutes who's going to be there for an abbreviated period of time.


Is it just me, or has he never fully came back from the plantar fasciitis? I remember his game when he came back being pretty average. Then at the beginning of the season he looked okay, although if I recall his shot wasn't falling like it used to, and now he just seems like a ghost out there. Maybe I'm just trying to pin it on something, but he looked like a legitimate star prior to that injury and ever since then (and especially now) he has looked average.

Edit: And count me as one of the Danny supporters. Outside of Jarrett Jack busting his tail every night, the only positive memory I really have of the 08-09 season was Danny being a lights out scorer and playing like a true All-Star. For that, I think I'll always hold him in pretty high regard even if he has taken a step or two back.

Kaufman
03-09-2011, 11:36 PM
:confusing:

if danny needed ronnie to push him then i would say lazy and spoiled would be fair adjectives to use

danny is getting paid to win and to bring it, not to slough off bc he's tired of losing.

Kaufman
03-09-2011, 11:41 PM
BlueNGold, you hit the nail on the head.

In that case, I think going to New Mexico was more about transferring to a school that would work a 2nd year player into it's program. I can't imagine a top-tier program being too excited about giving a guy minutes who's going to be there for an abbreviated period of time.

Edit: And count me as one of the Danny supporters. Outside of Jarrett Jack busting his tail every night, the only positive memory I really have of the 08-09 season was Danny being a lights out scorer and playing like a true All-Star. For that, I think I'll always hold him in pretty high regard even if he has taken a step or two back.

Memphis - Derrick Rose 1 year. Kentucky - John Wall, D. Cousins 1 year. Syracuse - Melo 1 year.

I do appreciate your reasonable and rational defense of Danny though. cheers to that.

mattie
03-09-2011, 11:44 PM
Danny was playing the best ball he has played in 2 seasons... prior to 5 games ago. I mean everyone is acting as if he has started playing bad as soon as Vogel took over. This is not true. He was easily playing the best ball of the season in 17 games: 23ppg, 50% fg, 42% 3pt...

I don't know why he is playing so bad right now, but it's not because he belongs in JOB's system.

smj887
03-09-2011, 11:46 PM
Memphis - Derrick Rose 1 year. Kentucky - John Wall, D. Cousins 1 year. Syracuse - Melo 1 year.

I do appreciate your reasonable and rational defense of Danny though. cheers to that.

I know there are a lot of one and done's, but I wasn't really referring to them. Clearly if Danny was of the same caliber as any of those guys, Memphis would have walked all over the NCAA rulebook to try to recruit him away. I don't follow the college game that much, but Danny did play 4 years at New Mexico right? If that's the case, I feel you've got to hold him to the same standards as another guy playing 4 years. I don't think those other programs would have wanted to take on a transfer player who's of "4 year" talent (vs. being "1 year" talent) when they could just as easily recruit someone who they'll get the full 4 years out of. I guess what I'm trying to say is, Danny was year old goods at this point who had depreciated and probably wasn't being looked at much, if at all, by big programs.

He might also just be a slouch, but I'm a glass half-full kind of guy. :dance:

graphic-er
03-10-2011, 12:23 AM
I'm afraid that Danny either never had the skill or was influenced too much by Jim O'Brien's offensive style. Fact is, Danny doesn't have (or doesn't use) a number of important tools in his toolbox to be a great player.

He can shoot better than Iggy, but seriously, does he do anything else better? Clearly, Coach K had his preference. There's a reason he rode pine on the USA team...and it's because his game is limited.

Fact is, his limitations are being exposed because his strength is getting up and down the court ala Golden State ball...and launching. He can really do well in that system...which of course is JOb Ball. But when he needs to operate in the half court he's nowhere near as effective. Can't pass or handle the ball that well. Doesn't defend at a high level...which is more important when you're not in the playground.

One thing I will say about Vogel arriving. He may have helped guys like Lance, Hans and yes Hibbert...but his arrival probably hurt Danny and DC. All those dudes want to do is run and shoot. ...and Vogel's system requires playing with force in the half court...something Danny does not know how to do because of nearly 4 years of JOb teaching him...

Have you actually watched Pacers basket ball over the last month? He is getting to the foul line more, his shooting percentage is up. He isn't chucking 3pters like before. If you take a sampling of games over the last month you'd surprise yourself at how well he has been playing.

pacer4ever
03-10-2011, 12:29 AM
Kaufman and SMJ he went to Bradley then transfered to New Mexico because he never played AAU like 99% of great HS players do. He had no exposure untill his senior year in HS. So he was late to the recuiting party and didnt have many offers. He chose Bradley so that he could play with his cousin once his cousin got injured he transfered to NM.

Im not saying he was anywhere close to Rose coming out because he wasnt but he was very under the radar.

imawhat
03-10-2011, 12:30 AM
After signing that contract, Danny dove onto the floor and lost his front teeth to get a loose ball.

Fast forward two years...can anyone believe that he's become a lazy, one-dimensional shell of his former self? Something happened, and I think it was off the court.

gummy
03-10-2011, 12:33 AM
The answer to the thread title is - Sadly, yes.

It's the crappy defense and demeanor that get me more than the on again off again jump shot. If he hadn't teased me with very good defense to start the season I might not be quite as disappointed.

graphic-er
03-10-2011, 12:38 AM
After signing that contract, Danny dove onto the floor and lost his front teeth to get a loose ball.

Fast forward two years...can anyone believe that he's become a lazy, one-dimensional shell of his former self? Something happened, and I think it was off the court.

I know its hard to catch the games living on the other side of the country. I don't see how you can say he has been one-Dimensional.

Again outside of a handful of games. Granger has been beasting for the last month every since the couching change.

Dr. Hibbert
03-10-2011, 12:47 AM
After signing that contract, Danny dove onto the floor and lost his front teeth to get a loose ball.

Fast forward two years...can anyone believe that he's become a lazy, one-dimensional shell of his former self? Something happened, and I think it was off the court.

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.

Wish I could thank you more for this post, man. Ever since the "personal issues" arose, DG's effort has largely dropped off. Now it's hovering around zero, especially on the defensive end. I can only criticize what I see on the court, won't criticize the individual, but I wish more Pacers fans could read your post.

Also, don't mean to speculate on those personal reasons. Just saying whatever they are, they've affected his game in the worst kinda way. More concerned for how it's affecting his life than his game though. He's a human before a bball player after all.

Hicks
03-10-2011, 12:54 AM
I'm not going to kick Danny while he's down. This is clearly a low point, but that doesn't mean it's the end of the story, either.

pacer4ever
03-10-2011, 12:55 AM
I know its hard to catch the games living on the other side of the country. I don't see how you can say he has been one-Dimensional.

Again outside of a handful of games. Granger has been beasting for the last month every since the couching change.

How is it hard thats why they made LP

imawhat
03-10-2011, 12:56 AM
I'm not going to kick Danny while he's down. This is clearly a low point, but that doesn't mean it's the end of the story, either.

Yeah, I'm regretting saying anything now.

ilive4sports
03-10-2011, 01:04 AM
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.

Wish I could thank you more for this post, man. Ever since the "personal issues" arose, DG's effort has largely dropped off. Now it's hovering around zero, especially on the defensive end. I can only criticize what I see on the court, won't criticize the individual, but I wish more Pacers fans could read your post.

Also, don't mean to speculate on those personal reasons. Just saying whatever they are, they've affected his game in the worst kinda way. More concerned for how it's affecting his life than his game though. He's a human before a bball player after all.

I really think it is the losing. Its not an easy thing to deal with, especially when you are the leader of the team. Quite frankly no matter how good Danny plays, this team is still nothing special. Do you think its easy for a competitive guy to go out and lose like this? Don't you think that takes a toll on him? And he knows right now how much he does its not going to be enough with how young this team is now.

TheDon
03-10-2011, 03:22 AM
I really think it is the losing. Its not an easy thing to deal with, especially when you are the leader of the team. Quite frankly no matter how good Danny plays, this team is still nothing special. Do you think its easy for a competitive guy to go out and lose like this? Don't you think that takes a toll on him? And he knows right now how much he does its not going to be enough with how young this team is now.

I think what i've bolded in ilive's post there is a bigger deal than we're making it out to be. Look at Andre Iguodala just this past November/Early December he was slated as the guy that was most likely to be moved and even drummed up some discussions about getting him here at the deadline. Fast forward to a winning record just a couple months later and the guy had back to back triple doubles and is playing ridiculously good defense.

I don't think it gives him a pass on his effort but I think that has taken a toll. It just seems so crazy that now that we have a chance to be in the playoffs that he has seemingly turned it off.

Also on to the side sort of thing, ever notice when Bird talks about Granger in trade talks it's usually something along the lines of "Well Danny gets frustrated, but he's been a trooper."

gummy
03-10-2011, 03:30 AM
I understand the frustration argument to a certain extent but on the other hand we actually have a shot at making the playoffs, which is not something that can be said every year as of late. Hell, as of right now we are in the playoffs. You would think that would motivate the whole team. Why give up (or look like you've given up at least) now?

Kaufman
03-10-2011, 06:49 AM
look - i want to be a fan. i haven't given up on the guy. but its not possible in my opinion to start labeling him as a huge disappointment. and this isn't scapegoat material, i have been thinking this for the last two years.

WHOA.... what is all this "personal stuff" going on that you guys are talking about? i am not in indy so maybe you all know something i don't.

but - should personal excuses affect how he operates professionally? i don't think so myself.

Kaufman
03-10-2011, 06:50 AM
accidently backing into the playoffs is different from pulling in face forward.



I understand the frustration argument to a certain extent but on the other hand we actually have a shot at making the playoffs, which is not something that can be said every year as of late. Hell, as of right now we are in the playoffs. You would think that would motivate the whole team. Why give up (or look like you've given up at least) now?

xtacy
03-10-2011, 07:40 AM
but - should personal excuses affect how he operates professionally? i don't think so myself.

this. i'm sorry i'm trying too hard to convince myself but i can't.

DocHolliday
03-10-2011, 08:03 AM
I really think it is the losing. Its not an easy thing to deal with, especially when you are the leader of the team. Quite frankly no matter how good Danny plays, this team is still nothing special. Do you think its easy for a competitive guy to go out and lose like this? Don't you think that takes a toll on him? And he knows right now how much he does its not going to be enough with how young this team is now.

This excuse, the losing, is a load of garbage. This team isn't good, but it's not like he's suffered through season win totals of 8, 12, 17, 9, etc. The Pacers have been in the playoff hunt each year. If this guy can't handle it now, I can only imagine how big of a b---- he would be if they came up short in the playoffs. Trade him; the Pacers don't need that type of attitude.

Mackey_Rose
03-10-2011, 08:31 AM
This excuse, the losing, is a load of garbage. This team isn't good, but it's not like he's suffered through season win totals of 8, 12, 17, 9, etc. The Pacers have been in the playoff hunt each year. If this guy can't handle it now, I can only imagine how big of a b---- he would be if they came up short in the playoffs. Trade him; the Pacers don't need that type of attitude.

They'd be a lot more likely to win if he gave 100% effort.

RWB
03-10-2011, 10:12 AM
Honestly, when I think who does Danny compare too? The first name that pops up is Richard Hamilton. That's not a good thing.

Trophy
03-10-2011, 10:40 AM
It's unfortunate that he's played with no effort and hasn't played like the Danny from 2009 and even last season.

He was definitely a leader 2 years ago because he lead by example and was also the guy who can be trusted with the ball in his hands.

Having that DG now and for the future would make us a really good team.

He needs to resolve something or see someone because he just doesn't look like he cares anymore and we've given him better players than he's had the past 2 years.

It would be fun to see that Danny Granger and Paul in a wing lineup in a few years.

naptownmenace
03-10-2011, 10:41 AM
why would he demand a trade? no where else does he have a nice supporting cast, and no where else could he play unchecked by anyone else. i guarantee you Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Derrick Rose, Dirk Nowitzki, Tim Duncan, none of those folks would tolerate his crappola. Those would be the teams he would want to go to. And he wouldn't want to play for them bc he would lose his spotlight. Which is why he wouldn't play for the Knicks, Thunder, or Heat at this point.

I now get why he went to New Mexico.

Yeah Danny's played bad for 5 straight games. I still don't know how you equate that to him not being able to play beside top talent. It would be much easier for him and I could see why he would want to.

Bumping this thread while Danny is in the midst of a slump is kinda bush league, Kaufman. You're better than that.

bellisimo
03-10-2011, 10:48 AM
Potential is great and all but is such a disappointment when the player doesn't reach the unrealistic potentials one create. I still remember people comparing Danny to Pippen. When you do this you end up trashing the end result.

Hell yes, Danny had a horrid game last night and this season he has not been what he was 2 years ago. He wasn't all upto the "standards" of everyone last year either. Has he regressed? One can say that looking at the numbers, that can be the case.

However - I feel that people are trying too hard to turn players into something they are not by using the word "potential" and creating huge expectations.

Sure we need that glimmer of hope that Lance becomes the next triple double machine while PG becomes the best wing we've ever had. But all this talk just reminds me the painful days of Bender.

The players on our team can play - they have done it before and more than likely they'll ball proper again. But their heads are just not right. Feels like we got rid of Artest and got other types of head problems with the players. They just seem too damn fragile.

I'd say being IMMATURE is the downfall of this team. Come off season we need a player who can bring experience/etc even if it means we're parting ways with some young guys. I'm not going to say names of who should come and who should go - I'm not an armchair GM. But this needs to happen cause the players are just lost out there. Since we aren't going to get Zen Master Jackson to coach us, we need a leader who would be able to get everyone together. Ah days of Mark and Reggie...you're missed.

Justin Tyme
03-10-2011, 11:16 AM
I'm afraid that Danny either never had the skill or was influenced too much by Jim O'Brien's offensive style. Fact is, Danny doesn't have (or doesn't use) a number of important tools in his toolbox to be a great player.

He can shoot better than Iggy, but seriously, does he do anything else better? Clearly, Coach K had his preference. There's a reason he rode pine on the USA team...and it's because his game is limited.

Fact is, his limitations are being exposed because his strength is getting up and down the court ala Golden State ball...and launching. He can really do well in that system...which of course is JOb Ball. But when he needs to operate in the half court he's nowhere near as effective. Can't pass or handle the ball that well. Doesn't defend at a high level...which is more important when you're not in the playground.

One thing I will say about Vogel arriving. He may have helped guys like Lance, Hans and yes Hibbert...but his arrival probably hurt Danny and DC. All those dudes want to do is run and shoot. ...and Vogel's system requires playing with force in the half court...something Danny does not know how to do because of nearly 4 years of JOb teaching him...


You are preach'n to the choir here. I can't disagree with anything you said. As far as I'm concerned, Granger needs an attitude adjustment. His actions and body language says he's not into playing as he was a few years ago. And yes, I feel Granger isn't happy being a Pacer. Is it possible it could a team mate or two that he has a problem with?

I noticed this a few games back, but Granger is getting very thin/patchy on the right side of the back of his head. Has that been like this all season or something of late?

Justin Tyme
03-10-2011, 11:19 AM
BlueNGold, you hit the nail on the head.



I may have part of this wrong, but I believe he started at a different school and was going for a degree in engineering, then when his NBA hopes actually became serious he switched to Gen Ed so he could develop his game more and transferred to New Mexico. In that case, I think going to New Mexico was more about transferring to a school that would work a 2nd year player into it's program. I can't imagine a top-tier program being too excited about giving a guy minutes who's going to be there for an abbreviated period of time.


Is it just me, or has he never fully came back from the plantar fasciitis? I remember his game when he came back being pretty average. Then at the beginning of the season he looked okay, although if I recall his shot wasn't falling like it used to, and now he just seems like a ghost out there. Maybe I'm just trying to pin it on something, but he looked like a legitimate star prior to that injury and ever since then (and especially now) he has looked average.

Edit: And count me as one of the Danny supporters. Outside of Jarrett Jack busting his tail every night, the only positive memory I really have of the 08-09 season was Danny being a lights out scorer and playing like a true All-Star. For that, I think I'll always hold him in pretty high regard even if he has taken a step or two back.



IIRC, Granger has a degree in engineering.

vapacersfan
03-10-2011, 12:12 PM
How is it hard thats why they made LP

Not everyone can afford NBA LP. Also, just beause you can afford it does not mean you have the free time to watch the games.......

BillS
03-10-2011, 12:34 PM
I'm not going to kick Danny while he's down. This is clearly a low point, but that doesn't mean it's the end of the story, either.

I'd agree, but if it is an attitude issue as opposed to a slump issue, he needs to be dealt with for the good of the team as a whole. Even stars should face consequences when their game falls completely apart for multiple games.

Hicks
03-10-2011, 02:33 PM
I don't disagree with that.

I see some advocating a trade, but that won't do anything but give us $0.50 on the dollar in talent.

I'm not sure what you do with this situation other than perhaps a psychologist.

Pacer Fan
03-10-2011, 07:56 PM
I'm disapointed with Danny, however, he has to bounce back if not this year, next. He has shown all of NBA he can play. He was an All-Star and I believe he will be again.

It's hard saying what is going on with him, but most NBA stars have a down year and definitely a bad portion of the year. He is not a top 5 SF in the league and he doesn't get paid like one. He is a top 10 SF in the league and he gets paid like one. He will bounce back and if he gets a better supporting cast he will excel mentally and in his game. If he has other real threats in the offense he will get more chances without being double teamed or pressured so hard and he won't feel like all the weight is on him when he shoots (he'll be more relaxed). If he has other real threats in the offense the Pacers will win more and become a vital threat and he will get excited. This will give us hope and give him hope, more so.

I think back to the Cavaliers and the games Lebron had in the last playoff series. He is a major talent right? But even he cracked in that series. What pressure and disappointment he must have had for himself and his team had to be outrages. I feel Danny may be wearing Lebrons shoes in a way. Yea,,, you say well he's not Lebron and he isn't in the playoffs...right? Well he is our Lebron and he has a worse team then Lebron did and Danny is hearing and feeling the hipe of Pacers playing every game like it's the playoffs and he (just like Lebron) knows that his team just can't do it.

Don't forget during that winning stretch they was playing bad teams...he knew this, yet he was having to get on tv and tell you all this BS about going to the playoffs, when he knew it wasn't gonna happen. Yet he had to tell himself "we have to make this happen". Then, the good teams came and they kept loosing. Yes, what he knew couldn't happen is happening. How would you feel telling and feeding the false hipe to thousands of fans and can't make it happen. Not because of your skills, but your teams skills that you can't control. Would you be Embarrassed? And how does this all play on a humans mind? We know don't we. Do you think Tyler or Paul is feeling what Danny is feeling? I very much doubt it, not nearly to the degree Danny is.

I can't speak for Danny obviously, but common sense tells me he's depressed, I know I would be. Hell, I am for him!!