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90'sNBARocked
10-11-2010, 11:45 AM
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=17571
By: Joel Brigham



Yes, the Indiana Pacers are going to be a better team this year, but there's a whole lot more behind that than just the offseason acquisition of point guard Darren Collison. Actually, there's about seven feet and two inches more behind it, and those 86 inches are named Roy Hibbert.

A third-year center out of Georgetown, Hibbert could very well be among the players up for Most Improved Player this season, especially as he prepares to take on full-time starting center duties for the first time in his career. Considering how well he played in only 25mpg in 2009-2010, one can only assume that with 35+mpg, he'll be even better.

"He showed tremendous dedication to our franchise and to his own game, and as a result his playing time is going to increase from 25 minutes to 35," said Pacers head coach Jim O'Brien. "We'll run a lot of our offense through him because he's such a good passer, face up shooter, and effective against many opponents in the low post."

With the absence of big man Troy Murphy, who rebounded well but spread the floor on offense with his shooting range, O'Brien is looking to run a more traditional half-court set where Hibbert is the focal point. Collison and Danny Granger and everyone else on the roster all will depend on what Hibbert does in the post for a successful offense.

To fine tune his moves, Hibbert worked with Bill Walton, one of the league's all-time most unstoppable post scorers.

"We worked on some stuff," Hibbert said about his time with Walton. "How to be a big man, have a good presence on and off the court. He showed me some good things. He's a winner and a champion, so I was trying to be a sponge and absorb up all I can."

It won't just be his offense that makes Hibbert so valuable this season, however. He was originally drafted for his defense, and that's where Indiana is looking for the biggest improvement this season.

"Defense is always key for us," Hibbert admitted. "Offense will take care of itself, but defensively we have lapses. We'll be good for three or four plays in a row then we have five, six or seven possessions when we break down and the more experienced teams take advantage of us.

Hibbert, in his very limited minutes last season, still averaged 1.6 blocks and 5.7 rebounds per night. With increased minutes, he could easily be a double-double guy swatting away over two blocks a game. That's what Indiana needs him to be, and that's why they're making such a big deal about his role for this franchise moving forward.

"I just want to improve every year," he said. "I want to get my rebounding numbers up, be a leader on the court more than anything."

If those goals are attained, there's a chance that Indy could actually sneak back into the bottom of the Eastern Conference playoff picture. That, at least, is what Hibbert and the rest of his teammates are setting as a realistic goal for themselves this season.

"We're shooting for those last couple spots, and I think we can do it," Hibbert said. "We have to win. Our backs are against the wall, and we have to scrap."

All that scrapping will definitely make the Pacers a better team in 2011, but it'll be the improvement of Hibbert—as well as the rejuvenation of Granger and the addition of Collison—that will get Indy into the playoffs next spring.

Funny how the largest of reasons for resurgence in Indianapolis is the one most easily overlooked. You'd think 86 inches would be a little more obvious.

graphic-er
10-11-2010, 11:57 AM
How can you work with Walton and not learn this one fundamental rule....throw it down big man!

90'sNBARocked
10-11-2010, 12:05 PM
How can you work with Walton and not learn this one fundamental rule....throw it down big man!

LOL

I miss Bill's comentary

I remeber one game after a nice pass by Joe Prysbilla Walton said:

"What a tremedous pass by , quite possibly, the greatest passing big man in the history of the NBA"

I think all the years follwing the greatful dead have caught up with Bill's judgement, lol

McKeyFan
10-11-2010, 12:25 PM
How can you work with Walton and not learn this one fundamental rule....throw it down big man!

Roy should be fined for every obvious dunk he gives the pansy treatment.

90'sNBARocked
10-11-2010, 12:33 PM
Roy should be fined for every obvious dunk he gives the pansy treatment.

I agree but the thing I like about Roy is he "man'd up" after the game and admitted he played soft, and seems determined to play stronger

Sookie
10-11-2010, 12:37 PM
Roy's gotta adjust to his new body. I'd give him a bit of time.

pacers74
10-11-2010, 01:13 PM
Roy will be a top 4 center in the east. Is that Elite? Maybe, I'm looking at 17 ppg, 7.5 rpg, and 1.5 bpg.
I would love all of his hard to pay off and for him to make the all-star game. Can he beat out B.Lopez, and Bogut for the second center spot?

spreedom
10-11-2010, 01:17 PM
I am strongly considering adding the Kings to my League Pass Broadband Pick 7 package because Bill Walton is doing color for them this year. I get a huge kick out of his commentary and feel bad for those that don't appreciate his unique brand of humor as much as I do.

diamonddave00
10-11-2010, 01:17 PM
Not knocking Roy Hibbert but I don't ever see him averaging 10 rpg. Roy is more of a Rik Smits clone , big center with shooting range but mediocre at best as a rebounder and defender.

If Roy can bump his stats up to 15 ppg and 8 rpg, I'll be satisfied he's improving. He seems a great kid but I don't see the huge ceiling some on here do. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong.

90'sNBARocked
10-11-2010, 01:23 PM
I am strongly considering adding the Kings to my League Pass Broadband Pick 7 package because Bill Walton is doing color for them this year. I get a huge kick out of his commentary and feel bad for those that don't appreciate his unique brand of humor as much as I do.

When you say "pick 7" are you saying the League Pass, now allows you to pay/pick only a couple teams?

If so thats great, I always hated paying 180 dollars only to watch the Pacers

90'sNBARocked
10-11-2010, 01:24 PM
Not knocking Roy Hibbert but I don't ever see him averaging 10 rpg. Roy is more of a Rik Smits clone , big center with shooting range but mediocre at best as a rebounder and defender.

If Roy can bump his stats up to 15 ppg and 8 rpg, I'll be satisfied he's improving. He seems a great kid but I don't see the huge ceiling some on here do. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong.

I agree with that. Big Roy is not a great rebounder and if he can average 8 a game I will be happy with that

pacer4ever
10-11-2010, 01:38 PM
When you say "pick 7" are you saying the League Pass, now allows you to pay/pick only a couple teams?

If so thats great, I always hated paying 180 dollars only to watch the Pacers

ya you can pick 7 or pick all the teams pick seven is only $109. I buy them all normal pick a new team to watch each night. If the pacers are not on and normally watch the kings or clippers or OKC at 10:30

Diamond Dave
10-11-2010, 01:56 PM
Roy lacks the explosiveness to be an elite center. He can not gain this in the off season either. It is something you are born with. He can and will be a serviceable starting level center for several years, but I dont see him making the all star team unless there are extensive injuries in the league simultaneously.

Roy is very similar to Rik, but honestly I now think Rik was more physical. I didn't think Rik was physical when he played at all, but as I watch old games now I see that he was. It is very hard to see it that way as he played in the most physical days of the NBA. With Dale and Tony on the same team, and constantly lining up against Oakley, Ewing, Mason, Willis, Thorpe, Long, Robinson, Shaq, etc. You're just going to look soft. Today Rik would not be considered soft at all IMO.

Roy has to get stronger. He still gets bent over in the post by anybody's forearm. Falls to the floor constantly. Can't back anyone down. He has lots of skills, but seems to lack the physical attributes to implement them consistently, or at least at an elite level.

McKeyFan
10-11-2010, 02:14 PM
Not knocking Roy Hibbert but I don't ever see him averaging 10 rpg. Roy is more of a Rik Smits clone , big center with shooting range but mediocre at best as a rebounder and defender.

If Roy can bump his stats up to 15 ppg and 8 rpg, I'll be satisfied he's improving. He seems a great kid but I don't see the huge ceiling some on here do. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong.
Okay "Diamond Dave" thanked the post of "DiamondDave00."

Who's who? Is there some kind of connection? I think the one without double zeros is Peck's son, but I'm not sure.

duke dynamite
10-11-2010, 02:14 PM
I don't like it when he says Troy Murphy is "absent" from the team. That just gives me the impression that he is coming back...sometime.

Trader Joe
10-11-2010, 02:19 PM
I don't like it when he says Troy Murphy is "absent" from the team. That just gives me the impression that he is coming back...sometime.

He is a free agent next summer....:eek:

spazzxb
10-11-2010, 02:44 PM
He is a free agent next summer....:eek:
if he is cheap he should be welcomed back. While i hated his contract and role with the team. He wasn't as bad as people mad him seem. He was just what was left once jax, tins, jermaine , and the rest were gone. I am sure TJ and Mike would like him back just to spread the hate around a bit.

Pacers4Life
10-11-2010, 03:00 PM
How can you work with Walton and not learn this one fundamental rule....throw it down big man!


haha that was awesome.
and i couldn't agree more... he's gotta dunk that shi...

Pacers4Life
10-11-2010, 03:21 PM
I am strongly considering adding the Kings to my League Pass Broadband Pick 7 package because Bill Walton is doing color for them this year. I get a huge kick out of his commentary and feel bad for those that don't appreciate his unique brand of humor as much as I do.

i seriously love it. even with his... favortism towards certain teams (ahem...) the things this guy says are classic. Clark Kellog-esque

CableKC
10-11-2010, 03:30 PM
Last season, Hibbert attempted a season average of 9.7 FGA per game...where his average crept up to 10.7 FGA per game in the last couple of months of the season. Murphy had a season average of 11.3 FGA per season....where his average got closer to 12 FGA in the last couple of months in the season.

Although Hibbert was technically considered a "3rd option" on the Team with the 3rd most FGA per game....until I see Hibbert attempting more FGA per game....hopefully creeping up to 12-13 FGA a game.....I'm going to follow the "When I see the offense run more through Hibbert, I'll believe it" mantra.

This is not a "bash JO'B" response from me....this is more of a "I have seen very little evidence over the last 2 seasons when JO'B had a highly efficient low-post scorer at his disposal that has led me to believe that he will look to more to score from inside then the outside" response from me.

In other words, when it comes to JO'B using Hibbert more on the offensive end and actually going to a under-utilized but effective skill that he has...."when I see it, I'll believe it".

graphic-er
10-11-2010, 03:37 PM
Last season, Hibbert attempted a season average of 9.7 FGA per game...where his average crept up to 10.7 FGA per game in the last couple of months of the season. Murphy had a season average of 11.3 FGA per season....where his average got closer to 12 FGA in the last couple of months in the season.

Although Hibbert was technically considered a "3rd option" on the Team with the 3rd most FGA per game....until I see Hibbert attempting more FGA per game....hopefully creeping up to 12-13 FGA a game.....I'm going to follow the "When I see the offense run more through Hibbert, I'll believe it" mantra.

This is not a "bash JO'B" response from me....this is more of a "I have seen very little evidence over the last 2 seasons when JO'B had a highly efficient low-post scorer at his disposal that has led me to believe that he will look to more to score from inside then the outside" response from me.

In other words, when it comes to JO'B using Hibbert more on the offensive end and actually going to a under-utilized but effective skill that he has...."when I see it, I'll believe it".

I don't even think its a matter of more shot attempts. If he would just dunk the ball more you'd see his points go up by 4-8 points a game. He has atleast 3-4 chances in a game where is gets the ball right under basket and goes for a weak layup.

CableKC
10-11-2010, 03:55 PM
I don't even think its a matter of more shot attempts. If he would just dunk the ball more you'd see his points go up by 4-8 points a game. He has atleast 3-4 chances in a game where is gets the ball right under basket and goes for a weak layup.
In terms of how he takes his shots is important...but that's irrelevant if he isn't getting the ball in his hands in the first place.

I'm not saying that I want him to be taking as many FGA as Granger....I'm saying that we have not been using an effective scoring option over the last 2 seasons as much as we probably should have been whereas we have been relying more on going to our "jump shooters" when it comes to scoring.

90'sNBARocked
10-11-2010, 04:18 PM
In terms of how he takes his shots is important...but that's irrelevant if he isn't getting the ball in his hands in the first place.

I'm not saying that I want him to be taking as many FGA as Granger....I'm saying that we have not been using an effective scoring option over the last 2 seasons as much as we probably should have been whereas we have been relying more on going to our "jump shooters" when it comes to scoring.

Exactly how many times have we seen the two man game with Roy and DC, where DC feeds the ball into Roy who makes his post move

I dont recall seeing it that much, in fact it looks as though they want Roy at the top of the key and eitehr pass of shot the 18 footer

Thats OK but I would rather see big Roy work down low

MLB007
10-11-2010, 04:22 PM
Roy lacks the explosiveness to be an elite center. He can not gain this in the off season either. It is something you are born with. .

You better inform a lot of athletes and athletic trainers out there then.
Cuz LOTS of them have increased theirs and others explosiveness to tremendous degrees.
I increased my vertical jump by 5" in one summer after training with a certified trainer for a couple of months. (many moons ago)
(could dunk a volleyball for a year after that, not bad for a 5'9" 220lb white kid)
Mostly by using a leg machine that you squatted in and put your shoulders in a horsecollar type deal and then exploded up as fast and as hard as you can.
Increasing leg strength can add substantial explosion to any athlete.

flox
10-11-2010, 04:47 PM
Last season, Hibbert attempted a season average of 9.7 FGA per game...where his average crept up to 10.7 FGA per game in the last couple of months of the season. Murphy had a season average of 11.3 FGA per season....where his average got closer to 12 FGA in the last couple of months in the season.


Wow I can't believe we are giving Roy that many shots. I'm worried.

CableKC
10-11-2010, 05:04 PM
Wow I can't believe we are giving Roy that many shots. I'm worried.
Just to be clear....are you saying that you don't want to see more FGA by Hibbert?

or

Are you saying that you were surprised that he had so many?

Just so that you know where I'm coming from....I want Hibbert to be more of a 2nd/3rd scoring option on the Team...whereas it appears that he's been used more as a 3rd/4th scoring option on the Team. I basically want him to get more touches on a regular and consistent basis. I'm not saying that I want him to touch and score the ball as often as JONeal did when he was here...I'm just saying that he's an efficient and solid scorer...why we don't go to him more often ( even if it translates into 2 to 3 more FGA per game ) is puzzling.

flox
10-11-2010, 05:12 PM
I don't want him to see a usage of level of Duncan, Howard, or Garnett. That's all. I don't think he's as good as they are.

BillS
10-11-2010, 05:41 PM
I don't want him to see a usage of level of Duncan, Howard, or Garnett. That's all. I don't think he's as good as they are.

:eek:

He's shooting 50% in the preseason. Who would you rather have taking shots?

To say "I don't want (x) doing (y) because he's not as good at it as (best players in the league)" pretty much means everyone on our team should just sit on the sidelines and watch the other team play Horse with Larry Bird.

IndyPacer
10-11-2010, 06:13 PM
Not knocking Roy Hibbert but I don't ever see him averaging 10 rpg. Roy is more of a Rik Smits clone , big center with shooting range but mediocre at best as a rebounder and defender.

If Roy can bump his stats up to 15 ppg and 8 rpg, I'll be satisfied he's improving. He seems a great kid but I don't see the huge ceiling some on here do. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong.

Those numbers sound about right for the next year or two (I was thinking 17 and 7), but he could still continue to get better. Just adding teammates that compliment him (Collison, Tyler, and McRoberts all seem to fit in well with him for example) could help his game. A new coach wouldn't hurt, either, but we'll see if Obie keeps his word. It's so bizarre that O'Brien seems to just now realize what he has with Hibbert. Many of us have been dumbfounded for quite some time by his stubborn ways.

IndyPacer
10-11-2010, 06:19 PM
Roy lacks the explosiveness to be an elite center. He can not gain this in the off season either. It is something you are born with. He can and will be a serviceable starting level center for several years, but I dont see him making the all star team unless there are extensive injuries in the league simultaneously.


Ah, but did Rik have the advantage of working with the brilliant basketball mind of this man?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KkrccHEAqg

Diamond Dave
10-11-2010, 06:58 PM
Ah, but did Rik have the advantage of working with the brilliant basketball mind of this man?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KkrccHEAqg
:lol2:

Checkmate! You win! Oh lord that was funny and horribly awkward for whoever was is broadcast partner.

Roy may never explode off the block past his defender and slam it home, but he will educate him on subtle differences between the compositions of J.S. Bach and Fredrick Chopin.

Diamond Dave
10-11-2010, 07:01 PM
Okay "Diamond Dave" thanked the post of "DiamondDave00."

Who's who? Is there some kind of connection? I think the one without double zeros is Peck's son, but I'm not sure.

No connection between us, but yes you are correct in that Peck is my father.
:tmyk:

90'sNBARocked
10-11-2010, 07:45 PM
No connection between us, but yes you are correct in that Peck is my father.
:tmyk:

If Peck is your father and you're 24 , was your pops like 16 when you were born?

Not trying to be funny at all but that would make Peck like 50 or so, thought he was younger

BlueNGold
10-11-2010, 07:59 PM
I don't want him to see a usage of level of Duncan, Howard, or Garnett. That's all. I don't think he's as good as they are.

Roy is certainly not that good, but he's closing the gap offensively. I doubt he ever reaches that level defensively, but at least he's improved a bit.

BTW, those are three of the best big men in the last 10-15 years. It's actually pretty funny we are comparing him to those guys considering Roy was a #17 pick. In any event, the JO trade just looks better all the time...and I would not trade Hibbert for Oden at this stage.

IndyHoya
10-11-2010, 09:16 PM
Hibbert has a lot of pluses that haven't been mentioned in this thread. His work ethic is second to none. You should have seen him his first year at Georgetown. I thought he was hopeless. But his progress has been amazing. In his second year I remember telling a friend: "Well, he's already better than I ever imagined he could be." His third year had him going toe to toe with Oden. This year he shed 20 pounds and now has like zero body fat. That's work, effort, and desire to be good. And he just keeps getting better.

He's also possibly the best passing big man in the NBA. He's got very soft hands and is extremely clever with his deliveries. It pains me a great deal to watch him deliver someone a great pass only to see them fumble it away. Good things happen when Roy has the ball. He invariably has a couple of assists to pad his stats that often do not get mentioned.

My biggest critique of Roy is that he needs to add some meanness to his developmental package. He's sometimes too passive. Yes, he does need to just throw it down more often. He does need more leg lift and needs to get even stronger. He needs a little more of the downright nastiness that characterized some of the other NBA Georgetown centers -- Ewing, Mourning, and Motumbo for example. I can't imagine Dwight Howard ever throwing Patrick Ewing or Alonzo Mourning to the floor. It might happen once, but then Dwight would be going down pretty soon thereafter. That kind of nastiness might come someday for Roy too. He's young, still learning, and still continuing to surprise me.

flox
10-11-2010, 11:27 PM
:eek:

He's shooting 50% in the preseason. Who would you rather have taking shots?

To say "I don't want (x) doing (y) because he's not as good at it as (best players in the league)" pretty much means everyone on our team should just sit on the sidelines and watch the other team play Horse with Larry Bird.

50% in the preseason is pretty good, but other bigs have shooting percentage that are higher and get less attempts. I'm just not going to be comfortable for us to have a conscious effort to give Roy more attempts than is necessary, and I'm sure that 8-11 is more than enough for him. To hear people talk about giving him at least 12 attempts is not something that I would like to see.



Roy is certainly not that good, but he's closing the gap offensively. I doubt he ever reaches that level defensively, but at least he's improved a bit.

BTW, those are three of the best big men in the last 10-15 years. It's actually pretty funny we are comparing him to those guys considering Roy was a #17 pick. In any event, the JO trade just looks better all the time...and I would not trade Hibbert for Oden at this stage.

I'm not comparing him to those guys. Just saying that people are upset about 10FGA per game when Duncan, Howard, and Garnett don't really get more than that.

I'd trade Hibbert for Oden in a heartbeat.

xBulletproof
10-11-2010, 11:30 PM
I'd trade Hibbert for Oden in a heartbeat.

Sweet, I always wondered what it would be like to have Bob Sanders on the Pacers. Pretty close.

BlueNGold
10-11-2010, 11:38 PM
I'd trade Hibbert for Oden in a heartbeat.

I just knew yesterday was a fluke.

Oden has the offensive skills of Ben Wallace and the knees of Jon Bender or Jermaine O'Neal.

Way too much risk to give up on Hibbert who will have a long and very successful NBA career.

flox
10-12-2010, 12:35 AM
Sweet, I always wondered what it would be like to have Bob Sanders on the Pacers. Pretty close.

At least then we'd have someone with championship experience and a winner on the team. And someone more accomplished than Granger.

I'd rather have 2-3 seasons of prime Jermaine in a championship window rather than have Hibbert over his career. And Oden is light years ahead of Wallace in terms of offense.

Mackey_Rose
10-12-2010, 12:43 AM
I'd trade Hibbert for Oden in a heartbeat.

And I thought many of your blind defense of JOB posts were way off base...

Woah. And I love Oden.

flox
10-12-2010, 01:11 AM
And I thought many of your blind defense of JOB posts were way off base...

Woah. And I love Oden.

Really? Do I really have to explain why I like Oden (11.1ppg, 8.5 rpg, 0.9 ast, 2.3 blks in 23:53 mpg) over Hibbert? ( 11.7 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 2.0 asts, 1.6 blks)

Oden is much better defensively, can score points without having offense run for him, and can protect the rim better. Assuming he comes back fully healthy from his injury, he should have a better year than Hibbert. Hibbert may be better than him offensively and passing wise, but Oden's still the better player, and if healthy-a centerpiece- whereas Hibbert isn't.

I'd actually love to see other people's take on this. I'd assume most people wouldn't want to do it on especially because this is a Pacers board.

xBulletproof
10-12-2010, 01:15 AM
Oden's still the better player, and if healthy-a centerpiece- whereas Hibbert isn't.

All-DL First Team ..... 3 years running!

Who wouldn't want to build around that kind of a guy? Gotta love quoting stats for a guy who played 20 games.

Sookie
10-12-2010, 01:19 AM
Yea, but he's always injured..

I'd take Roy. And I think he can be a centerpiece.

flox
10-12-2010, 02:02 AM
All-DL First Team ..... 3 years running!

Who wouldn't want to build around that kind of a guy? Gotta love quoting stats for a guy who played 20 games.

He showed more potential and talent in 20 games than Roy has in 3 seasons.

Yes, he's injured. Does that mean he isn't a good player? Is Ginobili not a good player? Wallace? Boozer?

IndyPacer
10-12-2010, 02:07 AM
I don't want him to see a usage of level of Duncan, Howard, or Garnett. That's all. I don't think he's as good as they are.

No one on this team is as good as any of those guys. Duncan is probably the best power forward in NBA history. Howard is the best center in the league. Adjust your expectations a bit. Some members of The Dream Team might have some difficulty getting playing time by those standards.

Kemo
10-12-2010, 02:08 AM
He showed more potential and talent in 20 games than Roy has in 3 seasons.





I'm sorry but I gotta call you out on this one..

You are delusional ..

flox
10-12-2010, 02:29 AM
No one on this team is as good as any of those guys. Duncan is probably the best power forward in NBA history. Howard is the best center in the league. Adjust your expectations a bit. Some members of The Dream Team might have some difficulty getting playing time by those standards.

I'm just saying- you guys want him to shoot more than 10-12 shots per game. Duncan, Garnett, Howard didn't shoot more than 10-12 shots per game. And yet you want Hibbert to get more touches?


I'm sorry but I gotta call you out on this one..

You are delusional ..

Maybe, but I remember watching him against the Spurs, and he was just so amazing that game, and he was holding his own vs the Spurs bigs. And then there was that game versus the Nets where Lopez was on fire, but Oden was playing strong in that game too. He was really balling before his injury- he was playing really well. I remember watching both games and I was so impressed with how he was playing and what he could become.

And then that awful Houston game..that image is still in my head. Ew.

cgg
10-12-2010, 02:42 AM
Career FGA per game
Duncan: 15.99
Garnett: 15.85
Howard: 10.67

Wow Dwight scores a lot of points without a lot of fga.

Richard_Skull
10-12-2010, 03:12 AM
Career FGA per game
Duncan: 15.99
Garnett: 15.85
Howard: 10.67

Wow Dwight scores a lot of points without a lot of fga.

Yea, but that's because he shoots a crap load of free throws.
Imagine what he could do with a 75+ FT%.

And for the record, I would keep Hibbert over Oden.

Taterhead
10-12-2010, 03:18 AM
I think people are severely underestimating Hibbert. Roy is elite at several things that make him very unique for a guy his size. He has great hands and he is also a great passer. He has great range on his jump shot. And he has a tremendous work ethic and enthusiasm for the game. I think he can be one of the top 5 Centers in the league easily. I think Roy has actually turned into a solid defensive center. We are certainly a better defensive team with him out there. I think people will be surprised at his agility this year and what benefits his new found conditioning will show on the court. Roy is no where near the sloth he is made out to be. He is 7'2" and a little akward at times, but he goes hard and ran the floor pretty well in the Orlando game I thought. And as he grows over the next few years he will improve that with better footwork and feel.

I also agree with the poster who mentioned Hibbert as a freshman at Georgetown. It is truly amazing what he has accomplished and I expect him to continue that kind of growth for the next 5-6 years. The sky is the limit for Roy. And the reason I think that is his work ethic. I think he is the hardest working big man in the NBA.

flox
10-12-2010, 03:32 AM
Career FGA per game
Duncan: 15.99
Garnett: 15.85
Howard: 10.67

Wow Dwight scores a lot of points without a lot of fga.

Sorry, I meant last season. I could have sworn I mentioned that.

Yeah, Howard is ridiculous.

So we have top tier centers...Howard, Bogut, Lopez, Horford, Yao when healthy..and then the 2nd tier of like Noah, Biens, Gasol, Nene, Kaman, Hibbert, and Oden when healthy.

If we take the next 4 years... you can see maybe Yao and Bogut fall out, but Noah and Gasol and Oden should provide good competition, as well as Cousins, and a very dark horse in Thabeet who is very raw but has all the tools. Then there is also Ibaka, Aldrich, etc....

xBulletproof
10-12-2010, 04:13 PM
He showed more potential and talent in 20 games than Roy has in 3 seasons.

Yes, he's injured. Does that mean he isn't a good player? Is Ginobili not a good player? Wallace? Boozer?

As for the first line, we'll agree to disagree.

As for the 2nd line, there's a difference between being hurt, and ALWAYS being hurt. We're talking about a guy that I'm starting to believe could break a finger opening a Coke can at anytime. In 3 years in the NBA, he's played 82 games. One season's worth of games, in three years. Not to mention his one year in college he was injured and missed 7 games before playing with a cast on his hand for a while. When he's not injured, he's fouling out. He averages 4 fouls per game in 23 minutes. We complain about Roy's foul problem and he plays more minutes, and averages less fouls.

Even if Roy never gets better than last year I would take his production over a full season, than Oden for 27 games a year. However if we could sign Oden for cheap in free agency I'd be willing to do that. However I'm not going to trade much for a guy who doesn't play.

MLB007
10-12-2010, 04:30 PM
In terms of how he takes his shots is important...but that's irrelevant if he isn't getting the ball in his hands in the first place.

I'm not saying that I want him to be taking as many FGA as Granger....I'm saying that we have not been using an effective scoring option over the last 2 seasons as much as we probably should have been whereas we have been relying more on going to our "jump shooters" when it comes to scoring.

3 or 4 times a game Murphy would shoot the trailer 3 pt shot.
That doesn't count as relying on jump shooters.
If that wasn't open and we set up the offense, then Murphys shots go way down.
We can and should run as much as it is open, but when it's not and we settle into the 1/2 court offense it will flow through Roy much more than it used to.
And because he is such a good passer, it isn't just scoring and HIS fg attempts that will matter.

MLB007
10-12-2010, 04:35 PM
50% in the preseason is pretty good, but other bigs have shooting percentage that are higher and get less attempts. I'm just not going to be comfortable for us to have a conscious effort to give Roy more attempts than is necessary, and I'm sure that 8-11 is more than enough for him. To hear people talk about giving him at least 12 attempts is not something that I would like to see.




I'm not comparing him to those guys. Just saying that people are upset about 10FGA per game when Duncan, Howard, and Garnett don't really get more than that.

I'd trade Hibbert for Oden in a heartbeat.

Ok, you are officially out of the running for GM. :laugh:

MLB007
10-12-2010, 04:36 PM
Sweet, I always wondered what it would be like to have Bob Sanders on the Pacers. Pretty close.

How about one Jonathon Bender?

MLB007
10-12-2010, 04:38 PM
At least then we'd have someone with championship experience and a winner on the team. And someone more accomplished than Granger.

I'd rather have 2-3 seasons of prime Jermaine in a championship window rather than have Hibbert over his career. And Oden is light years ahead of Wallace in terms of offense.

We're not in a championship window and Roy hasn't reached his prime, so comparing them is pointless.
No way I trade Roy for the more talented but fragile as glass Oden.

pacers74
10-12-2010, 04:46 PM
The only centers I would take for Hibbert are D.Howard and B.Lopez, and B.Lopez would be a tough decision.

MLB007
10-12-2010, 05:04 PM
Really? Do I really have to explain why I like Oden (11.1ppg, 8.5 rpg, 0.9 ast, 2.3 blks in 23:53 mpg) over Hibbert? ( 11.7 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 2.0 asts, 1.6 blks)

Um, yeh, that'd be helpful as it looks pretty dang close to me. And Roy gets paid a whole lot LESS :p

Oden is much better defensively, can score points without having offense run for him, and can protect the rim better. Assuming he comes back fully healthy from his injury, he should have a better year than Hibbert. Hibbert may be better than him offensively and passing wise, but Oden's still the better player, and if healthy-a centerpiece- whereas Hibbert isn't.

Do you know what they say about "assume"ing things? :D
FACT is, he's been hurt every year for the past 4 or 5 years going back to college.
To ASSUME that he's going to be fully healthy seems like a bit of a stretch after his history.

Personally, I think his athleticism might just be his own enemy. He's so athletic and runs and moves so well (or at least used to) that he really puts a lot of stress on his 7' structure that other less athletic centers don't.
As for being a centerpiece, prepare to change that opinion. ;)

And that ain't "if healthy" like Oden's is. :happydanc :dance:



I'd actually love to see other people's take on this. I'd assume most people wouldn't want to do it on especially because this is a Pacers board.

Why? Most people here like Oden, and if he was healthy this wouldn't be a discussion.
But his POTENTIAL versus Hibberts right here and now, that's another question.
And the fact that Oden makes a lot more money.
And I'll take the (more) sure thing.

Gamble1
10-12-2010, 05:44 PM
Not knocking Roy Hibbert but I don't ever see him averaging 10 rpg. Roy is more of a Rik Smits clone , big center with shooting range but mediocre at best as a rebounder and defender.

If Roy can bump his stats up to 15 ppg and 8 rpg, I'll be satisfied he's improving. He seems a great kid but I don't see the huge ceiling some on here do. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong.
So you want Hibbert to get 1.5 more ppg and 2.5 more rebounds per game.

GEESSHHhh conditioning alone and subtractoin of Murphy should get you that.

flox
10-13-2010, 10:50 AM
As for the first line, we'll agree to disagree.

As for the 2nd line, there's a difference between being hurt, and ALWAYS being hurt. We're talking about a guy that I'm starting to believe could break a finger opening a Coke can at anytime. In 3 years in the NBA, he's played 82 games. One season's worth of games, in three years. Not to mention his one year in college he was injured and missed 7 games before playing with a cast on his hand for a while. When he's not injured, he's fouling out. He averages 4 fouls per game in 23 minutes. We complain about Roy's foul problem and he plays more minutes, and averages less fouls.

Even if Roy never gets better than last year I would take his production over a full season, than Oden for 27 games a year. However if we could sign Oden for cheap in free agency I'd be willing to do that. However I'm not going to trade much for a guy who doesn't play.

You could say the same thing about Amare a couple years back. Amare turned out fine.

xtacy
10-13-2010, 10:55 AM
He seems a great kid but I don't see the huge ceiling some on here do. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong.

this.

flox
10-13-2010, 10:59 AM
Yeah I agree I don't see this huge ceiling that other people are talking about

Lance George
10-13-2010, 11:55 AM
What's the latest on Ol' Jello Knees? The last I heard he was out indefinitely... yikes. I'm sure Greg Oden at 85%+ of his physical peak would be a monster defensive force. I'm equally sure Greg Oden at 85%+ of his physical peak will forever remain a fantasy for basketball fans. Give me the new Rik Smits over the new Sam Bowie.

Gamble1
10-13-2010, 11:57 AM
Yeah I agree I don't see this huge ceiling that other people are talking about
Well in context of this article that "huge" ceiling is a double double guy. I wouldn't consider that a huge ceiling.

Now in context of this homer forum thats another thing.

For all the skeptism I wounder what you and Dave think is a huge ceiling. IS it 18 and 10 or something?

Lance George
10-13-2010, 12:05 PM
Hibberts "huge upside" is based on the fact that he's a skilled 7'2" center who's shown he has the work ethic and the understanding needed to improve. He's already proven he can be a very productive player in 25 minutes a night. If he can keep up that same productivity over 35 minutes a night, he's already a 17/8/2.5/2.5 guy. If he can play those types of minutes while actually increasing his productivity level, that's where Pacers fans' hopes of Roy joining the 20/10 club come in. It's very optimistic and I can't see it happening without Roy being the #1 scoring option, which would probably mean moving Danny. Still, Roy reaching the level of a LaMarcus Aldridge seems very likely to me, and perhaps even higher since Roy can be the interior force and shot blocker that Aldridge is not.

flox
10-13-2010, 12:09 PM
Well in context of this article that "huge" ceiling is a double double guy. I wouldn't consider that a huge ceiling.

Now in context of this homer forum thats another thing.

For all the skeptism I wounder what you and Dave think is a huge ceiling. IS it 18 and 10 or something?

At least 20/10

Hicks
10-13-2010, 01:26 PM
In his more efficient 20ppg years (03 and 06), JO averaged 20 points in about 16 FGA per game. So he was scoring at about 1.25 points per shot.

With 6 FGA, Roy averaged 7 points his rookie year, and with about (rounded up to) 10 FGA, he averaged about 12 points. That's about 1.17 points per shot, and 1.2 points per shot.

So far not as efficient as JO, but last year he wasn't terribly far off, either.

In other words, if you were happy with how many shots JO needed to get 20 points in '03 and '06, you should be happy with Roy getting a similar number of FGA.

So far this preseason, he's close to 1.23 pps, btw.

The difference must be free throws because Roy has a clearly superior FG%. JO's FG% in '03 and '06 were 48% and 47%. Roy's first two years were 54% and 51%. So far he's 50% for the preseason.

Gamble1
10-13-2010, 02:12 PM
At least 20/10
So using the NBA filters only David lee did that last year.

OF course the stats aren't averaged on a per minute basis but maybe that also factors in conditioning if you don't do that.

Saying that Hibbert is on par with Howard is a joke to me but saying he has to score 20 ppg and net 10 rebounds a game to be considered a high ceiling player is also sort of silly IMO.

count55
10-13-2010, 02:30 PM
In his more efficient 20ppg years (03 and 06), JO averaged 20 points in about 16 FGA per game. So he was scoring at about 1.25 points per shot.

With 6 FGA, Roy averaged 7 points his rookie year, and with about (rounded up to) 10 FGA, he averaged about 12 points. That's about 1.17 points per shot, and 1.2 points per shot.

So far not as efficient as JO, but last year he wasn't terribly far off, either.

In other words, if you were happy with how many shots JO needed to get 20 points in '03 and '06, you should be happy with Roy getting a similar number of FGA.

So far this preseason, he's close to 1.23 pps, btw.

The difference must be free throws because Roy has a clearly superior FG%. JO's FG% in '03 and '06 were 48% and 47%. Roy's first two years were 54% and 51%. So far he's 50% for the preseason.

Two things here: JO is a bad benchmark for efficiency, because he was a very inefficient scorer.

Second, the 54 & 51 you're showing for Roy are TS%, not FG% (which were .471 and .495 for his first two years.

Roy is getting better, but he's still only about average in terms of scoring efficiency. The big obstacle he has at the moment is that he doesn't get to the line enough - less than 4 per 36 last year. He needs to get up to 6 or above, and that will make him the kind of scorer the Pacers can really use.

xBulletproof
10-13-2010, 03:50 PM
You could say the same thing about Amare a couple years back. Amare turned out fine.

.... what?

Amare has averaged 74 games per year for the last 4 years. The worst 3 year span in Amare's career he nearly played twice as many games as Oden has in his 3 years in the NBA. Amare's total was only that low because of him playing 3 games in one year. You exclude that single season and Amare has averaged 73 games per year over his other 7 years.

He's never had the problems Oden is having. Not even close.

Hicks
10-13-2010, 04:00 PM
Two things here: JO is a bad benchmark for efficiency, because he was a very inefficient scorer.

Agreed. I chose him because he's someone Pacer fans will be very familiar with, and once upon a time, most of us were pretty happy to have him (and his offensive game was certainly one of the reasons why).



Second, the 54 & 51 you're showing for Roy are TS%, not FG% (which were .471 and .495 for his first two years.

:huh: I was using his NBA.com profile. To my knowledge, nba.com player pages don't include TS%.

*checks*

My bad; what I did was I looked at his preseason FG% from '09 and '10 by mistake. You're correct, it was actually 47% and 50% (rounded).


Roy is getting better, but he's still only about average in terms of scoring efficiency. The big obstacle he has at the moment is that he doesn't get to the line enough - less than 4 per 36 last year. He needs to get up to 6 or above, and that will make him the kind of scorer the Pacers can really use.

Yep, that's what I was thinking as well. If he could start getting fouled more often, he'd be in business.

flox
10-13-2010, 05:28 PM
.... what?

Amare has averaged 74 games per year for the last 4 years. The worst 3 year span in Amare's career he nearly played twice as many games as Oden has in his 3 years in the NBA. Amare's total was only that low because of him playing 3 games in one year. You exclude that single season and Amare has averaged 73 games per year over his other 7 years.

He's never had the problems Oden is having. Not even close.

He, like Amar'e, had two knee surgeries in a short span and before that had a lot of injuries early in his career.

Then he healed and averaged 74 games the rest of his career. You can say the same about Oden. Oden had the wrist injury in college, which equals Amar'e's first season in the NBA. Then he had the microfracture, then came back for 61 games, missed a few games, then broke his knee, and now is coming back.

Amar'e had a good first season, played 55 due to ankle issues his second season, played a good third season, then had a double knee surgery and came back fine.

I think Oden has the same potential to come back.


So using the NBA filters only David lee did that last year.

OF course the stats aren't averaged on a per minute basis but maybe that also factors in conditioning if you don't do that.

Saying that Hibbert is on par with Howard is a joke to me but saying he has to score 20 ppg and net 10 rebounds a game to be considered a high ceiling player is also sort of silly IMO.

Well he is currently an average nba center. A high ceiling implies he has is nowhere close to max potential. So then a high ceiling would be hard to get stats, like a 20/10 season.

BlueNGold
10-13-2010, 10:10 PM
Two things here: JO is a bad benchmark for efficiency, because he was a very inefficient scorer.

Second, the 54 & 51 you're showing for Roy are TS%, not FG% (which were .471 and .495 for his first two years.

Roy is getting better, but he's still only about average in terms of scoring efficiency. The big obstacle he has at the moment is that he doesn't get to the line enough - less than 4 per 36 last year. He needs to get up to 6 or above, and that will make him the kind of scorer the Pacers can really use.

This is all true. But Roy did transform himself physically and has more mobility...which will yield more foul shots. For example, tonight he scored pretty efficiently. He truly played dominant basketball tonight...although it was against scrubs.

Also, there was nothing much wrong with JO during the good years. He was arguably Duncan/KG level for a bit. The complaints about JO came later...during the many years where he played sparingly and not nearly as good...after the shoulder injury in Denver which pretty much changed his game.