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Pacergeek
10-11-2010, 08:39 AM
After trading Troy Murphy, most of us rejoiced and celebrated Troy's departure. However, it is now clear that with Troy leaving, we have a huge weakness that has not been adressed. Rebounding. It is impossible to win without having a guy that can go up and get rebounds.

Say what you want about Troy, but he got rebounds. Although I do approve the acquisition of Collision, I am disappointed that Bird ignored that fact that we gave up our best rebounder, and got nothing back to supplement the lost rebounding.

Trophy
10-11-2010, 08:45 AM
Roy. He's been a good rebounder and now will need to take on the full responsibilty and pull down all or most of the team's rebounds.

When Jeff is in, he's able to get offensive rebounds.

Really?
10-11-2010, 09:04 AM
Rebound by committee, lol

Putnam
10-11-2010, 09:04 AM
Troy got lots of rebounds for two reasons:

1. He was good at it, and
2. The game plan called for him to take the rebounds.


The Pacers do not need another guy to take all 737 rebounds that Troy collected. They need to revise the game plan so that contesting defensive rebounds is more of a team objective.

Foster rebounded last year at a higher rate than Murphy, so more Foster minutes will mean more rebounds from him. Hibbert, Hansbrough and McRoberts were all close to the same rebounding rate as Murphy. They are capable of making up the difference with more minutes and a greater emphasis on rebounding.


Roy. He's been a good rebounder and now will be to take on the full responsibilty of being the big man on the team and pull down all or most of the team's rebounds.

EDIT: Trophy, surely you don't mean Roy is going to get "all" the Pacers rebounds. That doesn't happen. Even a phenomenon like Dwight Howard collected less than 1/3rd of his team's rebounds.

And remember this: for all the over-the-top language about "wiping the glass," a very large share of NBA rebounds are picked up off the floor by guards. Rajon Rondo, at 6'1", outrebounded his 6'10" teammate Rasheed Wallace last season.

Speed
10-11-2010, 09:04 AM
I know Obrien works on this and fundamentals in general, but blocking out.

Posey does it, religiously, Jeff does it almost all the time. Others do sporadically, some never.

At the NBA level it baffles me that this basic concept often doesn't apply. It's still basketball, even at the highest level.

I remember JO being termed as a guy who really wasn't a block out type of rebounder? Really? How is it better to not be between your guy and the basket in any scenario at any level of basketball?

Plus if your an agressive go-after-the-ball type rebounder, boxing out doesn't preclude you doing this, in fact it helps, since you already have position on one of the offensive players.

So, ya maybe you don't have a dominant board cleaner, but if five guys box out your rebounding percentage will go up.

I do feel like that JMac and Hansbrough have the tools to get up to 10 boards a game, though.

Scheme wise you could adjust, but it's at the detriment of running in transition or can be. You can send 5 guys to the basket to rebound, but then you have 96 feet for ALL 5 guys to beat their man down the court. This is what I think Obriens answer is to this and I get it, but to me it's robbing peter to pay paul.

I want all 5 guys boxing out, everytime. Let me know if you see anyone, next game, for either team boxing out, outside of 10 feet of the basket. It just doesn't happen in the NBA, sad really.

I sound like an old man yelling at youngsters to turn down their music, but I honestly believe this would be a huge step in the right direction.

I don't think it's by accident that Utah is a great rebounding team and I also don't think it's because they have a bunch of dominant rebounding players. Sloan's old school, it's what he values.

Pacerized
10-11-2010, 09:15 AM
Since Murphy's 33 minutes will end up going to several players it has to be a collective effort. McBob, Tyler, Roy, and Jeff should get most of those minutes. If Jeff can play in 72 games like Murphy did last year he can rebound at that rate for the minutes he plays. Simply put if Jeff could play all of Murphy's 2344 minutes I don't think we'd miss anything, but that can't happen. At best we might hope he can cover half of the loss since he won't play that much. The question is can the combination of Roy, Mcbob, and Tyler make up for the rest? So far in the off season they haven't. This should really test the rebound stealing theory.

Pacergeek
10-11-2010, 09:27 AM
Maybe I am just freaking out, but the pre-season rebounding numbers seem really poor, and I think that Pacer fans will miss Murphy a lot more than we thought.

vnzla81
10-11-2010, 09:32 AM
I think the question should be, who is going to steal the rebounds now?

graphic-er
10-11-2010, 09:58 AM
We were not a great rebounding team last year either, great rebounding teams are able to get a good amount off Offensive rebounds. We were terrible at that last year and will be terrible at it this year, because the JOB mantra is shoot early and shoot often, and get back on D, which means no player is in position 90% of the time to pull down an Offensive rebound.

I feel pretty comfortable that McBob and Tyler will be able to replace Murphy's defensive rebounds.

Heck I seen George steal a rebound from Foster already.

BillS
10-11-2010, 10:08 AM
So, does this perhaps mean that Murphy's rebounds weren't all easy rebounds that anyone on the team either could have gotten or would have gotten if he didn't blatently steal them?

You can't have it both ways, either Murphy's rebounds were valuable and we need to be concerned that they aren't being replaced, or they were useless and there's nothing to worry about.

MLB007
10-11-2010, 11:16 AM
1) Roy will be better, he's much quicker and more explosive.
2) Jeff is back, he'll make up at least 1/2 of them, even in limited minutes
3) Tyler and Josh will both put up better numbers with more minutes.
4) Rest has to be 'by committee"

Bottom line, I expect we'll be at least as good, but probably better by the end of the season. Going to take some time and emphasis though.

Peck
10-11-2010, 12:18 PM
Sadly I will have to admit that Troy Murphy has actually managed to shake my entire rebounding is king theory to the very core.

I now actaully look at rebounding figures and no longer care. A double double almost means nothing to me now.

My entire life of watching basketball I have viewed getting 10 rebounds a game as a monumental achievement that usually is only done by great rebounders.

That is all gone now.

BillS
10-11-2010, 12:23 PM
Sadly I will have to admit that Troy Murphy has actually managed to shake my entire rebounding is king theory to the very core.

I now actaully look at rebounding figures and no longer care. A double double almost means nothing to me now.

My entire life of watching basketball I have viewed getting 10 rebounds a game as a monumental achievement that usually is only done by great rebounders.

That is all gone now.

Why? Basketball is a game of probabilities, not absolutes.

Even IF you think Murphy's rebounds were all fake, that doesn't mean everyone else who gets double-digit rebounds is some kind of pretender.

Then again, the answer could be that not all of Murphy's rebounds were fake. I know that also would shock you to the core, but it is more likely than the alternative idea that rebounds don't matter and the only people who get lots of rebounds are pretending.

OakMoses
10-11-2010, 12:25 PM
You can't have it both ways, either Murphy's rebounds were valuable and we need to be concerned that they aren't being replaced, or they were useless and there's nothing to worry about.

I choose C: We were a bad rebounding team with Troy, now we are a bad rebounding team without Troy.

BillS
10-11-2010, 12:42 PM
I choose C: We were a bad rebounding team with Troy, now we are a bad rebounding team without Troy.

Makes no sense. If we are getting fewer rebounds on an absolute level without Troy, and if Troy's numbers were all because he stole rebounds or he got meaningless ones, then either our absolute numbers would stay the same (because the guys he stole from would get the rebounds) or the change in rebounds wouldn't matter.

Trophy
10-11-2010, 01:00 PM
EDIT: Trophy, surely you don't mean Roy is going to get "all" the Pacers rebounds. That doesn't happen. Even a phenomenon like Dwight Howard collected less than 1/3rd of his team's rebounds.

And remember this: for all the over-the-top language about "wiping the glass," a very large share of NBA rebounds are picked up off the floor by guards. Rajon Rondo, at 6'1", outrebounded his 6'10" teammate Rasheed Wallace last season.

I think now it needs to be a team effort, but Roy needs to know to box out any opposing players trying to get the rebound.

I think Darren will also be big when it comes to rebounding much like Rajon Rondo like you said.

Danny can also finish with a double-double here and there.

diamonddave00
10-11-2010, 01:03 PM
Foster can't play more than 15-18 minutes a night, even his best season he never averaged 10 rebounds a game as Murphy did last season nor the 12 rpg Troy averaged 2 years ago. Say all you want about Troy " stealing team mates reounds" , its appearing obvious he grabbed those rebounds because he wanted them , something I've not seen Pacer players do in the early pre season.

Have the players gotten so use to Murphy grabbing the rebounds they have forgotten how to go after rebounds? Hibbert is Rik Smits on the boards if he averages even 8 rpg I'll be somewhat surprised. Grangers total game has slipped since he became the focal point on offense , he needs to grab at least 7-8 a night not the 5 he seems satisfied to average.

Hopefully Tyler and Josh can combine for at least 9-10 or this team will have no chance of winning if they rebound even worse than last season.

Speed
10-11-2010, 01:09 PM
I don't think they are meaningless, but they are supposed-to-get rebounds that Troy mostly got. You still have to get them, regardless, but you are still 'supposed to' as a team, imo.

I would guess, the Pacers will still get those rebounds, as a whole. The improvement, I think, will come from the offensive side of getting rebounds, but that depends on personel. So, if Hansbrough and Foster get minutes, I think this will percentage will go up.

I still say choice C is still valid, though. The Pacers were so bad a rebounding last year that even if you get Troy's 'supposed-to-get' rebounds and elavate the offensive numbers, you could still be bottom third in the league, very easily. Hence, bad before, bad after.

If the team abandons playing a PF, period and you're playing 3 wings, a PG, and Roy. Well thats almost another matter. Then you're taking away a traditional rebounding position completely. To me, thats when it becomes more of how you're doing things now, not so much that you don't have Troy.

I look at it this way, if Roy gets two more boards a game on the defensive side of the ball, which I think he'll do. Then that leaves you 8 boards to get from the 30 mins you got out of Troy last year (assuming Obie even plays a PF). I think McRoberts can give you almost that if he plays 30 mins a night, all by himself. If not and JMac plays 20-25 mins a night, I think whoever plays that position (even if it's Posey) for those remaining 5-10 minutes can pull at least 2 boards on avg. Leaving JMac 6 boards a night to get. Either way or any variation of that it works out. So at that point your even steven, from a supposed-to-get rebound perspective.

Sounds like a bust on Murphy and it kind of is, but I truely believe 80% of his boards would have been gotten by his teammates if he didn't get them by being the designated rebounder (by scheme) and playing the Power Forward position meaning one of his primary responsibilities was to get those rebounds.

Murph was good at it, but not exceptional. I don't remember hardly any "big" rebounds at crucial times by Murph on the defensive end. I can probably take 30 games of Dale Davis' prime and find more crunch time rebounds than what they got from Murph his entire Pacer career.

BornReady
10-11-2010, 01:14 PM
I don't think rebounding will be any more of an issue now than it was last season. It's not like we suddenly have a void in that area. We arguably a more energetic and hustling 6'10 body in McBob/Hans in his place to pull them down.

Speed
10-11-2010, 01:15 PM
Have the players gotten so use to Murphy grabbing the rebounds they have forgotten how to go after rebounds?


I could actually see this being something they have to adjust to, honestly.

Hicks
10-11-2010, 01:17 PM
Josh and Roy will account for Murph's 10 boards from last year. Josh will probably average 6-7, if not more, and Roy will probably go up 3, from 5.7 to closer to 8.7.

Speed
10-11-2010, 01:18 PM
I'd also make this observation. If the Pacers aren't going to be a fast break team, which in spite of pace, they are not. Then there is no excuse to not secure the defensive boards at a high rate.

Reading Hollingers piece talking about Golden State being epically horrible at rebounding and that basically being the only team worse than the Pacers. Well, at least Golden State has an excuse. They run and gun and basically have made a decision to forgoe being a good defensive rebound team. Pacers don't rebound and don't get the benefit of easy transition buckets, thats really actually worse, imo.

OakMoses
10-11-2010, 03:39 PM
Makes no sense. If we are getting fewer rebounds on an absolute level without Troy, and if Troy's numbers were all because he stole rebounds or he got meaningless ones, then either our absolute numbers would stay the same (because the guys he stole from would get the rebounds) or the change in rebounds wouldn't matter.

Fine, if you're going to make me choose, I'm going with the absolute numbers staying the same.

flox
10-11-2010, 04:51 PM
No one. We'll suck at rebounding this year, costing us a few games.

cordobes
10-11-2010, 09:10 PM
At the NBA level it baffles me that this basic concept often doesn't apply. It's still basketball, even at the highest level.

I remember JO being termed as a guy who really wasn't a block out type of rebounder? Really? How is it better to not be between your guy and the basket in any scenario at any level of basketball?

Plus if your an agressive go-after-the-ball type rebounder, boxing out doesn't preclude you doing this, in fact it helps, since you already have position on one of the offensive players.

So, ya maybe you don't have a dominant board cleaner, but if five guys box out your rebounding percentage will go up.

(....)

I don't think it's by accident that Utah is a great rebounding team and I also don't think it's because they have a bunch of dominant rebounding players. Sloan's old school, it's what he values.

It's because the player will lose time to find his man, pivot and then block-out, limiting himself to rebound an area, the space, when he could use that time to go after the ball and fly for it. Plus, it's virtually impossible to gain position on every player and every play.

I think boxing out is way more effective at lower levels. In the NBA you can box out perfectly but some guys are so quick, leave the floor so quickly that the only way of preventing them to grab an epic amount of boards is by trying to get to the ball first and battle them above the rim. So many guys just go after the ball: Jermaine O'Neal, Marcus Camby. I think you need that kind of rebounder to dominate the boards in the NBA. Quick flyers who will rebound well out of their area.

I don't think Utah is a good rebounding team because they box out more than the others (I don't think they do that). Generally they are a good rebounding team because they're extremely good getting offensive rebounds (they often lead the league, sometimes by a fair margin). That's obviously not due to boxing out but Sloan's willingness to sacrifice transition defense. But they're often merely good in terms of defensive rebounding.

In the last few years, their defensive rebounding rate was: 6th, 20th, 9th, 4th, 11th, 8th, 10th, 24th - average 11.5th

Offensive rebounding rate in the same years: 13th, 5th, 5th, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 1st, 2nd - average 3,8th

So, above average defensive rebounding + elite offensive rebounding = excellent rebounding team

The only year they were a slightly below average rebounding team was 08/09 - a season where their strong rebounders like Boozer, Kirilenko, Harpring were injured for large parts of the season while Memo, Korver, Brewer and CJ Miles played a lot of minutes.

I think Sloan is similar to Scott Skiles, for example: they try to have good rebounders in the roster, they value that skill, and from that they build good rebounding teams.

A team that puts a lot of emphasis in boxing out is Hibbert's alma mater, Georgetown. I think that's one of the reasons their bigs generally don't have good rebounding instincts. Also Hubbie Brown, that man is a huge fan of boxing out.

Make no mistake, I think boxing out is an important skill and some guys are actually worse rebounders than what they look like because they simply don't box out (Shelden Williams irritated me deeply last season with this, he's a very overrated rebounder because so often he never blocks his man) while others may not grab many boards but are great team rebounders due to their ability to block their man (as you say, Posey is pretty good doing this).


And remember this: for all the over-the-top language about "wiping the glass," a very large share of NBA rebounds are picked up off the floor by guards. Rajon Rondo, at 6'1", outrebounded his 6'10" teammate Rasheed Wallace last season.

True, in the sense that Rondo collected more rebounds througout the season. But only because he played a lot more minutes - so more rebounding opportunities were available for him. Anyway, that's indeed an excellent example of an elite rebounder for a backcourt position making up to some extent for a poor rebounder for a frontcourt position.

Another interesting example - and one that Speed will appreciate - is the Nets team with Jason Kidd. Analysts were often criticizing Jason Collins, Mikki Moore et all because they were so horrible rebounders, but the Nets were often a pretty good rebounding team in the league because those guys would put a lot of effort on boxing out and allowing Kidd to attack the middle of the lane, catch the rebound and ignite the fast-break faster. It was part of their game plan.

Anyway, the expect rebounding for a given position is an interesting subject. My completely unscientific personal scale for Total Rebounding Rate goes more or less like this:

PG - a few freaks like Rondo/Kidd/Westbrook/Lowry getting above 7%; guys with 6ish are pretty good; 5ish are average; guys with 5 or less are mediocre.

SG - 9%-10% is elite (Delfino, Iguodala, etc.), above 7.5% is very good; 6 or less is bad.

SF - 8% or less is very poor; a 9% is average; guys like G. Wallace, LeBron Jmaes, Deng or Durant with +10, even 11ish, are elite.

Bigs - the guys in the 20%ish like Love, Howard, Oden are elite; 18-19 is excellent; 16-17 is good; 15-16 average; below 15 is mediocre; below 13 are serious liabilities.

BlueNGold
10-11-2010, 09:20 PM
Why all the concern about boards? We beat Houston on the boards folks, 37-36, without McBob.

Memphis and Orlando were 4th and 5th in the entire league last year. Did you expect the Pacers to control the boards against those teams? Memphis is notorious for rebounding well and Orlando is one of the best teams in the NBA.

Funny that the game we did best on the boards was the game we received a serious beating. They shot lights out and I would suggest that if they did not...we would have beat them even more on the boards grabbing them on defense.

Also, last year without Murphy, we beat Memphis on the boards....and WITH Murphy leading us with 8 DRB and 0 ORB we lost on the boards and lost by more points. Think about that combined with the fact our record last year was far better without Troy.

This year without Troy, we did get beat on the boards, but the game was close. Much closer than any game against the Grizzlies last year. Would you prefer more rebounds or more wins. It appears that we get more of both without Murphy.

While I like a team that can rebound the ball, you really have to wonder if those boards Murphy collected were gathered up in the context of a competitive basketball game....or if they were actually empty stats.

Putnam
10-11-2010, 09:49 PM
Anyway, the expect rebounding for a given position is an interesting subject. My completely unscientific personal scale for Total Rebounding Rate goes more or less like this:

PG - a few freaks like Rondo/Kidd/Westbrook/Lowry getting above 7%; guys with 6ish are pretty good; 5ish are average; guys with 5 or less are mediocre.

SG - 9%-10% is elite (Delfino, Iguodala, etc.), above 7.5% is very good; 6 or less is bad.

SF - 8% or less is very poor; a 9% is average; guys like G. Wallace, LeBron James, Deng or Durant with +10, even 11ish, are elite.

Bigs - the guys in the 20%ish like Love, Howard, Oden are elite; 18-19 is excellent; 16-17 is good; 15-16 average; below 15 is mediocre; below 13 are serious liabilities.


Good stuff. Is there any way to validate these numbers so we can use them as a standard for evaluating players as the season progresses?

It is easy enough to tally rebounds by player, position and even height. But you are using the percent of total rebound opportunities that a player gets, right? Is there a source of data that reports that, and keeps up to date throughout the season?

EDIT:

Never mind. I see now that Basketball Reference does provide this.



.

cordobes
10-11-2010, 09:55 PM
We were not a great rebounding team last year either, great rebounding teams are able to get a good amount off Offensive rebounds.

Not always. Teams like Orlando and San Antonio in the last few years were very good rebounding teams - top-2, top-10 - while being awfully bad in terms of offensive rebounding (bottom 5, bottom 10). There's a trade-off between transition defense+stretching the floor offensively and offensive rebounding. Some coaches like Popovich or SVG (or O'Brien) value the first part more.

-----------

Anyway, I quickly tried to add some scientific creed to my rebounding scale and calculated the average total rebounding rate per position (I wanted to do this quickly, so I merely used last season numbers; only players with a minimum of 100 rbs for backcourt players, 150 for bigs; 10mpg for all; allocated combo-guards and combo-forwards to the 1,2,3 and 4 positions according to my impression about at which position they played more minutes last season; PGs N=55, SGs N=59; SFs N=50; Bigs N=113).

These are the average rebounding rates per position. Players listed as centers by basketball-reference average a 16.2% TRR, however I find the distinction between PFs and Cs when it comes to RR unimportant (the numbers top 50%, meaning these guys rebound better than those left out of the sample).

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2349/rrperpositio01.png

The standard deviation for bigs is 3,1; for other positions around 1-1.5.

This is how positions contribute to the total team rebounding on average:

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/3361/rrperpositio02.png

(used the data from basketball-reference.com)

Naptown_Seth
10-11-2010, 10:19 PM
Say what you want about Troy, but he got rebounds.
Say what you will about him getting rebounds, but they weren't offensive or contested rebounds.

Getting rebounds that would otherwise hit the floor (or your teammate's hands) if you didn't catch the ball is not a valuable skill.

Sookie
10-11-2010, 10:52 PM
Say what you will about him getting rebounds, but they weren't offensive or contested rebounds.

Getting rebounds that would otherwise hit the floor (or your teammate's hands) if you didn't catch the ball is not a valuable skill.

Yea. I don't think our rebounding will increase or decrease this season.

But also, I've watched teams that aren't great at rebounding make up for it by
A. making sure to turn the ball over less than the opposing team.
B. causing turnovers as part of the defense.

I think the difference in turnovers makes up for the difference in rebounding. We really couldn't do that this past season. But with guys like Collison, Rush, Hans, Josh, Price, and George..I think there's enough active hands to grab some steals and to apply pressure defense. Just a thought.

Naptown_Seth
10-11-2010, 10:56 PM
Pacers as a team last year:
785 OFF, 2852 Opponents DEF
21.6% Offense glass
969 Opp OFF, 2618 DEF
27% Opp Offensive rebounding

The Pacers got regularly spanked by opponents for offensive rebounds PER CHANCE (which includes each others "uncontested" defensive boards).


Vs Houston
14 OFF for Pacers, 27 DEF for Houston
14 of 41 chances : 34%
23 DEF for Pacers, 9 OFF for Houston
9 of 32 chances : 28%

Vs Magic (McBob 14 minutes, Rolle 8)
7 OFF for Pacers, 40 DEF for Magic
7 of 47 chances : 15%
33 DEF for Pacers, 13 OFF for Magic
13 of 45 chances : 29%

Vs Memphis (Rolle 8 min, Hans 0)
13 OFF for Pacers, 36 DEF for Memphis
13 of 49 chances : 26.5%
22 DEF for Pacers, 13 OFF for Memphis
13 of 35 chances : 37%


So in 3 games they've been somewhat worse protecting the defensive glass. When you look at the 3 games I think what you see is that when McBob is in they do rebound well and have been very competitive. The issue has been Solo not being a strong backup for Roy and having very little PF depth after Josh.

I'm obviously not a Tyler believer and this is one area that worries me, his lack of height and hops to get tough boards. I'm hoping lateral quickness and hustle give him a Foster-like advantage, but let's be fair to Jeff and realize in his prime he was a great quick jumper and repeat jumper and one of the best lateral moving rebounders in the game.

BUT I still think they need a lot of Josh and Tyler because after that there just isn't much frontline DEPTH. It's not about replacing what Troy did, it's about having 2 bigs on the court for 48 minutes instead of 30 minutes. It's about not watching as Danny, DJones and Posey get destroyed for rebounds by PFs from the other team.

If Foster is nearly done and Tyler can't go or turns out not to be good enough, then they will be in rebounding trouble, but that's about depth and not the Troy skillset.

The wild card is Rolle and when you look at the first 3 games you have to wonder why Solo is getting more run than Rolle because they appear to need more of what Rolle brings to the game. I'm worried that Rolle will be added to the long list of guys we'd play right now that JOB will inexplicably sit in moments of clear need.

Naptown_Seth
10-11-2010, 11:02 PM
Yea. I don't think our rebounding will increase or decrease this season.

But also, I've watched teams that aren't great at rebounding make up for it by
A. making sure to turn the ball over less than the opposing team.
B. causing turnovers as part of the defense.

I think the difference in turnovers makes up for the difference in rebounding. We really couldn't do that this past season. But with guys like Collison, Rush, Hans, Josh, Price, and George..I think there's enough active hands to grab some steals and to apply pressure defense. Just a thought.
I'll go a step further and say that TO's are much more valuable than defensive boards because they typically occur much closer to the other end and often with potential mismatches going as soon as they happen.

Add to this the horrible outlet passing by Troy. Anthem or someone was just talking about this issue which became a regular theme: rebound, sloppy outlet for TO and 3 on 2 break at our own FT line. How's that DEF rebound help?


Can they and will they, that's the question. They have the talent types to be a Kidd Nets jailbreak style offense, but will they get that kind of coaching and defensive guidance/strategy. It's a lot more than just saying "guys, defend hard and get steals". They need help with techniques and team methods if they want to be that type of team.

I mean last year it was night and day when you saw them face the Bobcats who were the best example of the "just get TOs" type of defense IMO.

Sookie
10-11-2010, 11:04 PM
I thought Tyler rebounded pretty well in that past game. He's an aggressive guy and just "goes for it," there's no hesitation there. Which I think helps him overcome some shortcomings..

Tyler will be fine, imo. He's got an incredible work ethic, and he's proved himself at every level before this. That means something. My biggest issue is with the way he plays, I fear he'll get hit in the head again. I'm still suggesting a helmet.

edit: Nothing drives me more crazy than a turnover. :P But also, a theory for playing against Paul Ball, I think hold true in all systems.

We need to cut down the turnovers as well as creating them. But, if we do turn it over, it's much better for it to be a "throw it out of bounds" type of turnover. A turnover where the ball stops and is taken from out of bounds. Rather than one that creates a fast break opportunity. As you said, I think there needs to be strategies taught here..

Hibbert
10-12-2010, 01:38 AM
Roy Hibbert will rebound. We have yet to see him a whole season with 30+ min/gm. He is only coming into his 3rd year. Brendan Haywood in his 2nd year averaged 24 min/gm, 1 less than Roy last year, and averaged 5 reb/gm. Troy Murphy in his 6th and final yr. at GS averaged about 26 min/gm and got 6 reb/gm before coming here. Chris Kaman's 2nd yr - 26 min and 6 boards. Andrew Bynum - 22 min and 6 in 2nd. My point is give Roy some time. He worked his A off this summer and working with Walton had to help. I think this year we will all see Big Roy have a break out year.

Kstat
10-12-2010, 07:29 AM
Look on the bright side: the myth of Troy Murphy "stealing" rebounds from his own teammates will either be busted or confirmed....

For the record, their best option is going to be to dust off the corpse of Jeff Foster and handcuff him to Roy Hobbert. Think Weekend at Bernie's, with basketball.

Unclebuck
10-12-2010, 09:03 AM
I'm not that worried about rebounding. In fact as an overall stat, rebounding is not a stat I get to concerned about. (disclaimer - sure I would rather win the rebounding battle than lose it) I do think in order to be a good team getting tough defensive rebounds late in close games is hugely important.

Speed
10-12-2010, 09:09 AM
I wonder what the really good Pacers teams of the 90s were ranked as far as team rebounding. I really think I remember them being average as a group, I could be wrong.

Unclebuck
10-12-2010, 09:15 AM
I wonder what the really good Pacers teams of the 90s were ranked as far as team rebounding. I really think I remember them being average as a group, I could be wrong.

They were better under Larry Brown than under Bird - especially offensively. I don't know the exact stats. Under Bird I believe they were very solid defensively (top ten) offensively not as good.

In fact they might have been better defensviely under Bird than under Brown - brown doubled teamed more often which will leave more rebounds available.


OK, I looked at the stats.

These are team rebound %

1995 (Brown's second season) - DRB% - .686 - 13th best in the NBA - ORB% .328 - 7th best in the NBA

1998 (Bird's first season) - DRB% .699 - 12th best in the NBA - ORB% .287 - 21st best in the NBA


Pacers were never a great rebounding team and that did hurt them deep in the playoffs, 1994 game #7 at NY and 1998 game #7 at Chicago - pacers were killed on the boards.


.

DaveP63
10-12-2010, 10:17 AM
All of them damn well better...Otherwise it'll be a long year.

MLB007
10-12-2010, 12:10 PM
Say what you will about him getting rebounds, but they weren't offensive or contested rebounds.

Getting rebounds that would otherwise hit the floor (or your teammate's hands) if you didn't catch the ball is not a valuable skill.

:bs:

MLB007
10-12-2010, 12:11 PM
Look on the bright side: the myth of Troy Murphy "stealing" rebounds from his own teammates will either be busted or confirmed....

For the record, their best option is going to be to dust off the corpse of Jeff Foster and handcuff him to Roy Hobbert. Think Weekend at Bernie's, with basketball.

Nope, we need Jeff backing up Roy who still fouls too much.
McBob and Tyler will average 10 rpg between them.

MLB007
10-12-2010, 12:17 PM
I'm obviously not a Tyler believer and this is one area that worries me, his lack of height and hops to get tough boards. I'm hoping lateral quickness and hustle give him a Foster-like advantage,


JEEZUSSS dude, check the FLIPPING physical statistics and GIVE IT A ****ING REST!!


The wild card is Rolle and when you look at the first 3 games you have to wonder why Solo is getting more run than Rolle because they appear to need more of what Rolle brings to the game.

Maybe because it's PRE-SEASON and they want to see what if anything Solo has to offer this year before they whack him.
OR
Maybe they are trying to showcase him a little bit in hopes of pulling a trade.

Either way, you have to wonder about guys worrying about the rotations in the first PRESEASON GAMES!!! :D

Hicks
10-12-2010, 12:45 PM
McBob and Tyler will average 10 rpg between them.

:spitout:

Between them? Wanna bet?

BlueNGold
10-12-2010, 09:37 PM
:spitout:

Between them? Wanna bet?

Last year they averaged 7.8 with a total of 31 minutes between them. McBob hardly played. I suspect one of them is going to get 31 minutes by himself this year...and the other at least 20.

That translates to nearly 13 rebounds assuming they don't improve from last year.

Only if one or both is injured will they average less than 12 boards. More likely it will be 14 or more.

Anthem
10-12-2010, 09:42 PM
:spitout:

Between them? Wanna bet?
He doesn't mean "each," Hicks. He means their total will be over 10rpg. I don't think that's outlandish.

pacer4ever
10-12-2010, 09:49 PM
Dejaun Blair if they would have drafted how i wanted 2 last year. He is down too 8% body fat and is a beast on the boards.

speakout4
10-12-2010, 09:58 PM
There are competitive rebounds and Murphy rebounds. Between Tyler, McRob and Foster there will be more of the former type rebounds. Plus a few more from Hibbert and Granger would be welcome.

Infinite MAN_force
10-12-2010, 10:21 PM
The wild card is Rolle and when you look at the first 3 games you have to wonder why Solo is getting more run than Rolle because they appear to need more of what Rolle brings to the game. I'm worried that Rolle will be added to the long list of guys we'd play right now that JOB will inexplicably sit in moments of clear need.

I think you are right about this, if we lose a rotation big to injury I'm expecting lots of small ball and losses while Rolle sits on the bench. I already have liked what I've seen from Rolle... I think he is better than Solo right now.

Hibbert
10-12-2010, 10:22 PM
Dejaun Blair if they would have drafted how i wanted 2 last year. He is down too 8% body fat and is a beast on the boards.

You are not alone brother. I was and still am confused on our pick with Tyler. There were several players I had pegged ahead of him with Blair being my top choice when our pick came around. I thought for sure it would be him. Look at all the talent Tyler had around him all throughout his college career, several current and future NBA players. Blair, not one. Dejuan averaged 4 more boards than Tyler a game. Tyler is a winner, there is no doubt about that, but I question his skills in the NBA. I don't see him as starting material, he is just not there. Look what Blair did last year, he is nasty, always playing with a chip on his shoulder and showing up much larger opponents night in and night out. He is a force, Tyler is just OK.

Hicks
10-12-2010, 10:58 PM
Last year they averaged 7.8 with a total of 31 minutes between them. McBob hardly played. I suspect one of them is going to get 31 minutes by himself this year...and the other at least 20.

That translates to nearly 13 rebounds assuming they don't improve from last year.

Only if one or both is injured will they average less than 12 boards. More likely it will be 14 or more.


He doesn't mean "each," Hicks. He means their total will be over 10rpg. I don't think that's outlandish.

I think it's outlandishly low to say they'll only average 10 combined.

Infinite MAN_force
10-12-2010, 11:29 PM
My current hunch is Josh is going to have a lot better rebounding numbers than people expect. He will most likely get the majority of Troy's "designated" boards and he will certainly get more offensive rebounds.

BringJackBack
10-12-2010, 11:35 PM
Dejaun Blair if they would have drafted how i wanted 2 last year. He is down too 8% body fat and is a beast on the boards.

Both of the guys I wanted were gone by the time our pick came around. Brandon Jennings and Terrence Williams. We all know about Brandon but Terrence is a very unique player who is really coming around.

So it came time for the pick and for whatever reason I knew we were going to pick Hansbrough. I didn't even fathom thinking about Hansbrough on the Pacers until Conrad Brunner brought it up on the big screen. When he brought it up, me and my cousin both vomitted a little bit. After Jennings and Williams, we wanted Holiday, then Earl Clark (happy we didn't do that), then Blair, then Jeff Teague, then Ty Lawson... but we never thought about getting Darren Collison. I just always saw him as a backup.

Turns out quite different right?

But when we drafted Tyler, my cousin and I talked about it forever and after seeing all of these guys after him besides Ty Lawson, Darren Collison, and Dejuan Blair struggle we felt good about Tyler.

So, even if Tyler is our backup he's going to hit the boards hard with his quick second jump, as well as McRoberts with his hops, and Roy is a pretty good offensive rebounder. With a collective commitment to rebounding, we should be better than next year assuming that Collison, George, Granger, McRoberts (Murphy isn't as good of a rebounder as everyone thinks. Ask Anderson Varejao), and Hibbert hit the boards hard.

Psycho T
10-12-2010, 11:39 PM
Tyler will be fine, imo. He's got an incredible work ethic, and he's proved himself at every level before this. That means something. My biggest issue is with the way he plays, I fear he'll get hit in the head again. I'm still suggesting a helmet.



Thats why he is using a mouthpiece now.. hits to the chin are far more dangerous than hits to the head when it comes to concussions. Thats why all the new NFL helmets protect the jaw and chin.

I reckon he will be fine too.. He will get his share of 10+ board games.

pacer4ever
10-13-2010, 12:15 AM
Dejaun Blair just set a Dale Davis type pick spurs win at the buzzer Blair 21 pts and 6 reb. Also Blake Griffen is a BEAST! 13pts 17boards love NBA TV the best game ive seen so far this season. Rockets play Nets 2morrow at 8 in the moring i cant wait love me some b ball.

BringJackBack
10-13-2010, 12:24 AM
Dejaun Blair just set a Dale Davis type pick spurs win at the buzzer Blair 21 pts and 6 reb. Also Blake Griffen is a BEAST! 13pts 17boards love NBA TV the est game ive seen so far this season. Rockets play Nets 2morrow at 8 in the moring i cant wait love me some b ball.

DeJuan Blair makes Rasho Nesterovic look like Usain Bolt on help defense, running the floor, and switching over.

http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo230/Joe_821/RASHBRUSH.jpg

pacer4ever
10-13-2010, 01:09 AM
DeJuan Blair makes Rasho Nesterovic look like Usain Bolt on help defense, running the floor, and switching over.

http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo230/Joe_821/RASHBRUSH.jpg

not this year he is a lot faster and quicker cut 8% fat i just watched him play he is legit. He plays like Dale Davis. Rasho is the slowest person ever

duke dynamite
10-13-2010, 09:38 AM
DeJuan Blair makes Rasho Nesterovic look like Usain Bolt on help defense, running the floor, and switching over.

http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo230/Joe_821/RASHBRUSH.jpg
RASHO SANGWICH!

flox
10-13-2010, 10:48 AM
Dejuan Blair is a beast this year. He's so good and fast. He's my early candidate to win MIP.

BillS
10-13-2010, 11:40 AM
I think players don't typically get thought of for MIP in their second year, especially if circumstances caused the first year problems.

flox
10-13-2010, 11:47 AM
I think players don't typically get thought of for MIP in their second year, especially if circumstances caused the first year problems.

George Hill was 2nd last year in MIP voting. It was his 2nd year in the league.

Durant was third 2 years ago, in his 2nd year in the league.

Ellis won MIP 3 years ago. He was drafted the year before.

BillS
10-13-2010, 11:54 AM
George Hill was 2nd last year in MIP voting. It was his 2nd year in the league.

Durant was third 2 years ago, in his 2nd year in the league.

Ellis won MIP 3 years ago. He was drafted the year before.

I sit corrected. It was one of the justifications for Danny not being considered after his second year, as I recall.

flox
10-13-2010, 12:12 PM
I sit corrected. It was one of the justifications for Danny not being considered after his second year, as I recall.

Ah, I must have missed that period. It is certainly plausible, both Granger and Brooks were 3rd year players when they won I think. Maybe 2nd years are considered but 3rd years are more likely to win.

BringJackBack
10-13-2010, 04:30 PM
He plays like Dale Davis.

No. Especially considering that Dale was also known for defense, something that Dejuan Blair can't do.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/t8df2zCpypk?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/t8df2zCpypk?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Dejuan Blair also doesn't jump or intimidate anyone.

count55
10-13-2010, 04:50 PM
I sit corrected. It was one of the justifications for Danny not being considered after his second year, as I recall.

There are a lot of people out there who subscribe to the school of thought that second year players shouldn't be considered, because the improvements are often considered the result of acclimation to the league and maturing both mentally and physically.

I understand that to some degree, but I don't agree with it. I'm kind of basic in my interpretation - who "improved" the most. Don't really care why (though I don't consider doubling your scoring in twice the minutes necessarily to be improving, as an example.)

pacer4ever
10-13-2010, 10:30 PM
DG and the est of the boys and hibbert HE WAS A BEAST TONIGHT

BlueNGold
10-13-2010, 10:54 PM
My current hunch is Josh is going to have a lot better rebounding numbers than people expect. He will most likely get the majority of Troy's "designated" boards and he will certainly get more offensive rebounds.

You might be onto something. Josh got 11 boards this evening in only 25 minutes. He got 7 in only 24 minutes against one of the better rebounding teams in the league. The other games he didn't play or didn't play much.

Considering we beat the TWolves on the boards 63-48, I have a feeling we are not going to be worse off this year. ...not with Tyler and Foster possibly helping out too.

Day-V
10-13-2010, 10:57 PM
Dunleavy did a good job tonight on the boards.

Mackey_Rose
10-14-2010, 08:44 AM
I think it's outlandishly low to say they'll only average 10 combined.

If we only get 10 rebounds a game out of those two, we are in for a lot of trouble.

I would expect the number to be closer to 15 a game between them.

WhackoJacko
10-14-2010, 09:38 AM
You might be onto something. Josh got 11 boards this evening in only 25 minutes. He got 7 in only 24 minutes against one of the better rebounding teams in the league. The other games he didn't play or didn't play much.

Considering we beat the TWolves on the boards 63-48, I have a feeling we are not going to be worse off this year. ...not with Tyler and Foster possibly helping out too.

Hmmm, we still lost so what has changed?

Trader Joe
10-14-2010, 09:51 AM
We had a great effort on the boards last night, the big thing was that even though guys like Tyler weren't dominating the boards, every big man, Roy, Josh, Tyler, Jeff, were doing a great job putting a body on their man and BLOCKING OUT. This let Danny get a ton of easy rebounds and really cut back on some of the stupid second chances you sometimes saw teams get against us.

In the end rebounding is not about how high you can jump or anything like that, it's not even necessarily about how tall you are (though that does help), it is all about positioning and more importantly than that, rebounding is a TEAM EFFORT.

Trader Joe
10-14-2010, 09:52 AM
Hmmm, we still lost so what has changed?

We didn't lose last night...

WhackoJacko
10-14-2010, 10:32 AM
We didn't lose last night...

You passed the test, bingo.

pacer4ever
10-14-2010, 11:29 AM
Dunleavy did a good job tonight on the boards.

yes him and paul were working hard on the boards

Speed
10-14-2010, 11:36 AM
every big man, Roy, Josh, Tyler, Jeff, were doing a great job putting a body on their man and BLOCKING OUT.


This I gotta see, can't wait until the game Friday.

pacer4ever
10-14-2010, 11:52 AM
This I gotta see, can't wait until the game Friday.

we played hard last night. When we put in Posey and i forget the rest we struggled a little but they figured it out and played really well.(except Posey) I would be fine with him if he looked like he hustled

flox
10-14-2010, 01:49 PM
It was the Timberwolves. They have one quality rebounder.

pacer4ever
10-14-2010, 01:51 PM
It was the Timberwolves. They have one quality rebounder.

Klove, petrivic looks like he will be a pretty decent rebounder

flox
10-14-2010, 03:08 PM
Klove, petrivic looks like he will be a pretty decent rebounder

I agree, he has potential, but it's his rookie year. Needs to adjust to NBA game. This early in the season, he shouldn't be as good of a rebounder as he was in Europe.

cordobes
10-14-2010, 04:58 PM
I thought Pekovic wasn't that good of a rebounder in Europe and I'm expecting him to be average at best in the NBA.

I'm not expecting the Wolves to be a bad rebounding team though. Love is one of the best rebounders in the league, he enjoys working the boards and should play a lot of minutes. He can easily make up for Milicic + Tolliver below average rebounding. They seem to be inclined to play Beasley at the 3 primarily and at that position his rebounding should become a magnificent asset. Webster is also excellent for a 2-guard. Brewer is passable. Johnson seems to do a good work on the boards as well. So, with Love + good rebounding from the backcourt + no massive liability getting big minutes, I'd expect them to be at least average rebounding wise.

avoidingtheclowns
10-14-2010, 05:03 PM
Ah, I must have missed that period. It is certainly plausible, both Granger and Brooks were 3rd year players when they won I think. Maybe 2nd years are considered but 3rd years are more likely to win.

Actually, it was Granger's fourth year (2009). Hedo won the year before and Dunleavy was near the top of the voting (2nd or 3rd perhaps?).

BringJackBack
10-14-2010, 09:10 PM
Actually, it was Granger's fourth year (2009). Hedo won the year before and Dunleavy was near the top of the voting (2nd or 3rd perhaps?).

I personally think that the MIP should go to players that are 25-30 range in age that show significant, and random, improvement than the year before.

You expect young players to improve simply because they are stronger and "learn the ropes," so to speak.

I know that Most IMPROVED Player to apply to everyone, as it does, but I think that it should go to established players who put a conceited effort to get very significantly better.

BlueNGold
10-14-2010, 10:56 PM
It was the Timberwolves. They have one quality rebounder.

They were 8th in the NBA last season for rebounds. They also were 3-0 in the preseason until we crushed them. Their wins included a contest where they destroyed the Knicks on the boards 62-35....yet we destroyed them on the boards. In any event, I'm not sure how their one good rebounder grabbed 62.

I think part of my issue with this is that some people were claiming that losing Murphy meant that we would be in the cellar of the NBA in the rebounding department. I can't wait for this season to start so this is laid to rest. No, this team is not going to be above average on the boards unless we are very, very fortunate. I expect us to be roughly where we were last year notwithstanding Murphy's absence. My bet is we are a little better, but there will not be a big jump.

flox
10-15-2010, 02:15 PM
They were 8th in the NBA last season for rebounds. They also were 3-0 in the preseason until we crushed them.
They had Al Jefferson. Now they don't.



Their wins included a contest where they destroyed the Knicks on the boards 62-35....yet we destroyed them on the boards. In any event, I'm not sure how their one good rebounder grabbed 62.

Look at that game. Their guards got like 4+ rebounds each, the Knicks shot 10 more shots and only shot 40%, and the Knicks aren't a good rebounding team. They have Turiaf and Amare- who combine to form one good rebounder.


I think part of my issue with this is that some people were claiming that losing Murphy meant that we would be in the cellar of the NBA in the rebounding department. I can't wait for this season to start so this is laid to rest. No, this team is not going to be above average on the boards unless we are very, very fortunate. I expect us to be roughly where we were last year notwithstanding Murphy's absence. My bet is we are a little better, but there will not be a big jump.

I disagree, but we'll see.

BlueNGold
10-15-2010, 08:17 PM
We are up on New Orleans on the boards so far tonight 24-16. How can this possibly be happening without Troy on the floor? It's a team effort. 8 players with between 2 and 5 boards.

BTW, the last game we played New Orleans on Feb. 19th, Darren Collison had 13 boards and Murphy had 7. We lost the game and the battle of the boards 56-35.

The game prior to that, we lost on the boards 49-37 to the Hornets. Again, another game with Murphy cleaning the glass.

It's ok Flox. I'll wait to really pile on sometime in December...

Hibbert
10-15-2010, 08:39 PM
It was the Timberwolves. They have one quality rebounder.

I disagree and I know its only preseason but they are second in the league in rebounds as a team right now. Anthony Tolliver IMHO is a quality rebounder. When started at center last year he averaged 8.2 a game, 2 1/2 more than our second best rebounder.

flox
10-15-2010, 09:23 PM
We are up on New Orleans on the boards so far tonight 24-16. How can this possibly be happening without Troy on the floor? It's a team effort. 8 players with between 2 and 5 boards.

BTW, the last game we played New Orleans on Feb. 19th, Darren Collison had 13 boards and Murphy had 7. We lost the game and the battle of the boards 56-35.

The game prior to that, we lost on the boards 49-37 to the Hornets. Again, another game with Murphy cleaning the glass.

It's ok Flox. I'll wait to really pile on sometime in December...
They aren't even playing West and they are giving minutes to Pops and Alexander and Smith.


I disagree and I know its only preseason but they are second in the league in rebounds as a team right now. Anthony Tolliver IMHO is a quality rebounder. When started at center last year he averaged 8.2 a game, 2 1/2 more than our second best rebounder.

Ok, maybe. I remember watching him when he was playing for the Spurs and he was not a quality rebounder when I saw him last. But wasn't he playing for the Warriors last year? He was probably the tallest Warrior on the field.

BlueNGold
10-15-2010, 09:43 PM
They aren't even playing West and they are giving minutes to Pops and Alexander and Smith.

He averaged 7.5 last year and we were up 8 in the first half before Granger went out. Posey was their 3rd best rebounder last year...and what is he on the Pacers?

The only reason this is not a complete blow-out is because Granger and Rush are out and therefore have not been able to control Ariza and Belinelli...along with the fact this is a tough match-up for Hibbert. We still would have spanked them if both Granger and West were in the game.

The reality is, New Orleans is worse than the Pacers on the boards...last year and even more this year. Tonight is no exception. At worst, the variance is about the same...

flox
10-15-2010, 09:50 PM
He averaged 7.5 last year and we were up 8 in the first half before Granger went out. Posey was their 3rd best rebounder last year...and what is he on the Pacers?

The only reason this is not a complete blow-out is because Granger and Rush are out and therefore have not been able to control Ariza and Belinelli...along with the fact this is a tough match-up for Hibbert. We still would have spanked them if both Granger and West were in the game.

The reality is, New Orleans is worse than the Pacers on the boards...last year and even more this year. Tonight is no exception. At worst, the variance is about the same...

The upgrade from Pops and Smith to West is huge, in the context of this game.

Justin Tyme
10-15-2010, 10:00 PM
I believe it's quite apparent where the rebounding is going to come from this year. McBob and Hans are more than going to replace Murphy's easy rebs. I saw Hans grabs rebounds and take the ball away from the opposing team players more than Murphy did the whole time he was a Pacers player.

BlueNGold
10-15-2010, 10:23 PM
I believe it's quite apparent where the rebounding is going to come from this year. McBob and Hans are more than going to replace Murphy's easy rebs. I saw Hans grabs rebounds and take the ball away from the opposing team players more than Murphy did the whole time he was a Pacers player.

You are just-in-time, my friend. Murphy never pulled rebounds away and rarely grabbed them in traffic because he can't do that. He thrives in a run and gun offense where long rebounds come out to the charity stripe for him to snag. He does that very, very well.

Now if you are in a competitive ball game where you need to control the boards and get up on the glass, he's not going to help you there. Too weak.

In any event, take heart. McBob and Hans will average more boards than Troy this year. I think they grabbed 13 or something this evening. Team rebounds are going up too....and George pulled down 7 tonight. We still don't have a dominant rebounder on this team that can go to the glass and yank them down, but we have players more capable of doing it on the floor....and that will lead to more wins.

BlueNGold
10-15-2010, 10:28 PM
The upgrade from Pops and Smith to West is huge, in the context of this game.

Yes, West would have been the difference for them tonight. ...but you can't have it both ways. I think when you have Granger and Rush unavailable...along with rookies backing up the position and Dunleavy getting hammered...that kind of masked what would have happened in this game.

This debate cannot be put to rest until later this year.

pacer4ever
10-15-2010, 10:37 PM
are wings are rebounding really well

cordobes
10-18-2010, 05:52 PM
I disagree and I know its only preseason but they are second in the league in rebounds as a team right now. Anthony Tolliver IMHO is a quality rebounder. When started at center last year he averaged 8.2 a game, 2 1/2 more than our second best rebounder.

I like Tolliver since he the Cavs had him on their training camp a few years ago and I've probably been the only person out of his inner family saying he deserves a NBA contract all these years, but he's not really a good rebounder. He works hard on the boards, he boxes out, he's tenacious going after loose balls, he'll throw his body around to protect his space and I think that makes him a respectable rebounder for the type of player he is, but he's still subpar. Just too limited in terms of size/athleticism/nose for the ball to be a quality rebounder.

Don't let rebounds per game/minute stats mislead you. The Warriors play(ed?) at a frenetic pace, there were lots of shots taken in their games, hence lots of missed shots, therefore lots of rebounding opportunities. Tolliver's raw numbers are just a product of that + the fact he didn't have much help from his teammates.

Rebounding rate is a better metric to compare players' rebounding abilities, use it instead. Tolliver's TRB% last season was 12.5%. That makes him 48th amongst NBA centers last season - 0.1% above Roy Hibbert (and below Krstic by the same margin).

flox
10-18-2010, 05:54 PM
Thanks for clearing that up cordobes

cordobes
10-18-2010, 05:54 PM
I think part of my issue with this is that some people were claiming that losing Murphy meant that we would be in the cellar of the NBA in the rebounding department. I can't wait for this season to start so this is laid to rest. No, this team is not going to be above average on the boards unless we are very, very fortunate. I expect us to be roughly where we were last year notwithstanding Murphy's absence. My bet is we are a little better, but there will not be a big jump.

How come? The Pacers were in the cellar of the NBA last season rebounding-wise. I agree with you that losing Murphy won't have much of a negative effect, but where will the improvement come from?

PS - I figured reading the other posts you were using rebounding total numbers. I'd give the same advise, look at the rebounding rate. Pacers' numbers are inflated because of the pace they played at. Check this table:
http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/reboundRate

BlueNGold
10-18-2010, 07:23 PM
How come? The Pacers were in the cellar of the NBA last season rebounding-wise. I agree with you that losing Murphy won't have much of a negative effect, but where will the improvement come from?

PS - I figured reading the other posts you were using rebounding total numbers. I'd give the same advise, look at the rebounding rate. Pacers' numbers are inflated because of the pace they played at. Check this table:
http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/reboundRate

Thanks. I agree. I didn't realize it was quite that bad (2nd to last). I think I simply looked at total team rebounds....without looking at opponent stats. I suppose I should not be surprised.

At its core, my argument is that Murphy's presence or absence does little to help or hurt us on the boards. Where will the improvement come from (if any)? Tyler and McBob are more willing to bang and grab difficult, contended rebounds...and rip the ball away in Tyler's case....while Murphy was a master at swooping and snagging boards in large numbers while the teams were running...usually before they slowed it down in the 4th quarter to get the W. That's the main issue with Troy. When you actually need to control the boards, he has a more difficult time living up to his rebound stats. He is simply not a banger and when teams are placing value on possessions, they fight a lot harder for them and are simply less careless with their possessions...reducing the value of his skill set at crunch time. This is why our relatively young double-double starting PF is no longer on the team....AND why people love the Collison trade.

TooBigNdaPaint
10-18-2010, 08:05 PM
If the Pacers expect to make the playoffs this year, JOB will need to give George additional minutes to help McBob/Tyler and Hibbert fight for rebounds (both offensive and defensive). Danny will also need to get his share of these rebounds instead of just watching the action from the 3pt line. When the shot goes up, we should have body on body and no less that 3 players (preferrably 4 players) going for the rebound. We've all seen too many defensive possessions lost when only McBob/Tyler or Hibbert are fighting for the rebound. Since there are so many 'long and lean' guys in the NBA, there will be many 'tipped' balls and having defensive numbers (i.e. more defensive players than our opponent) will ensure that WE get a even higher percentage of these loose balls. Yes, Tyler or McBob will rip one or two rebounds away from an opponent from time to time but this is not the preferred method of rebounding loose balls nor does it guarantee rebounding success for the Pacers over the long NBA season and playoffs. I feel very confident that if JOB goes with an athletic starting lineup (i.e. Rush starts at SG when he gets back from his suspension), we'll have the BEST team rebounding numbers since the Davis boys ruled the paint. This means that Dun-Dun moves to SF with the 2nd unit. Lance should eventually make his mark with the 2nd unit as a combo guard (PG/SG) with George and Tyler to really give the Pacers the best rebounding and defensive team that they've had in years. It's all up to JOB to make this happen. There's NO excuse anymore (and sitting Lance on the bench when he's a mismatch as a combo guard is not in the Pacer's best interest).

pacer4ever
10-18-2010, 09:25 PM
If the Pacers expect to make the playoffs this year, JOB will need to give George additional minutes to help McBob/Tyler and Hibbert fight for rebounds (both offensive and defensive). Danny will also need to get his share of these rebounds instead of just watching the action from the 3pt line. When the shot goes up, we should have body on body and no less that 3 players (preferrably 4 players) going for the rebound. We've all seen too many defensive possessions lost when only McBob/Tyler or Hibbert are fighting for the rebound. Since there are so many 'long and lean' guys in the NBA, there will be many 'tipped' balls and having defensive numbers (i.e. more defensive players than our opponent) will ensure that WE get a even higher percentage of these loose balls. Yes, Tyler or McBob will rip one or two rebounds away from an opponent from time to time but this is not the preferred method of rebounding loose balls nor does it guarantee rebounding success for the Pacers over the long NBA season and playoffs. I feel very confident that if JOB goes with an athletic starting lineup (i.e. Rush starts at SG when he gets back from his suspension), we'll have the BEST team rebounding numbers since the Davis boys ruled the paint. This means that Dun-Dun moves to SF with the 2nd unit. Lance should eventually make his mark with the 2nd unit as a combo guard (PG/SG) with George and Tyler to really give the Pacers the best rebounding and defensive team that they've had in years. It's all up to JOB to make this happen. There's NO excuse anymore (and sitting Lance on the bench when he's a mismatch as a combo guard is not in the Pacer's best interest).

i doubt JOB is smart enoght to understand that Lance could be really good for us this year. PG24 is a great on the boards like u said we need him out there. I wish u were the coach(or anyone that isnt JOB) i love everything u said in this post.

flox
10-18-2010, 11:31 PM
If the Pacers expect to make the playoffs this year, JOB will need to give George additional minutes to help McBob/Tyler and Hibbert fight for rebounds (both offensive and defensive). Danny will also need to get his share of these rebounds instead of just watching the action from the 3pt line. When the shot goes up, we should have body on body
and no less that 3 players (preferrably 4 players) going for the rebound.]

We would be DEAD last in the nba in transition points and would have the worst eFG% in the league if we did that.

We've all seen too many defensive possessions lost when only McBob/Tyler or Hibbert are fighting for the rebound. Since there are so many 'long and lean' guys in the NBA, there will be many 'tipped' balls and having defensive numbers (i.e. more defensive players than our opponent) will ensure that WE get a even higher percentage of these loose balls. Yes, Tyler or McBob will rip one or two rebounds away from an opponent from time to time but this is not the preferred method of rebounding loose balls nor does it guarantee rebounding success for the Pacers over the long NBA season and playoffs. I feel very confident that if JOB goes with an athletic starting lineup (i.e. Rush starts at SG when he gets back from his suspension), we'll have the BEST team rebounding numbers since the Davis boys ruled the paint.
Ok..neither tyler nor josh has proved that they are average rebounders in the NBA, let alone at the level of the Davis boys...



This means that Dun-Dun moves to SF with the 2nd unit. Lance should eventually make his mark with the 2nd unit as a combo guard (PG/SG) with George and Tyler to really give the Pacers the best rebounding and defensive team that they've had in years. It's all up to JOB to make this happen. There's NO excuse anymore (and sitting Lance on the bench when he's a mismatch as a combo guard is not in the Pacer's best interest).
Yeah, because he could probably score 18 points and give up 30 defensively. I'd love to have that matchup.

imawhat
10-18-2010, 11:53 PM
I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet, but here are some team rebounding numbers from last season (courtesy of Hicks' recommendation of 82games).

Offensive Rebounding
23.2% with Murphy on the court
26.1% with Murphy off the court

Defensive Rebounding
70.0% with Murphy on the court
70.5% with Murphy off the court

Total Rebounding
46.6% with Murphy on the court
48.3% with Murphy off the court

We were a better rebounding team with Murphy off the court for 3 of the 4 seasons he was here. I fully expect us to be better this year as well.

Midcoasted
10-19-2010, 12:13 AM
I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet, but here are some team rebounding numbers from last season (courtesy of Hicks' recommendation of 82games).

Offensive Rebounding
23.2% with Murphy on the court
26.1% with Murphy off the court

Defensive Rebounding
70.0% with Murphy on the court
70.5% with Murphy off the court

Total Rebounding
46.6% with Murphy on the court
48.3% with Murphy off the court

We were a better rebounding team with Murphy off the court for 3 of the 4 seasons he was here. I fully expect us to be better this year as well.

We also didn't have post bangers at the PF like we do Hansbrough and McRoberts those four seasons. This should go in the predicition thread, but I think we will be a much better rebounding team this year. I expect us to out-rebound more than half of our opponents this year. I think there is an emphasis on the gaurds to get more boards. Paul George will help us alot here, and I think Granger may even up his numbers.

We have not had two legit bangers at PF since the Davis boys, and this is the best Hibbert has ever looked rebounding the ball. I think the potential is there for us to be in the top 15 in rebounding this year. I really think that this team is going one place, and that's to the playoffs. :dance::happydanc

BlueNGold
10-31-2010, 11:49 AM
Last year they averaged 7.8 with a total of 31 minutes between them. McBob hardly played. I suspect one of them is going to get 31 minutes by himself this year...and the other at least 20.

That translates to nearly 13 rebounds assuming they don't improve from last year.

Only if one or both is injured will they average less than 12 boards. More likely it will be 14 or more.

Tyler is averaging 5.5 boards in 21 minutes. McBob is averaging 7.3 boards in 23 minutes. This is less time on the floor than I had anticipated due to the Posey/Solo debacle...but they are still nearly 13 rebounds. Give them more time, and I think we may be looking at closer to 15 boards on average.

It will soon be a proven fact that we are better on the boards this year.

imawhat
10-31-2010, 11:56 AM
Here's an underrated cause. With Troy on the floor our opponents took better shots and we were in worse position as a resul of compensating for Troy's defensive mistakes. Now our defense is better and we're in better position, hence the improved rebounding.

BlueNGold
10-31-2010, 12:14 PM
Here's an underrated cause. With Troy on the floor our opponents took better shots and we were in worse position as a resul of compensating for Troy's defensive mistakes. Now our defense is better and we're in better position, hence the improved rebounding.

I agree. Hibbert is averaging 10 boards a game. Last year it was only 5.7. Some of that is due to conditioning. Some is related to what you describe. When Roy is not distracted by having to guard Murphy's man as much, he's not as ready or positioned as well to grab rebounds himself.

I do think Murphy is a better defensive rebounder than Tyler and McBob...but not when it comes to tough boards where you have to box out and fight for boards. That's where Tyler has shined and it has led to victories.

Finally, sanity reigns.

MLB007
10-31-2010, 01:07 PM
I believe it's quite apparent where the rebounding is going to come from this year. McBob and Hans are more than going to replace Murphy's easy rebs. I saw Hans grabs rebounds and take the ball away from the opposing team players more than Murphy did the whole time he was a Pacers player.

I think THAT is one of those "Does All the Little Things" that REALLY is measurable.
If 2 guys get their hands on the ball and one of them is Tyler, IT"S OUR BALL.
That adds up to a possession or two a game, and the same LESS for the other team.
Huge
And hardly noticed by most fans.
Good on ya' :happydanc

MLB007
10-31-2010, 01:11 PM
i doubt JOB is smart enoght to understand that Lance could be really good for us this year. PG24 is a great on the boards like u said we need him out there. I wish u were the coach(or anyone that isnt JOB) i love everything u said in this post.

I'm really glad you guys aren't our coach. ;) :p

MLB007
10-31-2010, 01:24 PM
Here's an underrated cause. With Troy on the floor our opponents took better shots and we were in worse position as a resul of compensating for Troy's defensive mistakes. Now our defense is better and we're in better position, hence the improved rebounding.

That's a good point.
McBob has already changed more shots in the paint than Murph did the whole season.
And Tyler stops guys from getting into the paint to begin with for those easy shots.
We are contesting a lot more shots, and not just from those two.
It is pretty nicely congested in the paint now with Roy,Tyler/McBob,Danny and a Paul George and Dunleavy helping from the backcourt.
Remember SO many times last year when somebody got beat it was usually a layup drill.
NOW we've got guys helping and in position and with the physical attributes to make a difference when someone comes down the lane. ;)

We get Brandon back (who is a pretty good rebounder for a 2) and we are "getting" pretty darn good looking in this regard moving forward. :dance:

pacer4ever
10-31-2010, 01:28 PM
I'm really glad you guys aren't our coach. ;) :p

Lance would not be in the rotation . I just would not play posey and solo a min. And once Brush comes back i would move mike to backup SF. I think u mis understood wat i was saying. I actually would send lance to the D-league if i was the coach.

cordobes
10-31-2010, 04:05 PM
Where's the improvement relatively to the past season coming from?

Danny Granger is posting a 12.5 TRB%. That's by far his career best - he had a 9.2% TRB 3 years ago.

Mike Dunleavy is posting a 11.1 TRB% and even more impressively a 20.1% DRR%. Those would also be two career highs.

For the sake of comparison, the only wing who regularly ends up with those kind of numbers is LeBron James - and he always plays some time at the 4. Even for James his career high is 11.9%.

And Paul George is showing to be an elite rebounder - 9.1 TRB%.

This level of rebounding from the wings is unprecedented in the history of the NBA.

Then Hibber is rebounding at a 16.8%. That's a 4.4% jump from his numbers last season. He went from being a lousy rebounder to be an above average rebounder. His new body explains part of that.

And finnaly you have McRoberts whose improvement comes exclusively from the offensive rebounding - he's rebounding 17.1% of the Pacers misses. In the last 15 years, how many guys did that for a season (playing a minimum of 1000 minutes)? Rodman did it twice, Jayson Williams did it twice and Danny Forston did it once (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1996&year_max=2010&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&lg_id=&franch_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=orb_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=17.7&c2stat=mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=1000&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=ws). No active player in the NBA has ever achieved that mark.

Even with those improvements, Indiana ranks as the 20th rebounding team with a 49% RR. Two seasons ago they ended the season in the 18th spot league-wide with a 49.8% RR.

PaceBalls
10-31-2010, 04:22 PM
Where's the improvement relatively to the past season coming from?

Danny Granger is posting a 12.5 TRB%. That's by far his career best - he had a 9.2% TRB 3 years ago.

Mike Dunleavy is posting a 11.1 TRB% and even more impressively a 20.1% DRR%. Those would also be two career highs.

For the sake of comparison, the only wing who regularly ends up with those kind of numbers is LeBron James - and he always plays some time at the 4. Even for James his career high is 11.9%.

And Paul George is showing to be an elite rebounder - 9.1 TRB%.

This level of rebounding from the wings is unprecedented in the history of the NBA.

Then Hibber is rebounding at a 16.8%. That's a 4.4% jump from his numbers last season. He went from being a lousy rebounder to be an above average rebounder. His new body explains part of that.

And finnaly you have McRoberts whose improvement comes exclusively from the offensive rebounding - he's rebounding 17.1% of the Pacers misses. In the last 15 years, how many guys did that for a season (playing a minimum of 1000 minutes)? Rodman did it twice, Jayson Williams did it twice and Danny Forston did it once (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1996&year_max=2010&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&lg_id=&franch_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=orb_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=17.7&c2stat=mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=1000&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=ws). No active player in the NBA has ever achieved that mark.

Even with those improvements, Indiana ranks as the 20th rebounding team with a 49% RR. Two seasons ago they ended the season in the 18th spot league-wide with a 49.8% RR.

Thanks for the stats analysis, but these stats must be very misleading. It seems like the stats are saying we have some of the greatest of all time rebounders (after only three games) at the important positions yet we are 20th in the league? How is that possible? I suppose alot of the minutes going to Posey and Solo which do not contribute many rebounds would explain part of it, but are they that bad compared to how good the rest of the players are? Maybe the PGs aren't carrying their fair share of the load too.

Very interesting stats cordrobes.

edit: ok I see where I was getting messed up. It is team rebounding % so even though these guys are getting record breaking %'s of the teams boards the team is still averaging a below average number of rebs.

cordobes
10-31-2010, 04:36 PM
Thanks for the stats analysis, but these stats must be very misleading. It seems like the stats are saying we have some of the greatest of all time rebounders (after only three games) at the important positions yet we are 20th in the league? How is that possible? I suppose alot of the minutes going to Posey and Solo which do not contribute many rebounds would explain part of it, but are they that bad compared to how good the rest of the players are? Maybe the PGs aren't carrying their fair share of the load too.

Very interesting stats cordrobes.

edit: ok I see where I was getting messed up. It is team rebounding % so even though these guys are getting record breaking %'s of the teams boards the team is still averaging a below average number of rebs.


It's a product of small sampling. Things will even out eventually. Some guys will rebound more, some less. After 3 games, you can get a misleading idea of how a given player rebounding projects for the future.

p.s. - Disregard my numbers about Granger, I did mistake his defensive rebounding with his total rebounding. There, Granger will be able to pick up some slack from the inevitable decline of some guys numbers.

BlueNGold
10-31-2010, 04:56 PM
Actually, Granger's TRB% is the lowest of his career. The 12.5% was in 2005-06. His TRB% this year is only 6.6%. His numbers clearly reflect this stat. In nearly 38 minutes, he's grabbing 4.3 boards of the 40.3 this year. Last year he was more effective and active on the boards. In just 36 minutes he grabbed 5.5 boards of the 41.5.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/grangda01.html
Source: Basketball Reference.com

The rebounding situation is improved from last year because Roy Hibbert is able to stay on the floor and remain effective. Also, Josh McRoberts and Tyler Hansborough are getting time. If the Pacers gave all of Solo and Posey's minutes to those two energizer bunnies...we might possibly be slightly above average in the NBA. Finally, yes Dunleavy is in fact grabbing a lot more rebounds...making his best Murphy impression.

vnzla81
10-31-2010, 05:00 PM
yes Dunleavy is in fact grabbing a lot more rebounds...making his best Murphy impression.


:laugh: I was thinking the same thing yesterday, he was stealing rebounds left and right :laugh:

Psycho T
10-31-2010, 06:52 PM
I think the amount of rebounds a player gets is a bit overrated.. What I watch for is how well a person boxes out no matter if they are under the rim or 15 feet out.

Thats what I like about Hansbrough.. No matter where he is on the floor he finds his man while the ball is in the air and boxes him out. That means more chances for everyone else to get the board.

McBob does this decently also.

Something that really wasnt in Murphys game.

cordobes
10-31-2010, 06:59 PM
Actually, Granger's TRB% is the lowest of his career. The 12.5% was in 2005-06. His TRB% this year is only 6.6%. His numbers clearly reflect this stat. In nearly 38 minutes, he's grabbing 4.3 boards of the 40.3 this year. Last year he was more effective and active on the boards. In just 36 minutes he grabbed 5.5 boards of the 41.5.

Correct, I mentioned that in my previous post, 12.3 is his defensive rr.


The rebounding situation is improved from last year because Roy Hibbert is able to stay on the floor and remain effective

It's not only about playing time, he's rebounding a lot more. His rebounding per 36 minutes increased 25% from his first 2 seasons.



If the Pacers gave all of Solo and Posey's minutes to those two energizer bunnies...we might possibly be slightly above average in the NBA

I haven't done the math, but I doubt that would be enough unless McRoberts keeps getting 5 ORs for game, which is unlikely. You need further improvement from all those guys.

BlueNGold
10-31-2010, 07:00 PM
I think the amount of rebounds a player gets is a bit overrated.. What I watch for is how well a person boxes out no matter if they are under the rim or 15 feet out.

Thats what I like about Hansbrough.. No matter where he is on the floor he finds his man while the ball is in the air and boxes him out. That means more chances for everyone else to get the board.

McBob does this decently also.

Something that really wasnt in Murphys game.

Yes. Tyler, especially, is capable of ripping away contested boards. Those types of boards are FAR more valuable. This is one reason stats lie so terribly to us all. One rebound near the end of the 4th quarter is not equal to another earlier in the game.

BTW, this is one of the reasons the Pacers will win more games this year.

croz24
10-31-2010, 08:12 PM
troy was a pathetic rebounder. don't care what sorts of defensive rebounding numbers he put up. but for a power forward to only averaged 1.8 orpg, that is really quite pitiful. also, as some have mentioned, troy never grabbed the type of dirty rebounds that hansbrough grabbed last night. troy is a jason kidd-like rebounder, which is not what we need from the power forward position.

Naptown_Seth
11-02-2010, 12:36 AM
I think Josh, Roy and Tyler set each other up for rebounds much better than we saw from the team in the past. We've noted that a guy like Roy will box out and help others get a board, but it's much more obvious and extreme this season. The blatantly tap boards toward each other or force each other's man out of the picture.

My favorite thing about this team by a long shot is the interaction of those 3 players across the board. They look in synch with each other.

Sookie
11-02-2010, 01:04 AM
I think Josh, Roy and Tyler set each other up for rebounds much better than we saw from the team in the past. We've noted that a guy like Roy will box out and help others get a board, but it's much more obvious and extreme this season. The blatantly tap boards toward each other or force each other's man out of the picture.

My favorite thing about this team by a long shot is the interaction of those 3 players across the board. They look in synch with each other.

They do.

Honestly, I wasn't completely on board with you with Josh. I saw athletic potential (which, truly, Stanley Robinson has made me wary of..probably for good. :P), but I would have said he looked..unaware. (although, I still would have played him over Dun and Dahntay at the PF position..as most sane people would..)

But I've completely changed my opinion on him. He's an incredibly skilled player. And being so young, certainly has the potential to be a good starter (if he's not already) And I really like the Tyler/Josh duo.

And the funny thing is..this offense truly fits Josh. I think JOB has tried to work Hibbert into it. And as I've been saying, AJ can play in any offense and look efficient, but this offense looks built for Josh. He's being used as the main creater (him and Hibbert) utilizing his passing skills. And he's been allowed to do what he's good at, and it works in this offense. And it's funny, because he's the one player where I'd definitely say "this offense is built for him" And it's a good thing..because our post play has been good, and Hibbert plays so well off of Josh. (See, I can be fair and compliment O'brien when I think he deserves it. :P)

I said in another thread, my brain tells me we'll need an upgrade at PF at some point..but I keep SEEING that these two are doing a darn good job..and that actually, our weak point (once a certain backup PG moves on to a new team) is actually backup center, and shooting guard -despite how many we have. (For the moment, lets see how George developes. Because I'd think that ideally we'd want George to be the third star with Roy and Granger, and hopefully develope into a fantastic shooting guard in a few years..but that's in a few years, not now. :P)

BlueNGold
11-02-2010, 08:59 AM
I think Josh, Roy and Tyler set each other up for rebounds much better than we saw from the team in the past. We've noted that a guy like Roy will box out and help others get a board, but it's much more obvious and extreme this season. The blatantly tap boards toward each other or force each other's man out of the picture.

My favorite thing about this team by a long shot is the interaction of those 3 players across the board. They look in synch with each other.

A big part of success at the PF position is toughness and physicality. We are finally seeing some of that after falling from Dale Davis all the way down to Troy Murphy.

It all comes down to fighting for the ball and boxing out. Tyler and McBob will give you the effort and both are naturally aggressive. Both love to play the game and I'm really looking forward to McBob physically maturing. I recall a young Jeff Foster who was pretty skinny...and then he became a pretty sturdy dude. McBob should continue to pump iron and he may become a serious force.

In any event, they are an interesting combination to watch...and can be used to contend with different types of players in the NBA. Their differences make it more difficult for teams to cause us mismatch problems...which should help us win more games.

WhackoJacko
11-02-2010, 10:55 AM
Yes. Tyler, especially, is capable of ripping away contested boards. Those types of boards are FAR more valuable. This is one reason stats lie so terribly to us all. One rebound near the end of the 4th quarter is not equal to another earlier in the game.
BTW, this is one of the reasons the Pacers will win more games this year.

What? I suppose they should just fast forward and skip the first three quarters of all games.

BRushWithDeath
11-02-2010, 11:14 AM
What? I suppose they should just fast forward and skip the first three quarters of all games.

McRoberts and Hansbrough have gotten more tough rebounds in 3 games than Murphy in 3 seasons.

BlueNGold
11-02-2010, 11:48 AM
What? I suppose they should just fast forward and skip the first three quarters of all games.

No, but against good teams, the 4th quarter is critical. For example, in our only loss San Antonio shut us down in the 4th.

The last few years, teams have toyed with the Pacers during the first 3 quarters...having a good time with playground ball. Then, they went to work in the 4th to get the W. They will have a more difficult time doing that this year...because we have guys now who will fight for boards down the stretch.

WhackoJacko
11-02-2010, 12:42 PM
McRoberts and Hansbrough have gotten more tough rebounds in 3 games than Murphy in 3 seasons.

Now where is my post did I mention Murphy? Most here seem to be fixated on a player that is not on the team. Give it a rest and move on. :)

BlueNGold
11-13-2010, 10:01 PM
.bump

After 10% of the games, the sample size is getting bigger. I'm sure the excuses will continue until game 80 or so...but I find it unlikely we will be as bad on the boards as last year, even though the great Murphy is gone. Not only is this team more competitive, we are a better rebounding team. Kind of funny that people thought we would be considerably worse on the boards...

This season:
Opponent RB: 42.6
Pacer RB: 42.4

Last season
Opponent RB: 46.6
Pacer RB: 41.5

Infinite MAN_force
11-13-2010, 11:05 PM
.bump

After 10% of the games, the sample size is getting bigger. I'm sure the excuses will continue until game 80 or so...but I find it unlikely we will be as bad on the boards as last year, even though the great Murphy is gone. Not only is this team more competitive, we are a better rebounding team. Kind of funny that people thought we would be considerably worse on the boards...

This season:
Opponent RB: 42.6
Pacer RB: 42.4

Last season
Opponent RB: 46.6
Pacer RB: 41.5

I have been a huge proponent of the fact that we will be a better rebounding team WITHOUT Murphy. I'm glad to see my theory proven thus far.

croz24
11-13-2010, 11:50 PM
nearly all of murphy's rebounds were of the cheap variety and 90% of them were defensive rebounds

MLB007
11-14-2010, 02:15 PM
nearly all of murphy's rebounds were of the cheap variety and 90% of them were defensive rebounds

Can we get a thumbs down icon?
or bring back the beaten horse...........

flox
11-16-2010, 08:02 PM
.bump

After 10% of the games, the sample size is getting bigger. I'm sure the excuses will continue until game 80 or so...but I find it unlikely we will be as bad on the boards as last year, even though the great Murphy is gone. Not only is this team more competitive, we are a better rebounding team. Kind of funny that people thought we would be considerably worse on the boards...

This season:
Opponent RB: 42.6
Pacer RB: 42.4

Last season
Opponent RB: 46.6
Pacer RB: 41.5

8 games. 1/10th of the season.

At least wait till a quarter of the season is over with.

BlueNGold
11-16-2010, 09:22 PM
8 games. 1/10th of the season.

At least wait till a quarter of the season is over with.

Gladly.

We are now at 11% and it's just getting better...against a team that has averaged more boards than their opponents this year. A team we are currently dominating on the boards, 40-27. I would not be shocked to see us an average rebounding team if Foster ever comes back to life.

Hicks
11-17-2010, 12:18 PM
BNG, where do you pull your tream rebounding stats from? Which site? Thanks.

BlueNGold
11-17-2010, 09:57 PM
BNG, where do you pull your tream rebounding stats from? Which site? Thanks.

Interesting question. I am now going to compare to other sites. I was using Yahoo Sports.

Edit: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/byteam?&cat1=Total&cat2=diff&conference=NBA&year=season_2010&sort=233

Could this really be true? The Pacers are outrebounding their opponents so far this year. Positive 1.3.

These are updated stats on Yahoo Sports.

...and basketball reference matches! 381 Pacers. 369 Opponents ...in 9 games.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/IND/2011.html

Of course, as Flox will tell you...it's early. Still, it's amazing that we lost our best rebounder and automagically appear to be rebounding better...

BlueNGold
11-18-2010, 09:23 PM
.bump

Another night beating an opponent on the boards. I'm sure the tide is going to turn a little against the top teams, but this if fun to watch. BTW, Tyler looks like he could take down Blake Griffin. Not saying he's better at basketball...but Psycho T could take him on the mat.

cordobes
11-19-2010, 08:37 PM
Regardless of the site you use, you should really use rebounding rate numbers, not total rebounds.

The Pacers didn't outrebound the Clippers yesterday.

Los Angeles rebounded 24% of their own misses, Indiana only 17% of their misses. Los Angeles rebounded 83% on their own board, Indiana just 76%.

What the Pacers did better than the Clippers was defending/attacking. They hit more shots. There were 54 rebounds on the Pacers end vs. 35 on the Clippers goal. As it's a lot easier to get def. rebounds, of course the Pacers would end up with more rebounds. But merely because the Clippers missed so many shots, not because they rebounded the ball better.

Raw rebounding totals measure lots of different stuff: pace, missed shots and rebounds.

Here's an interesting article published recently in the NYT:

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/11/keeping-score-viewing-the-n-b-a-through-a-statistical-lens/


Total Rebound Percentage is an estimate of the percentage of available rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor. It is an improvement over rebounds per game because it takes into account opportunities, which are influenced by the pace that a team plays and the number of missed shots that a team forces.

It goes on about other possession based metrics.

BlueNGold
11-19-2010, 09:27 PM
Well, if we want to get technical...

Rebound rates are misleading, particularly in a blow-out. It's natural that a team fighting a deficit will fight much harder for whatever rebounds are available. Also, a team up by 20...that has racked up a large number of defensive boards from the opponent missing...simply doesn't value possessions as much. They figure they have the game well in hand. This happens at all levels of sport. They simply have less incentive to crash the boards.

Other times, better rebounders (Tyler) may sit while a three point shooter (Posey) may get his minutes. What does that tell us about rebound numbers or rates?

...so, it's all very complicated.

As for the genesis of this discussion, it is captured in the first sentence of the first post:

"After trading Troy Murphy, most of us rejoiced and celebrated Troy's departure. However, it is now clear that with Troy leaving, we have a huge weakness that has not been adressed. Rebounding..."

Huge weakness? I don't know Cordobes. What I see happening on the floor is not a huge weakness. Not in any of these games.

As for Troy, one could argue that he racked up boards during the first three quarters when teams were running (and playing around) with the Pacers...while he was far less able to grab contended boards in the 4th quarter.

So...a better measure might be contended boards rather than rate.

cordobes
11-19-2010, 09:33 PM
If you want to measure rebounding properly, you should use rebounding rates.

If you don't care about measuring rebounding because there are blowouts, some rebounds are more contested than others and sometimes coaches don't play better rebounders (in all honesty, very odd reasons... coaches don't always play their best shooters or defenders; some shots are contested, others aren't; are we going to stop measuring shooting efficiency also?.... don't measure it.

BlueNGold
11-19-2010, 09:47 PM
I think the root of this discussion is how well the team defends and rebounds in the front court. Considering defense has such a huge impact on the number of defensive boards made available, you can hardly separate the two.

Really, this is a lesson on why many types of stats have little to no meaning...and explains a bit about how a double double machine paid 8 digits a year is now found sitting on the bench.

BlueNGold
11-20-2010, 09:45 PM
Um...let's talk rebound rate....or rebounds for that matter.

The Magic have the best rebound differential in the league and we beat them handily on both rebounds and rebound rate:

51 to 42 TRB

We pulled down 30% of our misses and 87% of Orlando's misses.

They pulled down only 13% of their misses and only 70% of our misses.

This is the best rebounding team in the NBA in terms of rebounding differential...that we just beat on the boards...using either stat.

I believe Troy is inactive tonight. Meanwhile Jersey is beating Denver on the boards.

Justin Tyme
12-21-2010, 10:22 AM
I'm frustrated with the Pacers lack of rebounding, so I decided to bump this thread.

The Pacers last night got out rebounded by the Hornets 53-39 while giving up "18" offensive rebounds. This is absolutely positively atrocious. The Pacers are darn lucky to have been able to win this game. The biggest weakness of this team is a lack of a quality starting PF that can rebound and play "D" inside and outside all while being able to bring a scoring presence in the paint. I'm tired of Jimmy's "stretch 4's". I want a PF that can get rebs for extra posessions to score. I want a PF that will stop other teams from getting double digit offensive rebounds. If I never saw another Pacer PF shoot a 3, It wouldn't hurt my feelings.

Unfortunately, I feel I'm whistling in the wind with my request, b/c I truly don't feel there will be a trade b4 the lockout. IOW, I see the status quo continuing the rest of the season unless this team losses start to make the chances the Pacers won't make the playoffs with the players they have. Then it may be too late.

vnzla81
12-21-2010, 10:30 AM
Posey was making the three I think is too much to ask him to get a rebound, not just that but he was playing with DC and TJ for few minutes affecting his low % rebounding even more.

Hans didn't look good and Jeff did a decent job in rebounding the ball, also Roy looked like crap and Solo was Solo.

Pacerized
12-21-2010, 10:36 AM
I'm frustrated with the Pacers lack of rebounding, so I decided to bump this thread.

The Pacers last night got out rebounded by the Hornets 53-39 while giving up "18" offensive rebounds. This is absolutely positively atrocious. The Pacers are darn lucky to have been able to win this game. The biggest weakness of this team is a lack of a quality starting PF that can rebound and play "D" inside and outside all while being able to bring a scoring presence in the paint. I'm tired of Jimmy's "stretch 4's". I want a PF that can get rebs for extra posessions to score. I want a PF that will stop other teams from getting double digit offensive rebounds. If I never saw another Pacer PF shoot a 3, It wouldn't hurt my feelings.

Unfortunately, I feel I'm whistling in the wind with my request, b/c I truly don't feel there will be a trade b4 the lockout. IOW, I see the status quo continuing the rest of the season unless this team losses start to make the chances the Pacers won't make the playoffs with the players they have. Then it may be too late.


I'd also like to see a trade before the deadline that would bring in another starting big man and I don't care if it's another starting quality 4 or 5. I think the odds are still in our favor of that happening. We need our pf/c rotation to play like big men not wing players.
If a trade doesn't happen I still think we have the personal to do this, I just don't have any confidence that JOB will play that rotation. Roy isn't going to average 3 boards, and the combination of Roy, Tyler, Jeff, and Josh could get it done in the paint. Our wing players are big enough to rebound at an above average rate. It all comes down to how JOB want to play.

BringJackBack
12-21-2010, 10:38 AM
It was out wings and center not rebounding the ball last night, not our power forward. Danny doesn't box out, Mike just didn't get any boards despite being a good rebounder, ditto for Rush. Hibbert had a terrible rebounding night, but Emeka wouldn't let him get any.

Something I noticed, even though I knew that Posey was a very good defensive rebounding 3, I didn't know that he was such a good defensive rebounder as a four. Imagine if Solo had Posey's hands for rebounding.

Pacergeek
12-21-2010, 12:45 PM
Roy. He's been a good rebounder and now will need to take on the full responsibilty and pull down all or most of the team's rebounds.

Roy only had 3 rebounds last night in 25 minutes. Pathetic.

cdash
12-21-2010, 01:11 PM
Roy only had 3 rebounds last night in 25 minutes. Pathetic.

He has been playing certifiably awful lately. Not sure what the deal is there. He is a vital part of our success, and we won't win a whole lot of games with him playing this poorly.

Justin Tyme
12-21-2010, 02:02 PM
He has been playing certifiably awful lately. Not sure what the deal is there. He is a vital part of our success, and we won't win a whole lot of games with him playing this poorly.



Couldn't agree more. I saw more energy out of him rolling on the floor with Dun and Granger than a good part of the time he was playing. It's like he's forgot what he was doing earlier in the year. He's not sure what to do or when to do it.

If this team doesn't get it figured out soon, they are going to dig a hole they can't get out of. If Dunleavy hadn't tipped in the ball for the win, this team would be 12-15 with having some good teams to play on the horizon. Something just isn't right with some players. Players should be progressing not regressing.

cordobes
12-21-2010, 04:30 PM
As a side note, an interesting (and positive) article about rebounding metrics:

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=602



Rebound margin is dead? That was fast.

by John Gasaway
Basketball Prospectus

One year ago this week I penned a piece under the winningly accommodating let’s-all-be-friends headline “Rebound Margin Must Die.” The inciting incident behind my urgent call to arms was a major-conference head coach crowing on Twitter that his team was ranked in the top 30 or 40 or something nationally in rebound margin.

I had no contact with that coach, I simply retreated to my lair and wrote RMMD. Nevertheless, within 40 minutes of hitting “post” I had a DM in my Twitter inbox from that very same head coach:

Good read regarding rebounding margin. You bring up some interesting points, and agree with several, though not all.

And I knew then that the forces of light and reason had triumphed over darkness and “plus-12 advantage in rebounds.”

To paraphrase Sir Christopher Wren’s epitaph, reader if you seek rebound margin’s demise look around you. Look at the use of rebound percentages on the major-conferences’ official stat pages in 2010. Look at the national writers not using rebound margin. Best of all type ”rebound margin” into Google and see what happens. Just one year after RMMD, I am declaring victory and leaving the field.

Yes, rebound margin continues to pop up here and there. It too is tracked on those official stat pages. Occasionally a national writer on a tight deadline will slip up and make a desperate grab for the familiar old fossil. Heck, the NCAA even gives out a plaque to the team that records the best rebound margin.

So be it. I’m not here to enforce speech codes and prohibitions. I have sought only the effective demise of rebound margin in the eyes of serious people who want to do right by reality. That demise has come, and much sooner than I thought it would.

Email: johngasaway@basketballprospectus.com; Twitter: @JohnGasaway


The original article mentioned (where he actually makes the case for the total demise of rebound margin):

“Rebound Margin Must Die.” (http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=829)

BlueNGold
12-21-2010, 10:16 PM
Nice article debunking another stat. I find it humorous that he blisters a terrible stat and raises up another bad one as the holy grail. Maybe not the holy grail, but still.

I think I will work on a new article. "Stats Must Die".

Naptown_Seth
12-22-2010, 12:06 AM
If you want to measure rebounding properly, you should use rebounding rates.

If you don't care about measuring rebounding because there are blowouts, some rebounds are more contested than others and sometimes coaches don't play better rebounders (in all honesty, very odd reasons... coaches don't always play their best shooters or defenders; some shots are contested, others aren't; are we going to stop measuring shooting efficiency also?.... don't measure it.
I'm 100% with Cordobes on this one BnG, but then I think you'll find the RRate is better this year than last.

The Pacers offensive rebounding PCT this year is 22.1% (28th) and def PCT is 74.5% (13th)

Last year it was off reb - 21.6% (29th) def reb - 73% (22nd)


So they are slightly better in both areas. At the very least it makes a proper mockery out of the idea that losing Troy would dramatically reduce rebounding, and it also makes the point that many of us complained about for years - Troy specialized in empty rebounding numbers, the kind that anyone else could easily get instead.


Of course it also continues the JOB trend of having horrible offensive rebounding teams due to the focus on chucking the 3 ball. We had a thread about this before JOB coached a single game (OFF REB) and it's proven to be extremely true.

cdash
12-22-2010, 02:51 AM
I'll be honest: I thought Troy's absence would hurt us on the boards a lot more than it has. I thought his three point shooting would be missed too. Uhhh...I don't miss that gentleman at all. I'm willing to admit defeat on that one.

BlueNGold
12-22-2010, 10:40 PM
I'm 100% with Cordobes on this one BnG, but then I think you'll find the RRate is better this year than last.

The Pacers offensive rebounding PCT this year is 22.1% (28th) and def PCT is 74.5% (13th)

Last year it was off reb - 21.6% (29th) def reb - 73% (22nd)


So they are slightly better in both areas. At the very least it makes a proper mockery out of the idea that losing Troy would dramatically reduce rebounding, and it also makes the point that many of us complained about for years - Troy specialized in empty rebounding numbers, the kind that anyone else could easily get instead.


Of course it also continues the JOB trend of having horrible offensive rebounding teams due to the focus on chucking the 3 ball. We had a thread about this before JOB coached a single game (OFF REB) and it's proven to be extremely true.

I concede that rebounding rate is a better stat than rebounding differential, but I do think we all need to realize that we are comparing a D to a D- in terms of the value of information.

Let's say we have a great offensive rebounding team. Let's say they grab 4 of every 10 available rebounds for a 40% offensive rebound percentage. Tell me how valuable this is after considering the following:

We play a big line-up with great rebounders to attain this advantage only to sacrifice the game by giving up 30 turnovers? Our great offensive rebounders are terrible at perimeter defense so they gave up 50% for three for the game. They also have difficulty stopping drives to the bucket so they foul frequently.

Let me take this a step further...more directly attacking the value of the stat itself. What about this?

They also go over the back and hack on the offensive end attempting to dominate on the boards. IOW, to get the boards themselves they are directly paying a price. But it can be much worse and I'm only scratching the surface of complexity.

Say they all went to the Jeff Foster Academy and can't hit a layup so they keep missing bunnies, rebounding their own shots and tipping to their team mates who do the same thing...ultimately turning it over after a virtual volley ball match. Do you count those extra bonus rebounds on a single possession as being that valuable?

What about pace? Doesn't it affect the rebound rate too? As an extreme example, what if there are only three available rebounds? So you see that pace also affects rebound rate.

What if the opposing team is draining every shot they make because your defense is terrible...so they don't fight as hard for rebounds? In fact, every team knows they can score at will on you so they allow you to rack up big offensive boards the first 3 quarters only to protect the paint with a vengeance in the 4th? The Knicks of the 90's barely worked up a sweat the first 3 quarters. Imagine how teams would fair on the offensive boards if they actually tried the entire game.

Again, these are just a few examples. An entire article could be written on this...;)

BlueNGold
12-22-2010, 11:23 PM
I'll be honest: I thought Troy's absence would hurt us on the boards a lot more than it has. I thought his three point shooting would be missed too. Uhhh...I don't miss that gentleman at all. I'm willing to admit defeat on that one.

I like this man's honesty.

BTW, I thought Ike Diogu was going to be a beast...:blush:

cdash
12-23-2010, 05:19 AM
I like this man's honesty.

BTW, I thought Ike Diogu was going to be a beast...:blush:

Yeah, while I'm calling myself out, I totally bought into Ike Diogu being the key to that Golden State deal. Yep, I'm a moron :laugh:

pacer4ever
12-23-2010, 01:50 PM
Yeah, while I'm calling myself out, I totally bought into Ike Diogu being the key to that Golden State deal. Yep, I'm a moron :laugh:

He played Great last night in his debut for the clippers

cdash
12-23-2010, 07:59 PM
He played Great last night in his debut for the clippers

Doesn't change anything.

BlueNGold
12-23-2010, 08:41 PM
Doesn't change anything.

Sadly, I agree. He had a great game against Detroit several years ago. The problem with Ike is between his ears.

Granite comes to mind.