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10-10-2010, 09:57 AM
Mike will probably get the starting SG spot for the first few weeks into the season.

What about the backup SG spot.

Brandon and Dahntay are both really good 1-on-1 defenders.

Dahntay can score more though, but Brandon can shoot and get it in once in a while. :p

lil lebowsky
10-10-2010, 10:13 AM
That's a good question. I was more impressed with Dahntay's minutes last year than Brandon Rush's. It appeared as if Dahntay played harder, however sometimes i think that he forced too many shots. Brandon plays a much more controlled game offensively, and it's about a wash defensively. I think that Dahntay is a better ball handler and better at getting to the rim and drawing fouls. Rush is clearly the better shooter.

I think the fact that Rush is durable and can shoot for a good percentage from deep will allow him to get more minutes at the 2. I personally like Dahntay's game better, but I still feel that he will be dealt sometime this year.

I'm really not in love with either player, the both have their shortcomings. Rush only shot about 64% last year from the free throw line, plus he doesn't draw fouls that much at all. He seems to just go thru the motions out there, and on most teams he would be on the bench. Jones appears to play hard on both sides of the ball, however his shot is awful. I've seen him throw up a lot of bricks, and sometimes he can hurt the team by taking those bad shots. So either way having 2 average shooting guards on a team loaded with wing players appears to be too many for me. I assume one will be dealt this year, especially since it appears our front court will need some help on the boards.

Oh and btw, I think that Paul George was a fine pick, and i really think in the next couple of seasons he will become the starer, and he will be the starter for many years to come. Go Pacers!

Trader Joe
10-10-2010, 10:15 AM
Rush, Rush, Rush, 1,000 times Rush.

DJones has a horrible basketball IQ, and has a serious case of black hole syndrome. I hate watching him.

BRushWithDeath
10-10-2010, 10:19 AM
I'm not going to answer this poll because neither one of them should get the backup role.

Rush should be the starter with Paul George backing him up.

Dahntay shouldn't ever play.

BringJackBack
10-10-2010, 10:26 AM
Well it seems like Brandon is on his way out due to his personal problems so I'd play him at the backup to prove that he is still a good defender.

Basically to showcase him.

xtacy
10-10-2010, 10:34 AM
i chose rush just because there isn't a neither option.

Mackey_Rose
10-10-2010, 10:51 AM
This shouldn't even be up for debate. DJ is incredibly overrated as a defender and is a poor offensive player. Rush is an incredibly underrated defender and is in no way a worse offensive player than Jones.

vnzla81
10-10-2010, 10:56 AM
I am not choosing anybody either I want Rush to be the starter with PG as the back up, Dunleavy and DJ shouldn't even be playing significant minutes.

Hibbert
10-10-2010, 12:29 PM
What does anybody see in Rush? What has he done here? He will continue to be just awful. I would rather see AJ Price at the 2. Due to his size, I dont think we will ever get to see that. I always hear everyone saying how good Rush is on defense. Rush played more minutes than anyone else on the team did last year yet only managed 56 steals. How is that good defense? Mike played exactly 1005 minutes less than Brandon and finished with 38 steals. Also Rush in that time had 112 assists, Mike with 103 and Rush with 774 points, Mike 666. I dont like any of our options at the two and I only like Dun coming off the bench. Lance would be my choice. I would like to see what he is capable of doing starting, tired of seeing Mike and Brandon not getting the job done.

ThA HoyA
10-10-2010, 12:30 PM
Well it seems like Brandon is on his way out due to his personal problems so I'd play him at the backup to prove that he is still a good defender.

Basically to showcase him.

What do you mean on his way out??

I'd still start rush because he is willing to take a backseat to the other options on the floor. However he can still contribute without scoring, rebounding, blocking shots, and good 1-1 defense. If mike starts he is going to be the 4th option. If mike isn't scoring his contributions don't outway rush's. Bring him off the bench to give that second unit more scoring but better yet a veteran presence on the floor.

ThA HoyA
10-10-2010, 12:31 PM
What does anybody see in Rush? What has he done here? He will continue to be just awful. I would rather see AJ Price at the 2. Due to his size, I dont think we will ever get to see that. I always hear everyone saying how good Rush is on defense. Rush played more minutes than anyone else on the team did last year yet only managed 56 steals. How is that good defense? Mike played exactly 1005 minutes less than Brandon and finished with 38 steals. Also Rush in that time had 112 assists, Mike with 103 and Rush with 774 points, Mike 666. I dont like any of our options at the two and I only like Dun coming off the bench. Lance would be my choice. I would like to see what he is capable of doing starting, tired of seeing Mike and Brandon not getting the job done.

If we go off of "steals" then iverson was one of the best defenders of all time.

Hibbert
10-10-2010, 12:40 PM
If we go off of "steals" then iverson was one of the best defenders of all time.

Allen Iverson in his prime was a very good defender. He led the league in steals three straight seasons. Man to man he was not a great defender but he gambled and played the passing lanes very well.

xBulletproof
10-10-2010, 12:42 PM
What does anybody see in Rush?

Too many people think offense is the only way to judge a player. PPG the only way to gauge success. This article covers what I'm able to see with my eyes watching the games. If you're not watching the games or have much of an understanding of defense you'll miss this.

http://alwaysmillertime.com/2010/07/08/i-owe-brandon-rush-an-apology/

Hicks
10-10-2010, 12:52 PM
The only thing D. Jones has on Rush is a willingness to attack the basket. Otherwise, it's all Rush, AFAIC.

vnzla81
10-10-2010, 01:02 PM
Here is a nice way to describe what Rush brings to the team that no many people see.



In this admittedly small sample size, Rush’s numbers compare quite favorably. His TO% is low in almost every category but his Points per Possession numbers and FG% allowed are quite impressive. In fact he was tied with Dwyane Wade for the second best overall Points Per Possession allowed. Another surprise was Ron Artest. For all the talk about him losing a step, it’s clear from these numbers that Ron Artest continues to be among the best, if not the best, perimeter defender in the game.

While these numbers don’t directly correlate to Rush’s effect on the team defense, they speak volumes about the type of potential he has at this end of the floor. There has been a lot of talk about his lack of confidence and aggressiveness effecting his offensive game, but I would argue that improvement in those two mental aspects could transform him into a legitimate defensive force. Either way, he appears to be a much better defensive player than I gave him credit for.

Brandon, I am sorry I doubted you. Keep up the terrific work at the defensive end!

vnzla81
10-10-2010, 01:07 PM
I am pretty sure that if he had a player like Bruce Bowen that only average 6 points per game(career) many people here would be asking for his head and still take Dunleavy over him :rolleyes: , I don't know if people understand that there is more to basketball than offense.

Lance George
10-10-2010, 01:12 PM
Cleary the way back to prosperity for the Pacers is by continuing to start a poor mans Quinton Ross. I wouldn't invest any more time or effort into Brandon Rush seeing as how he's not only an unproductive player, but also a substance abuser. I'd try to move him for a 2nd and give all the back-up SG minutes to George and Stephenson, with MDJ as the obvious starter.

Hicks
10-10-2010, 01:15 PM
Cleary the way back to prosperity for the Pacers is by continuing to start a poor mans Quinton Ross. I wouldn't invest any more time or effort into Brandon Rush seeing as how he's not only an unproductive player,

http://alwaysmillertime.com/2010/07/08/i-owe-brandon-rush-an-apology/

xBulletproof
10-10-2010, 01:16 PM
Cleary the way back to prosperity for the Pacers is by continuing to start a poor mans Quinton Ross. I wouldn't invest any more time or effort into Brandon Rush seeing as how he's not only an unproductive player, but also a substance abuser. I'd try to move him for a 2nd and give all the back-up SG minutes to George and Stephenson, with MDJ as the obvious starter.

Wow, I love how you use Rush's drug problem as reasoning to yank his minutes. Yet giving them to Stephenson, who's accused in a court of law of pushing a woman down stairs.

Talk about hypocrisy.

Sookie
10-10-2010, 01:30 PM
Rush. It's a really easy decision too.

Although, I'd consider starting Rush and taking Dun off the bench for some more offensive power off the bench.

MLB007
10-10-2010, 01:44 PM
Yes, the way to judge a young player is by LAST year. (rolls eyes)

I have been as impressed by Brandon in the limited video practice highlights as anyone that isn't Roy Hibbert.
He has looked aggressive on offense and very active and tough on defense.
I doubt they WANT to dump him, and I don't think the public reaction will be enough to make them dump him.
I think this has all been a slap in the face with a cold fish for this kid.
Unless he's hopeless (and I've never gotten the impression this is a stupid guy) he realizes he put 10's of millions of dollars in earnings at stake for puffing up with his buddies.
The average NBA career is 4.7 years.
There will be 50 years POST nba to burn whatever you want (and afford the best of the best) if you can keep your nose clean for a few years now.

I expect him to be a very big beneficiary of our new more balanced lineup and playing with DC.
I see growth in the kids game and I think he might be one of the most improved players this year. (along with Roy)

MLB007
10-10-2010, 01:46 PM
Wow, I love how you use Rush's drug problem as reasoning to yank his minutes. Yet giving them to Stephenson, who's accused in a court of law of pushing a woman down stairs.

Talk about hypocrisy.

welllllll, what's the problem? Don't you know that Stephenson has mad skillz and that overrides anything he did? :rolleyes: ;)

vnzla81
10-10-2010, 01:53 PM
Again why the question is back up role? what has Dunleavy done to get the starting job?

Hibbert
10-10-2010, 02:03 PM
Too many people think offense is the only way to judge a player. PPG the only way to gauge success. This article covers what I'm able to see with my eyes watching the games. If you're not watching the games or have much of an understanding of defense you'll miss this.

http://alwaysmillertime.com/2010/07/08/i-owe-brandon-rush-an-apology/

Who said anything about offense? I clearly stated defense. Here is what John Hollinger states on Brandon Rush's espn player profile page. Interesting. You can see this if you have espn insider. http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/players/hollinger?playerId=3457

For those that can't view it here it is:
+ Solid wing defender with good athleticism. Will block shots. Intensity an issue.

+ Has solid, high-arcing lefty jumper and can finish in transition.

+ Oddly passive on offensive. Has few ball skills and never draws fouls.

As I pointed out at the end of last season, Rush may be the worst player ever to lead his team in minutes, posting a sub-10 PER for a second straight season. At times you wondered whether he was so invisible that the coaches forgot to take him out.

There's some talent hiding, however. Rush nailed 41.1 percent of his 3s, is a solid defender who was third at his position in blocks per minute and possesses NBA athleticism. Alas, his in-game Houdini acts are legendary. Only four shooting guards had a lower usage rate, and only three drew fouls less often. Rush has the ability to be a very solid player, but he's 25 and he still isn't any good. His offseason may offer a hint as to why -- Rush will open the season with a five-game suspension for a violation of the league's substance-abuse policy.

Hibbert
10-10-2010, 02:09 PM
Yes, the way to judge a young player is by LAST year. (rolls eyes)

I have been as impressed by Brandon in the limited video practice highlights as anyone that isn't Roy Hibbert.
He has looked aggressive on offense and very active and tough on defense.
I doubt they WANT to dump him, and I don't think the public reaction will be enough to make them dump him.
I think this has all been a slap in the face with a cold fish for this kid.
Unless he's hopeless (and I've never gotten the impression this is a stupid guy) he realizes he put 10's of millions of dollars in earnings at stake for puffing up with his buddies.
The average NBA career is 4.7 years.
There will be 50 years POST nba to burn whatever you want (and afford the best of the best) if you can keep your nose clean for a few years now.

I expect him to be a very big beneficiary of our new more balanced lineup and playing with DC.
I see growth in the kids game and I think he might be one of the most improved players this year. (along with Roy)

What did Brandon do the year before last year? What happened this offseason? Clearly his mind is not on basketball as has shown on the court. Three failed drug tests. Three not one. He has not grown up, he is 25 already, Lance is only 20. What's your point? They both have something to prove but we have been waiting on Brandon for three years now.

xBulletproof
10-10-2010, 02:11 PM
So you act like you aren't judging this based on offense, and then you quote Hollinger? Baffling.

I said offense because you can't knock Rush on defense. The only issue you can have with the kid on the court is his lack aggressiveness on the offensive end of the court.

ThA HoyA
10-10-2010, 02:12 PM
Allen Iverson in his prime was a very good defender. He led the league in steals three straight seasons. Man to man he was not a great defender but he gambled and played the passing lanes very well.

Seriously so he gambled to get his couple steals a game... What happened the other times when he missed on his gamble.. Getting steals isn't good defense, staying in front of your man, denying the ball, and having a hand in the face of the shooter is good defense.

flox
10-10-2010, 02:13 PM
Neither should be on the team.

BlueNGold
10-10-2010, 02:19 PM
DJones should not be playing. That much is easy.

Now, for some painful truth about Brandon Rush. Rush is NEVER going to be a productive starting SG in the NBA. Also, he is not the guy you need to shoot daggers ala Reggie Miller. It just isn't going to happen. He may shoot for a decent percentage, but his forte will be defense...so he should come off the bench and be used to slow down scoring wings. That is the extent of what I expect from Rush and the extent the Pacers should try to use him.

Instead, it is time to start grooming George for the position. Allow Dunleavy to start until George shows he can own the position. Have Rush be 3rd string off the bench or when an athletic defender is absolutely needed.

BlueNGold
10-10-2010, 02:21 PM
Neither should be on the team.

Brother, I actually agree with you on this. It has to be correct...;)

vnzla81
10-10-2010, 02:30 PM
DJones should not be playing. That much is easy.

Now, for some painful truth about Brandon Rush. Rush is NEVER going to be a productive starting SG in the NBA. Also, he is not the guy you need to shoot daggers ala Reggie Miller. It just isn't going to happen. He may shoot for a decent percentage, but his forte will be defense...so he should come off the bench and be used to slow down scoring wings. That is the extent of what I expect from Rush and the extent the Pacers should try to use him.

Instead, it is time to start grooming George for the position. Allow Dunleavy to start until George shows he can own the position. Have Rush be 3rd string off the bench or when an athletic defender is absolutely needed.

Is this a basketball decision or is your choice because Rush got suspended? sometimes I think people want to play the choir boy in Dunleavy because he is a nicer guy and does not get in trouble even though he is not that good anymore.

TooBigNdaPaint
10-10-2010, 02:38 PM
DJones should not be playing. That much is easy.

Now, for some painful truth about Brandon Rush. Rush is NEVER going to be a productive starting SG in the NBA. Also, he is not the guy you need to shoot daggers ala Reggie Miller. It just isn't going to happen. He may shoot for a decent percentage, but his forte will be defense...so he should come off the bench and be used to slow down scoring wings. That is the extent of what I expect from Rush and the extent the Pacers should try to use him.

Instead, it is time to start grooming George for the position. Allow Dunleavy to start until George shows he can own the position. Have Rush be 3rd string off the bench or when an athletic defender is absolutely needed.

I agree with you 100%.

Brandon is athletic enough to guard other athletic wings in the NBA. He should focus on defense and look to score off of steals and deflections where he uses his speed to get out on the break. He can also shoot it when his confidence is up or the team is doing well and he's in the flow of the game.

Dahntay just doesn't have ANY offense and he's not even that great of a defensive player. I never understood WHY LB even signed him (although it was said for his defense). I mean, Denver, didn't want him back and it's obvious WHY they didn't want him. He can't shoot it when open and he can't finish at the rim on a consistent basis (if he even get's there).

George needs alot of work. His shooting touch is 'lost in action' right now. He doesn't understand how to score against NBA defenses and, on offense, I'm not certain his best position is at SG. I'd like to see him at SG but he's needs to find other ways to score if his shot isn't falling. With his length and size, he should be able to get inside and 'pass' the rock after drawing the defender. Eventually, he'll be able to score with a variety of bank shots, tear drops, and fade-away jumpers. Unfortunately, he's one or two years away from developing this scoring skill level. He's still 'stuck' in college mode and/or he's not understanding JOB's offense. He's needs to to quit 'thinking' so much and just play the game that comes natural to him.

BringJackBack
10-10-2010, 02:38 PM
Is this a basketball decision or is your choice because Rush got suspended? sometimes I think people want to play the choir boy in Dunleavy because he is a nicer guy and does not get in trouble even though he is not that good anymore.

I think most people choose Dunleavy to start over Rush not only because he's the choir boy, but he's also better than Rush.

He's more efficient, better passing, better and more willing shooter, better team defender, gets to the line, and is a smarter player.

Rush only has set shot threes and man to man defense.

sportfireman
10-10-2010, 02:41 PM
If we go off of "steals" then iverson was one of the best defenders of all time.

Steals don't make you a good defender. Staying in front of your man, contesting the shot, deflections...... those are things that put fear and doubt in an opponet head.... IMO

BringJackBack
10-10-2010, 02:45 PM
George needs alot of work. His shooting touch is 'lost in action' right now. He doesn't understand how to score against NBA defenses and, on offense, I'm not certain his best position is at SG. I'd like to see him at SG but he's needs to find other ways to score if his shot isn't falling. With his length and size, he should be able to get inside and 'pass' the rock after drawing the defender. Eventually, he'll be able to score with a variety of bank shots, tear drops, and fade-away jumpers.

Unfortunately, he's one or two years away from developing this scoring skill level. He's still 'stuck' in college mode and/or he's not understanding JOB's offense. He's needs to to quit 'thinking' so much and just play the game that comes natural to him.

He's being a young rookie.

He's going to learn how to get spacing for his shot, he's going to know where his shots are going to come from, he's going to know when to attack, and his jumper is going to be better year after year.

Everyone will be suprised how much he will improve from year 1 to 2 to 3.

vnzla81
10-10-2010, 02:46 PM
I think most people choose Dunleavy to start over Rush not only because he's the choir boy, but he's also better than Rush.

He's more efficient, better passing, better and more willing shooter, better team defender, gets to the line, and is a smarter player.

Rush only has set shot threes and man to man defense.

Better defender? :eek: :laugh::laugh:

Dunleavy was all that you are talking about, he is not that anymore, I guess you haven't seen him playing in the last two years.

I also know that the preseason is the preseason but Dunleavy is looking horrible, he is slow on defense and his guys scores at will even if that guy is the 12th man on the other teams roster, Vince Carter was abusing him in all the possible ways.

Justin Tyme
10-10-2010, 02:52 PM
+ Has solid, high-arcing lefty jumper



LEFTY jumper??

BringJackBack
10-10-2010, 02:52 PM
Better defender? :eek: :laugh::laugh:

.

I like the way you twist things and leave out the most important words.

Here is what I actually said:

Better TEAM defender

Mike Dunleavy is a better team defender than Brandon Rush. Watch the Orlando game for proof. Then watch the Houston game to see how Brandon was absolutely no where to be found when Yao got the ball in the very low post.

And don't bring up that charge on Yao. That was off of his own careless turnnover that no one with any basketball IQ would do.


Dunleavy was all that you are talking about, he is not that anymore, I guess you haven't seen him playing in the last two years.

Considering that he was playing with absolutely no legs with zero confidence...


I also know that the preseason is the preseason but Dunleavy is looking horrible, he is slow on defense and his guys scores at will even if that guy is the 12th man on the other teams roster, Vince Carter was abusing him in all the possible ways.

And if he wouldn't have doubled Dwight DH would have been the one with 35 points. Vince had his first two points from a step back off Dunleavy. Anytime you get someone to do a step back not named Kobe Bryant you have probably done your job. Then Granger was on VC when he went under a screen and Vince splashed the three. George came in and didn't close out on Vince. By the time Mike came in Vince was already going off.

Pick your poison until Danny decides to play team defense as well. When you play Orlando you have to have people scrambling all over the place to get them to struggle. Ask Boston or Atlanta.

BringJackBack
10-10-2010, 02:54 PM
LEFTY jumper??

John Hollinger doesn't know the difference between Kareem and Brandon.

He got them mixed up. There's your baskeball guru for ya.

ThA HoyA
10-10-2010, 02:56 PM
Why would you bring the athletic good 1-1 defender off the bench to guard very good scoring guards?? Those scoring guards are in the starting lineup. Also rush is the 4th option... He's not a go to guy... Period. His role can't be any better suited especially now when the focus is on hibbert and the inside game. Inside out offense, pick and roll offense, rush being a spot up shooter is perfect. Especially when the team needs him to guard that player that will drop 30-40 points easily if dunleavy is guarding them. I would definitely like him to be more aggressive but he is realistically the 4th option.

ThA HoyA
10-10-2010, 02:58 PM
I like the way you twist things and leave out the most important words.

Here is what I actually said:

Better TEAM defender

Mike Dunleavy is a better team defender than Brandon Rush. Watch the Orlando game for proof. Then watch the Houston game to see how Brandon was absolutely no where to be found when Yao got the ball in the very low post.

And don't bring up that charge on Yao. That was off of his own careless turnnover that no one with any basketball IQ would do.

The Orlando game really?? You mean when Vince Carter had how Many points? If anything that proves that rush is a way more important piece than mike.

Justin Tyme
10-10-2010, 03:00 PM
Neither is the answer to this teams SG position. Then neither is Dunleavy. All 3 could be traded today, and I wouldn't be upset.

Hicks
10-10-2010, 03:03 PM
DJones should not be playing. That much is easy.

Now, for some painful truth about Brandon Rush. Rush is NEVER going to be a productive starting SG in the NBA. Also, he is not the guy you need to shoot daggers ala Reggie Miller. It just isn't going to happen. He may shoot for a decent percentage, but his forte will be defense...so he should come off the bench and be used to slow down scoring wings. That is the extent of what I expect from Rush and the extent the Pacers should try to use him.

Instead, it is time to start grooming George for the position. Allow Dunleavy to start until George shows he can own the position. Have Rush be 3rd string off the bench or when an athletic defender is absolutely needed.

Was Bruce Bowen a productive starting SF in the NBA?

BringJackBack
10-10-2010, 03:06 PM
The Orlando game really?? You mean when Vince Carter had how Many points? If anything that proves that rush is a way more important piece than mike.

I like the way you twist things and leave out the most important words.

Here is what I actually said:

Better TEAM defender

Mike Dunleavy is a better team defender than Brandon Rush. Watch the Orlando game for proof. Then watch the Houston game to see how Brandon was absolutely no where to be found when Yao got the ball in the very low post.

And don't bring up that charge on Yao. That was off of his own careless turnnover that no one with any basketball IQ would do.


Quote:
Dunleavy was all that you are talking about, he is not that anymore, I guess you haven't seen him playing in the last two years.

Considering that he was playing with absolutely no legs with zero confidence...


Quote:
I also know that the preseason is the preseason but Dunleavy is looking horrible, he is slow on defense and his guys scores at will even if that guy is the 12th man on the other teams roster, Vince Carter was abusing him in all the possible ways.

And if he wouldn't have doubled Dwight DH would have been the one with 35 points. Vince had his first two points from a step back off Dunleavy. Anytime you get someone to do a step back not named Kobe Bryant you have probably done your job. Then Granger was on VC when he went under a screen and Vince splashed the three. George came in and didn't close out on Vince. By the time Mike came in Vince was already going off.

Pick your poison until Danny decides to play team defense as well. When you play Orlando you have to have people scrambling all over the place to get them to struggle. Ask Boston or Atlanta.

Mike also was one of the main causes for Dwight going 2 for 8. Leave that out too buddy. I never gave props to Mikes man to man defense.

Use your common sense. Mike is better than Brandon. Brandon has never averaged double figures on 30 win teams with 30 minutes per game has a 1:1 assist to turnover ratio. His man to man is great, but with no team defense and no offense what does that give you?

4 vs. 5

BlueNGold
10-10-2010, 03:13 PM
Was Bruce Bowen a productive starting SF in the NBA?

Personally, I think Bowen was a better defender than Rush...but that's not why he was better. Bowen savored the clutch shot. Rush is the antithesis of a Reggie Miller type player. Rush hits for a good percentage but I don't think he wants the ball when the game is on the line. Call it the mental aspect of the game. Rush has everything physical but lacks a lot mentally. Bowen did not.

TooBigNdaPaint
10-10-2010, 03:15 PM
Thank God that we've NOT as bad as the score indicated vs Houston. Houston played excellent team defense (as they must play in the Western Conference to compete against the Lakers, Jazz, San Antonio, etc. etc. . Even Orlando talked about taking 'controlling' of the game with their defense. You could SEE that they turned it UP a notch in the 2nd half and took control of the game with their defense. Cleveland (last year with Lebron), Miami, Atlanta, all play the same way. They seem to go through the motions to FEEL you out and then turn UP the defense to take control of the game. As Dwight Howard said after the game, defense wins championships.

Well, it seems very obvious to me that the Pacers need to FOCUS on defense as well so we can win a few more games this year. We, at least, have the athletes to play defense although our FRONT LINE is not very physical and plays with a bit too much finesse. LB and Morway needs to find us a PHYSICAL starting PF and starting Center. Our back court and Wings are athletic enough and we should be okay but I'm tired of seeing our FRONT LINE (and Offense unit overall) get manhandled every night.

If JOB or our coaching staff can't TEACH defense to our guys, we need to find another coach and/or staff!!! We all saw HOW the Magic defended the PnR. When we set a PICK, they would jump very aggressively to STOP our guy with the ball and destroy the PnR. On the other hand, we didn't JUMP out aggressively and they were able to consistently EXECUTE the PnR all night long without much resistance from us. Also, Hibbert turned the WRONG way on the PnR when we executed it. Instead of turning toward the ball after he set the PICK, he turned the opposite direction because he knew in JOB's offense, the ball was going to be passed to a Wing on the baseline.

Wake up JOB and have the team FOCUS on DEFENSE first. We need to raise our defensive intensity and get turnovers from steals and deflections to start our offense. Until then, we'll continue to LOSE ugly.

kester99
10-10-2010, 03:17 PM
I've never thought Danny and Mike were a great combo on the floor. Granger gets most of the focus, and Dunleavy is relegated to a 3rd or 4th option. I'd rather see Dunleavy in the 2nd unit, like last night, as the 1st or 2nd scoring option.

Having said that, I'd have to go with Rush in the starting 5. It doesn't mean I think he's better than Mike. The 'starter' mystique gets in the way of a good platooning rotation sometimes, seems to me.

Dahntay's not in the hunt.

Hicks
10-10-2010, 03:17 PM
Personally, I think Bowen was a better defender than Rush...but that's not why he was better. Bowen savored the clutch shot. Rush is the antithesis of a Reggie Miller type player. Rush hits for a good percentage but I don't think he wants the ball when the game is on the line. Call it the mental aspect of the game. Rush has everything physical but lacks a lot mentally. Bowen did not.

I thought Brandon hit big shots for Kansas during their title run?

BlueNGold
10-10-2010, 03:18 PM
Is this a basketball decision or is your choice because Rush got suspended? sometimes I think people want to play the choir boy in Dunleavy because he is a nicer guy and does not get in trouble even though he is not that good anymore.

Hardly. I have simply given up on Rush for the starting SG position. Dunleavy is like an interim coach that I would like to see go away, so stop with the choir boy stuff. The fact Rush had issues with pot is not all that important to me. I simply think he lacks the mental part of the game. Reggie Miller certainly wasn't as athletic but was far and away a better player. There is value to the mental aspect of the game that many here seem to miss entirely with Brandon. He gets an F in that category IMHO.

speakout4
10-10-2010, 03:18 PM
What good are high percentage completions if you are reluctant to shoot? Not Dahntay or Brandon are the answer. Hopefully George!
Game on the line or pacers behind? Don't look to Brandon because he doesn't want the ball. Defend the guy who has the ball, yes.

BlueNGold
10-10-2010, 03:22 PM
I thought Brandon hit big shots for Kansas during their title run?

Ok, I am waiting. BTW, I am OK with giving him one more year, but so far he's not shown that he has "the right stuff". I never watched him at Kansas and from his scoring average he wasn't exactly aggressive. That was college anyway. Damon Bailey lit it up too.

flox
10-10-2010, 03:24 PM
Brother, I actually agree with you on this. It has to be correct...;)
The world is ending.

Well if you actually do agree with me on this that means that is something that has to be done about the Pacers. We don't see eye to eye on anything else it seems- but if we can agree on this it has to be right.


Was Bruce Bowen a productive starting SF in the NBA?
Bowen might be the best defender on the perimeter in the past decade. Rush, in my opinion, isn't even close.

speakout4
10-10-2010, 03:26 PM
Ok, I am waiting. BTW, I am OK with giving him one more year, but so far he's not shown that he has "the right stuff". I never watched him at Kansas and from his scoring average he wasn't exactly aggressive. That was college anyway. Damon Bailey lit it up too.
Trade him as a package before everyone else realizes he doesn't have the right stuff. Wait another year and his trade value will completely disappear.

Hicks
10-10-2010, 03:38 PM
I guess the other thing is, I don't recall these moments the past two years where I left thinking "Man, Rush really let us down in the clutch." There's that #33 who tends to get all the late game looks....

speakout4
10-10-2010, 03:46 PM
I guess the other thing is, I don't recall these moments the past two years where I left thinking "Man, Rush really let us down in the clutch." There's that #33 who tends to get all the late game looks....
Think about it. Granger gets all the touches because no one else wants the ball. How predictable is this team that #33 is really the only guy you have to defend late in the game? There is no other go-to-guy than Granger which has resulted in Granger becoming one dimensional.

vnzla81
10-10-2010, 03:48 PM
I guess the other thing is, I don't recall these moments the past two years where I left thinking "Man, Rush really let us down in the clutch." There's that #33 who tends to get all the late game looks....

Yeah I was thinking the same thing just a crazy argument I think.

speakout4
10-10-2010, 03:51 PM
Yeah I was thinking the same thing just a crazy argument I think.
There is letting the team down due to commission and then due to omission.

Hicks
10-10-2010, 04:02 PM
Think about it. Granger gets all the touches because no one else wants the ball. How predictable is this team that #33 is really the only guy you have to defend late in the game? There is no other go-to-guy than Granger which has resulted in Granger becoming one dimensional.

Did Reggie Miller, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant, etc. get all the touches because "no one else wants the ball?"

Sookie
10-10-2010, 04:28 PM
Think about it. Granger gets all the touches because no one else wants the ball. How predictable is this team that #33 is really the only guy you have to defend late in the game? There is no other go-to-guy than Granger which has resulted in Granger becoming one dimensional.

Granger gets late game touches because he's the best player on the team and should get those touches.

Regardless, I don't think Rush is a superstar. I think he's an excellent three point shooter and a very good defender. He's a spot up shooter. Unfortunatly, he's not like Dunleavy and doesn't move around to get a shot..he just stands there.

I think if Rush is on the court with aggressive starters, where he can just play defense and shoot when open. Then he'll be fine. I'd like him to learn a midrange game..or heck, just a head fake step in three pointer. But even still, he's a good complimentary player. Kobe Bryant and Lebron James would love to have him.

Lord Helmet
10-10-2010, 04:31 PM
Get rid of both of them. One's a stoner, who isn't that good, the other just can't really play that well, at least in O'Brien's system.

flox
10-10-2010, 04:39 PM
Did Reggie Miller, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant, etc. get all the touches because "no one else wants the ball?"

Maybe, but stephen graham has more game winners than rush.

speakout4
10-10-2010, 04:41 PM
Did Reggie Miller, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant, etc. get all the touches because "no one else wants the ball?"
You are correct but do you think that Larry, Michael, and Kobe did not use their supporting cast. I don't know if Granger is in their class but whether you want to argue that Granger is or isn't deserving of having the ball in his hands that much, consider that those guys were on teams that won and made the playoffs on a regular basis.

A one man team watching Granger is not a recipe for a successful team. Did Larry have McHale and a host of others? MJ had Scotty; Kobe had Shaq and Gasol; and Granger has Brandon?

speakout4
10-10-2010, 04:43 PM
Maybe, but stephen graham has more game winners than rush.
I am not surprised.

Natston
10-10-2010, 04:52 PM
Get rid of both of them. One's not that great, one's not that greater, the other just can't really play that well, at least in O'Brien's system...

Lord Helmet
10-10-2010, 04:58 PM
Get rid of both of them. One's not that great, one's not that greater, the other just can't really play that well, at least in O'Brien's system...
U madd?

BlueNGold
10-10-2010, 05:30 PM
Did Reggie Miller, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant, etc. get all the touches because "no one else wants the ball?"

Granger gets his fair share, but he's not the player assumed to get the last shot like those guys. IOW, I don't think anyone dominates that role on this team...so Rush should have a chance to shine.

I think this comes down to whether you think Brandon will ever develop a scorer's mentality. He really has to do that as a SG. Perhaps the lightbulb will switch on once the smoke clears. IDK. What I do know is that there's something wrong when a guy with his stroke shoots 63% from the line. There is a confidence or concentration issue. Not really sure which one...but I think it might be both.

In any event, it's time to kick the crutch out. He is going on 26 now and old enough to average in the teens on this team if he's ever going to be any good.

Pacers4Life
10-10-2010, 05:50 PM
here's whats up. Brandon almost HAS to start. We're arguing all of gifts and short-comings.. And i think we all have the same idea of who he is and what he can do... but where to UTILIZE these skills?

I... can't stand it when we have a lineup of say TJ, Brush, DJ, Hansboro, and it can be Hibbert. WHOS GONNA SCORE?
Brandon is so clueless offensively sometimes, correction: nonexistent on offense. He CANNOT come in with some ppl from the second unit. He needs to play full on D from the moment the game starts till the moment he's replaced with Dun or George. Then do it aaallll over again

Kid Minneapolis
10-10-2010, 06:36 PM
This team's roster is hardly locked in cement, especially at the SG, which means I'm up to try anything. I used to be more high on Rush than I am now (due to his "problem", which really made me lose respect for him and made me realize that he's probly never gonna put it together). I think when healthy, Dunleavy is probly the best player, but he hasn't looked himself in 2 years.

Jones is a backup.

It's pretty safe to say we know what we got with those three, and ya they present a logjam at that position because none of the three really presents any major advantage over the other... they're all "situational", which isn't the long-term solution.

The last person, the one who intrigues me, is Paul George. He might be the least experienced *now*, but I think he has the highest ceiling of the four. I'm of the mind to just start him and deal with his learning curve a la what the Colts did with P. Manning and see what we really have here.

spazzxb
10-10-2010, 06:57 PM
Cleary the way back to prosperity for the Pacers is by continuing to start a poor mans Quinton Ross. I wouldn't invest any more time or effort into Brandon Rush seeing as how he's not only an unproductive player, but also a substance abuser. I'd try to move him for a 2nd and give all the back-up SG minutes to George and Stephenson, with MDJ as the obvious starter.

You do realize you just implied that you believe using pot is worse than domestic violence right? Give Stephenson Rush's minutes? For this twisted outlook you must be on +"prescription" medication.

vnzla81
10-10-2010, 07:10 PM
You are correct but do you think that Larry, Michael, and Kobe did not use their supporting cast. I don't know if Granger is in their class but whether you want to argue that Granger is or isn't deserving of having the ball in his hands that much, consider that those guys were on teams that won and made the playoffs on a regular basis.

A one man team watching Granger is not a recipe for a successful team. Did Larry have McHale and a host of others? MJ had Scotty; Kobe had Shaq and Gasol; and Granger has Brandon?

I don't know if you understand but we been waiting for Granger to have a Robin for a long time and many people here (including myself) are hoping that that guy is Collisons, we don't need Rush to be that guy we need him to actually take pressure of Danny by defending the other team best player and hit open shots.

If Collisons is that player and he could get close to 20 ppg and Roy 15ppg I think the Pacers are going to be in good shape.

ChristianDudley
10-10-2010, 07:14 PM
I chose Brandon Rush even though I really like Dahntay Jones on our team. Brandon fits in real well in O'Brien's system as he can shoot the 3 and Dahntay wasn't able to here in Indy last season. Dahntay isn't afraid of driving it to the paint, though, whereas Brandon Rush seems frightened of driving to the rim, and when he does, he seems a little jumpy like he just doesn't have the confidence that he'll be able to score in the paint. Dahntay on the other hand will throw his body into people every chance he gets in the paint to try to either get to the free-throw line or get the layup/dunk. Plus Brandon is younger, so that is a plus on his side. Both have great defense and as of right now, Brandon has been the better defender on our team. O'Brien's lineup choices kills Dahntay's game on the defensive end as he is great at guarding PGs and SGs, whereas O'Brien has him defend PFs and bigger SFs lol.

McKeyFan
10-10-2010, 07:41 PM
I thought Brandon hit big shots for Kansas during their title run?
Chalmers hit the big shot at the end of the finals.

speakout4
10-10-2010, 07:49 PM
I don't know if you understand but we been waiting for Granger to have a Robin for a long time and many people here (including myself) are hoping that that guy is Collisons, we don't need Rush to be that guy we need him to actually take pressure of Danny by defending the other team best player and hit open shots.

If Collison is that player and he could get close to 20 ppg and Roy 15ppg I think the Pacers are going to be in good shape.
If you are a starter you have to be effective at both ends of the floor if you intend to have a long career. . Your depending on Collison to be the Robin that BR isn't. Perhaps George is the long term solution. I don't think he was drafted to take minutes away from Granger. As said by others BR will be a situational backup.

vnzla81
10-10-2010, 07:55 PM
If you are a starter you have to be effective at both ends of the floor if you intend to have a long career. . Perhaps George is the long term solution. I don't think he was drafted to take minutes away from Granger. As said by others BR will be a situational backup.

What about guys like Bruce Bowen(6ppg), Shane Battier(10.5ppg) and many other guys that started during their careers and won championships? again not everything is offense.

McKeyFan
10-10-2010, 07:56 PM
I guess the other thing is, I don't recall these moments the past two years where I left thinking "Man, Rush really let us down in the clutch."

Rush makes a lot of bad decisions. He's a liability in the clutch, imo.

My major problem with Rush is not offensive pensiveness or pot smoking or some of the other problems. It's bad decision-making. Remember when he took a step in-bounds throwing the ball in during clutch time?

He just doesn't seem to have the savvy and the smarts. He can't make a free throw. I would have traded him yesterday.

jhondog28
10-10-2010, 08:07 PM
What about guys like Bruce Bowen(6ppg), Shane Battier(10.5ppg) and many other guys that started during their careers and won championships? again not everything is offense.

You do know that Dunleavy was the reason they won that championship game..and it was his offensive numbers.

speakout4
10-10-2010, 08:10 PM
What about guys like Bruce Bowen(6ppg), Shane Battier(10.5ppg) and many other guys that started during their careers and won championships? again not everything is offense.
I wish we had the luxury of having defensive stoppers such as you suggest but that doesn't fit the pacers now. We don't even know who will replace Murphy's points so before we say Hibbert and Collison will score so many points/game we need BR to actually contribute on the offensive end. Battier was better rebounder, in assists, and FT.

Who is to say that what works for SA and Houston will work for the pacers? In case you haven't noticed our team isn't working yet.

I don't think BR is much better than other people we have at SG. Battier and Bowen played with some very good offensive players.

vnzla81
10-10-2010, 08:21 PM
I wish we had the luxury of having defensive stoppers such as you suggest but that doesn't fit the pacers now. We don't even know who will replace Murphy's points so before we say Hibbert and Collison will score so many points/game we need BR to actually contribute on the offensive end. Battier was better rebounder, in assists, and FT.

Who is to say that what works for SA and Houston will work for the pacers? In case you haven't noticed our team isn't working yet.

I don't think BR is much better than other people we have at SG. Battier and Bowen played with some very good offensive players.

I am sorry but just because the Pacers are not a good team does not mean that you don't need a defensive stopper, every team in the NBA needs one, as an example Ron Artest was that guy for the Lakers last year and he only average 11ppg and that is because Kobe, Gasol, Fishers and Odom were scoring most of the points.

I'm not saying that he have the same team as the Lakers but I think is possible for the Pacers to continue scoring the same way they been doing for the past three years and been one of the top scoring teams once again.

speakout4
10-10-2010, 08:31 PM
I am sorry but just because the Pacers are not a good team does not mean that you don't need a defensive stopper, every team in the NBA needs one, as an example Ron Artest was that guy for the Lakers last year and he only average 11ppg and that is because Kobe, Gasol, Fishers and Odom were scoring most of the points.

I'm not saying that he have the same team as the Lakers but I think is possible for the Pacers to continue scoring the same way they been doing for the past three years and been one of the top scoring teams once again.
I totally agree with your first paragraph and not at all with your second paragraph.

To suggest that BR is that kind of defensive asset is premature IMO and D. Jones is certainly not much behind him. So we obviously do not agree with respect to BR and time will tell who is more on the mark. Clearly this board has a mixed opinion.

Putnam
10-10-2010, 08:36 PM
I don't care about this topic. I wish Jones and Rush the best, and hope they can play their career bests this season.

I just want to say that for as long as he keeps the Psychedelic Roy avatar, I'm going to take everything spazzxb says very seriously. I hated his vicious boxer avatar, but Psychedelic Roy is great.

BringJackBack
10-10-2010, 08:39 PM
However, with all my "hate" on Brandon's game lately, he's really been trying to change his play style.

He's been shooting mid rangers and driving about 10x more than he used too. It seems like he decided to start being aggressive when things were turning for the worst for him.

I think he's averaged about 3 points this preseason. Nonetheless, he hasn't had any minutes.

Hicks
10-10-2010, 10:26 PM
Maybe, but stephen graham has more game winners than rush.

Which means........... nothing.

Hicks
10-10-2010, 10:28 PM
Granger gets his fair share, but he's not the player assumed to get the last shot like those guys. IOW, I don't think anyone dominates that role on this team...so Rush should have a chance to shine.

Completely disagree.

flox
10-10-2010, 10:54 PM
Completely disagree.

In the Jim O'brien era we have seen gamewinners attempted by TJ, Jack, Quis, Dunleavy, and Granger...

BlueNGold
10-10-2010, 10:55 PM
Completely disagree.

Really? Ok. I know his number may be called more often than anyone else, but dominate? When I say dominate I mean MJ and Reggie level.

In our offense, we have seen TJ and Murphy take the shot multiple times. I think Watson as well. Jarrett Jack actually made some....and even Foster back in Jan. 2009 shot an air ball...;)

Honestly, there are limited times where a last second shot comes into play and I know too many guys have taken part with it. Yes, Danny is the most likely guy but hardly a given...and hardly that effective either.

Back in the day, Reggie would almost always take that shot because the system was geared for it. Not so with this offense. Far too disorganized and Danny is often covered up. Reggie would whip through picks and launch it even though everyone in the building knew with about a 99% certainty it was going to him. Again, not so with Danny.

Hicks
10-10-2010, 10:55 PM
And how many of those do you think were by design other than Danny? Maybe TJ?

flox
10-10-2010, 10:56 PM
Jack and Dunleavy I think also were ones that were designed for them.

BlueNGold
10-10-2010, 10:57 PM
In the Jim O'brien era we have seen gamewinners attempted by TJ, Jack, Quis, Dunleavy, and Granger...

Man, we are on a winning streak. Lightening has struck twice now.

I think part of this has to do with my Reggie Miller upbringing. There is an enormous gap between his ability to close out games and anyone else I've seen in Indy.

vnzla81
10-10-2010, 11:03 PM
Man, we are on a winning streak. Lightening has struck twice now.

I think part of this has to do with my Reggie Miller upbringing. There is an enormous gap between his ability to close out games and anyone else I've seen in Indy.

So according to you Danny is not the guy that can hit that last shot either because he is not good enough to get open or because he is been cover so you expect everybody else in the team to be able to do that?

flox
10-10-2010, 11:05 PM
Man, we are on a winning streak. Lightening has struck twice now.

I think part of this has to do with my Reggie Miller upbringing. There is an enormous gap between his ability to close out games and anyone else I've seen in Indy.

I'm generally confused right now- i feel like I died and went to heaven and thats why we are agreeing with each other right now.

Yeah, I feel like Danny does get his number of shots, but we see them run for other people that aren't Danny as well, and more than people would expect/

1984
10-11-2010, 12:23 AM
Neither. I'd rather play a healthy Mike and develop Paul George. If I had to decide I would chose Rush. I like Dahntay better on 29 teams in the NBA. Unfortunately, this is not one of them. As long as Jim O'Brien is the coach of the Indiana Pacers, I do not think Dahntay's skillset compliments the system.

If I were king of the world, and I could rebuild the Pacers and institute a new system, Dahntay would stay and Rush would go. If for no other reason than Dahntay's reasonable contract and Brandon's poor character (I.E., liability).

Trophy
10-11-2010, 07:38 AM
Mike looks a lot more comfortable shooting in preseason so far which is why I think he's worthy to start.

I happen to like both guys. I think Brandon, who is inconsistent can get on a shooting/scoring role once in a while finish with at least 12 points. Plus he's younger.

BlueNGold
10-11-2010, 07:59 AM
So according to you Danny is not the guy that can hit that last shot either because he is not good enough to get open or because he is been cover so you expect everybody else in the team to be able to do that?

Danny's a good player. My favorite on the team. However, getting his own shot has never been his strong suit...although he's getting a bit better. Is he the best at this on this particular team? IDK, but TJ Ford probably has a decent argument for that particular category of the game.

As a result, I think the Pacers have taken a "surprise attack" approach in late game situations at times...and it's not been that infrequent where someone else launches the shot. The bottom line is, no one is assuming Danny will always be the guy. I know I don't assume it because I know the other team will have their best defender on him...and so does JOb. Combine that with Danny's limited ability to get his own shot off...and I think there are probably frequent Option 1A and 1B and maybe 1C versus simply option 1.

Edit: So to your question, I guess the answer is yes. However, I think that basically applies to all of our players. That's part of the reason I think it's done by committee to some extent. Not to say Danny is not always an option obviously.

McKeyFan
10-11-2010, 08:09 AM
Danny struggles getting his own shot, and he's been slacking on defense and has other weaknesses.

But I have been greatly, pleasantly surprised at how good he is at the end of games. Extremely clutch, in my opinion.

vnzla81
10-11-2010, 08:11 AM
I understand your point but I think the pacers issues in last second shots are not because they don't have the talent but because coaching is bad at drawing plays.

I think that one guy that is going to have a chance to do this for the pacers is going to be Collison he is the robin for our Batman(at least we hope)

Edit:answer to bluengold

BlueNGold
10-11-2010, 08:46 AM
I understand your point but I think the pacers issues in last second shots are not because they don't have the talent but because coaching is bad at drawing plays.

I think that one guy that is going to have a chance to do this for the pacers is going to be Collison he is the robin for our Batman(at least we hope)

Edit:answer to bluengold

I think that's part of it. We know it has to be either the players or coaches because we have not exactly been tearing it up. As for Danny, no, I don't think he's particularly clutch...but at least he's unafraid. There is a long list of players in the NBA who would be better at that role simply because they can handle the ball better and might be quicker. I'm thinking guards.