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View Full Version : Oh No Rumors are circulating that the new system isn't exactly gelling with Collison



90'sNBARocked
10-06-2010, 11:50 AM
http://3sob.com/archives/59-october-2010/1163-grizzlies-vs-pacers-october-6
Written by Chip Crain


This looks like a great matchup on paper with both players around 6 ft tall and lightning quick. The problem is that Collison abused Conley in last year's matchups. Of course Collison was on New Orleans then and it is unknown how well his game will translate with Indiana that doesn't run as many pick and roll plays. Rumors are circulating that the new system isn't exactly gelling with Collison. Conley has the advantage of returning with players he is intimately familar with and a coaching staff that knows his strengths and weaknesses. It is unlikely that will make enough of a difference however.

Yes it is only an ubsubstantiated rumor, but not good to say the least. Looks like Stubborn Jim is going to have a problem yet again with a PG not adapting to his system.

Maybe , just maybe its not the PG's , but Obie's insistence on having the players fit his style and not the other way around.

If this rears its ugly head during the season, I hope Bird replaces Obie quickly before we have another unhappy PG on our team

MillerTime
10-06-2010, 11:55 AM
Im not too worried abou this. I would expect Bird to replace the coach before he replaces a PG like Collison who has all the potential in the world

Unclebuck
10-06-2010, 11:55 AM
Who the H is Chip Crain. And how in the H would he have any idea.

IMO and in only my opinion this type of thread is why I sometimes dislike this forum. Here we are likely going to pick apart a throw away line from some out of town reporter. They haven't even played a pre-season game yet.

And everything we have seen and heard is that Collison has had a great first week, so why let Chip ruin that

Hicks
10-06-2010, 11:55 AM
The Grizzlies' blogger saying it doesn't make it true. He's probably just going by what's come out of the IndyStar and how it's an adjustment for DC.

Collison says he's adjusting, Jim says he's adjusting, Wells said he's looked good. Which do you trust more, the Memphis blogger, or those 3 combined?

It's no secret Collison was in a heavy P&R system last year, did well in it, and that coming here to a motion offense was going to be an adjustment that wouldn't immediately happen. That doesn't translate to 'rumors circulating that it isn't gelling with Collison.'

Oh, screw it. Anyone who wants to freak out about this, is going to freak out about this, no matter what. :onozomg:

Diamond Dave
10-06-2010, 11:56 AM
Thanks for posting. I'm not buying it yet. From our end we have heard nothing and seen nothing to believe this. In fact, Darren is living up too or exceeding expectations in camp. A person who is playing really well isn't likely to not understand or dislike a system. Wouldn't it be the player who is underperforming that would be rumored to not gell with the system? I'll keep this in mind simply based off of JOB's history, but that is all.

Sookie
10-06-2010, 11:58 AM
I've posted for a while, I don't think Collison's game gells with O'brien's system.

But I think we ought to see what happens before we get nervous about it.

graphic-er
10-06-2010, 12:02 PM
The Jim O'brien show is going to be a hoot this year. Tons of people calling up asking why they aren't running PnR. JOB saying that nobody on the team is good at it. Fans saying Collison is great a PnR. Yadda yadda yadda....

Infact i bet Obrien gets fired in the middle of the season, not because of the record, but because he goes off on some fan who complains about him ruining DC and not running the PnR, which becomes a huge PR nightmare for the Pacers.

CableKC
10-06-2010, 12:09 PM
The way I look at it is that it's more important that DC gels with Granger/BRush/George/Tyler/Hibbert/Lance/AJ/Magnum this season then it is for DC to gel with a Coach and System that won't likely be here at the start of the 2011-2012 season.

Sparhawk
10-06-2010, 12:11 PM
Plus, it's not like JOB will be around next year, so ultimately, it doesn't really matter. Just need to make sure they next coach can work with what we have instead of forcing a system that doesn't make sense with the current personnel.

duke dynamite
10-06-2010, 12:15 PM
This little blurb is going in the trash bin. This guy has what connection with the Pacers? We've had a week and a half of training camp, and this is what they come up with? The nerve of some writers.

I just love how one little article that is totally bogus and unconfirmed could cause you all to continue bashing the coach and you guys cannot just let go.

We have the first pre-season game tonight.

Why is everyone not excited? Focus on that, wait a while before you all start jumping off the cliff.

90'sNBARocked
10-06-2010, 12:19 PM
Who the H is Chip Crain. And how in the H would he have any idea.

IMO and in only my opinion this type of thread is why I sometimes dislike this forum. Here we are likely going to pick apart a throw away line from some out of town reporter. They haven't even played a pre-season game yet.

And everything we have seen and heard is that Collison has had a great first week, so why let Chip ruin that

As opposed to the "let's burry are head in the sand and pretend evreything is ok"

It never ceases to amaze me how peole say basically that they cant stand a thread but take the time to comment and continue to post on it (not saying you Buck specifically)

Maybe the writer doesnt have the high credentials some of you would like, but I am sure he didnt make this up out of the clear blue sky. I suppose if nothing comes of this than it was BS, but I am saying right now if this becomes known at any point in the season, then obviously not everyone is "looking to stir the pot"

Obie does not like to utilize the pick and roll, one of DC's strengths

At the begining of each season Obie has gone on record annoiting the next great PG only to bench them later on .

Tinsley - proclaimed a great PG by Obie, starts the season only to be becnhed and cast aside from the team
Ford - Obie excited to have him after the trade only to bench him later in favor of Jarret Jack
Ford- Starts the season again last year only to be benched again in favor of Earl Watson

Seeing a pattern here? or is it all the PG's fault, or Obie loves back up PG's

It doesnt make me "negative nick' because I point out what I dont like. I am just as big a Pacer fan as those who lwant evreything fluffy and nice

What excuse could you possibly have , if after another 4 years of losing records, consistent problems with the coach-PG relationship

The guy is a stubborn mule who has had 4 freakin years and cant even get us to sniff the playoffs. Oh but wait the "magical run" late in the season that screwed us out of a top pick will carry over this year to great success

We dont have to agree , nor does it make one person right and the other wrong

The guy is a poor coach, a stubborn ego out of control, and if it wasnt for the Pacers, probably would have never been a head coach again

Hicks
10-06-2010, 12:21 PM
As opposed to the "let's burry are head in the sand and pretend evreything is ok"

It's not pretending when it appears to be the truth!

duke dynamite
10-06-2010, 12:23 PM
As opposed to the "let's burry are head in the sand and pretend evreything is ok"

It never ceases to amaze me how peole say basically that they cant stand a thread but take the time to comment and continue to post on it (not saying you Buck specifically)

Maybe the writer doesnt have...blah blah blah, yada yada yada
Calm down and just enjoy the game tonight!

MLB007
10-06-2010, 12:28 PM
If the Pacers make the playoffs, OB isn't likely to be going anywhere.

Speed
10-06-2010, 12:30 PM
Mountain meet Molehill.

duke dynamite
10-06-2010, 12:32 PM
If the Pacers make the playoffs, OB isn't likely to be going anywhere.
But that's progress, isn't it?

90'sNBARocked
10-06-2010, 12:33 PM
It's not pretending when it appears to be the truth!

I understand that, but I doubt the writer, regardless of how well he is connected would just bite off another article that was already written or make it up

To have access to the NBA you need credentials, credentials I'm sure are not given away so I think he must have spoken or heard from people who echoed DC situation

I am still very excited for the season, I love Bird but cant stand Obie.

I am excited to watch the game tonight, so much so that Iam leaving work early

I cant wait to see the development of Paul/Lance/MAgnum

I cant wait to see Roy develop chemistry with McBob

I cant wait to see DC in action against the elite NBA PG's

I cant wait to see Roy's success from all the hard work in the summer

so yeah Im very excited, just not about our coach

Sookie
10-06-2010, 12:39 PM
Okay, as much as I don't like JOB, I have got to say..that yea..I think most of the problems from the previous two PGs were the two PGs faults. Ford and Tinsley...and we aren't going to blame them partially. (Ford's been a classy guy OFF the court..but seriously..)

I don't think Collison is going to be comfortable with this offense, because he's naturally a ball dominant PG.

That being said from watching last season, it seemed like there were two parts to the offense. (I really think it's a crappy version of paul ball. But I've gotten into that before.)

There's part 1, which is the transition/quick shot/move the ball bit. Then after that there's part 2, which ends up being a lot of individual play..or the PG makes decisions. Ford's decision tended to be to overly dribble and turn it over. Watson seemed to continue to move the ball or let someone else take over. Price on the hand, ran PnRs. So why wouldn't he allow Collison to do the same?

duke dynamite
10-06-2010, 12:39 PM
I understand that, but I doubt the writer, regardless of how well he is connected would just bite off another article that was already written or make it up

To have access to the NBA you need credentials, credentials I'm sure are not given away so I think he must have spoken or heard from people who echoed DC situation

Tyson Chandler just had a bowel movement. It shook all of Southern California.

OMG, I just wrote about an NBA player. I don't have any credentials.

MagicRat
10-06-2010, 12:40 PM
Darren probably just needs to replace his insoles.

MLB007
10-06-2010, 12:42 PM
As opposed to the "let's burry are head in the sand and pretend evreything is ok"

It never ceases to amaze me how peole say basically that they cant stand a thread but take the time to comment and continue to post on it (not saying you Buck specifically)

Maybe the writer doesnt have the high credentials some of you would like, but I am sure he didnt make this up out of the clear blue sky. I suppose if nothing comes of this than it was BS, but I am saying right now if this becomes known at any point in the season, then obviously not everyone is "looking to stir the pot.

Obie does not like to utilize the pick and roll, one of DC's strengths

OB has explained withing the past week or two, in print, that he is fine with P/R but hasn't had anyone that was any good at it. His offense IS the passing offense, but there will be plenty of P/R

At the begining of each season Obie has gone on record annoiting the next great PG only to bench them later on .

What would YOU expect any coach to say under the circumstances? This is the player where trust is probably the most important factor of any.

Tinsley - proclaimed a great PG by Obie, starts the season only to be becnhed and cast aside from the team

Because he couldn't follow the rules and what his coach wanted. Guess all those teams that went after him when he was available tells the real story, eh? ;)

Ford - Obie excited to have him after the trade only to bench him later in favor of Jarret Jack
Because he sucked and JJ was better?

Ford- Starts the season again last year only to be benched again in favor of Earl Watson
Because he sucked again?

Seeing a pattern here? or is it all the PG's fault, or Obie loves back up PG's
Yet Earn and JJ followed what OB demanded and didn't seem to have any problems playing for the guy. hmmmmmm

It doesnt make me "negative nick' because I point out what I dont like. I am just as big a Pacer fan as those who lwant evreything fluffy and nice

What excuse could you possibly have , if after another 4 years of losing records, consistent problems with the coach-PG relationship
Not a coach in the NBA that could have won with the team we have had up to this year.
Again, Watson and JJ seemed to have a fine relationship with their coach.
hmmmm

The guy is a stubborn mule who has had 4 freakin years and cant even get us to sniff the playoffs. Oh but wait the "magical run" late in the season that screwed us out of a top pick will carry over this year to great success

I don't think OB is a great coach. But I also don't think he's a horrible coach and isn't it funny that the PTB seem to agree with me? In those 4 years with VERY little talent, this team has rebuilt VERY quickly. And YES, I expect that starting to learn what it takes to close out games last year WILL carry over. Can't imagine why anyone would expect less given the pieces we've added........
Now THAT is a negative nick....... :box:

We dont have to agree , nor does it make one person right and the other wrong
Nope we sure don't (and won't. And one of us WILL be proven right.
In time.

The guy is a poor coach, a stubborn ego out of control, and if it wasnt for the Pacers, probably would have never been a head coach again

What will you say if this team makes the playoffs and is as fun to watch as they CAN be??

Tom White
10-06-2010, 12:43 PM
I understand that, but I doubt the writer, regardless of how well he is connected would just bite off another article that was already written or make it up

It happens all the time.


To have access to the NBA you need credentials, credentials I'm sure are not given away so I think he must have spoken or heard from people who echoed DC situation



What "access" does he have? Can you say for sure? If you think he had access to people who have "echoed DC situation" don't you think people like Mike Wells would have had at least as much access, and would have been all over that story?

90'sNBARocked
10-06-2010, 12:50 PM
Mountain meet Molehill.

I hope so bro

but I would like to add that quote to my sig line in the event it does become a mountain

Sookie
10-06-2010, 12:51 PM
It happens all the time.



What "access" does he have? Can you say for sure? If you think he had access to people who have "echoed DC situation" don't you think people like Mike Wells would have had at least as much access, and would have been all over that story?

I believe Wells did right an article about DC where it's talked about him struggling with the offense.

Once again though, to be fair. This is not something he's used to doing, and it was the first week of practice.

naptownmenace
10-06-2010, 12:52 PM
Who the H is Chip Crain. And how in the H would he have any idea.

IMO and in only my opinion this type of thread is why I sometimes dislike this forum. Here we are likely going to pick apart a throw away line from some out of town reporter. They haven't even played a pre-season game yet.

And everything we have seen and heard is that Collison has had a great first week, so why let Chip ruin that

Agreed. Everything I've read is that no one can stay with DC on defense when he has the ball in his hands and that he has been money with the mid-range jumper whenever they run the pick-and-roll.

I think he's a smart player and will be just fine and if he's killing the opposition in pick-and-roll or isolation sets, Jimmy will call those plays. Just look at how many isolation plays they ran with Jack and Ford the past 2 seasons.

90'sNBARocked
10-06-2010, 12:53 PM
What will you say if this team makes the playoffs and is as fun to watch as they CAN be??

I will say right on, and watch with pleasure!!!

Of course I will still want Obie canned :)

90'sNBARocked
10-06-2010, 12:54 PM
Tyson Chandler just had a bowel movement. It shook all of Southern California.

OMG, I just wrote about an NBA player. I don't have any credentials.

weak dude

duke dynamite
10-06-2010, 12:55 PM
I will say right on, and watch with pleasure!!!

Of course I will still want Obie canned :)
And if you were Bird or Morway, who would you choose to replace him?

vnzla81
10-06-2010, 12:56 PM
And if you were Bird or Morway, who would you choose to replace him?

Anybody?

90'sNBARocked
10-06-2010, 12:57 PM
It happens all the time.



What "access" does he have? Can you say for sure? If you think he had access to people who have "echoed DC situation" don't you think people like Mike Wells would have had at least as much access, and would have been all over that story?

Cool

and what will you say Tom , if a month or so we start hearing the grumbblings that DC is not happy

Will people come back and admit there was a smiggin of truth? Or will there be more justification of why it happened and how its not Jims fault

For the record, I earnestly hope I am wrong

Trophy
10-06-2010, 12:58 PM
Who cares what this guy has to say. Does anyone even know who he is?

Based on the scrimmage videos, it looks like Darren is comfortable playing in this system and with the team.

90'sNBARocked
10-06-2010, 12:59 PM
I am one of the main writers at 3 Shades of Blue, a Memphis Grizzlies fan blog, and I cover the Southwest Division of the NBA for About.com. I am a Certified Financial Practioneer (CFP) and have a practice in Memphis, TN. That is my job. The writing is just a hobby

That was the "writer's" bio :rolleyes:

Now let me enjoy that hot plate of crow

duke dynamite
10-06-2010, 01:00 PM
Anybody?
You'll ***** and complain about them, too. :D

Peck
10-06-2010, 01:02 PM
Well at least it's nice to see that both sides of the O'Brien support/hate group are already up to full speed in their pre-season grenade throwing/diving on positions.

I figure give us about two weeks into the season and we will all be at mid season form for sure.

Sookie
10-06-2010, 01:02 PM
Agreed. Everything I've read is that no one can stay with DC on defense when he has the ball in his hands and that he has been money with the mid-range jumper whenever they run the pick-and-roll.
I think he's a smart player and will be just fine and if he's killing the opposition in pick-and-roll or isolation sets, Jimmy will call those plays. Just look at how many isolation plays they ran with Jack and Ford the past 2 seasons.

Lance Stephenson, TJ Ford, and AJ Price have been defending Collison in practice....That's bad defense, lazy defense, and injured defense. I would hope Collison would chew them all up.

As much as we want to take negative things with a grain of salt, we should probably take the positive with a grain of salt too, and just see how he does. Collison seems like he's a smart player, and even if the offense isn't a natural thing to him or doesn't make him as effective, I'm sure he'll work through it. He's only got a year of it anyway.

MagicRat
10-06-2010, 01:03 PM
and what will you say Tom , if a month or so we start hearing the grumbblings that DC is not happy

Will people come back and admit there was a smiggin of truth? Or will there be more justification of why it happened and how its not Jims fault

Some men you just can't reach.

Hicks
10-06-2010, 01:04 PM
I understand that, but I doubt the writer, regardless of how well he is connected would just bite off another article that was already written

The media does that all the time.


To have access to the NBA you need credentials, credentials I'm sure are not given away so I think he must have spoken or heard from people who echoed DC situation

Who said he had credentials? And for that matter, remember that other guy who we know has credentials and is paid to follow the Pacers, Mike Wells? The same guy supporting the idea that there's no "rumor of not gelling"?

BobbyMac
10-06-2010, 01:12 PM
Thanks for posting. I'm not buying it yet. From our end we have heard nothing and seen nothing to believe this. In fact, Darren is living up too or exceeding expectations in camp. A person who is playing really well isn't likely to not understand or dislike a system. Wouldn't it be the player who is underperforming that would be rumored to not gell with the system? I'll keep this in mind simply based off of JOB's history, but that is all.

I agree, we have no reason to believe that there is a problem.

count55
10-06-2010, 01:15 PM
Who the H is Chip Crain. And how in the H would he have any idea.

IMO and in only my opinion this type of thread is why I sometimes dislike this forum. Here we are likely going to pick apart a throw away line from some out of town reporter. They haven't even played a pre-season game yet.

And everything we have seen and heard is that Collison has had a great first week, so why let Chip ruin that

Chip, like me, is a writer for the True Hoop Network - on the Memphis Blog "3 Shades of Blue." He is not one of the guys that I have interacted with much, so I can't comment a lot on him overall. I'm pretty sure that 3SOB is credentialed.

That blog is relatively well connected with the Memphis organization, but, this is almost certainly a throw-away line, and almost certainly a condensed re-reporting of Wells comments about Collison adjusting to having the ball in his hands less.

Out of necessity, most beat reporters in the NBA (and credentialed bloggers) heavily use the work of other beat reporters. It takes too much time and effort to keep up with your own team to be able to do anything else. For example, much of Wells' reporting of the Murphy-to-Cleveland rumors last year consisted of what Brian Windhorst (the Cavs beat reporter) either reported or told him.

In any case, I've got an e-mail into Chip asking for clarification.

Besides, he also said this:


Memphis has improved their bench from last season with the rookies and Tony Allen but Indiana's bench has established players in most positions. T J Ford at the point is a great start. Brandon Rush and Dahntay Jones will be backing up Granger and Dunleavy and Greg Foster is still an excellent big off the bench. If Hansbrough can return to full health their bench is very strong.

Unclebuck
10-06-2010, 01:16 PM
As opposed to the "let's burry are head in the sand and pretend evreything is ok"



My head isn't buried anywhere. I'm not suggesting everything or anything is OK. I'm suggesting how does some low level reporter from Memphis have any idea what is going on with the pacers.

And excuse me if everytime we get a drop of rain I don't panic and start building an ark.

Most of all can we wait until an actual game is played.

I give up.

"rumors are circulating" based on what - certainly not what Chip has written here.

Tom White
10-06-2010, 01:19 PM
Anybody?

That could be considered both a question, and an answer.

90'sNBARocked
10-06-2010, 01:19 PM
And if you were Bird or Morway, who would you choose to replace him?

Jeff Van Gundy or Tyrone Corbin

Unclebuck
10-06-2010, 01:20 PM
Well at least it's nice to see that both sides of the O'Brien support/hate group are already up to full speed in their pre-season grenade throwing/diving on positions.

I figure give us about two weeks into the season and we will all be at mid season form for sure.

I'm not supporting anyone, how can I as I have not seen this years team yet. That is my point.

90'sNBARocked
10-06-2010, 01:21 PM
Some men you just can't reach.

Oh great one of wisdom

care to elaborate

Tom White
10-06-2010, 01:22 PM
That was the "writer's" bio :rolleyes:

Now let me enjoy that hot plate of crow

You can't really be held fully to blame. I mean, you read it on the internet, right? Everyone knows that EVERYTHING written on the internet has to be 100% factual truth, right? I mean, you surely must have to have some kind of credentials to write on the internet, don't you?

:D

90'sNBARocked
10-06-2010, 01:23 PM
Yeah I LOL'd at the "Greg" Foster reference.

I wonder if this is the same guy who made that mistake last year

90'sNBARocked
10-06-2010, 01:24 PM
My head isn't buried anywhere. I'm not suggesting everything or anything is OK. I'm suggesting how does some low level reporter from Memphis have any idea what is going on with the pacers.

And excuse me if everytime we get a drop of rain I don't panic and start building an ark.

Most of all can we wait until an actual game is played.

I give up.

"rumors are circulating" based on what - certainly not what Chip has written here.

Its Cool Buck

Dont want to go back and forth either

I truly hope your right and Im wrong

90'sNBARocked
10-06-2010, 01:26 PM
You can't really be held fully to blame. I mean, you read it on the internet, right? Everyone knows that EVERYTHING written on the internet has to be 100% factual truth, right? I mean, you surely must have to have some kind of credentials to write on the internet, don't you?

:D

Your correct in the fact that the internet has allowed anyone to claim to be a NBA "writer"

That being said even the weakest connected writer can catch a lucky break some time. It doesnt mean he is right or wrong necessarly

Like I said I hope he is off base and you gentlemen are corredt

vnzla81
10-06-2010, 01:27 PM
I'm not sure if this is true but I remember that last year we heard that the pacers locker room was not a happy place, even some names came up about who were the players that were unhappy, again not saying that this is true but is possible.

Justin Tyme
10-06-2010, 02:01 PM
If the Pacers make the playoffs, OB isn't likely to be going anywhere.


Bite your tongue.

I never liked the hiring of Jimmy, but I understand the reason was a coach to hold down the fort until Bird could change things. I don't care if the Pacers make the playoffs, O'Brien has no more usefulness as the Pacers coach. A new coach that can take the Pacers to the next level is what is required. A coach who is not stubborn with a terrible case of tunnel vision that his system/style is the the only way. A coach who doesn't think the ultimate game is one with a score of 135-127 with no "D" and 3 pt shooting galore.

4 years of Jimmy is more than enough, and as far as I'm concerned 1 year too many! I want to see the Pacers do well this year, but I want ownership and Bird to understand Jimmy's usefulness has passed. It's time to go forward with a different coach for the future.

vnzla81
10-06-2010, 02:04 PM
Bite your tongue.

I never liked the hiring of Jimmy, but I understand the reason was a coach to hold down the fort until Bird could change things. I don't care if the Pacers make the playoffs, O'Brien has no more usefulness as the Pacers coach. A new coach that can take the Pacers to the next level is what is required. A coach who is not stubborn with a terrible case of tunnel vision that his system/style is the the only way. A coach who doesn't think the ultimate game is one with a score of 135-127 with no "D" and 3 pt shooting galore.

4 years of Jimmy is more than enough, and as far as I'm concerned 1 year too many! I want to see the Pacers do well this year, but I want ownership and Bird to understand Jimmy's usefulness has passed. It's time to go forward with a different coach for the future.


Amen

Really?
10-06-2010, 02:11 PM
All I have to say is I am ready for the game tonight. Not a super DC fan but I gues I will have to see how everything goes and hope for the best.

P.S. I hope PG Dunks on someone today...I would loveeeeeee that

Speed
10-06-2010, 02:17 PM
Jeff Van Gundy or Tyrone Corbin

I hope Jeff Van Gundy hates being a broadcaster this year, this year, this year, this ye....

Under new coach Jeff Van Gundy and with the signing of Al Horford, the Pacers look like a team that no one wants to play in the playoffs.

What?!?!

:D

MagicRat
10-06-2010, 02:24 PM
Oh great one of wisdom

care to elaborate

If he breaks the offense one time, he's got himself a DNP. He breaks the offense twice he's got himself two DNPs. He ain't gonna need no third DNP, 'cause he's gonna get his mind right.

count55
10-06-2010, 02:25 PM
If he breaks the offense one time, he's got himself a DNP. He breaks the offense twice he's got himself two DNPs. He ain't gonna need no third DNP, 'cause he's gonna get his mind right.

Like he's going to get that reference.

90'sNBARocked
10-06-2010, 02:41 PM
If he breaks the offense one time, he's got himself a DNP. He breaks the offense twice he's got himself two DNPs. He ain't gonna need no third DNP, 'cause he's gonna get his mind right.

My apologies as I thought you were referring to me, not the coach

Brad8888
10-06-2010, 02:54 PM
I hope Jeff Van Gundy hates being a broadcaster this year, this year, this year, this ye....

Under new coach Jeff Van Gundy and with the signing of Al Horford, the Pacers look like a team that no one wants to play in the playoffs.

What?!?!

:D

Unfortunately, unless it was Walsh that was the problem with Stan, I doubt Jeff would return Larry's call. :(

Wouldn't mind Horford, though. :)

Unclebuck
10-06-2010, 03:05 PM
I might ask this in its own thread before the season starts, but my question is:

For those of you who are concerned that Jim won't run enough pick and rolls when Collison is on the floor. Give me a % of how many PnR you want. Would 50% be enough, do you want 75%. I would just like to know, sure it is easy to say they don't run it enough, but let me know how many you want, and then maybe we'll look at it over a 5 or 10 (regular season) game period to see what % it is being run.

Sookie
10-06-2010, 03:20 PM
I might ask this in its own thread before the season starts, but my question is:

For those of you who are concerned that Jim won't run enough pick and rolls when Collison is on the floor. Give me a % of how many PnR you want. Would 50% be enough, do you want 75%. I would just like to know, sure it is easy to say they don't run it enough, but let me know how many you want, and then maybe we'll look at it over a 5 or 10 (regular season) game period to see what % it is being run.

JOB has his preference for his offense (quick shot off of transition).

But I'd like the PnR with Collison (or Price if he's in) to be the backup plan if they can't get a shot they want. I don't know how often that'll be, but that's what I'd like to see. Or an "option of last resort to get a good shot." (Obviously getting the ball into Hibbert is also a good idea and such, but like I said..last resort)

So the only time I'll be unhappy is if instead of seeing the PnR, we see limited ball movement and poor shots. The PnR is a good option as a backup plan, IMO.

HeliumFear
10-06-2010, 03:27 PM
PGs usually take time to adjust to new systems,they haven't played a game yet,and J'OB is gone next year anyway. Is it rreally shocking that a system that forces PGs to play more without the ball might throw a guy who dominated the ball last season off a little bit at first? No needd to panic.

Brad8888
10-06-2010, 03:29 PM
I might ask this in its own thread before the season starts, but my question is:

For those of you who are concerned that Jim won't run enough pick and rolls when Collison is on the floor. Give me a % of how many PnR you want. Would 50% be enough, do you want 75%. I would just like to know, sure it is easy to say they don't run it enough, but let me know how many you want, and then maybe we'll look at it over a 5 or 10 (regular season) game period to see what % it is being run.

I want so many picks to be set by our bigs that they must wear long sleeve shirts like Georgetown used to in an effort to hide the shoulder and upper arm bruising caused by opponents running smack into them at full speed and ending up flat on their backsides. Remember, Collison never passes the ball unless it is to feed a big. He ONLY likes PnR. It is the only play he knows how to run, isn't it?

Come on. If the Pacers implement a properly executed and balanced passing based motion offense that has screening as a component, there will be plenty of PnR, curl moves, back cuts, and other fundamental plays that will occur within the flow of the offense.

By the way, that also will be the indicator that the offense has actually been changed to suit Collison's skillset, as well as that of Hibbert, McRoberts, Dunleavy, Hansbrough, Rush, Price, George...nearly every significant player on the Pacers roster besides Granger, and possibly Stephenson, actually.

The question is actually if the Pacers are in fact changing the offense. The first chance to see if that may be the case is coming right up, and once again, I hope that you are right about O'Brien changing things.

pacer4ever
10-06-2010, 03:30 PM
I called this right away he wants the ball in his hands

TheDon
10-06-2010, 03:40 PM
:picardriker:

You guys get worked up far too easily, talk about beating a dead horse.

naptownmenace
10-06-2010, 03:41 PM
I might ask this in its own thread before the season starts, but my question is:

For those of you who are concerned that Jim won't run enough pick and rolls when Collison is on the floor. Give me a % of how many PnR you want. Would 50% be enough, do you want 75%. I would just like to know, sure it is easy to say they don't run it enough, but let me know how many you want, and then maybe we'll look at it over a 5 or 10 (regular season) game period to see what % it is being run.

I think the Pacers should be running the PnR at least on 40 possessions per game or at least on 50% of their total possessions. Their offensive style should be similar to Orlando, San Antonio, and Miami's (last year with Wade).

For example, the Orlando Magic in games 1 and 2 in last year's playoffs ran PnR plays 61 times and scored on 55% of those plays. This article breaks it down really well:
http://www.orlandopinstripedpost.com/2010/5/8/1463275/the-orlando-magics-pick-and-roll

You can also visit this past thread for more good info (I just added some stats and percentages today).

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?p=1069395#post1069395

MLB007
10-06-2010, 03:44 PM
But that's progress, isn't it?

Sober up, I was defending him.

duke dynamite
10-06-2010, 03:45 PM
Sober up, I was defending him.
Heh...:buddies:

MLB007
10-06-2010, 03:48 PM
I believe Wells did right an article about DC where it's talked about him struggling with the offense.

Once again though, to be fair. This is not something he's used to doing, and it was the first week of practice.

I would wager THAT is where the other guy heard the "rumor".

MLB007
10-06-2010, 03:53 PM
I think the Pacers should be running the PnR at least on 40 possessions per game or at least on 50% of their total possessions. Their offensive style should be similar to Orlando, San Antonio, and Miami's (last year with Wade).

For example, the Orlando Magic in games 1 and 2 in last year's playoffs ran PnR plays 61 times and scored on 55% of those plays. This article breaks it down really well:
http://www.orlandopinstripedpost.com/2010/5/8/1463275/the-orlando-magics-pick-and-roll

You can also visit this past thread for more good info (I just added some stats and percentages today).

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?p=1069395#post1069395

So the Orlando Magic, with DWIGHT HOWARD presumably involved in most of those PnR's, scored 55% of the time.
And the Miamia Heat with DWAYNE WADE??
San Antonio with TIM DUNCAN???

This FROM the article you referenced: "That information shouldn't surprise anyone, though: as Bradford Doolittle wrote in his series preview, the Hawks defended the pick-and-roll miserably during the regular season, and the Magic ran it expertly. It's a case of one team's strength being another's weakness. To illustrate, here are some data"

Gee, that is a TELLING testimonial to the PnR offense. :D

count55
10-06-2010, 03:57 PM
Clarification from Chip Crain:


I can't remember where I read about the pick and roll adjustment possibly causing him problems but I suspect it was ESPN and thanks for catching the Foster typo. Greg was with the Bullets when I lived in DC. I think he actually played for a while on the Pacers too but I clearly screwed that up.

MLB007
10-06-2010, 04:04 PM
Some men you just can't reach.

you could reach them with a .44 magnum.
The most powerful handgun in the world.

(this worked better when you could see that his avatar is Clint Eastwood........_)

spazzxb
10-06-2010, 04:05 PM
you kinda just specifically called out uncle buck, (first sign that you just may be trolling.)
As opposed to the "let's burry are head in the sand and pretend evreything is ok"

It never ceases to amaze me how peole say basically that they cant stand a thread but take the time to comment and continue to post on it (not saying you Buck specifically)

Maybe the writer doesnt have the high credentials some of you would like, but I am sure he didnt make this up out of the clear blue sky. I suppose if nothing comes of this than it was BS, but I am saying right now if this becomes known at any point in the season, then obviously not everyone is "looking to stir the pot"

Obie does not like to utilize the pick and roll, one of DC's strengths

At the begining of each season Obie has gone on record annoiting the next great PG only to bench them later on .

Tinsley - proclaimed a great PG by Obie, starts the season only to be becnhed and cast aside from the team
Ford - Obie excited to have him after the trade only to bench him later in favor of Jarret Jack
Ford- Starts the season again last year only to be benched again in favor of Earl Watson

Seeing a pattern here? or is it all the PG's fault, or Obie loves back up PG's

It doesnt make me "negative nick' because I point out what I dont like. I am just as big a Pacer fan as those who lwant evreything fluffy and nice

What excuse could you possibly have , if after another 4 years of losing records, consistent problems with the coach-PG relationship

The guy is a stubborn mule who has had 4 freakin years and cant even get us to sniff the playoffs. Oh but wait the "magical run" late in the season that screwed us out of a top pick will carry over this year to great success

We dont have to agree , nor does it make one person right and the other wrong

The guy is a poor coach, a stubborn ego out of control, and if it wasnt for the Pacers, probably would have never been a head coach again

naptownmenace
10-06-2010, 04:12 PM
So the Orlando Magic, with DWIGHT HOWARD presumably involved in most of those PnR's, scored 55% of the time.
And the Miamia Heat with DWAYNE WADE??
San Antonio with TIM DUNCAN???

Gee, that is a TELLING testimonial to the PnR offense. :D

http://www.bgassociates.com/images/GMDC%20TOUCHE.jpg

The Nets were the other team in the top 3. They actually scored out of the PnR at a higher clip than Orlando.

spazzxb
10-06-2010, 04:17 PM
you kinda just specifically called out uncle buck, (first sign that you just may be trolling.)
As opposed to the "let's burry are head in the sand and pretend evreything is ok"

It never ceases to amaze me how peole say basically that they cant stand a thread but take the time to comment and continue to post on it (not saying you Buck specifically)

Maybe the writer doesnt have the high credentials some of you would like, but I am sure he didnt make this up out of the clear blue sky. I suppose if nothing comes of this than it was BS, but I am saying right now if this becomes known at any point in the season, then obviously not everyone is "looking to stir the pot"

Obie does not like to utilize the pick and roll, one of DC's strengths

At the begining of each season Obie has gone on record annoiting the next great PG only to bench them later on .

Tinsley - proclaimed a great PG by Obie, starts the season only to be becnhed and cast aside from the team
Ford - Obie excited to have him after the trade only to bench him later in favor of Jarret Jack
Ford- Starts the season again last year only to be benched again in favor of Earl Watson

Seeing a pattern here? or is it all the PG's fault, or Obie loves back up PG's

It doesnt make me "negative nick' because I point out what I dont like. I am just as big a Pacer fan as those who lwant evreything fluffy and nice

What excuse could you possibly have , if after another 4 years of losing records, consistent problems with the coach-PG relationship

The guy is a stubborn mule who has had 4 freakin years and cant even get us to sniff the playoffs. Oh but wait the "magical run" late in the season that screwed us out of a top pick will carry over this year to great success

We dont have to agree , nor does it make one person right and the other wrong

The guy is a poor coach, a stubborn ego out of control, and if it wasnt for the Pacers, probably would have never been a head coach again

MagicRat
10-06-2010, 04:21 PM
Their offensive style should be similar to Orlando......

Orlando shot about 350 more 3's than the Pacers last year.

The Pacers gotta take either more of them or less of them. I can't quite figure out which one.

TooBigNdaPaint
10-06-2010, 04:22 PM
The way I look at it is that it's more important that DC gels with Granger/BRush/George/Tyler/Hibbert/Lance/AJ/Magnum this season then it is for DC to gel with a Coach and System that won't likely be here at the start of the 2011-2012 season.

I agree with this poster. DC needs to gel with his team-mates and I'm sure he will. In the process of gelling with his teammates, DC will prove or disprove JOB's motion offense once and for all. If it still DOESN'T work with all of our new athletes on the court.....it'll NEVER work short of getting MJ, Magic, and Bird to reincarnate!!!! If it does work and we make to the 2nd round of the playoffs or further, I'm sure JOB will be extended at least 2 more years whether the JOB haters like it or not.

Anyone know how I can catch the game tonite? Is it on NBA.com or somewhere else?

MLB007
10-06-2010, 04:39 PM
Bite your tongue.

I never liked the hiring of Jimmy, but I understand the reason was a coach to hold down the fort until Bird could change things. I don't care if the Pacers make the playoffs, O'Brien has no more usefulness as the Pacers coach. A new coach that can take the Pacers to the next level is what is required. A coach who is not stubborn with a terrible case of tunnel vision that his system/style is the the only way. A coach who doesn't think the ultimate game is one with a score of 135-127 with no "D" and 3 pt shooting galore.

4 years of Jimmy is more than enough, and as far as I'm concerned 1 year too many! I want to see the Pacers do well this year, but I want ownership and Bird to understand Jimmy's usefulness has passed. It's time to go forward with a different coach for the future.

And "I" think that THIS is the only year that you can fairly judge OB on.
We finally have a full stable of horses.
Lets see what he does with them.

Trader Joe
10-06-2010, 04:42 PM
I read the first post and I'm not reading anymore. Positive or negative, I want nothing to do with this thread. Only time will tell what happens.

McKeyFan
10-06-2010, 04:44 PM
I might ask this in its own thread before the season starts, but my question is:

For those of you who are concerned that Jim won't run enough pick and rolls when Collison is on the floor. Give me a % of how many PnR you want. Would 50% be enough, do you want 75%. I would just like to know, sure it is easy to say they don't run it enough, but let me know how many you want, and then maybe we'll look at it over a 5 or 10 (regular season) game period to see what % it is being run.

I don't mind Obie trying the motion offense instead of the pick and roll. But if motion, over time, doesn't appear to be working, I don't want him stubbornly refusing to try the pick and roll.

What would really goad me is if Obie is forced due to injury to use more pick and roll, it works fabulously, then he reverts to motion offense as soon as the needed personnel returns.

I'm not paranoid. Something very similar happened last year.

90'sNBARocked
10-06-2010, 05:24 PM
you kinda just specifically called out uncle buck, (first sign that you just may be trolling.)

oh Ok, trolling huh

So you glanced right over the "Not specifically you Buck" comment?

I dont really care though I have thick skin , pile it on if you like
as my old saying goes

"Mother mad'em, so Motherf'em

and no I am not talking about you sir, just in general I dont worry about what people say about me, as My God mother used to say "they talked about Jesus and he was perfect"

all good baby

90'sNBARocked
10-06-2010, 05:25 PM
I read the first post and I'm not reading anymore. Positive or negative, I want nothing to do with this thread. Only time will tell what happens.

Thanks!

BillS
10-06-2010, 05:39 PM
Orlando shot about 350 more 3's than the Pacers last year.

The Pacers gotta take either more of them or less of them. I can't quite figure out which one.

Blood on the highway.

MagicRat
10-06-2010, 05:52 PM
PGs usually take time to adjust to new systems

Well, I'll tell you what it does take. It takes a clear mind. That's what it takes.

vnzla81
10-06-2010, 06:00 PM
Well Mike Wells was talking about this on 1260 and was kind of saying that JOB needs to change the offense to fit Collison no the other way around, he also talked about Tinsley and Ford not fitting in the JOB system and that this is going be difficult with Collison because he was good when he had the ball in his hands.

cordobes
10-06-2010, 07:51 PM
Why do some of you think O'Brien will refuse to run the pick'n'roll? I have a hard time seeing a basketball coach, at any level, doing that, but anyway teams coached by O'Brien used the ballscreen game quite intensively in the past. Try to watch games of his year in Philly, for example, there was an absurd amount of high pick'n'rolls. Or just see how often Price would shoot off a ballscreen last season.

Collison is a good player, but not good enough to be used like he was with New Orleans and UCLA. That does wonders for his fantasy value, but not so much for the team record. He's no Chris Paul. Needs to be coached into making passes that set up his teammates to create shots and not only to finish, needs to share the ball more, make the entry pass to the wing and cut off the 5 for a lay-up, etc. A totally PG-centric offense like the one he ran in New Orleans needs outstanding PGs to work.

pacer4ever
10-06-2010, 07:53 PM
Well Mike Wells was talking about this on 1260 and was kind of saying that JOB needs to change the offense to fit Collison no the other way around, he also talked about Tinsley and Ford not fitting in the JOB system and that this is going be difficult with Collison because he was good when he had the ball in his hands.

so what would fit JOB's system Ricky Rubio?? Someone who doesnt like to shoot?

pwee31
10-07-2010, 12:18 AM
:onozomg:

Naptown_Seth
10-07-2010, 12:46 AM
But that's progress, isn't it?
As we said at the summer PD party, we all (including me) are fine to have JOB stay forever if he suddenly becomes a good coach. We don't want JOB the person gone, we want JOB the coach as he has been up till now gone.

I don't care if he goes pod people or Renfield, as long as he changes his style/strategy. Make proper use of the roster, make good calls and adjustments as the game goes along, show real development of young players....

...if he does that then the winning takes care of itself. Why would you fire him then???



So either he does use DC (and Roy, Josh, etc) well and the team reacts well to it and improves, allowing him to stay, or he does the same old and sees results consistent with the last few years and he's dumped (or should be).

And I don't think any of us count a backing-into-playoffs situation as "improvement" either.


Collison was not a promising PG to me at UCLA due to vision/passing, but the kid is ultra quick and has a strong dribble. This should be a no-brainer for any coach, a softball of a coaching aptitude test.

TheDon
10-07-2010, 07:59 AM
I think we are all forgetting about the most important stat of the night. 0 rebounds stolen.

Putnam
10-07-2010, 08:30 AM
I don't care if he goes pod people or Renfield, as long as he changes his style/strategy. Make proper use of the roster, make good calls and adjustments as the game goes along, show real development of young players....

...if he does that then the winning takes care of itself. Why would you fire him then???
.



This is a great post.

Even passing over the splendid literary reference, Seth has taken the proper stance toward O'Brien: Let's him prove something. This year.

There is lots to look forward to in this upcoming, but, quite frankly, I am not at all looking forward to the inevitable bad interpretations of each substitution or play call O'Brien does or doesn't do. Most of the anti-O'Brien comments are flawed, but even those that have solid evidence behind them are just unpleasant. I enjoy this board less because of the persistent sourness.


So, kudos to Seth for his "Judge O'Brien by what he does now" stance. give yourself an extra fly for dinner!

vnzla81
10-07-2010, 08:37 AM
Seth is asking for a miracle and I don't see that happening, JOB changing? No way....

Trophy
10-07-2010, 08:42 AM
I didn't find any problems last night. Darren didn't get as much time as he's going to get, but he managed to score 9 points.

BillS
10-07-2010, 08:55 AM
Well, I'll tell you what it does take. It takes a clear mind. That's what it takes.

I'm confused. For a new system, it takes a clear mind to take it or not to take it?

90'sNBARocked
10-07-2010, 03:22 PM
I'm confused. For a new system, it takes a clear mind to take it or not to take it?

I couldnt follow his posts either

MagicRat
10-07-2010, 03:33 PM
I'm confused. For a new system, it takes a clear mind to take it or not to take it?

It takes a clear mind to make it. :star:

90'sNBARocked
10-07-2010, 03:47 PM
It takes a clear mind to make it. :star:

Gotcha bro

Thanks

BillS
10-07-2010, 03:53 PM
I couldnt follow his posts either

It was runnin' all 'round my brain.

MLB007
10-07-2010, 04:22 PM
I don't mind Obie trying the motion offense instead of the pick and roll. But if motion, over time, doesn't appear to be working, I don't want him stubbornly refusing to try the pick and roll.

What would really goad me is if Obie is forced due to injury to use more pick and roll, it works fabulously, then he reverts to motion offense as soon as the needed personnel returns.

I'm not paranoid. Something very similar happened last year.

Just because something very similar happened last year doesn't mean you aren't paranoid. :devil:

MLB007
10-07-2010, 04:45 PM
http://www.bgassociates.com/images/GMDC%20TOUCHE.jpg

The Nets were the other team in the top 3. They actually scored out of the PnR at a higher clip than Orlando.

:) I actually like the PnR, just don't think it needs to be the focus of our game. It's another weapon in the arsenal, not the answer to our problems.
If you do it all the time you better have superior players because your getting awfully predictable.
If we get to where we do it well, I'll be very happy to see it often.
But we've got some talented passers on this team now, I'm really looking forward to seeing the passing offense implemented properly and how good that can be for us.
it's all good. :buddies: