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View Full Version : Do u think we still need a Center to win?



Young
08-17-2004, 01:01 AM
I do but I also think we could balance out the roster a bit. Sign a veteran SF [Michael Curry]

It sucks, I know I just talked about something similar in another thread, but there are so few true, good centers avaliable. Dampier is the best opition but I don't know that we will be able to afford him. He will likely go for the most money.

What did you guys think of Ruben BB and Smake in summer league? I didn't watch it and can't find any stats.

This is starting to bug the crap out of me, feeling the Pacers are one center away from winning it all this season, if Bender proves healthy, but so few opitions.

Damn you Scot Pollard, if he's kept he better play better but he probably wont.

Ultimate Frisbee
08-17-2004, 01:56 AM
To win in the playoffs... YES!

Otherwise, we'll be back and have another winning season with a disappointing end again.

Lord Helmet
08-17-2004, 07:10 AM
I think all we need is a scoring C.To win the playoffs.If only Jeff could shoot.Maybe that is something he has worked on in the offseason.

Peck
08-17-2004, 07:52 AM
Yes, I absolutely think the Pacers have to get a better center to be a championship team.

IMO, there is no way in hell you are going to get past Shaq & or the Pistons with Jeff Foster being your starting center.

We not only need a better scoring center we need a better low post defending center. Right now Jermaine is having to guard all of the back to the basket guys & he stated in his Q&A that it physically wears him down. If you could add a center that could guard the post that would leave Jermaine to play the more finesse player which would allow him to be more productive.

Foster is a great backup center, but as the east starts getting bigger & stronger he will be less & less affective.

Unclebuck
08-17-2004, 10:17 AM
The short answer to your question is no.

That is not to say that another big guy could not help.

But I am very happy with Jeff and J.O as the Pacers two big guys.

Might we need someone who can contribute more than Pollard, now that I would agree with.

But I don't believe for one minute that we need "someone to replace Foster" I want Foster to play at least 25 minutes every game, IMO he is that valuable.


I'll say this again for the record. If the Pacers can get Dampier without giving up Bender, I have no problem with that, howver no way would I take Dampier with anything longer than a 3 year deal. Preferrably only with a 1 or 2 year deal.

beast23
08-17-2004, 10:19 AM
Ditto Peck.

With the addition of Jackson we MAY have competed better against last yearís Pistons.

But with this Pistonís bigger and stronger, we definitely need a bigger, stronger and more defensively gifted center. I donít think our new brute needs to be a significant scoring threat, but he has to hit a vast percentage of 8-10 foot shots when left open.

Our problem is that we find ourselves in a bit of a pickle. Other than Pollard, I donít think our management really wants to give up any of our frontcourt players to bring a center back in return. The other three returning players (JO, Foster, Croshere) are the rotational frontcourt players, and we need to add depth, not just make an exchange.

So a trade that might really help would involve not trading any of those three players, or including Foster or Croshere and getting back two frontcourt players that includes a starting center.

I really donít see a helpful trade being made that does not include either Bender or Artest.

Unclebuck
08-17-2004, 11:04 AM
.

But with this Pistonís bigger and stronger, we definitely need a bigger, stronger and more defensively gifted center.



How have the Pistons gotten bigger and stronger ?

Ultimate Frisbee
08-17-2004, 11:39 AM
.

But with this Pistonís bigger and stronger, we definitely need a bigger, stronger and more defensively gifted center.



How have the Pistons gotten bigger and stronger ?


Mcdyess

ChicagoJ
08-17-2004, 11:47 AM
.

But with this Pistonís bigger and stronger, we definitely need a bigger, stronger and more defensively gifted center.



How have the Pistons gotten bigger and stronger ?


Mcdyess

Coleman.

Neither will be asked to carry a heavy load, so I don't expect injuries/ fatigue to be an issue.

blanket
08-17-2004, 12:19 PM
.

But with this Pistonís bigger and stronger, we definitely need a bigger, stronger and more defensively gifted center.



How have the Pistons gotten bigger and stronger ?


Mcdyess

Coleman.

Neither will be asked to carry a heavy load, so I don't expect injuries/ fatigue to be an issue.

They're both washed up.

Yeah, I don't see how this power roation logjam helps them, especially if they hope to give Darko some run. They've gotten older, more injury prone, left the SF position to a 3rd year rookie (good as he may be) and a 1st year rookie, and messed with their team chemistry. Maybe they're piling up big bodies to deal with Shaq, and maybe their strategy will work out in the end, but it seems like an even bigger risk than bringing in Wallace last year...

Arcadian
08-17-2004, 12:37 PM
I guess this question can go in two directions. Is Jeff big enough or is Jeff good enough.

For the first part I'd say that the center position has changed. Just the fact that Coleman and Cro are mentioned as being able to play center signifies that change. The Detroit does not play with a true center. and were able to beat a Shaq team. Today it is possible to have an elite squad playing two power forwards.

The other question is whether or not Foster is a good enough player. Well I believe he is just as good or better (and I lean to better than) the options the Wolves and Spurs have at their center spots and both are considered contenders.

So from that stand point I say yes we can win without a center. This is not to say that we couldn't use a better center or at least more depth but it is silly to write off the season because Jeff is our starting center.

Unclebuck
08-17-2004, 01:23 PM
If anyone thinks for one minute that the way to beat the Pistons is to get bigger and stronger you are mistaken.

They way to beat the Pistons is with quickness and outside shooting.

(that is not to say that Shaq would not make all the difference in the world)

But Dampier IMO will not be very effective at all against the Pistons. He can't guard Sheed or stay with Ben nearly as well as Jeff can. And Dampier's midrange and outside shooting is not any better than Jeff's.

Dampier will help against the Heat, but not against the Pistons.

Let's discuss the theory that Coleman and McDyess make the Pistons bigger and stronger. Niether will replace the Wallace's, they will replace some of Okur, Campbell, and Corliss' minutes.

If you ask me, Campbell, Okur and Corliss are bigger and stronger than Coleman and McDyess.

MagicRat
08-17-2004, 01:38 PM
Do u think we still need a Center to win?

Nah. I say we're good enough now that we can go 4 on 5 all season......:p

beast23
08-17-2004, 01:53 PM
If anyone thinks for one minute that the way to beat the Pistons is to get bigger and stronger you are mistaken.

They way to beat the Pistons is with quickness and outside shooting.

(that is not to say that Shaq would not make all the difference in the world)

But Dampier IMO will not be very effective at all against the Pistons. He can't guard Sheed or stay with Ben nearly as well as Jeff can. And Dampier's midrange and outside shooting is not any better than Jeff's.

Dampier will help against the Heat, but not against the Pistons.

Let's discuss the theory that Coleman and McDyess make the Pistons bigger and stronger. Niether will replace the Wallace's, they will replace some of Okur, Campbell, and Corliss' minutes.

If you ask me, Campbell, Okur and Corliss are bigger and stronger than Coleman and McDyess.
Actually, Williamson (6-7, 245) and Okur (6-11, 249) are gone.

McDeyess (6-9, 245) and Coleman (6-10, 270) have been picked up.

Kstat can weigh in on this, but I'd bet my tail that he's very happy about the exchange. Why? Because it provides better defenders and tougher personalities up front.

So, essentially the bench has become McDeyess, Coleman and Campbell rather than Williamson, Okur and Campbell.

From our perspective, we've traded a big body - Harrington (6-9, 250) capable of playing PF and some SF for a guard - Jax (6-8, 218) capable of playing PG and some SF.

Although not discussed earlier, we have unquestionably become smaller.

On the other hand, Detroit has acquired better experience and tougher-minded players off the bench for their frontcourt.

I believe that either one of the acquisitions plays tougher and "bigger" than Okur.

Therefore, the best thing I see that we can do is to acquire another usable big-body for the front-court.

I buy into your argument regarding quickness to some degree. But I believe that one way you can combat that is to pick up a big-bodied defender who is a capable rebounder.

We did get beat by Detroit's outside shooting and our lack of the same. But we also were beaten because we could not defend Rasheed and keep him off the glass.

We made a move to address our outside shooting. It remains to be seen whether we've helped our perimeter defense by getting Jax and Gill... but we've tried.

To date, we have not addressed the frontcourt weakness.

unstandable
08-17-2004, 02:07 PM
Williamson was big and strong for a small forward, but undersized for a power forward, which is where Brown often played him. The Pistons now can never be undersized with the Wallaces, Campbell, McDyess, Coleman, and Darko at the 4 and 5 positions. Even if Brown tries to play McDyess at center, he'll have to play one of the other guys at PF. So the Pistons have gotten bigger in that respect.

The other change is from Okur to McDyess. Okur might be taller, but he plays softer on both offense and defense. I think the Pistons have definitely gotten stronger in that respect.

Also, I loved the reference to Prince as a 3rd year rookie. Exactly how many years do you have to be in the league before you stop being a rookie?

Arcadian
08-17-2004, 02:19 PM
Both of those players are coming off of injuries. In my mind they are both question marks. It is premature to say the Pistons have improved or will be tougher.

Unclebuck
08-17-2004, 02:37 PM
If anyone thinks for one minute that the way to beat the Pistons is to get bigger and stronger you are mistaken.

They way to beat the Pistons is with quickness and outside shooting.

(that is not to say that Shaq would not make all the difference in the world)

But Dampier IMO will not be very effective at all against the Pistons. He can't guard Sheed or stay with Ben nearly as well as Jeff can. And Dampier's midrange and outside shooting is not any better than Jeff's.

Dampier will help against the Heat, but not against the Pistons.

Let's discuss the theory that Coleman and McDyess make the Pistons bigger and stronger. Niether will replace the Wallace's, they will replace some of Okur, Campbell, and Corliss' minutes.

If you ask me, Campbell, Okur and Corliss are bigger and stronger than Coleman and McDyess.
Actually, Williamson (6-7, 245) and Okur (6-11, 249) are gone.

McDeyess (6-9, 245) and Coleman (6-10, 270) have been picked up.

Kstat can weigh in on this, but I'd bet my tail that he's very happy about the exchange. Why? Because it provides better defenders and tougher personalities up front.

So, essentially the bench has become McDeyess, Coleman and Campbell rather than Williamson, Okur and Campbell.

From our perspective, we've traded a big body - Harrington (6-9, 250) capable of playing PF and some SF for a guard - Jax (6-8, 218) capable of playing PG and some SF.

Although not discussed earlier, we have unquestionably become smaller.

On the other hand, Detroit has acquired better experience and tougher-minded players off the bench for their frontcourt.

I believe that either one of the acquisitions plays tougher and "bigger" than Okur.

Therefore, the best thing I see that we can do is to acquire another usable big-body for the front-court.

I buy into your argument regarding quickness to some degree. But I believe that one way you can combat that is to pick up a big-bodied defender who is a capable rebounder.

We did get beat by Detroit's outside shooting and our lack of the same. But we also were beaten because we could not defend Rasheed and keep him off the glass.

We made a move to address our outside shooting. It remains to be seen whether we've helped our perimeter defense by getting Jax and Gill... but we've tried.

To date, we have not addressed the frontcourt weakness.




Pistons might be better, might be more experienced, certainly more athletic, I would just trying to debunk the theory that they are biger and stronger. Quicker and more athletic, YES. Bigger and stronger, NO

The reason why the distinction is worth making is because many are arguing that the Pacers need a big center to compete with the Pistons. As I have stated I disagree. Losing AL might hurt agaisnt the Pistons, no doubt about that, but the hope is that Jax will more than offset the loss of AL.

if someone wants to argue that the pacers need another athletic quick and aggressive big guy, then I would be all for that. Dampier is anything but that though.

unstandable
08-17-2004, 02:41 PM
I don't see how you can argue that. McDyess is stronger than Okur, right? And whoever plays power forward instead of Williamson will be bigger than he was (and Corliss played PF over 75% of the time).

I'm not sure Dampier is the answer against Detroit, but I do think the Pistons are bigger and stronger.

beast23
08-17-2004, 02:46 PM
Buck, if for no other reason I will take Dampier for the versatility that he would afford Carlisle.

Right now, we can go lean and quick up front. Or we can go lean and quick up front. Basically, Foster or Croshere.

We have no one who is a big, wide-bodied tough guy. Or who can at least play like one (in the case of the former Dale Davis).

In a 7-game series you need versatility. For example, the Croshere/Foster combination that was used against the Pistons. Need more scoring.... insert Croshere. Need better defense and more rebounding.... insert Foster.

My point is that, if your big guys are getting pushed off the block or out of position..... insert Dampier.

Unclebuck
08-17-2004, 02:54 PM
Buck, if for no other reason I will take Dampier for the versatility that he would afford Carlisle.

Right now, we can go lean and quick up front. Or we can go lean and quick up front. Basically, Foster or Croshere.

We have no one who is a big, wide-bodied tough guy. Or who can at least play like one (in the case of the former Dale Davis).

In a 7-game series you need versatility. For example, the Croshere/Foster combination that was used against the Pistons. Need more scoring.... insert Croshere. Need better defense and more rebounding.... insert Foster.

My point is that, if your big guys are getting pushed off the block or out of position..... insert Dampier.



I would love to have a younger Dale Davis or even a younger AD, but I don't consider Dampier like either of those players at all. Dampier is slow and does not have good lateral quickness. He won't be able to step out on pick and rolls like J.O. or Jeff can. damopier is not good in defensive transition. When I think of Dampier I see Rik Smits as far as not being able to step out away from the basket and help out on defense.


Beast, I agree with your last sentence. I am not against adding Dampier to the team, but I think many will be shocked that he is not "the answer" and certainly not the answer agaisnt the Pistons

I do bristle when I read or hear people say that Dampier or someone similar would be the final piece to a championship team

Fool
08-17-2004, 03:01 PM
The Pistons are at least deeper in the front court. Whether they will be better is up in the air (injuries/effectiveness of Mc Dyess). Corliss and Okur were pretty much non-factors in the playoffs(Okur more so than Corliss).

I think your point that the Pacers don't need a big scoring center to compete against the Pistons is true UB. Though hopefully (from my point of view) the depth at 4-5 will balance out the dependancy to rely on our 1-2-3 (3 more versus the Bucks) for so much of the scoring. A handful of additional points from the new 4s would be very helpful.

Sollozzo
08-17-2004, 03:27 PM
Sure, with Jeff Foster here, we will win 55-60 games or so, but we wont win the championship unless we get a better center starting, nothing really matters unless you win a championship, or atleast get to the finals.

No one is knocking Jeff Foster, he is just Jeff Foster. He is a solid player that is a great backup to have, he just isnt an offensive threat at all, leading to more struggle for JO. I thought JO had a tougher time scoring this year without Brad Miller downlow with him.

To people that say this team can continue to win with Jeff Foster, that's correct. We can win 55-60 games, but I don't think we will win a championship, which is all that really matters.

Championships are all that matter in professional sports.

Arcadian
08-17-2004, 03:44 PM
At some point wanting to upgrade positions becomes just fantasy basketball. Picking on Foster is unfair I could make the same statement about any Pacer.

Hey Tinsley is a good pg but we will never win a championship with him. Tins is just not championship material.

Hey JO is a great player he just isn't a franchise player who a championship team can be built around.

Last year the Pacers weakness was guard play. It amazes me that now reading the forum one would think that we lost because we didn't get enough points from the center. Our inablity to contain Rip had nothing to do with the series. The length and athleticism of Detriot's front court didn't bother us. Our backcourt's poor offensive showing affect the outcome. Our lack of 3 point threats wasn't a factor.
All we needed was a bigger center :rolleyes:

Young
08-17-2004, 03:51 PM
At some point wanting to upgrade positions becomes just fantasy basketball. Picking on Foster is unfair I could make the same statement about any Pacer.

Hey Tinsley is a good pg but we will never win a championship with him. Tins is just not championship material.

Hey JO is a great player he just isn't a franchise player who a championship team can be built around.

Last year the Pacers weakness was guard play. It amazes me that now reading the forum one would think that we lost because we didn't get enough points from the center. Our inablity to contain Rip had nothing to do with the series. The length and athleticism of Detriot's front court didn't bother us. Our backcourt's poor offensive showing affect the outcome. Our lack of 3 point threats wasn't a factor.
All we needed was a bigger center :rolleyes:





I'm not concerned with Foster's scoriong of lack of. I love his game. Heck, I wish he was just a little bigger, say David Harrison's body and he'd be perfect.

But Foster's lack of size makes it harder for him to guard big guys down low. That's why JO is worn down in the end, he has to guard the big guys.

Unclebuck
08-17-2004, 05:37 PM
Sure, with Jeff Foster here, we will win 55-60 games or so, but we wont win the championship unless we get a better center starting, nothing really matters unless you win a championship, or atleast get to the finals.

No one is knocking Jeff Foster, he is just Jeff Foster. He is a solid player that is a great backup to have, he just isnt an offensive threat at all, leading to more struggle for JO. I thought JO had a tougher time scoring this year without Brad Miller downlow with him.

To people that say this team can continue to win with Jeff Foster, that's correct. We can win 55-60 games, but I don't think we will win a championship, which is all that really matters.

Championships are all that matter in professional sports.


Besides Yao, Shaq and Brad Miller (And believe me I don't put Brad in that class) who would be a better starting center than Jeff Foster. Then ask yourself if the pacers have any chance of getting that player

Hicks
08-17-2004, 05:48 PM
Better than Jeff other than Brad, Yao, Shaq you ask?

Possibly better:

Kelvin Cato
Zyldrunas Illgauskas
Rasho Nesterovic
Emaka Okafur (who definitely will be in a year or two)
Mehmet Okur

Definitely better:

Ben Wallace
Jamal Magloire
Erik Dampier
Vlade Divac
Theo Ratliff
Raef LaFrentz
Mark Blount

SoupIsGood
08-17-2004, 06:06 PM
I don't really care if aquiring a better center would help us against the pistons or not, because there's no guarantee we will play them in the playoff's. What we should be focusing on is improving our team overall, not just a certain match-up with a team. And we are defintly weak at center.

Sollozzo
08-17-2004, 06:51 PM
Sure, with Jeff Foster here, we will win 55-60 games or so, but we wont win the championship unless we get a better center starting, nothing really matters unless you win a championship, or atleast get to the finals.

No one is knocking Jeff Foster, he is just Jeff Foster. He is a solid player that is a great backup to have, he just isnt an offensive threat at all, leading to more struggle for JO. I thought JO had a tougher time scoring this year without Brad Miller downlow with him.

To people that say this team can continue to win with Jeff Foster, that's correct. We can win 55-60 games, but I don't think we will win a championship, which is all that really matters.

Championships are all that matter in professional sports.


Besides Yao, Shaq and Brad Miller (And believe me I don't put Brad in that class) who would be a better starting center than Jeff Foster. Then ask yourself if the pacers have any chance of getting that player




Jeff Foster is in the lower half when you are ranking starting centers int he NBA. I think the Pacers could get someone better than Jeff Foster. They obviously had Brad Miller, I wont go there again. I think they should try to get Dampier, or someone else.

How could you not mention Ben Wallace there?

I think the Pacers need a better center than Jeff Foster to win the championship. We all know that with this team we have right now, we can easily win 55-60 games. I don't think that we can win the championship. I just dont think the way this team is right now, that we could get past the Heat and PIstons in the east, and beat a team like the Spurs in the finals.

We didnt win last year because our SG and Center position were horrid. If the Pacers had won a championship with a 2guard as depleted as Reggie Miller, and a bottom line center like Foster, it would have been a miracle. Now it looks like we have made an advance in improving our 2 guard position, lets just all hope SJax is starting.

A championship is all that matters. You have to ask yourself if you think this team could really go all the way and win the title. I don't think they could right now, I hope I am proving wrong. There is a major difference between 61 regular season wins and an NBA championship. A central division banner means nothing when another team from the division has an NBA championship banner.

Eindar
08-17-2004, 07:44 PM
I think we should stand pat on the Center thing, unless we can get Dampier for our part of the MLE, or unless we can get someone better than Foster w/o taking on salary or trading away Bender, JO, Artest, or Jackson.

As for the Pistons, to me, they've become even better at what they did well last year, and even worse at what they did poorly last year. They're much better defensively, now, due to Okur being a cream puff and Williamson not playing much D at all. However, those are 2 guys who can score. Williamson doesn't hurt them much, because McDyess has the same type of game, but they lose offensive punch losing Okur for Coleman.

Unclebuck
08-18-2004, 01:04 AM
Better than Jeff other than Brad, Yao, Shaq you ask?

Possibly better:

Kelvin Cato
Zyldrunas Illgauskas
Rasho Nesterovic
Emaka Okafur (who definitely will be in a year or two)
Mehmet Okur

Definitely better:

Ben Wallace
Jamal Magloire
Erik Dampier
Vlade Divac
Theo Ratliff
Raef LaFrentz
Mark Blount



No doubt Ben Wallace, Magloire, Theo are better. Z is a little better.

But how do you suggest the Pacers get any of the players on your list

Lefrentz is a complete bust, there is not a softer player in the NBA.

Mark Blount, maybe, let's see him have another good year. I would have loved to have had him and Jeff.

Divac is not anymore, he used to be better, no doubt.

I don't think Dampier is better overall, not for the Pacers. if I had to choose Jeff or Dampier for the current Pacers team, I would pick Jeff.

Rasho? Cerainly a better scorer, but he is soft, but yeh he is better

Okur? Please, he was horrible for the Pistons, he has some talent, so he might be better, we'll see.

Cato, I don't know.


Bottom line is I guess I think Jeff Foster is a lot more valuable than than most Pacers fans do. IMO he is the perfect defensive complement to J.O.


Maybe this is like Tinsley in reverse. I don't consider him a top 15 point guard in the NBA, but he fits well with the current Pacers team. Maybe Jeff is not a top 15 center in the NBA, but he is good for the pacers.

Hicks
08-18-2004, 01:06 AM
I love what Jeff Foster brings and does for the Pacers, but I'd still stick with my picks.

Anyone care to pick apart my list? It'd be interesting to see where many of us stand on this.

Unclebuck
08-18-2004, 01:12 AM
[quote=PacerFanAdam]



We didnt win last year because our SG and Center position were horrid. If the Pacers had won a championship with a 2guard as depleted as Reggie Miller, and a bottom line center like Foster, it would have been a miracle.


_____________________________________________


That is an issue I have been posting about all summer long. So may of you say Reggie stinks, Foster stinks......and many have criticized Artest and Tinsley, oh and AJ gets criticized.

My poinst is this, all those players who stink can't be that bad because the team won 61 games and got to game 6 of the ECF.


One other point, you must not have read my post in which I asked who is better than Jeff, AND how do you suggest we acquire someone better than Jeff.

I'll say it again Jeff is so undervalued by so many. In a vacuum he is not a great player, but he fits nicely with the current Pacers, and that is what is important.

Unclebuck
08-18-2004, 01:14 AM
I love what Jeff Foster brings and does for the Pacers, but I'd still stick with my picks.

Anyone care to pick apart my list? It'd be interesting to see where many of us stand on this.



Hicks, I have to ask, are you telling me you would rather have Raef instead of Jeff.

Hicks
08-18-2004, 10:23 AM
I love what Jeff Foster brings and does for the Pacers, but I'd still stick with my picks.

Anyone care to pick apart my list? It'd be interesting to see where many of us stand on this.



Hicks, I have to ask, are you telling me you would rather have Raef instead of Jeff.


My memory of him is he's a bigger center, and he blocks shots, and has 3 point range. If that's all still true, then for now I'll say maybe, but I'd have to see him play again.

Also, you asked me how we'd get any of these people. Obviously a trade, but I don't know right now who they'd want or who we'd give up.