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Erik
10-03-2010, 09:36 AM
http://www.indystar.com/article/20101003/SPORTS04/10030362/Collison-gets-settled-in
by Mike Wells


Darren Collison thrived running pick-and-rolls with David West and Emeka Okafor in New Orleans last season.

Collison was able to keep his dribble and choose to either turn the corner and attack the basket, dish off to the screener rolling to the basket or shoot a jump shot if the defender tried to go under the screen.

Collison likely won't have as many opportunities to do that as the Indiana Pacers' starting point guard because the ball won't be in his hands as long during the offensive possessions.

He has spent the first week of training camp adapting to not having the ball as much.

"I'd be lying if I said it hasn't been somewhat challenging because that's how I've been used to playing," Collison said. "But I'm getting a lot better at it. Ideally it's not what a point guard wants to go through, but it's the best thing in order to move without the ball."

Coach Jim O'Brien has constantly been talking to Collison to help him get a better understanding of the passing-game offense.

O'Brien said he plans to put Collison in a lot of pick-and-roll situations. He wants him to have about a 3.1-to-1 assist-to-turnover ratio. He was at 2.1-to-1 last season.

"I don't think he's having problems with it," O'Brien said. "I thought he was maybe a little bit predictable in his movement early in the week."

Collison has spent a lot of time talking with T.J. Ford, who is in his third season playing for O'Brien, getting a better understanding of the system.

"The biggest thing I told him to do is stay in constant communication with coach O'Brien," Ford said. "I also told him to get an understanding of the angles. You can tell he's getting more and more comfortable with things."

The last time Collison played this much without the ball in his hands was when he was at UCLA.

"The coach (Ben Howland) stressed it a lot there," Collison said. "There were some practices where we went a couple of hours trying to move without the ball. I know exactly how this story goes. You just have to move without the ball, screen for others, get yourself open and find other ways to score."

Collison has made a concerted effort to find the open man and run the offense all the way through instead of deviating from it by trying to break his man down off the dribble.

"Forcing the issue is not my style," he said. "You just have to let the offense flow. When I have my opportunity, I'll take it. I'm not a player that breaks off sets when we're trying to get something accomplished.

"When we start playing games, it's going to open up a lot more. This is practice, where we're trying to go through the system and learn the system."

Blue beats the white

The blue team, which featured Collison, Danny Granger, Brandon Rush and Roy Hibbert, easily beat the white team, which had Ford and Mike Dunleavy, 32-15 in a team scrimmage Saturday afternoon.

"That was a real butt kicking," O'Brien said. "It's not like the white team was all rookies. That wasn't the case. They had some veterans, and the blue team just wore them out."

O'Brien purposely put rookie Paul George on the blue team so that he could have an opportunity to play alongside Granger and Rush. The three didn't play much together during the first week of camp.

O'Brien gave his team the day off today.

Call Star reporter Mike Wells at (317) 444-6053.

Not a real exciting article, it's just another one of those times where I'm getting pumped about the season and possibly having our PG of the future. I saw one of the "Protector" billboards downtown with Collison on it and I realized that it still hasn't sunk in completely. I wish this season would start already!

MagicRat
10-03-2010, 10:50 AM
Jamaal eventually snapped. TJ seems to have been broken and has his mind right after a season in the box, although he may make one last run for it. Hopefully DC doesn't have a failure to communicate.......
http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/wardenjob.jpg

Kegboy
10-03-2010, 11:05 AM
:shudder:

Brad8888
10-03-2010, 11:55 AM
:mad:

The point guard madness apparently continues, and I feel sorry for Collison at this point.

What I want to know is where is the change in philosophy with respect to the pg position? I thought O'B was going to change to an offense that would better suit what Collison brings, not that Collison would spend camp adjusting his playing style to suit O'Brien while unlearning the play that brought him success last year? O'B supporters, where is the flexibility, in the player or the coach????? Sure looks like the player by a wide margin so far.

Also, why is TJ Ford mentoring and advising Collison? Could it be that Ford actually plays almost exactly as he is told, as most O'B pgs have in the past, but just chooses to drive a little too deep in the paint prior to making the decision to shoot or pass, therefore being more likely to shoot poor shots or commit turnovers?

If Ford DOESN'T play the way that O'B wants him to play, then why on God's green Earth is Ford being allowed to give substantial advice to his replacement regarding what O'Brien wants from the pg position????? Is it the philosophy of "Those that can't, teach"?????

I fervently hope that this is not true, but experience has taught me that it is far more likely to be true than not.

Peck
10-03-2010, 12:29 PM
Yea that article seemed a little on the down side. Obviously it is hard to read emotion in the written word without the context of the conversation but there was just some phrasing that led me to believe that once again we have another point guard who is going to have a hard time adjusting & a coach who is only willing to adjust so much.

MagicRat
10-03-2010, 12:36 PM
This got ignored, but we had this same stuff from the horse's mouths a couple of days ago......

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=56926

Sookie
10-03-2010, 12:39 PM
Yea, Collison's game simply does not fit Obie's system, which I've said since before we got him. He seems like he's got a high bball IQ and he's really willing, so he'll probably do as he's told, but he's not going to be comfortable with it, and not going to be nearly as effective.

Day-V
10-03-2010, 01:13 PM
Yea, Collison's game simply does not fit Obie's system, which I've said since before we got him. He seems like he's got a high bball IQ and he's really willing, so he'll probably do as he's told, but he's not going to be comfortable with it, and not going to be nearly as effective.

So in other words,

We're ****ed.

gummy
10-03-2010, 01:15 PM
Yeah...I've been uncertain about how DC and OB would mesh and I don't like the sound of taking a young point guard that was really successful playing one way and immediately trying to make him play another. But who knows, he's young and he has some prior experience with motion offense, maybe he can make it work. You can't necessarily tell anything from all the talk (especially from JOB), so we'll just have to see what happens when the rubber hits the road.

I'm cautiously optimistic that the system will be adjusted at least a little to allow DC to do his thing in certain situations. On the other hand, the good (?) news is that if DC is mediocre going into the all-star break it may finally force the coach firing hand of Mr. Bird.

pacer4ever
10-03-2010, 01:34 PM
Yea, Collison's game simply does not fit Obie's system, which I've said since before we got him. He seems like he's got a high bball IQ and he's really willing, so he'll probably do as he's told, but he's not going to be comfortable with it, and not going to be nearly as effective.

yep

O'Bird
10-03-2010, 02:18 PM
Yea that article seemed a little on the down side. Obviously it is hard to read emotion in the written word without the context of the conversation but there was just some phrasing that led me to believe that once again we have another point guard who is going to have a hard time adjusting & a coach who is only willing to adjust so much.

Why? A motion system is great for him. He's even got experience playing off the ball in a motion system in college, and he has the shooting skills to spot up anywhere in the front court, and the ability to take a pass and shoot off the dribble going either left or right. He's got plenty of quicks to move without the ball.

Are people really arguing that he should dominate the ball and the team should run all the offense through him? Coach noted his A/T ratio last year, which was not great (40th among rotation points). More fundamentally, you take away from the skills of a Roy Hibbert, a Danny Granger, and especially, if I may say so, a Josh McRoberts, if you do that.

What they're building is a team where you can run offense through multiple players. To me, that's exciting, a more modern, team-oriented approach. Prime example in Thursday's practice film, where Hibbert hits him with a pass out of the low post as he flashes into the lane, for a layup. With his speed and quicks, he'll break free of his man a lot, and guys who can deliver the ball, like Roy and Josh, can get DC scoring opportunities because he can move without the ball. He'll return the favor, since they're looking to get him pick and roll opportunities.

_________

Sookie
10-03-2010, 02:27 PM
I think that's a great argument, really. Why would we run the offense through Collison?

Collison's game may not fit this sytem, but he hasn't proven that he is a reason to change it. However, running more PnRs for him will be positive for the entire team. So that's something JOB should consider. (And I think he will, personall)

Truthfully I think the only reason we should change the offense is if it'll benefit Hibbert and Granger (unless Collison proves that he is an elite PG). That doesn't mean, however, that Collison won't be uncomfortable. And that his skills wouldn't be better used in a different system.

Anthem
10-03-2010, 02:49 PM
Could it be that Ford actually plays almost exactly as he is told, as most O'B pgs have in the past, but just chooses to drive a little too deep in the paint prior to making the decision to shoot or pass, therefore being more likely to shoot poor shots or commit turnovers?
Ford's style of play has never gotten him into trouble with Obie. It's his shooting percentage from deep that's led to his benchings.

MLB007
10-03-2010, 02:57 PM
http://www.indystar.com/article/20101003/SPORTS04/10030362/Collison-gets-settled-in
by Mike Wells



Not a real exciting article, it's just another one of those times where I'm getting pumped about the season and possibly having our PG of the future. I saw one of the "Protector" billboards downtown with Collison on it and I realized that it still hasn't sunk in completely. I wish this season would start already!

O'Brien purposely put rookie Paul George on the blue team so that he could have an opportunity to play alongside Granger and Rush. The three didn't play much together during the first week of camp.


I find that VERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
exciting. :dance:

MLB007
10-03-2010, 02:58 PM
Jamaal eventually snapped. TJ seems to be broken and have his mind right after a season in the box, although he may make one last run for it. Hopefully DC doesn't have a failure to communicate.......
http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/wardenjob.jpg

LOL, that's VERY good!

But not "last run for it", rather "he might go rabbit". ;)

MLB007
10-03-2010, 03:01 PM
:mad:

The point guard madness apparently continues, and I feel sorry for Collison at this point.

What I want to know is where is the change in philosophy with respect to the pg position? I thought O'B was going to change to an offense that would better suit what Collison brings, not that Collison would spend camp adjusting his playing style to suit O'Brien while unlearning the play that brought him success last year? O'B supporters, where is the flexibility, in the player or the coach????? Sure looks like the player by a wide margin so far.

Also, why is TJ Ford mentoring and advising Collison? Could it be that Ford actually plays almost exactly as he is told, as most O'B pgs have in the past, but just chooses to drive a little too deep in the paint prior to making the decision to shoot or pass, therefore being more likely to shoot poor shots or commit turnovers?

If Ford DOESN'T play the way that O'B wants him to play, then why on God's green Earth is Ford being allowed to give substantial advice to his replacement regarding what O'Brien wants from the pg position????? Is it the philosophy of "Those that can't, teach"?????

I fervently hope that this is not true, but experience has taught me that it is far more likely to be true than not.

Not too paranoid......
HOw did you miss this part of the article?
"Collison has made a concerted effort to find the open man and run the offense all the way through instead of deviating from it by trying to break his man down off the dribble.

"Forcing the issue is not my style," he said. "You just have to let the offense flow. When I have my opportunity, I'll take it. I'm not a player that breaks off sets when we're trying to get something accomplished.

"When we start playing games, it's going to open up a lot more. This is practice, where we're trying to go through the system and learn the system."


Try actually seeing the words that are on the page :censored:

MLB007
10-03-2010, 03:03 PM
So in other words,

We're ****ed.

OR
You guys wouldn't know offensive philosophy from your a**.

THAT is about 100 times more likely. ;)

MLB007
10-03-2010, 03:12 PM
Why? A motion system is great for him. He's even got experience playing off the ball in a motion system in college, and he has the shooting skills to spot up anywhere in the front court, and the ability to take a pass and shoot off the dribble going either left or right. He's got plenty of quicks to move without the ball.

Are people really arguing that he should dominate the ball and the team should run all the offense through him? Coach noted his A/T ratio last year, which was not great (40th among rotation points). More fundamentally, you take away from the skills of a Roy Hibbert, a Danny Granger, and especially, if I may say so, a Josh McRoberts, if you do that.

What they're building is a team where you can run offense through multiple players. To me, that's exciting, a more modern, team-oriented approach. Prime example in Thursday's practice film, where Hibbert hits him with a pass out of the low post as he flashes into the lane, for a layup. With his speed and quicks, he'll break free of his man a lot, and guys who can deliver the ball, like Roy and Josh, can get DC scoring opportunities because he can move without the ball. He'll return the favor, since they're looking to get him pick and roll opportunities.

_________

The forest, the forest, this man can see the forest!! :)

As they BOTH said, there will be LOTS of opportunities for DC to pick and roll. There will be PLENTY of times where the clock is down and he has to take his man off the dribble.
As DC CLEARLY SAID, this is practice, where he is learning this "new" system (but renewal for him after UCLA).
If this is half the game (in terms of posessions) and it's different than what he's played in the league (it is) then we SHOULD be spending all the time learning what needs to become natural.
When the ball is up and the lights are on, it has to all be natural or it isn't going to work.
Once he learns (agian) this side of the offensive philosophy, and it becomes natural to him, THEN it's just another weapon in his arsenal, and he can show a complete game to any opposition defense.
That makes him INFINITELY more dangerous than a guy that only makes something happen with the ball in his hands.

I don't know how many of you are noticing, but we've got some excellent passers on this team. Roy and McBob are flat out excellent, and certainly DC is as well. DC will see TONS of layups if he learns to move like MDun without the ball.
And put up big numbers WITHOUT having 100% of the ball pressure on HIM every game.
It's a win win.

Peck
10-03-2010, 03:43 PM
Why? A motion system is great for him. He's even got experience playing off the ball in a motion system in college, and he has the shooting skills to spot up anywhere in the front court, and the ability to take a pass and shoot off the dribble going either left or right. He's got plenty of quicks to move without the ball.

Are people really arguing that he should dominate the ball and the team should run all the offense through him? Coach noted his A/T ratio last year, which was not great (40th among rotation points). More fundamentally, you take away from the skills of a Roy Hibbert, a Danny Granger, and especially, if I may say so, a Josh McRoberts, if you do that.

What they're building is a team where you can run offense through multiple players. To me, that's exciting, a more modern, team-oriented approach. Prime example in Thursday's practice film, where Hibbert hits him with a pass out of the low post as he flashes into the lane, for a layup. With his speed and quicks, he'll break free of his man a lot, and guys who can deliver the ball, like Roy and Josh, can get DC scoring opportunities because he can move without the ball. He'll return the favor, since they're looking to get him pick and roll opportunities.

_________

Perhaps in your rush to jump on the potential grenade lobbed at Jim you failed to notice a couple of things.

1. I made a point of saying it is hard to read emotion in the written word when penned by a third party.

2. I even gave O'Brien credit by saying he was willing to adjust. Now I certainly added the caveat that he would only adjust so much but hey at least I didn't say it was all on him.

As to why I feel this way after reading this article, well for starters this statement here bothers me quite a bit.

"I'd be lying if I said it hasn't been somewhat challenging because that's how I've been used to playing," Collison said. "But I'm getting a lot better at it. Ideally it's not what a point guard wants to go through, but it's the best thing in order to move without the ball."

Now you can interpret that in several ways but my first take on it is that it is not his preferred style of play (playing without the ball) as it was T.J.'s & as it was Jamaal's before him. This is one of the reasons why I have always said O'Brien uses a modified version of Paul Westheads offense, where the point guard is really not a point guard & generally those coach's don't end up getting along with their p.g. very well.

O'Bird
10-04-2010, 12:13 AM
Perhaps in your rush to jump on the potential grenade lobbed at Jim you failed to notice a couple of things.

It wouldn't be the first time.


1. I made a point of saying it is hard to read emotion in the written word when penned by a third party.

Good caveat. People also misquote and mis-speak.


2. I even gave O'Brien credit by saying he was willing to adjust. Now I certainly added the caveat that he would only adjust so much but hey at least I didn't say it was all on him.

I did note that. One thing missing from the discussion is that a coach is adapting his players to one another, so Collison's ability to play pick and roll, for example, is not the only factor in whether they play it, since he's got to work with a big who can dance with him. (Maybe more to the point, given what the training camp film shows, is whether he's going to play it when a pick is presented...).


This is one of the reasons why I have always said O'Brien uses a modified version of Paul Westheads offense, where the point guard is really not a point guard & generally those coach's don't end up getting along with their p.g. very well.

I suggest checking what position the coach played as a player. The ones who have friction with point guards are often former point guards.

.

Peck
10-04-2010, 02:28 AM
It wouldn't be the first time.



Good caveat. People also misquote and mis-speak.



I did note that. One thing missing from the discussion is that a coach is adapting his players to one another, so Collison's ability to play pick and roll, for example, is not the only factor in whether they play it, since he's got to work with a big who can dance with him. (Maybe more to the point, given what the training camp film shows, is whether he's going to play it when a pick is presented...).



I suggest checking what position the coach played as a player. The ones who have friction with point guards are often former point guards.
.

Oh indeed, Larry Brown was notoriously hard on p.g.'s

Day-V
10-04-2010, 02:40 AM
While he wasn't a true full-time PG, I believe Jalen had some issues with Isiah as well, correct?

Peck
10-04-2010, 02:53 AM
While he wasn't a true full-time PG, I believe Jalen had some issues with Isiah as well, correct?

For certain, also I was there the night that Travis Best & Isiah got into it as well.

Former p.g.'s are usually pretty tough on p.g.'s that play for them.

imawhat
10-04-2010, 03:00 AM
I think you can expand it by saying a lot of coaches are tough on their point guards.

I think of Jerry Sloan (G/F), Phil Jackson (F), Nate McMillan (GF) as being particularly picky with their PGs.

Unclebuck
10-04-2010, 09:28 AM
I don't think anyone suggested the whole offense would be changed to best accomadate Collison. The pacers will still run the passing game with a lot of Hibbert at the jhogh post and the point guard giving the ball up early. But they will also run more pick and roll because Collison is here and will also post up Roy more in the low post than they have in the past. But it takes time to put in your entire offense and yes Collison needs to get acclimated to playing without the ball because that is what he will be asked to do more than he did last season. But it sounds like he played without the ball a lot at UCLA.

Unclebuck
10-04-2010, 09:34 AM
:mad:

The point guard madness apparently continues, and I feel sorry for Collison at this point.

What I want to know is where is the change in philosophy with respect to the pg position? I thought O'B was going to change to an offense that would better suit what Collison brings, not that Collison would spend camp adjusting his playing style to suit O'Brien while unlearning the play that brought him success last year? O'B supporters, where is the flexibility, in the player or the coach????? Sure looks like the player by a wide margin so far.



Can't there be a middle ground, why does it have to be all or nothing. I don't believe anyone said the entire offense would change. They will run more pick and rolls - that I guarantee. How much more, not sure, but more.



Also, why is TJ Ford mentoring and advising Collison? Could it be that Ford actually plays almost exactly as he is told, as most O'B pgs have in the past, but just chooses to drive a little too deep in the paint prior to making the decision to shoot or pass, therefore being more likely to shoot poor shots or commit turnovers?

If Ford DOESN'T play the way that O'B wants him to play, then why on God's green Earth is Ford being allowed to give substantial advice to his replacement regarding what O'Brien wants from the pg position????? Is it the philosophy of "Those that can't, teach"?????



Makes sense that point guards will talk to each other

Brad8888
10-04-2010, 09:47 AM
Oh indeed, Larry Brown was notoriously hard on p.g.'s

Isiah Thomas was despised by his pg's. ;)

nerveghost
10-04-2010, 09:55 AM
Ford's style of play has never gotten him into trouble with Obie. It's his shooting percentage from deep that's led to his benchings.

i thought it was his tendency to pound the ball and not keep it moving on offence.

Trader Joe
10-04-2010, 10:35 AM
Look, Obie has to sink or swim this season, if this offense blows (still a possibility) it's not like Collison is going to forget how to run the PnR when a new coach shows up.

BillS
10-04-2010, 10:48 AM
i thought it was his tendency to pound the ball and not keep it moving on offence.

I'd have hoped it was his poor decision-making and inability to adjust to what happened once a play was started.

Peck
10-04-2010, 11:39 AM
I'd have hoped it was his poor decision-making and inability to adjust to what happened once a play was started.

BillS it may not even be that. Frankly T.J. is a p.g. who needs to have the ball to be effective (obviously it is up to opinion and debate as to how effective he is) & O'Brien's offense is built upon ball movement.

Neither is wrong IMO.

Some point guards from a very young age are taught that the ball is in their hands and that they are to set up other players & only look to score for themselves when the opprotunity arises. In fact it is kind of an unspoken tradeoff. In other words if you look for others first & not wory so much about your own scoring we will let you take car of the rock.

Jim's system pretty much has the p.g. being one of 5 scoring options and truely goes back to the old old school of really just having two guards.

Both style's have shown they can win and both styles have shown they can lose but I really can't think of many times that the two have meshed well together.

So I think everybody blaming T.J. not adapting to me would be like everybody blaming Dwight Howard for not being a stretch four.

Brad8888
10-04-2010, 12:08 PM
Not too paranoid......
HOw did you miss this part of the article?
"Collison has made a concerted effort to find the open man and run the offense all the way through instead of deviating from it by trying to break his man down off the dribble.

"Forcing the issue is not my style," he said. "You just have to let the offense flow. When I have my opportunity, I'll take it. I'm not a player that breaks off sets when we're trying to get something accomplished.

"When we start playing games, it's going to open up a lot more. This is practice, where we're trying to go through the system and learn the system."


Try actually seeing the words that are on the page :censored:

MLB007, sorry that my opinion has offended you.

However, I saw those words that were on the page. :)


Collison said "When we start playing games, it's going to open up a lot more. This is practice, where we're trying to go through the system and learn the system."

I didn't miss the parts you are choosing to focus on, any more than you missed the parts I am choosing to focus on. For once, I chose to not post a huge, detailed explanation of my thoughts while expressing my overall angst regarding the position of pg and what I believe to be an indication of a continuation of what we have seen in the past despite team statements to the contrary. I see that I was wrong for not having fully developed my line of reasoning, and, should you choose to read further, I will attempt to do so, even with the assumption that we likely will not be in agreement after you do so, meaning that my efforts at complete expression in an effort to bridge this gap will have been wasted.

So, here goes.

Of all things, you chose to indicate hyperbole regarding the same statement from Collison that I initially chose to quote for this post. What in the world is going on here, agreement? Obviously not.

No, what is going on here is that I choose to look at the trees individually in an attempt to more thoroughly understand the makeup of the complex forest that our Pacers are, as opposed to accepting what we are being told by glossing over things, and making an attempt to predict what an outcome might be given additional factors to consider as they are introduced through articles, depsite most such attempts being folly due to the lack of accurate and complete data to base analysis on because of being a fan as opposed to being employed by the franchise itself.

Am I overthinking this? Probably. Did I overlook what you believe I did? Not at all. I simply have learned to generally (but not entirely in this case btw, as you will see shortly) dismiss those things that our coach says and watch what actually happens instead.

Notice that O'Brien states, in the portion that you believe I missed,
"Collison has made a concerted effort to find the open man and run the offense all the way through instead of deviating from it by trying to break his man down off the dribble.

In the related contrasting Collison statement that I first quoted for this post, I believe that Collison is saying that he is practicing this way to learn the system, but that during games "things will open up more" for him, enabling him to make his own decisions and not "force the issue" by following the rules of the offense regarding always attacking and thereby call his own number more frequently, just as his advisor TJ Ford and other pgs to a lesser extent have before during the O'B tenure. Ultimately, isn't that what makes TJ reviled around here? Why have him advising Collison to do the same thing, especially with Collison already having a turnover issue last year?

From a financial perspective, our pgs deviation from the offense is made even more likely because the pgs understand that this offense, as it has been designed, provides them with fewer assist possibilities due to the fact that players are shooting lower percentage shots off of kickouts, or passes will generally go to guys who will be then driving for scores and taking away assists due to not being in positions where catch and shoots happen very much. For pgs, assists are a primary way that these guys earn bigger money for their careers, and that opportunity is reduced under the O'B way. In the O'B system, these guys must call their own numbers as shot creators as often as they feel they can get away with in order to increase scoring statistics, or take more chances passing to players that might make shots that create assists for them despite passing lanes not always being available, leading to more turnovers.

Who knows, though. Maybe Collison has better court vision and will leap into the air and spin less wildly than those before him due to not forcing the action as much, and when he does, maybe he will find players who actually know how to run a passing based motion offense (like the two Duke players (not counting Dahntay), and the one Georgetown player who will apparently be on the floor together frequently know how to play due to being trained for it in college and hopefully have long memories) despite the offense not being initiated very often from the pg position in the most traditional sense.

Uncle Buck, sorry about my lack of "middle ground".

:hmm: Perhaps I should just take the overall tack that Seth has over the off season and pretty much just not say anything until games start to be played and the anti O'B position becomes more popular once more due to frustration borne of the lack of success that I fear is still coming for this year, and let Peck, Bball, Anthem, et al shoulder the burden of being outspoken with respect to criticism of O'Brien, while letting the views of you, Dunning-Kruger man and resident expert of both the past Celtics and present Pacers franchises O'Bird, and the other O'Brien supporters gain more traction in the collective conscience of Pacers Digest in the interim. I am considering acting on this possibility, and I am sure that there are others besides you who would welcome a respite from my negativity. I am undecided about this at the moment, though.

:( In conclusion, as a Pacer fan first and foremost, I want the franchise to succeed, and I so want to be wrong about feeling this negativity, and want the product on the floor to be different than we have seen since Carlisle left, as I have stated elsewhere. I cannot wait to be proven wrong about O'Brien, either, because for the franchise to succeed, I feel that O'Brien either has to truly be far more flexible than he has been in the past or he simply must go, and I fear that the latter of those two is likely the only way the changes required to maximize the success of the franchise will be allowed to occur. For O'Brien to stay at the same time the franchise succeeds, I would need to be wrong about a lot of my assumptions about the meanings behind what we are both seeing and being told, and again, as a Pacer fan, I truly want to be wrong. Feeling this way is not fun when the Pacers are a primary means of escaping reality and releasing stress for me.

If you made it this far, thank you for caring enough to read this tome. :(

BillS
10-04-2010, 01:24 PM
BillS it may not even be that. Frankly T.J. is a p.g. who needs to have the ball to be effective (obviously it is up to opinion and debate as to how effective he is) & O'Brien's offense is built upon ball movement.

Neither is wrong IMO.

Some point guards from a very young age are taught that the ball is in their hands and that they are to set up other players & only look to score for themselves when the opprotunity arises. In fact it is kind of an unspoken tradeoff. In other words if you look for others first & not wory so much about your own scoring we will let you take car of the rock.

Jim's system pretty much has the p.g. being one of 5 scoring options and truely goes back to the old old school of really just having two guards.

Both style's have shown they can win and both styles have shown they can lose but I really can't think of many times that the two have meshed well together.

So I think everybody blaming T.J. not adapting to me would be like everybody blaming Dwight Howard for not being a stretch four.

I'm not quite sure we're disagreeing here.

The problem for me was not how aggressive TJ was, necessarily. It wasn't about not adapting to Jim, either. It was how he could not adapt to what happened during the play on the floor once he made a decision on what to do. That manifested as dribbling into a brick wall and not getting the ball back out of trouble, among other things.

While I prefer a pass-first PG, I'll only get on a ball-dominant PG if he holds the ball and does absolutely nothing with it until the last second (I think anyone who knows me knows who I mean...)

It is why I would hope that TJ was not benched due to not keeping the ball moving as such, but for not being able to move the ball when he himself got into trouble. And, as part of that, for attempting shots that were bad decisions rather than passing off or making a better selection.

naptownmenace
10-05-2010, 10:25 AM
Jamaal eventually snapped. TJ seems to have been broken and has his mind right after a season in the box, although he may make one last run for it. Hopefully DC doesn't have a failure to communicate.......
http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/wardenjob.jpg

So awesome! This is my favorite movie quote of all-time.