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View Full Version : Interesting words regarding McRoberts from JOB



luis3ep
10-01-2010, 04:07 PM
From @mg_indy

"4 those still skeptical about Josh starting, JOB said after practice that if we had a game 2nite, JMac wouldn't only start- but play 36 min."



All i have to say about that is WOO fu***** HOO. It seems to me that all of PD for the most part is against McRoberts getting quality playing time. I still don't understand why people feel strongly about this.. He's an amazing talent who's extremely athletic for his size, who unfortunately hadn't received much playing time due to JOB being stubborn and using his man-crush Murphy alot. While Murph was draining 3's, JMAC was quietly waiting for his turn, and if you noticed at the end of last season, he got alot more playing time, which showed me his time is coming. He put on muscle this summer i believe, which will make him more of a true PF. he'll be getting boards while stretching the floor and making the occasional 3 pointer. Do i think he's the future PF of the Pacers for many years to come? i don't know actually, he could be... if he's as good as i hear/think he'll be this season, him and Hansbrough could be a great combo of PF's for the pacers... guys who just wanna win. We are stacked in talent, all we need is more experience, more confidence and more support from the fans, because i seriously believe they feed off the fans, and how are they gonna use Conseco as home advantage when theres only 11,000 or whatever at the games..seriously.. they need us more than ever and i will be supporting my favorite team every game because i'm a die hard pacers fan and i hope everyone here can make it to a couple games if you don't have season tix or in area 55.

- season ticket holder/die hard pacers fan

imawhat
10-01-2010, 04:09 PM
April Fool's is exactly six months away.

Hicks
10-01-2010, 04:09 PM
You can edit your post if you want to fix that.

Speed
10-01-2010, 04:10 PM
I'll say this now, I'm not going to allow fans pulling too far the other way on him to make me be contrarian sp?. It happened with Gordon Hayward, I'm not to allow it again.

I Love P
10-01-2010, 04:12 PM
I'm all for McRoberts getting a lot of PT and possibily starting. I thought last year when he came in nothing but good things happened.

sportfireman
10-01-2010, 04:17 PM
Honestly this doesn't surprise me....Josh is the only other big man taking and making 3's. Oh and Jim's opinion on a player DOES NOT make them a good player. They just FIT his system. Let's a see a few of Jim's PF's A. Walker, W. McCarthy, T. Murphy...... now J. McRoberts. They can shoot the 3 so in Jim's eyes they're GGRRRREEEAAATTTT!!!!! I DONT CARE what Jim thinks.

HeliumFear
10-01-2010, 04:20 PM
Seems like Josh will become the worst starting PF in the NBA. Yippee.

Brad8888
10-01-2010, 04:21 PM
I might actually go to a few games again if McRoberts is given his chance to make an impact on the floor playing the way he is capable of playing. That would boost the team energy and performance as much as anything else we have been led to believe is going to happen in my opinion.

Kegboy
10-01-2010, 04:22 PM
It seems to me that all of PD for the most part is against McRoberts getting quality playing time.

:eyebrow2:

Obviously you've been reading a different board than me the last two years.

naptownmenace
10-01-2010, 04:24 PM
Honestly this doesn't surprise me....Josh is the only other big man taking and making 3's. Oh and Jim's opinion on a player DOES NOT make them a good player. They just FIT his system. Let's a see a few of Jim's PF's A. Walker, W. McCarthy, T. Murphy...... now J. McRoberts. They can shoot the 3 so in Jim's eyes they're GGRRRREEEAAATTTT!!!!! I DONT CARE what Jim thinks.

:laugh:

That pretty much sums up what I took from Jimmy's quote.

CableKC
10-01-2010, 04:29 PM
ok...since no one will say it, my initial thought is that what JO'B says now is "irrelevant" until I actually see McRoberts play 36 minutes and is starting.

Unclebuck
10-01-2010, 04:31 PM
No comment

daschysta
10-01-2010, 04:37 PM
Honestly this doesn't surprise me....Josh is the only other big man taking and making 3's. Oh and Jim's opinion on a player DOES NOT make them a good player. They just FIT his system. Let's a see a few of Jim's PF's A. Walker, W. McCarthy, T. Murphy...... now J. McRoberts. They can shoot the 3 so in Jim's eyes they're GGRRRREEEAAATTTT!!!!! I DONT CARE what Jim thinks.

Fans didn't fall in love with josh because of the 3, if he can ever be nearly as good as murphy shooting the 3 ball he will be a great player, because the fans know that he can positively impact the game in other areas where murphy could not or would not do.

We should be happy with this because there is one more guy that he could have tried to plug into our pf spot, and can shoot the three. Yeah. He could have gone with posey. Lets just be thankful i t doesn't seem like he will.

imawhat
10-01-2010, 04:38 PM
No comment


is a comment

vnzla81
10-01-2010, 04:42 PM
I believe it when I see it

pacers74
10-01-2010, 04:52 PM
He has been running with the "blue team" which loooks like it is the starters right now. So that does lead me to believe that if the season started today, Josh would start and significant minutes.

Does that mean he wil start on Oct 27th? Only time will tell. Does this mean he is playing that much better than Tyler? There is still over 3 weeks left until the first "real" game. Tyler will have a chance to win the starting spot during the rest of camp and during preseason games.

Will I be mad if Josh starts? No, not at all. The average fan might be, but I and many of us here know Josh has a ton of potential and given playing time I think he will live up to it. I won't be mad if Josh, or Tyler starts. Please just not Jeff. I like Jeff, I just want someone who can score starting.

By the way, I had an average fan come up to me and say that they heard Josh might start and that if Josh starts we must really suck at PF. He also thought Josh had been cut from 3 teams before he got here. I told him Josh has great potential and hasn't been cut before.

OakMoses
10-01-2010, 04:59 PM
To me, this tells me more about where Hansbrough is at than anything else.

I like Josh. I'm glad to see him get an opportunity, and I hope it's because he's played well. When he says Josh would play 36 minutes what I here is "We don't have anybody else who's ready to be out there right now."

odeez
10-01-2010, 05:08 PM
Let him start... I would support that, because we don't have a lot of other options currently. I would imagine Tyler is going to need more time to get fully back in the mix of things. This will be Mcbob's chance to really show us what he can do. I have my doubts, but I'm for him getting a chance to start.

QuickRelease
10-01-2010, 05:30 PM
Seems like Josh will become the worst starting PF in the NBA. Yippee.Is it just possible to believe that Josh has actually grown as a player, and seeing the opportunity at hand, put in mad work to seize it?

docpaul
10-01-2010, 05:45 PM
An interview clip on 1070 this afternoon had JOB saying that McRoberts has been the top performer on the entire roster during training so far this week... so I think it's likely more than him being the only option available... happy for the kid and the team... could we possibly have some young depth in the making?

Peck
10-01-2010, 05:58 PM
No comment

Not to bad for a guy who wouldn't be in the NBA in, what was it again oh yea 2 years.:)

Pacers#1Fan
10-01-2010, 06:11 PM
I'm not going to bash it 'til I actually see it, though I can't deny being skeptical.

Justin Tyme
10-01-2010, 06:23 PM
To me, this tells me more about where Hansbrough is at than anything else.

I like Josh. I'm glad to see him get an opportunity, and I hope it's because he's played well. When he says Josh would play 36 minutes what I here is "We don't have anybody else who's ready to be out there right now."


Great post! Never thought of it like that. Seems very pausible. What you are saying is that the Pacers still don't have their starting PF of the future, which I have never bought into with all the McBob and Hans hype. My guess Bird is still looking, and I'm hoping towards Jason Thompson.

beezer615
10-01-2010, 06:25 PM
I find it disconcerting that Hansbrough hasn't shown up much in the practice videos online. Anybody else see a trend of no news/video on the Hans?

BlueNGold
10-01-2010, 06:26 PM
ok...since no one will say it, my initial thought is that what JO'B says now is "irrelevant" until I actually see McRoberts play 36 minutes and is starting.

JOb was just getting tired of explaining why he's not playing McRoberts...and he got a little testy.

The NBA is a business and sometimes the message needs to be framed for the fans. The reality is, if he played McRoberts, fans would not want to see Murphy on the floor. If Murphy sits on the bench, his value plummets...and that's a huge contract to sit on the bench.

Now that Murph's been traded and more of the bloated contracts get moved, things will start to make more sense...

Justin Tyme
10-01-2010, 06:30 PM
I'm not going to bash it 'til I actually see it, though I can't deny being skeptical.


My exact sentiments.

I hope the McBob goes from trade fodder throw in to at least good valued rotational 8-9 player, but I won't bet the family farm on it.

Sookie
10-01-2010, 06:30 PM
I find it disconcerting that Hansbrough hasn't shown up much in the practice videos online. Anybody else see a trend of no news/video on the Hans?

I think, although him and AJ are cleared to play, they need to be slowly worked back into the flow of things. That's all. I saw him (Hans) a few times.

BlueNGold
10-01-2010, 06:32 PM
An interview clip on 1070 this afternoon had JOB saying that McRoberts has been the top performer on the entire roster during training so far this week... so I think it's likely more than him being the only option available... happy for the kid and the team... could we possibly have some young depth in the making?

This is nothing new. McRoberts can defend just fine at the NBA level and needs experience on the offensive end. He's young and the Pacers just had him in the oven until the contracts got moved. Is he the answer at PF? Maybe not. However, he's a good backup big man at the 4 or 5.

What's going on? I think McBob is starting because the Pacers can rely on him being healthy in comparison to the other options. If Hans shows some durability, the starting lineup could change...but until that happens McBob will have it locked down. Will he be the weak link on the starting lineup? Maybe...but not that weak...

avoidingtheclowns
10-01-2010, 06:33 PM
To me, this tells me more about where Hansbrough is at than anything else.

I like Josh. I'm glad to see him get an opportunity, and I hope it's because he's played well. When he says Josh would play 36 minutes what I here is "We don't have anybody else who's ready to be out there right now."

Did you listen to the audio clip or are you just going by the initial tweet? Here is what was said (you can find audio here (http://www.1070thefan.com/pacers/) called "JOB on the power forward position (10-1-10)"). Jim speaks while someone who is probably Bruno does his best impression of Hands,bro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBJm-UorQu0).


JOB: If we were playing a game tonight, Josh McRoberts would be at the power forward for 36 minutes.

(Probably Bruno): Wow.

JOB: He would... he is having that type of impact. There's nothing... I said to him yesterday I thought through the first days he was the the best player on the court. And he's not having to do that by scoring the most. His communication on defense is great, his understanding of the game is great, he is trying to rebound every shot, he doesn't turn the ball over at all and he runs the court. And I... we keep hustle stats - which are deflections, charges, offensive rebounds - and in the first three days, not counting today, Paul George had 36, Josh had 31 and nobody else had over 15.

(Probably Bruno): Wow.

JOB: So that translates into extra possessions and if... I don't care if you're a rookie or what position you play, if those kind of stats... they don't lie. If you're being active like that, you're getting your hands on balls, you're stepping up and taking charges then you need to be on the basketball court. He's doing that at an extremely high level to the point that, I don't know... right now you've got Sol who can play two positions. Sol's doing a good job he can back up two positions and right now Jeff has to continue to prove that he can stay healthy.

Speed
10-01-2010, 06:38 PM
Not positive, but I swear that sounds like Bruno's voice saying wow, not that is matters.

avoidingtheclowns
10-01-2010, 06:40 PM
Not positive, but I swear that sounds like Bruno's voice saying wow, not that is matters.

Actually now that you say that, and I listen again, I think you might be right. I just assumed it was Grady since he posted the audio but it seems too high-pitched to be MG. I'll fix accordingly.

Speed
10-01-2010, 06:41 PM
thanks for transcribing that, avoidingtheclowns. If this is true then Josh and Paul should play quite a bit, not much would make me happier than getting young guys minutes especially if they are ready.

Sookie
10-01-2010, 06:45 PM
Glad to hear that about PG too. I really think that kid has so much potential, on both sides of the court. (and sheesh if he can play at the SG position..)

pacers74
10-01-2010, 06:46 PM
Great for Josh, not great for Magnum, I guess. JOB said Sol can play 2 positions. That doesn't sound like he is going to cut him. Someone has to go, who is it? Sol, Magnum, TJ, or Lance.

Pacers#1Fan
10-01-2010, 06:49 PM
My exact sentiments.

I hope the McBob goes from trade fodder throw in to at least good valued rotational 8-9 player, but I won't bet the family farm on it.

Personally, at this point I see arguing and complaining about JOB's coaching style and philosophy as pointless as a tuna scented douche. You can do it as much as you want but it's not going to change/improve the situation.

Peck
10-01-2010, 07:27 PM
I don't believe that Josh being elevated to the #1 spot says anything about Tyler. I think it just simply says that Josh has busted his @ss to improve his game and has developed chemistry with the other players.

Doesn't mean that Tyler won't get it eventually but for now I'm not going to put down Josh just so I don't feel deflated about Tyler.

Either way unless I see Posey or Granger playing major min. at the 4 this year I can't complain as I feel we already have a HUGE upgrade at the position.

sportfireman
10-01-2010, 07:28 PM
Fans didn't fall in love with josh because of the 3, if he can ever be nearly as good as murphy shooting the 3 ball he will be a great player, because the fans know that he can positively impact the game in other areas where murphy could not or would not do.

We should be happy with this because there is one more guy that he could have tried to plug into our pf spot, and can shoot the three. Yeah. He could have gone with posey. Lets just be thankful i t doesn't seem like he will.

I just feel a "tradional PF" is better for this team. Someone who will rebound and play physical inside. An enforcer type....... Dale Davis type PF is what I would prefer. Call me old school but 3's should be left up to the SF, SG, and PG. IMO. Not saying Josh is a bad player, I don't dislike Josh, he has understood what it takes to get playing time under this coach. 3's PLEASE!!!!

travmil
10-01-2010, 07:30 PM
Personally, at this point I see arguing and complaining about JOB's coaching style and philosophy as pointless as a tuna scented douche. You can do it as much as you want but it's not going to change/improve the situation.

:rotflmao:

OakMoses
10-01-2010, 08:10 PM
Did you listen to the audio clip or are you just going by the initial tweet? Here is what was said (you can find audio here (http://www.1070thefan.com/pacers/) called "JOB on the power forward position (10-1-10)"). Jim speaks while someone who is probably Bruno does his best impression of Hands,bro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBJm-UorQu0).

I hadn't heard that. Thanks for transcribing.

That's encouraging news. Nice to read good things about George also.

Speed
10-01-2010, 08:18 PM
Great for Josh, not great for Magnum, I guess. JOB said Sol can play 2 positions. That doesn't sound like he is going to cut him. Someone has to go, who is it? Sol, Magnum, TJ, or Lance.

I've been thinking about this, I wonder if it's AJ Price who'll get cut now, if a trade can't be made.

They seem light for front court depth. I just don't know, I thought it was TJ or Solo coming into this, but with Hansbrough trying to get up to speed I think you need Solo and with AJ not recovered, really, you can't really go with just DC and Lance only.

I guess I really don't know anymore.

Chuck Chillout
10-01-2010, 08:40 PM
I've been thinking about this, I wonder if it's AJ Price who'll get cut now, if a trade can't be made.

They seem light for front court depth. I just don't know, I thought it was TJ or Solo coming into this, but with Hansbrough trying to get up to speed I think you need Solo and with AJ not recovered, really, you can't really go with just DC and Lance only.

I guess I really don't know anymore.

I think Price is much more a sure thing than Stephenson right now due to the charges Stephenson's facing. I'd guess they'd keep both if they have that option. Either Rolle or SJones would go first, regardless of front court depth.

pacer4ever
10-01-2010, 08:44 PM
Honestly this doesn't surprise me....Josh is the only other big man taking and making 3's. Oh and Jim's opinion on a player DOES NOT make them a good player. They just FIT his system. Let's a see a few of Jim's PF's A. Walker, W. McCarthy, T. Murphy...... now J. McRoberts. They can shoot the 3 so in Jim's eyes they're GGRRRREEEAAATTTT!!!!! I DONT CARE what Jim thinks.

ya im suprised we just didnt sign A. Walker JOB would of LOVE him lol

Eleazar
10-01-2010, 08:46 PM
I've been thinking about this, I wonder if it's AJ Price who'll get cut now, if a trade can't be made.

They seem light for front court depth. I just don't know, I thought it was TJ or Solo coming into this, but with Hansbrough trying to get up to speed I think you need Solo and with AJ not recovered, really, you can't really go with just DC and Lance only.

I guess I really don't know anymore.

I think Jones and Posey both should be mentioned in the possible cut/buyout category.

xBulletproof
10-01-2010, 08:47 PM
I'm not the biggest AJ Price fan in the world (I'm not sookie :)), but I'll vomit if we cut him. Horrible idea.

Sookie
10-01-2010, 08:47 PM
I've been thinking about this, I wonder if it's AJ Price who'll get cut now, if a trade can't be made.

They seem light for front court depth. I just don't know, I thought it was TJ or Solo coming into this, but with Hansbrough trying to get up to speed I think you need Solo and with AJ not recovered, really, you can't really go with just DC and Lance only.

I guess I really don't know anymore.


That'd be silly now. They wasted resources and their time with rehabbing AJ. Why not just cut him months ago? Especially when he's been cleared to play and just needs to get his legs under him.

I know I'm biased here, but truly if you look at the PGs, when TJ isn't wanted here and Lance..may not be here for long. (Or if he is, will more than likely end up a SG) and you've spent money and resources helping AJ recover, why cut him now? Especially when I don't really expect TJ to be on the team the entire season, and AJ is still considered to be a guy a part of the core?

I think they'll see what happens during Lance's hearing, and decide what to do after that. They are probably trying desperately to trade TJ or Dahntay in the process, or possibly Rush. But when it's all said and done, I think it'll still be Solo (I mean really, we have Hibbert, Foster, McBob, and Hans plus Posey and Granger "can" play the 4. Solo adds depth but not talent) or a wing (we have enough..) that goes, if they can't get a trade and the girl's story changes.

TooBigNdaPaint
10-01-2010, 08:52 PM
I also like McBob's toughness and his body makeover this past summer. He does appear to be a very cerebral player and understands exactly what JOB wants to achieve in his Offensive and Defensive sets. I also like Magnum Rolle alot as well. I believe we signed Magnum Rolle because we expect to trade somebody before the season starts. Worst case, we cut someone like AJ Price because Lance Stephenson has MORE size and upside than AJ Price (although if Lance is convicted of a felonious assault, he'll be cut).

My worst fear is that JOB will start 2-3 slow-twitch players like he did last year and we'll be BEHIND by 15 pts before the 2nd QTR starts. I want to see guys that can play DEFENSE start the game. We definitely DON'T need one dimensional guys who can SHOOT it (Dun-Dun) but can play NO defense. Or guys who can REBOUND (Jeff Foster) but can't SHOOT it. I hear that Paul George and McBob had the HIGHEST rated PRACTICES due to their DEFENSE and ability to get their hands (steals, deflections, etc.) on the ROCK. Brandon hasn't impressed me too much in practice because he's still very passive on OFFENSE. I'll never know WHY he doesn't rise up over his defender and just shoot the rock. He's got springs in his legs but he has NO confidence still in his shot nor much of a killer instinct.

I rather see Lance Stephenson on the court who has DOG in him and will play a very physical brand of NBA basketball. Lance only needs experience of JOB's offense and defensive sets. The VETS have a little edge but you can tell Lance will bring his killer instinct with him. Watch him slapping the bench table whenever he watches HIS white team get dogged on DEFENSE. He knows that he would be a mismatch as a PG and he sees the court so much better with his huge physical size. His reported LACK of defense is BS. Yes, he may not realize that NBA players will shoot it whenever any space exists to get their shot off but Lance is a quick learner and he'll be HELL for some opposing PG to defend or shoot over once Lance learns the nuances of playing defense in the NBA.

Hicks
10-01-2010, 09:06 PM
Did you listen to the audio clip or are you just going by the initial tweet? Here is what was said (you can find audio here (http://www.1070thefan.com/pacers/) called "JOB on the power forward position (10-1-10)"). Jim speaks while someone who is probably Bruno does his best impression of Hands,bro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBJm-UorQu0).

Thanks for transcribing it.




JOB: we keep hustle stats - which are deflections, charges, offensive rebounds - and in the first three days, not counting today, Paul George had 36, Josh had 31 and nobody else had over 15....So ... I don't care if you're a rookie .... If you're being active like that, .... you need to be on the basketball court.

That sure makes it sound like Paul George is going to see time immediately to me. And that's exciting to me because I had been telling myself to expect a project for the first year or two before he's ready.

Anthem
10-01-2010, 10:03 PM
I find it disconcerting that Hansbrough hasn't shown up much in the practice videos online. Anybody else see a trend of no news/video on the Hans?
Me.

It seems like Obie is saying Josh's primary competition for PT is Foster and Solo. Is that not how you guys are reading it?

It seems weird not to mention Tyler in that context.

Hicks
10-01-2010, 10:33 PM
The way I see it, either Tyler's struggling, or Tyler's being "ignored" until his conditioning or whatever is back to where he's as much a part of 5-on-5 scrimmages as he allegedly is everything else.

I only recall seeing him play during video showing a 4-on-4 session.

Sookie
10-01-2010, 10:39 PM
Me.

It seems like Obie is saying Josh's primary competition for PT is Foster and Solo. Is that not how you guys are reading it?

It seems weird not to mention Tyler in that context.

I thought he said something about Tyler "getting back in game form" or something like that (not necessarily in audio.)

Tyler hasn't played basketball in a long time. And he's basically a rookie. It's gonna take him time before he's completely ready.

Also, he's probably doing extra rehab besides practices, that might take something out of him.

BobbyMac
10-01-2010, 10:59 PM
JOb was just getting tired of explaining why he's not playing McRoberts...and he got a little testy.

The NBA is a business and sometimes the message needs to be framed for the fans. The reality is, if he played McRoberts, fans would not want to see Murphy on the floor. If Murphy sits on the bench, his value plummets...and that's a huge contract to sit on the bench.

Now that Murph's been traded and more of the bloated contracts get moved, things will start to make more sense...

I do enjoy such humor...

judicata
10-01-2010, 11:00 PM
I'm skeptical on Josh starting at the 4 until he shows me he's got a pair. He's been able to jump out of the gym and dribble behind his back since he was 18. He's never wanted for talent or potential.

Bball
10-02-2010, 12:21 AM
Tyler hasn't played a real game since what... Dec 09? And he was just officially cleared to start practicing with contact after a long rehab period? And it's not like he was a 3 time All-Star starter at his position before the injury... So it's not hard to see why he might be a notch or two down on the depth charts right now.

It's hard to read McRoberts being #1 on the PF charts right now saying anything about Tyler considering the above.

If Tyler wants to pass McRoberts on the depth charts he needs to start focusing on his 3 point shooting. That would be the quickest way to get back to the starting lineup.

imawhat
10-02-2010, 01:58 AM
Thanks for transcribing it.




That sure makes it sound like Paul George is going to see time immediately to me. And that's exciting to me because I had been telling myself to expect a project for the first year or two before he's ready.

Paul's defense has been terrific in the clips I've seen. He showed flashes in summer league but he's taken it to another level because of his focus. Very impressive.

I agree. If he keeps it up and finds a way to shoot well, he'll get playing time.

CableKC
10-02-2010, 02:22 AM
i have zero problem with slowly getting Hansbrough into game form as long as McRoberts is getting minutes. I'd really hope that Magnum some minutes over Solo......but I'd live with what I can get with McRoberts.

Unclebuck
10-02-2010, 04:26 AM
Not to bad for a guy who wouldn't be in the NBA in, what was it again oh yea 2 years.:)

Fair enough. I hope i can take as good as I give.

If Josh is our best player at ower forward and he works well with Roy (that is the most important thing IMO) then I have no problem with Josh starting and laying as many minutes as he possbly can. I'll gladly eat my words.

On the other side of this is something I feel I need to mention. Wait, I thought O'Brien hated Josh (I could dig out dozens, maybe hundreds of posts) and I thought O'Brien was too stubborn to change.

so if I was wrong about Josh great I can admit it.

HeliumFear
10-02-2010, 05:47 AM
Is it just possible to believe that Josh has actually grown as a player, and seeing the opportunity at hand, put in mad work to seize it?

I'm sure he has grown as a player,but I don't expect him to suddenly be starter quality.

MagicRat
10-02-2010, 07:35 AM
To me, this tells me more about where Hansbrough is at than anything else.

I like Josh. I'm glad to see him get an opportunity, and I hope it's because he's played well. When he says Josh would play 36 minutes what I here is "We don't have anybody else who's ready to be out there right now."

Reminds me of time JOB was on Kravitz and Eddie after his first season. Kravitz was talking about walking to Kokomo and JOB said he'd go with him if Jamaal was still on the roster.

Kravitz asked him about all of the high praise he had given Jamaal when he was first hired and during the offseason/preseason. JOB's response: "I had no choice. He was all I had."

Hopefully his high praise of Josh is truly because he's earned it.......:fingerscr

PacerGuy
10-02-2010, 07:43 AM
I am excited just because JO'B seems excited!
Josh has the skill sets (to the level we still don't know) that we all think will work well next to Roy. I can not tell you how good Josh is/can/ or will be, but I like being hopeful for the best. What I do know is Josh is 6'10, built solid, has a big-time motor, has some offensive skill sets, is improving on D, has 3 yrs of NBA experience, & is our youngest player!
I'm not sure why everyone thinks he is so limited, or is the "worst starting 4" in the NBA? Is it he played HS here? His diss of the HS All-Stars? He went to Duke? Focus on his 2nd rd status while forgetting had he come out 1 yr earlier he would have been late lotto territory? Because JO'B had him shooting all those 3's l/y? Or - not to ignore the white elephant in the room, is it his skin color?
Everyone here is in love w/ Magnum, yet on draft nite we were all like "Who?" In just 1 summer league + 1 cool workout video, + some praise from the coaching staff, & most here are hopeful we have the next Rodman/Bosh/JO/KG-type. Why? Is it he's new & unknown, or is there some underlineing optimism based on something more? I for one am not sure...
I just want to know: What happened to "McBeard's" legend from l/y? Did we forget Josh's summer league promise from l/y? Did Sampson lose his power when he cut his hair? Why do the people that diss Josh praise us bringing in players like C.Anderson, C.Landery, B.Bass & others of this ilk. How/why are they any better? Why can't Josh have the light come on ala JO (& others), a few yrs into the league & w/ the PT to develop? Why can't Josh be good?
Opportunity trumps Perception sometimes, just ask Tom Brady.

Kemo
10-02-2010, 07:49 AM
I am excited just because JO'B seems excited!
Josh has the skill sets (to the level we still don't know) that we all think will work well next to Roy. I can not tell you how good Josh is/can/ or will be, but I like being hopeful for the best. What I do know is Josh is 6'10, built solid, has a big-time motor, has some offensive skill sets, is improving on D, has 3 yrs of NBA experience, & is our youngest player!
I'm not sure why everyone thinks he is so limited, or is the "worst starting 4" in the NBA? Is it he played HS here? His diss of the HS All-Stars? He went to Duke? Focus on his 2nd rd status while forgetting had he come out 1 yr earlier he would have been late lotto territory? Because JO'B had him shooting all those 3's l/y? Or - not to ignore the white elephant in the room, is it his skin color?
Everyone here is in love w/ Magnum, yet on draft nite we were all like "Who?" In just 1 summer league + 1 cool workout video, + some praise from the coaching staff, & most here are hopeful we have the next Rodman/Bosh/JO/KG-type. Why? Is it he's new & unknown, or is there some underlineing optimism based on something more? I for one am not sure...
I just want to know: What happened to "McBeard's" legend from l/y? Did we forget Josh's summer league promise from l/y? Did Sampson lose his power when he cut his hair? Why can't Josh have the light come on ala JO (& others), a few yrs into the league & w/ the PT to develop? Why can't Josh be good?
Opportunity trumps Perception sometimes, just ask Tom Brady.

+100 THANK YOU !!

I couldn't have said it more eloquently myself if I tried...



.

Naptown_Seth
10-02-2010, 08:41 AM
Because I must be open minded to a DRASTIC CHANGE despite it's enormously low probability, I don't want to just bash JOB if he does chose to do this. However wouldn't something like this only further prove that at the very least JOB of last 2 years had zero clue what he was doing with the roster.

Here's the logic - you need a banger PF who has strong lateral speed and brings tons of disruptive energy. You needed it two years ago which is why you draft Tyler.

Josh randomly gets a chance to come in 2 years ago and does things like fight for tough boards that Troy couldn't get, gets switched onto SFs and proves he can keep in front of them even 15 feet away from the rim, and shows outstanding hops for oops, blocks and general disruption near the rim.

Does he pick up too many fouls and not have a well developed offensive game, sure, but a good coach realizes he's lucked into finding part of the solution to a major problem - tough PF play. He also realizes Josh is so young he's virtually a rookie and is paid zilch so he can be here for the long haul.

Contrast this with Troy (and Rasho the year before) who make so much money and are old enough that they are certain to be primary pieces moved as soon as possible. In fact many GMs would have considered buying out Rasho for the savings and to make room for youth development.

What's the worst that happens if you start feeding Josh those 10-15 minutes (ditto Hibbert at C) instead of your slow footed bigs who aren't part of the long term picture? If they don't improve then you find out sooner that you need to punt on them, and you don't miss the playoffs "more" somehow (forget the draft pick improvement even since that's not the goal).

But if they do improve then by now when you announce to the fanbase that Josh could get 36 minutes no one thinks it's nuts and no one doubts his ability. It's exactly the opposite. The fans would have been seeing these guys develop and anticipation would have been growing. See Reggie's rookie year BEHIND JOHN LONG, who didn't exactly have a bad year himself. A kid proving himself off the bench gets people interested in seeing more.


And as a coach it means that by the time you are ready to rely on him, he's improved enough to make good on those kinds of minutes.


And then on top of that strategic benefit, you clearly spent the last season fending off chants at home for Josh to play, callers to the show lighting you up for your approach to Josh's PT, and the entire "irrelevant" scandal which made you look like a horse's a** and irrationally stubborn.


And if anything summed up the last 2 years with JOB that moment was it. You needed good PF play. Josh gave you a nice burst with some chance PT vs an elite team. During that stretch of play (the first half) your team was neck and neck with said elite team. And you dismissed it as irrelevant rather than wishing he could have kept it up for another 14 minutes and maybe helped get the win (not to mention wishing the rest of the team could have picked up the slack in the 2nd half too).



JOB is the anti-MacGyver. Yes it's a tough spot, but when you luck into MINI solutions that when added together give you a big solution and you fail to recognize them then it's no surprise you're not finding success.

And overcorrecting to "Josh starts and goes 36 minutes" after wasting 2 years of zero development time with him only exacerbates the problem. Now Josh will wilt under that PT and look foolish taking tons of 3s and JOB will be able to say "see, I knew he stunk".

Apply the tool correctly and you can get the job done. But to intentionally use it incorrectly to prove that you knew it wasn't a helpful tool is a Quixotic approach to proving your strategy is better than the fans realize.

Naptown_Seth
10-02-2010, 08:52 AM
Wait, I thought O'Brien hated Josh (I could dig out dozens, maybe hundreds of posts) and I thought O'Brien was too stubborn to change.
That was fans talking about JOB THE LAST TWO YEARS.

JOB today - Josh is the type of PF I could start and use for 36 minutes

JOB last year - Josh's play was irrelevant.

That's JOB vs JOB, not vs the fans. No way in hell Josh improved that much in the last few months of the summer. Not possible. Not 5 minutes to 36 minutes improved. Danny didn't do that, Reggie didn't, Rik didn't, Dale didn't.

Josh would WIN MOST IMPROVED if he were to simply adequately start and play 36 minute as, say, the 28th best starting PF. People would be talking about him coming out of nowhere.

And who put him in "nowhere"??? JOB the last two years.


All this suggests is that perhaps JOB has STOPPED BEING stubborn and/or stopped hating Josh....or has been dictated too.

Or is blowing smoke on things that won't actually happen.

But no one was wrong for questioning him the last 2 years. Even JOB of this year appears to take exception with JOB of last year's view on Josh.

Naptown_Seth
10-02-2010, 09:00 AM
JOb was just getting tired of explaining why he's not playing McRoberts...and he got a little testy.

The NBA is a business and sometimes the message needs to be framed for the fans. The reality is, if he played McRoberts, fans would not want to see Murphy on the floor. If Murphy sits on the bench, his value plummets...and that's a huge contract to sit on the bench.

Now that Murph's been traded and more of the bloated contracts get moved, things will start to make more sense...
Yes, because you know what has zero trade value in the NBA? Underpaid players aged 20-22 that continue to improve and show potential every time you play them.

Troy's CONTRACT was always going to improve his trade value as time passed, even if he didn't play at all. But Josh playing 10-15 minutes last year and 10 mpg the prior year makes him a very high value target for other teams.

Why not lock him into an extra year for cheap, then work him up enough that you can trade him for a talented, cheap PG. Then you don't even have to eat Troy's salary on the return.


ALL PLAYERS CAN BE SHOWCASED. They all can have trade value from what they do on court.


And oh by the way, showing what a player can do has a dark side to it....you also show everyone what they CAN'T DO (ahem, defend anything with better moves than a telephone pole).




Personally, at this point I see arguing and complaining about JOB's coaching style and philosophy as pointless as a tuna scented douche. You can do it as much as you want but it's not going to change/improve the situation.
So basically the old "if (situation) is inevitable, sit back and enjoy it". Good call.

"Man, this cancer is making me miserable".
"Stop complaining, it's not like it's going to change anything".



By the way, is there ANYTHING that our arguing and complaining here at PD could change/improve? Just checking before I waste my time posting anything ever again.

pacers74
10-02-2010, 09:40 AM
By the way, is there ANYTHING that our arguing and complaining here at PD could change/improve? Just checking before I waste my time posting anything ever again.


You never know who is reading PD. We were talking about getting Collison months before the trade went down. You see a lot of stuff in the star that says the fans are upset about certain things ,and sure enough it had already been posted about on here.

Can we really change things, no, but the forum is a big part of the true fan base and maybe somebody important will read your posts.

Brad8888
10-02-2010, 11:07 AM
Unfortunately, I had to thank your post only once. It deserves more than that IMO.

Actually, it is unfortunate that I felt the need to thank your post at all because I want so much for it to not be true.

I also unfortunately share your view in its entirety because my opinions of our team, McRoberts, and especially our coach are, as frequently happens, extremely similar to yours. Experience can sometimes be a cruel teacher, and it has been for us with respect to the coaching that has gone on here.

There may be some hope for Josh being used the way we think he should be instead of camped between the high post and the arc. I think the fact that JOB has stated at the start of the whole "Josh is starting" thing that he is not evaluating Josh on the basis of his shooting, coupled with his reference to his getting deflections, etc indicates that, due to his favorite player not named Antoine Walker being gone, O'B is being forced to live with having an active 4 as opposed to a "stretch 4". That is countered, however, by watching the scrimmage footage we are being shown which have shown Josh at the arc quite a few times. To be fair, though, we have also seen him in the vicinity of the rim as well, making some good hustle plays.

This reversal on McRoberts will be watched extremely closely, even in the media, and O'B has to know that. I just hope, like I am sure you do, that if McRoberts shoots 3's he makes enough of them to stay on the court so he can at least sometimes do what he does best.

MLB007
10-02-2010, 11:16 AM
I also like McBob's toughness and his body makeover this past summer. He does appear to be a very cerebral player and understands exactly what JOB wants to achieve in his Offensive and Defensive sets. I also like Magnum Rolle alot as well. I believe we signed Magnum Rolle because we expect to trade somebody before the season starts. Worst case, we cut someone like AJ Price because Lance Stephenson has MORE size and upside than AJ Price (although if Lance is convicted of a felonious assault, he'll be cut).

My worst fear is that JOB will start 2-3 slow-twitch players like he did last year and we'll be BEHIND by 15 pts before the 2nd QTR starts. I want to see guys that can play DEFENSE start the game. We definitely DON'T need one dimensional guys who can SHOOT it (Dun-Dun) but can play NO defense. Or guys who can REBOUND (Jeff Foster) but can't SHOOT it. I hear that Paul George and McBob had the HIGHEST rated PRACTICES due to their DEFENSE and ability to get their hands (steals, deflections, etc.) on the ROCK. Brandon hasn't impressed me too much in practice because he's still very passive on OFFENSE. I'll never know WHY he doesn't rise up over his defender and just shoot the rock. He's got springs in his legs but he has NO confidence still in his shot nor much of a killer instinct.

I rather see Lance Stephenson on the court who has DOG in him and will play a very physical brand of NBA basketball. Lance only needs experience of JOB's offense and defensive sets. The VETS have a little edge but you can tell Lance will bring his killer instinct with him. Watch him slapping the bench table whenever he watches HIS white team get dogged on DEFENSE. He knows that he would be a mismatch as a PG and he sees the court so much better with his huge physical size. His reported LACK of defense is BS. Yes, he may not realize that NBA players will shoot it whenever any space exists to get their shot off but Lance is a quick learner and he'll be HELL for some opposing PG to defend or shoot over once Lance learns the nuances of playing defense in the NBA.

Lance will never be quick enough to guard pg's in the NBA.

MLB007
10-02-2010, 11:20 AM
Thanks for transcribing it.




That sure makes it sound like Paul George is going to see time immediately to me. And that's exciting to me because I had been telling myself to expect a project for the first year or two before he's ready.

Why?
The evidence has been there all along.
You really believed what Larry said?
It's called keeping expectations low.
Pretty sound advise in his position.
Doesn't mean HE believed it. ;)

The word "I" hear, is that they are blown away by the kid and that they expect him to be an all star in time.
The guys shot is effortless. And he's new to swingman!
When he came in and showed not only extreme length and quickness on DEFENSE, but also a desire to work at it, well it was pretty clear right there that he CAN be something special.

But you can't say that before the guys played a game that counts. :)

MLB007
10-02-2010, 11:24 AM
Me.

It seems like Obie is saying Josh's primary competition for PT is Foster and Solo. Is that not how you guys are reading it?

It seems weird not to mention Tyler in that context.


Was going to start a thread about it, but it seems pretty clear to me from the wording used by Tyler and others that he's still suffering the effects and learning to live with it.
He's clearly NOT said, "it's over, I"m 100% again".
It's all, feeling better, ready to try it out... kind of comments.
I think he's XX% back, ok to play again, but still having problems with it.

Had never heard the bright lights being a problem part.
Gee, good thing they play in dimly lit barns................ :o

BlueNGold
10-02-2010, 11:28 AM
Lance will never be quick enough to guard pg's in the NBA.

This is a fact. He will also struggle to guard SG's. This is why...with all of his basketball talents...he will always struggle in the NBA.

Can he overcome this? I don't know. ...but if it does not change he is a very flawed player.

...and that ignores all the baggage of many varieties that he brings.

Sookie
10-02-2010, 11:41 AM
This is a fact. He will also struggle to guard SG's. This is why...with all of his basketball talents...he will always struggle in the NBA.

Can he overcome this? I don't know. ...but if it does not change he is a very flawed player.

...and that ignores all the baggage of many varieties that he brings.

Yup. Lance playing the point has failed at every level for a reason.

imawhat
10-02-2010, 11:54 AM
Reminds me of time JOB was on Kravitz and Eddie after his first season. Kravitz was talking about walking to Kokomo and JOB said he'd go with him if Jamaal was still on the roster.

Kravitz asked him about all of the high praise he had given Jamaal when he was first hired and during the offseason/preseason. JOB's response: "I had no choice. He was all I had."

Hopefully his high praise of Josh is truly because he's earned it.......:fingerscr

The observation which I'm afraid of.

O'Brien has a history of making grandiose statements about players that never materialize, in particular power forwards.

That first year it was Tinsley, but it was also Ike Diogu who drew grand comments from O'Brien.

Last year it was Solomon Jones. O'Brien's comments made a lot of people think he'd start at center over Hibbert.

I'm not getting my hopes up about McRoberts after Jim's history. Besides, he's saying how Josh would play after one week of training camp.

dlewyus
10-02-2010, 11:57 AM
I think Jones and Posey both should be mentioned in the possible cut/buyout category.


Or Trade? I would be ok with either of these being thrown in with an expiring for a 2 for 1 trade.

Chuck Chillout
10-02-2010, 12:07 PM
The observation which I'm afraid of.

O'Brien has a history of making grandiose statements about players that never materialize, in particular power forwards.

That first year it was Tinsley, but it was also Ike Diogu who drew grand comments from O'Brien.

Last year it was Solomon Jones. O'Brien's comments made a lot of people think he'd start at center over Hibbert.

I'm not getting my hopes up about McRoberts after Jim's history. Besides, he's saying how Josh would play after one week of training camp.

What an entirely sane, intelligent post.

vnzla81
10-02-2010, 12:22 PM
Because I must be open minded to a DRASTIC CHANGE despite it's enormously low probability, I don't want to just bash JOB if he does chose to do this. However wouldn't something like this only further prove that at the very least JOB of last 2 years had zero clue what he was doing with the roster.

Here's the logic - you need a banger PF who has strong lateral speed and brings tons of disruptive energy. You needed it two years ago which is why you draft Tyler.

Josh randomly gets a chance to come in 2 years ago and does things like fight for tough boards that Troy couldn't get, gets switched onto SFs and proves he can keep in front of them even 15 feet away from the rim, and shows outstanding hops for oops, blocks and general disruption near the rim.

Does he pick up too many fouls and not have a well developed offensive game, sure, but a good coach realizes he's lucked into finding part of the solution to a major problem - tough PF play. He also realizes Josh is so young he's virtually a rookie and is paid zilch so he can be here for the long haul.

Contrast this with Troy (and Rasho the year before) who make so much money and are old enough that they are certain to be primary pieces moved as soon as possible. In fact many GMs would have considered buying out Rasho for the savings and to make room for youth development.

What's the worst that happens if you start feeding Josh those 10-15 minutes (ditto Hibbert at C) instead of your slow footed bigs who aren't part of the long term picture? If they don't improve then you find out sooner that you need to punt on them, and you don't miss the playoffs "more" somehow (forget the draft pick improvement even since that's not the goal).

But if they do improve then by now when you announce to the fanbase that Josh could get 36 minutes no one thinks it's nuts and no one doubts his ability. It's exactly the opposite. The fans would have been seeing these guys develop and anticipation would have been growing. See Reggie's rookie year BEHIND JOHN LONG, who didn't exactly have a bad year himself. A kid proving himself off the bench gets people interested in seeing more.


And as a coach it means that by the time you are ready to rely on him, he's improved enough to make good on those kinds of minutes.


And then on top of that strategic benefit, you clearly spent the last season fending off chants at home for Josh to play, callers to the show lighting you up for your approach to Josh's PT, and the entire "irrelevant" scandal which made you look like a horse's a** and irrationally stubborn.


And if anything summed up the last 2 years with JOB that moment was it. You needed good PF play. Josh gave you a nice burst with some chance PT vs an elite team. During that stretch of play (the first half) your team was neck and neck with said elite team. And you dismissed it as irrelevant rather than wishing he could have kept it up for another 14 minutes and maybe helped get the win (not to mention wishing the rest of the team could have picked up the slack in the 2nd half too).



JOB is the anti-MacGyver. Yes it's a tough spot, but when you luck into MINI solutions that when added together give you a big solution and you fail to recognize them then it's no surprise you're not finding success.

And overcorrecting to "Josh starts and goes 36 minutes" after wasting 2 years of zero development time with him only exacerbates the problem. Now Josh will wilt under that PT and look foolish taking tons of 3s and JOB will be able to say "see, I knew he stunk".

Apply the tool correctly and you can get the job done. But to intentionally use it incorrectly to prove that you knew it wasn't a helpful tool is a Quixotic approach to proving your strategy is better than the fans realize.

best post of the month

:bowdown::applaud:

Bball
10-02-2010, 12:56 PM
Fair enough. I hope i can take as good as I give.

If Josh is our best player at ower forward and he works well with Roy (that is the most important thing IMO) then I have no problem with Josh starting and laying as many minutes as he possbly can. I'll gladly eat my words.

On the other side of this is something I feel I need to mention. Wait, I thought O'Brien hated Josh (I could dig out dozens, maybe hundreds of posts) and I thought O'Brien was too stubborn to change.

so if I was wrong about Josh great I can admit it.

No one is more full of s--t than Jim O'Brien when it comes to saying one thing and his actions doing another. The only reason to pay attention to what he says is to compare it to other past comments that had no basis in reality on the court. Quite simply, his actions and words don't mesh.

I pay less attention to what Jim O'Brien says than to anything Ron Artest said.

O'Brien is a walking contradiction in terms coaching a brand of basketball I have no belief in what-so-ever. He talks a good game... but so did Isiah... And neither is a coach I want to see on the sidelines of my team. If O'Brien practiced what he preached I'd be behind him 100%. He doesn't.

TooBigNdaPaint
10-02-2010, 02:02 PM
Lance will never be quick enough to guard pg's in the NBA.

I didn't say Lance was quick enough to match-up with the quick little 6'1" and below NBA guards!!! I was referring to those NBA games whereby he'd be matched up with bigger PGs in the NBA like John Walls at 6'4" (and his backup Kirk Hinrich at 6'4" plus Gilbert Areanas at 6'4" who's still listed as a PG), Tyreke Evans at 6'6", Deron Williams at 6'3", Baron Davis at 6'3", and Jason Kidd at 6'4" just to name a few of the bigger PGs in the league.

And, don't tell me that DC at 6'0" or TJ at 5'11" can handle the above listed bigger PGs. Lance has already shown an ability to play PG. His has an excellent handle to break down his man, has great court vision & passing ability, and he has the size to go to the rim and provide HELP DEFENSE (coming from behind to block shots like MJ did nearly game). Lance's unique size and abilities is exactly what LB visioned when he was STILL available at #40 in this year's draft.

pacer4ever
10-02-2010, 02:31 PM
Or Trade? I would be ok with either of these being thrown in with an expiring for a 2 for 1 trade.

no one will take posey

BlueNGold
10-02-2010, 02:33 PM
I didn't say Lance was quick enough to match-up with the quick little 6'1" and below NBA guards!!! I was referring to those NBA games whereby he'd be matched up with bigger PGs in the NBA like Derrick Rose, John Walls (and his backup Kirk Hinrich plus Gilbert Areanas who's listed as a PG), Rajon Rondo, Tyreke Evans, Deron Williams, and Jason Kidd just to name a few of the bigger PGs in the league. And, don't tell me that DC or TJ can handle the above listed bigger PGs. Here is exactly where LB visioned how Lance Stephenson could help the Pacers. Lance only needs practice and game situation 'playing time' to get up to speed with the nuances of NBA defenses and offenses. Lance's physical style of play, his ability to break down his man, his nice outside shooting (off of screens), and his ability to get to the rim and draw the foul will make his matchup with these bigger PGs an even tossup or favor to the Pacers (after he plays each one of these guys at least once or twice)!!!!

I think you are too focused on Lance's strongest attribute: Overpowering guards while he navigates to the rim.

I like that attribute as well and he is a great scorer...but I've seen enough from him to know his game is flawed pretty deeply on the defensive end.

He is simply never going to be quick enough to guard Rondo, Rose...and Wall will be a major mismatch. He has lead in his shoes and simply will be unable to keep in front of them. I also question whether he is smart enough to make the right game-time decisions and I am pretty certain he will not bring leadership to the PG position. BTW, arrogance is not the same as leadership. Just because he can overpower the average PG does not make him a good PG.

Yes, on offense, he will shine at times...but the bigs will not allow him to drive to the rim all the time. He's a strong guy, but this is the NBA and he's simply not that athletic. Dude will be eating some leather in traffic because he has no hops.

TooBigNdaPaint
10-02-2010, 02:53 PM
I think you are too focused on Lance's strongest attribute: Overpowering guards while he navigates to the rim.

I like that attribute as well and he is a great scorer...but I've seen enough from him to know his game is flawed pretty deeply on the defensive end.

He is simply never going to be quick enough to guard Rondo, Rose...and Wall will be a major mismatch. He has lead in his shoes and simply will be unable to keep in front of them. I also question whether he is smart enough to make the right game-time decisions and I am pretty certain he will not bring leadership to the PG position. BTW, arrogance is not the same as leadership. Just because he can overpower the average PG does not make him a good PG.

Yes, on offense, he will shine at times...but the bigs will not allow him to drive to the rim all the time. He's a strong guy, but this is the NBA and he's simply not that athletic. Dude will be eating some leather in traffic because he has no hops.

Again, I didn't say Lance was quick enough to match-up with the quick little 6'1" and below NBA guards like Derrick Rose or Rajon Rando!!! I was referring to those NBA games whereby he'd be matched up with bigger PGs in the NBA like John Walls at 6'4" (and his backup Kirk Hinrich at 6'4" plus Gilbert Areanas at 6'4" who's still listed as a PG), Tyreke Evans at 6'6", Deron Williams at 6'3", Baron Davis at 6'3", and Jason Kidd at 6'4" just to name a few of the bigger PGs in the league.

I just can't visualize DC at 6'0" or TJ at 5'11" handling the above listed bigger PGs. As LB and Morway noted, Lance has already shown an ability to play PG. His has an excellent handle to break down his man, has great court vision & passing ability, and he has the size to go to the rim and provide HELP DEFENSE (coming from behind to block shots like MJ did nearly game). Lance's unique size and abilities is exactly what LB visioned when he was STILL available at #40 in this year's draft. Remember, he's only 19yrs old. I've seen him shoot it and he has a nice release and arc on his shot and he shows no fear in letting it go (unlike Brandon). He also shown a nice tear-drop shot in the lane and a finger-roll a-la Iceman Gervin. Lance is much more well-rounded as a basketball player (and at a very young age) to JUST overpower his man as you and others seem to always note in your posts.

We'll see what happens against these bigger PGs if he gets into these games. I don't see DC being able to handle the athletic and strong Derrick Rose at 6'2" or Rajon Rando at 6'1" or any taller PG that's long and lean. I haven't see DC play enough to have an opinion of his current skill-set. I hear all of the hype but I just don't see how a small PG can handle the bigger PGs (with their extra length) in this league. And regarding Lance's supposed arrogance, I don't see anyone questioning D-Wade's or Tyreke Evan's or Deron Williams' vicious drives to the rim against the smaller guards in this league. It's just understood that you take any advantage that your superior athleticism or skill-set gives you. So, why not Lance?

And leadership in this league can be shown in many ways besides verbally. Most NBA stars in the league 'lead by example' when on the court by being physical, nasty at times, and by showing their killer-instinct. I'd actually prefer both verbal and 'by example' in my leaders but I'll take the latter if the leader-athlete does not have a verbal personality. In fact, I love the way that D-Wade 'traumatizes' his opponents with his physical style of play. It's just understood among players that IF you got it.....flaunt it baby!!!

xBulletproof
10-02-2010, 03:19 PM
At point guard if I had to choose between someone the same size as the guy he was guarding, or to be as fast as the guy he's guarding, I'd go with speed every time. Lance's size doesn't help him a bit when he's 2 steps behind any of those guys, giving up a layup or requiring help so that the other team gets an open shot.

Yet, if they'd like to post up Collison, then they can go for it. They don't practice posting up much at PG, and it's not likely to be a high quality possession.

Lance at PG is not a good idea, and no he hasn't "shown an ability" to play at point guard, in fact he hasn't even played an NBA game yet. His handles in summer league were suspect, and every day NBA PG's would have ripped him several times.

TooBigNdaPaint
10-02-2010, 03:30 PM
At point guard if I had to choose between someone the same size as the guy he was guarding, or to be as fast as the guy he's guarding, I'd go with speed every time. Lance's size doesn't help him a bit when he's 2 steps behind any of those guys, giving up a layup or requiring help so that the other team gets an open shot.

Yet, if they'd like to post up Collison, then they can go for it. They don't practice posting up much at PG, and it's not likely to be a high quality possession.

Lance at PG is not a good idea, and no he hasn't "shown an ability" to play at point guard, in fact he hasn't even played an NBA game yet. His handles in summer league were suspect, and every day NBA PG's would have ripped him several times.

We'll see soon enough. I actually like Lance better at SG but I think he's versatile enough to play PG against the bigger NBA PGs. We'll see how it all plays out. He is a little 'slow-footed' against DC or TJ but, again, they are part of the little quick guards in this league who ARE supposed to have elite speed in order to play in the NBA.

Sookie
10-02-2010, 03:38 PM
At point guard if I had to choose between someone the same size as the guy he was guarding, or to be as fast as the guy he's guarding, I'd go with speed every time. Lance's size doesn't help him a bit when he's 2 steps behind any of those guys, giving up a layup or requiring help so that the other team gets an open shot.

Yet, if they'd like to post up Collison, then they can go for it. They don't practice posting up much at PG, and it's not likely to be a high quality possession.

Lance at PG is not a good idea, and no he hasn't "shown an ability" to play at point guard, in fact he hasn't even played an NBA game yet. His handles in summer league were suspect, and every day NBA PG's would have ripped him several times.

Not to mention, PGs hate playing against the pesky little PG much more so than a taller PG (because typically they are faster)

If you sent Collison, TJ, and AJ out to pressure any of the bigger PGs (and they actually did it..and in rounds so they don't get tired) for an entire game, that PG would get incredibly frustrated, and might be prone to stupid decisions. It's not that those PGs would make a lot of mistakes, at this point they are pros and are better than that..it's just incredibly annoying for them. (think about a knat analogy.)

I really think Collison can end up a very very good defender. Despite being small.

TooBigNdaPaint
10-02-2010, 05:01 PM
Not to mention, PGs hate playing against the pesky little PG much more so than a taller PG (because typically they are faster)

If you sent Collison, TJ, and AJ out to pressure any of the bigger PGs (and they actually did it..and in rounds so they don't get tired) for an entire game, that PG would get incredibly frustrated, and might be prone to stupid decisions. It's not that those PGs would make a lot of mistakes, at this point they are pros and are better than that..it's just incredibly annoying for them. (think about a knat analogy.)

I really think Collison can end up a very very good defender. Despite being small.

Yeah right. I'm sure John Wall at 6'4" or Tyreke Evans at 6'5" would love to have 'midget' PGs like TJ at 5'11" or DC at 6'0" chasing them around the court than a bigger PG like Rajon Rondo or Derrick Rose (or Lance Stephenson). In any event, I was talking ONLY about matching up Lance against the bigger PGs of the league who would have a matchup advantage against our smaller PGs. And, yes, I truly hope DC can DEFEND the bigger PGs (i.e. draw the charge and/or get a couple steals per game) or it'll be another long season of PG or JOB bashing.

But, let's be real. JOB wants his PG to pass the ball early on each possession. DC (and TJ before him) has stated that it's not natural as a PG to just pass the rock instead of playing pick-n-roll when in the half-court offense. Instead, they're now taught by JOB to give up the ball early in the shot clock. In JOB's style of offense, he wants his PG to get the ball up the court as fast as possible, and if no good shot is available, pass the ball to a facilitator like Hibbert or McBob. If the ball reverses or comes back to the PG, his job is to break down his man and get into the lane. Once in the lane, the PG has to take the shot (if it's open or not defended well) or pass to the open 3pt shooter. And, all of this must happen as the shot clock in winding down to zero.

Watch the practice clips. That's exactly what our PG our doing and I see Lance getting real good looks that he's knocking down with ease. On defense, Lance is slanted to the right (to stop DC's strong hand) which causes DC to cross-over and go to his weaker (left) hand but allows him to get into the lane where he draws the Defense' help defenders toward him. This allows DC to kick out to either the SF on the wing or PF (depending on who comes to help on dribble penetration). I did see Lance 'appear' to get burned a couple of times but he played it the correct way. This is not typical NBA ball, however. Most teams put three players on one side of the court and play pick and roll with two players (i.e. which normally involves the PG). Lance would really excel at this with his great size and strength but JOB doesn't play pick and roll half-court offense. He wants passing, penetration, and kick outs to the open 3pt shooter. Hell, we should have BOTH styles.

Shade
10-02-2010, 06:40 PM
I'm so glad that our new starting PF got next to no playing time last season on a lottery-bound team. :annoyed:

Unclebuck
10-02-2010, 09:49 PM
I'm so glad that our new starting PF got next to no playing time last season on a lottery-bound team. :annoyed:

Ok, but is it possible that he was not ready to get playing time last season. maybe he's improved a ton over the summer

Sookie
10-02-2010, 09:57 PM
Ok, but is it possible that he was not ready to get playing time last season. maybe he's improved a ton over the summer

Wouldn't it have been smarter to give him the experience though?

And do you really think Josh jumped from "can't get into the game until scrub time" to "36 minutes a game starter" over the summer?

xBulletproof
10-02-2010, 10:00 PM
I think it's more likely that McRoberts made the jump from garbage time player, to worthy of 10-15 minutes per game. Yet with trading Murphy, and not being sure about Tyler or Jeff, he's forced into a role, ready or not.

vnzla81
10-02-2010, 10:19 PM
I'm so glad that our new starting PF got next to no playing time last season on a lottery-bound team. :annoyed:

Don't forget that Mcbob is been watching video for two years and he was also watching Murphy at work, also take into account that he is been reading books in how to play basketball and now he is ready to destroy the NBA (green)

Unclebuck
10-02-2010, 10:33 PM
Wouldn't it have been smarter to give him the experience though?

And do you really think Josh jumped from "can't get into the game until scrub time" to "36 minutes a game starter" over the summer?

He played quite a bit in March and April, he was part of the regular rotation.

BlueNGold
10-02-2010, 10:58 PM
I'm so glad that our new starting PF got next to no playing time last season on a lottery-bound team. :annoyed:

Look on the bright side. If Murphy had been benched to give McRoberts minutes, TJ may now be our starting PG. Why is this true?

Think about it. McRoberts didn't even get garbage time last year even though the fan base (alot of it) was screaming for him. Now he has auto-magically gone from irrelevant to the best player in practice with a lock on the starting PF position. That's a heck of a turnaround for a player who barely got on the floor last year.

With that in mind, why would TJ be our starting PG? Because there might not be another option. New Jersey may have been less interested in filling their starting PF position with a player who rotted on the Pacer bench. This kind of stuff gets into the mental aspects of the business.

In short, they want to believe Troy is a starting PF....just as we wanted to believe Troy's stats when we acquired him. DC warned us, but not many listened. So, the Pacers were not about to bench Troy last year because there was simply too much money attached to him. Too much to lose by planting him on the bench...or even taking the risk that another player might upstage him and cause the fans to scream louder. Instead, they made the right moves by retaining his trade value and executing an excellent trade.

1984
10-02-2010, 11:11 PM
May the best man win.

imawhat
10-02-2010, 11:46 PM
And do you really think Josh jumped from "can't get into the game until scrub time" to "36 minutes a game starter" over the summer?

Exactly. It's a ridiculous notion.

His play this summer league was as bad as I've seen since he's been here. He did not have a miraculous turnaround or we'd be hearing about Josh's big summer, along with Roy's.

Besides, 36 minutes? There aren't 40 players in the entire NBA that average that. Dwight Howard doesn't average that.

imawhat
10-02-2010, 11:48 PM
He played quite a bit in March and April, he was part of the regular rotation.

He played 13 minutes more than Hansbrough did this season. Give me a break.

O'Bird
10-02-2010, 11:59 PM
He played quite a bit in March and April, he was part of the regular rotation.

Good point. Talent alone did not win the confidence of the coaching staff; it was only after he started to deliver that he got more burn. Now it looks as though that was only the beginning.

But it sounds as though he's qualitatively improved in a couple of big areas, especially team defense; and his much-improved post defense has been mentioned specifically. His impressive number of hustle stats from the first three days speaks for itself; they don't just track those in training camp, either; you can bet that numbers like that would have got him more court time last year.

He was no great shakes as a rebounder last season, but it may be that O'Brien's comment means that he's getting the ones he wasn't before. He was especially weak on the defensive board last year, and with an excellent D rebounder in Murphy gone, more than one guy has got to step up. How about a top-ten defensive rebounding team this season?

Running the floor was already a strength last year, as was taking care of the ball; so it's not surprising that he's doing well in those areas; as coach said, he "doesn't turn the ball over at all". What's interesting is that it's by doing those, plus rebounding, that Josh is going to win court time for himself - since except for rebounding he's already good at them (this is called "player development").

The point has been made more than once by Jim that scoring is not what they're looking for out of him - but his improved stroke is not going to hurt, either (and remember that his jumper is what Bird said he needed to work on over the summer). Very pretty!

And, speaking of pretty, by golly did you see the nice move on the right block with the jump hook? Post game!

They were hoping for a breakthrough season for him (and given his age, a big breakthrough may be possible). I don't much like the expression "he gets it", since it so often means that you finally got over yourself; it might be better to say that "he's got it", since it's really a result of all the hard work he's put in.

Josh has had an unusual combination of athleticism and basketball IQ; you add hustle, as he's been doing so far, and refined skills like footwork and shooting mechanics, as he looks like he's done, and you've got a pretty interesting package.

____________

O'Bird
10-03-2010, 12:15 AM
I hadn't heard that. Thanks for transcribing.

That's encouraging news. Nice to read good things about George also.

Hardly anyone here has commented on what this means for Paul George - that is just as big a headline as the McRoberts promotion, though:

"Paul George had 36, Josh had 31 and nobody else had over 15 ...So that translates into extra possessions and if... I don't care if you're a rookie or what position you play, if those kind of stats... they don't lie. If you're being active like that, you're getting your hands on balls, you're stepping up and taking charges then you have to be on the basketball court."

If he keeps it up, this sounds like it means court time for Paul - even starting?!!

On Thursday, though, the ease with which Dunleavy up-faked him into the air and casually dribbled around him, seemingly in slow motion to make the wide-open shot while Paul was still coming down (slight exaggeration), should bring him down to earth for awhile. Love the hustle, but rookies always have got a long learning curve for D.

___________

Unclebuck
10-03-2010, 08:36 AM
Wouldn't it have been smarter to give him the experience though?

And do you really think Josh jumped from "can't get into the game until scrub time" to "36 minutes a game starter" over the summer?

Can't it be a combination of things. Sure he could have improved a lot, we have no one else any better right now.

Sure he would have ben better if he had played 36 minutes a game last season and Lance will be better next season if he plays 40 minutes a gain every game this season. But should Lance play 40 minutes a game this season???

Unclebuck
10-03-2010, 08:39 AM
He played 13 minutes more than Hansbrough did this season. Give me a break.

Josh was part of the regular rotation in March and April. Tyler was in street clothes from mid season on

I don't understand your point

TooBigNdaPaint
10-03-2010, 09:17 AM
Hardly anyone here has commented on what this means for Paul George - that is just as big a headline as the McRoberts promotion, though:

"Paul George had 36, Josh had 31 and nobody else had over 15 ...So that translates into extra possessions and if... I don't care if you're a rookie or what position you play, if those kind of stats... they don't lie. If you're being active like that, you're getting your hands on balls, you're stepping up and taking charges then you have to be on the basketball court."

If he keeps it up, this sounds like it means court time for Paul - even starting?!!

On Thursday, though, the ease with which Dunleavy up-faked him into the air and casually dribbled around him, seemingly in slow motion to make the wide-open shot while Paul was still coming down (slight exaggeration), should bring him down to earth for awhile. Love the hustle, but rookies always have got a long learning curve for D.

___________

Yeah, I saw those nice 'up fakes' that Dun-Dun gave Paul George but George will learn real quick that 'slow twitch' guys can ONLY get off their shot with 'up fakes' or 'double-pump fakes'. He'll quickly adjust like the entire NBA does with Dun-Dun. He'll learn that even if Dun-Dun gets in the air, George will still be able to rise up with his incredible length and block or deflect or alter Dun-Dun's shot. Dun-Dun copied Reggie Miller's game of moving without the ball to get an open look like many other 'slow-twitch' (but smart & savvy) NBA ballers.

TooBigNdaPaint
10-03-2010, 09:30 AM
Bottom line for this POST is that I'd say the same thing if I were JOB. I'm watching 2-3 days of practice and I say that IF we were playing a game TONITE, I would start McBob for at least 36 minutes. Hell, who else would he start?? He doesn't have his man-love (Murphy) anymore and Psycho-T is still limited to how much playing time he can handle. He only has McBob left on the roster who's in relatively good shape and just came off of Summer League play where he showed off his NEW and IMPROVED guns (shoulders and biceps). Now, at least, his body matches his nasty attitude when rebounding (offensive and defensive) and banging inside. In the past, he had the 'attitude' but real PFs in the league knew he couldn't back it up with his skinny arms and chest. I still have a 'desktop' pic of him putting back a rebound for a vicious dunk over Lamar Odom. I knew right then that McBob was for real. He just needed to be with a team that had a basketball 'strength coach' to build up his body to match his natural athleticism and nasty attitude. And, I really don't know if the Pacers have a strength coach but we should if we expect our front line to have any success.

vnzla81
10-03-2010, 10:36 AM
Josh was part of the regular rotation in March and April. Tyler was in street clothes from mid season on

I don't understand your point

That was the point

Brad8888
10-03-2010, 11:27 AM
Like imawhat, I saw a major decline in the performance of McRoberts during summer league. Josh, himself, came out and said he was not in physical condition to play summer league because he was shooting so much.

Now, magically, Josh not only got back what he lost but improved from being a bench player who got "rotation" minutes at the end of the season to a player who not only is a starter but that they anticipate being on the court as much as any Pacer? Somewhere there is a disconnect.

My guess is that Josh is hitting perimeter shots a little better now, but that is not the whole story.

More importantly, though, is the mutual feeling that probably exists between McRoberts and O'Brien that McRoberts actually matters as a potential contributing player now.

For McRoberts, he believes that he has an actual opportunity and has done exactly as he has been asked to do by the Pacers this offseason and has improved somewhat in the areas that he has been asked to focus on, being perimeter shooting and high post play, and likely has done so with vigor. This likely has also translated to Josh playing with even more energy than normal during camp so far because he feels like it will make more difference now than it has at any point during his NBA career.

For O'Brien, he knows he has to plug a huge hole in his offense somehow, and, not having a clone of Murphy, his perceptions have changed and he now values what Josh brings far more than he has in the past due to not having his dream "stretch 4". He probably would rather that he had a "stretch 4" to "space the court", but he has to live with it and make do.

I truly hope that McRoberts fulfills his promise and proves his doubters wrong because, outside of a healthy Granger, that is probably the main hope of the Pacers for significant improvement this season. Collison looks like a plug-in pg so far from what I have seen, Hibbert will improve some simply through maturity and being a little quicker, and hopefully Dunleavy will be back to being closer to his former self but may not get all the way there. But, significant improvement at the 4, which is a very important position in the O'B system, could have a profound impact on team performance in my opinion. Hopefully McRoberts is up for both the task of playing a different version of his position as well as the pressure to perform as an important piece of the Pacers entire roster.

Regardless, it will be very interesting to see how it shakes out.

pacer4ever
10-03-2010, 01:56 PM
Like imawhat, I saw a major decline in the performance of McRoberts during summer league. Josh, himself, came out and said he was not in physical condition to play summer league because he was shooting so much.

Now, magically, Josh not only got back what he lost but improved from being a bench player who got "rotation" minutes at the end of the season to a player who not only is a starter but that they anticipate being on the court as much as any Pacer? Somewhere there is a disconnect.

My guess is that Josh is hitting perimeter shots a little better now, but that is not the whole story.

More importantly, though, is the mutual feeling that probably exists between McRoberts and O'Brien that McRoberts actually matters as a potential contributing player now.

For McRoberts, he believes that he has an actual opportunity and has done exactly as he has been asked to do by the Pacers this offseason and has improved somewhat in the areas that he has been asked to focus on, being perimeter shooting and high post play, and likely has done so with vigor. This likely has also translated to Josh playing with even more energy than normal during camp so far because he feels like it will make more difference now than it has at any point during his NBA career.

For O'Brien, he knows he has to plug a huge hole in his offense somehow, and, not having a clone of Murphy, his perceptions have changed and he now values what Josh brings far more than he has in the past due to not having his dream "stretch 4". He probably would rather that he had a "stretch 4" to "space the court", but he has to live with it and make do.

I truly hope that McRoberts fulfills his promise and proves his doubters wrong because, outside of a healthy Granger, that is probably the main hope of the Pacers for significant improvement this season. Collison looks like a plug-in pg so far from what I have seen, Hibbert will improve some simply through maturity and being a little quicker, and hopefully Dunleavy will be back to being closer to his former self but may not get all the way there. But, significant improvement at the 4, which is a very important position in the O'B system, could have a profound impact on team performance in my opinion. Hopefully McRoberts is up for both the task of playing a different version of his position as well as the pressure to perform as an important piece of the Pacers entire roster.

Regardless, it will be very interesting to see how it shakes out.

his SL sucked did u watch the game where he went 1-10 from 3pt range lol. It was hard to watch. Then JOB said during his interview he wanted him to shoot that much lol. :mad:

Bball
10-03-2010, 02:35 PM
Ok, but is it possible that he was not ready to get playing time last season. maybe he's improved a ton over the summer

Well, if JOB rewards hard work and hard practice then maybe McRoberts is working hard to develop and improve into a consistent 3 point shooter!

Since86
10-04-2010, 01:38 PM
Look at the list on what he improved on. He improved on areas where playing time helps, like talking on defense, and knowing what position to be in.

It's not like Josh developed tenfold in his game, he improved in areas that don't require actual phsyical talent, but in areas that require heart.

Speed
10-04-2010, 02:13 PM
I think Josh is probably mentally more ready now than he's ever been, probably. I think you also have to look at Obie's option too at the moment.

Jeff you can't play big minutes, really will probably be most effective backing up Roy.

Solo inconsistent, we didn't hear a peep from him all offseason, may even be cut getting down to 15

Hansbrough, not really even cleared yet and his injury was brain related, so you know...

Magnum Rolle a rookie who's not ready.

Look I'm not saying McRoberts isn't ready or isn't going to play great, but really with the options, I'd be pumping up his confidence too, if I was the coach.

I remember too, Conrad Bruno speculating that Hansbrough might starting at PF by the Allstar break. Maybe that not just Bruno speculating, maybe it's what TPTB are thinking.

It really doesn't matter, it's McRoberts job, it's really a great opportunity for him. He has ability, he's still really young. One thing is we'll know more what his career curve is in the next couple of months, maybe, imo.

I'm just saying, maybe it's partly about McRoberts improving, maybe it's partly about what your options are. I completely believe that if Troy was still here, Obie and Troy would be Linus and his blanket, still.

Since86
10-04-2010, 02:25 PM
He actually has more options this year than he did last year, so the number of options shouldn't be a deciding factor.

When limited options came up last season, his solution was to play Mike Freaking Dunleavy at the 4 and leave Josh on the bench. And that move was right around the whole "Fire JO'b now" attitude really got legs, IIRC.

I would be willing to bet that JOb is pumping Josh up so highly to cover his own ***. Make it look like he improved by leaps and bounds and when you're asked why he didn't get any burn last year, you can rely on the whole "he wasn't this good last year excuse."

Players don't go home and work on the mindset to hustle, or go after every rebound, or be able to work on defensive rotations by themselves. As far as the first two go, you either do it or you don't. It's really not something you can practice, like you can practice free throws. You can practice technique, but not desire. As far as defensive rotations, that comes with experience and we all know you don't gain that by sitting on the bench.

MLB007
10-04-2010, 02:35 PM
I didn't say Lance was quick enough to match-up with the quick little 6'1" and below NBA guards!!! I was referring to those NBA games whereby he'd be matched up with bigger PGs in the NBA like John Walls at 6'4" (and his backup Kirk Hinrich at 6'4" plus Gilbert Areanas at 6'4" who's still listed as a PG), Tyreke Evans at 6'6", Deron Williams at 6'3", Baron Davis at 6'3", and Jason Kidd at 6'4" just to name a few of the bigger PGs in the league.

And, don't tell me that DC at 6'0" or TJ at 5'11" can handle the above listed bigger PGs. Lance has already shown an ability to play PG. His has an excellent handle to break down his man, has great court vision & passing ability, and he has the size to go to the rim and provide HELP DEFENSE (coming from behind to block shots like MJ did nearly game). Lance's unique size and abilities is exactly what LB visioned when he was STILL available at #40 in this year's draft.

He can't stay with those guys either. ;)

MLB007
10-04-2010, 02:46 PM
I think you are too focused on Lance's strongest attribute: Overpowering guards while he navigates to the rim.

I like that attribute as well and he is a great scorer...but I've seen enough from him to know his game is flawed pretty deeply on the defensive end.

He is simply never going to be quick enough to guard Rondo, Rose...and Wall will be a major mismatch. He has lead in his shoes and simply will be unable to keep in front of them. I also question whether he is smart enough to make the right game-time decisions and I am pretty certain he will not bring leadership to the PG position. BTW, arrogance is not the same as leadership. Just because he can overpower the average PG does not make him a good PG.

Yes, on offense, he will shine at times...but the bigs will not allow him to drive to the rim all the time. He's a strong guy, but this is the NBA and he's simply not that athletic. Dude will be eating some leather in traffic because he has no hops.

Exactly.
100%
The kid is incredibly shifty with the ball. Amazingly so given his lack of speed!
His jumper has looked better in the limited film highlights, that could be his saving grace, if he can at least demand 1/2 respect from there.
Otherwise, the guards will just sag off and make him shoot. Or if he does get around his man, it's going to take long enough (because they will be 3' off him) that the lane will have 2 or 3 very tall leapers there to contest those paint shots that he got off so easily in the SUMMER league. (non nba pg's and not much help defense)
He's not going to be able to play the same game against nba talent.
He has shown me more in the limited minutes of highlights than he did in the summer league.
He's improving, and that's hopeful.
But if he can't stay with 2's on defense (which is a HELL of a lot harder than being competitive on offense) he's dead in the water.