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View Full Version : The Pacers Need More PNR!



naptownmenace
09-23-2010, 05:20 PM
I just finished reading this blog article about the 1-5 Pick-and-Roll and with a quick and agile PG like Collison, the Pacers should definitely move towards more use of the PnR next season. It will be interesting to see if this is addressed or mentioned as something the Pacers are working on during training camp.

From the article two points stood out to me:

1. Teams like Utah, Chicago, and Orlando run the PnR about 60 times a game.
2. Most bigmen struggle to defend the PnR.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/19313/the-1-5-pick-and-roll-your-common-household-appliance

This article also has a link to another article that breaks down how Jameer Nelson and Dwight Howard are so successful with the PnR and includes video diagrams of the plays. To sum it up, the Orlando Magic was able to advance their way to the NBA Finals in 2009 mainly because of the PnR with Hedo Turkoglu and Dwight Howard.

http://www.magicbasketball.net/2010/08/19/playbook-the-15-pick-and-roll/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=playbook-the-15-pick-and-roll
For the Pacers to take that next step, their offense needs to better utilize the PnR. In recent seasons, the Pacers have used a lot of Pick-and-Pop plays with Danny, MDJ, or Murphy setting the pick at the top of the key but to best utilize Collison's abilities, the PnR would be the best way to go.

Do you think that O'brien will adjust the offense to fit Collison's strengths (they use a ton of PnR in New Orleans) and if so how do you think it would affect the other players production on the team?

Sookie
09-23-2010, 05:27 PM
I hope he adjusts it.

Last season, AJ was really the only PG efficient at the PnR. He was a rookie, and JOB probably assumed he wouldn't be playing him much.

This year, we have Collison and Price, and we know at least one of them will get to play (hopefully both) and it'd be smart to play the PnR, as both of them are good in it. It's pretty efficient and makes sense, I hope Jimmy does it.

Major Cold
09-23-2010, 06:04 PM
When Hans was playing, the pnr was starting to get utilized. I hope we see him and McRob running it.

pacer4ever
09-23-2010, 06:43 PM
ive been saying for awhile that pick and roll with hibbert magnum and T

judicata
09-23-2010, 07:00 PM
I think Josh has the potential to benefit the most from PNR since he has the physical tools to really make the opposing 4 pay if they are out of position.

O'Bird
09-23-2010, 07:04 PM
I just finished reading this blog article about the 1-5 Pick-and-Roll and with a quick and agile PG like Collison, the Pacers should definitely move towards more use of the PnR next season. It will be interesting to see if this is addressed or mentioned as something the Pacers are working on during training camp.

I agree, and I hope especially to also see some 1-4 action with Hansbrough.


For the Pacers to take that next step, their offense needs to better utilize the PnR. In recent seasons, the Pacers have used a lot of Pick-and-Pop plays with Danny, MDJ, or Murphy setting the pick at the top of the key but to best utilize Collison's abilities, the PnR would be the best way to go.

Or side pnr with Josh McRoberts. He'll have to get better at the 15-18 footer first, though, to keep the defense honest.


Do you think that O'brien will adjust the offense to fit Collison's strengths (they use a ton of PnR in New Orleans) and if so how do you think it would affect the other players production on the team?

New Orleans did run a lot of pick and x, more pop than roll; but they did a lot more pick and whatever with Chris Paul than with Collison. They were not great at getting a lot of stuff going to the rim with either point guard.

But...

Did you notice that in the recent 1070 interview Mike Dunleavy said that DC understands pick and roll basketball? Music to my ears.

_________

naptownmenace
09-24-2010, 10:57 AM
New Orleans did run a lot of pick and x, more pop than roll; but they did a lot more pick and whatever with Chris Paul than with Collison. They were not great at getting a lot of stuff going to the rim with either point guard.

But...

Did you notice that in the recent 1070 interview Mike Dunleavy said that DC understands pick and roll basketball? Music to my ears.

_________

That's definitely great stuff to hear.

I seem to remember several pick and roll play with DC and Okafor rolling to the hoop for easy baskets in his triple-double game last season against the Pacers. That might not be indicative of how much they normally ran those plays but he seemed very effective running them.

I think it's a great idea and will be disappointed if they don't run corner PnR in the majority of their halfcourt sets. DC has the shooting ability to make defenses pay if they go under the pick and the passing ability to hit the pick setter on the run if they try to trap him.

pacergod2
09-24-2010, 11:47 AM
I think we have three very capable players in the pick and roll offensively. McRoberts probably finishes the best of the three PF's, Hans and Rolle included. I think Hans sets the best picks of just about anybody in the NBA. He can hit the mid range and he can draw fouls getting to the rim. He will be in position for his own misses or to dump off to Hibbert. Rolle from what I hear, has an excellent mid range shot as well. He is extremely long and athletic and makes me think his body type is more conducive to rolling to the basket with an athletic move, such as an alley oop.

Sookie's point was excellent. Price was by far our best PnR PG last year. I think he sees the openings in the pick and roll extremely well. He is a very good passer, IMO and is a good enough ball handler to play within his abilities and take advantage of the defense. Between he and Collison, we should be running a hell of a lot more PnR. It will also help us in defending it, if we can understand it thoroughly on offense. We may have been the worst defensive team in the league last year in defending the pick and roll. That is not based on stats, just my opinion. We also have a lot more athleticism in our front court rotation this year however.

JMO

MLB007
09-24-2010, 05:12 PM
I think they need more cowbell...................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4royOLtvmQ

naptownmenace
10-06-2010, 03:41 PM
With recent talk of whether or not DC will be used in the PnR, his preferred style, I thought I'd bump this thread with an interesting article about the advantages running the PnR brings. This will also be good to revisit throughout the preseason to see if the Pacers are utilizing it and if it's an improvement over their offense from last year (or at least I hope you guys think it's interesting enough to do so).

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/sports/basketball/20pick.html


The Pick-and-Roll Is the N.B.A.’s Old Reliable
Avi Gerver for The New York Times


By JONATHAN ABRAMS
Published: November 19, 2009

With the basketball in his hands, Orlando’s Jameer Nelson performs the two-man two-step that the Magic and the entire N.B.A. have sought to perfect.

Easy to Run, Tough to Defend

His eyes dart, his mind absorbs, his feet react as his teammate Dwight Howard sets a pick and rolls to the basket, initiating a chain reaction designed to produce defensive mayhem.

No other play in the N.B.A. creates such havoc, no other play is used as often.

The basic pick-and-roll is the bread and butter of the N.B.A., with two teammates working in conjunction on offense, with one player dribbling the ball and the other standing still and trying to block the path of the ball handler’s defender. As all hoopsters know, once the pick, or screen, is carried out, the ball handler can pursue several options: pass the ball to his teammate who set the pick and is now rolling toward the basket or another space on the floor; take a shot himself; drive to the basket; or pass the ball to another teammate who may be open.

“When it comes down to it, that’s what we’re going to be in when the game’s on the line,” Magic Coach Stan Van Gundy said of basketball’s most reliable play. “I say it all the time: I don’t care how good you are, you can’t take away everything.”

The pick-and-roll is the play of choice for some of the league’s best players, like New Orleans’s Chris Paul, Phoenix’s Steve Nash, Miami’s Dwyane Wade and Cleveland’s LeBron James. The league’s dependence on the play is steadily increasing, according to a five-year analysis by Synergy Sports Technology, which logs every N.B.A. game, providing analytics to nearly every team. Use of the pick-and-roll rose to 18.6 percent of the league’s total plays last season from 15.6 percent in 2004-5, when Synergy began tracking it.

The N.B.A. has largely turned away from relying on power players in favor of up-tempo offense. The pick-and-roll allows that, while creating offensive opportunities early in the 24-second shot clock. N.B.A. rule changes have encouraged pick-and-rolls, cracking down on defensive hand checks that could slow players like Nelson.

The Synergy analysis created a statistical portrait of the play’s use in the N.B.A. and revealed the following:

¶The Utah Jazz and the Los Angeles Lakers used the play the least in the N.B.A. last season. Only 11 percent of their offensive plays originated with the pick-and-roll.

¶With Wade as the main conduit, the Miami Heat used the pick-and-roll the most in last year’s regular season. The play originated in 26 percent of its total offense. The Heat was followed by the San Antonio Spurs (25 percent) and the Nets (24 percent). The Knicks (surprisingly given Mike D’Antoni’s fondness for disrupting defenses) placed 24th over all at 16 percent.

Nelson, who is currently sidelined for at least a month with a knee injury, was the most effective pick-and-roll player last season, according to Synergy. He averaged 1.15 points in offense generated for either himself or a teammate each time he ran the pick-and-roll during an injury-shortened regular season. James was second at 1.1. Paul posted a 1.08. Nash had a 1.06.

“It’s sort of like a fast break where you get a numbers advantage,” said Garrick Barr, who is the chief executive of Synergy and who previously spent 11 years as the Suns’ video coordinator. “Pick-and-rolls create a halfcourt advantage.”

As teams rely more on the pick-and-roll, the traditional post-up game has diminished. The number of offensive plays derived from post-ups dropped in the same five years from 13.4 percent to 10.7 percent last season, according to the report.

Perhaps the most enlightening revelation in all this is that the Jazz uses the pick-and-roll so sparingly. Deron Williams and Carlos Boozer are viewed as extensions of John Stockton and Karl Malone, the retired Utah stars who became the pick-and-roll’s most notable tandem in the N.B.A. Jerry Sloan coached both pairs of players, but Utah’s offense now revolves around cuts and reads.

“Everybody just associates pick-and-rolls with us because of John and Karl,” Williams said. “They ran it out a lot, but similar to us. We run it toward the end of the game when we need baskets, but we try to execute our offense first.”

Sloan said: “You’ve got to learn how to play other ways than just strictly pick-and-roll. Most of the time, other guys are just standing in the pick-and-roll. We try to run other stuff where they’re not standing and stay active in other parts of the game.”

Meanwhile, the Lakers use Coach Phil Jackson’s triangle offense to spread the floor. He has two traditional power players in Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum, and most of Kobe Bryant’s offense is generated through isolation plays. The pick-and-roll is not much of a factor.

But over all, the Synergy numbers confirm what many in the N.B.A. have witnessed. Offenses now spread defenses thin with mobile big men, quick point guards and long-distance shooters. The pick-and-roll is the orchestrator of all that.

It is also the formula that the Magic used as it made its way to the N.B.A. finals last season. The pick-and-roll allows Howard, the game’s most athletic center, to gain position in the post on the move.

“That way, he can step in and get the ball deep in the post and step in and score,” Nelson said. “And we can use it for our shooters to create shots for others and myself.”

N.B.A. teams use various methods to combat the pick-and-roll, although none are highly effective.

The defender guarding the ball handler can squeeze past the player setting the pick to stay with the ball handler (known as going over the pick). He can also try to avoid the pick by running behind the pick and then resume guarding the ball handler once he moves past the screen (known as going under the pick).

The two defenders can also switch whom they are guarding, with the taller defender momentarily defending the smaller ball handler and trying to hinder his vision before hurrying back to the player who set the pick. Or the defender guarding the ball handler can try to direct him away from the pick before it can take place.

The strategy varies team to team, night to night. The Synergy analysis showed that defenses were most effective when the on-ball defender went under the pick, temporarily abandoning the ball handler and then picking him up again. For example, when the defender went under the pick against James, he averaged 0.93 points. When James was played over the pick, he averaged 1.02 points.

Yet a majority of teams played over the pick. They defended that way, Barr said, to show defensive aggressiveness instead of passiveness, even if it hurt them in the long run.

With effective teams, the defensive strategies are limited. There are just too many options with the pick-and-roll, too many height and quickness mismatches for the offense to take advantage of. The defensive thought process turns simple, if futile. Sometimes, it just hopes that the team running the pick-and-roll misses whatever shot it chooses to take.

“If it’s Tim Duncan rolling to the basket, you want to take Tim Duncan away with your help,” Philadelphia 76ers Coach Eddie Jordan said. “Now, if you have Tony Parker and Tim Duncan, you have to stop the ball, which is Tony Parker, and you’ve got to give help, so you’re leaving somebody open. Probably, Manu Ginobili for a 3. You have to pick your poison.”

Kegboy
10-06-2010, 03:56 PM
All I know is I need more PBR if I'm actually going to watch them this year.

:alcohol:

naptownmenace
10-06-2010, 04:06 PM
All I know is I need more PBR if I'm actually going to watch them this year.

:alcohol:

The entire team has been changed from 2005 except for Foster and Granger and are you still not going to watch them?

At the risk of derailing my own thread... what's your beef with the Pacers? Is it Bird? I honestly don't remember.

TooBigNdaPaint
10-06-2010, 04:44 PM
The PnR will ONLY work if the two players running are both proficient scorers or shooters. Both AJ and Earl didn't shoot a high enough percentage last year to even warrant running the PnR. Also, Hibbert wasn't a proficient scorer at the rim nor appeared athletic enough to play the PnR last year. This summer, however, he's displaying more double moves, cat-like quickness, and attacks the rim more aggressively. With Hibbert more proficient in the paint and shooting well out to 18 feet, we now have several players (i.e. DC, Danny, Dun-Dun, George, Magnum, and Lance) that can play the PnR with Hibbert. Hell, JOB's motion offense may NOW actually run as designed with all of our athletic players who can score in a variety of ways and defend at a high level. In fact, I'll go out on the limb and drink the koolaid and say that we'll win 48 games or more this year!!! Go Pacers!!!

Ozwalt72
10-06-2010, 04:53 PM
Dunleavy and Foster have worked their 2 man PNR game fairly well in the past. Yes, Foster isn't a scorer by any means. That doesn't mean he doesn't know how to move. I remember 07-08...those two were very effective using it.

So don't count out Dunleavy and Foster, or Collison and Foster working the pnr. When you have a lineup of Collison, Rush, Dunleavy, Granger and Foster out there, it would be a pretty good idea to let Foster do the one thing he does fairly well as chances are the defense is focusing on more capable scorers. If they fall inside, collison kicks it out for an open three.

TooBigNdaPaint
10-06-2010, 05:10 PM
Dunleavy and Foster have worked their 2 man PNR game fairly well in the past. Yes, Foster isn't a scorer by any means. That doesn't mean he doesn't know how to move. I remember 07-08...those two were very effective using it.

So don't count out Dunleavy and Foster, or Collison and Foster working the pnr. When you have a lineup of Collison, Rush, Dunleavy, Granger and Foster out there, it would be a pretty good idea to let Foster do the one thing he does fairly well as chances are the defense is focusing on more capable scorers. If they fall inside, collison kicks it out for an open three.

If I see BOTH Foster and Dun-Dun out there together starting....I'll puke. I like both of them but we don't need two slow-twitch guys on the court at one time. Foster couldn't handle the banging with Marc Gasol for extended minutes nor can he defend the rim as well as Hibbert or Magnum. Dun-Dun needs to play with an athletic foursome to provide 'help-defense' because the opposing offense will be attacking Dun-Dun on every offensive possession (if their coaching staff has a collective brain). If JOB had to start his veterans, I'd prefer to see Hibbert, McBob, Danny, Brandon (or Dun-Dun), and Collision start the game. But, my real near future starting lineup would be: Hibbert, Magnum, Danny, George, and DC with Dun-Dun or Brandon as our sixth man. Everybody else gets on the court based on situations or matchups or foul trouble.

McKeyFan
10-06-2010, 05:14 PM
Is McBob "fast twitch"?

Just wondering.

Ozwalt72
10-06-2010, 05:15 PM
If I see BOTH Foster and Dun-Dun out there together starting....I'll puke.

I know what you mean. Playing our worst defender (that we've seen play) with our best interior defender is just a horrible idea!

Kegboy
10-06-2010, 08:03 PM
The entire team has been changed from 2005 except for Foster and Granger and are you still not going to watch them?

At the risk of derailing my own thread... what's your beef with the Pacers? Is it Bird? I honestly don't remember.

It's not the players at all. It's just been the last couple years. I've tried watching, but I can't stand Jimmy's system. This year will hopefully be different. I loved Collison in college, Murphy being gone is a huge plus, and the games finally being in HD can't hurt. But I hate watching 130-125 games just as much as I hated 70-65 games under Carlisle. Emphasizing one end of the court and completely ignoring the other end just doesn't work for me. At least Carlisle won. I can put up with winning ugly, but I'm not giving 2 hours a night to watch losing ugly.