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View Full Version : Spot in Rotation for Ford? / Dahntay on block?



MyFavMartin
09-21-2010, 10:27 AM
Mentioned in hoopshype and buried at indystar.com.
by Mike Wells

http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsider/2010/09/20/the-pacers-want-to-get-rolleing/

The Pacers want to get Rolle(ing)

THE ‘BURBS – Not much has changed with Magnum Rolle and the Pacers.

The Pacers still want to sign their second-round pick.

In order to do that, though, they’ve got to find a way to clear a roster spot.

The Pacers will have to do a two-for-one trade (or release a player) since they’ve already got 15 players under contract. That may not happen until training camp starts and teams get a better look at their roster. Point guard A.J. Price has a non-guaranteed contract, but the Pacers plan to keep him.

Some of you have asked if the Pacers can sign Rolle to a guaranteed contract right now.

Yes they can. They just have to be down to the maximum of 15 players by the league’s mandatory date in late October.

The Pacers will likely look to move one of their wing players.

It wouldn’t surprising if Dahntay Jones (and T.J. Ford) is the player they look to trade. Jones doesn’t fit coach Jim O’Brien’s playing style.

O’Brien made that known when he said he likes players that can “space the court” with the 3-point shot after Jones went through a stretch of several DNP-CD’s late last season.

This isn’t breaking news, Jones is not known for his 3-point shooting (4-of-32 last season).

********************

Speaking of Ford, he’s been told that he’ll have a chance to earn a spot in the rotation, according to a source.

We’ll see if that holds true.

O’Brien and Ford’s relationship has been a disaster.

The coach took his point guard out the rotation for 18 games in late December. Ford got back in the rotation when he played well in the two games Earl Watson missed for personal reasons.

A groin injury in early March shut Ford down for the rest of the season.

Ford could end up being a wild card in the Pacers point guard situation because Lance Stephenson still has a legal situation hanging over him and A.J. Price is working his way back from knee surgery.

**********************

The Pacers have completed their training camp roster.

Lance Allred, who is legally deaf, will be the 17th player in training camp. The Pacers need help in the frontcourt because of injuries to Tyler Hansbrough and Jeff Foster.

31andonly
09-21-2010, 10:35 AM
It wouldn’t surprising if Dahntay Jones (and T.J. Ford) is the player they look to trade. Jones doesn’t fit coach Jim O’Brien’s playing style.



I'm not a big fan of trading a player just because he doesn't fit the playing style of a coach who is in the last year of coaching the team.

Speed
09-21-2010, 10:40 AM
If D Jones is seen as sweetner to move TJ, I'm in. If D Jones can bring back a starting caliber PF, I'm in. If D Jones just can't hit 3s and doesn't fit Obie's 10/11 season style of coaching, I'm out. Obie being here past this year, to me, is highly unlikely.

ChicagoJ
09-21-2010, 11:33 AM
Dahntay Jones just isn't that good of player. Maybe his inability to shoot the ball (period) is the #1 reason he was out of the lineup -- a decision that is fine by me even O'Brien does other things I don't like. For another coach, he'd just get a chance to prove yet again why he's just barely good enough to be in the rotation, but bad enough to play his way out of the rotation.

Dhantay Jones won't get traded, though. He's not in demand. There will be more of a market for TJ Ford when a team has a PG go down to injury than there will be for Dhantay Jones ever.

OakMoses
09-21-2010, 11:40 AM
D. Jones is entirely unnecessary right now. I've got nothing against him (though I don't love his game), but if I'm picking wings for next season he might be last. Other than the first 5 games when Rush is out, I don't see any reason I'd play Dahntay over any wing on the roster. If we can trade him for a 2nd round pick to make a roster spot for Rolle I'd consider it a good move. If we're going to move Dun or Rush or cut Lance or Posey retires, then I have no problem keeping him. I just don't see a consistent rotation spot for him right now.

Ford being able to compete for a roster spot is mind-boggling. I hope it's a rigged competition. Something along the lines of "Now that we've got Collison and Price, we're going to run a lot of pick and roll. If you can run the PnR better than either of those guys, then we've got some minutes for you."

If this is a legit. report, the likely role for Ford is going to be scoring guard off the bench. This will likely drive everyone on this board nuts as he'll probably be on the floor with either Collison or AJ.

Speed
09-21-2010, 11:59 AM
On D. Jones, I think he is an overated defender unless you play him on 2 guards. Even then he's not a lockdown guy, just good. I suppose there is hope that some GM sees him as a shut down corner type and will give good value in a trade. I'm not against trading him, just not for the reason of fit with the coach.

As for the Ford rotation thing, not sure what to make of that, it makes sense to showcase him, if possible. I'd guess that ship may have sailed though. Otherwise, TJ may be the 2nd Point Guard by default. Not sure how healthy AJ is. Pretty sure you can't play Lance until the other matters are settled one way or another, imo.

MLB007
09-21-2010, 12:14 PM
I'm not a big fan of trading a player just because he doesn't fit the playing style of a coach who is in the last year of coaching the team.

Yeh, I love what Dahntay brings. If you have 4 other scorers on the floor it could work.
If you had a pg that likes to push it could work. ;)

Sookie
09-21-2010, 12:38 PM
On D. Jones, I think he is an overated defender unless you play him on 2 guards. Even then he's not a lockdown guy, just good. I suppose there is hope that some GM sees him as a shut down corner type and will give good value in a trade. I'm not against trading him, just not for the reason of fit with the coach.

As for the Ford rotation thing, not sure what to make of that, it makes sense to showcase him, if possible. I'd guess that ship may have sailed though. Otherwise, TJ may be the 2nd Point Guard by default. Not sure how healthy AJ is. Pretty sure you can't play Lance until the other matters are settled one way or another, imo.

AJ can play, that makes him a better alternative.

This actually concerns me. TJ's the lone vet. We know Obie doesn't give a crap about how people play in practice (seeing as AJ apparently outplayed both Watson and TJ there) or in games (seeing as AJ blantanly outperformed TJ there and you could argue Watson)

So there's a possibility that Darren and AJ get to compete for backup PG. Doesn't make sense. TJ's the worst point option on the team..but wouldn't be out of character for JOB.

BBQ
09-21-2010, 12:44 PM
Yeh, I love what Dahntay brings. If you have 4 other scorers on the floor it could work.
If you had a pg that likes to push it could work. ;)

I'm in agreement with this. I wondered last season if Dahntay was trying to do too much. I remember early on he was playing way above his potential. I wonder if that experience led Dahntay to play outside of himself, and in the end have not such a good finish to the season.

Maybe on a team where there is a cohesive plan and well defined rolls, he would perform better. The guy isn't a sure-thing defensive stopper, but he isn't Mike Dunleavy either. I kind of like having him if I have to play Miami in the playoffs every year.

Speed
09-21-2010, 01:01 PM
AJ can play, that makes him a better alternative.


Is he not restricted at this point? Even if he's not restricted is he 100% back? Maybe that's not what you mean.

Sookie
09-21-2010, 01:13 PM
Is he not restricted at this point? Even if he's not restricted is he 100% back? Maybe that's not what you mean.

he's back on the court, Larry said he's not 100%, but he's playing on the court. (Although, Perhaps he's not technically cleared to play. I guess, that would be weird though. I'd assume "yea, he's not 100%" just means he has to work his way up to it even though he's playing.) I'd assume that means he's cleared to play, just not able to play at 100% of his abilities. (and he should be there soon. The ACL was the same way. He was cleared to play, just didn't have "everything" back to normal yet.)

Regardless, so long as it's not a health risk, he's a better alternative than Ford. (as is Collison obviously) And I don't think that's what JOB meant anyways.

Granted, I guess JOB can't tell a player "yea, no matter what you do, you aren't going to play" even if it's true. And I'll say this, even if TJ outplays Collison and Price in camp and during preseason (lol) it's still a bad idea to give him minutes over the other two.

Also, with DJones. I liked him a lot last season. I thought he was the best leadership presence from a Vet. He's a bit of a black hole on offense, but that comes from having a nonstructured free for all offense. Give him his roll a little more clearly, and he'd be a definite asset. And I'd much rather have him.

Trophy
09-21-2010, 01:32 PM
Ford and Dahntay should only be playing if we really need them to.

Neither of these guys should be starting unless everyone at that position is inactive.

The regular rotation at PG should be Collison/Price and SG Dunleavy/Rush (George)

O'Bird
09-21-2010, 01:38 PM
AJ can play, that makes him a better alternative.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean - there's in fact a question whether he is able to play because of his injury. If you're saying that Ford can't play, as in, he's so lousy that he's in the wrong league, well, I wouldn't go that far. Clearly the coaching staff had the confidence in AJ to give him some meaningful minutes last year. He's a very good defender and that's a high priority for the Pacers.


This actually concerns me. TJ's the lone vet. We know Obie doesn't give a crap about how people play in practice ...

!

We KNOW that? Come on.


So there's a possibility that Darren and AJ get to compete for backup PG. Doesn't make sense. TJ's the worst point option on the team..but wouldn't be out of character for JOB.

Can't follow your reasoning here. For two years the starting job was TJ's for the taking, and instead Obie platooned him with Jack or Watson, gave his minutes to a rookie, or simply relegated him to DNP-CD purgatory. The reports of tension between the two men sound credible to me, but in any case it's obvious that his coach is not sold on Ford's game. Why would it be "in character" to play a guy he clearly doesn't like having on the floor?

O'Brien wants the ball to move; it's not that TJ won't pass it, but he disappears off the ball when he does, dominates it and holds it too long when he has it, creates plenty of shots for himself but doesn't make a lot of them, over-penetrates and gets caught with nowhere to go, is one of the more turnover-prone points in the league... and that's just offense.

Now that there's an alternative, what would clearly be in Jim O'Brien's character, as you put it, would be to have Collison start and play a lot of minutes, and for Ford to compete with Price for backup minutes.

I think there'll be three point guards. I think that Jim O'Brien and Larry Bird would like to start this coming season without the services of TJ Ford.

_____________________

pacer4ever
09-21-2010, 01:41 PM
Ford and Dahntay should only be playing if we really need them to.

Neither of these guys should be starting unless everyone at that position is inactive.

The regular rotation at PG should be Collison/Price and SG Dunleavy/Rush (George)

ya tj just turns the ball over to much. He doesnt shoot the ball well and he is the farthest thing from a team player.

Eleazar
09-21-2010, 01:48 PM
If D Jones is seen as sweetner to move TJ, I'm in. If D Jones can bring back a starting caliber PF, I'm in. If D Jones just can't hit 3s and doesn't fit Obie's 10/11 season style of coaching, I'm out. Obie being here past this year, to me, is highly unlikely.

My opinion exactly.

CableKC
09-21-2010, 01:55 PM
If D Jones is seen as sweetner to move TJ, I'm in. If D Jones can bring back a starting caliber PF, I'm in. If D Jones just can't hit 3s and doesn't fit Obie's 10/11 season style of coaching, I'm out. Obie being here past this year, to me, is highly unlikely.
The only PF that I think that we would get if all that was offered was TJ and Inferno would be Elton Brand....basically a mistake of a contract type PF.

Psyren
09-21-2010, 02:12 PM
The only PF that I think that we would get if all that was offered was TJ and Inferno would be Elton Brand....basically a mistake of a contract type PF.
:mad::cry::blush::censored::mad::cry::blush:

The only feelings I would have if we ever ended up with Brand.

Granted I understand you were just saying that's all we would get, which is probably right IMO, but just seeing Brand's name made me want to vomit :D haha

CableKC
09-21-2010, 02:31 PM
:mad::cry::blush::censored::mad::cry::blush:

The only feelings I would have if we ever ended up with Brand.

Granted I understand you were just saying that's all we would get, which is probably right IMO, but just seeing Brand's name made me want to vomit :D haha
The only PFs that would be available are the "contract" mistakes.

Justin tyme has been suggestion Jason Thompson...but I think the asking price is going to be more then we can afford.

Yeah...my whole point is that there is a very small market of Starting PF and potential Starting PFs that is available. Factor in that if our best offer price involves some combination of Expiring+Inferno ( maybe ) + Brush ( maybe ) and I just don't see anything to get excited about.

I'd rather make a "consolidate our roster" move through some "2fer1" deal ( just to make room for Magnum while not significantly impacting our SalaryCap for 2011 ) with Expiring Contracts then trade for a Long-Term PF that may not be worth getting and/or any real answer.

count55
09-21-2010, 02:34 PM
Ford is probably being told by both Bird and O'Brien that - if he's here - he'll be given a shot at a rotation spot. Probably all that means is that they will neither release him nor banish him. However, I suspect that all three guys know that (barring injury) in order for Ford to get minutes, he's going to have to alter his game and do what he's thus far hasn't done - fit into the offense. I don't think any of the three believe that's a very large possibility.

Re: Dahntay - I think this exchange from the March 12 game sums it up: (I had tweeted them at the time.)



Mark on Dahntay "He just hasn't been able to do (defend) what he was brought here to do."

Slick on Dahntay "When the ball gets to him, the offense stops" then, "At the defensive end, let's face it, he's overrated." Friday, March 12, 2010 9:49:40 PM via web

Ultimately, Dahntay's just not a very good basketball player. There are lots and lots of systems where he wouldn't fit. Let's face it. A shooting guard that can't shooting isn't going to be in high demand from any coach.

He's a 15 minute a night energy and hustle guy who was OK when you surrounded him with Denver's talent, but really doesn't bring enough to the less talented Pacers. Factor in the fact that you'd really like to see Granger, Rush, and Paul George play ahead of him at the wing - and possibly even Lance Stephenson (if he stays), and that he's cheap and marginally more tradeable than a Ford or Dunleavy, and you have a much more compelling set of reasons for Dahntay to be on the block than the relatively lazy "he doesn't shoot threes."

Psyren
09-21-2010, 02:34 PM
The only PFs that would be available are the "contract" mistakes.

Justin tyme has been suggestion Jason Thompson...but I think the asking price is going to be more then we can afford.

Yeah...my whole point is that there is a very small market of Starting PF and potential Starting PFs that is available. Factor in that if our best offer price involves some combination of Expiring+Inferno ( maybe ) + Brush ( maybe ) and I just don't see anything to get excited about.

I'd rather make a "consolidate our roster" move through some "2fer1" deal ( just to make room for Magnum while not significantly impacting our SalaryCap for 2011 ) with Expiring Contracts then trade for a Long-Term PF that may not be worth getting and/or any real answer.
I agree entirely. I'd love to have Thompson as well, but I just don't see anyway to work out a deal with them without taking bad Udrih who I'd prefer to stay away from.

ChristianDudley
09-21-2010, 03:35 PM
Jim O'Brien needs to go, not Dahntay Jones.

cdash
09-21-2010, 03:58 PM
Jim O'Brien needs to go, not Dahntay Jones.

They both need to go. Ford too.

O'Bird
09-21-2010, 04:05 PM
Also, with DJones. I liked him a lot last season. I thought he was the best leadership presence from a Vet.

I thought so, too, and that is certainly one of the reasons they got him, especially on the defensive end where you need people talking and keeping the effort up. John Hollinger thought that his contract was one of the worst of the off-season, but I think that Larry was buying things that Hollinger wasn't accounting for - and got them.


He's a bit of a black hole on offense...

Especially after the first month, defenses were daring him to shoot. With today's rules, a good defense can keep getting the ball in the wrong guy's hands, and the Pacers' offense wasn't good enough to keep it out, but Dahntay's not selfish and knows that he's not a star.


but that comes from having a nonstructured free for all offense.

It was not anything of the kind. I've heard that asserted around here before, recently, and since I responded at length then I don't have much appetite to rehash it so soon (let's get on to something more interesting, at long last). Suffice it to say that the Pacers run a motion offense, and like all motion offenses you can run plays out of the basic sets to set up a specific player for a shot, which the Pacers do. Like all motion offenses, there are rules to follow as to when and where you pass, dribble, cut, screen, etc.

As to whether Dahntay will be traded: it's possible; but it's unlikely that they're looking to do it. It's not a lot of money, and what he was bringing to the team he was bringing in practice and the locker room, where it was most needed.

I don't think that Mike Wells has a very good feel for these things, frankly.

_____________

Justin Tyme
09-21-2010, 04:05 PM
He's a 15 minute a night energy and hustle guy who was OK when you surrounded him with Denver's talent, but really doesn't bring enough to the less talented Pacers.


Then why did Bird put forth such a great effort to sign a player that doesn't fit? IIRC, Bird said Dahntay was the 1st FA he wanted to talk to when FA opened up to other teams. Sounds like you are saying Bird made a poor choice by not understanding the type player Dahntay really was, and that Dahntay didn't/doesn't fit with the Pacers team then or now.

Justin Tyme
09-21-2010, 04:13 PM
Jim O'Brien needs to go, not Dahntay Jones.


Currently as it stands I have no great aspirations or expectations for the Pacers team this season with or w/o Jimmy. I'm looking forward to seeing DC, PG, and Hibbert play, but not much else. Hope, I'm pleasantly surprised this season by the Pacers play, but I'm not optimistic about it at the present time.

ChristianDudley
09-21-2010, 04:31 PM
I don't know why people here just don't like Dahntay. Please, somebody tell me why. Sure he can't hit 3s at a high rate like some players can (he's around Quis' % or less), but what else other than that do people here not like about him?? I tell you, as soon as JOB is gone, we'll see the real Dahntay Jones who can guard the best of them, and totally frustrate the hell out of players such as Kobe. I really don't want to let a gem like Dahntay go just to get rid of him, and I truly mean that.

Sookie
09-21-2010, 04:44 PM
I'm not entirely sure what you mean - there's in fact a question whether he is able to play because of his injury. If you're saying that Ford can't play, as in, he's so lousy that he's in the wrong league, well, I wouldn't go that far. Clearly the coaching staff had the confidence in AJ to give him some meaningful minutes last year. He's a very good defender and that's a high priority for the Pacers.


I answered this earlier, but there was an article basically saying that AJ was back on the court, but not 100%. So as long as it's not a health risk to AJ, he's a better pg, and a better option then Ford. (And Collison is too, but he doesn't have the health concern.)
!


We KNOW that? Come on.

Did you miss that exchange last season. According to Obrien, Price outplayed both Watson and Ford during Practice. "Gets the best of the Veterans" was I think the words.

Then..unless you missed it as well, AJ also pretty badly outplayed Ford in Games. And you could argue he outplayed Watson there too. But when it was all said and done, AJ got a month of playing time, then Ford was reinstated..just because Jimmy felt like it..until Ford injured himself again.

I'd also wager, that more than likely, Josh outplayed Dun and Dahntay at the PF positions during practice as well. I don't know, as Jimmy never said anything about it..but I'd say it's a logical guess.

Whoever outplayed the other, between Collison and Price, I'd guess would be who Jimmy played, but when you add a vet to the mix, even if that vet is TJ, things get muddled.



Can't follow your reasoning here. For two years the starting job was TJ's for the taking, and instead Obie platooned him with Jack or Watson, gave his minutes to a rookie, or simply relegated him to DNP-CD purgatory. The reports of tension between the two men sound credible to me, but in any case it's obvious that his coach is not sold on Ford's game. Why would it be "in character" to play a guy he clearly doesn't like having on the floor?


Now that there's an alternative, what would clearly be in Jim O'Brien's character, as you put it, would be to have Collison start and play a lot of minutes, and for Ford to compete with Price for backup minutes.


Yea, it's obvious that he's not sold on Ford's game.

But it's also obvious that JOB hates to play young guys. And for him, the choice between "two evils" tends to be "go with the vet."

It would not be in JOB's character to give the starting spot to Collison. A second year player who doesn't know his system. Not at all. People assume that Collison is going to get the starting spot, I haven't heard Jim say that. I've heard Jim say to cool the expectations on Collison because "he was just a rookie." (Which is the truth) And then I heard Jim go and praise a player who was a useless vet last season. (Posey.) And now I'm hearing TJ will get a shot in the rotation.

Now obviously, we've also learned we can't trust a word Jim says. But I won't be suprised if our starting lineup for the first game is TJ, Dun, Granger, Posey, Hibbert. (And I don't expect that to last, because inevitably, O'brien will get sick of TJ.)

But starting Collison..a young player..a new player..a player who hasn't yet learned that in order to get minutes you should probably take a large amount of threes..no, it's not in JOB's character at all to start him.

Also, I want to address the offense/free flowing statement. It is free flowing. They have their "get a quick shot" guide, but after that, everyone just stands still and expects the person with the ball to do something. Typically leading to a lot of decision making for the PG (which isn't good in TJ's case..) If this is a motion offense, it's being very poorly executed. (Or at least it was last season. I didn't watch the season before.)

McKeyFan
09-21-2010, 05:20 PM
Dahntay Jones brought a tough, physical, let's ratchet up the intensity mindset to the Pacers early last year (yes, the Five Game Win Streak).

Bird brough Dahntay in because JOB said he needed more defense. Then JOB decided he didn't like Dahntay and he loved Murph. Whatever. I rather see the team play the right way and lose by five then play the JOB/Murph way and lose by three.

I have to sit through another season of this exasperating coach. I must be a true fan.

I'd like to see Dahntay and a healthy Hans on the floor together. That could get interesting.

CableKC
09-21-2010, 05:23 PM
I'd like to see BRush, Dahntay and a healthy Hans on the floor together playing under a different Coach/System. That could get interesting.
Fixed.

CableKC
09-21-2010, 05:28 PM
Ultimately, Dahntay's just not a very good basketball player. There are lots and lots of systems where he wouldn't fit. Let's face it. A shooting guard that can't shooting isn't going to be in high demand from any coach.

He's a 15 minute a night energy and hustle guy who was OK when you surrounded him with Denver's talent, but really doesn't bring enough to the less talented Pacers. Factor in the fact that you'd really like to see Granger, Rush, and Paul George play ahead of him at the wing - and possibly even Lance Stephenson (if he stays), and that he's cheap and marginally more tradeable than a Ford or Dunleavy, and you have a much more compelling set of reasons for Dahntay to be on the block than the relatively lazy "he doesn't shoot threes."
You mention System when it comes to Inferno. Most indications before in Denver was that he was at least a solid defender....but now...playing for JO'B...he's not.

I don't know enough about basketball to know whether he truly is a good defender or not. Your post seems to suggest that he would fit in some systems while not fitting in others. Just like how many think that BRush would probably benefit from playing in a different offensive/defensive System ( specifically not for JO'B ), do you think that Inferno could benefit the same?

Or is it that you've seen enough to determine that he's simply not as "advertised".

count55
09-21-2010, 05:32 PM
Then why did Bird put forth such a great effort to sign a player that doesn't fit? IIRC, Bird said Dahntay was the 1st FA he wanted to talk to when FA opened up to other teams. Sounds like you are saying Bird made a poor choice by not understanding the type player Dahntay really was, and that Dahntay didn't/doesn't fit with the Pacers team then or now.

No, he understood pretty much exactly who he was, and the contract, though long, pays basically what you pay for a 15-20 minute energy guy. It's likely that as players like Hibbert, Collison, and hopefully George develop, that we'll need a guy like that. It's far from certain that Dahntay will be traded, and he still may end up being that guy.

As to the 1st FA targeted, Bird had about $6-7mm with which he knew he probably had to fill three roster spots last year. They looked at Dahntay, they looked at Shannon Brown. It's not like they passed up the best FA's to get Dahntay. Jones was the guy they liked in their price range.

Plus, Bird and O'Brien probably both like Dahntay attitude and personality. Dahntay works hard, he gives effort on defense, and he seems to be a pretty good locker room guy. There are a hell of a lot worse things on which to spend $2.8mm a year over four years. However, he does not defend with the best of them, and circumstances last year left him with the ball in his hands way too often - which was almost as crippling to the offense as TJ was.

Also, since then, the Pacers may think they've added better long term options at the wing in Paul George and perhaps Lance Stephenson, and arguably a better short term option in Posey. I am sure that the Pacers would prefer to move Dunleavy and Ford both before trading Jones, but since Jones makes less in the next three years than either of those two will make this season, Jones may be more tradeable.

And, again, the Pacers may have no intention of trading him at all. I'm relatively sure they don't have any intention of just dumping the guy for no return.

Regardless of all of that, he is not, nor was he ever meant to be, a crucial cog for this franchise. He was just a guy that was affordable that they thought could help. He was probably pretty close to what they expected last year, but they just had to use him more than they would have liked.

count55
09-21-2010, 05:38 PM
You mention System when it comes to Inferno. Most indications before in Denver was that he was at least a solid defender....but now...playing for JO'B...he's not.

I don't know enough about basketball to know whether he truly is a good defender or not. Your post seems to suggest that he would fit in some systems while not fitting in others. Just like how many think that BRush would probably benefit from playing in a different offensive/defensive System ( specifically not for JO'B ), do you think that Inferno could benefit the same?

Or is it that you've seen enough to determine that he's simply not as "advertised".

He played 18 minutes a game and averaged 5.0 fouls per 36 in Denver. He filled a role, and it was termed "defender" but what it really was was a physical perimeter presence. He played basically the same game here, he just shot more because of the lack of offensive talent.

I think the arguments that Dahntay and Brandon would be somehow someone other than who they are if they were playing for another coach are totally without merit.

Brad8888
09-21-2010, 05:55 PM
He played 18 minutes a game and averaged 5.0 fouls per 36 in Denver. He filled a role, and it was termed "defender" but what it really was was a physical perimeter presence. He played basically the same game here, he just shot more because of the lack of offensive talent.

I think the arguments that Dahntay and Brandon would be somehow someone other than who they are if they were playing for another coach are totally without merit.

I agree with the first paragraph.

The second does not reflect the realities frequently observed when teams change coaches, especially when those coaches have differing philosophies. Dahntay might not change much because he has matured in the league at this point and just doesn't have shooting skills and is a poor decision maker due to his aggressiveness (much like a larger version of TJ). Brandon is a completely different story if he can get clean and stay clean (doubtful, but I truly want him to). Brandon, by contrast, is a solid if not good decision maker who just has been conditioned, due to being benched early and often his rookie year, to avoid situations where he must make those decisions. If Brandon were to play in a structured offense and became confident in what to do in set plays with only a couple of options available to him based on minor defensive reads, I suspect he would be more aggressive on offense and probably get to the foul line more frequently and thereby increase his scoring significantly. That would be a significant change for him as a player in my opinion.

Eleazar
09-21-2010, 05:56 PM
He played 18 minutes a game and averaged 5.0 fouls per 36 in Denver. He filled a role, and it was termed "defender" but what it really was was a physical perimeter presence. He played basically the same game here, he just shot more because of the lack of offensive talent.

I think the arguments that Dahntay and Brandon would be somehow someone other than who they are if they were playing for another coach are totally without merit.

There is a big difference between Dahntay and Rush. Dahntay is a defensive specialist who is a good defender with very little offense, but he isn't even as good as Daniels. At least Daniels had an unusual ability to make every shot within 10 feet no matter how off balanced he was or who was in front of him. Rush is more balanced. Not only is he a good defender he is also a good shooter, and has the ability to be a good scorer. The problem with Rush in this offense is it has so little structure which doesn't fit well with Rush's game. Rush is the kind of player that would excel under Carlisle, so would Hibbert, Granger, and Ford. Although that is a discussion for another time.

If you want a good example of a player fitting in better under one system and not another look at Ford. In his on healthy year with the Raptors he put up numbers comparable to many of the top PG's in the league, and it was the only winning season the Raptors had while Bosh was there. Then he came here and just doesn't play as well.

Players, coaches, and systems don't always mesh. Usually everyone plays better in one system and worse in others. In fact that is more of the rule than the exception.

Kemo
09-21-2010, 06:22 PM
D. Jones is entirely unnecessary right now. I've got nothing against him (though I don't love his game), but if I'm picking wings for next season he might be last. Other than the first 5 games when Rush is out, I don't see any reason I'd play Dahntay over any wing on the roster. If we can trade him for a 2nd round pick to make a roster spot for Rolle I'd consider it a good move. If we're going to move Dun or Rush or cut Lance or Posey retires, then I have no problem keeping him. I just don't see a consistent rotation spot for him right now.



While I most certainely agree with your sentiments .. Didn't the Pacers sign DJ to a decent little contract? I know he is slated to make $2.5 million in 2010 ..

I highly doubt we are gonna trade for a 2nd round pick , if we are responsible for DJ's salary.. unless we got a few picks AND the other team were actually willing to pay his salary and wanted him as a key piece to their team ..


.

Anthem
09-21-2010, 11:01 PM
D. Jones is entirely unnecessary right now. I've got nothing against him (though I don't love his game), but if I'm picking wings for next season he might be last. Other than the first 5 games when Rush is out, I don't see any reason I'd play Dahntay over any wing on the roster.
I'd play D.Jones over Dunleavy unless Mike has improved quite a bit.

O'Bird
09-21-2010, 11:04 PM
Now obviously, we've also learned we can't trust a word Jim says.

This again. I'm just not going to entertain it anymore. You can forget about interacting with me in the future.

ChicagoJ
09-21-2010, 11:15 PM
I don't know why people here just don't like Dahntay. Please, somebody tell me why.

Below average ballhandling.

Lousy shooting at any range.

Decent finisher. Decent at the FT line.

Completely derails the offense when he has the ball in his hands.

Selfish player offensively and defensively.

Poor help/team defense.

Average defense against players his size and bigger.

Steps up for defense against the superstars, but doesn't bring the intensity every night.

Tendency to make dumb plays, and then follow up a dumb play with a "forced play". Really low basketballIQ.

After 2, 3, 4 plays in a row can single-handedly take his team out of the game with compound mistakes.

But at least he "tries hard" and plays "with intensity" no matter how bad he is. Nobody accuses him of loafing. He'll **** things up at full speed, thank you.

There's a reason that nobody had given the guy a guaranteed/ multiyear contract since his rookie contract expired. He's good for a short burst while he "earns" his next contract, then he goes back to being a below average player. This was a fundamental contract/ FA mistake by Bird, but as many people pointed out last summer (correctly), even though its a four-year mistake it is a fairly low-dollar mistake. Its just too bad that seasons 2, 3, and 4 were guaranteed at all. You know the team wouldn't have picked up the option this summer if they had a choice. That's still an "oops", even if its a low-dollar "oops".

In another season or two, his time at Denver might be remembered as the year that he massively overachieved. More likely, nobody will remember him at all.

How's that?

PS, he didn't do anything last season to change my opinion of him. He only confirmed it. Otherwise, I could have typed out that post last summer, two summers ago, or even further back if you would have liked.

xBulletproof
09-21-2010, 11:15 PM
This again. I'm just not going to entertain it anymore. You can forget about interacting with me in the future.

I'm not entirely sure you've been reading this board, or following the Pacers on the level as we do here as a collective for long enough to have noticed this trend. Since JOB has been here, he's consistently said one thing, and done the opposite.

I'm sure someone here can fill a 5,000 word post with examples, but I don't have the time or interest. Doesn't make it any less true.

ChristianDudley
09-21-2010, 11:28 PM
Below average ballhandling.

Lousy shooting at any range.

Decent finisher. Decent at the FT line.

Completely derails the offense when he has the ball in his hands.

Selfish player offensively and defensively.

Poor help/team defense.

Average defense against players his size and bigger.

Steps up for defense against the superstars, but doesn't bring the intensity every night.

Tendency to make dumb plays, and then follow up a dumb play with a "forced play". Really low basketballIQ.

After 2, 3, 4 plays in a row can single-handedly take his team out of the game with compound mistakes.

But at least he "tries hard" and plays "with intensity" no matter how bad he is. Nobody accuses him of loafing. He'll **** things up at full speed, thank you.

There's a reason that nobody had given the guy a guaranteed/ multiyear contract since his rookie contract expired. He's good for a short burst while he "earns" his next contract, then he goes back to being a below average player. This was a fundamental contract/ FA mistake by Bird, but as many people pointed out last summer (correctly), even though its a four-year mistake it is a fairly low-dollar mistake. Its just too bad that seasons 2, 3, and 4 were guaranteed at all. You know the team wouldn't have picked up the option this summer if they had a choice. That's still an "oops", even if its a low-dollar "oops".

In another season or two, his time at Denver might be remembered as the year that he massively overachieved. More likely, nobody will remember him at all.

How's that?

PS, he didn't do anything last season to change my opinion of him. He only confirmed it. Otherwise, I could have typed out that post last summer, two summers ago, or even further back if you would have liked.

I don't think his ballhandling is that bad, plus his shooting inside the arc is pretty darn good--especially at the beginning of last season...as the season went on and his playing time went WAY down, so did his shooting I believe, but then again blame the coach again on that one.

More like a pretty darn good finisher. One of the best in the league at punishing the rim as well. He gives it his all when going towards the rim as well. I do wish he would have done better at his free-throws last season though...lots of in and out ones.

Derails the offense?? Not so sure about that. We don't have much of an offense with Jim O'Brien as our coach. Once again, get rid of the problem (O'Brien) and Dahntay will flourish.

Defensively, I think he is great all-around, but isn't used properly. O'Brien likes putting him on much bigger players such as PFs. He should be guarding the player he's excellent at guarding--SGs and PGs. In the playoffs with the Nuggets, he totally stopped CP3, Terry, Kobe, etc and it was no fluke.

For Dahntay's sake, he should have signed with one of the teams that were after him, such as Boston, Cleveland, L.A. Lakers, etc...at least they would have played him and therefore he would have won an NBA title with whomever he signed.

Maybe I'm just a fan of Dahntay, but I for one think he will bring a lot to the team to help us become a contending team in the future.

ChicagoJ
09-21-2010, 11:58 PM
Yep. He's an okay ninth-man on a contender where he only has to do the one thing he can do (defend players smaller than himself, plus Kobe).

He's not a good ninth-man on a talent-deprived roster, because he can only do one thing well but he's not afraid to do whatever he wants to do (whether it is in the gameplan or not.) He was especially bad with our second unit last year and it was clear that he did not respect his teammates' "games" or the gameplan. Now one could argue that he was right about both of those points, as our bench sucked and I'm not a big fan of what our coach tries to do. But even if he was right, he doesn't suck any less than the other bench players and his self-imposed strategy wasn't any more useful than his coach's strategy (and he was the only one that seemed to follow his self-imposed "everything runs through Dhantay" strategy. For better or worse, the players are at least trying to do what the coach asks -- whether we agree with it or not.)

flox
09-22-2010, 03:39 AM
I'm not entirely sure you've been reading this board, or following the Pacers on the level as we do here as a collective for long enough to have noticed this trend. Since JOB has been here, he's consistently said one thing, and done the opposite.

I'm sure someone here can fill a 5,000 word post with examples, but I don't have the time or interest. Doesn't make it any less true.

I'm not sure yuo've been reading the same things I have been reading, or follow the Pacers on the level as I do long enough to notice that this "trend' that you guys make up is just a lazy excuse and is completely false. /shrug


I don't think his ballhandling is that bad, plus his shooting inside the arc is pretty darn good--especially at the beginning of last season...as the season went on and his playing time went WAY down, so did his shooting I believe, but then again blame the coach again on that one.

I don't think his ballhanding is that good, plus he was just on a hot streak on the beginning of last season- as he fell down to earth later in the season and he started chucking and playing out of the system, his numbers normalized..but then again I'll blame the player on this one.

More like a pretty darn good finisher. One of the best in the league at punishing the rim as well. He gives it his all when going towards the rim as well. I do wish he would have done better at his free-throws last season though...lots of in and out ones.

More like a pretty bad finisher. One of the best in the league at running the rim with reckless abandon as well. He gives it his all when going towards the rim. I do wish he wouldn't have had his 2nd highest turnover ratio and highest foul ratio last season....


Derails the offense?? Not so sure about that. We don't have much of an offense with Jim O'Brien as our coach. Once again, get rid of the problem (O'Brien) and Dahntay will flourish.
Derails the offense? Absolutely- I don't understand why TJ gets all this heat and Dahntay doesn't for being such a black hole and trying to get "his" so badly. We have so many weapons on this team, and Jim has to worry about Dahntay being selfish. Once again, if we take the ball out of Dahntay's hands and the offense will flourish.


Defensively, I think he is great all-around, but isn't used properly. O'Brien likes putting him on much bigger players such as PFs. He should be guarding the player he's excellent at guarding--SGs and PGs. In the playoffs with the Nuggets, he totally stopped CP3, Terry, Kobe, etc and it was no fluke.

Defensively, I think he's overrated, and he's just very physical. He should be a person that comes in to play tough defense for like 20 minutes. In the playoffs, where things are more physical and you can get away with it, he managed to stay on the floor longer and became more rough- something that's expected in playoff basketball. But that was also because the Nuggets were so good- you can get beat if you have guys like Martin and Nene protecting the rim and being able to run the way those guys do- its no wonder he looked so good.


For Dahntay's sake, he should have signed with one of the teams that were after him, such as Boston, Cleveland, L.A. Lakers, etc...
Yes



at least they would have played him and therefore he would have won an NBA title with whomever he signed.
No.



Maybe I'm just a fan of Dahntay
Yes.


but I for one think he will bring a lot to the team to help us become a contending team in the future.
No.

Peck
09-22-2010, 04:47 AM
Dahntay Jones is 6'6" tall and weighs roughly 210-220 lbs. How many times last season did we have to wonder whether he or Mike Dunleavy was the power forward?

He is what he is and he shouldn't be used for what he is not.

Backup wing player off of the bench? Sure, why not? I could see either him or Dunleavy in that role.

I just can NOT though see a time when both of these players are your frontcourt.

I like Jones, to a point, so I just don't get all the fuss over him. Is he as good a defender as we thought? Well, in my case yes he is about what I expected but I think some thought they were getting a younger Sidny Moncrief or something.

He's a good scorer but not a good shooter. Well, in all honesty this is a problem we have at the shooting guard spot as neither of our shooting guards are really what you would call good shooters. Sure Brandon can hit the three at a decent clip but just don't ever ask him to shoot the supposed easiest shot in basketball, the free throw.

If D. Jones is moved I won't break down and cry or anything but if he is here next year and part of the rotation I won't hate it either. In all honesty I would rather see him on the floor over Dunleavy but I would certainly entertain the notion of seeing neither of them.

Sookie
09-22-2010, 12:11 PM
Dahntay Jones is 6'6" tall and weighs roughly 210-220 lbs. How many times last season did we have to wonder whether he or Mike Dunleavy was the power forward?

He is what he is and he shouldn't be used for what he is not.

Backup wing player off of the bench? Sure, why not? I could see either him or Dunleavy in that role.

I just can NOT though see a time when both of these players are your frontcourt.

I like Jones, to a point, so I just don't get all the fuss over him. Is he as good a defender as we thought? Well, in my case yes he is about what I expected but I think some thought they were getting a younger Sidny Moncrief or something.

He's a good scorer but not a good shooter. Well, in all honesty this is a problem we have at the shooting guard spot as neither of our shooting guards are really what you would call good shooters. Sure Brandon can hit the three at a decent clip but just don't ever ask him to shoot the supposed easiest shot in basketball, the free throw.

If D. Jones is moved I won't break down and cry or anything but if he is here next year and part of the rotation I won't hate it either. In all honesty I would rather see him on the floor over Dunleavy but I would certainly entertain the notion of seeing neither of them.

I think also, as you pointed out, he wasn't used effectively.

Is he a good defender, certainly. When he's guarding players that are SGs or PGs. He's physical, but he's not that great of a defender on PFs. I really don't blame him for that. This is about using your players correctly.

I don't blame Dahntay as much for the offensive failures as I did TJ. TJ's the PG. He was supposed to run the offense. And he continuously made poor decisions.

Dahntay was our "defensive stopper" that wouldn't have been on the court if he couldn't prove to the coach that he could score. Was it annoying at times. Yea, but at the same time...players want to play.

xBulletproof
09-22-2010, 04:45 PM
I'm not sure yuo've been reading the same things I have been reading, or follow the Pacers on the level as I do long enough to notice that this "trend' that you guys make up is just a lazy excuse and is completely false. /shrug

Oh we read the same things. I just don't read them with my Jim O'Brien poster on my wall next to my monitor, and my Jim O'Brien avatar on my account. A guy with a JOB avatar is certainly an unbiased source for the truth about him, yes? :laugh:

I remember reading someone's sig that read "Jim says what he says, and does what he does, but rarely does he do what he says". Perfect.

I remember when he first got here he said he demanded defensive effort. That if the guys do the work on defense, he will allow them more freedom on the offensive end. I'm still waiting on him to hold anyone accountable on that defensive thing .... and to not bench the guys who do give the effort on the defensive end. Strange.

beast23
09-22-2010, 05:36 PM
Dahntay Jones is 6'6" tall and weighs roughly 210-220 lbs...

I like Jones, to a point, so I just don't get all the fuss over him. Is he as good a defender as we thought?...

He's a good scorer but not a good shooter...

If D. Jones is moved I won't break down and cry or anything but if he is here next year and part of the rotation I won't hate it either. In all honesty I would rather see him on the floor over Dunleavy but I would certainly entertain the notion of seeing neither of them.You've hit on my two major concerns with DJones.

I have to confess that I was excited when we signed DJones. I thought we had finally found the sound perimeter defender that we needed. And one that was a capable scorer as well. I believe that many of us thought that he would prove to be a lock-down defender on all of the average SGs, with at least the ability to slow down the best SGs.

But alas, I must also confess that I was wrong. I can't say that I've witnessed any special abilities from DJones at the defensive end of the court. On the offensive end, he has not proven to be the player that can hit the open perimeter shot with any rate of success. So, as far as I'm concerned, without any significant specialized talent, and no ability to consistently hit a perimeter shot, he is just taking up space.

I am compelled to agree with Count. Dahntay Jones simply isn't a very good basketball player.

At this point, I would definitely want to see DunJr play over DJones. My reasoning is simple. I'm hoping that DunJr can re-establish his offensive reputation from a couple of seasons ago. If successful, that makes him a very important asset as the trade deadline aproaches. Or, if he is successful and we are not able to trade him, then I wouldn't be opposed to re-signing him at significantly fewer dollars.

As for DJones, he is the player that I would be disappointed in seeing on the roster next season. If he is still here, then I don't believe we will have landed the players to improve our roster as much as we all hope we can.