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MyFavMartin
09-16-2010, 04:30 PM
http://espn.go.com/espn/greatestteam/index/_/teamId/5557199/the-greatest-pacers-team-all-time

Sookie
09-16-2010, 04:37 PM
Ouch at Tinsley being on there..

Mount St. Awesome
09-16-2010, 04:42 PM
Roger Brown ranks 5th out of the small forwards? WTH?

Shade
09-16-2010, 04:49 PM
Interesting that Artest is missing...

Shade
09-16-2010, 04:52 PM
Btw...

Mel
BigMac
Rajah
Reggie
Jax

is my team.

croz24
09-16-2010, 04:53 PM
surprised that for my team, only reggie was a starter based on the fan poll. this pretty much shows the youth of the voters. i went with...

pg: freddie lewis
sg: reggie miller
sf: roger brown
pf: george mcginnis
c: mel daniels

MLB007
09-16-2010, 04:54 PM
Roger Brown ranks 5th out of the small forwards? WTH?

Much like Smits over Mel Daniels!
Think it's as simple as not many of us were around to see those guys.
Person couldn't hold Kellogg's jock. (nor Danny for that matter)

MLB007
09-16-2010, 04:55 PM
surprised that for my team, only reggie was a starter based on the fan poll. this pretty much shows the youth of the voters. i went with...

pg: freddie lewis
sg: reggie miller
sf: roger brown
pf: george mcginnis
c: mel daniels

Yep, my exact lineup too.
And dead on with the younger guys. ;)

MyFavMartin
09-16-2010, 05:03 PM
I checked out Chicago and Indiana and I thought it was interesting that Reggie is getting 99% of the vote as starting SG for the Pacers and Jordan is at only 96% for the Bulls.

HeliumFear
09-16-2010, 05:04 PM
Mark Jackson
Reggie Miller
Clark Kellog
George McG
Mel Daniels

MyFavMartin
09-16-2010, 05:10 PM
Mark Jackson
Reggie Miller
Clark Kellog
George McG
Mel Daniels

Those were the 5 I went.

It'd be great if video of the old ABA days were available for us youngin's to appreciate some of the Pacers legends.

Eddie Gill
09-16-2010, 05:11 PM
Jackson
Reggie
Kellogg
DD
Smits

Disclaimer: I'm a proud member of that youth demographic croz eluded to.

count55
09-16-2010, 05:12 PM
Ouch at Tinsley being on there..

The original list had Travis Best as one of the PG's, and James Edwards as one of the Centers.

It did not include:

Herb Williams
Antonio Davis
Clark Kellogg
Billy Keller
Jalen Rose

or

Mark Jackson

(It also seems that Dunleavy, Long and Jackson were added later).

I hinted loudly that Tinsley be left off the original, then that Jackson (and Long) be removed. (Our SG's - outside of Reggie and Billy Knight - have been atrocious. I suggested that they put Byron Scott on the list ahead of Jackson, Dunleavy and Long, but I think they left it because they figured Reggie would own it.) Probably left Tinsley assuming that Jackson would own that one, too.

Hicks
09-16-2010, 05:39 PM
Btw...

Mel
BigMac
Rajah
Reggie
Jax

is my team.

Same here.

God, I hope in 5 years I'm considering Collison instead of Jax, but I'm so used ot being let down.....

ChicagoJ
09-16-2010, 05:53 PM
I'm trying to figure out what they think the ABA-era Pacers rotation was?

Roger listed as F? Neto listed as a C?

Dece
09-16-2010, 05:58 PM
I always have problems with these because I don't know if people understand it to mean best at their position relative to their era, or just overall the best player. The simple honest truth is those guys from eras past could not hang in today's NBA. Athletes are bigger, faster, stronger, benefit from better coaching at every level, better sports science at every level, better nutrition.

To put it bluntly, I never saw Mel Daniels play, his numbers look great, but I doubt he'd be anybody in today's NBA. It's the same with every sport that endures, you simply can't take guys from the 1950-60-70 eras and plop them in the 2010 atmosphere and expect them to be special.

Justin Tyme
09-16-2010, 07:02 PM
To put it bluntly, I never saw Mel Daniels play, his numbers look great, but I doubt he'd be anybody in today's NBA. It's the same with every sport that endures, you simply can't take guys from the 1950-60-70 eras and plop them in the 2010 atmosphere and expect them to be special.


You obviously never saw Wilt, Russell, West, Monroe, Oscar, and many others play!!!!!

You think Mays, Mantle, Robinson, Ted Williams, Bob Gibson, Warren Spahn, Aaron, etc wouldn't be special?? The Yankee teams of he early 60's wouldn't have to take a backseat to the teams of today. They were special then as they would be today.

Jim Brown, Butkus, Unitas, Bubba, Gayle Sayres, Bart Starr to just "name a few."

Your comment holds water like a sieve. I saw these players play, and they would be special today "as well as many many others."

Dece
09-16-2010, 07:36 PM
Baseball is probably a poor example because it being a sport that requires generally less athleticism combined with the ever present steroid issue... but we've had more guys hit 500+ home runs in the last two decades than the previous 6 or something like that. The numbers of old aren't that impressive anymore. Similarly pitching is drastically different with guys on strict pitch counts and rotations. I doubt the Yankee's of the 60's would take a series from any of the last 10 world series champions.

Football, like basketball, relies on extreme athletic ability. Those guys you mentioned would likely be considered nothing special in today's NFL. I know it's hard to let go of those early sport memories, and you'll want to hang on to that and fight it tooth and nail believing they will always be the best, but it's true. What used to be considered blazing speed is markedly mediocre in today's NFL. Ray Lewis would use and abuse Butkus. Chris Johnson would run past Gale like he was standing still. etc.

Wilt and Russel are particularly interesting ones, to me, because people often like to bring them up in greatest of all time conversations. Meanwhile, if they were reincarnated in their primes during the Shaq/Ewing/Mourning/Robinson/Hakeem era they'd be battling to break into the top 5 center in the league argument.

You can't really say my argument doesn't hold water when you don't provide anything but an opposed opinion against it. Your opinion is no more valid than mine, and it doesn't cause my opinion to have holes. If you have some kind of logical way to analyze this, I'd be excited to see it. As it is, all any of us will ever have are opinions... and perhaps a few measurements, such as Mel being a 6'9" 220 pound center who'd get crushed by the size of today's centers.

Indra
09-16-2010, 08:02 PM
Baseball is probably a poor example because it being a sport that requires generally less athleticism combined with the ever present steroid issue... but we've had more guys hit 500+ home runs in the last two decades than the previous 6 or something like that. The numbers of old aren't that impressive anymore. Similarly pitching is drastically different with guys on strict pitch counts and rotations. I doubt the Yankee's of the 60's would take a series from any of the last 10 world series champions.

Football, like basketball, relies on extreme athletic ability. Those guys you mentioned would likely be considered nothing special in today's NFL. I know it's hard to let go of those early sport memories, and you'll want to hang on to that and fight it tooth and nail believing they will always be the best, but it's true. What used to be considered blazing speed is markedly mediocre in today's NFL. Ray Lewis would use and abuse Butkus. Chris Johnson would run past Gale like he was standing still. etc.

Wilt and Russel are particularly interesting ones, to me, because people often like to bring them up in greatest of all time conversations. Meanwhile, if they were reincarnated in their primes during the Shaq/Ewing/Mourning/Robinson/Hakeem era they'd be battling to break into the top 5 center in the league argument.

You can't really say my argument doesn't hold water when you don't provide anything but an opposed opinion against it. Your opinion is no more valid than mine, and it doesn't cause my opinion to have holes. If you have some kind of logical way to analyze this, I'd be excited to see it. As it is, all any of us will ever have are opinions... and perhaps a few measurements, such as Mel being a 6'9" 220 pound center who'd get crushed by the size of today's centers.

If we're living in fantasy play-land, who is to say that with the better training, nutrition, and coaching of today, those great players of the past wouldn't have set more records? If Mickey Mantle were born in 1985, by the time his career would be over I'd bet he'd still have hit 500+ homeruns and been the amazing athlete he was.

We're talking about hypothetical situations, nobody is right or wrong. My assumption is that all the great players we remember were great because they had something more than just speed or a high vertical. They had heart, determination, strong will, and the need to be the best, and those qualities transcend time. In my opinion, of course.

Marlin
09-16-2010, 08:22 PM
Btw...

Mel
BigMac
Rajah
Reggie
Jax

is my team.

Same here. How can Rajah be 5th among SF in beyond me, tho.

xBulletproof
09-16-2010, 08:23 PM
Ouch at Tinsley being on there..

As bad as our PG history has been, I'd almost understand if Collison was on there. :laugh:

Justin Tyme
09-16-2010, 10:30 PM
Baseball is probably a poor example because it being a sport that requires generally less athleticism combined with the ever present steroid issue... but we've had more guys hit 500+ home runs in the last two decades than the previous 6 or something like that. The numbers of old aren't that impressive anymore. Similarly pitching is drastically different with guys on strict pitch counts and rotations. I doubt the Yankee's of the 60's would take a series from any of the last 10 world series champions.

Football, like basketball, relies on extreme athletic ability. Those guys you mentioned would likely be considered nothing special in today's NFL. I know it's hard to let go of those early sport memories, and you'll want to hang on to that and fight it tooth and nail believing they will always be the best, but it's true. What used to be considered blazing speed is markedly mediocre in today's NFL. Ray Lewis would use and abuse Butkus. Chris Johnson would run past Gale like he was standing still. etc.

Wilt and Russel are particularly interesting ones, to me, because people often like to bring them up in greatest of all time conversations. Meanwhile, if they were reincarnated in their primes during the Shaq/Ewing/Mourning/Robinson/Hakeem era they'd be battling to break into the top 5 center in the league argument.

You can't really say my argument doesn't hold water when you don't provide anything but an opposed opinion against it. Your opinion is no more valid than mine, and it doesn't cause my opinion to have holes. If you have some kind of logical way to analyze this, I'd be excited to see it. As it is, all any of us will ever have are opinions... and perhaps a few measurements, such as Mel being a 6'9" 220 pound center who'd get crushed by the size of today's centers.


My opinion is based on seeing them play, yours isn't. How can you even discuss what you know nothing about? You just feel players are better today period. Apparently, nothing old can compare with something from now days. LOL!!

As far as more HR in baseball, try steroids and inferior pitching. Aaron didn't using steroids nor was he hitting against inferior pitching to break the Babe's record. Batters couldn't dig in like they do today w/o being hearing "chin music." Sal "the Barber" Maglie, Bob Gibson, Don Drysdale, Juan Marichel just to name a few, never allowed batters to dig in! There isn't a batter in MLB today that could hold Ted Williams jock strap when it comes to hitting. He is the standard modern players wish they could equal.

Ray Lewis is a cream puff compared to Dick Butkus, and I'm not even sure Butkus was even the toughest LB of his time.

Yes, it's difference of opinions, but mine is based on 1st hand observation. What's yours based on, since yours isn't? You have never seen these players play, so don't give me a spiel how they can't be special today. You have absolutely no way of backing it up other than "it's your opinion." End of discussion!

Dece
09-16-2010, 10:48 PM
First hand observations in a 30 year good old days fog don't really amount to much as far as empirically arguing anything goes. It's not like game tapes don't exist, anyone of any age can watch the replays if they so choose.

Anyway, this isn't going to progress anywhere, it simply can't, it's nothing but opinion and I've stated mine. Take care.

pizza guy
09-16-2010, 10:49 PM
Mark Jackson
Reggie Miller
Roger Brown
George McGinnis
Mel Daniels

That's my team. It's hard to argue with the banners that hang from the rafters.

I grew up in the Jack, Reggie, Smits and Davis Bro days. I almost would have just picked that team because that's where my memories lay. That was tremendous basketball to watch and it's the reason I'm a fan, and it's the type of team I'd like to see now. I almost picked Jermaine because for a couple years, he really was a darn good ball player for us. But I tried to think of things from an "all-time" point of view, and quite frankly JO's 55-point game and 61-win season doesn't stack up to the ABA Titles of the older guys.

What's interesting is the Sports Nation vote:

Mark
Reggie
Chuck Person (.3% ahead of Granger right now)
JO
Smits

Also, some of you have mentioned Kellogg at the SF position. I am just a couple years too young to remember Clark as a player, so it's hard for me to say. I will say that because of the shortness of his career, I find it hard to put him as the All-Time SF for the Pacers. It may be unfair, but that's how I see it. I think Danny could eventually take that spot, actually. If he stays around and has a career like Reggie did, and his production remains high -- but most importantly, if he can lead us to the playoffs and win -- I think he has the potential to earn that seat.

--pizza

Day-V
09-16-2010, 10:53 PM
I am just a couple years too young to remember Clark as a player, so it's hard for me to say.

A couple? Dude, he retired before you and I were even born.

pizza guy
09-16-2010, 10:55 PM
A couple? Dude, he retired before you and I were even born.

LoL, see that's what I'm sayin' ;)

FlavaDave
09-16-2010, 11:27 PM
My opinion is based on seeing them play, yours isn't. How can you even discuss what you know nothing about? You just feel players are better today period. Apparently, nothing old can compare with something from now days. LOL!!

As far as more HR in baseball, try steroids and inferior pitching. Aaron didn't using steroids nor was he hitting against inferior pitching to break the Babe's record. Batters couldn't dig in like they do today w/o being hearing "chin music." Sal "the Barber" Maglie, Bob Gibson, Don Drysdale, Juan Marichel just to name a few, never allowed batters to dig in! There isn't a batter in MLB today that could hold Ted Williams jock strap when it comes to hitting. He is the standard modern players wish they could equal.

Ray Lewis is a cream puff compared to Dick Butkus, and I'm not even sure Butkus was even the toughest LB of his time.

Yes, it's difference of opinions, but mine is based on 1st hand observation. What's yours based on, since yours isn't? You have never seen these players play, so don't give me a spiel how they can't be special today. You have absolutely no way of backing it up other than "it's your opinion." End of discussion!

Hey you whipper snappers - stay off his lawn.

cactusjack
09-17-2010, 12:57 AM
surprised that for my team, only reggie was a starter based on the fan poll. this pretty much shows the youth of the voters. i went with...

pg: freddie lewis
sg: reggie miller
sf: roger brown
pf: george mcginnis
c: mel daniels

If the gauge of a man's intelligence is how much he agrees with you, then you, sir, are a bloody genius!!

jpc
09-17-2010, 12:57 AM
I am old enough to remember all of the Pacer teams.

My lineup

Mel Daniels - yes he would be very good today. He was a beast. The ABA didn't have a lot of good big men but Zelmo Beatty, Artis Gilmore, Moses Malone and Daniels were legit. Smits is second.

Power Forward - Jermaine O'Neal first. Six time all-star. DD second. McGinnis who I have seen play at least 30 times was not very bright. Yes he was a physical specimen but he turned the ball over a lot mainly because he thought he looked cool shooting with one hand. I would love to see DD guard McGinnis.

Small Forward - Granger is the clear winner. Roger Brown was a great clutch player but he was 6' 5''. You can't play small forward at that height today. He would be number 2 at SG if listed.

SG - Reggie

PG - I picked Buse (I might be the only one). He did lead the NBA in steals and he had an excellent assist to turnover ratio. He was first team all defense 6 times. (4 in the NBA) and played in an all-star game. Jackson was my second choice but his defense was so poor. Freddie Lewis was a very good ABA point guard. Balanced would be the best word to describe him but he was not dominant.

cdash
09-17-2010, 01:29 AM
My opinion is based on seeing them play, yours isn't. How can you even discuss what you know nothing about? You just feel players are better today period. Apparently, nothing old can compare with something from now days. LOL!!

As far as more HR in baseball, try steroids and inferior pitching. Aaron didn't using steroids nor was he hitting against inferior pitching to break the Babe's record. Batters couldn't dig in like they do today w/o being hearing "chin music." Sal "the Barber" Maglie, Bob Gibson, Don Drysdale, Juan Marichel just to name a few, never allowed batters to dig in! There isn't a batter in MLB today that could hold Ted Williams jock strap when it comes to hitting. He is the standard modern players wish they could equal.

Ray Lewis is a cream puff compared to Dick Butkus, and I'm not even sure Butkus was even the toughest LB of his time.

Yes, it's difference of opinions, but mine is based on 1st hand observation. What's yours based on, since yours isn't? You have never seen these players play, so don't give me a spiel how they can't be special today. You have absolutely no way of backing it up other than "it's your opinion." End of discussion!

This is an interesting argument that seems to be solely, "my generation versus yours." Seeing as how I am 25, I am probably going to side more with the "older athletes wouldn't be quite as special if you plopped them into the 2010 version of their sport." Baseball, I think would be less affected that basketball and football though. Players today are bigger, faster, stronger, have better nutrition, training regimes, etc. Football I think would especially be tough. These guys today are absolute monsters, and I'm not saying that no one from the 60s/70s could be successful, but I suspect that only a select few (like five, maybe) would be able to play in today's NFL. Just my opinion. Basketball would fall somewhere in between. I think guys like Oscar, Wilt, and a few others could play and thrive in today's NBA. Any of those guys with great vision, great low post scoring moves, or great shooting ability could make it. Would they reach legendary status? Probably not, but I think they could hold their own.

oz_pacer
09-17-2010, 04:00 AM
I'm young i went with c-smits pf-jermaine sf-granger sg-reggie pg-jackson

Day-V
09-17-2010, 05:58 AM
I went with:

PG: Mark Jackson
SG: Reggie Miller
SF: Roger Brown
PF: Dale Davis (The Greatest Athlete to Ever Participate in Professional Sport)
C: Mel Daniels

aceace
09-17-2010, 07:21 AM
Kellogg is/was probably one of the 5 best players we ever drafted. He had no problem getting 20/10 nightly, it was sad he had to retire early. Had he lasted 10-12 years we might have him at top.

RWB
09-17-2010, 08:53 AM
Would they reach legendary status? Probably not, but I think they could hold their own.

By that same token if Kwame Brown played with the older generations he would still be a bust. :D

Isaac
09-17-2010, 09:24 AM
Btw...

Mel
BigMac
Rajah
Reggie
Jax

is my team.

Yeah, that's my team too, and I almost can't see how it would be anything else. Maybe you could argue Freddie Lewis.

cinotimz
09-17-2010, 09:28 AM
Didn't we just do this?

Buse
Reggie
Artest
JO
Daniels

That lineup would kick major *** at both ends. Im not a JO fan, but would have to go with him...and he would be fantastic alongside Mel.

naptownmenace
09-17-2010, 09:43 AM
My 5:

Mark Jackson
Reggie
Kellogg
JO
Daniels

Clark Kellogg was my first favorite Pacers player. My first heartbreaking experience with the Pacers was when he had to retire because of his knee injury.

SMosley21
09-17-2010, 11:30 AM
PG - Mark Jackson
SG - Reggie Miller
SF - Danny Granger
PF - George McGinnis
C - Mel Daniels

MyFavMartin
09-17-2010, 01:38 PM
How many votes would Rick Mount have pulled?

MillerTime
09-17-2010, 01:54 PM
Mark Jackson
Reggie
Granger
JO
Smits

CableKC
09-17-2010, 02:55 PM
I could only go off of which Players that I have seen play on TV.

PG - Mark Jackson
SG - Reggie
SF - Granger
PF - Dale Davis
C - Rik Smits

Unfortunately, I only know the rest of the Players you mentioned by name only since they were "before my time" when I started paying attention to the Pacers.

After the results are tabulated.......how would the Top 5 Pacers fare against the Top 5 Players in the rest of the league?

cdash
09-17-2010, 03:17 PM
I'm young i went with c-smits pf-jermaine sf-granger sg-reggie pg-jackson

Yeah, I voted the same thing. It showed my age pretty well. I voted for the players that I knew, basically. I won't pretend to be an expert on pre-1990s Pacer teams, and since I never saw those guys play in the context of the moment, I didn't vote for them.

MLB007
09-17-2010, 03:21 PM
I'm trying to figure out what they think the ABA-era Pacers rotation was?

Roger listed as F? Neto listed as a C?

Roger Brown was a small forward.
Neto was a 4 but he played some 5.

MLB007
09-17-2010, 03:22 PM
How many votes would Rick Mount have pulled?

He was never a great NBA player.
One of the greatest college players of all time.
Nothing special at the next level.

Eleazar
09-17-2010, 07:47 PM
I could only go off of which Players that I have seen play on TV.

PG - Mark Jackson
SG - Reggie
SF - Granger
PF - Dale Davis
C - Rik Smits

Unfortunately, I only know the rest of the Players you mentioned by name only since they were "before my time" when I started paying attention to the Pacers.

After the results are tabulated.......how would the Top 5 Pacers fare against the Top 5 Players in the rest of the league?

I think they would do surprisingly well. I think the only thing that would hurt us if it went up to a vote is that many of our best players were from the ABA. We have had many great players, just most of them where in the ABA days.