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View Full Version : Kellogg faces early challenges - Looks like Lance will be here.



90'sNBARocked
09-16-2010, 11:18 AM
http://www.indystar.com/article/20100916/SPORTS04/9160418/1062/SPORTS04/


Kellogg-faces-early-challengesClark Kellogg's first crisis as the Indiana Pacers' vice president of player relations came just a few weeks after he was hired by the team. His second came just 12 days later.

Rookie Lance Stephenson (who is facing felony assault charges stemming from an altercation with his girlfriend) and Brandon Rush (suspended five games after testing positive for marijuana for the third time) gave Kellogg an unpleasant welcome to his new role. The incidents also brought back painful memories from several years ago.

"Those were significant gut shots right away on a number of levels," Kellogg said recently from his home in Columbus, Ohio.

Kellogg, 49, will keep his role as Pacers television analyst on the road and as the lead college basketball analyst for CBS while commuting between Ohio and Indianapolis.

The former Pacers first-round draftee shared a few thoughts on his new position.

Question: How did you end up with this job?

Answer: (General manager) David Morway approached me back in March. We had a couple of conversations by phone that they were thinking about making a change at that position. He thought I would be a strong candidate. From my understanding, I became the only candidate after we started talking.

I think it's through my association through the team. How I tried to conduct myself and do things in all aspects of my life. I think they felt like I could be an asset in another aspect of the franchise.

Q: What makes you think you can handle this job, which, as you can tell, won't be easy?

A: I spoke at a Business of Basketball function back in December that included front office personnel and the team. I shared from my heart how important it is to carry yourself the right way and do the right things now and for your future.

I talked about my transition from being a promising young player to having my career cut short to how things have unfolded for me. I really shared from my heart to take advantage of their opportunity. I think that kind of put the antenna up on the organization.

Q: Did you always envision yourself in this type of role?

A: I really didn't envision it, but I've always been involved in Christian organizations: Athletes in Action, the Fellowship of Christian Athletes and other outreach organizations. I want to try to convey life lessons but also to share my faith. I've always had a heart to mentor and to impact young people. It's something that has been ringing in my heart for a long time.

This kind of came about as a way to scratch all the itches in one place. It's always a way for me to grow professionally.

It's challenging because trying to do it from where I'm at in Columbus along with everything else put on my plate, it's going to require a lot of work.

Q: What do you see as your biggest challenge with the job?

A: The challenge is trying to get very young players to understand the importance of their total development. Everything that comes at them from a basketball standpoint is a high priority, demanding, challenging, requires great mental and physical concentration. Also they have to be made aware of how important it is to grow in other areas. When you have young guys that are talented, making a lot of money, that have been coddled, encouraged to have a sense of entitlement, it becomes a challenge to get them to understand how the little things become important.

I want to help them become the team that the city, the state, the league is proud of in how they handle their business. That's how I've envisioned it in my mind at this point.

Q: The Pacers are a team with quite a few young players. How do you plan to do the job while living in Ohio and also continuing to work at CBS?

A: It's a work (in) progress. I really don't have a definitive answer. I think it can be done. The Pacers are adamant about wanting me to continue what I've been doing on the broadcasting side with them, understanding my CBS priorities are at the top of the heap as well.

I'm hopeful as I get more and more familiar with my responsibilities, more and more familiar with my players and come to grips with what type of programming that the players relations team is going to put in place to help our players grow on and off the court, that a vast majority of my work can be done in the offseason and up until the start of the college basketball season.

Q: The Stephenson and Rush incidents didn't allow you to get off to a smooth start. What are your thoughts on the two?

A: Anything impacting our players, especially off-the-court stuff, is an issue for our players and the franchise. It falls under my responsibility under player relations. Those were significant gut shots right away on a number of levels. Yet you have to try to do what we can as an organization to get our guys back on the right track.

The situation with Brandon is primarily at this point a league matter and that the anti-drug program is confidential until they're suspended.

With Lance, we've been a little bit more hands on and intervening. We got him into some counseling that he's required to do. So far it seems like it's going well. (President) Larry (Bird) and David then decide when he gets back into regular team workouts. He is working out with some supervision with our coaches. He's 20 years old, taking that into consideration. You try to help these guys deal with the bumps they run into because of poor choices and other issues. As some of the folks around the office said, "Welcome to player relations."[/

Jon Theodore
09-16-2010, 11:27 AM
Of course Lance will be here. I've been saying that all along.

90'sNBARocked
09-16-2010, 11:29 AM
Of course Lance will be here. I've been saying that all along.

I hope so , for many reasons.

I wonder if the Pacers "know something " already

Bball
09-16-2010, 11:36 AM
With Lance, we've been a little bit more hands on and intervening. We got him into some counseling that he's required to do.

I wonder if this means 'required by the legal system'? It seems oddly worded if he just meant the Pacers are requiring it. If not the Pacers requiring it then that would mean the Pacers (likely) DO know something about what path this is on to resolution. That would mean Lance likely has some kind of opportunity to get counseling in exchange for some type of lighter sentence/plea bargain, deferral, or something else less than a guilty plea for what we all heard would be the initial charges and penalty (IE- Serious jail time).

McKeyFan
09-16-2010, 11:40 AM
Well, instead of hating on milk drinkers, Larry Bird has now brought in the creme de la creme.

Score one for the narrow road.

Brad8888
09-16-2010, 11:42 AM
Good luck to Clark Kellogg who I believe to be a great human being. He will need all the help and luck he can get to both do the new job he has been hired for effectively as well as continuing his career in broadcasting.

So, confirmation of what was shown from the lockerroom tour pictures with Stephenson being a part of the franchise? The next question is, I suppose, how will the team handle the tightrope it will walk from a public perception standpoint? Many who have actually followed his story have basically tried and convicted him already, and even if it comes out (which I haven't seen yet) that his girlfriend somehow fabricated the entire story, how many will believe the new story vs. how many will think that she is backing off and changing her story either out of simply wanting to maximize what she and their child end up with in the long term by not wanting to damage Lance's possible NBA career or that she is actually expressing a classic sign of a battered woman who fears further abuse and changes stories to take the heat off of the person who committed the abuse by refuting their own story.

A potentially risky path for the franchise, even if he is exonerated. Hopefully Lance ends up being worth the potential hit the franchise will take yet again if he ends up being convicted IMO.

90'sNBARocked
09-16-2010, 12:05 PM
Good luck to Clark Kellogg who I believe to be a great human being. He will need all the help and luck he can get to both do the new job he has been hired for effectively as well as continuing his career in broadcasting.

So, confirmation of what was shown from the lockerroom tour pictures with Stephenson being a part of the franchise? The next question is, I suppose, how will the team handle the tightrope it will walk from a public perception standpoint? Many who have actually followed his story have basically tried and convicted him already, and even if it comes out (which I haven't seen yet) that his girlfriend somehow fabricated the entire story, how many will believe the new story vs. how many will think that she is backing off and changing her story either out of simply wanting to maximize what she and their child end up with in the long term by not wanting to damage Lance's possible NBA career or that she is actually expressing a classic sign of a battered woman who fears further abuse and changes stories to take the heat off of the person who committed the abuse by refuting their own story.

A potentially risky path for the franchise, even if he is exonerated. Hopefully Lance ends up being worth the potential hit the franchise will take yet again if he ends up being convicted IMO.

I think that the Pacers required the consueling and that they have told Lance "This is how it will go and if you deviate , even one bit, from this plan, we will cut you immediately and try and recoup some of the money we gave you"

TMJ31
09-16-2010, 12:22 PM
I am really thrilled to have such a high character man of faith like Clark mentoring our young guys.

This is an incredibly wise move on the Pacers part, and I feel it will have big rewards both on and off the court for our young guys.

Trader Joe
09-16-2010, 12:30 PM
Clark can handle this position very well.

Seems like it's all gumdrops and lollipops lately, even the Rush and Stephenson events blew over pretty quickly. Strange, but fun times.

Doddage
09-16-2010, 01:01 PM
Good. I didn't agree with what Lance got involved in at all, but inside I was hoping things would work out and he'd end up on the team. He's a hell of a talent and with continued mentoring, I think he can really help the Pacers.

Sookie
09-16-2010, 01:02 PM
He's not going to be here if he goes to jail.

If he doesn't got to jail, then I'd hope that means he's innocent, which means he has every right to be here.

If he's found guilty, but for whatever reason isn't sentenced to jail time, I'm going to have a hard time stomaching this franchise and the legal system. (Hello Chris Brown..)

Speed
09-16-2010, 01:19 PM
I think that one thing that TPTB think is Lance can be a really really good player. I don't think they'd go to such lengths, if there wasn't a huge potential payoff.

At the end of the day it's still a business.

pizza guy
09-16-2010, 01:23 PM
I don't know what the truth is in Lance's situation, but I do know that the team is handling it a million times better than they handled Artest's issues. He wasn't in legal trouble, but everyone knew he had a problem with his temper and general sanity. Five years ago, everything was swept under the rug and if anything leaked out, there would be a little article saying that Bird "really likes Ronnie," and everything was fine again. Now, with these two situations, it seems to me like they're being more upfront, and they've already got Lance in counseling and they aren't making any excuses or special exceptions for him.

Also, I'm glad Clark has this position. He's a good guy and you know he's going to tell it like it is to these guys.

--pizza

Sookie
09-16-2010, 01:38 PM
I think that one thing that TPTB think is Lance can be a really really good player. I don't think they'd go to such lengths, if there wasn't a huge potential payoff.

At the end of the day it's still a business.

We also have a little bit of money tied into him.

In that sense, cutting him before a verdict is just waisting money.

BTW: Apparently (I did not know this) she can't drop the charges. Once the charge was made, she is now considered a witness by the state.

I'm also unsure about the required counseling, but seeing as how it immiedatly was followed by "going well, he's now able to rejoin the team." That sounds like it was a "team required" thing.

Unclebuck
09-16-2010, 01:56 PM
I don't think there is any news on Lance here. His court date is mid October, so nothing was going to happen prior to then. I seriously doubt the Pacers "know something"

MLB007
09-16-2010, 02:23 PM
He's not going to be here if he goes to jail.

If he doesn't got to jail, then I'd hope that means he's innocent, which means he has every right to be here.

If he's found guilty, but for whatever reason isn't sentenced to jail time, I'm going to have a hard time stomaching this franchise and the legal system. (Hello Chris Brown..)

IF it went down as we've heard the rumors, then just that making the papers specifically will be enough to have him run out of town.
Convicted or not.
It's all speculation until the trial.
But if it comes out he did push her down the stairs and put her head into one, nobody in the city will want anything to do with him.
Mad skillz and all.
(he ain't quick enough to be "special")

90'sNBARocked
09-16-2010, 02:30 PM
He's not going to be here if he goes to jail.

I dont think that will happen, but even if it does, it doesnt guarantee he wont be here

If he gets minimal time (a month or two) he can have his reprt date suspended until after the season, which has been done plenty of times before

Strummer
09-16-2010, 02:42 PM
I think the fact that he's in Indiana is a good sign. Don't they often say "And don't leave the state (NY)" when someone gets bailed out? Seems like someone in NY was being accommodating...

MyFavMartin
09-16-2010, 02:49 PM
His initial court date is Oct. 15th, but won't there be likely motions to delay or the defense might argue that there's inconsistent testimony or not enough evidence to go forward and the case should be thrown out? Would that happen then or at a later date?

cdash
09-16-2010, 02:52 PM
I'd be pretty shocked if he actually goes to jail. He'll be with the team and this will be a non-issue by December, unless he ****s up again.

Sookie
09-16-2010, 02:52 PM
I dont think that will happen, but even if it does, it doesnt guarantee he wont be here

If he gets minimal time (a month or two) he can have his reprt date suspended until after the season, which has been done plenty of times before

Why don't you think that will happen if he's convicted?

That means he actually threw her down the stairs and slammed her head against a step? She could have died.

1. Would we want that kind of person on the team?
2. How could that possibly not earn jail time?

Honestly, I know we've seen some trials with Chris Brown and Jason Kidd, that were pathetic, but that's not how the system should be. Part of the reason for jail time is because said abuser is a threat to society, as it is extremely rare for an abuser to change. And if he or she does change, it's after years and years of therapy.

So if he's found guilty, and they play it down, that's just pathetic.

kidneypuncher
09-16-2010, 02:55 PM
Not sure how they do it in NY, but oftentimes lawyers will recommend completing anger management or hopefully batterer's intervention treatment prior to court dates to increase odds of a diversion/minimal sentence. It could also be at the request of the Pacers.

cdash
09-16-2010, 02:58 PM
Not sure how they do it in NY, but oftentimes lawyers will recommend completing anger management or hopefully batterer's intervention treatment prior to court dates to increase odds of a diversion/minimal sentence. It could also be at the request of the Pacers.

Yeah, that's what I expect to happen. His lawyer will cut a deal in exchange for a guilty plea so the case doesn't drag on. Everyone can move on. He will have to go to counseling I'm sure, he will get put on probation, and probably have to pay a fine or something I'd imagine. Yes, I'm playing armchair lawyer after years of watching Law and Order.

kidneypuncher
09-16-2010, 03:17 PM
Yeah, that's what I expect to happen. His lawyer will cut a deal in exchange for a guilty plea so the case doesn't drag on. Everyone can move on. He will have to go to counseling I'm sure, he will get put on probation, and probably have to pay a fine or something I'd imagine. Yes, I'm playing armchair lawyer after years of watching Law and Order.

I hope it doesn't drag on, but sometimes lawyers stretch out the case with what I think is the reasoning that more time from incident = less punishment. In Kansas, domestic violence cases tend to get fastracked though. Don't know about Brooklyn.

Shade
09-16-2010, 03:20 PM
I'll go on record now saying that I believe that retaining Lance will come back to bite us in the ***.

I hope he proves me wrong.

90'sNBARocked
09-16-2010, 03:28 PM
I think the fact that he's in Indiana is a good sign. Don't they often say "And don't leave the state (NY)" when someone gets bailed out? Seems like someone in NY was being accommodating...

good point, usually you have to notify someone first

Sookie
09-16-2010, 03:28 PM
Yeah, that's what I expect to happen. His lawyer will cut a deal in exchange for a guilty plea so the case doesn't drag on. Everyone can move on. He will have to go to counseling I'm sure, he will get put on probation, and probably have to pay a fine or something I'd imagine. Yes, I'm playing armchair lawyer after years of watching Law and Order.

Yea, and then he'll do it again. Because a slap on the wrist and a couple months of counseling doesn't change an abuser.

kidneypuncher
09-16-2010, 03:34 PM
Why don't you think that will happen if he's convicted?

That means he actually threw her down the stairs and slammed her head against a step? She could have died.

1. Would we want that kind of person on the team?
2. How could that possibly not earn jail time?

Honestly, I know we've seen some trials with Chris Brown and Jason Kidd, that were pathetic, but that's not how the system should be. Part of the reason for jail time is because said abuser is a threat to society, as it is extremely rare for an abuser to change. And if he or she does change, it's after years and years of therapy.

So if he's found guilty, and they play it down, that's just pathetic.

1. I for one have no problem with a person on the team who is actively attempting to change his life. For instance, I would have no trouble actively rooting for Lance, Dante Stallworth, Ben R., Michael Vick, Ray Lewis, Leonard Little, etc. if they were actively improving their lives and decision making. Others can have the perfectly reasonable opinions otherwise.

I would advise anyone who is abused to end their relationship, because the likelihood of it happening again (or something worse) is uncomfortably high. However, recidivism is improved by appropriate legal consequences and police contact, which is a must for treatment. In addition, it is likely that because of the resources and current life situation (Rich, dream job and get better vs. Poor, fail at dream job and continue to abuse) that Lance may have better odds than most others. Also, factors like readiness to change, likely will indicate whether he is more or less likely to abuse again. None of these things determines everything, Lance's future decisions have not been made yet, but I can see a lot of scenarios where Lance could or would improve.

90'sNBARocked
09-16-2010, 03:36 PM
Why don't you think that will happen if he's convicted?

That means he actually threw her down the stairs and slammed her head against a step? She could have died.

1. Would we want that kind of person on the team?
2. How could that possibly not earn jail time?

Honestly, I know we've seen some trials with Chris Brown and Jason Kidd, that were pathetic, but that's not how the system should be. Part of the reason for jail time is because said abuser is a threat to society, as it is extremely rare for an abuser to change. And if he or she does change, it's after years and years of therapy.

So if he's found guilty, and they play it down, that's just pathetic.

You need to ease up shorty, I didnt push the girl down the stairs

Would you be happy if Lance got multiple years in prison , then lost the ability to ever provide for her daughter in the way he can now?

Does that make for a better world? Or should we take him outside and beat him to death. Thank God your not part of the jury you have already convicted him predjudicaly, before the trial

aceace
09-16-2010, 03:41 PM
Lance was never facing serious jail time. There was only reports that he hit her head on the stairs, shoved her etc etc. If this had been serious, you would have heard of her going to the hospital and "no contact" agreements. He may not go to court until October but that would not stop his lawyer from talking to the prosecutor from working out an agreement before hand. I'm 100% sure that this will be worked out before that happens. Counseling is most likely part of that. I expect if he meets all the requirements set forth that this will be dropped. If it happens again, it will be much worse.

90'sNBARocked
09-16-2010, 03:43 PM
Yea, and then he'll do it again. Because a slap on the wrist and a couple months of counseling doesn't change an abuser.

Lets go beat him to death, he is not worthy of the air we breath , obviously the girl did absolutely nothing wrong, was shivering in a corner like a dove

Lance will never change he is a predator awaiting his next victum, and we should execute before trial

kidneypuncher
09-16-2010, 03:46 PM
Yea, and then he'll do it again. Because a slap on the wrist and a couple months of counseling doesn't change an abuser.

Batterers Intervention that I conduct is 26 weeks long. I just started, but from other programs, some people do change. And you are absolutely right that a slap on the wrist would do little, but I don't think that probation, jail time, work release, regular monitoring, threats of serving his entire sentence if he violates etc. are a slap on the wrist.

Brad8888
09-16-2010, 03:47 PM
Lets go beat him to death, he is not worthy of the air we breath , obviously the girl did absolutely nothing wrong, was shivering in a corner like a dove

Lance will never change he is a predator awaiting his next victum, and we should execute before trial

:inbeforethelock2:

BornReady
09-16-2010, 03:50 PM
You need to ease up shorty, I didnt push the girl down the stairs

Would you be happy if Lance got multiple years in prison , then lost the ability to ever provide for her daughter in the way he can now?

Does that make for a better world? Or should we take him outside and beat him to death. Thank God your not part of the jury you have already convicted him predjudicaly, before the trial

hahah I lol'd
for the record (just clearing things up in case they go sour) he's not literally calling you a shorty, but shorty (or "shawty") is a fairly commonly used slang today generally used to address a girl. Singers/rappers love using it :D

kidneypuncher
09-16-2010, 03:58 PM
obviously the girl did absolutely nothing wrong, was shivering in a corner like a dove

Don't need to sarcastically imply the victim did something wrong to in order to defend Lance. All stories indicate that her "crime" was coming home late and her "punishment" was brutality.

Sookie
09-16-2010, 03:59 PM
Lets go beat him to death, he is not worthy of the air we breath , obviously the girl did absolutely nothing wrong, was shivering in a corner like a dove

Lance will never change he is a predator awaiting his next victum, and we should execute before trial

My statement was an "if he did it" statement, which was pretty clear. (and btw, yea..I think it's quite likely he did it.)

This issue, like it or not, goes farther than a simple "should he be on the team" issue. This isn't just sports, its a women's issue and a political issue and a humanity issue.

The reality is, abusers rarely, if ever change. ESPECIALLY not in a sixth month period. Even people who really truly want to change have an especially hard time changing. (Chris Brown, for example, watched his step father abuse his mother his entire childhood, detested it, promised he'd never do it. But at the end of the day, had those issues to deal with, and did do it.) I don't think predator is the right word really. But I won't go into semantics. The real honest to god truth is, abusers RARELY change. Period. And quite frankly, before he's a core member of this team, I think he needs to prove he changed.

And yea, so much as we know, all his girlfriend did was come home at a time that Lance didn't like. And quite frankly, I don't care if she cheated on him, right in front of him, what he allegedly did was not excusable. Period. But by all means lets throw accusations out against the victim. After all, women usually deserve it right? Too bad she can't dribble a basketball.

and aceboon, she did go to the hospital and he does have a restraining order against him.

edit: And I know that nickname, and I'm..vertically challenged so it didn't bother me :P
" jail time, work release, regular monitoring, threats of serving his entire sentence if he violates etc. are a slap on the wrist. " Is not a slap on the wrist (although I'd personally be much harder on domestic abusers..) But a few months of community service, picking your three weeks of jail time, some counseling..aka..other punishments suggested here..slap on the wrist.

Sorry for derailing the thread, but "Woohoo..Lance'll be back. And I don't care whether he's guilty or not" ..bothers me. Clearly.

Granville
09-16-2010, 04:01 PM
Lets go beat him to death, he is not worthy of the air we breath , obviously the girl did absolutely nothing wrong, was shivering in a corner like a dove

Lance will never change he is a predator awaiting his next victum, and we should execute before trial

I am on the board of directors of an abused women's shelter. I have seen first hand the trauma this causes to families. I have met women who were later murdered by the abuser. I have met children who were later murdered by the abuser.

He is innocent until proven guilty. But if guilty, there is nothing wrong with hoping he does jail time. Also, to make your point by acting like the girl may have been responsible for it is pathetic.

purdue101
09-16-2010, 04:07 PM
You need to ease up shorty, I didnt push the girl down the stairs

Would you be happy if Lance got multiple years in prison , then lost the ability to ever provide for her daughter in the way he can now?

Does that make for a better world? Or should we take him outside and beat him to death. Thank God your not part of the jury you have already convicted him predjudicaly, before the trial

Please try reading the entire post before launching your attack. Sookie clearly states the opinion is based upon his conviction. Key phrase - "if he's convicted"

Second, your logic is concerning. If I murder someone tomorrow, but have a child, I should be given a slap on the wrist? That's silly. IF Lance threw someone down the stairs and bashed their head against a step, he should go to jail. Every action has a consequence.

Unclebuck
09-16-2010, 04:08 PM
I still wish the Pacers could divorce themselves of Lance. But I understand that they have to go through the process. And if in 4 years he's as good a player as Wade, I wouldn't criticize the Pacers for getting rid of him.

And yes for the record, if Lance is guilty, if he did what is alleged, then he should get whatever punishment is coming under NY law. if that means a few years in prison, so be it

xBulletproof
09-16-2010, 04:31 PM
I think Sookie has more posts about Lance than all other subjects combined during their time on these boards. Probably dedicated more posts to it than Seth has the Blair/Tyler discussion, and that's a lot.

So many posts, and there hasn't been any new news since the first report. Talk about .....

:brokenrecord:

:deadhorse

Sookie
09-16-2010, 04:35 PM
I think Sookie has more posts about Lance than all other subjects combined during their time on these boards. Probably dedicated more posts to it than Seth has the Blair/Tyler discussion, and that's a lot.

So many posts, and there hasn't been any new news since the first report. Talk about .....

:brokenrecord:

:deadhorse

It's clearly a hot button for me. I'm not going to lie. And as I said, the concept of "WOOT we get Lance, I don't care if he's guilty." makes it especially hard for me to hold my tongue..

But I think Seth still wins with Blair/Tyler

90'sNBARocked
09-16-2010, 04:39 PM
Don't need to sarcastically imply the victim did something wrong to in order to defend Lance. All stories indicate that her "crime" was coming home late and her "punishment" was brutality.

Im not,

My point was that the perception that it went down exactly like some people say is subjective at best. If she was there with multiple friends, I highly doubt they stood by aas Lance allegdedly tossed her to the floor like a rag dall, then proceeded to mash her head agaginst ther stairs, as they stood idily by

90'sNBARocked
09-16-2010, 04:42 PM
The reality is, abusers rarely, if ever change. ESPECIALLY not in a sixth month period. Even people who really truly want to change have an especially hard time changing. (Chris Brown, for example, watched his step father abuse his mother his entire childhood, detested it, promised he'd never do it. But at the end of the day, had those issues to deal with, and did do it.) I don't think predator is the right word really. But I won't go into semantics.
Sorry for derailing the thread, but "Woohoo..Lance'll be back. And I don't care whether he's guilty or not" ..bothers me. Clearly.

I dont feel bad one bit about wanting Lance back, and happy if that happens

What I wonder is if your so vocal and admant if it was a man FALSEY accused of abuse/rape etc

Because the media wont dwell on the men that have been victims of false allegations

MLB007
09-16-2010, 04:45 PM
I'll go on record now saying that I believe that retaining Lance will come back to bite us in the ***.

I hope he proves me wrong.

It's already bitten us in the ***.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

90'sNBARocked
09-16-2010, 04:46 PM
He is innocent until proven guilty. But if guilty, there is nothing wrong with hoping he does jail time. Also, to make your point by acting like the girl may have been responsible for it is pathetic

Hold up

Your reasoning is pathetic

Not one time did I make the girl responsible. I simply stated that I doubt she was this little defensive dove frightened in a corner , with zero accoutnability

I was born and raised in Brooklyn and know that the majority of the women there are not push overs and would at least attempt to defend themselves

Also because you work for a shelter does not mean you have to bash me

If anyone you should understand that abuse is not only one sided, and there is a thing called due proces

I dont adviocate in any way hitting a woman, and I nevr have , but I have been slapped a couple times (not for inappropriate behavior)

MLB007
09-16-2010, 04:47 PM
hahah I lol'd
for the record (just clearing things up in case they go sour) he's not literally calling you a shorty, but shorty (or "shawty") is a fairly commonly used slang today generally used to address a girl. Singers/rappers love using it :D

Oh, so it's even more of an insult than it looked originally. ?? Ha Ha :rolleyes:

MLB007
09-16-2010, 04:50 PM
Sorry for derailing the thread, but "Woohoo..Lance'll be back. And I don't care whether he's guilty or not" ..bothers me. Clearly.

Know that it should bother you. And understand that some can't grasp large concepts like social and moral responsibility.
JUST HOOP IT MAN!! :dance:

Sookie
09-16-2010, 04:51 PM
I dont feel bad one bit about wanting Lance back, and happy if that happens

What I wonder is if your so vocal and admant if it was a man FALSEY accused of abuse/rape etc

Because the media wont dwell on the men that have been victims of false allegations

No I'm not as vocal because falsley accusing someone of something is not as bad as abusing them.

However, it is wrong and it does bother me. One, it does derail that man's life, which is unfair. And really, there's no way to get what he lost back. And also because it took incredibly long for women to have a voice in court. To have things such as violence against women be seen as criminal and not "a private matter" that anytime a woman falsley accusses a man of something, it goes "against the cause." Despite the fact that only about 2 to 3 percent of rapes are false accusations, I'd guess it's even lower for domestic violence.

Also, there's a difference between being an abuser and a survivor. The women who "defend" themselves. Are survivors. And still did nothing wrong. The men who are controlling them, who are striking them first, who are treating them like property. They are abusers. (and it works both ways, if women are doing it to men.) It's typically pretty obvious which one is which. You're also forgetting Lance is a strong 6'5 and these things happen fast.

Eddie Gill
09-16-2010, 05:38 PM
Here's a nightmare scenario that I can't seem to shake from the back of my head:

For whatever reason, this blows over (be it via 'not guilty' verdict, probation, whatever) and Lance stays with the team. He keeps his head down, goes to therapy, and everybody moves on. Eventually, he starts earning some minutes and impresses. Maybe a year or two passes and he starts showing more than just flashes of his potential. The Pacers are contenders in the east again, and Lance is becoming an increasingly critical part of the team - and gaining more national attention. All of a sudden, he slips up - makes some kind of mistake and ends up in legal trouble and the Pacers are in an even worse situation than they were before.

I hope Lance is innocent (obviously) and becomes as good of a player for the Pacers as everyone thinks he has the potential to do - but if you've followed this team at all the past 6 years you've got to be worried already, especially given his past.

90'sNBARocked
09-16-2010, 05:41 PM
It's clearly a hot button for me. I'm not going to lie. And as I said, the concept of "WOOT we get Lance, I don't care if he's guilty." makes it especially hard for me to hold my tongue..

But I think Seth still wins with Blair/Tyler

I understand, but I dont recal anyone saying "Yeah we get Lance and I dont care if he is guilty"

I could be wrong though

Trophy
09-16-2010, 05:43 PM
Clark is a tough guy.

I hope Lance really is disciplined well by him.

90'sNBARocked
09-16-2010, 05:43 PM
Know that it should bother you. And understand that some can't grasp large concepts like social and moral responsibility.
JUST HOOP IT MAN!! :dance:

How is the air up there on your grand pedestal?

BornReady
09-16-2010, 05:46 PM
How is the air up there on your grand pedestal?

It helps him to be very socially and morally responsible.

90'sNBARocked
09-16-2010, 05:51 PM
No I'm not as vocal because falsley accusing someone of something is not as bad as abusing them.

However, it is wrong and it does bother me. One, it does derail that man's life, which is unfair. And really, there's no way to get what he lost back. And also because it took incredibly long for women to have a voice in court. To have things such as violence against women be seen as criminal and not "a private matter" that anytime a woman falsley accusses a man of something, it goes "against the cause." Despite the fact that only about 2 to 3 percent of rapes are false accusations, I'd guess it's even lower for domestic violence.

Also, there's a difference between being an abuser and a survivor. The women who "defend" themselves. Are survivors. And still did nothing wrong. The men who are controlling them, who are striking them first, who are treating them like property. They are abusers. (and it works both ways, if women are doing it to men.) It's typically pretty obvious which one is which. You're also forgetting Lance is a strong 6'5 and these things happen fast.

You make some very good points here

90'sNBARocked
09-16-2010, 05:52 PM
It helps him to be very socially and morally responsible.

LMAO

Jon Theodore
09-16-2010, 07:03 PM
I'll go on record now saying that I believe that retaining Lance will come back to bite us in the ***.

I hope he proves me wrong.

How could it possibly bite us?

Lets say he does something stupid again, then the Pacers would obviously immediately cut him and say "Well we tried to give Lance a second chance, but we can't put up with this behavior." End of story.

Anyone who thinks bad Public Relations is killing the Pacers is kidding themselves...LOSING GAMES IS THE ONLY ISSUE THE PACERS HAVE! PERIOD! Winning solves everything. Die hard fans are going to be there no matter what, fair weather fans will come back when we win...it's really simple.

It's very easy to just throw Lance under the bus and cut our ties with him. That takes zero effort and zero though process. It is much more difficult (and compassionate) to do what the Pacers are doing...try to mentor the kid and steer him in the right direction.

Remember, we are all human beings just like Lance and until we have walked a mile in his shoes it's VERY easy to judge him. It's not quite as easy to HELP him get his life in the right direction. You might ask....how can I as a fan help steer lance in the right direction?

The answer is simple...go to the games and CHEER FOR HIM! Let him know Indiana has his back!

Jon Theodore
09-16-2010, 07:07 PM
Don't need to sarcastically imply the victim did something wrong to in order to defend Lance. All stories indicate that her "crime" was coming home late and her "punishment" was brutality.

I like the word brutality...seems very accurate considering she did not go to the hospital.

Sookie
09-16-2010, 07:13 PM
I like the word brutality...seems very accurate considering she did not go to the hospital.

Except she did. And she has a restraining order against him. (Which is normal)

Hicks
09-16-2010, 07:35 PM
Except she did. And she has a restraining order against him. (Which is normal)

Link re: restraining order? First I recall seeing that.

Jon Theodore
09-16-2010, 08:01 PM
Except she did. And she has a restraining order against him. (Which is normal)

I stand corrected then...what were the extent of her injuries? They must have been severe.

Blink
09-16-2010, 08:03 PM
I think Sookie has more posts about Lance than all other subjects combined during their time on these boards.



Sookie is actually saving you from reading even more posts. I agree with everything (she?) has said on this topic, saving me from posting. Does that help?

And I find it hard to believe Sookie has posted more about this than about AJ :)

xBulletproof
09-16-2010, 08:09 PM
It's clearly a hot button for me. I'm not going to lie. And as I said, the concept of "WOOT we get Lance, I don't care if he's guilty." makes it especially hard for me to hold my tongue..

But I think Seth still wins with Blair/Tyler

I could have guessed something caused this to be such an issue with you, as I feel the same way about Kstat, and said it before in another thread. Mostly to try to keep people from going overboard after him considering he's a bit more ..... abrasive than you, and not first and foremost a Pacers fan. Makes him a bit more of a target, not that he'll shy from that, but it just makes for annoying reading. lol

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showpost.php?p=1052124&postcount=29

If I were you I'd consider ignoring threads that blatantly involve it. I would imagine it gets you a bit riled up and it's not truly worth the aggravation. I've had to do that with discussions involving something I'm personally attached to. Besides, people have chosen their sides and no amount of arguing will change their opinions. It's kinda on the level with arguing politics or religion. Might as well kick and scream at a brick wall.

Most importantly however I'm sorry for whatever happened to you, or someone you know to cause this to be an issue for you. I hope it's over, and in your past, to stay.

Sookie
09-16-2010, 08:13 PM
Link re: restraining order? First I recall seeing that.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/hoop_star_phone_frenzy_W2DLhoDTvoGIZwiedSuJIM

This isn't where I originally saw it. But really, it's actually very normal. (In fact, don't quote me but I actually think pretty much all domestic abuse cases involve some sort of restraining order once a person has been charged. As it is important that the alleged abuser isn't able to contact the victim..)

xBulletproof - sorry if it's cyclic, yea..the rah rah feminist comes out in me, and perhaps I should just stay out of the thread. I just don't like downplaying what happened in this situation, and it had been downplayed until I said something..

90'sNBARocked
09-16-2010, 08:14 PM
I could have guessed something caused this to be such an issue with you, as I feel the same way about Kstat, and said it before in another thread. Mostly to try to keep people from going overboard after him considering he's a bit more ..... abrasive than you, and not first and foremost a Pacers fan. Makes him a bit more of a target, not that he'll shy from that, but it just makes for annoying reading. lol

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showpost.php?p=1052124&postcount=29

If I were you I'd consider ignoring threads that blatantly involve it. I would imagine it gets you a bit riled up and it's not truly worth the aggravation. I've had to do that with discussions involving something I'm personally attached to. Besides, people have chosen their sides and no amount of arguing will change their opinions. It's kinda on the level with arguing politics or religion. Might as well kick and scream at a brick wall.

Most importantly however I'm sorry for whatever happened to you, or someone you know to cause this to be an issue for you. I hope it's over, and in your past, to stay.


Very nicely put

judicata
09-16-2010, 08:30 PM
Sookie is actually saving you from reading even more posts. I agree with everything (she?) has said on this topic, saving me from posting. Does that help?

And I find it hard to believe Sookie has posted more about this than about AJ :)

Agreed.

I imagine she posts a lot on the subject because there is usually a subtext of "*****es be crazy" running through these threads. If she wasn't all over it, I might be.

There are a lot pf popular myths about the American legal justice system that cannot survive empirical scrutiny. The belief that false accusations are running rampant through the courts is among them.

These charges are very serious, and I have not seen any evidence to dispute the victim's and witnesses' claims. Trying to marginalize them or use the "*****es be crazy" defense is in poor taste.

McKeyFan
09-16-2010, 08:35 PM
I could have guessed something caused this to be such an issue with you, as I feel the same way about Kstat, and said it before in another thread. Mostly to try to keep people from going overboard after him considering he's a bit more ..... abrasive than you, and not first and foremost a Pacers fan. Makes him a bit more of a target, not that he'll shy from that, but it just makes for annoying reading. lol

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showpost.php?p=1052124&postcount=29

If I were you I'd consider ignoring threads that blatantly involve it. I would imagine it gets you a bit riled up and it's not truly worth the aggravation. I've had to do that with discussions involving something I'm personally attached to. Besides, people have chosen their sides and no amount of arguing will change their opinions. It's kinda on the level with arguing politics or religion. Might as well kick and scream at a brick wall.

Most importantly however I'm sorry for whatever happened to you, or someone you know to cause this to be an issue for you. I hope it's over, and in your past, to stay.

I would also contrast Sookie's fair and accurate posts with others not so interested in rational, fair discussion that searches for the truth.

I tend to side more with 90sNBArocked and others in terms of wanting to be more open to the possibility of false accusations against Lance. So even though I "disagree" with Sookie, I have paid careful attention to her posts and found them reasonable and fair.

Is she passionate for her cause? Undoubtedly. But that's no crime on this board.

Noodle
09-16-2010, 09:00 PM
Despite the fact that only about 2 to 3 percent of rapes are false accusations, I'd guess it's even lower for domestic violence.


Really???? I don't believe that. Especially, when dealing with wealth. I've born witness to several situations in my life that suggest otherwise. I call misrepresentaion of fact.

Kstat
09-16-2010, 09:19 PM
Want me to stay away from these topics? The solution is pretty simple: stop begging for intervention with these ridiculous observations.

For the 1,000,497th time, if you want to support your guy, then fine. I'm not going to claim you're any worse for doing so. But do not insult the victim by treating him like an alcoholic or a crack addict. He didn't abuse himself, he abused another human being. The absolute last thing he deserves is pity. What the hell does he need a support group for? How hard is it to not beat up a woman? You need an entire city to rally behind you to not beat up women? Do you really want his thought process to be, damn she's late getting home again, I'm going to kick the **** out of- wait, all of Pacer Nation is counting on me, come on Lance, you can do this, put down the trembling fist, we're past that now....

Would the "easy" thing be to kick him to the curb? No, the "easy" thing would be to not beat up the mother of his child in the first place.

Hey, if the Pacers are going to keep him, then I really do this somehow motivates him to stay clean, and it makes my stomach churn to admit that. Not for his sake, but for the next woman that pisses him off. If it takes a lucrative NBA career, so be it.

As for me bring abrasive, sorry. Not going to temper myself on this topic. I'm not compromising on this one.

Sookie
09-16-2010, 09:20 PM
Really???? I don't believe that. Especially, when dealing with wealth. I've born witness to several situations in my life that suggest otherwise. I call misrepresentaion of fact.

Because the trials that we hear about have a higher chance of being false (the Bryant one for instance) And because despite what people think, we actually talk about women lying far more than the truth about the situation.

Women's groups will cite the 2%-3%, Wikipedia says somewhere between 2-8% which apparently most agree on. (and just for a little tidbit, it's estimated that only 25% of sexual assault cases are actually reported.) I tend to take the women's studies side, for a variety of reasons.


And this statistic is "girl lying or telling the truth about being raped" I'm not sure how it correlates to things like arresting the wrong guy because sometimes the girl just doesn't know. (Although, about 80% of sexual assaults are from men that women do know..so that wouldn't even be that huge of a jump)

This stat is obviously not "girl tells all her friends a guy raped her." It's a brought charges type of thing. But it's extremely rare for someone to lie about being sexually assaulted. There's a lot of humiliation (an examination, people questioning you, character assasination) that goes along with it..particularly the higher the class of the male that is being accused, that most women do not want to go there. (Plus, you're destroying a man's life when you lie about that.)

Kstat
09-16-2010, 09:28 PM
On top of all that, rape cases with no physical evidence rarely go to trial. Not often does a prosecutor go forward with rape charge without any actual evidence of rape.

The %2-%3 number actually seems kind of high to me, assuming its based on false cases that actually go to trial.

xBulletproof
09-16-2010, 09:34 PM
xBulletproof - sorry if it's cyclic, yea..the rah rah feminist comes out in me, and perhaps I should just stay out of the thread. I just don't like downplaying what happened in this situation, and it had been downplayed until I said something..

Understood.

I've just learned that one; people who think a certain way aren't likely to change because someone else makes some sense. They'll rationalize, change subjects and twist things to defend their side, even if only out of pride. Two; there's far, far, far too many people with opinions that are off base, or based off misconceptions to even begin to put a slight dent into the problem by arguing with the ones you find. To me, not even worth the aggravation.

I know I'd personally be tired of repeating myself at this point. I'd probably be trying to pull my hair out by now if I had to repeat myself that many times. lol

Anyway, I'll shut my face now. :)

Noodle
09-16-2010, 10:00 PM
On top of all that, rape cases with no physical evidence rarely go to trial. Not often does a prosecutor go forward with rape charge without any actual evidence of rape.

The %2-%3 number actually seems kind of high to me, assuming its based on false cases that actually go to trial.

Just checking the pulse, and if it comes from Kstat it must be true, lmao.

Jon Theodore
09-16-2010, 10:00 PM
So according to Kstat...every single time a woman pisses Lance off he will beat her. Just wanted to clarify that.

Kstat
09-16-2010, 10:03 PM
Yes, mr. strawman, that's exactly what I said.

Jon Theodore
09-16-2010, 10:07 PM
Lance Stephenson is going to HOOOOP so hard this year. Rookie of the year!!! BOOM BABY!!!

Kstat
09-16-2010, 10:08 PM
....and that's exactly what you said.

BornReady
09-16-2010, 10:09 PM
guys seriously?

Jon Theodore
09-16-2010, 10:10 PM
hahaha yeah pretty true Kstat.

Jon Theodore
09-16-2010, 10:12 PM
Guys in all seriousness. Clark Kellogg was born ready to mentor troubled 19 year old phenoms.

xBulletproof
09-16-2010, 10:18 PM
Time to take my own advice. Any topics with "Lance" in the original post, will now merit an immediate "ignore thread" from me.

These things never go anywhere different than where they've been. Which isn't anywhere good.

mildlysane
09-16-2010, 11:30 PM
Wasn't he let out of jail without any bail having to be paid? It seems to me that if it was as serious as some think, that he would have had to post a large bail. The judge just let him walk away and now he is in another State. I would bet that if you truly beat your GF up, threw her down the stairs and then bashed her head on the step, you would definitely have to post some kind of bond to get out of jail. It isn't like Lance is some huge superstar and has all kinds of pull. Perhaps I am wrong....

Hicks
09-16-2010, 11:34 PM
Wasn't he let out of jail without any bail having to be paid? It seems to me that if it was as serious as some think, that he would have had to post a large bail. The judge just let him walk away and now he is in another State. I would bet that if you truly beat your GF up, threw her down the stairs and then bashed her head on the step, you would definitely have to post some kind of bond to get out of jail. It isn't like Lance is some huge superstar and has all kinds of pull. Perhaps I am wrong....

If that's true (and I don't know), then that's an interesting observation.

I have to say, if it looked like the initial reports were accurate, I find it hard to believe the Pacers would be handling it the way they seem to be handling it, which is to say it looks like they expect Lance to play for the team moving forward.

El Pacero
09-16-2010, 11:38 PM
"Lance Stephenson arrest detailed"
Associated Press
ESPN.com
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5467630

"A judge released Stephenson, 19, without bail late Sunday night after his arrest on assault, menacing and harassment charges. Prosecutors had asked for $7,500 bail."

judicata
09-16-2010, 11:42 PM
The kid is broke and trying to play pro ball. He doesn't need bail because he isn't going to run, is very conspicuous, and already has a sufficient amount of incentives to show up to court.

Sookie
09-16-2010, 11:45 PM
Wasn't he let out of jail without any bail having to be paid? It seems to me that if it was as serious as some think, that he would have had to post a large bail. The judge just let him walk away and now he is in another State. I would bet that if you truly beat your GF up, threw her down the stairs and then bashed her head on the step, you would definitely have to post some kind of bond to get out of jail. It isn't like Lance is some huge superstar and has all kinds of pull. Perhaps I am wrong....

Judges can pretty much do what they want in that circumstance. Not sure why he wouldn't have bail..but the judge is free to do what he or she likes.

I think the Pacers are treating him like he's innocent until proven guilty. Which is fair. It could bite them in the butt, but it's fair. (It also allows for perhaps some other team to think about taking a chance on him, and allowing the Pacers to trade him, thereby saving a little more than a million.)

cdash
09-17-2010, 12:28 AM
I think the Pacers are treating him like he's innocent until proven guilty. Which is fair. It could bite them in the butt, but it's fair. (It also allows for perhaps some other team to think about taking a chance on him, and allowing the Pacers to trade him, thereby saving a little more than a million.)

I wanna play!

Really, the Pacers are playing it the only way they can. If they would have cut ties with him immediately upon hearing the news, and it turns out that he was innocent, they look like a poorly run organization that doesn't support its players. Agents will be less inclined to tell their clients to work out for the Pacers and so on and so forth. They really had to wait until the legal system played itself out before they reprimanded him. If it turns out he is guilty, then I think the Pacers will respond accordingly. If he gets sentenced to jail time, they will probably cut ties with him. I really don't think this bites them in the butt unless he ****s up again after all this is said and done. Which wouldn't surprise me.

Sparhawk
09-17-2010, 07:45 AM
The Pacers will keep Lance regardless of the outcome, which I hope and pray he's innocent. These are serious charges, but at some point, the Pacers can't get rid of every problem player. No one will want to play here, and it's difficult enough to get players to want to be here.

Tinsley, Artest, Jax, etc, they were all veterans that should know better. Lance is a kid and I disagree whole-heartedly about just cutting him and dropping him to the side, cause he does need counseling and mentoring. The Pacers are a classy organization and have a lot of players and personnel to help Lance get on the right track. It's definitely a mix of helping Lance become a better person, but it's also a business and the guy has great NBA talent.

90'sNBARocked
09-17-2010, 10:33 AM
Want me to stay away from these topics? The solution is pretty simple: stop begging for intervention with these ridiculous observations.

For the 1,000,497th time, if you want to support your guy, then fine. I'm not going to claim you're any worse for doing so. But do not insult the victim by treating him like an alcoholic or a crack addict. He didn't abuse himself, he abused another human being. The absolute last thing he deserves is pity. What the hell does he need a support group for? How hard is it to not beat up a woman? You need an entire city to rally behind you to not beat up women? Do you really want his thought process to be, damn she's late getting home again, I'm going to kick the **** out of- wait, all of Pacer Nation is counting on me, come on Lance, you can do this, put down the trembling fist, we're past that now....

Would the "easy" thing be to kick him to the curb? No, the "easy" thing would be to not beat up the mother of his child in the first place.

Hey, if the Pacers are going to keep him, then I really do this somehow motivates him to stay clean, and it makes my stomach churn to admit that. Not for his sake, but for the next woman that pisses him off. If it takes a lucrative NBA career, so be it.

As for me bring abrasive, sorry. Not going to temper myself on this topic. I'm not compromising on this one.

What gives you the right to judge him so harshly?

Do you look in the mirror or are you The Lord Jesus Christ : completely sin free

MrSparko
09-17-2010, 11:04 AM
We're not asking him to not gamble or drink. Just to please not punch women in the face.

beast23
09-17-2010, 12:43 PM
The Pacers will keep Lance regardless of the outcome, which I hope and pray he's innocent. These are serious charges, but at some point, the Pacers can't get rid of every problem player. No one will want to play here, and it's difficult enough to get players to want to be here.Really?

I agree that the Pacers can't get rid of every problem player. But I think we need to make distinctions. As an example, in a hypothetical thread about acquiring Jamal Crawford, one thing that was indicated was that Crawford took an "extend me or trade me" stance with the Hawks. Crawford is clearly a "problem player" for them and a distraction, but certainly wouldn't warrant being kicked to the curb just because of his stance.

Had Artest's only indiscretion been his loss of temper in Detroit, it probably would have been considered a one-time thing and he would have been retained. However, historical and repeated distractions regarding Artest had to also be considered and the Pacers were eventually compelled to take action.

But Lance's "indiscretion", if proven, is certainly on a level all its own from the prior two examples. As we can see from posts in this thread, the charges involve a particulary hot, devisive topic... and so far we are just dealing with the fan base that is resident here on Pacer Digest. Now let's multiply that emotion by several thousand to cover nearly every Pacer fan, because nearly every Pacer fan would have an opinion on this topic, whether that opinion were ever stated to another human being.

So, if the allegations are proven, there is only one action to take. And that is to publicly separate themselves from Lance as quickly as possible. From a business perspective, that is their only choice. It shows that the Pacers have learned from prior mistakes, and it would be the best choice to avoid distractions, put it behind them and re-unify their fan base.

Sparhawk
09-17-2010, 01:03 PM
Really?

I agree that the Pacers can't get rid of every problem player. But I think we need to make distinctions. As an example, in a hypothetical thread about acquiring Jamal Crawford, one thing that was indicated was that Crawford took an "extend me or trade me" stance with the Hawks. Crawford is clearly a "problem player" for them and a distraction, but certainly wouldn't warrant being kicked to the curb just because of his stance.

Had Artest's only indiscretion been his loss of temper in Detroit, it probably would have been considered a one-time thing and he would have been retained. However, historical and repeated distractions regarding Artest had to also be considered and the Pacers were eventually compelled to take action.

But Lance's "indiscretion", if proven, is certainly on a level all its own from the prior two examples. As we can see from posts in this thread, the charges involve a particulary hot, devisive topic... and so far we are just dealing with the fan base that is resident here on Pacer Digest. Now let's multiply that emotion by several thousand to cover nearly every Pacer fan, because nearly every Pacer fan would have an opinion on this topic, whether that opinion were ever stated to another human being.

So, if the allegations are proven, there is only one action to take. And that is to publicly separate themselves from Lance as quickly as possible. From a business perspective, that is their only choice. It shows that the Pacers have learned from prior mistakes, and it would be the best choice to avoid distractions, put it behind them and re-unify their fan base.

That's all well for you and I respect your opinion. I'm glad the Pacers actually took a chance on Lance. If the Pacers only select Tyler Hansborough type players moving forward, I might not be a fan. It's still an entertainment business and if you have a low quality product you are going to lose fans. It's a dicey situation for the Pacers being in a small market with a hurt fanbase. I believe Lance is young enough that you stick with him. If this behavior continues, then I think you then distance yourself from him.

If Lance is found guilty, and the Pacers release him, I'll have no issue with their decision, but I truly hope they give him another chance and get him the help and support he needs to become a better person and player. Ultimately it's up to Lance to make something of his life/career or to just throw it away.

Kuq_e_Zi91
09-17-2010, 01:13 PM
But Lance's "indiscretion", if proven, is certainly on a level all its own from the prior two examples. As we can see from posts in this thread, the charges involve a particulary hot, devisive topic... and so far we are just dealing with the fan base that is resident here on Pacer Digest. Now let's multiply that emotion by several thousand to cover nearly every Pacer fan, because nearly every Pacer fan would have an opinion on this topic, whether that opinion were ever stated to another human being.

So, if the allegations are proven, there is only one action to take. And that is to publicly separate themselves from Lance as quickly as possible. From a business perspective, that is their only choice. It shows that the Pacers have learned from prior mistakes, and it would be the best choice to avoid distractions, put it behind them and re-unify their fan base.

To be honest, I think we, meaning the last few remaining die-hards, are the only ones who care this much. The thousands that you speak of are casual fans who will return if the team starts winning. I'm not saying that's the right thing, but people have a selective, convenient amnesia when things are looking up. The proverbial, "What have you done for me lately?"

Jon Theodore
09-17-2010, 01:34 PM
I have a very large extended family (40 people) and we get together for birthdays, holidays, etc and everyone always talks to me about the Pacers (knowing I am a die hard.)

They are all casual fans and don't even know who Lance Stephenson is, let alone the trouble he has been in. If he comes in and plays well he will be a "casual fan favorite."

Basically what Kuq_e_Zi91 said.

Kstat
09-17-2010, 02:05 PM
What gives you the right to judge him so harshly?

Do you look in the mirror or are you The Lord Jesus Christ : completely sin free

What makes you think Christian beliefs are applicable to everyone you meet?

When you look in the mirror, do you see Allah?

Here's my right: I have yet to beat a woman. That's my lofty, impossible standard. Maybe you believe beating women is a simple mistake like jaywalking?

Hicks
09-17-2010, 02:21 PM
:banghead: