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Hicks
08-14-2004, 09:37 PM
I miss Brad so f***in much it's not even funny. If you were to take our current roster, and swap Scot with Brad we'd be so balanced and complete it's not even f***ing funny. I think that Shaq thread Peck started got me thinking about him again.

You could take your concerns over Brad or those someone may have convinced you to have over Brad, double them, and I'd STILL say if he were here right now, we'd be ready to win a title. I mean, as of right now we're almost there. So close I want to say we're ready, but I don't know. But if that one mistake could be reversed, I woudln't teeter-totter around it, I'd just say it. It's time to win a title. I'm not saying it would be handed to us. There are 4 or 5 other teams that have something to say about my statement. But I'd say we're on par with any of them, possibly without Brad, but certainly with him.

I dunno, for some reason today it just hit me again that he's gone, and what that means for the team I love. It's been a depressing day today for me, so I guess that's what invited this idle thinking.

Point is; I miss the best NBA center this franchise had. Look at this and you'll see why I'd say "time for a ring"

Tinsley/Johnson
Jackson/Miller
Artest/Bender
O'Neal/Croshere
Miller/Foster

We're so close, but I often fear not quite close enough. That one switch would push my confidence over the top. It's so damn close it's not even funny.

I admit I'm being a drama queen here; it just smarts. :cry:

http://www.masbasket.com/imagen/imagen-03/imagen-03-31/BradMiller_Salta.jpg

SoupIsGood
08-14-2004, 09:44 PM
I admit, we are one good center away from being a clear-cut best in the league title contender. I think we have to hope either Bender or Harrison proves themselves next year. I would prefer Harrison. If Harrison were to be on the all rookie team I think we'd be the best team in the league. But if Bender finally breaks out, we can trade artest for a center and let Bender start. Thats why I think we should wait on trading Artest, also.

MSA2CF
08-14-2004, 09:52 PM
This might help you, Hicks.

My Heart Will Go On

Every night in my dreams I see you, I feel you,
That is how I know you go on.

Far across the distance and spaces between us
You have come to show you go on.

Near, far, wherever you are,
I believe that the heart does go on.

Once more, you open the door
And you're here in my heart,
And my heart will go on and on.

Love can touch us one time and last for a lifetime,
And never let go till we're gone.

Love was when I loved you, one true time I hold to.
In my life we'll always go on.

Near, far, wherever you are,
I believe that the heart does go on.

Once more, you open the door
And you're here in my heart,
And my heart will go on and on.

Instrumental Interlude

You're here, there's nothing I fear,
And I know that my heart will go on.

We'll stay forever this way.
You are safe in my heart,
And my heart will go on and on.

On and on...on and on
---

Psst, MagicRat, I bet you could have a field day with this. ;)

SoupIsGood
08-14-2004, 09:57 PM
Whoo old knicks reggie game on NBA TV! Boom Baby!

MSA2CF
08-14-2004, 10:01 PM
Wait a minute. I think I know why Brad gets hurt down the stretch...Could it be that Brad is also known as the WWE's "The Undertaker"? All the wrestling on the side must take its toll on him. :o

http://olympia.fortunecity.com/undertaker/692/undiereturn/return023.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v257/MSA2CF/efbb760b.jpg

How dooooes he do it?

naptown
08-14-2004, 10:02 PM
Hey Hicks....we would have won this year if we would have had Brad....we could be talking dynasty if we would have kept him.

RimBender
08-14-2004, 10:10 PM
I cried reading your post, MSA. :cry:

Pig Nash
08-14-2004, 10:15 PM
Which one? :laugh: Seriously.

RimBender
08-14-2004, 10:21 PM
Which one? :laugh: Seriously.

The "My Heart Will Go On" one, and yes I did cry :laugh::p

Vicious Tyrant
08-14-2004, 10:37 PM
Oh Rimbender, I'm with you. Pass me a tissue. MSA has proved his salt today.

Hicks, you're so right and it deserves more comment, but MSA has stolen the show.

MSA, if you would permit me...

"Another night slowly closes in and I feel so lonely
Touching heat freezing on my skin I pretend you still hold me
I'm going crazy I'm losing sleep I'm in too far
I'm in way too deep over Brad Miller
I can't believe Brad Miller's gone
He was the first He'll be the last

CHORUS:
Wherever you go I'll be with him
Whatever you want I'll give it to Brad Miller
Whenever you need someone
To lay your heart and head upon
Remember after the fire After all the rain
Brad Miller will be the flame

Watching shadows move across the wall
Feels so fright'ning
I wanna run to you I wanna call
But I've been hit by lightning
Just can't stand up for falling apart
Can't see through this veil across my heart over Brad Miller
I can't believe he's gone
He was the first he'll be the last

CHORUS:

I'm going crazy I'm losing sleep
I'm in way too deep over Brad Miller
He'll always be the one
He was the first he'll be the last"

Peck
08-14-2004, 10:40 PM
Songs aside, this is the worst trade in Pacers history.

Can anyboyd name one other trade that even comes close.

Alex English for Big Mac was horrid as well, but the honest truth is that Alex didn't show the offensive prowess when he was with the team.

Pig Nash
08-14-2004, 10:41 PM
:cry:

Sollozzo
08-14-2004, 11:53 PM
What ticks me off so much, is that we robbed the the Bulls so badly in 2002, and then turned around and pulled one of the worst trades in NBA history.

MSA2CF
08-14-2004, 11:55 PM
So you'd rather have had Ron Mercer than Scot Pollard?

Sollozzo
08-15-2004, 12:01 AM
You think we're crying over Ron Mercer?

I think we're upset that we gave up a then 1 time allstar, and now a 2 time allstar for a bum.

What kind of question is "would you rather have had Ron Mercer than Scot Pollard?"

No one cares about Ron Mercer, but we would all rather have Brad Miller than Scot Pollard.

Hicks
08-15-2004, 12:17 AM
Adam is right, who gives a s*** about Mercer. His contract would be up right now, but Brad could have remained.

Pig Nash
08-15-2004, 12:23 AM
I think MSA is joking. Also, it must be a slow bit for us when we're back to Brad. :rolleyes: :woozy:

Unclebuck
08-15-2004, 12:26 AM
I don't really agree that Brad would be the missing link and I don't agree that if the Pacers had Brad they would have beaten the Pistons.

It is like the argument that if the 2000 team had AD the Pacers would have beaten the Lakers.

I have started more than a few threads in the aftermath of the Pacers loss to the Pistons, that the Pacers did not lose to the Pistons because of the frontcourt positions. They lost because of the guards, and Brad does not play guard.

Peck, I do not consider it a trade. And even if I did the trade was not Brad for Scot.

I am sensing a little revisionist history taking place here on about three accounts.


.

Sollozzo
08-15-2004, 12:26 AM
What makes me so mad is that I can think of 3 players we have that are overpaid, Croshere, Reggie, and Pollard. Brad would be more valuable than all three of them combined. You dont trade an all-star center for a player you barely use.

I'm sorry, Reggie lovers, but Reggie didnt live up to the contract he had last year. I'm ready for Reggie to retire and move on. It upsets me to no end to think that we paid a fairly large amount of money for a couple sentimental years to Reggie and chose not to pay a top center in the game, who is currently a 2 time allstar.

Unclebuck
08-15-2004, 12:30 AM
I am banging my head against my keyboard because I thought we had completely exhausted every issue being discussed here.

Going back to watch the Olympics

Hicks
08-15-2004, 12:33 AM
Yeah, Adam, I forgot that part. Brad Miller wasn't worth $7 a year, but Reggie at age 38 was apparently worth $6. :unimpressed:

Young
08-15-2004, 12:40 AM
I hate to say this but we could have kept Brad and signed Jackson last summer if we would have sent Harrington/Croshere to Minnesota for Terrell Brandon.:mad:

I was so glad that we didn't sign Brad last summer because I thought he wanted to much, damn it he proved me wrong. Now I want him back so badly its not even funny.

Sollozzo
08-15-2004, 12:41 AM
Antonio Davis was a player that didn't start, Brad Miller is a top 5 center that is an allstar.

An allstar Center would not have hurt against the Pistons.

bulletproof
08-15-2004, 12:46 AM
I don't really agree that Brad would be the missing link and I don't agree that if the Pacers had Brad they would have beaten the Pistons.

It is like the argument that if the 2000 team had AD the Pacers would have beaten the Lakers.

I have started more than a few threads in the aftermath of the Pacers loss to the Pistons, that the Pacers did not lose to the Pistons because of the frontcourt positions. They lost because of the guards, and Brad does not play guard.

Peck, I do not consider it a trade. And even if I did the trade was not Brad for Scot.

I am sensing a little revisionist history taking place here on about three accounts.

Great post, UB. Agree 100% with this.



I am banging my head against my keyboard because I thought we had completely exhausted every issue being discussed here.

Going back to watch the Olympics.

Apparently you are considered a sage here on all things Pacers, UB, except when it comes to the topic of Brad Miller. :rolleyes:

Hicks
08-15-2004, 12:50 AM
I don't agree at all. AD is much more comparible to Al than he is to Brad. Both were backups who wanted to start, but weren't good enough to start over those ahead of them, so they were shipped.

Brad was a starting all-star center who we refused to pay about 1/2 the amount we're paying our other all-star. And we shipped him and our expiring contract (decent trade bait) for Pollard and Turkoglu, who we merely packaged w/ Mercer for an expiring contract and a trade exemption we never used.

I'll also remind you that Jeff Foster would still be here. It's not about Jeff vs Brad. It's about Scot vs Brad.

bulletproof
08-15-2004, 12:51 AM
I hate to say this but we could have kept Brad and signed Jackson last summer if we would have sent Harrington/Croshere to Minnesota for Terrell Brandon.:mad:

I was so glad that we didn't sign Brad last summer because I thought he wanted to much, damn it he proved me wrong. Now I want him back so badly its not even funny.

I wonder if GMs wallow in the past. Uhhhh...no.

Brad's been gone for over a year, people. We got much further without him than we ever did with him. Had we signed Brad, we wouldn't have been able to afford to fire Isiah and hire Rick, thus paying two coaches salaries. I'll take Rick over Brad anyday.

Time to move on, children.

Hicks
08-15-2004, 12:55 AM
If we'd wanted both badley enough, we could have had Brad and Rick. It's only swalling Isiah's contract for the season, and right now it's over with. Wow, saving some money for a year was sure with subtracting an all-star for 7 years, wasn't it?

Just because it's over with doesn't mean it was a good thing.

We got further than we ever did with him, becuase while he was here Isiah was coach. I hear you on Rick, but I don't think it would have been impossible to swallow Isiah's contract for a year while paying Brad too. Regardless of the cost (and it can't have been huge, Isiah wasn't making more than an average player salary at best, which again would be done with now), it would have been the correct long-term move.

You say we went further without him, I say, that's nice, but it's not like we got better because he left. If he hadn't left, we could be even better.

Sollozzo
08-15-2004, 12:56 AM
Things get so intense when Brad Miller is brought up, simply because its very upsetting to trade a very good player in Brad, who is an allstar, for a player you rarely use(yet pay alot of money too). This is one of the worst trades in NBA history, and it ticked alot of fans off.

Hicks hit the nail on the head when he said that it is a case of it being Brad vs. Pollard. I for one would much rather have Jeff Foster coming off of the bench, backing up Brad Miller.

Kegboy
08-15-2004, 01:04 AM
Well, funny songs aside, it's sad to see Hicks fall off the wagon. He's worked so hard to be Brad-free, and to see him give in like this is really disappointing.

Just hang in there Hicks. I've already called the boys at Bellevue. They'll be there shortly, and they'll make everything all better. :straightjacketsmilie:

Seriously, the issue is Brad vs. Jeff. People forget that when Brad was on the roster, Jeff was splitting mop-up minutes with Austin. JO would still be getting the backup C minutes because Al's natural position is the 4. Jeff would be the odd-man out of the rotation, and at best would of gotten Croshere's minutes.

We'd be a much better offensive team with Brad, but our defensive front wouldn't be nearly as good. Everything's a trade off. :shrug:

Lord Helmet
08-15-2004, 01:39 AM
Who do you guys think the Kings would want for him?That is if they would even think about trading him.I feel your pain Hicks.I wish the Pacers would have paid Brad what he asked or worked something out.Because I really don't think Brad wanted to go.If we would have kept him we could have been talking about a repeat instead of "Why didn't Reg dunk it?":cry:

SoupIsGood
08-15-2004, 02:18 AM
Uhhmmm.. soo.. what kinda center do you think Artest could get us? Are there any teams willing to part with their centers? Magloire would be nice. I've always thought Foster would be a better back-up center, much like a Mark Madsen energy player. We really need a starting quality center a lot more than someone like say, Peja.

ROCislandWarrior
08-15-2004, 03:23 AM
Uhhmmm.. soo.. what kinda center do you think Artest could get us? Are there any teams willing to part with their centers? Magloire would be nice. I've always thought Foster would be a better back-up center, much like a Mark Madsen energy player. We really need a starting quality center a lot more than someone like say, Peja.

I just don't see how trading Ron for a center not named Shaq or Duncan is going to help this team.

I hope the Front Office is focusing in on getting Dampier now...signing him is becoming more of a reality with everyday that passes.

Unclebuck
08-15-2004, 09:32 AM
I am really confused as to why this topic is coming up now


Question: What part of the Pistons series makes anyone think that if only the Pacers had Brad Miller the Pacers would have won.

Would Brad have guarded Sheed as well as Jeff did. No.

I know the argument is if Brad is in the game because of his midrange shooting and passing the Pistons would not have been able to leave Brad open as they did Jeff. True the Pistons did not guard Jeff outside of 10 feet, but inside of 10 feet and when a shot went up the Pistons quickly found Jeff to keep him off the offensive glass.

Pistons rarely doubled J.O anyways, but the few times they did it was with their point guard.


Question: How many game do you think the Pacers would have won if the Pacers did re-sign Brad last season. Do you think 65 after reading some of these posts in this thread, it appears you think maybe 70.

I'll say again what I have been saying for the past 13 months now I believe the Pacers did not want to be paying Brad for 7 years at the rates they would have had to for years 4 through 7.

have you not read the rumors out of Sacramento about the Kings looking to trade Brad. Or about how Webber is not happy with Brad. Or do you forget Brad got injured again after the allstar break again and was not very effective in the playoffs.


One last thing, Hicks you mentioned something about Brad being paid half as much as the Pacers other allstar. I assume you mean J.O. Not really sure what your point was, but I hope you are not equating the two players.

Peck
08-15-2004, 10:06 AM
I am really confused as to why this topic is coming up now


Question: What part of the Pistons series makes anyone think that if only the Pacers had Brad Miller the Pacers would have won.

Would Brad have guarded Sheed as well as Jeff did. No.

I know the argument is if Brad is in the game because of his midrange shooting and passing the Pistons would not have been able to leave Brad open as they did Jeff. True the Pistons did not guard Jeff outside of 10 feet, but inside of 10 feet and when a shot went up the Pistons quickly found Jeff to keep him off the offensive glass.

Pistons rarely doubled J.O anyways, but the few times they did it was with their point guard.


Question: How many game do you think the Pacers would have won if the Pacers did re-sign Brad last season. Do you think 65 after reading some of these posts in this thread, it appears you think maybe 70.

I'll say again what I have been saying for the past 13 months now I believe the Pacers did not want to be paying Brad for 7 years at the rates they would have had to for years 4 through 7.

have you not read the rumors out of Sacramento about the Kings looking to trade Brad. Or about how Webber is not happy with Brad. Or do you forget Brad got injured again after the allstar break again and was not very effective in the playoffs.


One last thing, Hicks you mentioned something about Brad being paid half as much as the Pacers other allstar. I assume you mean J.O. Not really sure what your point was, but I hope you are not equating the two players.


You can blame me for the topic being brought up again. I was once again lamenting the fact that Shaq was in the East & eventually it degenerated into me stating I hated the Brad trade.

But since we're here & by virtue of you responding to this more than once I can only assume you want to talk about this. I guess I'll try & answer your questions for you.

1. The Pistons series. Obviously when you are playing the best defensive team in the league you have to find a way to score. Yes, our guards were horrid. Specifically Reggie in most of the series, but when you are that far along in the playoffs each player on the floor has to pull their weight at both ends of the floor. Foster, was so valuable in that series that the last few games he barely left the bench. How many points did the Pistons beat us by again? Do you not think Brad could have made up those points?

Look when it comes to Foster two things are for certain. I underestimate him & you overestimate him. I have never seen anybody outside of a person who wears b & G colored glasses say anything great about Jeff Foster. Most consider him a journeyman center at best. As to who Brad would guard? Before I answer that did Jeff do a great job of shuting them down? Either way I'll say this, Brad is not nearly the bad defender you try & make him out to be. He is crafty around the basket & he is strong as an ox. I want you to go back & look up the stats. for Brad vs. the Pistons when he was with the Pacers, I don't remember them right now but I always thought he did fairly well.

2. Regular season games I don't think we would have won one more game or lost one more either. This is a red herring. Well it is for almost everybody but you. Most of us consider Jeff a decent center, but Brad is considered a good center.

3. As to what you've been saying for 13 months. No, you said that the trade was because it was between Brad & Al. That was a good choice wasn't it?

4. According to rumors the Pacers are trying to trade Ron Artest. Your point?

5. Chris Webber? Are you kidding? That is akin to Jalen Rose being upset because his teammates don't play consistant defense.

6. Injured after the all-star game? You mean the one you said he wouldn't play in?

7. Yes, Hicks was making the point that Jermaine is making twice as much as Brad. IMO, that's fair. So why would Brad not deserve half as much. Let's look at thier on floor production shall we.

P.P.G. 14.1 20.1 J.O. wins here
R.P.G. 10.3 10.0 Brad wins here
A.P.G. 4.3 2.1 Brad wins here
S.P.G. .94 .76 Brad wins here
B.P.G. 1.19 2.55 J.O. wins here

Looks pretty close to me on paper, however both of us agree you can't use stats to totally evaluate a player.

I'd still say J.O. is a franchise player & should get top dollar. Brad however is a second franchise player & should deserves what he got.

BTW, you notice we are comparing Brad to J.O. there. The sad fact is we didn't have to, we could have had them working in tandem.

BTW, just for info let's look at Mr. Rebound's stats for the season.

PPG. 6.1
RPG. 7.4
APG. .8
SPG .87
BPG .33

Sorry it's not even close.

RimBender
08-15-2004, 10:15 AM
Brads gone. Thats it, he's gone, who cares about the what ifs.

What if Shaq would have came to the Pacers for Pollard. What if we traded Tinsley for Baron Davis. What if Phil Jackson became head coach. What if....... Its all noise. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Us fighting over the issue isn't going to all of a sudden bring him back, its useless to speak of the "What Ifs." Waste of time, IMO.

SoupIsGood
08-15-2004, 10:19 AM
Question: What part of the Pistons series makes anyone think that if only the Pacers had Brad Miller the Pacers would have won.



The part where foster could never get off the bench. We could of used a good center then, right? Foster is a good back-up center, but that's it.

indygeezer
08-15-2004, 10:29 AM
Pacers worst trade....was it Tom Owens for what turned out to be the (?) 2 or 3 pick in the draft. IIRC that would have been the Michael Jordan draft.
Help me out here guys, I'm having memory trouble lately.

Unclebuck
08-15-2004, 10:33 AM
But since we're here & by virtue of you responding to this more than once I can only assume you want to talk about this. I guess I'll try & answer your questions for you.

Do you not think Brad could have made up those points?

Most consider him a journeyman center at best. As to who Brad would guard? Before I answer that did Jeff do a great job of shuting them down? Either way I'll say this, Brad is not nearly the bad defender you try & make him out to be. He is crafty around the basket & he is strong as an ox. I want you to go back & look up the stats. for Brad vs. the Pistons when he was with the Pacers, I don't remember them right now but I always thought he did fairly well.

3. As to what you've been saying for 13 months. No, you said that the trade was because it was between Brad & Al. That was a good choice wasn't it?







Let me first say two things,

I don't really want to discuss this but there is nothing else to discuss.

I am not suggesting that Jeff is a better player than Brad. But I am suggesting that Jeff is a very good fit for this team, J.O likes him, and J.O was not upset that Brad was let go. And I am suggesting that Jeff is a better defender than Brad for 98% of the teams in the NBA is a perfect defensive complement to J.O. And then when you consider the $$ we would have had to pay Brad. I don't miss him.

No I don't think Brad could have "made up thoe points"

On a larger point. I have started a few threads this summer asking how the pacers won 61 games this past season. I started athread like that for several reasons one was to try and prove how valuable Jeff Foster is to the pacers team. Is he a journeyman. I don't know, but he was one of the key reasons why the pacers won 61 games. o call him what you want, but he is very valuable.

MSA2CF
08-15-2004, 12:23 PM
You think we're crying over Ron Mercer?

Nope.

What kind of question is "would you rather have had Ron Mercer than Scot Pollard?"

A rather logical one.

And, no, Pig, I'm not joking.

MSA2CF
08-15-2004, 12:25 PM
Brads gone. Thats it, he's gone, who cares about the what ifs.

What if Shaq would have came to the Pacers for Pollard. What if we traded Tinsley for Baron Davis. What if Phil Jackson became head coach. What if....... Its all noise. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Us fighting over the issue isn't going to all of a sudden bring him back, its useless to speak of the "What Ifs." Waste of time, IMO.


:amen:

Sollozzo
08-15-2004, 12:46 PM
MSA, how is "would you rather have had Mercer than Pollard?" a logical question?

That's not the issue. I dont know if you forgot or not, but the trade wasnt Mercer for Pollard. Mercer for Pollard would have been garbage for garbage. Your question isn't logical at all, because Pollard and Mercer weren't swaped 1 for 1.

Again, people are upset about our all star center letting go of. I dont know why you are trying to ask people if they would have rather had Mercer than Pollard, no one cares about Mercer at all. Brad Miller is the player that sparks all of this.

bulletproof
08-15-2004, 01:23 PM
First of all, no one here can speculate what Brad would have brought to the Pistons' series, if he would have even made it that far in the first place. (Ah, see? Two can play at that game.)

Secondly, we got much further with Foster starting than we ever did with Brad. I think it was Kegboy who mentioned the offensive and defensive trade-off.

Also, never underestimate chemistry. I thought last year's team played with much more intensity than it ever did with Brad.

MSA2CF
08-15-2004, 01:23 PM
Brad Miller was going to leave. In an act of kindness, he allowed the Pacers to trade him, and instead of nothing, the Pacers acquired Pollard (who is underrated) and were able to get rid of an annoying player, Ron Mercer. That's a good trade from how I look at it.

Sollozzo
08-15-2004, 01:25 PM
Brad Miller would not have left if the Pacers would have offered him the money Sac was. Brad said that he liked it in Indiana.

MSA2CF
08-15-2004, 01:34 PM
If the Pacers had offered Brad the money Sac was, the Pacers would be in financial limbo for years. Brad is from Indiana so I don't blame him saying he likes it here, but there are other factors that go into deciding whom to play for.

SoupIsGood
08-15-2004, 01:49 PM
There's no reason to worry guys, DH will be just as good a Brad Miller.

;)

MSA2CF
08-15-2004, 02:08 PM
There's no reason to worry guys, DH will be just as good a Brad Miller.

;)

Yes, the Hulk should do quite nicely. ;)

indytoad
08-15-2004, 03:30 PM
Do you guys really think having Brad would've helped against Detroit? The Pistons woulda destroyed Brad.

IndyToad
Be all alone

Hicks
08-15-2004, 03:43 PM
Which big games are those? I recall him coming up big in game 5 vs New Jersey, and name me more than 3 people that DIDNT suck vs Boston? I've looked up Brad's #s for those games, and he was hit and miss, but not chronically bad. And that was a series where if your name wasn't Jermaine, Jamaal, or Ron, you almost automatically were terrible in that series.

bulletproof
08-15-2004, 03:50 PM
Ahh, the dog days of summer, when there's little else to do but dwell in the past.

Hicks
08-15-2004, 03:56 PM
One liners = Content

:laugh:

Sollozzo
08-15-2004, 03:57 PM
I find it so funny that people didnt want to give Brad Miller alot of money, but their isnt much whinng about giving Reggie, Croshere, and Bender more money, and taking on a large contract of Pollard. Pollard isnt worth 2 dollars, we are paying him what, 5 or 6 mil a year?

Brad is the only one of these 5 that is worth the money. I laugh when people say they didnt want to pay Brad the money, but we are currently paying Reggie, Croshere, and Pollard alot and they dont do much at all.

Natston
08-15-2004, 04:01 PM
What makes me so mad is that I can think of 3 players we have that are overpaid, Croshere, Reggie, and Pollard. Brad would be more valuable than all three of them combined. You dont trade an all-star center for a player you barely use.

I'm sorry, Reggie lovers, but Reggie didnt live up to the contract he had last year. I'm ready for Reggie to retire and move on. It upsets me to no end to think that we paid a fairly large amount of money for a couple sentimental years to Reggie and chose not to pay a top center in the game, who is currently a 2 time allstar.

Reggie is far from being overpaid. You PACER bandwagoners don't realize without Reggie Miller the Pacers would not even be on the map. Reggie Miller is the one who brought us so close to the Finals so many times...Reggie Miller is the one who played unselfishly and allowed players like ONeal, Harrington, Artest, etc. tol develop...Reggie Miller being shoots as good as he ever has % wise and him being in the game helps open up the floor for players like J.O. and others because he is such a threat and he must be covered to the extent...and him running around consistently tires out the player who guards him. Reggie allowed himself to take a paycut to stay with the Pacers to stay loyal to his team and win a championship which he will do today. Maybe Croshere is overpaid...but hell no in Reggie.


No one is denying the impact of Reggie on this franchise now and then. However, he is now getting paid more like the Reggie of old rather than an old Reggie.

Hicks
08-15-2004, 04:02 PM
Reggie is far from being overpaid.

Reggie is about 4 million overpaid.


You PACER bandwagoners

That is beyond lame to say that about anyone that posts here.


don't realize without Reggie Miller the Pacers would not even be on the map. Reggie Miller is the one who brought us so close to the Finals so many times...

And that has 0% to do with us discussing how much to pay him at age 38, especially since the contract BEFORE this one was his "reward" contract for past accomplishments. This one just hurts the team.


Reggie Miller is the one who played unselfishly and allowed players like ONeal, Harrington, Artest, etc. tol develop...

And that's worth $6mm a yeare AFTER he does that? Not TO do it, but AFTER he's already done that, and is clearly old and a shell of his glory days?


Reggie Miller being shoots as good as he ever has % wise

True, too bad he hardly ever shoots anymore.


and him being in the game helps open up the floor for players like J.O. and others because he is such a threat and he must be covered to the extent...

He certainly helps there, however he's nothing but a decoy when he keeps passing up shots. I'd rather have someone to actually take open looks and put some points on the board that this team could use, instead of always expecting JO to do it when he's in the post. There needs to be far more balance.


and him running around consistently tires out the player who guards him.

Rip Hamilton sure didn't look tired in the ECF.


Reggie allowed himself to take a paycut to stay with the Pacers to stay loyal to his team and win a championship which he will do today.

$6mm at age 38 for putting up his stats is not a paycut. It's overpaying. No other team would give him more than half of that money.


Maybe Croshere is overpaid...but hell no in Reggie.

Both.

Sollozzo
08-15-2004, 04:14 PM
Hicks basically pointed out everything neccessary in his last post.

Please, there is no need to call me a "knucklehead".

We would not have lost Brad if we would have dished the money to him, he would have stayed. Saying that Reggie is the reason the Pacers are where they are today is a horrible reason to excuse paying him 6 million a year. Like Hicks said, Reggie doesnt shoot anymore, mainly because he is too slow and old to get open near enough, and when he is open, he chooses not to shoot.

Rip Hamilton must have felt like he was shooting in warmups when Reggie was on him last year. Reggie is just an awful defender agaisnt younger, quicker players.

I could care less about loyalty to a player. If Reggie was as loyal as he says he is, he would have taken the smallest contract possible. Don't you all realize that we will never win an NBA championship in the future if we want to keep holding on to the past?

Natston
08-15-2004, 04:19 PM
If Reggie was as loyal as he says he is, he would have taken the smallest contract possible. Don't you all realize that we will never win an NBA championship in the future if we want to keep holding on to the past?

Exactly. Reggie could have signed for the vet's min. and we could have spent the 5 million on Brad or someone else better than Pollard...

Unclebuck
08-15-2004, 04:46 PM
Hicks, so you think a starting shooting guard for a team that wins 61 games and gets to game 6 of the ECF should only make 2 million per year? .


PFA, the dfifference is Pollard's contract has 2 more years on it and Brad's has 6 more years, big difference.

Sollozzo
08-15-2004, 05:07 PM
XX, to say that Reggie needs some money to secure up his future is silly, do you know how rich Reggie Miller is? You're acting like Reggie is poor and needed the money, LOL.

UncleBuck, you are right, Pollard does just have 2 more years. What upsets me is the fact that in 2000, we gave Austin Croshere an extremely large contract, and he was coming off of a season where he was a bench player. Yet we refused to give BRad Miller a large contract after he was coming off of a season in which he was an allstar center.

UncleBuck, I think about 2 million dollars is about all Reggie would get anywhere else in the NBA. Keep in mind, Reggie Miller wouldn't start on most teams, and he shouldn't start here next year with Stephen Jackson. You can make an argument that if he starts, Reggie Miller is the worst starting SG in the NBA. His game has always been about shooting, and now that he has trouble getting open, and tends to pass up open shots, he isnt a big factor at all. And lets not forget he can get burned on defense.

And UB, look at Karl Malone. He was the starting PF on a team that went to the finals, and didnt make much at all. Malone took as little as possible to help the Lakers win, while Reggie took a large contract, which didnt help the Pacers.

I guess I just get so upset because we are overpaying players that dont deserve the money they are making based on their contributions, but didnt dish the money out to an allstar center.

I just want the Pacers to win an NBA championship more than anything. You aren't an elite franchise in this league until you can say that you have an NBA championship. And I know that in his prime, Reggie did all he could to try to land us one, and I will never forget him outplaying Ray Allen, Allen Iverson, Allen Houston and Kobe Bryant in the NBA finals in 2000.

But at the same time, I know that we will never win an NBA championship in the future if we can't let go of the past.

MSA2CF
08-15-2004, 05:18 PM
:lol2:

Hicks
08-15-2004, 05:18 PM
#1 Hicks, it is not unreasonable to say those who bash Reggie here bash the franchise, because Reggie Miller is who made this franchise and where the Pacers are today is because of the leadership Reggie has taken.

Excuse me, but yes it is unreasonable. I'm a Pacers fan above all else. Just because I worship the ground Reggie walks on enough to look the other way at his flaws as an old player doesn't mean I don't love the team. Reggie is the FACE of the franchise, he is NOT the franchise itself. Anyone can criticize Reggie and still love the team. They are not the same thing.


Reggie will have a great year this year to shut all of you up and to eat Crow.

I wish, and I'll hope for it. However if Michael Jordan can't do it like he used to at 39, neither can Reggie Miller. In fact Michael did considerably better at 39 than Reggie has/will. That's not said to knock Reggie, it's about facing reality.


#2 It is very reasonable to point out the impact Reggie Miller has had on this franchise. He has been a leader and a role model to the other players on this team.

Yes he has. But that doesn't change the fact that we're overpaying him for THIS contract, and that he's NOW a shell of his old self. 1995 Reggie Miller isn't walking into Conseco next season, 2005 Reggie Miller is. They are not the same thing. Treat Reggie with the respect he deserves, certainly; but don't pretend he's something he's not in 2004.


The reason the Pacers did not collapse, especially last year among themselves; was Reggie's leadership.

That's a non-statement. We were never in jeopardy of collapsing last year. And if you want to argue Reggie's ability to prevent collapse, then I take it you'll ignore 2002-03 when the team DID collapse, with Reggie playing. He was hurt, but you said it was about his leadership to prevent collapse, not his game.


There were so many young players on the team that wanted more playing time and to shoot the ball more, and they did not complain much and make it a big deal because they say the future Hall of Famer and legend Reggie Miller willing to sacrifice to allow the young players like J.O., Harrington, Bender, Jones, Artest, etc. to all develop. Most NBA players are selfish and would never do this.

If Reggie was passing up shots for all the names you listed, there would be no one left to even think about wanting more shots or more playing time, because you've listed all the candidates.


Reggie still shoots and scores when he has to. Look what he did in Game 1 by making the game winning shot against Detroit.

That was sweet. Where was he in Game 5? Flopping for calls he didn't get, and deferring to JO rather than taking WIDE OPEN 3's when it was crucial to get some shots.


Reggie is still Mr. Clutch and nails the daggers when it counts.

Sometimes, not always. In fact, more often than not he doesn't anymore. If this were 2002 or earlier I'd agree. But it's not.


Reggie is going to be more progressive this year to shut up the critics, but saying Reggie Miller being overpaid is just ridiculus and an insult to the organization of the Indiana Pacers.

First of all, Reggie's improvements this season if any will be marginal at best. Second, calling Reggie Miller overpaid (which he clearly is) is only an insult to the organization because they agreed to give it to him, nothing more.


Once again, no statistic can emphasize the importance of Reggie's presence on the court. Teams fear him and Reggie being on the court changes how the game is played.

He does effect the game, but not enough to pay him $6mm a year.


That along shows his greatness and what he is worth for this team.

I wouldn't call it anything close to greatness. An overpaid SG who doesn't like to shoot anymore is mediocre at best. You're living in the past. Reggie in his day was an awesome player. This is far from his day.


Rip Hamilton may not have been tired in the E.C. Finals but he is an exception. Rip Hamilton is the most conditioned player in the NBA and if you remember the announcers saying, he never gets tired! Don't take just one example and look at what he does for this team throughout the year...esp. by making big shots against Miami. We didn't just play one series this year, and against Detroit he made a game winner in an E.C. Finals game.

I'd like you to give me some examples of when Reggie HAS tired the other SG to a point where it mattered.


Let's also point out the whole team struggled in that series...actually both teams struggled getting the ball in the hoop!

True, but that wasn't particularly different for Reggie as it was the others. Reggie passed up shots all season long.


There were numerous teams willing to sign Reggie for a bigger check.

:laugh: Yeah, name the teams and the price.


Thing is, he could have gone the Payton and Malone way to go to LA to win a title but he did not and that shows what type of person he is..and hopefully he will have a ring after this year.

I agree that I like that he stayed, but the money Payton and Malone made was about what Reggie should be getting paid to stay here. I'm glad he didn't bail, but he got a good chunk of change to stay, and it was a lot more than Payton or Malone.

Hicks
08-15-2004, 05:22 PM
Hicks, so you think a starting shooting guard for a team that wins 61 games and gets to game 6 of the ECF should only make 2 million per year? .

Since when was last year's accomplishments even close to being mainly Reggie's doing? Last year was about JO, Ron, Al, Tinsley, Foster, and the coaching staff as much or in most of their cases MORE than Reggie. You don't pay a player because of how well the team does, you pay a player because of how well HE does.

bulletproof
08-15-2004, 05:52 PM
But at the same time, I know that we will never win an NBA championship in the future if we can't let go of the past.

Then what the hell are you doing wasting your breath talking about Brad? Let go of the past...knucklehead.

Sollozzo
08-15-2004, 05:58 PM
Because, I'm referring to Reggie Miller with that statement. The Pacers by paying Reggie Miller that contract are holding on to the past. Signing Brad Miller would have been a move for the FUTURE.

Sorry, if Reggie starts this year, its a "thank you" start. Anyone with a brain knows that Jackson is the better player. By starting Miller, we will be holding on to the past, and we will never win an NBA championship with that.

You win championships by making moves for the present and future, like signing Brad Miller.

indygeezer
08-15-2004, 06:02 PM
I could care less about loyalty to a player.

I hope you remember those words when your company is thinking about outsourcing your job and cutting you loose. Or when you're scrambling hoping your company holds together long enough so you can retire and draw a pension and benefits. Reggie may not need those things but loyalty from your company is VERY important...I don't care how much money a person makes, everybody wants to feel appreciated and valuable. Perhaps you're too young to realize that now, but believe me, there will come a day when you recognize the truth to those words.

Peck
08-15-2004, 06:14 PM
XX, to say that Reggie needs some money to secure up his future is silly, do you know how rich Reggie Miller is? You're acting like Reggie is poor and needed the money, LOL.

UncleBuck, you are right, Pollard does just have 2 more years. What upsets me is the fact that in 2000, we gave Austin Croshere an extremely large contract, and he was coming off of a season where he was a bench player. Yet we refused to give BRad Miller a large contract after he was coming off of a season in which he was an allstar center.

UncleBuck, I think about 2 million dollars is about all Reggie would get anywhere else in the NBA. Keep in mind, Reggie Miller wouldn't start on most teams, and he shouldn't start here next year with Stephen Jackson. You can make an argument that if he starts, Reggie Miller is the worst starting SG in the NBA. His game has always been about shooting, and now that he has trouble getting open, and tends to pass up open shots, he isnt a big factor at all. And lets not forget he can get burned on defense.

And UB, look at Karl Malone. He was the starting PF on a team that went to the finals, and didnt make much at all. Malone took as little as possible to help the Lakers win, while Reggie took a large contract, which didnt help the Pacers.

I guess I just get so upset because we are overpaying players that dont deserve the money they are making based on their contributions, but didnt dish the money out to an allstar center.

I just want the Pacers to win an NBA championship more than anything. You aren't an elite franchise in this league until you can say that you have an NBA championship. And I know that in his prime, Reggie did all he could to try to land us one, and I will never forget him outplaying Ray Allen, Allen Iverson, Allen Houston and Kobe Bryant in the NBA finals in 2000.

But at the same time, I know that we will never win an NBA championship in the future if we can't let go of the past.

:bowdown::nod:

Preach it brother, preach it.

bulletproof
08-15-2004, 06:18 PM
I could care less about loyalty to a player.

I hope you remember those words when your company is thinking about outsourcing your job and cutting you loose. Or when you're scrambling hoping your company holds together long enough so you can retire and draw a pension and benefits. Reggie may not need those things but loyalty from your company is VERY important...I don't care how much money a person makes, everybody wants to feel appreciated and valuable. Perhaps you're too young to realize that now, but believe me, there will come a day when you recognize the truth to those words.

Well said, geezer. I think it says a lot about the Simons and Donnie that they wanted to make sure Reggie retired a Pacer. It's truly rare to see that kind of loyalty in present-day sports, and every fan should be proud that the team they support has that kind of integrity.

PacerFanAdam, Brad's been gone for over a year now...let go of the past, man.

MSA2CF
08-15-2004, 06:18 PM
If and when the Pacers win the 2005 NBA Finals & Reggie has started 70% + of the Pacers' games, I'll bump this thread.

bulletproof
08-15-2004, 06:24 PM
Let me add one more thing: Reggie's salary didn't impact re-signing Brad. Reggie could have signed for free and it wouldn't have mattered. Donnie simply didn't think Brad was worth what he was commanding.

End of discussion.

Oh, and Peck, Brad was an all-star PF in the West. Not an all-star center.

SoupIsGood
08-15-2004, 06:30 PM
Let me add one more thing: Reggie's salary didn't impact re-signing Brad. Reggie could have signed for free and it wouldn't have mattered. Donnie simply didn't think Brad was worth what he was commanding.

End of discussion.

Oh, and Peck, Brad was an all-star PF in the West. Not an all-star center.

I hate that "End of discussion" thing. People always say that, but it rarely ever is the end of discussion. usually it spurs more. People should start saying "Begin the discussion" instead. Or maybe not. :p

Unclebuck
08-15-2004, 06:35 PM
DW was burned by the Croshere contract, so he learned and decided not to give someone he did not believe in (Brad Miller) a long term lucrative contract. How is that a bad thing, learning from your mistakes. I have never understood the logic that has been spewed forth for about 13 months now. "Well DW gave Cro a bad cotnract, so why can't he give Brad a bad contract" Two wrongs don't make a right.


BP summed this whole thing up by stating that DW simply did not belive Brad was worth that much money. I believe that is why Brad Miller was not re-signed.

We really won't know if DW was correct or not for another 3 years.

but after one year I think he was correct.

Hicks
08-15-2004, 06:38 PM
Even if Reggie's salary didn't come in to play deciding whether to keep Brad, that doesn't change the fact that we could be using the money on someone better.

I like loyalty, but I don't like it when it compromises the team's present or future. You can't spin it any way shape or form to make it look like Reggie's making the right amount of money. He is flat out overpaid.

Also, if Brad "simply wasn't worth the money" to Walsh, then I'm calling him out as wrong. This summer especially gives everyone an idea of the going rate for players, and at the rate players are currently being paid, Brad is getting paid exactly the right amount of money. Last year was a screw up. Maybe it sounded good to some at the time (or even now), but it was a mistake.

If we win a title, it will be in SPITE of that decision, not because of it.

Aw Heck
08-15-2004, 06:40 PM
Oh, and Peck, Brad was an all-star PF in the West. Not an all-star center.

This is true. Brad just took Webber's spot in the offense. Because, like Webber, he is a good passer and hit a mid-range jumper, he fit in perfectly.

I wish Brad was here, but he isn't. And that's in the past, which I don't want to dwell on. I don't want him here anyway, not on that contract at least. Brad's contract, in conjunction with the other long-term deals, would financially strap The Pacers for years, just like the Kings are now.

The contracts of Webber, Brad, and Bibby hurt them now. Assuming Peja isn't traded and he doesn't go anywhere else as a FA, in two years he will get big money from Sac. After that, they are screwed. If he does leave and the Kings get nothing, they have no room to sign anyone of equal value.

So short-term, the Kings get the better end of that trade. Long term, I'm not so sure. We'll see in a few years.

Sollozzo
08-15-2004, 06:44 PM
Geezer, I wouldn't expect a company to pay me money for good things I had done in the past, while I wasnt performing good in the present

If Reggie was as loyal as he says, he would have taken a very small contract. The vets minimum would have been more than enough from Donnie and the Simons, keep in mind, this is a two way street. While Reggie has done great things for this team and city, look how rich the Pacers have made him.

Bulletproof, while Reggie's salary didn't directly impact Brad, its still a waste of money. Lets not look at the past. Lets look at how Reggie is playing in the present, he simply isn't worth the money any way you slice it.

You're right Bulletproof, Donnie didn't think Brad was worth the money. I think that's what makes most of so furious. Donnie seems to think that Austin Croshere, a player that came off of the bench is worth a large long term contract, yet he doesnt think Brad Miller, an allstar center is? Donnie gives Bender an extension, when he hasnt done much of anything. Donnie takes on Pollards contract, Pollard is garbage, we should have just let Brad go before we took on Pollard. And of course, Reggie, Reggie isnt worth his contract. All of these players are being overpaid by the Pacers, yet they didnt think Brad Miller was worth the money.

Bulletproof, it's hard to just let go of it. The Pacers made the worst trade in their franchise history, and one of the worst in the NBA during the last 20 or so years. It's hard to get over losing an allstar center, and picking up a worthless player in his place.

Hicks
08-15-2004, 06:54 PM
You may be the admin, but the way you are absolutely ant-Reggie Miller and hate the guy is disgusting. You are a disgrace to call yourself a Pacer fan by thge way you act. GOD geT OVER It.

Grow up little boy. I'm not anti Reggie, and I certainly don't hate him. In fact I love the guy. But I'm not blind to what he is NOW and what he's getting paid now. It's too much for too little production.


Reggie is the reason why the PACERS are even on the map.

But he's not the reason this team is good, or a contender.


People who do not appreciate Reggie and all you do is complain and say how bad Reggie is is a mockery of all Pacer fans.

The only mockery of Pacer fans is yourself. I do appreciate what Reggie has done for this franchise. But that does not mean I have to pretend he's something he's not as an old man of the game.


Even if you think Reggie is overpaid...get over it.

:rolleyes: :fly: No I won't "get over it". It's a f**-up that's holding my team down.


He is our heart and soul and let's move on to the future...but you people are stuck in the past and yor hatred for Reggie is an absolutely shame.

:lol2: I'm stuck in the past? :lol:

Quit pretending Reggie's our star player and step into the 21st century. The absolute shame is you discovered this board.

bulletproof
08-15-2004, 07:10 PM
You're right Bulletproof, Donnie didn't think Brad was worth the money. I think that's what makes most of so furious. Donnie seems to think that Austin Croshere, a player that came off of the bench is worth a large long term contract, yet he doesnt think Brad Miller, an allstar center is? Donnie gives Bender an extension, when he hasnt done much of anything. Donnie takes on Pollards contract, Pollard is garbage, we should have just let Brad go before we took on Pollard. And of course, Reggie, Reggie isnt worth his contract. All of these players are being overpaid by the Pacers, yet they didnt think Brad Miller was worth the money.

Bulletproof, it's hard to just let go of it. The Pacers made the worst trade in their franchise history, and one of the worst in the NBA during the last 20 or so years. It's hard to get over losing an allstar center, and picking up a worthless player in his place.

1.) Cro's contract has nothing to do with Brad's contract. As UB pointed out, Donnie wasn't going to allow an agent to put him over a barrel again.

2.) I'll take Donnie's wisdom over yours anyday. After we lost Brad, I read post after post after post on here that the Pacers would be lucky to win more than 40 games this past season, much less make the playoffs. We won 61 games and made it to the ECFs without Brad, so let it go. Getting Rick was much more important to this team than losing Brad. And had we re-signed Brad, make no mistake, we would have been stuck with Isiah last year.

3.) Worst trade according to who? You and Peck? Pshaw. It wasn't a trade. The Pacers were going to lose Brad anyway, and Donnie and Larry thought getting Pollard would help soften the loss of Brad. Seemed like the right decision at the time. But it wasn't a trade in the traditional sense of the word.

4.) You make your judgements in hindsight, whereas GMs operate in real time. I have little doubt that after the 2000 finals you, as well as Peck, would have screamed bloody murder had Donnie let Cro walk as well.

5.) Let it go. Why in the hell are we still debating this? Abso-****ing-lutely ridiculous to still be talking about this. Someone wisely said earlier in this thread that we should let go of the past. Wait. That was you. Guess you don't live by your own words.

Sollozzo
08-15-2004, 07:13 PM
UncleBuck, you're acting like Brad Miller and Austin Croshere are the same situations. Austin was a bench player when he signed the contract, and has flatout done nothing since then. Miller was an allstar center for us who deserved the money, and so far he has proven he deserved the money. Walsh blew it both times.

He chose to overpay the bench player in 2000......and not pay the allstar in 2003.

Walsh didn't learn from any mistake, he just made another one.

Aw Heck
08-15-2004, 07:13 PM
You're right Bulletproof, Donnie didn't think Brad was worth the money. I think that's what makes most of so furious. Donnie seems to think that Austin Croshere, a player that came off of the bench is worth a large long term contract, yet he doesnt think Brad Miller, an allstar center is? Donnie gives Bender an extension, when he hasnt done much of anything. Donnie takes on Pollards contract, Pollard is garbage, we should have just let Brad go before we took on Pollard. And of course, Reggie, Reggie isnt worth his contract. All of these players are being overpaid by the Pacers, yet they didnt think Brad Miller was worth the money.

Adam, hindsight is 20/20. When Donnie gave Croshere that contract, he was giving him market value. If the Pacers didn't give Croshere that money, he would have gotten it somewhere else. If you don't think Donnie should have given Croshere market value after a season that made him look like a future important contributor to the team, why would you expect him to give Brad market value after one All-star season?

Pollard is horrible. No one disputes that. But he at least looked decent in Sacramento. NO ONE expected him to be THIS bad. And his contract expires in 2 years. If we can't trade his expiring contract for a decent player in a year, we can at least be assured that he will be gone after that season.

When Donnie gave Bender that extension, Bender was still very young and hadn't received much playing time. Donnie still believed (and still does) he could break out.

I believe Reggie's contract was due to loyalty. Of course the fans don't like it, but it's Donnie's way of saying "thank you." I'm sure Reggie would have taken less if he was asked to. But think of it this way:

Your girlfriend has a birthday. She tells you not to get her anything expensive. Do you listen to her? If you do, how do you think she really feels?

Sollozzo
08-15-2004, 07:17 PM
Bulletproof, you're right I did say we need to let go of the past, refering to how the Pacers run their basketball team. Keeping Reggie Miller is holding on to the past. Brad Miller would have been a move for the FUTURE.

Who would be whinning about letting Croshere. It wouldn't have taken much time for anyone to see that Croshere wasnt much at all, I think we would have all been happy if Croshere would have been let go of.

We were only going to lose Brad because we weren't going to throw the money he deserved at him. Brad would have most likely stayed here if we had thrown the money at him.

Please, name a trade this organization has done that is worse than that. You trade your allstar center in 2002-2003 for a player you rarely lose in 2003-2004. That's just horrible.

Hicks
08-15-2004, 07:22 PM
UncleBuck, you're acting like Brad Miller and Austin Croshere are the same situations. Austin was a bench player when he signed the contract, and has flatout done nothing since then. Miller was an allstar center for us who deserved the money, and so far he has proven he deserved the money. Walsh blew it both times.

He chose to overpay the bench player in 2000......and not pay the allstar in 2003.

Walsh didn't learn from any mistake, he just made another one.


*ding ding ding*

Hicks
08-15-2004, 07:23 PM
The point has also (correctly) been made that Walsh threw a good sized contract at Bender who'd proven NOTHING (and in fact still really hasn't, despite my optimism of him). He's willing to pay a nobody that kind of cash, or a bench player what Cro got, but give him an all-star at a premium position that's hard to fill (Center), and boy, we can't pay that. :unimpressed:

bulletproof
08-15-2004, 07:24 PM
Even if Reggie's salary didn't come in to play deciding whether to keep Brad, that doesn't change the fact that we could be using the money on someone better.

That's pure speculation.



I like loyalty, but I don't like it when it compromises the team's present or future. You can't spin it any way shape or form to make it look like Reggie's making the right amount of money. He is flat out overpaid.

And signing soft Brad to a 7-year/$67 million contract isn't a risky proposition?



Also, if Brad "simply wasn't worth the money" to Walsh, then I'm calling him out as wrong. This summer especially gives everyone an idea of the going rate for players, and at the rate players are currently being paid, Brad is getting paid exactly the right amount of money. Last year was a screw up. Maybe it sounded good to some at the time (or even now), but it was a mistake.

I take it you have a handle on the team's finances? And I guess getting Rick was a major screw-up as well then.

Hicks
08-15-2004, 07:31 PM
Even if Reggie's salary didn't come in to play deciding whether to keep Brad, that doesn't change the fact that we could be using the money on someone better.

That's pure speculation.

More like reality. If you take away about 4mm you're overpaying an old shell, gee, suddenly you have 4mm you might just use for someone more helpful to the team. There's nothing speculative about it. You either have the 4mm to either not spend to lower salary cap, or use on someone who's more deserving of it for the coming year. Yet we piled it on Reggie's contract. A f***ing 39 year old SG.




I like loyalty, but I don't like it when it compromises the team's present or future. You can't spin it any way shape or form to make it look like Reggie's making the right amount of money. He is flat out overpaid.

And signing soft Brad to a 7-year/$67 million contract isn't a risky proposition?

It's a lot of money; however it's for an all-star at a premium position in the NBA. It fits. We're not talking about a bench player (Croshere) or a might-be-good-someday (Bender). We're talking a true Center that was actually GOOD (a rarity in today's NBA) that complimented our superstar perfectly. You pay the man that much. You don't win rings by not paying a reasonable amount for your only other all-star (at the time) on the team. If Brad was a 7th man I might agree. But he was one of our best starters. And he's young.




Also, if Brad "simply wasn't worth the money" to Walsh, then I'm calling him out as wrong. This summer especially gives everyone an idea of the going rate for players, and at the rate players are currently being paid, Brad is getting paid exactly the right amount of money. Last year was a screw up. Maybe it sounded good to some at the time (or even now), but it was a mistake.

I take it you have a handle on the team's finances? And I guess getting Rick was a major screw-up as well then.

I take it money is more improtant to you than this team? I'm a fan of the Indiana Pacers basketball team, not the Pacers business. Saying "well it saved money!" is the weakest possible argument you can make unless that money went right back into making a better basketball team, which it did not. If it didn't help the team, I don't give a ****** about the money.

Hicks
08-15-2004, 07:32 PM
The difference between Brad and Austin:

Brad, all-star. Cro, 7th man.
Brad, continued to be an all-star. Cro, flopped.

Hmm, I wonder why some of us actually see the major difference in those circumstances?

Hicks
08-15-2004, 07:35 PM
As for the "Keeping Brad = No Carlisle" That may be how it played out, but that doesn't mean that's the only way it could have gone down. The difference in money could have been a wash just by not signing Kenny Anderson.

Aw Heck
08-15-2004, 07:38 PM
The difference between Brad and Austin:

Brad, all-star. Cro, 7th man.
Brad, continued to be an all-star. Cro, flopped.

Hmm, I wonder why some of us actually see the major difference in those circumstances?


What I can't believe is that Donnie signed Cro to that contract anyway, seeing as how Donnie's a psychic and all.

:rolleyes:

Yes, Cro was a 7th man. But he looked like he was going to be good for several years to come. No one could have predicted what happened after he signed that contract. I'll quote my earlier post, which seems to have been overlooked:

------------
When Donnie gave Croshere that contract, he was giving him market value. If the Pacers didn't give Croshere that money, he would have gotten it somewhere else. If you don't think Donnie should have given Croshere market value after a season that made him look like a future important contributor to the team, why would you expect him to give Brad market value after one All-star season?

When Donnie gave Bender that extension, Bender was still very young and hadn't received much playing time. Donnie still believed (and still does) he could break out.

I believe Reggie's contract was due to loyalty. Of course the fans don't like it, but it's Donnie's way of saying "thank you." I'm sure Reggie would have taken less if he was asked to. But think of it this way:

Your girlfriend has a birthday. She tells you not to get her anything expensive. Do you listen to her? If you do, how do you think she really feels?
--------

bulletproof
08-15-2004, 07:38 PM
UncleBuck, you're acting like Brad Miller and Austin Croshere are the same situations. Austin was a bench player when he signed the contract, and has flatout done nothing since then. Miller was an allstar center for us who deserved the money, and so far he has proven he deserved the money. Walsh blew it both times.

He chose to overpay the bench player in 2000......and not pay the allstar in 2003.

Walsh didn't learn from any mistake, he just made another one.


*ding ding ding*

Let me say this again slowly so you can understand: Had...we...signed...Brad...we...wouldn't...have... been...able...to...fire...Isiah...and...hire...Ric k.

So let's approach this from another angle.

Would you rather have Brad or Rick? And don't say we could have afforded both because we couldn't. Again, Brad or Rick?

Yeah, but...Cro...Reggie...Bender...

No...it's a simple question, Hicks, Brad or Rick?

Hicks
08-15-2004, 07:42 PM
Too bad, I'm gonna say we could afford both anyway. Just don't sign Kenny Anderson to 1.5mm or God forbid they bite the bullet a little bit for one season to have an all-star center (which is very f**king hard to come buy) AND a quality coach over a weak one. That's just WRONG :rolleyes: :unimpressed:

Hicks
08-15-2004, 07:44 PM
The difference between Brad and Austin:

Brad, all-star. Cro, 7th man.
Brad, continued to be an all-star. Cro, flopped.

Hmm, I wonder why some of us actually see the major difference in those circumstances?


What I can't believe is that Donnie signed Cro to that contract anyway, seeing as how Donnie's a psychic and all.

:rolleyes:

Yes, Cro was a 7th man. But he looked like he was going to be good for several years to come. No one could have predicted what happened after he signed that contract.

Well, if you say that's why we kept Cro, than you should have no argument that it was a mistake to ditch Brad. Brad was even MORE proven than Croshere. And played a more improtant role.

Aw Heck
08-15-2004, 08:01 PM
The difference between Brad and Austin:

Brad, all-star. Cro, 7th man.
Brad, continued to be an all-star. Cro, flopped.

Hmm, I wonder why some of us actually see the major difference in those circumstances?


What I can't believe is that Donnie signed Cro to that contract anyway, seeing as how Donnie's a psychic and all.

:rolleyes:

Yes, Cro was a 7th man. But he looked like he was going to be good for several years to come. No one could have predicted what happened after he signed that contract.

Well, if you say that's why we kept Cro, than you should have no argument that it was a mistake to ditch Brad. Brad was even MORE proven than Croshere. And played a more improtant role.


The Pacers were in a different financial situation in 2000. Donnie believed that Croshere had the potential to not only be worth the money, but to be worth it for the majority of the contract. Who didn't when Cro signed that?

The financial situation last summer was much more restricting. When Brad's market value soared past everyone's expectations, Donnie didn't think it was wise to to spend that much money on Brad for that long.

It was a mistake to sign Croshere and Bender to those contracts. I'll admit that. But they exist, unfortunately. And to sign Brad to that contract through years where the contracts of J.O., Cro, Bender, Foster, Artest, and Harrington existed would've been stupid. Good luck signing any free agents, including our own. When Harrington and Tinsley's deals would've ended, we would be asking "which one do we want to lose for nothing?"

bulletproof
08-15-2004, 08:03 PM
More like reality. If you take away about 4mm you're overpaying an old shell, gee, suddenly you have 4mm you might just use for someone more helpful to the team. There's nothing speculative about it. You either have the 4mm to either not spend to lower salary cap, or use on someone who's more deserving of it for the coming year. Yet we piled it on Reggie's contract. A f***ing 39 year old SG.

Maybe they would have decided to save that money instead of spend it, which would certainly be understandable given the fact that the Pacers have the 5th highest payroll in the league. Fact is, you don't know what they would do with that money, but from what I gather, you wouldn't trust them to do the right thing with it anyway.

As for Reggie, had he made that layup and we won game 2 and went on to win the ECFs, you'd be saying he was worth every penny he's getting paid, and don't be intellectually dishonest and say you wouldn't.



I take it money is more improtant to you than this team? I'm a fan of the Indiana Pacers basketball team, not the Pacers business. Saying "well it saved money!" is the weakest possible argument you can make unless that money went right back into making a better basketball team, which it did not. If it didn't help the team, I don't give a ****** about the money.

Okay, so let me get this straight: You don't give a crap about the money or the business of running an organization, but you're more than willing to use monetary figures to try and rationalize your arguments, which has everything to do with business...uh-huh... :rolleyes:

bulletproof
08-15-2004, 08:05 PM
The Pacers were in a different financial situation in 2000. Donnie believed that Croshere had the potential to not only be worth the money, but to be worth it for the majority of the contract. Who didn't when Cro signed that?

The financial situation last summer was much more restricting. When Brad's market value soared past everyone's expectations, Donnie didn't think it was wise to to spend that much money on Brad for that long.

It was a mistake to sign Croshere and Bender to those contracts. I'll admit that. But they exist, unfortunately. And to sign Brad to that contract through years where the contracts of J.O., Cro, Bender, Foster, Artest, and Harrington existed would've been stupid. Good luck signing any free agents, including our own. When Harrington and Tinsley's deals would've ended, we would be asking "which one do we want to lose for nothing?"

You need to post more often, Heck.

MSA2CF
08-15-2004, 08:09 PM
It's Sunday, August 15, 2004.

Hicks
08-15-2004, 08:13 PM
As for Reggie, had he made that layup and we won game 2 and went on to win the ECFs, you'd be saying he was worth every penny he's getting paid, and don't be intellectually dishonest and say you wouldn't.

It would be intellectually dishonest if I said I would.

Croshere could have stayed hot for games 5 and 6 and we might have won the series, but that still wouldn't mean he was worth what he's paid either.




Okay, so let me get this straight: You don't give a crap about the money or the business of running an organization, but you're more than willing to use monetary figures to try and rationalize your arguments, which has everything to do with business...uh-huh... :rolleyes:

I'm saying that I don't care if the business made a coup if I think it's at the expense of the team.

Hicks
08-15-2004, 08:15 PM
You need to post more often, Heck.

Just like those of us who don't agree with you should post less no doubt.

Peck
08-15-2004, 08:19 PM
The most ironic part of all of this. The people who keep telling us to get over it, yet still get on here & argue about it.;)

Here is my take on this.

Donnie saw something in Brad he didn't like. Whether it was his work ethic, his inclination to being injured, his personnal hygene or whatever.

To me it had to be something like that, because from a pure basketball standpoint I don't see how a single person who is either not blinded by loyalty to the Pacers or Walsh could stand with a straight face & say that Jeff Foster is even close to Brad Miller.

I've read people who have done everything in the world to justify this trade. I've read that it was to give Al more time, I've read it was so that we could fire Thomas & hire Rick, I've read that it was because J.O. wanted him gone, etc., etc.

While all of that may have some portion of truth in it, none of it passes the smell test with me.

I think at the end of the day Walsh just simply saw something he didn't like.

Now some of us think he made a mistake. Guess what? That is our right.

Some think he made the right decision. Guess what? That's your right.

Others would not think that Walsh could make a mistake if he traded Jordan in his prime for Brooke Steppe. Guess what? That's your right to.

I'm willing to give Walsh the benefit of the doubt on the character issue. However from a basketball standpoint I just think it was a horrid horrid move.

BTW, I want to make sure you guys beleive I'm being consistant here. I've said this stuff since the first day I heard we were possibly not signing Brad.

I made it a point to say over & over that if in the next seven years we were looking for a starting center then this was a huge collosal flop. Guess what? We're looking for a starting center, no matter how much U.B. hates it. If something for Dampier can be swung money wise, it might just happen. But if we were satisfied with Foster, Dampier would be a moot point. We wouldn't even be talking about him.

Bash away at me, but at least you can't say I'm being inconsistant here.

Hicks
08-15-2004, 08:39 PM
Great post, Peck. I pretty much agree with what you're saying. The other side may not make this a stopping point, but I am. I've said my piece, and you've filled in what I feel were the gaps. We all know what each other thinks at this point, so I think this has run it's course. At least until September ;)

SoupIsGood
08-15-2004, 09:48 PM
we have a center guys...

David harrison! Aww Yeah!

He will be better than Brad Miller and Peanut Butter put together.

Hicks
08-15-2004, 10:05 PM
Harrison = l33t

SoupIsGood
08-15-2004, 10:18 PM
I'm really trying here, but I don't get it. What the hell is l33t?

Haha, Xsass insults Hicks, saying he is probably a 19 year old, and then says he is a 20 year old. WOW. One year difference. And XSass, It is possible to be a fan of Miller, and not a fan of his contract. And just because Miller is the face of the franchise and whatnot, that doesn't mean we can't criticize him. No one's perfect.

Hicks
08-15-2004, 10:25 PM
l33t equalts, in some circles, "elite" in hacker or (h4x0r) speach. It's annoying/lame, but had a short burst of popularity a couple years ago. Fun to pull it out for sarcastic comments every now and again.

Regrading ages: Sas and I are both 20, and I believe born in the same month (May). But I feel like he's about 5+ years younger than me. At least you'd think so to read his posts.

MagicRat
08-15-2004, 10:36 PM
This might help you, Hicks.

My Heart Will Go On

Psst, MagicRat, I bet you could have a field day with this. ;)

I have no idea what you're talking about......:p

http://home.comcast.net/~magic_rat/myheart.jpg

Hicks
08-15-2004, 10:38 PM
:rotflmao: :lol: :lol2: :laugh:

BRILLIANT!

:D

Hicks
08-15-2004, 10:44 PM
Straight to my avatar it goes! :D

MSA2CF
08-15-2004, 10:45 PM
This might help you, Hicks.

My Heart Will Go On

Psst, MagicRat, I bet you could have a field day with this. ;)

I have no idea what you're talking about......:p

http://home.comcast.net/~magic_rat/myheart.jpg




I set 'em up, you knock 'em down! Very good job my friend! :laugh:

edit: On a related note:
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/titanicpimp.wmv

indygeezer
08-15-2004, 11:13 PM
A few weeks ago I thought there was NO WAY we'd be after Damp. I figured he'd get every $$$ in America thrown at him. Gee, maybe there was a lesson learned from KAndiman last year. But also, I figured with his gimpy knee we'd stay way far away. Now, the longer this goes on, the better our chances would seem to be.

Unclebuck
08-15-2004, 11:58 PM
UncleBuck, you're acting like Brad Miller and Austin Croshere are the same situations. Austin was a bench player when he signed the contract, and has flatout done nothing since then. Miller was an allstar center for us who deserved the money, and so far he has proven he deserved the money. Walsh blew it both times.

He chose to overpay the bench player in 2000......and not pay the allstar in 2003.

Walsh didn't learn from any mistake, he just made another one.


Croshere was expected to start the next season and in fact he did start for the first 20 games or so as the small forward.

I hope Walsh keeps making mistakes each and every season just as long as the team wins 61 games.


And as far as this "trade" being the worst in franchise history, you must have blocked out about 4 trades of the late 70's and early 80's




Peck, yes you have been very consistant on this issue, no doubt about that.
I have said many times that I am not that interested in Dampier, but if they can get him without giving up Bender and can get Dampier with a 3 or fewer years on his contract, then I say bring him aboard. But I would not promise him a starting spot. In fact if Dampier is acquired, I predict that Foster and He will split time at center and I would not be surprised at all if Jeff averaged more time than Damp, against every team in the NBA except the Heat.

ChicagoJ
08-16-2004, 12:24 AM
Although this topic is boring the hell out of me...

Croshere was offered similar contracts by Houston and Chicago. He was paid market value in 2000. After Isiah destroyed his confidence, he now appears overpaid.

Aw Heck, you were 100% right about that history. The lesson DW learned, as BP said, was not to get railroaded by an agent ever again.

Getting Pollard in return was *worse* than just losing Brad for nothing, but outside a few of us pessimists, nobody really saw that coming.

Its too bad the ignore function doesn't ingore posts when Hicks quotes our little loud-mouthed Reggie-loving troll. :rolleyes:

MagicRat
08-16-2004, 12:49 AM
http://home.comcast.net/~magic_rat/horrible.mp3

Natston
08-16-2004, 03:51 AM
Why would you chose that as your avatar Magic Rat? :confused:

ABADays
08-16-2004, 07:41 AM
I've been over Brad being gone for some time now. We don't have him so I don't think about him.

indygeezer
08-16-2004, 07:58 AM
I've been over Brad being gone for some time now. We don't have him so I don't think about him.

Amen to what ABA and Jay have said!!!

MagicRat
08-16-2004, 09:05 AM
Why would you chose that as your avatar Magic Rat? :confused:

It reminds me of one of my favorite Pacers' players, #44, Austin Crother (I pronounce it with a long o)......:dunce: :nerd: :blush:

Hicks
08-16-2004, 09:39 AM
The .mp3 magicrat posted was Peck, btw. :D

Kegboy
08-16-2004, 10:19 AM
http://home.comcast.net/~magic_rat/horrible.mp3


Ah ha, so the rumors are true. Now I finally understand why UB kept his mouth shut all night.

MagicRat
08-16-2004, 10:31 AM
The .mp3 magicrat posted was Peck, btw. :D


:confused:

If Peck was included in that audio (I can neither confirm nor deny this), I could sort of guess which one he is. He is consistent. The question is who was it who said they've moved on?

:confused:

Hicks
08-16-2004, 10:38 AM
Sure sounds like Peck to me...

Hicks
08-16-2004, 10:40 AM
Ah OK, the BEGINNING is me, but "HORRIBLE. HORRIBLE." is Peck, which is what I focused on because it cracked me up.

Hicks
08-16-2004, 10:42 AM
I said I moved on that night, didn't I? Yeah, well, I relapsed the other day lol.

In all seriousness I did move on from the perspective of, it's over, the team's fine, etc. This week has been me in a sour mood wishing we had Brad so I wouldn't fret so much about wondering if we have what it takes to win the title or not. I'd sure rather have Brad than not right now.

So yes, I've been over it happening for about 9 or so months, but it was such a bad trade I'm gonna have random stretches where I still gripe about it.

Hicks
08-16-2004, 10:43 AM
Also, MagicRat, how much did you record that evening, and when are you going to share with the class? :cool:

Natston
08-17-2004, 02:48 AM
Why would you chose that as your avatar Magic Rat? :confused:

It reminds me of one of my favorite Pacers' players, #44, Austin Crother (I pronounce it with a long o)......:dunce: :nerd: :blush:








Ok... Seeing that sign in your avatar brings back flashbacks of me passing it this morning... :laugh:

Natston
08-17-2004, 02:55 AM
Also, MagicRat, how much did you record that evening, and when are you going to share with the class? :cool:

He's got dirt on all of us now, he's going to blackmail us to no end now... :cry:

Bball
08-17-2004, 11:29 AM
The financial situation last summer was much more restricting. When Brad's market value soared past everyone's expectations, Donnie didn't think it was wise to to spend that much money on Brad for that long.






But in the case of BradM, from what we were told via the media, the Pacers didn't even make an offer. Nada. So it was never explored whether Brad would've accepted a shorter deal, or a smaller contract. We can ASSUME he wouldn't have. We can hear the argument that he would've been insulted but then the counter to that is, is not even trying to negotiate something not an insult?

And we have Walsh's famous Fall quote saying he was going to sign all 3 of his FA's.

IMHO, something happened unexpected more than just Brad's price going up. Whether Walsh found out Reggie wouldn't accept the minimum as planned even after his previous contract had been a 'Thank You' contract... whether hiring Bird and firing Thomas became an issue....whether Brad's agent pissed off Walsh.... or whether BradM did something behind the scenes that worried Walsh (drinking?), I don't know.

What I do know is Pollard was not even a servicable replacement.

I also know I never argued the loss of Brad would cost the Pacers regular season games per se'... I did argue the loss of BradM had the potential to lose games that matter (such as playoffs) and rip away a potential Pacer Dream Team (a team that others could only dream of fielding).

So as the dust as settled on this I guess I am hoping Walsh based this decision on more than just feeling BradM wasn't worth the money. If that was the case, he clearly missed the boat and will cost the franchise MORE while we try to find a similar skillset or patch around it.

And I should add, if the answer is: We couldn't afford Brad then Walsh certainly gets some blame for mishandling team finances because he had options before painting himself into a corner.

EDIT: But we won 61 games and made the ECF's. Unfortunately, everyone is not sitting still and Detroit shows no signs of falling back and BradM fits the bill to something we lack in trying to scale the mountain.

-Bball

bulletproof
08-17-2004, 12:18 PM
The financial situation last summer was much more restricting. When Brad's market value soared past everyone's expectations, Donnie didn't think it was wise to to spend that much money on Brad for that long.






But in the case of BradM, from what we were told via the media, the Pacers didn't even make an offer. Nada. So it was never explored whether Brad would've accepted a shorter deal, or a smaller contract. We can ASSUME he wouldn't have. We can hear the argument that he would've been insulted but then the counter to that is, is not even trying to negotiate something not an insult?

And we have Walsh's famous Fall quote saying he was going to sign all 3 of his FA's.

IMHO, something happened unexpected more than just Brad's price going up. Whether Walsh found out Reggie wouldn't accept the minimum as planned even after his previous contract had been a 'Thank You' contract... whether hiring Bird and firing Thomas became an issue....whether Brad's agent pissed off Walsh.... or whether BradM did something behind the scenes that worried Walsh (drinking?), I don't know.

What I do know is Pollard was not even a servicable replacement.

I also know I never argued the loss of Brad would cost the Pacers regular season games per se'... I did argue the loss of BradM had the potential to lose games that matter (such as playoffs) and rip away a potential Pacer Dream Team (a team that others could only dream of fielding).

So as the dust as settled on this I guess I am hoping Walsh based this decision on more than just feeling BradM wasn't worth the money. If that was the case, he clearly missed the boat and will cost the franchise MORE while we try to find a similar skillset or patch around it.

And I should add, if the answer is: We couldn't afford Brad then Walsh certainly gets some blame for mishandling team finances because he had options before painting himself into a corner.

EDIT: But we won 61 games and made the ECF's. Unfortunately, everyone is not sitting still and Detroit shows no signs of falling back and BradM fits the bill to something we lack in trying to scale the mountain.

-Bball




So much wind. So little substance.

My guess is that only a championship would shut you people up. And even if we win one this year, you'll counter that we should have won one last year. It never ends.

The entire dynamic of this team changed with the departure of Brad. And for the better, if you ask me. Foster plays with 10 times the intensity Brad does. And I'll take his guts and hustle down the stretch to Brad's flagging intensity anyday.

One more thing: the addition of Brad didn't put the Kings over the top. This team soared to new heights without him. If not for a goofy move by the Celtics and Hawks the Pacers would have been right back in the finals and you and Hicks wouldn't be making such BS posts and still talking about something that is so damn old and tired.

Bball
08-17-2004, 12:35 PM
. If not for a goofy move by the Celtics and Hawks the Pacers would have been right back in the finals and you and Hicks wouldn't be making such BS posts and still talking about something that is so damn old and tired.

A couple of points...
It is August and nothing is going on and we aren't celebrating a championship so it is 'woulda coulda shoulda' time for some of us.

You are correct that if the Hawks and Celtics hadn't been so accomodating it is probably the Pacers playing for the championship. Then again, that's what GM's do. They make moves to try and improve either their immediate lot (Detroit) or their future (teams that have no legitimate title shot any time soon). The Pacers found themselves on the short end of the stick here.

We had the skillset we needed, and still need, to counter our biggest challengers. Especially in Carlisle's system. For someone who likes to argue about the difference Carlisle's system makes I don't know why you discount what that system would be like with Brad Miller in it? For some reason (money?) he was deemed expendable. I find it hard to believe it was only about the money because Walsh has always been able to find the money when he wanted.

I can believe there was a misjudgement of Scott Pollard at play here and an undervaluing of BMiller. I'd be willing to bet the Pollard option was known and available LONG before we heard about it... and probably long before BMIller heard of it.

..or not...

-Bball

SkipperZ
08-17-2004, 12:56 PM
You guys don't seem to be watching the same Brad Miller that I am. I am seeing a genuinly big body with a great midrange jumpshot and great passing skills for a man of his height and girth. Decent low post defender with above average rebounding skills.

I am also seeing a slow flatfooted defender, who's work ethic is mediocre at best on and off the court, and who breaks down at the end of the season. I know CWebb came back and cut into his minutes and touches, but I'm not basing my observations on stats. If you watched him in the playoffs versus how he was in the beginning of the year (when he played pretty much brilliantly) he was half the player playing at half the speed.

Could we have used him? Possibly. I think Jermaine's FG percentage was down last year partially because of the lack of a player like Brad Miller. But Jeff brought things to the table that Brad Miller never could. And I seriously doubt Brad Miller was the missing link against the Pistons. Quite honestly, a blocked layup, poor defense on Rip HAmilton and a bunch of mental lapses (not just Ron but as a Team) at the end of the last game plus two major injuries was what lost us that series. Brad Miller could not counter all of those things. The Pacers screwed that series up royally, and next year with more experience, better condition and offseason rest for Jermaine, plus a guy that (maybe) can keep up with Rip in SJax, plus addition by subtraction in losing Harrington, this team could very well go all the way next year.

All teh way without Brad Miller and the tens of millions of dollars of capspace he is going to be wasting away for the kings when he's in the mid 30's and way past his prime.

Theres no doubt he's a good player, and sure any team could use him, but he's not worth the cash he's making and I would bet that in the center starved league that the NBA is, at his salary only a handful of teams would take him.

Also, to think that the Pacers made no offer to him is ridiculous. They may have low balled him, but of course his agent will come out and say something like that to save face and protect Brad.

Bball
08-17-2004, 01:10 PM
Also, to think that the Pacers made no offer to him is ridiculous. They may have low balled him, but of course his agent will come out and say something like that to save face and protect Brad.

I can only go by what was said by all parties involved and that was that the Pacers never made an offer.

Here's just one of the articles from the time:

"● BRAD MILLER VISITS JAZZ, NUGGETS: Brad Miller appears to be eyeing an exit from the Indiana Pacers, meeting with officials from the Utah Jazz and Denver Nuggets.

The Pacers, who are facing a cash crunch, have been exploring ways to unload salaries and free up more money to sign their key free agents. They have yet to offer Miller a contract.

The Jazz and the Nuggets have more money to sign the free-agent center than the Pacers.

"If they throw a big number at him, it could be over," Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh said. "

-Bball

bulletproof
08-17-2004, 03:37 PM
I may be wrong, but I don't think the Pacers ever got the opportunity to make Brad an offer. His agent was out of the gates and running and fielding offers while the Pacers were still settling JO's affairs. I've gone into this in detail before and I'm kind of tired of repeating myself, but there is a pecking order when it comes to re-signing FAs. In the case of the Pacers, Reggie is always taken care of last because he and Walsh have an understanding. Beyond that, go back and re-read my old posts.

Bball
08-17-2004, 03:51 PM
I may be wrong, but I don't think the Pacers ever got the opportunity to make Brad an offer. His agent was out of the gates and running and fielding offers while the Pacers were still settling JO's affairs. I've gone into this in detail before and I'm kind of tired of repeating myself, but there is a pecking order when it comes to re-signing FAs. In the case of the Pacers, Reggie is always taken care of last because he and Walsh have an understanding. Beyond that, go back and re-read my old posts.



Educate me on what I am missing. Help me understand the negotiation process in this situation. Reggie will be dealt with last because they have an understanding. JO will be getting the max and that is a given. What's to negotiate with JO? It is what it is. So then why would that have any bearing on giving BMiller an offer (and fairly soon in the process) unless more was at play than what we've been told? That offer could be readied at any time because we KNEW what we were giving JO before the process even started.... as I understand it...

Are you telling me Brad's negotiations had to wait while JO decided whether to accept the only offer we could possibly give him? Were there aspects of JO's contract requiring constant attention?

-Bball

bulletproof
08-17-2004, 03:55 PM
I may be wrong, but I don't think the Pacers ever got the opportunity to make Brad an offer. His agent was out of the gates and running and fielding offers while the Pacers were still settling JO's affairs. I've gone into this in detail before and I'm kind of tired of repeating myself, but there is a pecking order when it comes to re-signing FAs. In the case of the Pacers, Reggie is always taken care of last because he and Walsh have an understanding. Beyond that, go back and re-read my old posts.



Educate me on what I am missing. Help me understand the negotiation process in this situation. Reggie will be dealt with last because they have an understanding. JO will be getting the max and that is a given. What's to negotiate with JO? It is what it is. So then why would that have any bearing on giving BMiller an offer (and fairly soon in the process) unless more was at play than what we've been told? That offer could be readied at any time because we KNEW what we were giving JO before the process even started.... as I understand it...

Are you telling me Brad's negotiations had to wait while JO decided whether to accept the only offer we could possibly give him? Were there aspects of JO's contract requiring constant attention?

-Bball


Go...back...and...re...read...my...old...posts...o n this subject. You may have been out of the country when we discussed this, but if my memory serves me correctly, you were in attendance. You, me and Ragnar had this discussion loooong ago. Seems like at least 20 years ago.

indygeezer
08-17-2004, 04:30 PM
IIRC BM played some good ball but very often was either in foul trouble or injured to the point that JO had to play alot of minutes at the 5. If we
re going to have that situation, WHY NOT play lower payed Jeff and let the high priced Brad walk? It seems as if it is a matter of productivity for the $$$$ Now if Brad had been a consistant 35 min a game player it might have been different. But he wasnt.
And before you flame me...I was crying out loud when he signed with Chicago instead of us chasing him. I was one happy dude to get him. I was very pleased with what he brought us but when the pine time started mounting I lost faith. I was extremely upset last year when I saw what I thought was a management attitude of "we want to win right up to this amount of dollars". But I've calmed down enough to reflect on Brad's play...and enough to recognize that he's just another Boilermaker scrub that can't really make it in the NBA :devil:

SkipperZ
08-17-2004, 04:34 PM
maybe u guys are right and they never made brad an offer.... but im sure they at least gave him a lowball offer, which is fair for him to refuse, but my point is not that brad was dirty in any way.

he went out and found the best deal he could find, and the pacers did not have the means to match it.

but my point is just that bottom line is he is not werth the money he got, and i think as he gets older and his contract gets fatter that contract will be worse and worse.

and i truly believe that while he would be the best center on this team, he not not worlds better than foster and would not have won us a championship last year.

Shade
08-17-2004, 08:02 PM
bullet, which would you rather have?

C - Foster/Pollard/Harrison
PF - O'Neal/Croshere
SF - Artest/Bender/JJones
SG - Miller/Jackson/FJones
PG - Tinsley/Johnsons/Gill

OR

C - Miller/Foster/Harrison
PF - O'Neal/Croshere
SF - Artest/Bender/JJones
SG - Jackson/FJones
PG - Tinsley/Johnsons/Gill

bulletproof
08-17-2004, 10:33 PM
bullet, which would you rather have?

C - Foster/Pollard/Harrison
PF - O'Neal/Croshere
SF - Artest/Bender/JJones
SG - Miller/Jackson/FJones
PG - Tinsley/Johnsons/Gill

OR

C - Miller/Foster/Harrison
PF - O'Neal/Croshere
SF - Artest/Bender/JJones
SG - Jackson/FJones
PG - Tinsley/Johnsons/Gill


I don't play games like that because one is a reality and one is not. I'll take the here and now anytime over the past.