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luis3ep
09-13-2010, 10:01 PM
Just thought I'd leave this here..

http://i52.tinypic.com/2hp63dc.png

Hicks
09-13-2010, 10:02 PM
Beat me to it.

Sookie
09-13-2010, 10:04 PM
I think I've read AJ's back scrimmaging too. Anyone know if Collison's cast has come off, and if he can play?

vnzla81
09-13-2010, 10:09 PM
Nice, now we got our power forward :dance:

xBulletproof
09-13-2010, 10:14 PM
Now, I start praying that this holds up and he can start most of his rookie year. :)

Peck
09-13-2010, 10:16 PM
Let's get the season going.....

:dance::dance::dance:

MillerTime
09-13-2010, 10:17 PM
Why are we hearing mixed statuses for Hansbrough? One week we're told hes better, then a week after we're told hes not, and now we're back to "hes back"

Its really hard to beleive that hes back after hearing these mixed reviews.

pizza guy
09-13-2010, 10:19 PM
Yeah, all of the conflicting reports are...

dizzying

:rimshot:

BlueNGold
09-13-2010, 10:21 PM
Good news. I am happy to hear that because I love the way he plays the game.

However, there's no way I'm getting my hopes up on that. Let's see where he is after about 6 months of play.

ChristianDudley
09-13-2010, 10:26 PM
I heard about a week or 2 ago that Daren Collison was "running with" the rest of the guys, meaning playing some pickup games with Roy/PG/Rush/Magnum/Price/etc. Good to hear Tyler is back and it is great to hear all of our young guys "healing" right before training camp starts.

BBQ
09-13-2010, 10:45 PM
This is wonderful news. I'm really hoping Tyler can come out and shock the league this year. I still am baffled about what the heck happened to him though.

odeez
09-13-2010, 11:05 PM
I hope it's true, it would a big lift for us!

pizza guy
09-13-2010, 11:06 PM
This is wonderful news. I'm really hoping Tyler can come out and shock the league this year. I still am baffled about what the heck happened to him though.

Three things.

1. I completely agree with this post.

2. Your screenname is awesome.

3. Your avatar is awesome.

--pizza

Pacers#1Fan
09-13-2010, 11:30 PM
Very encouraging news. Along with hearing Lance is back in Conseco this has been a pretty good day for Pacers' nation.

pwee31
09-13-2010, 11:35 PM
Why are we hearing mixed statuses for Hansbrough? One week we're told hes better, then a week after we're told hes not, and now we're back to "hes back"

Its really hard to beleive that hes back after hearing these mixed reviews.

I know I heard Tyler was playing sometime this summer? It wasn't with the Pacers or under their care, but I heard he was playing pickup somewhere.

I think I'll take PG's word for it that he's back!! :woot:

ChristianDudley
09-13-2010, 11:52 PM
I can't wait to see Hansbrough back with the Pacers actually on the court throwing opponents on the floor LOLOLOLOLOL. I remember last year against the Bucks somewhere at the end of the game, I think we were getting blown out as well, but Hansbrough didn't care one bit and he threw Bogut to the ground, threw down a thunderous dunk, and then stared at Bogut and stepped over him and ran down the other way haha. If Tyler can stay healthy, I'd love for him to be our starting PF--imo, he's perfect next to Hibbert.

BBQ
09-14-2010, 12:17 AM
I can't wait to see Hansbrough back with the Pacers actually on the court throwing opponents on the floor LOLOLOLOLOL. I remember last year against the Bucks somewhere at the end of the game, I think we were getting blown out as well, but Hansbrough didn't care one bit and he threw Bogut to the ground, threw down a thunderous dunk, and then stared at Bogut and stepped over him and ran down the other way haha. If Tyler can stay healthy, I'd love for him to be our starting PF--imo, he's perfect next to Hibbert.

Oh man, I remember that. Tyler has an on and an off button (i'm not sure he has the off button actually). If he is on the floor you better be ready to play. I wonder though how he and Roy would do in terms of rebounding the basketball.

pizza guy
09-14-2010, 01:04 AM
I'm pretty sure that Psycho T is just going to scare the other team away from the rebounds. Also, I like to think that with Roy's improved conditioning, and work with Bill Walton, he's going to be better in every facet of the game.

I tend to subscribe to the thinking that Dudley just expressed, that Hans is perfect next to Hungry Hungry Hibbert.

--pizza

ReginaldWayne
09-14-2010, 01:11 AM
I'm pretty sure that Psycho T is just going to scare the other team away from the rebounds. Also, I like to think that with Roy's improved conditioning, and work with Bill Walton, he's going to be better in every facet of the game.

I tend to subscribe to the thinking that Dudley just expressed, that Hans is perfect next to Hungry Hungry Hibbert.

--pizza

I saw Roy in the grocery store a couple days ago, he is looking huge. He used to have no shoulders, no arm strength. He looks strong and in great shape right now..

O'Bird
09-14-2010, 01:21 AM
I wonder though how he and Roy would do in terms of rebounding the basketball.

Good question. I'd expand that to: how would the whole team do when Tyler and Roy are on the floor together? They actually did not play a lot of minutes together last year, but it looks like that could change this year.

On the defensive end, rebounding is in large part a function of recovering from team defense to cordon off the restricted area, or hopefully a little more. So a guy who blocks out religiously is helping the team get the ball off the board even if he isn't getting a lot of rebounds himself.

Roy took on more responsibility for the team defense last year, and he was especially productive blocking and changing shots - one of the most productive centers in the league at that, in fact. It was a big reason that the Pacers were a substantially improved defensive team. But he's got to improve his selection so that he doesn't get himself out of position for the rebound (an occasion when he fouls, as well).

Roy is way below average on the defensive board, but he's only a little below average on the offensive board. How about a goal for him of average on the defensive board, and substantially above on the offensive?

The Pacers rebounded the ball on the defensive board best when Foster was in the game, and second best when Tyler was in the game. On the offensive board they were best when Tyler was in the game.

Remember that Larry Bird challenged Danny Granger to become a better rebounder this year.

Last year, Brandon Rush was one of the top rebounders among shooting guards, especially on the defensive board.


I think that the single best thing they could do to improve the defense is become an average defensive rebounding team; if you wanted to argue that reduced fouling is a higher priority, I would concede your point, but I'd add that reducing the number of second shots is one of the best ways to reduce fouling, so you're actually working to solve both problems. The Pacers' field goal defense was already quite good last year, but getting the first rebound would also help with that. That's why I think that defensive rebounding should be the priority.

.

Trophy
09-14-2010, 07:57 AM
Now it looks like we have a starting PF and an even better shot at the playoffs. :happydanc

DaveP63
09-14-2010, 08:09 AM
I can't wait to see Hansbrough back with the Pacers actually on the court throwing opponents on the floor LOLOLOLOLOL. I remember last year against the Bucks somewhere at the end of the game, I think we were getting blown out as well, but Hansbrough didn't care one bit and he threw Bogut to the ground, threw down a thunderous dunk, and then stared at Bogut and stepped over him and ran down the other way haha. If Tyler can stay healthy, I'd love for him to be our starting PF--imo, he's perfect next to Hibbert.

Yes!!! That still brings a smile to my face. I remember sitting in my chair and LMAO :D

duke dynamite
09-14-2010, 09:05 AM
Let's get the season going.....

:dance::dance::dance:
Uhh, no. Pacers season=less Halo Reach time.

Unclebuck
09-14-2010, 09:08 AM
Why are we hearing mixed statuses for Hansbrough? One week we're told hes better, then a week after we're told hes not, and now we're back to "hes back"

Its really hard to beleive that hes back after hearing these mixed reviews.

This was discussed I think in another thread. Pacers have reasons to be cautious and reasons to publically not allowing him practice full speed. Legal reasons, nothing wrong with protecting the NBA and the organization

Unclebuck
09-14-2010, 09:10 AM
I tend to subscribe to the thinking that Dudley just expressed, that Hans is perfect next to Hungry Hungry Hibbert.

--pizza

I cwertainly hope you are right, I have my doubts, but we really haven't seen enough to know. (defense might be a problem, although Tyler surprised me with his lateral quickness, so I'm willing to wait a see)

90'sNBARocked
09-14-2010, 10:34 AM
Uhh, no. Pacers season=less Halo Reach time.

LOL

My 9 year old son, is freakin OBSESSED with that game. I had o reserve some freakin special copy and he hounds me literally evrey day "did halo reach come yet"?

imawhat
09-14-2010, 10:38 AM
My concern is that they're good at boxing out, but neither are pursuers like Troy Murphy. One of them will have to change that. Good news is that we've seen Roy's numbers up when Troy didn't play.

Doddage
09-14-2010, 10:40 AM
I'm praying that Hansbrough is good to go from this point on and there won't be any setbacks, any major ones at the very least. I loved the chemistry that him and Hibbert showed at the Summer League last year and it made me look forward to seeing them on the floor together last season for at least a few stretches. Of course it couldn't happen, but I'm hoping this year will be different. Since we don't have Murph, there's a good chance Hans will see a lot of minutes provided his health permits it.

If we can find a way to consolidate some assets and then sign Rolle, we should be good to go this season. Our focus from that point would be to improve the athleticism and defense in the frontcourt and see where our SG and backup PG situations stand. Good thing we have expiring contracts.

Brad8888
09-14-2010, 10:58 AM
Psycho is back! Good! The Pacers need him.

I am ready to see him get acclimated to basketball again, then NBA basketball for the very first time as a healthy player. I would say we should see progress on that by about December or so, with his minutes being very slowly increased to the 15 or so range by then, but hopefully with an eye towards reducing the impact of the mistakes on both ends of the court that he will surely make again as he did this past partial season until he is actually ready to step on the NBA court for real as (hopefully) a secondary low post threat to balance against Roy and keep the opposition from just keying on Roy.

He should be 3rd or 4th on the depth chart at the 4 at this point (behind the obvious Granger, possibly McRoberts if he has not been converted into a shooting guard, Foster, though he will spend a lot of his time at the 5 backing up Roy, and possibly Rolle who looked very good both in his highlights from last year and during summer league, if we sign Rolle) until he gets back into the flow of basketball at the speed and power of the NBA game. He could end up as high as 2nd in the rotation at the 4 this year if things go well for him, but he will need to play with a degree of control in order to do so. The NBA has seen enough of him to understand how to turn his agressiveness against him pretty quickly until he learns the tricks of the NBA trade.

duke dynamite
09-14-2010, 11:02 AM
LOL

My 9 year old son, is freakin OBSESSED with that game. I had o reserve some freakin special copy and he hounds me literally evrey day "did halo reach come yet"?
If he was obsessed he'd know that it would be out on the 13th. LOL :p

naptownmenace
09-14-2010, 11:11 AM
This is great news but I can't help but have a sinking feeling about Psycho T's ability to stay healthy. Let's just call it the Bender vibe. :shudder:

90'sNBARocked
09-14-2010, 11:17 AM
If he was obsessed he'd know that it would be out on the 13th. LOL :p

He does, lol

he just thinks Dad is "holding back", lol

bphil
09-14-2010, 11:29 AM
Please let's not get our hopes up too high just yet. Just because Hansbrough is "back" doesn't necessarily mean he's going to be the same. This vertigo situation can be awful, and often it can be something that you simply learn to cope with over time as opposed to something that genuinely gets better.

I've spoken on this topic several times, and I suppose now it's time to admit that I'm personally dealing with the same thing, and have been since December of 2000.

I came down with a severe bacterial sinus/ear infection in my right ear while on my honeymoon in Cancun, and I also got a concussion at the same time after smashing my head into a stone wall (yes, it was a rough trip). Since then I have had mild intermittent dizziness on a daily basis. For the most part I'm fine now... unless I try to run. If I run at all, it's over. I get so dizzy I can barely stand up. And that's after 10 years.

Now I don't know anything about Hansbrough's situation, it could be completely different than mine. All I'm saying is that this sort of thing usually doesn't suddenly get better, it very slowly improves over a long period of time as your brain adjusts to the changes in your balance, and in my case it hasn't improved much at all.

I feel terrible for Tyler. I can deal with my situation without too much trouble, but I'm not a professional athlete. I couldn't imagine having this and trying to play basketball for a living...

Hicks
09-14-2010, 11:38 AM
Do you think if you ran every day for as long as you could that your brain would gradually adjust like it did with regards to your normal daily movement (walking, sitting up/down, laying up/down)?

MLB007
09-14-2010, 12:36 PM
This is great news but I can't help but have a sinking feeling about Psycho T's ability to stay healthy. Let's just call it the Bender vibe. :shudder:

What a downer Dan. :o
Get over it. :censored:

Since86
09-14-2010, 01:00 PM
Imagine that. Training camp is right around the corner, and guys are starting to come back into town, and Hans is cleared for play. Who would have thought?

Like I said a month and a half ago, they would wait until training camp before releasing him. You know he's been chomping at the bit to play ball, and if he was released you can easily see someone over-do-it. By waiting it allows the team to closely monitor the situation and can step in and shut things down at the slightest sign of complications. The one of the biggest concerns during rehab is pushing TOO HARD. Players routinely put themselves in bad situations because they don't listen to their bodies, and they try pushing through the pain.

When your investing that much money in someone, you want to err on the side of caution.

Hicks
09-14-2010, 01:10 PM
He still hasn't been officially cleared to play, so far as we know.

naptownmenace
09-14-2010, 01:14 PM
What a downer Dan. :o
Get over it. :censored:

Meh... someone had to point out the white elephant in the room.

;)

Since86
09-14-2010, 01:15 PM
Poor choice of words, by me. But my point still stands. This type of news coming out at this point in the year, isn't a surprse.

pacers74
09-14-2010, 03:37 PM
My thoughts on all of the conflicting things we keep hearing about Tyler is, most of the good things is either coming for Tyler himself, or palyers who have been playing with him this summer. Anybody on the pacers staff is still saying he is not mediacally cleared to play yet and he is question mark to be back at the start of the season.
I think Tyler believes he is back at 100% and is playing like it, but he has not be medically cleared yet to play full contact.

speakout4
09-14-2010, 08:23 PM
I can't begin to predict whether tyler will have residual or even sporadic effects but if he is in decent health he will make a huge difference.

I think he was a great pick in 2009 and will be the most dominant paint player the pacers have had since Dale. JMO.

BlueNGold
09-14-2010, 08:29 PM
Isn't Roy supposed to be quicker? If so, Tyler might be fine next to him at PF. The reason we needed better length at PF was because Hibbert wasn't fast enough. I think we will see that Roy is faster for a couple reasons. He will be in better physical condition and will simply have more experience to compensate. As a result, I think Tyler will be perfectly fine next to him if he's healthy.

graphic-er
09-14-2010, 10:54 PM
I say just strap some boxing headgear on him and let him go all out. I wonder if the league would allow it.

Anthem
09-14-2010, 10:59 PM
Now it looks like we have a starting PF and an even better shot at the playoffs. :happydanc
The kid's a rookie. Let's not expect too much from him right off.

If he can give us backup minutes I'll be thrilled. Let's watch him do that before talking about starting.

bphil
09-15-2010, 08:31 AM
Do you think if you ran every day for as long as you could that your brain would gradually adjust like it did with regards to your normal daily movement (walking, sitting up/down, laying up/down)?

I think it would improve, yes. Your brain can do some pretty amazing things to adapt to injury. Running is so difficult, however, that I personally started cycling in order to keep in shape because I just couldn't deal with it. But as I said, I didn't have to deal with it.

I'm hoping that Tyler, if his situation is indeed similar to mine, keeps working as hard as he can so that eventually his brain will learn to correct his balance enough to give him a feeling of normalcy. It won't be easy... it's so unbelievably frustrating to not be able to go out and do simple things, like running, the way that you used to...

O'Bird
09-16-2010, 05:27 PM
The reason we needed better length at PF was because Hibbert wasn't fast enough.

I think I get your point, but I don't think that it follows. Of course, more length is always welcome, as is more speed, more strength, more spring, better anticipation, better lateral quickness, and quicker hands - which are more than anything else quicker shoulders (I take it you were referring to defense, yes?) - all contribute to help/team defense capabilities and neutralizing mismatch problems.


I think Tyler will be perfectly fine next to him if he's healthy.

I agree, and in fact I think they make a very nice pair. Tyler is going to surprise a lot of people this year.

And by the way, I'm going to stop adding "if he's healthy" to all my projections about Hansbrough - it gets tedious after about the 20th time.

.

dohman
09-16-2010, 05:38 PM
Here is some thing positive :)

since he has had vertigo he will be used to being dizzy when he slams into other players at full psycho t speed.. which means he should always be on balance and the other team will be dizzy.. so easy bucks

speakout4
09-16-2010, 06:54 PM
Here is some thing positive :)

since he has had vertigo he will be used to being dizzy when he slams into other players at full psycho t speed.. which means he should always be on balance and the other team will be dizzy.. so easy bucks
That's a positive. Let's give all our PFs concussions and ear infections.

McKeyFan
09-16-2010, 10:07 PM
And by the way, I'm going to stop adding "if he's healthy" to all my projections about Hansbrough - it gets tedious
.
So does his failure to get healthy.

MLB007
09-16-2010, 10:24 PM
so does unrealistic fans.
If he'd blown his knee out, we'd be hoping he could be coming back this soon.
He's been here 1 year.......
keep some perspective

BlueNGold
09-16-2010, 11:13 PM
I think I get your point, but I don't think that it follows. Of course, more length is always welcome, as is more speed, more strength, more spring, better anticipation, better lateral quickness, and quicker hands - which are more than anything else quicker shoulders (I take it you were referring to defense, yes?) - all contribute to help/team defense capabilities and neutralizing mismatch problems.



I agree, and in fact I think they make a very nice pair. Tyler is going to surprise a lot of people this year.

And by the way, I'm going to stop adding "if he's healthy" to all my projections about Hansbrough - it gets tedious after about the 20th time.

.

The point is, someone needs to have good enough lateral quickness AND the ability to protect the rim. Tyler Hansborough is not going to do that sufficiently. I am not sure Roy had that capability last year. It will be interesting to see if he does this year.

I hope you are right about Tyler. I love his game regardless of the fact I'm not sure if he's the answer for the 4.

O'Bird
09-17-2010, 12:56 AM
The point is, someone needs to have good enough lateral quickness AND the ability to protect the rim. ... I am not sure Roy had that capability last year. It will be interesting to see if he does this year.

He was one of the best shot-blockers at center in the league (tied for 8th, per minute, with Gortat).

The Pacers had one of the best opponent FG%s in the league for shots at the rim (tied for 6th with Cleveland); that wasn't all Roy, but he was a big part of it. I think that the people who still want to claim that the Pacers were a bad defensive team last season might want to meditate on that fact, by the way.

(Solomon Jones, who is usually ignored or called "useless" around here, was 8th among centers in charges taken, again per minute.)

Hibbert's fouls per minute also went down significantly last season, which is largely a function of his getting to his spots quickly enough.


I hope you are right about Tyler. I love his game regardless of the fact I'm not sure if he's the answer for the 4.

I think that he is, at least for next year.

Provided he's healthy...! There I go again.

I thought he was a good defender last year, giving him some slack for being a rookie. Looks like he'll rebound (in particular outstanding on the offensive board).

The shooting wasn't there, but surely we can confidently predict that that will come around, given what he did in college? The FT attempts were definitely happening, and you'd expect him to shoot them as well as he did in college, again predictably, at some point in the near future. Given good health, of course... (!)

He took good care of the ball, and was 14th among rotation PF's in assist to turnover ratio (not incidentally, Josh McRoberts was a huge 2nd in the league, and Troy was 10th).

He and McRoberts both have a chance to be special, or at least especially valuable. I'm giving Tyler the edge right now, because of the rebounding and the FT attempts, and because he's shown in the past that he can make shots; both of them need to get a lot of shots up after hours in the next two years.

They both have great feel for the game, good hands, and a ton of potential.

_____________

MLB007
09-17-2010, 10:24 AM
He was one of the best shot-blockers at center in the league (tied for 8th, per minute, with Gortat).

The Pacers had one of the best opponent FG%s in the league for shots at the rim (tied for 6th with Cleveland); that wasn't all Roy, but he was a big part of it. I think that the people who still want to claim that the Pacers were a bad defensive team last season might want to meditate on that fact, by the way.

(Solomon Jones, who is usually ignored or called "useless" around here, was 8th among centers in charges taken, again per minute.)

Hibbert's fouls per minute also went down significantly last season, which is largely a function of his getting to his spots quickly enough.



I think that he is, at least for next year.

Provided he's healthy...! There I go again.

I thought he was a good defender last year, giving him some slack for being a rookie. Looks like he'll rebound (in particular outstanding on the offensive board).

The shooting wasn't there, but surely we can confidently predict that that will come around, given what he did in college? The FT attempts were definitely happening, and you'd expect him to shoot them as well as he did in college, again predictably, at some point in the near future. Given good health, of course... (!)

He took good care of the ball, and was 14th among rotation PF's in assist to turnover ratio (not incidentally, Josh McRoberts was a huge 2nd in the league, and Troy was 10th).

He and McRoberts both have a chance to be special, or at least especially valuable. I'm giving Tyler the edge right now, because of the rebounding and the FT attempts, and because he's shown in the past that he can make shots; both of them need to get a lot of shots up after hours in the next two years.

They both have great feel for the game, good hands, and a ton of potential.

_____________

Couldn't say it any better. :)

xBulletproof
09-17-2010, 03:36 PM
The only thing I disagreed with in O'Birds post was the idea that Josh and Tyler have a "ton" of potential. I'd say Paul George has that, the 2 PFs have some potential. A ton sounds like they could both be perennial All Stars.

I don't believe that's the case, even in best case scenario.

Unclebuck
09-17-2010, 04:07 PM
I think Tyler has a lot more potential than McBob. Might not be yearly All-Star calibur, but maybe an Antonio Davis-type? JMO.

Oh no, we argued about that seemingly most of last season

Day-V
09-17-2010, 04:32 PM
Oh no, we argued about that seemingly most of last season

Oh, well in that case, let me just go right ahead and delete my opinion on Tyler ASAP.

Ozwalt72
09-17-2010, 04:42 PM
Potential is one of the most overused and overpowered words applied to players in professional sports.

1984
09-17-2010, 04:44 PM
That is potentially the most accurate statement on this thread.

speakout4
09-17-2010, 06:53 PM
That is potentially the most accurate statement on this thread.
90% of potential is never realized and the world is full of people who were said to at one time have potential.

That said Tyler has enough ability, heart, desire and just plain nastiness to succeed. Put those qualities together and he will be a formidable presence on the court.

McKeyFan
09-17-2010, 08:52 PM
"Potential means you ain't done it yet."

—Vince Lombardi

pacer4ever
09-17-2010, 09:03 PM
This is great news but I can't help but have a sinking feeling about Psycho T's ability to stay healthy. Let's just call it the Bender vibe. :shudder:

bender was completly different he was to tall to fast his knees were bulit for a normal guy not a 7fter that was his promblem he coulnt help that

O'Bird
09-18-2010, 03:36 AM
The only thing I disagreed with in O'Birds post was the idea that Josh and Tyler have a "ton" of potential. I'd say Paul George has that, the 2 PFs have some potential. A ton sounds like they could both be perennial All Stars.

I don't believe that's the case, even in best case scenario.

Shall we say 750 lbs. of potential?

For the record, I'm not predicting perennial all-star status for Josh McRoberts; that event is almost exclusively for scorers, and he may never be much in that area. Tyler is another matter - maybe not a perennial, but he might get to the all-star game some day.


______________

Naptown_Seth
09-18-2010, 06:33 AM
I'm not a believer in his potential greatness but I'm happy he's going to get a fair shot to prove me wrong....unless JOB suddenly gives him the Josh/AJ treatment out of nowhere.

Plus I have to think it's been really miserable for Tyler in regular life the last year.

McKeyFan
09-18-2010, 09:33 AM
Plus I have to think it's been really miserable for Tyler in regular life the last year.
Be pretty tough for a guy that motivated to not only sit the bench but to be kept from practicing, even privately.

MLB007
09-18-2010, 09:53 AM
The kid's a rookie. Let's not expect too much from him right off.

If he can give us backup minutes I'll be thrilled. Let's watch him do that before talking about starting.

I don't see that. THis is a highly intelligent, super highly motivated guy.
With a first class NBA body.
And he's not actually a rookie, as often as that's used here.
He was here. He did learn the plays and be around the the team for a year. He did play some games so he saw what he needed to work on.
That's a BIG step forward over an actual rookie.

Even if he was a true rookie, I would still expect him to fall in the "exception" to the rules of it taking a year to learn the ropes.
He has a ton to learn, but already has the intangibles (IMO) that you can't teach.
And that gets him on the floor a lot. If not starting.

MLB007
09-18-2010, 10:12 AM
Isn't Roy supposed to be quicker? If so, Tyler might be fine next to him at PF. The reason we needed better length at PF was because Hibbert wasn't fast enough. I think we will see that Roy is faster for a couple reasons. He will be in better physical condition and will simply have more experience to compensate. As a result, I think Tyler will be perfectly fine next to him if he's healthy.

Tyler was one of the quickest lateral movement testers for big men. His reach is at 7' and his vertical is 34".
Aside from that he's big as a horse.
He will be fine next to Roy.

MLB007
09-18-2010, 10:24 AM
90% of potential is never realized and the world is full of people who were said to at one time have potential.

That said Tyler has enough ability, heart, desire and just plain nastiness to succeed. Put those qualities together and he will be a formidable presence on the court.

Exactly.
I'm not sure what the nay sayers are seeing or not seeing.
Honestly, I'm kind of concerned that there is an ingrained "white men can't jump" mentality at work here.
The kid measured/tested with the best in the classes before and after him.
Yet there is an endless string of "not quick enough" "not enough "length", etc etc BS
Yes his post game needs work, but did anyone notice that his main problem was he didn't elevate on his shots in the paint? Not that he CAN"T, but that he hadn't had to in college because of his size and strength.
Now he does.
Well guess what? This is a SMART kid that is DRIVEN like a Sherman tank.
AND he CAN jump and he DOES have the length/reach.
He WILL figure it out (count on it) and then his 7' reach and 34" vertical AND wide body and strength COULD make him a real force to be reckoned with.

Personally, I think he's got as much chance at stardom as does Paul George.
It's certainly possible that he's never an all star, but I won't be surprised if he becomes one too.
EIther way he will be a SOLID starting nba 4 for a long time.
And a leader on the floor and probably in the locker-room.

So other than worrying about the vertigo (reasonable) it's really annoying to see this kid dissed so much.

xBulletproof
09-18-2010, 01:17 PM
Shall we say 750 lbs. of potential?

For the record, I'm not predicting perennial all-star status for Josh McRoberts; that event is almost exclusively for scorers, and he may never be much in that area. Tyler is another matter - maybe not a perennial, but he might get to the all-star game some day.

This I can agree with. I thought you might have not really meant "ton of potential", just typed it up without thinking.

Anthem
09-18-2010, 01:54 PM
so does unrealistic fans.
If he'd blown his knee out, we'd be hoping he could be coming back this soon.
He's been here 1 year.......
keep some perspective
Not unrealistic at all. If you blow a knee out, everybody knows you'll be out for a while.

Tyler was day-to-day for MONTHS.***






***Somebody's going to say "He was never listed as day to day!" You're right. But the point is, he went from Christmas to Groundhog's day with TPTB just claiming that he had an ear infection and would be back soon. His projected return date was "just a little ways out" all the way until the last month of the season, and then the whole summer it's been "Well he's doing great and pretty soon we'll let him start practicing."

And we still haven't officially heard that he's been cleared to practice.

Anthem
09-18-2010, 01:58 PM
I don't see that. THis is a highly intelligent, super highly motivated guy.
With a first class NBA body.
And he's not actually a rookie, as often as that's used here.
He was here. He did learn the plays and be around the the team for a year. He did play some games so he saw what he needed to work on.
That's a BIG step forward over an actual rookie.

Even if he was a true rookie, I would still expect him to fall in the "exception" to the rules of it taking a year to learn the ropes.
He has a ton to learn, but already has the intangibles (IMO) that you can't teach.
And that gets him on the floor a lot. If not starting.
Fine, he's a second year player and not a rookie. I still say that if you're expecting starter-quality play out of him your expectations are unreasonably high. The guy hasn't played basketball in half a year.

If he can come in and carve out a role with solid backup minutes by Thanksgiving, I'll be very pleased. If he can manage to play those minutes for a year, I'll be absolutely thrilled.

It's not even REMOTELY implausible to think that even if he's fine going into training camp, that this could flare up again after a month. Or two. Or three.

MLB007
09-19-2010, 04:33 PM
Not unrealistic at all. If you blow a knee out, everybody knows you'll be out for a while.

Tyler was day-to-day for MONTHS.***



And now he's supposedly ok.
What's the difference?

MLB007
09-19-2010, 04:43 PM
Fine, he's a second year player and not a rookie. I still say that if you're expecting starter-quality play out of him your expectations are unreasonably high. The guy hasn't played basketball in half a year.

If he can come in and carve out a role with solid backup minutes by Thanksgiving, I'll be very pleased. If he can manage to play those minutes for a year, I'll be absolutely thrilled.

It's not even REMOTELY implausible to think that even if he's fine going into training camp, that this could flare up again after a month. Or two. Or three.


I understand some of you caution. It's not implausbile to think it could flare up again.
It's also not implausible that it may never occur again.
Some of you seem to be dealing with this like a physical injury. Like he's going to be gimpy and not 100% and will have to work his way back to "backup minutes". :p
This is a clydesdale horse of a kid. One that loves hoops and competeing and he hasn't been able to do it because of 'silly' dizziness. He's expressed his frustration about it and we've heard that he was expressing his frustration in the weight room.
IF he's ok, he will be back better than ever and bigger and stronger to boot.
Before the "injury" he was averaging more than 10pts and about 7 rebounds for the 10-15 games before he went down.
And doing that is less than 20 minutes!
I'll take that starting or off the bench.
And that's nothing more than he was ALREADY DOING AS A ROOKIE.

Now he's back and chomping at the bit like a rabid dog.
Yes, I expect a bit more than you do. :D

Anthem
09-19-2010, 04:51 PM
And now he's supposedly ok.
What's the difference?
And by "supposedly" you mean "hasn't been stated by the Pacers or by any media outlet."

This whole thing is based of a 4-word tweet from a rookie.

Could it be true? Absolutely. But it's by no means a sure thing.

Anthem
09-19-2010, 05:07 PM
Some of you seem to be dealing with this like a physical injury. Like he's going to be gimpy and not 100% and will have to work his way back to "backup minutes".
Yes, that's exactly what i'm treating it as. A physical injury. And with good reason... it's what he has.

An injury where his sense of balance was so bad that he could barely walk, let alone run and jump. If he's actually been cleared to practice (which we don't know), it's still very possible that he might not be 100%.


Before the "injury" he was averaging more than 10pts and about 7 rebounds for the 10-15 games before he went down.
I'm not sure why you're using scare quotes around "injury." Regardless, I think your memory is inflating his numbers a bit.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/tyler_hansbrough/game_by_game_stats.html


And that's nothing more than he was ALREADY DOING AS A ROOKIE.

I think you mean ALREADY DOING BEFORE SUSTAINING AN INJURY THAT KEPT HIM OUT FOR THE MAJORITY OF HIS ROOKIE SEASON.


Yes, I expect a bit more than you do. :D
If he's not ready to go by the start of training camp, I'll lay a signature bet that that he doesn't play 41 games this year.

xBulletproof
09-19-2010, 05:11 PM
I'm not sure why you're using scare quotes around "injury." Regardless, I think your memory is inflating his numbers a bit.

Actually, he didn't inflate much of anything.

In January, in 14 games Tyler averaged 10.8 ppg, and 5.7 rebs per game. I guess you could say he inflated it by 1 rebound. But that's seriously nitpicking seeing as how he averaged closer to 11 points per game, than 10. ;)

Hicks
09-19-2010, 05:32 PM
And by "supposedly" you mean "hasn't been stated by the Pacers or by any media outlet."

This whole thing is based of a 4-word tweet from a rookie.

Could it be true? Absolutely. But it's by no means a sure thing.

That's an oversimplification. We've heard more than just a '4-word tweet from a rookie'. Peck has heard things from people who would know that Tyler's been playing full contact ball for weeks if not months, it's just not been officially given the OK by the organization, likely for legal purposes.

Sookie
09-19-2010, 05:41 PM
That's an oversimplification. We've heard more than just a '4-word tweet from a rookie'. Peck has heard things from people who would know that Tyler's been playing full contact ball for weeks if not months, it's just not been officially given the OK by the organization, likely for legal purposes.

Perhaps he isn't allowed to go full force, but can still play. And perhaps the organization is doing that because..well..I wouldn't let Hans go full force until absolutely necessary either. The team doesn't need any more injuries. :laugh:

IndyHoosier
09-19-2010, 10:49 PM
In this day and age of instant news, I can't believe that that no family, friend, or hanger on is reporting anything telling about Psycho T!!! Except for the PG tweet. Wow!!

Anthem
09-19-2010, 11:07 PM
That's an oversimplification. We've heard more than just a '4-word tweet from a rookie'. Peck has heard things from people who would know that Tyler's been playing full contact ball for weeks if not months, it's just not been officially given the OK by the organization, likely for legal purposes.
Do I like Peck? Absolutely. Do I trust Peck? Sure. Do I trust his sources? Probably. But that's at best fourth-hand information that doesn't dispute my point... Tyler's activity hasn't been stated or even hinted by the Pacers or by any official outlet.

Look, I'm not saying the kid isn't playing. I'd be shocked if he wasn't playing any day he could walk to the bathroom without throwing up. I'm just saying that whether Tyler's actually "back" is not yet a closed question.

Hicks
09-20-2010, 12:17 AM
Fourth-hand?

A guy who can see for himself what Tyler is doing tells Peck. One, two. Not four. Three at most if it happened to be someone who told Peck's source (maybe, maybe not).

Either way, I really don't care; I trust the source (and I mean the guy who told Peck when I say that) not only to be honest, but to know what the hell he's talking about.

There's nothing about this information to be distorted "telephone game" style. Either he's playing full contact, or he's not, and the word is that yes, he is and has been. It wasn't a "maybe he is, maybe he isn't," it was simply a "yes, he is."

This tells me it's highly unlikely Tyler's still at the "I hope I don't throw up when I stand" phase.

Doubting the messenger or the message just to stand behind a technicality is overkill, man.

Who cares if there's no official announcement when it seems like he unofficially is anyway?

The real concern, to me, is whether or not this lasts. I'm confident I'll see him play. I'm not confident I'll see him stick around. That's another, much more significant, issue.

KennerLeaguer
09-20-2010, 07:51 AM
Before the "injury" he was averaging more than 10pts and about 7 rebounds for the 10-15 games before he went down.
And doing that is less than 20 minutes!


As I wrote on another board scoring about 10 points on 36% shooting is very inefficient. And 36% shooting is unacceptable for a backup point guard, let alone a 6'9 PF that you guys want to start. His being a rookie does not excuse such a woeful fieldgoal percentage. I expect him to get much better in this area but part of me is worried that it could be a sign that he will have problems finishing in the paint. Then again I barely saw any games. Maybe the fg% is because he was asked to take too many jumpshots. It appears that Roy was under 50% last season because he took a lot of jumpshots and missed the vast majority of them (based on 82games.com).

Also I still have concerns about Tyler's passing. Wasn't known for it in college and it appears he didn't do too much of it in his limited time last season.

Unclebuck
09-20-2010, 09:30 AM
As I wrote on another board scoring about 10 points on 36% shooting is very inefficient. And 36% shooting is unacceptable for a backup point guard, let alone a 6'9 PF that you guys want to start. His being a rookie does not excuse such a woeful fieldgoal percentage. I expect him to get much better in this area but part of me is worried that it could be a sign that he will have problems finishing in the paint. Then again I barely saw any games. Maybe the fg% is because he was asked to take too many jumpshots. It appears that Roy was under 50% last season because he took a lot of jumpshots and missed the vast majority of them (based on 82games.com).

Also I still have concerns about Tyler's passing. Wasn't known for it in college and it appears he didn't do too much of it in his limited time last season.

OK, I cannot dispute those stats. Sure he missed all of training camp and preseason and only played a few games, and never really settled in. But it is not uncommon for players who go on to big things to struggle shooting the ball in their rookie season. I could do a search of that, but I think it is so common, no reason to search for it. But his stats are his stats. He struggled in the paint,. he wasn't used to the size of the bigs in the NBA. But he got to the free throw line a lot (a great sign) plus he was effective shooting the midrange shot.

Having said all that, none of that is why I like him as a player or why I think he (if healthy) will be a winning player. He plays so hard - simply put that is it. He plays so hard. The ability and willingness to play that hard is a very rare talent, not usually found in NBA players. (it is bogus and IMO a huge insult, to suggest that any player could play that hard - the fact is they don't) I think the impact a player like Tyler has on his team is second only to the impact a superstar has on his team. Tyler's effort, attitude permeates the entire team

Larry Staverman
09-20-2010, 09:44 AM
As I wrote on another board scoring about 10 points on 36% shooting is very inefficient. And 36% shooting is unacceptable for a backup point guard, let alone a 6'9 PF that you guys want to start. His being a rookie does not excuse such a woeful fieldgoal percentage. I expect him to get much better in this area but part of me is worried that it could be a sign that he will have problems finishing in the paint. Then again I barely saw any games. Maybe the fg% is because he was asked to take too many jumpshots.

His fg% is of a concern but his volume of free throws mitigates it somewhat I think. If you look at his scoring average of 8.5 pts/game with 7.76 fg attempts/game that is a pretty efficient scoring rate. And I expect his fg% to improve with experience.

MLB007
09-20-2010, 02:43 PM
As I wrote on another board scoring about 10 points on 36% shooting is very inefficient. And 36% shooting is unacceptable for a backup point guard, let alone a 6'9 PF that you guys want to start. His being a rookie does not excuse such a woeful fieldgoal percentage. I expect him to get much better in this area but part of me is worried that it could be a sign that he will have problems finishing in the paint. Then again I barely saw any games. Maybe the fg% is because he was asked to take too many jumpshots. It appears that Roy was under 50% last season because he took a lot of jumpshots and missed the vast majority of them (based on 82games.com).

Also I still have concerns about Tyler's passing. Wasn't known for it in college and it appears he didn't do too much of it in his limited time last season.

His shot selection wasn't always the best, kind of like most rookies. :)
As for passing, your 4 typically isn't handling the ball much.
I will take wide body, humongous picks, rebounding, defense, energy, enthusiasm, team defense, locker-room presence, physical presence, etc before I worry about how well my 4 passes the ball.

MLB007
09-20-2010, 02:48 PM
OK, I cannot dispute those stats. Sure he missed all of training camp and preseason and only played a few games, and never really settled in. But it is not uncommon for players who go on to big things to struggle shooting the ball in their rookie season. I could do a search of that, but I think it is so common, no reason to search for it. But his stats are his stats. He struggled in the paint,. he wasn't used to the size of the bigs in the NBA. But he got to the free throw line a lot (a great sign) plus he was effective shooting the midrange shot.

Having said all that, none of that is why I like him as a player or why I think he (if healthy) will be a winning player. He plays so hard - simply put that is it. He plays so hard. The ability and willingness to play that hard is a very rare talent, not usually found in NBA players. (it is bogus and IMO a huge insult, to suggest that any player could play that hard - the fact is they don't) I think the impact a player like Tyler has on his team is second only to the impact a superstar has on his team. Tyler's effort, attitude permeates the entire team

Not to go too cliche' but he's a "winner". Has been at every level he's played at. Has that refuse to lose attitude that puts borderline talent like Brian Cardinal in the league for 10 years.

Another HUGE factor there IMO is that it's ever more rare to have a really big, tough guy that works that hard.
I get a bit tingly when I think about Tyler's work ethic, and how we know Roys been working, and it looks like PG is buying in...........................

I've got a good feeling about this group of guys :buddies:

(preseason optimisim - it's a beautiful thing) :)

BlueNGold
09-20-2010, 10:05 PM
Having said all that, none of that is why I like him as a player or why I think he (if healthy) will be a winning player. He plays so hard - simply put that is it. He plays so hard. The ability and willingness to play that hard is a very rare talent, not usually found in NBA players. (it is bogus and IMO a huge insult, to suggest that any player could play that hard - the fact is they don't) I think the impact a player like Tyler has on his team is second only to the impact a superstar has on his team. Tyler's effort, attitude permeates the entire team

People really don't understand that effort is an ability. Some people are simply able to exert more effort just as some people have more energy. Call it a good motor. It's not simply will (i.e. mental)...there is something physical to it.

I've played with and against a guy who played with that type of force and players simply give up fighting the guy for the ball...or the guy works his way to the next basket. Nothing pretty about it, but he just gets it done. Same with Tyler. Tyler's best effort is simply better than most people's best efforts.

Anthem
09-20-2010, 10:22 PM
Fourth-hand?

A guy who can see for himself what Tyler is doing tells Peck. One, two. Not four. Three at most if it happened to be someone who told Peck's source (maybe, maybe not).
If I hear it from somebody who saw it, that's firsthand.

If I hear it from Peck, who heard it from somebody who saw it, that's secondhand.

If I hear it from you, who heard it from Peck, who heard it from somebody who saw it, that's thirdhand. So if we assume that the guy saw it directly, that's where we're at.


Either he's playing full contact, or he's not, and the word is that yes, he is and has been. It wasn't a "maybe he is, maybe he isn't," it was simply a "yes, he is."

This tells me it's highly unlikely Tyler's still at the "I hope I don't throw up when I stand" phase.
I have no trouble believing Tyler's going full contact. I'd expect nothing less from him. And I strongly doubt he's still at "don't throw up when I stand" phase, since he couldn't even do non-contact workouts if that was the case.

All I've said is that it's overoptimistic to start penciling him in for anything more than backup minutes, Hicks. I repeat my earlier statement:


If he can come in and carve out a role with solid backup minutes by Thanksgiving, I'll be very pleased. If he can manage to play those minutes for a year, I'll be absolutely thrilled.

KennerLeaguer
09-20-2010, 10:46 PM
Having said all that, none of that is why I like him as a player or why I think he (if healthy) will be a winning player. He plays so hard - simply put that is it. He plays so hard. The ability and willingness to play that hard is a very rare talent, not usually found in NBA players. (it is bogus and IMO a huge insult, to suggest that any player could play that hard - the fact is they don't) I think the impact a player like Tyler has on his team is second only to the impact a superstar has on his team. Tyler's effort, attitude permeates the entire team

Oh, here we go. I got sick of the whole nonsense concerning "Tyler was the hardest working player I ever seen" when he was in college. I mean seriously can that even be measured? Can that be proven? My fave player of all time was Alonzo Mourning and he worked hard not only on offense but on defense too. Did it his whole career, college and pro. Worked out like a fiend. Got his body in the best of condition. Played like a warrior even though he was undersized for his position almost every time he took the court. Was playing through kidney problems and came back from a medical condition that almost killed him, still giving it 100% once he got back on the court. And I don't think he ever got 1/5 of the credit for playing hard on the court that Tyler has gotten during his short career. Oh did I mention he never managed to shoot anywhere neat as bad as 36% from the floor? Granted Tyler did not have a whole season to improve those stats but that point simply reminds us that there is a genuine health concern that Tyler must overcome as well.

If I played devil's advocate and claimed Tyler was the hardest working man on the court of all time, in the end it still isn't enough to overcome 36% field goal percentage. Not for a PF who makes a living scoring close to the basket. That percentage needs to go way up. And, no, going to the FT line does not make up for that terrible fg percentage. If he corrects that problem he is well on his way to living up to the lofty expectations.

Here's hoping that Tyler has enough work ethic to broaden his game and not just his biceps during the offseason. I watched him play for four years in college and he was a heck of a player but he hardly added anything to his game during those four years. What I want to see from Tyler is better footwork in the paint, more ability to score with his offhand, more of a faceup game (which he will need) and most of all an improved capability at passing the ball. I refuse to give him a pass anymore than I would Roy, Brandon, Paul and Darren. They all have ability and potential but they must prove it on the court.

judicata
09-21-2010, 01:00 AM
Oh, here we go. I got sick of the whole nonsense concerning "Tyler was the hardest working player I ever seen" when he was in college. I mean seriously can that even be measured? Can that be proven? My fave player of all time was Alonzo Mourning and he worked hard not only on offense but on defense too. Did it his whole career, college and pro. Worked out like a fiend. Got his body in the best of condition. Played like a warrior even though he was undersized for his position almost every time he took the court. Was playing through kidney problems and came back from a medical condition that almost killed him, still giving it 100% once he got back on the court. And I don't think he ever got 1/5 of the credit for playing hard on the court that Tyler has gotten during his short career. Oh did I mention he never managed to shoot anywhere neat as bad as 36% from the floor? Granted Tyler did not have a whole season to improve those stats but that point simply reminds us that there is a genuine health concern that Tyler must overcome as well.

If I played devil's advocate and claimed Tyler was the hardest working man on the court of all time, in the end it still isn't enough to overcome 36% field goal percentage. Not for a PF who makes a living scoring close to the basket. That percentage needs to go way up. And, no, going to the FT line does not make up for that terrible fg percentage. If he corrects that problem he is well on his way to living up to the lofty expectations.

Here's hoping that Tyler has enough work ethic to broaden his game and not just his biceps during the offseason. I watched him play for four years in college and he was a heck of a player but he hardly added anything to his game during those four years. What I want to see from Tyler is better footwork in the paint, more ability to score with his offhand, more of a faceup game (which he will need) and most of all an improved capability at passing the ball. I refuse to give him a pass anymore than I would Roy, Brandon, Paul and Darren. They all have ability and potential but they must prove it on the court.

Grind that axe!

Peck
09-21-2010, 03:32 AM
Why am I the topic of conversation here?

Anyway there is a difference between full contact scrimmage and a pick up game, at least for legal & insurance purposes.

KennerLeaguer
09-21-2010, 04:10 AM
Grind that axe!

Oh, I will thank you very much. Lets get away fro the Legend of Tyler stuff and judge him by the differece he makes on the court. I'm not one of those who dismiss him as a player or dismiss him as a starter. But I'm not going to suggest either that he brings an intangible to the table like "hard work" that no one else has. Now his extraordinary exploits permeates the collective will of the entire team? Oh, okay. Iím sure it does the same for the ushers and those serving snacks in the arena as well. Why its contagious! Fine. But 36% shooting is still 36% shooting. One could be the hardest working man in the NBA but that still isnít enough to justify a starting position at the PF until that situation is rectified.

Do I believe he will correct this? Yes, I do which means I expect him to earn time on the court (or a starting job) based upon HIS RESULTS. Iím not however relying on some idolatry of the abstract contribution his presence brings. Darren could be the greatest living leader amongst men but if he turned the ball over 3 times more than the assists he accumulated should he be in the starting lineup? Roy could bust his butt like no one else during the summers but if he didnít improve at all after his first year would he be worthy of starting? Thatís where Iím coming from. Iím results based. And I think we can have a decent discussion about Tyler without coming close to making him into some mythological figure.

Unclebuck
09-21-2010, 09:28 AM
Oh, here we go. I got sick of the whole nonsense concerning "Tyler was the hardest working player I ever seen" when he was in college. I mean seriously can that even be measured? Can that be proven? My fave player of all time was Alonzo Mourning and he worked hard not only on offense but on defense too. Did it his whole career, college and pro. Worked out like a fiend. Got his body in the best of condition. Played like a warrior even though he was undersized for his position almost every time he took the court. Was playing through kidney problems and came back from a medical condition that almost killed him, still giving it 100% once he got back on the court. And I don't think he ever got 1/5 of the credit for playing hard on the court that Tyler has gotten during his short career. Oh did I mention he never managed to shoot anywhere neat as bad as 36% from the floor? Granted Tyler did not have a whole season to improve those stats but that point simply reminds us that there is a genuine health concern that Tyler must overcome as well.

If I played devil's advocate and claimed Tyler was the hardest working man on the court of all time, in the end it still isn't enough to overcome 36% field goal percentage. Not for a PF who makes a living scoring close to the basket. That percentage needs to go way up. And, no, going to the FT line does not make up for that terrible fg percentage. If he corrects that problem he is well on his way to living up to the lofty expectations.

Here's hoping that Tyler has enough work ethic to broaden his game and not just his biceps during the offseason. I watched him play for four years in college and he was a heck of a player but he hardly added anything to his game during those four years. What I want to see from Tyler is better footwork in the paint, more ability to score with his offhand, more of a faceup game (which he will need) and most of all an improved capability at passing the ball. I refuse to give him a pass anymore than I would Roy, Brandon, Paul and Darren. They all have ability and potential but they must prove it on the court.



I never suggested that Tyler is the hardest working man in the NBA or in college. But the way he plays is rare. Mourning was great, he played as hard as anyone.

Can it be proven, can it be measured. Proven, No, measured, not sure, but I know it when I see it. Certainly cannot be measured in stats, certainly not shooting % - I do think though it is measured in the most important (and really) only stat that matters. Winning. And that was my point, Tyler will help a team win. He won't be the best player on a winning team, but he'll be a major contributor.

I didn't watch Tyler in college so cannot comment there, but I do know his team won, I assume he was a major factor in them winning, but I don't know that.

And no, Tyler "playing hard" doesn't give him a pass to not improve his game, nor does it mean we can overlook his weaknesses, nor does it mean we should overlook his strengths.

I will say his shooting % last season means little to me. lets see what he does after a full training camp, full preseason and a full season. If can make it through all that and play 70 games or so and still is shooting 36% or 42%, then we can discuss that in a negative light

Speed
09-21-2010, 09:39 AM
I am in the process of listening to the Jim O'brien show for 10/22/09.

Interesting note on Tyler, at this point, he was on the court with the coaching staff only for half hour increments. This is a week or so before the season started.

Jim said his next step would be longer time working with the coaching staff, then half court action.

So, I'd say his rookie year wasn't really much of a chance to show what he's capable of since early on he wasn't even allowed to practice.

O'Bird
09-21-2010, 12:16 PM
As I wrote on another board scoring about 10 points on 36% shooting is very inefficient.

Good point. But as Larry Staverman points out, this was somewhat mitigated by an extraordinary ability (for a rookie) to get to the line. His FT% was grade A in college, B-minus last season, so we can be very confident that he'll not only continue or get better at getting there, but also shoot it better when he gets there.

It's hard to make up for 36%, though, and your concern is justified.


I expect him to get much better in this area...

I do, too. Others have pointed out the various restrictions he was under last season, so I would only add that the nature of his injury (chronic stress reaction in the lower leg) was one that we would not expect to be kind to getting lift on his jumper or taking a good first step. He was consistently over .500 in college, for what that's worth.


...but part of me is worried that it could be a sign that he will have problems finishing in the paint. Then again I barely saw any games. Maybe the fg% is because he was asked to take too many jumpshots.

He took 225 shots.
108 were inside the restricted area;
44 were from the two low blocks/close baseline (he has a turnaround that looks like it could translate to the NBA level, but good-functioning ankles would help the most here);
11 more were below the foul line;
29 were from the elbows extended;
10 were from the foul line up;
19 were from either baseline/wing; and
4 threes.

If by "jump shots" you mean more than 18 feet, then he didn't take very many jump shots. If you mean literally "jump shots", he needs to be taking them if he's going to get himself driving lanes or play pick and roll.

The 15-18 from the elbows looks like a shot he should be good at. He shot .391 from the arc his senior year, so he'll probably shoot the midrange pretty well in the NBA.


It appears that Roy was under 50% last season because he took a lot of jumpshots and missed the vast majority of them (based on 82games.com).

That "because" is tricky to begin with (he was mediocre finishing at the rim), but in any case I question your claim that he took "a lot" of jump shots. I take it you are including jump hooks and turnarounds from the low post - but I would disagree with that, I think those are shots he should be taking. I also think that the elbow jumper is a great shot for him, and it looks like he'll be shooting it this season because they're going to run more offense through him at the high post.

I asked Roland at 82Games what his criterion for "jump shots" was, and he said it meant anything outside the paint, which is a messed-up definition, but there you go.

Roy shot 769 shots.
498 were in the restricted area;
155 were from either low block/close baseline;
12 were below the foul line;
52 were from the elbows extended
29 were from the foul line up;
19 were from the baseline/wings; and
4 threes.



Also I still have concerns about Tyler's passing. Wasn't known for it in college and it appears he didn't do too much of it in his limited time last season.

I think he was pretty good. He has a really good feel for the game and actually took good care of the ball, too.
___________

MLB007
09-21-2010, 12:20 PM
Grind that axe!

LOL, did Tyler date his sister or something?? :hmm:

MLB007
09-21-2010, 12:23 PM
Oh, I will thank you very much. Lets get away fro the Legend of Tyler stuff and judge him by the differece he makes on the court. I'm not one of those who dismiss him as a player or dismiss him as a starter. But I'm not going to suggest either that he brings an intangible to the table like "hard work" that no one else has. Now his extraordinary exploits permeates the collective will of the entire team? Oh, okay. I’m sure it does the same for the ushers and those serving snacks in the arena as well. Why its contagious! Fine. But 36% shooting is still 36% shooting. One could be the hardest working man in the NBA but that still isn’t enough to justify a starting position at the PF until that situation is rectified.

Do I believe he will correct this? Yes, I do which means I expect him to earn time on the court (or a starting job) based upon HIS RESULTS. I’m not however relying on some idolatry of the abstract contribution his presence brings. Darren could be the greatest living leader amongst men but if he turned the ball over 3 times more than the assists he accumulated should he be in the starting lineup? Roy could bust his butt like no one else during the summers but if he didn’t improve at all after his first year would he be worthy of starting? That’s where I’m coming from. I’m results based. And I think we can have a decent discussion about Tyler without coming close to making him into some mythological figure.

Mythological figure? Wow! ;)

By the way, where were you when he was playing a bunch and scoring and rebounding well and just generally pissing the other team off nightly with his bruising and banging ways?
Several players on several teams commented on it at the time. They didn't like it.
Seemed as though maybe he was playing too hard...............................:D

By the way, Alonzo was one of the true warriers of all time.
So if you are comparing to him, I'd say Tyler's in good company already.
I've never seen anyone here claim Tyler was the hardest worker of all time. He just rates in that upper 10% of players that achieve more than their talent would normally determine.
Those 10% are the guys that every GM wants on his team.

O'Bird
09-21-2010, 12:26 PM
My fave player of all time was Alonzo Mourning and he worked hard not only on offense but on defense too.

I love the guy, and I was happiest for him of all their players when they won the title.

Your implication is that Tyler did not work hard on defense, isn't it? I disagree, I thought he not only worked hard, but was amazingly effective for a rookie.


I refuse to give him a pass anymore than I would Roy, Brandon, Paul and Darren. They all have ability and potential but they must prove it on the court.

Absolutely agree.

____________

O'Bird
09-21-2010, 12:41 PM
People really don't understand that effort is an ability. Some people are simply able to exert more effort just as some people have more energy. Call it a good motor. It's not simply will (i.e. mental)...there is something physical to it.

Yes... We've all known people who "lose their spark", which implies that that inner energy and drive is something that can go away (I think we're talking about the same thing...). Doesn't that also mean that it's an ability that you can acquire - since you can lose it, can't you also gain it, develop it, increase it, like footwork? Maybe.

I'd only add to what you say that Tyler has other abilities as well, which he has certainly developed. I don't know how easy it is to develop good feel for the game (I think that takes practice, too, plus maybe something else), but he's got that as well.

It's the combination of the motor, the skills, and the feel for the game that makes me think that he could be special.

______________

KennerLeaguer
09-21-2010, 01:44 PM
I never suggested that Tyler is the hardest working man in the NBA or in college. But the way he plays is rare. Mourning was great, he played as hard as anyone.

Can it be proven, can it be measured. Proven, No, measured, not sure, but I know it when I see it. Certainly cannot be measured in stats, certainly not shooting % - I do think though it is measured in the most important (and really) only stat that matters. Winning. And that was my point, Tyler will help a team win. He won't be the best player on a winning team, but he'll be a major contributor.

I didn't watch Tyler in college so cannot comment there, but I do know his team won, I assume he was a major factor in them winning, but I don't know that.

And no, Tyler "playing hard" doesn't give him a pass to not improve his game, nor does it mean we can overlook his weaknesses, nor does it mean we should overlook his strengths.

I will say his shooting % last season means little to me. lets see what he does after a full training camp, full preseason and a full season. If can make it through all that and play 70 games or so and still is shooting 36% or 42%, then we can discuss that in a negative light

Fair enough.

KennerLeaguer
09-21-2010, 01:50 PM
LOL, did Tyler date his sister or something?? :hmm:

That would only be a clever response if I had a history of bashing Tyler. Since I don't I'm going to assume then you simply take any issue with someone who brings up a reasonable argument regarding a player's capabilities/results.

Putnam
09-21-2010, 02:50 PM
Golly.

All this fuss because KennerLeaguer wants Hansbrough to improve his scoring efficiency and says hustle alone doesn't justify minutes.

KennerLeaguer is right, and nothing he said amounts to hate against Tyler.

naptownmenace
09-21-2010, 03:06 PM
Oh, here we go. I got sick of the whole nonsense concerning "Tyler was the hardest working player I ever seen" when he was in college. I mean seriously can that even be measured? Can that be proven? My fave player of all time was Alonzo Mourning and he worked hard not only on offense but on defense too. Did it his whole career, college and pro. Worked out like a fiend. Got his body in the best of condition. Played like a warrior even though he was undersized for his position almost every time he took the court. Was playing through kidney problems and came back from a medical condition that almost killed him, still giving it 100% once he got back on the court. And I don't think he ever got 1/5 of the credit for playing hard on the court that Tyler has gotten during his short career.

I agreed with the rest of your post and even some of the above. The part in bold was too hyperbolic for me to let slide.

Saying that a 2-time Defensive Player of the Year that was known for being one of the hardest working players on the court hasn't got 1/5 the credit that Tyler has was ridiculous. I think you're the first person to ever mention those 2 players in the same sentence and will probably be the last. :laugh:

MLB007
09-21-2010, 05:12 PM
That would only be a clever response if I had a history of bashing Tyler. Since I don't I'm going to assume then you simply take any issue with someone who brings up a reasonable argument regarding a player's capabilities/results.

No actually it was just a clever response if you have a sense of humor. :D

BlueNGold
09-21-2010, 06:04 PM
Yes... We've all known people who "lose their spark", which implies that that inner energy and drive is something that can go away (I think we're talking about the same thing...). Doesn't that also mean that it's an ability that you can acquire - since you can lose it, can't you also gain it, develop it, increase it, like footwork? Maybe.

I'd only add to what you say that Tyler has other abilities as well, which he has certainly developed. I don't know how easy it is to develop good feel for the game (I think that takes practice, too, plus maybe something else), but he's got that as well.

It's the combination of the motor, the skills, and the feel for the game that makes me think that he could be special.

______________

Agreed. This all reminds me of the low T commercials...;)

Seriously though, I think I need to clarify or correct something. I don't know if "effort" is the proper term for it. A better term might be energy because I believe it is something physiological. I truly believe we are talking about something genetic. As for learning whatever it is, I think there are limitations. We are all made differently and some of us simply will never have tremendous speed, intelligence or humor...or energy. These are gifts and I think Tyler has an uncommon gift. It's more than simple basketball skills or fundamentals. More than physical strength. Name it whatever you want to. Foster has the same thing. So did Rodman. Some people cannot possibly attain that level of X. Maybe this is why I think effort might not be the best word for it...

Sookie
09-21-2010, 06:48 PM
Agreed. This all reminds me of the low T commercials...;)

Seriously though, I think I need to clarify or correct something. I don't know if "effort" is the proper term for it. A better term might be energy because I believe it is something physiological. I truly believe we are talking about something genetic. As for learning whatever it is, I think there are limitations. We are all made differently and some of us simply will never have tremendous speed, intelligence or humor...or energy. These are gifts and I think Tyler has an uncommon gift. It's more than simple basketball skills or fundamentals. More than physical strength. Name it whatever you want to. Foster has the same thing. So did Rodman. Some people cannot possibly attain that level of X. Maybe this is why I think effort might not be the best word for it...


You could go with endurance as well. People have to be able to go all out all the time in order to do it.

I agree with those that think it's a talent and has it's own value. I think in Tyler's case, yea he needs to be more efficient..although I really don't mind if he's one of those that
*shoots* *gets blocked* *grabs rebound* *shoots* *gets blocked* *grabs rebound* *Scores* Types of players..in fact I find those kind amusing. :P But regardless, he's ..excitable..and I think he had the typical "rookie energy" and that contributed to his poor shooting. And he never got the chance to learn how to adjust. So as much as the 36% was pretty bad, I think he'll pretty easily be able to work himself up to "pretty darn efficient" and the rest of his game, such as the high intesnity/energy/endurance ect.. will be seen as a really valuable asset.

SMosley21
09-21-2010, 07:11 PM
I can't wait for next week!!! I've got a sneaking suspicion that the doctors are going to clear Tyler for full contact before camp starts.

Kemo
09-21-2010, 08:23 PM
Some people cannot possibly attain that level of X. Maybe this is why I think effort might not be the best word for it...


Ya,I most DEFINITELY see Tyler as that "X-Factor" type of player on a team ..

Hicks
09-21-2010, 08:36 PM
I guess we'll find out if he's officially "back" tomorrow.

Anthem
09-21-2010, 11:05 PM
Why am I the topic of conversation here?
Blame your fellow admin, not me. :angel:

I'm just swinging at whatever gets lobbed over the plate.

MagicRat
09-21-2010, 11:28 PM
And I think we can have a decent discussion about Tyler without coming close to making him into some mythological figure.

It's a good thing you're not at my house for bedtime stories........

http://chaos.able-towers.com/~magicrat/TylerB/index.htm (http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/TylerB/index.htm)

15th parallel
09-22-2010, 12:15 AM
It's a good thing you're not at my house for bedtime stories........

http://chaos.able-towers.com/~magicrat/TylerB/index.htm (http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/TylerB/index.htm)

:D

imawhat
09-22-2010, 01:41 AM
LOL at the paid advertisement :laugh:.

Now we need Dahntay to reply "shut up tyler. U know u don't lift. lol"

KennerLeaguer
09-22-2010, 02:25 AM
I agreed with the rest of your post and even some of the above. The part in bold was too hyperbolic for me to let slide.

Saying that a 2-time Defensive Player of the Year that was known for being one of the hardest working players on the court hasn't got 1/5 the credit that Tyler has was ridiculous. I think you're the first person to ever mention those 2 players in the same sentence and will probably be the last. :laugh:

Alright this will hopefully be my last point for this discussion because my comments appeared to taken the thread off track.

To clarify....if I'm including Tyler's college and pro career with Zo's college and pro career, I truly must say I think Tyler was referenced to being "hard working" more than Zo. I'm serious. During Tyler's UNC run when his team was on national TV (which was about every game) Tyler was described as being a hard worker it would seem about five times a contest. It was overkill. Alonzo from my recollection never got that type of treatment. Begrudging praise for Zo really started to come during his second run with the Heat after he came back from his kidney problems. But short memories may be responsible for people forgetting that Mourning was not a media darling. For awhile Mourning was a bit standoffish with the media. As a result I think the media had a hard time warming up to him. Anyway during his prime Mourning was often referred to as being kind of prickly. He was described as tough, aggressive, volatile, physical, bad tempered, etc. But the words "hard working" was not the common description the media used. Not in college nor the pros. Not like it has been for Tyler.

In the end it matters very little. But many a college basketball fan got sick of all the Tyler stuff in regards to his hard work. There were guys all across the country likley working as hard if not harder than him but they had the misfortune of not playing for ESPN darlings Duke or UNC. This is not to say Tyler did not bust his tail or that he wasn't a fantatsic player in college. It was just that the hyperbole got too much. It was the basketball equivalent of Tebow worship. As a result some of us (that includes me obviously) can get a little irked by his being characterized like this again as a pro even though he has only played a couple of dozen games.

KennerLeaguer
09-22-2010, 02:26 AM
Golly.

All this fuss because KennerLeaguer wants Hansbrough to improve his scoring efficiency and says hustle alone doesn't justify minutes.



Thanks, dude.

judicata
09-22-2010, 05:09 AM
Alright this will hopefully be my last point for this discussion because my comments appeared to taken the thread off track.

To clarify....if I'm including Tyler's college and pro career with Zo's college and pro career, I truly must say I think Tyler was referenced to being "hard working" more than Zo. I'm serious. During Tyler's UNC run when his team was on national TV (which was about every game) Tyler was described as being a hard worker it would seem about five times a contest. It was overkill. Alonzo from my recollection never got that type of treatment. Begrudging praise for Zo really started to come during his second run with the Heat after he came back from his kidney problems. But short memories may be responsible for people forgetting that Mourning was not a media darling. For awhile Mourning was a bit standoffish with the media. As a result I think the media had a hard time warming up to him. Anyway during his prime Mourning was often referred to as being kind of prickly. He was described as tough, aggressive, volatile, physical, bad tempered, etc. But the words "hard working" was not the common description the media used. Not in college nor the pros. Not like it has been for Tyler.

In the end it matters very little. But many a college basketball fan got sick of all the Tyler stuff in regards to his hard work. There were guys all across the country likley working as hard if not harder than him but they had the misfortune of not playing for ESPN darlings Duke or UNC. This is not to say Tyler did not bust his tail or that he wasn't a fantatsic player in college. It was just that the hyperbole got too much. It was the basketball equivalent of Tebow worship. As a result some of us (that includes me obviously) can get a little irked by his being characterized like this again as a pro even though he has only played a couple of dozen games.

I watched about one hundred college hoops games where Tyler beat his man down both ends of the floor pretty much every possession. I saw a couple of NBA games like that too. That's good enough for me to call the man hard working.

Guys like Tebow and Hansbrough irk people (like you obviously) because they beat the snot out of your teams and fail to look pretty while doing it. I'm pretty sure Tebow and Hans don't give a deuce about all the people who try to marginalize their quantifiable (i.e. rings) success by pointing out that they don't have the athletic gifts of other guys with empty mantles. After all, that is precisely why the talking heads call them hard working. Because they beat the pretty boys with the 50" vertical and the entourage.

docpaul
09-22-2010, 08:33 AM
Alright this will hopefully be my last point for this discussion because my comments appeared to taken the thread off track.

To clarify....if I'm including Tyler's college and pro career with Zo's college and pro career, I truly must say I think Tyler was referenced to being "hard working" more than Zo. I'm serious. During Tyler's UNC run when his team was on national TV (which was about every game) Tyler was described as being a hard worker it would seem about five times a contest. It was overkill. Alonzo from my recollection never got that type of treatment. Begrudging praise for Zo really started to come during his second run with the Heat after he came back from his kidney problems. But short memories may be responsible for people forgetting that Mourning was not a media darling. For awhile Mourning was a bit standoffish with the media. As a result I think the media had a hard time warming up to him. Anyway during his prime Mourning was often referred to as being kind of prickly. He was described as tough, aggressive, volatile, physical, bad tempered, etc. But the words "hard working" was not the common description the media used. Not in college nor the pros. Not like it has been for Tyler.

In the end it matters very little. But many a college basketball fan got sick of all the Tyler stuff in regards to his hard work. There were guys all across the country likley working as hard if not harder than him but they had the misfortune of not playing for ESPN darlings Duke or UNC. This is not to say Tyler did not bust his tail or that he wasn't a fantatsic player in college. It was just that the hyperbole got too much. It was the basketball equivalent of Tebow worship. As a result some of us (that includes me obviously) can get a little irked by his being characterized like this again as a pro even though he has only played a couple of dozen games.

While I agree that hyperbole creates all sorts of perception problems out in the world, my take on the press' infatuation with Tyler mostly related to how the objective data around his performance didn't match up to what one would normally expect given his physical or biologic makeup. He was never one that played with a deep amount of finesse, yet he kept winning and succeeding. Have you ever seen this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_Hansbrough#Career_Highs

The press and the public needed an explanation for why he broke the curve and they ultimately got behind the idea that he was a "hard worker".

My guess is that if he hadn't been such a record breaker/setter, that the talk of his hard work would have not been as fervent.

Can you come up with a better explanation?

Unclebuck
09-22-2010, 09:11 AM
It's a good thing you're not at my house for bedtime stories........

http://chaos.able-towers.com/~magicrat/TylerB/index.htm (http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/TylerB/index.htm)

That is great, liked page #4 the best

Doddage
09-22-2010, 10:49 AM
It's a good thing you're not at my house for bedtime stories........

http://chaos.able-towers.com/~magicrat/TylerB/index.htm (http://chaos.able-towers.com/%7Emagicrat/TylerB/index.htm)
I was amused by Page 6 in which there's people holding a sign that looks like it says, "Bust." Very realistic. ;)

SMosley21
09-22-2010, 10:58 AM
I was amused by Page 6 in which there's people holding a sign that looks like it says, "Bust." Very realistic. ;)

Short-sighted much?

MLB007
09-22-2010, 11:04 AM
Golly.

All this fuss because KennerLeaguer wants Hansbrough to improve his scoring efficiency and says hustle alone doesn't justify minutes.

KennerLeaguer is right, and nothing he said amounts to hate against Tyler.

all this fuss?
And the kid DID miss training camp and preseason due to his shin injury.
I think a lot of people here are savvy enough to realize that would greatly affect his getting into the flow of the game with his teammates.
Should be pretty easy to increase that a whole bunch. ;)

MLB007
09-22-2010, 11:08 AM
Alright this will hopefully be my last point for this discussion because my comments appeared to taken the thread off track.

To clarify....if I'm including Tyler's college and pro career with Zo's college and pro career, I truly must say I think Tyler was referenced to being "hard working" more than Zo. I'm serious. During Tyler's UNC run when his team was on national TV (which was about every game) Tyler was described as being a hard worker it would seem about five times a contest. It was overkill. Alonzo from my recollection never got that type of treatment. Begrudging praise for Zo really started to come during his second run with the Heat after he came back from his kidney problems. But short memories may be responsible for people forgetting that Mourning was not a media darling. For awhile Mourning was a bit standoffish with the media. As a result I think the media had a hard time warming up to him. Anyway during his prime Mourning was often referred to as being kind of prickly. He was described as tough, aggressive, volatile, physical, bad tempered, etc. But the words "hard working" was not the common description the media used. Not in college nor the pros. Not like it has been for Tyler.

In the end it matters very little. But many a college basketball fan got sick of all the Tyler stuff in regards to his hard work. There were guys all across the country likley working as hard if not harder than him but they had the misfortune of not playing for ESPN darlings Duke or UNC. This is not to say Tyler did not bust his tail or that he wasn't a fantatsic player in college. It was just that the hyperbole got too much. It was the basketball equivalent of Tebow worship. As a result some of us (that includes me obviously) can get a little irked by his being characterized like this again as a pro even though he has only played a couple of dozen games.


I'm in the midwest and don't pay much attention to the east coast stuff so I never saw much of anything about the kid till we drafted him.
Everything I say is in regards what I've seen since he's been here.

imawhat
09-22-2010, 11:08 AM
http://www.shacknews.com/extras/faylor/haters-gonna-hate.gif

Doddage
09-22-2010, 11:18 AM
Short-sighted much?
Saying that it's realistic to depict people labeling Tyler a bust is short-sighted? Okay...