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Basketball Fan
09-10-2010, 04:00 PM
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-heat/sfl-miami-heat-pat-riley-s091010,0,6357173.story


Miami Heat President Pat Riley broke a two-month silence Friday by wondering why so many around the NBA could not hold their tongues when it came to his team's July signings of LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh.

In his first expansive comments since skimming off the top of this offseason's free-agent class, Riley hit back at those who took shots at the decision by the three All-Stars to join forces in South Florida.

Riley was particularly animated in discussing the ongoing disparagement of the moves by TNT analyst Charles Barkley, the Hall of Fame forward.

"Charles Barkley, to me, went way over the top," Riley said. "I think Charles is probably the only guy in the league that can get away with what he gets away with.

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"Calling these guys a bunch of punks is a personal attack. LeBron isn't that. Dwyane is not, and neither is Chris."

Riley also took umbrage with comments emanating from Orlando, namely from Magic General Manager Otis Smith and Magic coach Stan Van Gundy, the former Heat coach and long-time Riley bench assistant.

"Stan's out there making comments about Chris Bosh being a lap dog to Dwyane Wade," Riley said. "I don't know what happened to some of these guys along the way."

Smith had spoken about how the "great ones" do it on their own and "usually stay in one location."

"I thought that was an absolutely stupid remark," Riley said. "He never made any kind of comment like that when he signed Rashard Lewis."

As for the multiple-championship expectations expressed by his three $100 million-plus signees, Riley said, "I don't think there's anything wrong in having the great anticipation. And I think that's one of the keys to developing tremendous enthusiasm.

"The scarlet letter has been placed on their back for some reason. These guys are going to have to develop a resolve second to none maybe in the history of the NBA."

With training camp to open Sept. 28, Riley said actions are about to take the place of words.

"Now we've got to go out on the court and prove it," he said. "I don't look back in regret at what anybody says about us."

During the phone conversation, Riley grew animated at times about the criticism leveled against the approach of both the Heat and of the players it signed.

"I think all these people should get a life. Most of it has been silly, absolutely silly," he said of the media second-guessing.

But what bothered him most were not bloggers or commentators, but rather those who work with the league.

"I take a little bit of umbrage from some of the things that came from people in our game," he said.

Riley said he was pleased with how reserved James, Bosh and Wade have been in response.

"In the end," he said, "they're the ones, all three of them, that showed a real world-class personality.

"They took the hit, and now they're ready to compete."

Unclebuck
09-10-2010, 04:07 PM
I won't be a Heat fan, but I am anxious to watch them play and see how they do this season.

Los Angeles
09-10-2010, 04:27 PM
I won't be a Heat fan, but I am anxious to watch them play and see how they do this season.

I'm anxious to watch them fail. I WANT them to fail. I will gain tremendous joy from each and every one of their losses.

90'sNBARocked
09-10-2010, 05:00 PM
I'm anxious to watch them fail. I WANT them to fail. I will gain tremendous joy from each and every one of their losses.

Ditto man

Riley can "Jazz it up" all he wants but the bottom line is LeBron will never again enter a conversation that starts with MJ, Kobe, Bird, and Magic


That life is over

and get agrip Pat!! The only reason your not btching and moaning is because YOU got the players, otherwise you would be crying like you used to do at the ref's

Bball
09-10-2010, 05:13 PM
I'm anxious to watch them fail. I WANT them to fail. I will gain tremendous joy from each and every one of their losses.

I have no problem seeing them fail... and I'd find it funny. But OTOH, if it works it won't **** me off or anything. Collectively, they all saw an opportunity and took it. If it works, more power to them. If it fails then I'm sure there will be plenty of irony, bickering, second guessing, etc to keep us all entertained. And if it fails it isn't like a political failure that hurts us all to some degree. Even individually, they'll all have their wallets to help them sooth the pain of the plan failing (if it does in fact fail).

Bball
09-10-2010, 05:14 PM
Ditto man

Riley can "Jazz it up" all he wants but the bottom line is LeBron will never again enter a conversation that starts with MJ, Kobe, Bird, and Magic




I think it's premature to say that. It's certainly a possibility, but far from predestined...

90'sNBARocked
09-10-2010, 05:20 PM
I think it's premature to say that. It's certainly a possibility, but far from predestined...

The reason I say that is MJ, Kobe, Bird, Magic stayed with their teams and built around them. I think even if they win a championship it will always be remembered that Lebron had to team up with another 2 all-stars to win his chmpionship

Just my opinion, but im sure shared by others

Deadshot
09-10-2010, 05:30 PM
The reason I say that is MJ, Kobe, Bird, Magic stayed with their teams and built around them. I think even if they win a championship it will always be remembered that Lebron had to team up with another 2 all-stars to win his chmpionship

Just my opinion, but im sure shared by others

And I honestly don't see him ever matching Jordan's 6 rings, Kobe's 5 rings, or Bird's 3. While they seem to have the talent to do so, I still wonder if this Miami team will even end up winning one. Its too bad ORL didn't get CP3 - MIA might not have even been the best TEAM in Florida (although we would have never got DC2 then which I am extremely excited about).

rexnom
09-10-2010, 05:54 PM
Umbrage.

dannygranger
09-10-2010, 06:07 PM
I want the Pacers to win it all, but if not the Pacers than I want the Heat to do it. Too many haters hating on how Lebron handled changing teams, hating on three great players should never be on the same team. They have pretty much everybody hating on them unless your a Heat fan. Anybody can be a couch critique, but to go out and do what these guys do every night is a different story.

Young
09-10-2010, 06:37 PM
I want the Pacers to win it all, but if not the Pacers than I want the Heat to do it. Too many haters hating on how Lebron handled changing teams, hating on three great players should never be on the same team. They have pretty much everybody hating on them unless your a Heat fan. Anybody can be a couch critique, but to go out and do what these guys do every night is a different story.

I have no problem with Lebron, Bosh, and Wade deciding to play on the same team. Especially when you look at the lack of progress Cleveland and Toronto have made to build a quality team around Lebron and Bosh.

However I hope the Heat fail big time. Great players can play on the same team although I think it is new for it to come together the way it has. I don't have any respect for Lebron for the how he handled the situation and I don't understand how anyone can. The whole tv special thing was childish and a major turn off. Especially when he is all this talk about being a team player and he just cares about winning. He proved that to be somewhat wrong.

A team player doesn't have his own tv special to announce what team he has decided to sign with. It might not have been half as bad had at least Wade and Bosh been there with him although that still would have been bad. Lebron showed his true colors though with his handling of the situation.

Pacers#1Fan
09-10-2010, 07:02 PM
Confidence and narcissism are two completely different things and we saw which of those bleeds through Lebron's pours. No one likes a narcissist.

NapTonius Monk
09-10-2010, 07:27 PM
The reason I say that is MJ, Kobe, Bird, Magic stayed with their teams and built around them. I think even if they win a championship it will always be remembered that Lebron had to team up with another 2 all-stars to win his chmpionship

Just my opinion, but im sure shared by othersWell, Kobe kinda just did his at the beginning. His refusing to play for any team other than LA isn't totally out of the neighborhood of what Lebron did.

spazzxb
09-10-2010, 07:41 PM
Well, Kobe kinda just did his at the beginning. His refusing to play for any team other than LA isn't totally out of the neighborhood of what Lebron did.

that was more about media market. While it was still a douchebag move, it didn't have to do with the confidence of a teanager. it was more like what yi tried to do. Kobe did at least threaten to leave a couple years ago, before Gasol was giftwrapped to him.

d_c
09-10-2010, 07:52 PM
The reason I say that is MJ, Kobe, Bird, Magic stayed with their teams and built around them. I think even if they win a championship it will always be remembered that Lebron had to team up with another 2 all-stars to win his chmpionship

Just my opinion, but im sure shared by others

If Kobe, Bird, Magic or MJ played in some podunk city with Mo Williams as their best teammate, they would've bolted that place the first chance they got. It's not as if it's hard to show loyalty when you play with one or two teammates who are also on the 50 greatest player list.

Heck, you know how Kobe won his last two championships? By complaining to his management that his teammates weren't good enough and demanding out (something Lebron never did).

Don't forget what cordobes pointed out about Tim Duncan in 2000. Duncan was just a year removed from winning a championship with a first class organization. He VERY nearly bolted the Spurs to sign with Orlando. Why the heck did he even think about doing that? He thought deep and hard about it because of the prospect of playing with better teammates (Grant Hill before we knew how bad his ankle was). Sound familiar?

If Duncan played for a poorly run organization like the Cavs rather than a first class organization like the Spurs, you can bet he would've left for Orlando.

King Tuts Tomb
09-11-2010, 12:00 AM
Confidence and narcissism are two completely different things and we saw which of those bleeds through Lebron's pours. No one likes a narcissist.

What, specifically, did LeBron do to make him a narcissist?

Sookie
09-11-2010, 12:18 AM
I think Kobe and MJ had something Lebron didn't.

Someone that would tell them "no."

But it's also possible that Lebron doesn't want to be "the man" perhaps he wasn't ever gunning for best ever. Problem though, is we do know he was gunning for "most popular ever" and "richest athlete ever."

Kobe and MJ, they want to be considered the best ever. (Although, marketing was extremely important to both of them, don't get me wrong.)

I guess, at the end of the day, I can respect MJ and Kobe more for it.

Wage
09-11-2010, 01:39 AM
I'm just excited that people have a reason to discuss LeBron again. So much of this story has been left completely unmentioned.

BornReady
09-11-2010, 02:35 AM
What, specifically, did LeBron do to make him a narcissist?

Just about everything about Lebron screams narcissism I'd say. For starters, he crowned himself King James. Other things that come to mind include the way he carries himself pre-game (throw up dust even in away games in other team's arenas,) always doing something to keep the media attention on him, refusing to go to the Chicago Bulls because they refused to give him incentives (allowing his friends to get good seats to games etc) making excuses for his inadequacies, bad sportsmanship (especially in losses...Orlando comes to mind) and just his demeanor- even before he was drafted, he was already a huge star throughout Ohio and has never showed any humbleness. Since he was drafted, Cleveland fans IDOLIZED this clown (yes, they literally worshiped him, and it was a disgusting and pitiful sight, to say the least) and he ate it up eagerly and happily, which did absolutely nothing but fuel his ego even more. He's always acted as though he deserves all this.

King Tuts Tomb
09-11-2010, 03:30 AM
Let's break these down individually:


For starters, he crowned himself King James.

If I remember correctly, he was given the nickname by the media (Sports Illustrated? SLAM?). It's a pretty cool nickname, and in line with the comically regal and bombastic basketball nicknames over the years (Black Jesus, Larry Legend, Magic, Dr J, Admiral).


the way he carries himself pre-game (throw up dust even in away games in other team's arenas,)

This has always been one of his more popular quirks, only now that he's been vilified is this seen as a bad thing.


always doing something to keep the media attention on him

Has he gone overboard though? He seems no more overexposed than Peyton, Tiger (pre-scandal) or any other major athlete in his prime.


refusing to go to the Chicago Bulls because they refused to give him incentives (allowing his friends to get good seats to games etc)

I highly doubt this is the reason he didn't go to the Bulls.


making excuses for his inadequacies, bad sportsmanship (especially in losses...Orlando comes to mind)

This is human nature and hardly narcissistic. I doubt a human on earth hasn't made an excuse for their inadequacies. And it's hardly unique to LeBron in sports either. Read "The Jordan Rules" or Phil Jackson's Lakers diary or any other basketball tell-all.


his demeanor- even before he was drafted, he was already a huge star throughout Ohio and has never showed any humbleness.

He's never struck me as any more or less egocentric than the average professional athlete.


Cleveland fans IDOLIZED this clown (yes, they literally worshiped him, and it was a disgusting and pitiful sight, to say the least) and he ate it up eagerly and happily, which did absolutely nothing but fuel his ego even more.

I fail to see how this is LeBron's fault. A bunch of adults shouldn't be idolizing an 18 year old athlete, there's something wrong with that. This says more about the pathetic state of the American sports fan than it does about LeBron.

And an 18 year old eagerly and happily eating up attention, who could imagine?!


He's always acted as though he deserves all this.

He does deserve it. He's the best basketball player in the world. He's earned every cent and all the accolades he's gotten.

oz_pacer
09-11-2010, 03:54 AM
kobe had shaq and now gasol/odom/artest/bynum

MJ had scottie pippen/kukoc/rodman

magic had kareem/worthy

I dont see what the big deal is to be honest

Kemo
09-11-2010, 03:54 AM
Tut , you have sensible excuses for each point.. but the thing is , you put them all together and it shows a pattern .

yea LeBron shows casebook signs of being a narcissist...
I believe I have heard him at least a handful of times refer to himself in the 3rd person ..

King Tuts Tomb
09-11-2010, 04:55 AM
Tut , you have sensible excuses for each point.. but the thing is , you put them all together and it shows a pattern .

yea LeBron shows casebook signs of being a narcissist...
I believe I have heard him at least a handful of times refer to himself in the 3rd person ..

LeBron shows casebook signs of being a professional athlete. He's always in the spotlight because people put the spotlight on him. because he's extremely talented/interesting.

Nothing about his behavior is out of the norm of any other superstars of the last thirty years. What's changed is the increasingly childlike ignorance of the common sports fan.

And I never got the big deal about speaking in third person. So he substitutes his own name instead of a pronoun. What a catastrophe!

spreedom
09-11-2010, 09:16 AM
STFU Riley...

KennerLeaguer
09-11-2010, 10:28 AM
I agree with Riley. And if it comes down between the Heat and the Lakers I'm definitely siding with Miami.

KennerLeaguer
09-11-2010, 10:46 AM
Ditto man

Riley can "Jazz it up" all he wants but the bottom line is LeBron will never again enter a conversation that starts with MJ, Kobe, Bird, and Magic




Why is Kobe even in that conversation? The first three championships he won he was CLEARLY the second-billing star behind Shaq who deservedly won the MVP of all those Finals . And in Kobe's second post-Shaq championship I'm almost inclined to say Gasol was the MVP. But even if I concede and say it was definitely Kobe he loses some luster for going like 6 of 24 in game 7. I just can't imagine the other guys you listed stinking up the joint that badly in such a crucial game.


And let me go further by saying f Kobe had not been paired with Shaq he would have gone ringless for a as long as LeBron has been. Don't believe me? Well, when Shaq left the Lakers Kobe was clearly a much better player than he had been his first five or six years in the NBA. Nonetheless look at Kobe's track record those first three years after Shaq. In the first season he couldn't get his Lakers into the playoffs. In years two and three his Lakers lost in the first round both times. So what happened? Kobe whined and whined and took shots at the Lakers organization. He asked to be traded because he "wanted to win" and it was clear he could not do jack on his own. So the Lakers ended up robbing Memphis and got Gasol to play alongside Kobe. Immediately the Lakers are contenders again. If Gasol had not been picked up by L.A. there's a great chance that Kobe would be in Chicago or some other major city. So lets stop the revisionism. I put Bird, Magic and Jordan on a special pedestal. I don't put LeBron there and I don't put Kobe there either. Fact is Kobe played with a Shaq still in his prime and Gasol in his prime. LeBron has never had teammates that good. He also has not had such clutch professionals alongside him like Robert Horry and Derek Fisher, guys capable of winning games for their teams in the postseason with last second heroics.

Last of all this whole business about these other stars not leaving their teams is nonsense CONSIDERING the players people keep using as examples. Bird was on a STACKED Boston Celtics team for most of his career. At the time it was the greatest NBA franchise. Why would he leave? Ditto for Magic. Now if people were saying the names of Malone, Stocton, Ewing, Reggie Miller, etc as guys who hung around a franchise for over a dozen years as they pursued championships then the criticism of LeBron would be more justified.

And what more glamorous NBA franchise could Magic or Kobe go to if they had left the Lakers? The only guy who I will begrudgingly give props to is Jordan because his teams weren't as talented as those Celtics or Lakers squads. But at least Chicago is a top notch city in terms of media coverage, opportunities and economic strength. Cleveland though has never been any of those things.

spreedom
09-11-2010, 11:37 AM
Cheering for Miami next season will be like cheering for the house in a casino.

Pig Nash
09-11-2010, 11:50 AM
"I thought that was an absolutely stupid remark," Riley said. "He never made any kind of comment like that when he signed Rashard Lewis."

:laugh:

IndyJones
09-11-2010, 11:56 AM
Why is Kobe even in that conversation? The first three championships he won he was CLEARLY the second-billing star behind Shaq who deservedly won the MVP of all those Finals.

Whenever someone says something like this I always think back to the Finals between the Lakers and Pacers. I forget which game it was but Shaq was fouled out and the game went to OT. I remember thinking "oh man they dont have Shaq in there we got this!" Then Kobe takes over and single handedly dominated the OT.

Hicks
09-11-2010, 12:25 PM
Human nature is no excuse for LeBron's poor behavior after the Orlando series, or how he quit on his own team last year versus Boston. That's a bad attitude.

Basketball Fan
09-11-2010, 01:15 PM
Why is Kobe even in that conversation? The first three championships he won he was CLEARLY the second-billing star behind Shaq who deservedly won the MVP of all those Finals . And in Kobe's second post-Shaq championship I'm almost inclined to say Gasol was the MVP. But even if I concede and say it was definitely Kobe he loses some luster for going like 6 of 24 in game 7. I just can't imagine the other guys you listed stinking up the joint that badly in such a crucial game.


And let me go further by saying f Kobe had not been paired with Shaq he would have gone ringless for a as long as LeBron has been. Don't believe me? Well, when Shaq left the Lakers Kobe was clearly a much better player than he had been his first five or six years in the NBA. Nonetheless look at Kobe's track record those first three years after Shaq. In the first season he couldn't get his Lakers into the playoffs. In years two and three his Lakers lost in the first round both times. So what happened? Kobe whined and whined and took shots at the Lakers organization. He asked to be traded because he "wanted to win" and it was clear he could not do jack on his own. So the Lakers ended up robbing Memphis and got Gasol to play alongside Kobe. Immediately the Lakers are contenders again. If Gasol had not been picked up by L.A. there's a great chance that Kobe would be in Chicago or some other major city. So lets stop the revisionism. I put Bird, Magic and Jordan on a special pedestal. I don't put LeBron there and I don't put Kobe there either. Fact is Kobe played with a Shaq still in his prime and Gasol in his prime. LeBron has never had teammates that good. He also has not had such clutch professionals alongside him like Robert Horry and Derek Fisher, guys capable of winning games for their teams in the postseason with last second heroics.

Last of all this whole business about these other stars not leaving their teams is nonsense CONSIDERING the players people keep using as examples. Bird was on a STACKED Boston Celtics team for most of his career. At the time it was the greatest NBA franchise. Why would he leave? Ditto for Magic. Now if people were saying the names of Malone, Stocton, Ewing, Reggie Miller, etc as guys who hung around a franchise for over a dozen years as they pursued championships then the criticism of LeBron would be more justified.

And what more glamorous NBA franchise could Magic or Kobe go to if they had left the Lakers? The only guy who I will begrudgingly give props to is Jordan because his teams weren't as talented as those Celtics or Lakers squads. But at least Chicago is a top notch city in terms of media coverage, opportunities and economic strength. Cleveland though has never been any of those things.



Probably because you'd be hard pressed to find another player after the Jordan era that has accomplished as much (except maybe Duncan who seems to be forgotten by so many) And Michael Jordan when 6-19 in the closeout game against the Sonics for his 5th ring but nobody seems to remember that.


Nobody wins on their own so I never begrudged LeBron for wanting to join a team with another Superstar and Bosh(he's not a superstar!) I begrudge him for that crap decision special however...

Apparently Kobe is the only superstar in NBA history that's wrong to actually play alongside another star. Nobody ragged Jordan for playing with Pippen and Rodman, Bird for Parrish/McHale, Magic for Worthy/Kareem.


I do find it interesting you how you mention Gasol being the main reason the Lakers have rings the last two seasons and while he has helped Kobe many seem to have forgotten how he never won a playoff game let alone a series before joining the Lakers. For all the criticism Dirk receives, he wasn't that bad.

Basketball Fan
09-11-2010, 01:16 PM
Whenever someone says something like this I always think back to the Finals between the Lakers and Pacers. I forget which game it was but Shaq was fouled out and the game went to OT. I remember thinking "oh man they dont have Shaq in there we got this!" Then Kobe takes over and single handedly dominated the OT.

It was Game 4 that was when he arrived and it really became Shaq and Kobe on the court

King Tuts Tomb
09-11-2010, 03:09 PM
Human nature is no excuse for LeBron's poor behavior after the Orlando series, or how he quit on his own team last year versus Boston. That's a bad attitude.

It's good to hear that you've never failed at anything in your life. But those of us who haven't achieved total perfection can sympathize with LeBron.

His poor behavior in Orlando consisted of walking off the court before he shook hands with the other team. At the worst it's rude, but hardly an indictment on his character. That whole situation was mountains out of molehills.

As for the Boston series, there's been rumors of some possible personal problems. I definitely can't judge because I know I've had personal problems damage my work before. I'd assume we all have.

It sounds like I'm making excuses for LeBron but I'm not. He lost those series. But I don't think those are capital crimes and worthy of such scorn. They're borne of frustration, not ego. And frustration is definitely a part of human nature.

BornReady
09-11-2010, 04:20 PM
It's good to hear that you've never failed at anything in your life. But those of us who haven't achieved total perfection can sympathize with LeBron.

His poor behavior in Orlando consisted of walking off the court before he shook hands with the other team. At the worst it's rude, but hardly an indictment on his character. That whole situation was mountains out of molehills.

As for the Boston series, there's been rumors of some possible personal problems. I definitely can't judge because I know I've had personal problems damage my work before. I'd assume we all have.

It sounds like I'm making excuses for LeBron but I'm not. He lost those series. But I don't think those are capital crimes and worthy of such scorn. They're borne of frustration, not ego. And frustration is definitely a part of human nature.

I don't see anywhere where Hicks even remotely suggested that he's perfect...

I think your rudeness says a lot about your character.

Personal problems? Every time Lebron missed a shot, he pointed to his elbow. PS you don't actually believe that West boned his mom, do you?

HeliumFear
09-11-2010, 04:44 PM
The reason I say that is MJ, Kobe, Bird, Magic stayed with their teams and built around them. I think even if they win a championship it will always be remembered that Lebron had to team up with another 2 all-stars to win his chmpionship

Just my opinion, but im sure shared by others


What's worse is that he had 3 All-Stars in Cleveland and couldn't bring home a title. Overrated.

Magic P
09-11-2010, 05:03 PM
I have no problem with Lebron, Bosh, and Wade deciding to play on the same team. Especially when you look at the lack of progress Cleveland and Toronto have made to build a quality team around Lebron and Bosh.

However I hope the Heat fail big time. Great players can play on the same team although I think it is new for it to come together the way it has. I don't have any respect for Lebron for the how he handled the situation and I don't understand how anyone can. The whole tv special thing was childish and a major turn off. Especially when he is all this talk about being a team player and he just cares about winning. He proved that to be somewhat wrong.

A team player doesn't have his own tv special to announce what team he has decided to sign with. It might not have been half as bad had at least Wade and Bosh been there with him although that still would have been bad. Lebron showed his true colors though with his handling of the situation.

When you're a free agent you don't have to be a team player.

King Tuts Tomb
09-11-2010, 05:17 PM
I don't see anywhere where Hicks even remotely suggested that he's perfect...

I think your rudeness says a lot about your character.

Personal problems? Every time Lebron missed a shot, he pointed to his elbow. PS you don't actually believe that West boned his mom, do you?

His point was that LeBron's behavior was excessively egocentric and self-centered. I think it's foolish to take the moral high ground and pass judgment on others for entirely human failings.

Call me rude if you want*, but the moralizing by some people on this board is intolerable. God forbid athletes act like regular people and have the same faults that we all do, albeit magnified because of their position. It doesn't make them narcissists, it makes them human.

*And reading my post again, it does come off as needlessly snarky. No offense was meant to Hicks.

BornReady
09-11-2010, 05:52 PM
His point was that LeBron's behavior was excessively egocentric and self-centered. I think it's foolish to take the moral high ground and pass judgment on others for entirely human failings.

Call me rude if you want*, but the moralizing by some people on this board is intolerable. God forbid athletes act like regular people and have the same faults that we all do, albeit magnified because of their position. It doesn't make them narcissists, it makes them human.

*And reading my post again, it does come off as needlessly snarky. No offense was meant to Hicks.

lol well it wasn't with response to you personally, but what you said about Lebron as a rude act.

Hicks
09-11-2010, 11:10 PM
It's good to hear that you've never failed at anything in your life. But those of us who haven't achieved total perfection can sympathize with LeBron.

:laugh: That's what you got from what I said? Come on.

Everyone loses sometimes. We don't all quit on our team, we don't all refuse to show respect to our opponents.


His poor behavior in Orlando consisted of walking off the court before he shook hands with the other team. At the worst it's rude, but hardly an indictment on his character. That whole situation was mountains out of molehills.

Wait, being rude doesn't say anything about your character? I disagree.


As for the Boston series, there's been rumors of some possible personal problems. I definitely can't judge because I know I've had personal problems damage my work before. I'd assume we all have.

So he gets a pass based on a rumor?

But I'll play. I assume you're referring to the rumors of his mother and Delonte West? I can absolutely understand that causing him to be distracted and pissed off, but you're telling me a basketball player can't focus on playing a basketball game for 2-3 hours of his day?

Besides, Kobe Bryant had a much larger distraction back in 2003-2004, but basketball was his escape. He didn't let it cause him to play the way LeBron played in that series.

If anything, getting to play a game should be a distraction FROM your problems.

I could understand in the event of something tragic happening (like a death in the immediate family or a 9/11 type of event), but this wasn't that terrible, and are we assuming this drama happened the day of one of the games or something like that? Because otherwise, surely he had time to digest what was going on (if even a little) and would have had time to calm down enough to focus on the game for a couple of hours, right?

Look, I'm not saying there's no way you can be right, I'm just saying I don't automatically buy it as some kind of 'get of jail free card' for his play in that series.


It sounds like I'm making excuses for LeBron but I'm not. He lost those series. But I don't think those are capital crimes and worthy of such scorn. They're borne of frustration, not ego. And frustration is definitely a part of human nature.

I think it's frustration and ego, both.

I don't think what he did resembles capital crimes, and I don't spend much or any time really 'scorning' him for it beyond this kind of a conversation.

But when it comes up, and I'm looking at it within the context of NBA basketball and its 'universe' versus the rest of reality and its cirmes, I do criticize him because I think he deserves it for what he did.

Again, that doesn't make him a horrible person. It just means he occasionally screws up, and I think it does have to do with his ego, and I think it's fair to say as much.

Hicks
09-11-2010, 11:17 PM
His point was that LeBron's behavior was excessively egocentric and self-centered. I think it's foolish to take the moral high ground and pass judgment on others for entirely human failings.

Well, in turn, I think this is a foolish take, for whatever it's worth. Every time a man screws up, apparently it's okay as long as we recognize it's due to him being a human being.

Call me rude if you want*, but the moralizing by some people on this board is intolerable. God forbid athletes act like regular people and have the same faults that we all do, albeit magnified because of their position. It doesn't make them narcissists, it makes them human.

*And reading my post again, it does come off as needlessly snarky. No offense was meant to Hicks.

No offense taken.

I don't understand how 'human failings' is a free pass to doing something wrong, though. Anything a man does wrong is due to human failings. He's still wrong to do it. And if you do something wrong, you're open to getting criticized for it.

King Tuts Tomb
09-12-2010, 12:17 AM
I don't understand how 'human failings' is a free pass to doing something wrong, though. Anything a man does wrong is due to human failings. He's still wrong to do it. And if you do something wrong, you're open to getting criticized for it.

Fair criticism is fine. He didn't win a championship and it's a legitimate blemish on his record. But the beating he's taken lately doesn't fall within the bounds of the regular sports talk.

The criticism of LeBron in these last few months far exceeds the norm for what he's done. There's been an element of perverse joy in knocking him down a peg, that borders on sadistic (and although you don't want it discussed, a racial element as well). Something about LeBron, his fame, his status, his wealth, has drawn out a lot of the ugliness and bitterness behind sports fans and the media.

And to be clear, I'm not accusing you of this. I'm speaking of the sports fans and the media on the whole.

Hicks
09-12-2010, 12:29 AM
Well, he's getting beaten in the press and in the court of public opinion, primarily, for the manner in which he left Cleveland (not to be confused with simply choosing to leave).

A secondary thing, which does not compare with the primary reason I already mentioned, is the fact that by joining Dwyane Wade in Miami he takes away any chance he had of being perceived as "the man" with regards to being the number one guy on a championship team. Some players would rather beat Wade than join him. For some sports fans, that's a big issue. I don't think there's a right or wrong conclusion to make on that; I think it's just personal opinion.

xBulletproof
09-12-2010, 12:41 AM
A secondary thing, which does not compare with the primary reason I already mentioned, is the fact that by joining Dwyane Wade in Miami he takes away any chance he had of being perceived as "the man" with regards to being the number one guy on a championship team.

I've heard plenty of people say this, and I don't get it. Was Jordan not "the man" because he had another top 50 player on his team in the history of the NBA? Of course not. The Heat haven't played a game and I believe Lebron will come out eventually on this team considered ..."the man", people just can't see it that way because Wade has been there for a while, and Lebron is the new guy. Lebron is the better player, and the better player eventually becomes the man more often than not.

Wade has delivered when he was "the man" in Miami, before Lebron and Bosh got there. However Pippen led the Bulls to 55 wins in his prime during the only year he had without Jordan. It's plausible he could have been the man on a title team too, had Jordan never come back. Yet it doesn't stop anyone from proclaiming Jordan is the #1 player in NBA history.

Just seems like faulty logic to me.

Kstat
09-12-2010, 12:43 AM
It isn't really plausible. He didn't get the Bulls past the 2nd round in 1994 or 1995, when Jordan was working his way back and it was still Pippen's team.

King Tuts Tomb
09-12-2010, 01:01 AM
Well, he's getting beaten in the press and in the court of public opinion, primarily, for the manner in which he left Cleveland (not to be confused with simply choosing to leave).

I don't think this is true. The level of rage and disgust was too extreme for this to be the only explanation. Grown men should not be frothing at the mouth because of a half hour infomercial about a basketball player changing teams. There was something else behind the outrage.


A secondary thing, which does not compare with the primary reason I already mentioned, is the fact that by joining Dwyane Wade in Miami he takes away any chance he had of being perceived as "the man" with regards to being the number one guy on a championship team. Some players would rather beat Wade than join him. For some sports fans, that's a big issue. I don't think there's a right or wrong conclusion to make on that; I think it's just personal opinion.

I disagree, but like you said it's personal opinion. I don't really care where people rate him as a player or anything like that. What drives me nuts is the narcissist/disgrace/liar/egomaniac label attached to him by many vocal members of the media and carried on by fans. It just doesn't square with the facts, and I hate what it says about the people associated with my favorite league.

xBulletproof
09-12-2010, 01:03 AM
It isn't really plausible. He didn't get the Bulls past the 2nd round in 1994 or 1995, when Jordan was working his way back and it was still Pippen's team.

Pippen had 1 year. No idea why being the man in one year and having a 55 win team means it's not plausible that in a different year with minor tweeks to the roster he couldn't have been the man on a championship team.

No clue how you consider it still Pippens team when Jordan came back. Jordan in the playoffs averaged 5 more shots per game than Pippen took in any one game. Jordan was taking 25 shots per game, and Pippen took 20 shots in a game ... once. Jordan played more minutes than did Pippen.

Pippen was 17 ppg, 8 rebs, 5 assists, 1 steal and 1 block. Jordan averaged 31 ppg, 6 rebs, 4 assists, 2 steals and 1 block in those playoffs on better shooting percentages than Pippen.

Statistically it sure looks like every other year they spent together, but somehow it was still Pippens team, eh? OK.

danman
09-12-2010, 02:14 AM
Fair criticism is fine. He didn't win a championship and it's a legitimate blemish on his record. But the beating he's taken lately doesn't fall within the bounds of the regular sports talk.

The criticism of LeBron in these last few months far exceeds the norm for what he's done. There's been an element of perverse joy in knocking him down a peg, that borders on sadistic (and although you don't want it discussed, a racial element as well). Something about LeBron, his fame, his status, his wealth, has drawn out a lot of the ugliness and bitterness behind sports fans and the media.

And to be clear, I'm not accusing you of this. I'm speaking of the sports fans and the media on the whole.

Eh, part of it was his special event on TV on "The Decision." Jilting a girlfriend is a defensible decision, putting the announcement in a video and sending it out on Facebook is not.

He's also made a lot of noise about turning himself into the premier worldwide marketing "brand" of an individual. Not as big of a deal, but this sort of thing makes it seem like basketball isn't his real focus.

As a person, as far as I can tell, he seems pretty likable. But he botched the PR badly these last few months. The sharks came out because there was blood in the water.

King Tuts Tomb
09-12-2010, 02:45 AM
Eh, part of it was his special event on TV on "The Decision." Jilting a girlfriend is a defensible decision, putting the announcement in a video and sending it out on Facebook is not.

He didn't jilt a girlfriend. He went to another basketball team when his contract ended. Fans turning a player into a romantic object is weird though, and strangely modern I think.


He's also made a lot of noise about turning himself into the premier worldwide marketing "brand" of an individual. Not as big of a deal, but this sort of thing makes it seem like basketball isn't his real focus.

Jordan was more of a global brand than LeBron will ever be. Did that hurt his basketball?


As a person, as far as I can tell, he seems pretty likable. But he botched the PR badly these last few months. The sharks came out because there was blood in the water.

So his primary mistake was in PR. That seems so superficial to complain about.

KennerLeaguer
09-12-2010, 08:29 AM
Whenever someone says something like this I always think back to the Finals between the Lakers and Pacers. I forget which game it was but Shaq was fouled out and the game went to OT. I remember thinking "oh man they dont have Shaq in there we got this!" Then Kobe takes over and single handedly dominated the OT.

And McHale had games in which he was the key to Boston's victories in the Finals rather than Bird, but nonetheless was there any doubt who the Celtics' best player was? You see I'm not saying Kobe wasn't any good back then; I'm saying Shaq was the most dominating player for the Lakers during those first three titles. He was the most consistent in his contributions and the guy defenses had the most difficult stopping. Kobe was a heck of a Robin but just a Robin nonetheless.

KennerLeaguer
09-12-2010, 08:45 AM
Probably because you'd be hard pressed to find another player after the Jordan era that has accomplished as much (except maybe Duncan who seems to be forgotten by so many) And Michael Jordan when 6-19 in the closeout game against the Sonics for his 5th ring but nobody seems to remember that.

Good point about MJ's last game against the Sonics. Still....it wasn't a win-or-go-home situation as game 7 that Kobe was in aaginst the Celtics.



Nobody wins on their own so I never begrudged LeBron for wanting to join a team with another Superstar and Bosh(he's not a superstar!) I begrudge him for that crap decision special however...


I agree. That's why I refused to watch the special or pay attention to all the hype leading up to it. I was also disappointed LeBron didn't choose Cleveland.


Apparently Kobe is the only superstar in NBA history that's wrong to actually play alongside another star. Nobody ragged Jordan for playing with Pippen and Rodman, Bird for Parrish/McHale, Magic for Worthy/Kareem.

Stop the hyperbole. My point about Kobe was that he was NOT the man on those first three championship teams. Shaq deservedly won MVP each time. Shaq was the force of nature that could not be stopped. Its tiring for people to resort to the whole MJ had Pippen stuff when comparing what Kobe had with Shaq. Pipper was NEVER the guy. Pippen in his prime was not the difference maker that Shaq was in his prime. So its ridiculous to compare what MJ had compared to what Kobe had at his side. And last time I checked MJ won all six Finals MVPs of the Finals his Bulls won. Kobe has won two of the Five his teams won. No comparison.



I do find it interesting you how you mention Gasol being the main reason the Lakers have rings the last two seasons and while he has helped Kobe many seem to have forgotten how he never won a playoff game let alone a series before joining the Lakers. For all the criticism Dirk receives, he wasn't that bad.

Gasol is the perfect second banana for Kobe. I seriously doubt Gasol could get a team to a conference finals on his own. That being said you can't ignore that Kobe's Lakers were either staying at home during the post season or losing repeatedly in the first round before Gasol came aboard. To be very successful in the post season you need that other stud player who can help make the difference. And that goes back to my argument that LeBron has never even played with player of Gasol's caliber. He certainly never played alongside a guy as good as the Shaq of the early 2000s.

KennerLeaguer
09-12-2010, 08:52 AM
Human nature is no excuse for LeBron's poor behavior after the Orlando series, or how he quit on his own team last year versus Boston. That's a bad attitude.

I can see where people are coming from with these particular complaints. But once more I must take a swing at the memory of the media and NBA fans. When folks praise Kobe in comparison they forget how in his third year-post Shaq Kobe dogged it in the last one or two games in the first round series against Phoenix. He barely looked to take a shot in the first half of one game and ended up looking very passive in the final two games. Some felt Kobe was trying to send a message. Even if that's so the conclusion was that he had bailed on his team and was ready to bail on the franchise too (unti the Lakers got Gasol). Kobe also wanted no part in congratulating the Suns at the end of that series. So why now is Kobe being used as a model of character, heart and professionalism? He was doing the same things as LeBron at a similiar age despite already having won three rings. That's my issue with the NBA media and NBA fans. They have such short memories. If people want to attack LeBron then go ahead; just don't use Kobe as an example of some ideal alternative.

Basketball Fan
09-12-2010, 10:59 AM
I can see where people are coming from with these particular complaints. But once more I must take a swing at the memory of the media and NBA fans. When folks praise Kobe in comparison they forget how in his third year-post Shaq Kobe dogged it in the last one or two games in the first round series against Phoenix. He barely looked to take a shot in the first half of one game and ended up looking very passive in the final two games. Some felt Kobe was trying to send a message. Even if that's so the conclusion was that he had bailed on his team and was ready to bail on the franchise too (unti the Lakers got Gasol). Kobe also wanted no part in congratulating the Suns at the end of that series. So why now is Kobe being used as a model of character, heart and professionalism? He was doing the same things as LeBron at a similiar age despite already having won three rings. That's my issue with the NBA media and NBA fans. They have such short memories. If people want to attack LeBron then go ahead; just don't use Kobe as an example of some ideal alternative.


FWIW I don't think Kobe or LeBron "dogged' it I never understood how in basketball or any sport that's placed on one player had the others made their shots and won the game would this really be a problem? No because they won that's what matters. Also never had an issue with the handshakes or lack there of. I don't care for such matters again the Decision special was the only thing about LeBron's FA that I disliked.


I don't see anyone really "praising" Kobe but even he didn't have a one hour special dumping his team on national TV all the while before letting them think they had a chance to retain him when in reality he was already going to leave. In that time the Cavs could've gotten a backup plan. Kobe is obviously no saint but he seems to have matured since then and unlike LeBron never left. Maybe LeBron will as well difference is he's going to another team as the second option to do so.

Like another poster said when it came to MJ/Kobe there was a limit to what management let them do. The Cavs never exercised such restraint because they figured well if we let LeBron do what he wants he'll stay.

Yeah they were clearly wrong.

cinotimz
09-12-2010, 11:08 AM
I'm anxious to watch them fail. I WANT them to fail. I will gain tremendous joy from each and every one of their losses.

If your joy is dependent on them losing, you might want to prepare for a serious lack of joy this upcoming season.

KennerLeaguer
09-12-2010, 02:05 PM
I don't see anyone really "praising" Kobe but even he didn't have a one hour special dumping his team on national TV all the while before letting them think they had a chance to retain him when in reality he was already going to leave.

True. But in the same token LeBron never went from high school to the NBA draft warning small market teams not to draft him. And LeBron was easily a bigger star coming out of high school than Kobe was when he left high school. Its because of stuff like that that prevents me from giving Kobe a pass. Both guys have done some questionable things in their careers; LeBron has simply done them more recently. That doesn't make Kobe a better professional than him.

Basketball Fan
09-12-2010, 06:31 PM
True. But in the same token LeBron never went from high school to the NBA draft warning small market teams not to draft him. And LeBron was easily a bigger star coming out of high school than Kobe was when he left high school. Its because of stuff like that that prevents me from giving Kobe a pass. Both guys have done some questionable things in their careers; LeBron has simply done them more recently. That doesn't make Kobe a better professional than him.

You know I can never understand how a 17 year old kid could have that much power especially when back then drafting a shooting guard out of high school was a controversial thing. Especially since many thought Kobe would fail in the pros he's surpassed all that's ever been expected of him. So really why would Charlotte care if he wanted to go elsewhere I mean Vlade Divac was a proven player at that point.

Besides I never had an issue with players dictating where they want to be drafted I mean when they're drafted rarely do any of them end up staying with the same franchise their entire career and its their career. None of us would care about these players unless they were on our team anyways.

danman
09-12-2010, 08:26 PM
He didn't jilt a girlfriend. He went to another basketball team when his contract ended. Fans turning a player into a romantic object is weird though, and strangely modern I think.

My but we're literal-minded. Okay, if the point was lost on you, there is a relationship between fans and a star player. It's rather important. Lebron chose to air an unprecedented TV special announcing that he was ending it.

There would have been a lot of attention on this in any event, but Lebron himself drove it into a frenzy. He chose to do so. If emotions ran extra high, he bears a great deal of the responsibility.


Jordan was more of a global brand than LeBron will ever be. Did that hurt his basketball?

Nope. But on the other hand, MJ didn't yap about his desire to be a brand. He talked basketball.


So his primary mistake was in PR. That seems so superficial to complain about.

Interesting. What seems superficial to me is to b1tch about mysterious reasons fans and media turned on Lebron, even pulling the race card out, without recognizing that Lebron himself brought on the firestorm. PR is part of a public figure's profession. If a politician or a celebrity or a "global brand" sports figure botches PR, shredding his relationship with his most ardent supporters, he deserves to reap the whirlwind.

Sookie
09-12-2010, 11:45 PM
And McHale had games in which he was the key to Boston's victories in the Finals rather than Bird, but nonetheless was there any doubt who the Celtics' best player was? You see I'm not saying Kobe wasn't any good back then; I'm saying Shaq was the most dominating player for the Lakers during those first three titles. He was the most consistent in his contributions and the guy defenses had the most difficult stopping. Kobe was a heck of a Robin but just a Robin nonetheless.

I hate that argument.

Shaq doesn't get any rings without Kobe or Wade.

Yes, Shaq was the most dominating player in basketball. If MJ was on the same team as Shaq, MJ would have been second in command.

But at then end of the day, those were Kobe's rings as much as they were Shaqs. And Kobe proved he could win rings as the main guy.

Those rings count in his total. Like it or not. But Kobe agrees with you, in that he knew he could never be one of the best ever, if people looked at him as Robin, so he looked for his OWN team..he didn't look to join superstars. He didn't join a team to go be Robin.

Lebron got the players he wanted in cleveland, and left the team to be second fiddle, Robin, to Wade. So if the Heat wins, those are Lebron's rings, and most likely he'll play a major role in the championships. But this is a guy who wanted to be the Richest athlete in the world, but he didn't want the most responsibility on his own team.

But I think at the end of the day, Kobe grew up. That's why he's getting a pass. (and to be fair, it was always about basketball with him) He's mature now. He knows when to shut up to the press. Lebron's just going through some growing pains.

King Tuts Tomb
09-13-2010, 06:23 AM
My but we're literal-minded. Okay, if the point was lost on you, there is a relationship between fans and a star player. It's rather important. Lebron chose to air an unprecedented TV special announcing that he was ending it.

I understand what you meant, but how you said it is what interested me. This language, the athlete as romantic partner and object of affection, is pretty weird isn't it? Cleveland fans were "ex-girlfriends" and "spurned wives." I don't think it's a coincidence that fans create this scenario where they're romantically involved with players. Sport has always had a homo-erotic subtext, but in the last few years it seems even more blatant.


Interesting. What seems superficial to me is to b1tch about mysterious reasons fans and media turned on Lebron, even pulling the race card out, without recognizing that Lebron himself brought on the firestorm. PR is part of a public figure's profession. If a politician or a celebrity or a "global brand" sports figure botches PR, shredding his relationship with his most ardent supporters, he deserves to reap the whirlwind.

I don't feel like I'm *****ing. (edit: didn't realize PD censors the word *****)

As for race, I have no doubt it played a part in the situation. But PD has guidelines about discussing race on the board, and I understand and respect why, so let's not get into it.

And finally, I'll stress my point again: I understand why LeBron took a beating for leaving Cleveland. The question I've struggled with is why he took such a severe, extravagant beating. I've got a few ideas why, but you think the outrage was justified. Nothing wrong with that.

Basketball Fan
09-13-2010, 09:49 AM
Stan fires back

http://www.nba.com/magic/news/denton_story_091110.html


Van Gundy Fires Back at Riley
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By John Denton

September 11, 2010

ORLANDO -- While the rivalry between the Orlando Magic and Miami Heat might lay dormant at times during the offseason, the venom between the two heated, hated sides clearly never bubbles too far below the surface.

And old rivals Otis Smith, Stan Van Gundy and Heat president Pat Riley have made sure that the vitriol between the two teams continues to flow all summer long.

Irked at some of the comments from Smith, Orlando’s President of Basketball Operations, and Van Gundy, the Magic’s head coach, following Miami’s free-agent signings of LeBron James and Chris Bosh in July, Riley went on the offensive on Friday. He was highly critical of Smith, Van Gundy and TNT analyst Charles Barkley for becoming the ``moral conscious or moral authority’’ of players in the NBA.

Van Gundy, who worked in Miami with Riley for 12 seasons from 1995-2006, fired back on Saturday at the many inconsistencies in Riley’s behavior and criticisms through the years.

``I thought it was pretty typical. I was kind of amused by it, especially reading down through the interview,’’ Van Gundy said. ``He goes into Charles Barkley, me and Otis and then says he doesn’t worry about what people say. Wait, you called the press conference, you went off and everybody and you don’t care what people say? Clearly, he cares a great deal about what people say. I was laughing when I saw that.’’

Van Gundy wasn’t laughing when he read that Riley ripped him and Smith for questioning why James and Bosh would rather team together with Dwyane Wade in Miami rather than trying to win a championship on their own. Riley said the comment was ``an absolutely stupid remark,’’ but several former great players such as Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson and Barkley reaffirmed that they would have never jumped ship on their teams simply as a way to chase a championship.

``Pat’s thing calling Otis’ remarks stupid, I don’t think they were any different than what several ex-players who played when Otis did had to say. They looked at the game differently back then and backed up what we said,’’ Van Gundy said. ``The position LeBron and Bosh took isn’t necessarily wrong, but it’s different from what (Michael) Jordan, Magic (Johnson) and Larry Bird would have done. Otis was a part of that generation – he wasn’t at that level – but that’s the way those players looked at (James and Bosh going to Miami). Those (former players) wouldn’t have tried to team up. So what Otis said wasn’t a stupid remark. Unless of course you have a different opinion than Pat, then apparently it’s stupid.’’

The part of Riley’s remarks that especially infuriated Van Gundy was when he accused the Magic’s coach of passing moral judgments on other players. Van Gundy admitted that he was ``out of line’’ for saying that Bosh was ``following Wade around like a lapdog’’ in early July. But he was bothered by Riley’s accusations because he saw firsthand how Riley personally attacked Van Gundy’s brother, former New York coach Jeff Van Gundy, during the 1990s and the Knicks-Heat playoffs series.

``Whether it’s appropriate to do it or not (to pass judgments) is another issue, but if it’s OK for Pat to do it he shouldn’t be judging other people,’’ Van Gundy said. ``Pat was upset that he and his guys have gotten some criticism and he’s sensitive and the funniest part of the whole thing is him saying he doesn’t worry about what people say. My question is then, `Why did you go and call your own press conference?’

``Pat getting onto people for making moral judgments made me laugh,’’ Van Gundy continued. ``I was with Pat when we had all of those Knicks series and he had no problem making moral judgments on my brother. What I read into that was that I guess Pat is the only one allowed to make those moral judgments and the rest of us can’t do that. I guess we didn’t realize that Pat’s the only allowed to do that.’’

Van Gundy said the attention the Heat, and James in particular, called to themselves during the free-agency courting period, opened them up to criticism. James was almost universally ripped in early July after setting up a nationally televised broadcast on ESPN to announce that he was ``taking his talents to South Beach.’’

Miami also caught flack for throwing what closely resembled a championship ceremony to introduce James, Wade and Bosh to the Heat fanbase. The addition of James, a two-time MVP, and Bosh, an all-star power forward, to Wade made the Heat a favorite to win the championship, but it also made them a target around the NBA, Van Gundy said.

``Competitive people, which definitely encompasses professional athletes, are always looking for challenges,’’ Van Gundy said. ``It’s not just Miami, though. The talent that Miami has assembled has heightened everybody’s sense of challenge. But it’s also Boston, Atlanta, Milwaukee and Chicago. But I’d say everybody around the league -- and in the East in particular -- has a heightened sense of the challenge and knows that they are going to have to rise to it if they want to achieve their goals. I think it’s been an extra sense of motivation for our guys, but it’s not just Miami. Boston handed it to us last year. We have to rise to that challenge and the other teams getting better. But guys like that, they want to play in those types of games and they want to be challenged. I’m sure with what Miami has done, it’s made our guys work a little harder.’

d_c
09-13-2010, 04:19 PM
Just my personal opinion here.

I think people (casual and serious NBA fans) are a little to obsessed with what kind of person Lebron James is. I find this focus to be obscure. They should just focus more on the basketball player.

I mean I know this is the case when people are already starting to talk about Kevin Durant possibly being better than Lebron or "taking the torch from him" or whatever. Lebron has carried teams devoid of any real high level talent to the NBA Finals as a 21 year old and has been to the conference finals a number of times. Kevin Durant has yet to win a single playoff series.

Lebron doesn't get into off the court problems. He hasn't been busted for drugs, DUIs, not paying child support or throwing his girlfriend down a flight of stairs.

Here's what Lebron is: He's the best player in basketball and has a lot of endorsements. He wants to make a lot of money and be a global brand. He was a free agent free to sign with any team in the league and he chose the place that he thought gave him the best chance of winning. Sure, his act of showing up on ESPN to announce his "decision" was pretty lame, contrived and totally unnecessary. Still, that's a better way to make the news than raping some girl on Colorado. That's JMO.

My take: People are too obsessed with what kind of people persons these superstars are. They want to be assured that rainbows spring up everywhere they walk around while they're also able to lead teams to championships. Truth is, a lot of our heroes aren't that great of people. If you knew Michael Jordan personally and what kind of guy he really is, you probably wouldn't be nearly as impressed with him as a person than as a player. I'm sure Steve Kerr could tell you more about the type of person and teammate Jordan is after getting punched in the face by him in a practice. Imagine the flak Lebron would've gotten if he punched Daniel Gibson in practice. Oh but with Jordan it was perfectly ok because it just "showed what kind of competitor he is." Or go ask Bill Cartwright how he felt after Jordan told his teammates to never pass the ball to Cartwright or they'd never see the ball again.

People were expecting Lebron to be 100% loyal to Cleveland no matter what. No matter how poorly a team they put around him, they expected him to lead that sorry organization to a championship. Well, even Lebron had a good idea that it probably wasn't going to happen there, so he exercised his right as a FA to sign somewhere else.

Then people say: "Well, that shows his true colors. It shows that he's all about himself."

Um, so what? He thought about himself first? This is a league that deliberately markets to individual stars and players inherently think about themselves first. Securing their big pay day first and then wondering about how they're going to contend next. That describes 95% of the players in the league. People need to put away the fantasies about their ideal hero players and wake up to reality. Again, JMO.

Since86
09-14-2010, 01:08 PM
Just my personal opinion here.

I think people (casual and serious NBA fans) are a little to obsessed with what kind of person Lebron James is. I find this focus to be obscure. They should just focus more on the basketball player.

Really? You're going to come to and INDIANA PACERS board, and start talking about how it's only what happens on the court that matters?

Not to sound like a prick, but you picked the wrong place to bring that argument. I, we, have about 8 years worth of off the court bull**** to throw back at that argument about how what type of people basketball players are and how it affects player/fan relationships.


I mean seriously, you're aruging that players shouldn't have respect for their fans and it doesn't matter what they do on their own time? Take that crap back to a Warriors board.

I think the phrase "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" is pretty accurate in this situation.

Sookie
09-14-2010, 01:45 PM
Really? You're going to come to and INDIANA PACERS board, and start talking about how it's only what happens on the court that matters?

Not to sound like a prick, but you picked the wrong place to bring that argument. I, we, have about 8 years worth of off the court bull**** to throw back at that argument about how what type of people basketball players are and how it affects player/fan relationships.


I mean seriously, you're aruging that players shouldn't have respect for their fans and it doesn't matter what they do on their own time? Take that crap back to a Warriors board.

I think the phrase "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" is pretty accurate in this situation.

To be fair, I think the intention was

"who cares if Lebron James is an arrogant prick"

not necessarily "who cares if Lebron James shoots up a club or beats up his girlfriend"

I think there's a pretty big difference. But in many ways, it's like Tiger's case. Lebron has tried very hard to market himself as a happy go lucky humble kid. When he does things (hour long special, acts like an arrogant jerk, gives up on his team ect..) that disagree with that image, people will take notice. It's almost like we were lied to..

Since86
09-14-2010, 02:02 PM
So we're only supposed to care about their off court issues if there is a police issue? Got it.

This is my point. The type of person you are off the court directly relates to the type of person you are on the court. People are people. They don't change when they step inbetween 4 painted lines. Personalities make people who they are, and they don't magically change for 2hrs a couple of nights a week. How you handle yourself in situations off the court gives a pretty good indication on how you will handle situations on it.

I mean look at the differences between Russell and Chamberlain.

Does "The Decision" really surprise anyone? People were bashing LeBron for giving up on his team, which he denied and denied, but then he stops communicating with the Cavs all together and goes to the easiest place to get a ring.

I don't care if it's an NBA player, or some chump playing in a local Y league. Your personality off the court carries over to how you play the game.

d_c
09-14-2010, 07:04 PM
Really? You're going to come to and INDIANA PACERS board, and start talking about how it's only what happens on the court that matters?

Not to sound like a prick, but you picked the wrong place to bring that argument. I, we, have about 8 years worth of off the court bull**** to throw back at that argument about how what type of people basketball players are and how it affects player/fan relationships.


I mean seriously, you're aruging that players shouldn't have respect for their fans and it doesn't matter what they do on their own time? Take that crap back to a Warriors board.

I think the phrase "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" is pretty accurate in this situation.


Learn to read whole post and not just one paragraph so you can learn what context means. Notice how I also said Lebron stays out of trouble off the court. He doesn't shoot guns in public, physically or sexually assault women or fail to pay child support. If he's avoiding this kind of stuff, then why obsess about what kind of person he is if he's doing nothing to harm others in society?

Lebron is showing no respect to fans by exercising what team he wants to play with when he's a free agent? I'm sorry, but that's stretching the word disrespect, IMO. Again, the only blatantly unnecessary thing he did was to have to announce his decision on TV, but still a way better way to make the news than your homeboy Lance Stephenson.

As far as Lebron giving up on his team, well, does anyone complain about players when they give up on a poorly run franchise? When players want to leave places like the Clips or Warriors because they're poorly run franchises and not places players want to play in, do we blame players for that? We're usually pretty understanding. Yet we have a double standard for the superstars and somehow think they should be more committed to a franchise no matter what.

d_c
09-14-2010, 07:13 PM
To be fair, I think the intention was

"who cares if Lebron James is an arrogant prick"

not necessarily "who cares if Lebron James shoots up a club or beats up his girlfriend"

I think there's a pretty big difference. But in many ways, it's like Tiger's case. Lebron has tried very hard to market himself as a happy go lucky humble kid. When he does things (hour long special, acts like an arrogant jerk, gives up on his team ect..) that disagree with that image, people will take notice. It's almost like we were lied to..

I don't think Lebron marketed himself as some humble happy go lucky kid. Never did. He marketed himself as a basketball phenom and guy who was going to take over the league, etc...He's corporate. He stated from the very beginning that he wants to be a billionaire athlete. He never hid that fact.

Lebron arrogant and selfish? Sure. Just like 95% of all players in the league.

But if you think Lebron is arrogant and selfish for leaving a poorly run franchise, well there have been plenty of arrogant and selfish players that have been leaving poorly run franchises for years now and are still looking to do that right this minute.

avoidingtheclowns
09-14-2010, 07:42 PM
I don't think Lebron marketed himself as some humble happy go lucky kid. Never did. He marketed himself as a basketball phenom and guy who was going to take over the league, etc...He's corporate. He stated from the very beginning that he wants to be a billionaire athlete. He never hid that fact.

Actually he marketed himself as both: happy-go-lucky kid Lebron and athlete with serious skills Lebron. There was also business/ladies man Lebron and Danny Glover Lebron.

http://www.collider.com/wp-content/image-base/People/L/Lebron/the_lebrons.jpg

Sookie
09-14-2010, 07:47 PM
I don't think Lebron marketed himself as some humble happy go lucky kid. Never did. He marketed himself as a basketball phenom and guy who was going to take over the league, etc...He's corporate. He stated from the very beginning that he wants to be a billionaire athlete. He never hid that fact.

Lebron arrogant and selfish? Sure. Just like 95% of all players in the league.

But if you think Lebron is arrogant and selfish for leaving a poorly run franchise, well there have been plenty of arrogant and selfish players that have been leaving poorly run franchises for years now and are still looking to do that right this minute.

And pretty much every athlete knows that if you want to make money you have to market yourself as a "family oriented, clean cut happy fun loving person."

So he did. He even went to the extent of having articles taken down describing him at a party. (Which weren't even negative..but he was at a party..)

d_c
09-14-2010, 07:59 PM
And pretty much every athlete knows that if you want to make money you have to market yourself as a "family oriented, clean cut happy fun loving person."

So he did. He even went to the extent of having articles taken down describing him at a party. (Which weren't even negative..but he was at a party..)

Lebron marketed himself as the next big thing. A superstar an age 18. That was his main point of marketing emphasis. He had articles written of him describing him at a party? You mean like Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan do? I don't see what part of that makes an attempt to make him look wholesome or family like.

Bottom line: Lebron is corporate. He runs a business where he himself is the product. He's a promoter of himself. He came in to be a big name, be a big brand and go global. I don't see anything he's done to waver from that since day one. That's what he's been about and I'd have to say that he's succeeded in those goals.

bulldog
09-14-2010, 08:07 PM
Actually he marketed himself as both: happy-go-lucky kid Lebron and athlete with serious skills Lebron. There was also business/ladies man Lebron and Danny Glover Lebron.


HAHAHAHA. I think this is the only time the question of whether someone marketed himself as a "happy-go-lucky kid" could be completely settled. He actually, literally, marketed himself as a happy go lucky kid.

And further lawlz @ Danny Glover.

Sookie
09-14-2010, 08:15 PM
Lebron marketed himself as the next big thing. A superstar an age 18. That was his main point of marketing emphasis. He had articles written of him describing him at a party? You mean like Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan do? I don't see what part of that makes an attempt to make him look wholesome or family like.

Bottom line: Lebron is corporate. He runs a business where he himself is the product. He's a promoter of himself. He came in to be a big name, be a big brand and go global. I don't see anything he's done to waver from that since day one. That's what he's been about and I'd have to say that he's succeeded in those goals.

The point was he paid espn to take the article down, so that people wouldn't see it. Because it would hurt his image.

He marketed himself as a person too, not just a basketball player. It's really silly to debate otherwise. It's the same thing that Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant and plenty of other athletes have done.

He did this in order to be a global icon. Every hear him in interviews? He makes sure he appears humble and a "nice guy" family friendly. His commercials? A good majority are of Lebron being "goofy" and "Fun"

Yes, Lebron made it clear about what he wanted to do (be a global icon and the wealthiest athlete ever...I'm not going to touch on that though) but in order to do that, he didn't appear to the public as a businessman. That would have made him not marketable. He appeared like a nice, humble guy with a fun loving attitude, who just happened to have a tremendous gift.

d_c
09-14-2010, 08:45 PM
He marketed himself as a person too, not just a basketball player. It's really silly to debate otherwise. It's the same thing that Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant and plenty of other athletes have done.

He did this in order to be a global icon. Every hear him in interviews? He makes sure he appears humble and a "nice guy" family friendly. His commercials? A good majority are of Lebron being "goofy" and "Fun"

Yes, Lebron made it clear about what he wanted to do (be a global icon and the wealthiest athlete ever...I'm not going to touch on that though) but in order to do that, he didn't appear to the public as a businessman. That would have made him not marketable. He appeared like a nice, humble guy with a fun loving attitude, who just happened to have a tremendous gift.

Lebron isn't selling himself as a person. He's selling himself as an image. The image he's trying to sell is that he's cool, successful, charismatic and better than everyone else.

When commercials are made, companies just try to sell you an image as being really cool and attractive so you'll buy the product. If you actually believe every image a corporation tries to sell you as something that is truly representative of them as a company, well then there are people all over the world with bridges to sell you. I really wouldn't spend much time judging or analyzing someone's character by what kind of commercials they make on TV, as if that is somehow really representative of the person they are.

If I were to believe in every Hanes commercial, then I'd believe that Michael Jordan is some nice humble guy who wears the same underwear as everyone else. In fact that guy is a womanizer and heavy gambler. He punched and verbally abused teammates. He felt the need to single out and belittle guys like Jeff Van Gundy during his hall of fame speech.

Sure, I'll still buy Michael Jordan endorsed products if I feel the need to get them and I still respect him as probably the greatest player of all time, but I'm smart enough to know that the image he's trying to sell in his commercials is probably a bunch of bunk and not representative of him as a person. In the end, that doesn't bother me because I can understand what corporate marketing is trying to accomplish.

BlueNGold
09-14-2010, 09:07 PM
I've never rooted for the Lakers in my entire life. Not a single game. That's going to change this year.

BTW, I think it will all become obvious that a team is greater than the sum of it's parts. IOW, Miami is not going to win and it will not be that close.

Since86
09-15-2010, 12:02 PM
Learn to read whole post and not just one paragraph so you can learn what context means. Notice how I also said Lebron stays out of trouble off the court. He doesn't shoot guns in public, physically or sexually assault women or fail to pay child support. If he's avoiding this kind of stuff, then why obsess about what kind of person he is if he's doing nothing to harm others in society?

My reading and comprehension skills are just fine thank you. Maybe you should take your own advice. Where did I say he was in off the court legal problems? Show me one example. You can't.

I specifically used the difference between Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell for a reason, and why I talked about PERSONALITIES which isn't fully made up of legal problems.


Lebron is showing no respect to fans by exercising what team he wants to play with when he's a free agent? I'm sorry, but that's stretching the word disrespect, IMO. Again, the only blatantly unnecessary thing he did was to have to announce his decision on TV, but still a way better way to make the news than your homeboy Lance Stephenson.

Yep, you're right. Cutting off all communication with a team that has bent over backwards to make you happy and not even telling them why is total respect.

Holding a one hour "special" to announce which team you're going to, without even letting your former team know before the decision is total respect.

Talking about how he's not from Cleveland, but from Akron, and people from Akron hate people from Cleveland it total respect.

Shall I go on, or have I proven your point that he was a great upstanding member of the Cleveland community? I really hope you're not in P.R., or thinking about getting into it, because I doubt you'll have a job for long.

Anyone can plainly see that "The Decision" blew up in his face and was/is a total PR nightmare. I wonder why?




As far as Lebron giving up on his team, well, does anyone complain about players when they give up on a poorly run franchise? When players want to leave places like the Clips or Warriors because they're poorly run franchises and not places players want to play in, do we blame players for that? We're usually pretty understanding. Yet we have a double standard for the superstars and somehow think they should be more committed to a franchise no matter what.

So let me get this straight. It's okay for athletes to give up and not try as hard, when they're getting paid millions of dollars because owners do it?

Do I need to explain the difference between employers and employees? Owners OWN their teams. They are free to do whatever they want to do, especially if they think that it's good for the franchise LONG TERM. It is their team. Not LeBrons. He is getting paid to do a JOB.

I would love to hear the conversation between you and your boss, if you told them you didn't agree with the direction of the company and because of that you weren't going to work as hard. Absolutely love it.

It is a double standard, and it should be. It's their team. They are free to do whatever they want with it.

If LeBron doesn't like the way Gilbert was running the team, then he should have quit. When you're collecting a check to do a job, you'd better do your damn job. That's called "being a professional." LeBron has every right to disagree and have a different opinion. But when he accepts that check he is required to uphold his part of the deal.



Like I said in my original post. Who would have thunk it. A prima donna off the court acting like one on the court. Hmmmm....what a surprise.

Since86
09-15-2010, 12:13 PM
Lebron isn't selling himself as a person. He's selling himself as an image. The image he's trying to sell is that he's cool, successful, charismatic and better than everyone else.

When commercials are made, companies just try to sell you an image as being really cool and attractive so you'll buy the product. If you actually believe every image a corporation tries to sell you as something that is truly representative of them as a company, well then there are people all over the world with bridges to sell you. I really wouldn't spend much time judging or analyzing someone's character by what kind of commercials they make on TV, as if that is somehow really representative of the person they are.

If I were to believe in every Hanes commercial, then I'd believe that Michael Jordan is some nice humble guy who wears the same underwear as everyone else. In fact that guy is a womanizer and heavy gambler. He punched and verbally abused teammates. He felt the need to single out and belittle guys like Jeff Van Gundy during his hall of fame speech.

Sure, I'll still buy Michael Jordan endorsed products if I feel the need to get them and I still respect him as probably the greatest player of all time, but I'm smart enough to know that the image he's trying to sell in his commercials is probably a bunch of bunk and not representative of him as a person. In the end, that doesn't bother me because I can understand what corporate marketing is trying to accomplish.

I'm sure Tiger would love to agree with you, but just hangs his head in shame whenever he takes a look at the list of companies that dropped him.

In theory you might be correct, but in practice Tiger and Big Ben offer up evidence proving otherwise.

Sookie
09-15-2010, 12:18 PM
Lebron isn't selling himself as a person. He's selling himself as an image. The image he's trying to sell is that he's cool, successful, charismatic and better than everyone else.

When commercials are made, companies just try to sell you an image as being really cool and attractive so you'll buy the product. If you actually believe every image a corporation tries to sell you as something that is truly representative of them as a company, well then there are people all over the world with bridges to sell you. I really wouldn't spend much time judging or analyzing someone's character by what kind of commercials they make on TV, as if that is somehow really representative of the person they are.

If I were to believe in every Hanes commercial, then I'd believe that Michael Jordan is some nice humble guy who wears the same underwear as everyone else. In fact that guy is a womanizer and heavy gambler. He punched and verbally abused teammates. He felt the need to single out and belittle guys like Jeff Van Gundy during his hall of fame speech.

Sure, I'll still buy Michael Jordan endorsed products if I feel the need to get them and I still respect him as probably the greatest player of all time, but I'm smart enough to know that the image he's trying to sell in his commercials is probably a bunch of bunk and not representative of him as a person. In the end, that doesn't bother me because I can understand what corporate marketing is trying to accomplish.

Yes he's marketing an image. And the product is himself, meaning that people believe that image is him. So when he does things like..disrespecting his team, quitting..ect..anything that goes against that marketing image is going to end in a PR disaster.

Since86
09-15-2010, 02:40 PM
RoboHicks has great timing. This story was linked on the RSS feed page

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5575810&campaign=rss&source=NBAHeadlines

naptownmenace
09-15-2010, 03:31 PM
kobe had shaq and now gasol/odom/artest/bynum

MJ had scottie pippen/kukoc/rodman

magic had kareem/worthy

I dont see what the big deal is to be honest

The Celtics of the 80's had Bird/McHale/Parrish/DJ and the 2008 team had Pierce/Allen/KG. You need at least 3 All-Stars to win a championship. There's nothing new about that.

Charles Barkley is the biggest hypocrite of all. Years of alcohol abuse must have fried his memory bank. He demanded a trade to Phoenix and then to Houston so he could play with Hakeem and Drexler.

I used to think Chuck was just a lovable clown. Now the lovable part has been removed.

d_c
09-15-2010, 09:51 PM
My reading and comprehension skills are just fine thank you. Maybe you should take your own advice. Where did I say he was in off the court legal problems? Show me one example. You can't.

You didn't, but you somehow managed to bring the Indiana Pacers past off the court problems into light in comparison with Lebron's "behavior" when I mentioned that people focus too much on Lebron as a person and told me to take that crap to a Warriors board. That was you, not me.

Sorry, I just don't see much of a comparison between the Pacers problems of the past and Lebron's current "behavior". Charging into the stands and punching fans can't be compared to going on TV and telling everyone where to play (while also raising money for charity). I'd rate these things as two different classifications of behavior. Again, that's JMO.



Yep, you're right. Cutting off all communication with a team that has bent over backwards to make you happy and not even telling them why is total respect.

Holding a one hour "special" to announce which team you're going to, without even letting your former team know before the decision is total respect.

Talking about how he's not from Cleveland, but from Akron, and people from Akron hate people from Cleveland it total respect.

Shall I go on, or have I proven your point that he was a great upstanding member of the Cleveland community? I really hope you're not in P.R., or thinking about getting into it, because I doubt you'll have a job for long.

Anyone can plainly see that "The Decision" blew up in his face and was/is a total PR nightmare. I wonder why?
So let me get this straight. It's okay for athletes to give up and not try as hard, when they're getting paid millions of dollars because owners do it?

Do I need to explain the difference between employers and employees? Owners OWN their teams. They are free to do whatever they want to do, especially if they think that it's good for the franchise LONG TERM. It is their team. Not LeBrons. He is getting paid to do a JOB.

I would love to hear the conversation between you and your boss, if you told them you didn't agree with the direction of the company and because of that you weren't going to work as hard. Absolutely love it.

It is a double standard, and it should be. It's their team. They are free to do whatever they want with it.

If LeBron doesn't like the way Gilbert was running the team, then he should have quit. When you're collecting a check to do a job, you'd better do your damn job. That's called "being a professional." LeBron has every right to disagree and have a different opinion. But when he accepts that check he is required to uphold his part of the deal.Lebron never quit. When did he tell his bosses in Cleveland that he wasn't going to play as hard? He played his @ss off for 7 years dragging that sorry franchise deep into playoffs time and time again. Last year in the playoffs, he played hurt with one arm yet somehow people call this giving up.

During his time in Cleveland, Lebron never blasted the Cavs management despite their incompetent ways. Never called out his teammates like MJ and Kobe have. Never demanded a trade. Never gave any ultimatums to anyone in the Cavs organization. He just played hard and did the best he could do to win.

He didn't quit. He played hard for them for every minute he was under contract with the Cavs. When his contract was up, then he signed with another team. If signing with a different team when you are a free agent is quitting, then there are numerous quitters every year in the NBA and pro sports. Happens all the time. If Lebron demanded a trade or made other such ultimatums while UNDER CONTRACT, then I'd agree that he quit, but he never did that. The guy played hard.

He didn't owe them anything. It's not as if the Cavs were responsible for somehow launching his fame. He would've gotten big anywhere he went from moment he was drafted. If Lebron were some D League player or 2nd round pick who was given a chance by the Cavs when nobody else would, then yeah I would agree that he owed them more, but that's not the case here.

The double standard I mentioned isn't between owners and players. It's between when a superstar decides to leave a poorly run franchise and when just some average player wants to leave a poorly run franchise.

Anybody every criticize some player who can't wait to leave a poorly run franchise like the Clips, Warriors or Wolves? No. Most people are pretty understanding that somebody wouldn't want to play for an organization like that so people should show some understanding when Lebron doesn't think he can win with the Cavs and wants to go somewhere else.

And I have always agreed that his "Decison" special was poorly timed, contrived and totally unnecessary. I don't' think much of him for doing that, but then again if people hadn't realized it already, that TV special was pretty much what he was about from day. He's a self promoter. He's his own brand name. I was a bit surprised he felt that need to do that, but hardly shocked.

d_c
09-15-2010, 09:57 PM
Yes he's marketing an image. And the product is himself, meaning that people believe that image is him. So when he does things like..disrespecting his team, quitting..ect..anything that goes against that marketing image is going to end in a PR disaster.

And if most people believe every image they see on commercials and TV as true to life then I think society has some real problems.

I want to emphasize again that Lebron never quit. He played extremely hard trying to drag that team to a championship. He chose to sign somewhere else when he was a free agent. Numerous players do it every year.

He made a fool out himself with that Decision TV special but otherwise I can't find any fault with his so called "behavior" this summer in comparison with any other NBA free agent.

cdash
09-16-2010, 01:25 AM
I want to emphasize again that Lebron never quit.

Did you watch the last couple games of that Boston series? In either game 5 or 6, he flat out quit the last two minutes.

d_c
09-16-2010, 02:35 AM
Did you watch the last couple games of that Boston series? In either game 5 or 6, he flat out quit the last two minutes.

He's right handed and he was forced to play with just his left arm for that entire series against Boston. For a supposed quitter, he sure was valued pretty highly in the free agent market. I'd love to have him on my team.

King Tuts Tomb
09-16-2010, 03:43 AM
LeBron had a triple double in game 6. How anyone can say he quit is beyond me. So he tried really hard all game then decided to quit at the very end? Frustration, sure. But flat out quitting, I don't buy it.

But if you're judging it that way:

Kobe quit on his team in the playoffs.

Jordan quit on his team in the playoffs.

You can't dispute either.

King Tuts Tomb
09-16-2010, 03:48 AM
Just turned on NBA TV and game 6 is on right now. They're doubling and tripling LeBron every time he touches the ball. He's making the right pass and his teammates are missing shots. They're missing free throws and turning the ball over. I can't understand this myth that LeBron blew the series. People need to stop drinking the Bill Simmons Kool Aid.

Basketball Fan
09-16-2010, 10:49 AM
LeBron had a triple double in game 6. How anyone can say he quit is beyond me. So he tried really hard all game then decided to quit at the very end? Frustration, sure. But flat out quitting, I don't buy it.

But if you're judging it that way:

Kobe quit on his team in the playoffs.

Jordan quit on his team in the playoffs.

You can't dispute either.



I don't think he quit either people are just looking for an excuse the Celtics were a better team and most definately better coached than the Cavs were.

d_c
09-16-2010, 11:02 AM
I don't think he quit either people are just looking for an excuse the Celtics were a better team and most definately better coached than the Cavs were.

To add to that, people in this society are constantly expecting somebody to fulfill the role of superhero. Like they're expecting somebody out there who is going to drag a bad team all the way to the championship by himself.

When he comes up short, they start hating.

All the while forgetting that MJ didn't win it all until he was was in his late twenties and it took Pippen and Horace Grant to reach all-star level for the Bulls to eventually do it. Or that Kobe's Lakers floundered around being a totally irrelevant 7th-9th seed in the 3 years following Shaq's departure.

You still need a team around that superstar, and the rest of Lebron's team just wasn't that good.

TMJ31
09-16-2010, 12:26 PM
I agree with Riley. And if it comes down between the Heat and the Lakers I'm definitely siding with Miami.

Agreed... If the Heat and Lakers are in the finals, I will find myself much like this last year... Begrudgingly rooting on the Lakers opponent (Despite massive dislike for them).

I have always liked D-Wade, he is one of my favorite non-Pacer players. So I would not have a tough time at ALL rooting for him to win... Bosh I had no quarrels with either. But LeBron, wow... What hasn't been said?

This guy needs to be taken down about 10 proverbial "pegs"

Sookie
09-16-2010, 01:09 PM
LeBron had a triple double in game 6. How anyone can say he quit is beyond me. So he tried really hard all game then decided to quit at the very end? Frustration, sure. But flat out quitting, I don't buy it.

But if you're judging it that way:

Kobe quit on his team in the playoffs.

Jordan quit on his team in the playoffs.

You can't dispute either.


Why you can't take statistics as evidence of game performance, 101. He quit on his team. Quite frankly, he just gave the ball to Mo Williams and said "you figure it out." He was the cause of the frustration, not his team.

I didn't see Jordan "quit." But Kobe never quit. Kobe made a point once. A very calculating self serving immature point. But it was different from quitting. (His point, "I have to score for my team to win. Stop blasting me for it." When obvioulsy he should have been trying to win, rather than make points to the media. Still, not quitting. Equally jerkish, but not quitting.)

King Tuts Tomb
09-16-2010, 05:02 PM
Why you can't take statistics as evidence of game performance, 101. He quit on his team. Quite frankly, he just gave the ball to Mo Williams and said "you figure it out." He was the cause of the frustration, not his team.


This is just untrue. For once and for all, let's look at the last two minutes and see whether he quit:

2:06 LeBron James makes driving dunk 85-92 Celtics lead.

Celtics dribble down. Pierce drives and LeBron partly blocks his shot. Celtics grab the rebound. Celtics miss again and get another offensive rebound. Forty seconds expire in this sequence. After a timeout:

1:27 Kevin Garnett makes 6-foot two point shot (Paul Pierce assists) 94-85

1:17 LeBron James bad pass (Rasheed Wallace steals). Not a great pass by LeBron, but not quitting. Good defense by the Celtics.

:59 Paul Pierce misses a three pointer.

:58 Kevin Garnett grabs the offensive rebound, passes back to Pierce.

Here is where the game ends because the Cavs decide not to foul. Mike Brown has conceded the game. What more can LeBron do? Run off his man all the way across the court and foul Pierce? Pierce holds the ball for 24 more seconds, misses a jumper.

0:33 Mo Williams defensive rebound 85-94 Celtics lead.

:16 Anderson Varejao misses jump shot, Kevin Garnett rebounds

Is this where LeBron quit? I don't see it. The game was over, the coach had signaled defeat. Mo Williams WALKED the ball up the court. Sure, LeBron jogged up the court, but so did everyone else on the team, the game was over. In the last two minutes, the Celtics had the ball for 1:33. The Cavs had possession for 27 seconds.

Please, show me where exactly LeBron quit on his team?

Since86
09-17-2010, 01:16 PM
To add to that, people in this society are constantly expecting somebody to fulfill the role of superhero. Like they're expecting somebody out there who is going to drag a bad team all the way to the championship by himself.

When he comes up short, they start hating.

And who gave him those expectations? Who made a commercial for ESPN asking for his chair back when it was a freaking throne?

LeBron put the expectations on himself, we the masses didn't do it. He did.

Once again, sorry I don't weep for a man that got himself in way over his head.

He's in the position he's in because he chose to be in it. You reap what you sow.

d_c
09-17-2010, 02:39 PM
And who gave him those expectations? Who made a commercial for ESPN asking for his chair back when it was a freaking throne?

LeBron put the expectations on himself, we the masses didn't do it. He did.

Once again, sorry I don't weep for a man that got himself in way over his head.

He's in the position he's in because he chose to be in it. You reap what you sow.

It was ESPN who made that commercial, making light of the situation that Nike had already created (Nike was the first one with the "King" ads with Lebron on a throne next to two lions). I thought it was pretty funny and well done.

And it was Adidas and Nike who bid against each other for an 18 year old Lebron when he had yet to play even a summer league game. Nike eventually won it with a $100M bid, with Sprite and Powerade following right there after. That wasn't Lebron demanding their money because he set the expecations to have it. It was two multi-billion dollar, multi-national mega corporations bidding for the right to pay Lebron to wear their shoes. And it was Stern and the NBA who promoted the hell out of Lebron because they knew he would be a hot ticket.

Nobody is weeping for Lebron. I would say he's in a pretty good situation. He's a millionaire several times over. He has a huge contract with at least another 2 such contracts to follow. He's got untold endorsements. He's going to a team with two of his buddies that is going to contend for the title. Judging by the way Kobe's image has recovered after sexually assaulting a girl, splitting acrimoniously with Shaq and ripping his teammates and management, I'm guessing Lebron can recover from a poorly executed 1 hour TV special.

My point in the thread wasn't even so much about Lebron as it was that people should temper their expectations about superstars in general. They're looking for the hero that can be the nice, humble guy who can singlehandidly carry his team to the top and conquers everything in his path. These guys don't exist, as not even Jordan falls into that cateogry. And I for one don't buy into these images these guys try to sell. I just take them for what they are as basketball players. They're extraordinary athletes.

I don't kid myself about what kind of people they are. Lebron isn't my friend or your friend. Kevin Durant is probably a nicer, more humble guy but he's not my friend or your friend either and never will be. I admire these guys as players. If they happen to be nice guys while they're at it, great. I don't get too worked up about how they measure up to the images that are given off in their commercials.

Since86
09-17-2010, 03:02 PM
My point in the thread wasn't even so much about Lebron as it was that people should temper their expectations about superstars in general. They're looking for the hero that can be the nice, humble guy who can singlehandidly carry his team to the top and conquers everything in his path. These guys don't exist, as not even Jordan falls into that cateogry. And I for one don't buy into these images these guys try to sell. I just take them for what they are as basketball players. They're extraordinary athletes.


That's all very well and true about ESPN mocking Nike, but again, LeBron brought the situation to him. He has fully embraced it, and I'm willing to bet he created it.

My point is this: why should we temper our expectations, when they're the ones who create them? Shouldn't they stop portraying themselves as something they aren't?

Why shouldn't we expect things from LeBron, when he's out in public playing the part? Why am I wrong by taking his word?

You mention Kobe rebounding from his fall. And that should prove the point that we don't NEED him to be what he tried to portray. We accept people as they are. Why did he need to make himself something he wasn't?

That's not only his fault, that's the whole problem with marketing.

I feel as if you're putting this scenario on the public. "Haters gonna hate" pretty much sums up what you're saying, IMHO. Don't lie to the public and then you won't have the backlash that follows when they figure out you're a liar. Be real.

d_c
09-17-2010, 07:12 PM
That's all very well and true about ESPN mocking Nike, but again, LeBron brought the situation to him. He has fully embraced it, and I'm willing to bet he created it.

My point is this: why should we temper our expectations, when they're the ones who create them? Shouldn't they stop portraying themselves as something they aren't?

Why shouldn't we expect things from LeBron, when he's out in public playing the part? Why am I wrong by taking his word?

You mention Kobe rebounding from his fall. And that should prove the point that we don't NEED him to be what he tried to portray. We accept people as they are. Why did he need to make himself something he wasn't?

That's not only his fault, that's the whole problem with marketing.

I feel as if you're putting this scenario on the public. "Haters gonna hate" pretty much sums up what you're saying, IMHO. Don't lie to the public and then you won't have the backlash that follows when they figure out you're a liar. Be real.

That might just be where you and I agree to disagree. Personally, I don't believe everything I see from every commercial on TV. That's just me. I don't set my expectations to things that I know are nothing more than an image being marketed on TV. I don't believe the hype in every image that Nike or any other corporation needs to market to me (even the Lebron-less stuff).

With that being said, Lebron has primarily portrayed himself as being very successful, very good at basketball and very rich. Generally speaking, his reality has met the expectations of that portrayal.

And I don't think Lebron lied to anyone (if that's you're saying he did) about anything. What did he lie about? He played hard and fulfilled his contract. He fielded offers from several teams and then made his decision. Sure, he could've used some better advice in how to announce his decision, but I don't see where he lied to anyone about what he was going to do. He's not lying about anything. He's just trying to sell you more Nike apparel.

If you want to accuse him of overhyping, poor tact in announcing a decision or failing to meet some rather high expectations, then sure. But I don't see the part where he quit or lied to anyone.