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Joel
08-11-2004, 06:37 AM
Hello Pacers fans. I'm a Kings fan and the guy who runs KingsTalk.com.

Over on my site the potential Peja for Artest and Jones deal is all anyone can talk about. The ongoing theme seems to be that noone can agree if it would be a good or bad deal for either team. I guess that's a sign of a balanced trade.

The Kings can definitely use more defensive intensity, but at what cost? Is it true that the majority of Pacer fans think that Artest is a walking time bomb and has the potential to destroy team unity? Is his defense worth losing the best shooter in the league? Is he THAT bad in the playoffs?

The Pacers could stand to improve their outside shooting. Outside of Fossil Miller, your team lacks anyone who can consistantly put the rock in the hole from deep. Is the loss in defense worth the inside/outside matchup problems O'Neal and Peja would create? Are you worried about Peja's history of playoff underachivement? Are his playoff performances any worse than Ron's?

Is this trade good for both teams? I think so. The Kings are an awesome scoring team, but have lacked the mentality it takes to win a title. I think Ron can give it to them. A defensive lineup for Jackson, Christie, Ron, Webber, and Ostertag is very interesting on paper. The Pacers have a great defensive team but they don't compliment O'Neals inside game at all. With Peja on the outside pulling men out of the post on defense, O'Neal has MVP potential.

If I'm the GM of both teams, I get this done.

Comments?

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By the way, If you are interested in the a Kings forum with some of the most intelligent and passionate fans on the net, check out KingsTalk.com. http://www.kingstalk.com.

Joel
08-11-2004, 06:41 AM
A few typos in there.. but you get the point.

indygeezer
08-11-2004, 06:48 AM
Welcome aboard Joel! :welcome: You've found one of the best sites to talk :pacers: bball! But I fear yer gonna stir up a hornets nest with that one:tsk:!!!

We're about evenly divided on the subject but the discussion can get pretty heated. So far it's remained civil but a never know:beat:

So kick back and enjoy the responses (damn yer up early!)

Oh yeah...I favor the trade, I love the scoring options with Oneal, Peja, and Stepen Jackson! (and as long as he takes his meds, RA is a GREAT player) and my vote makes it 100% in favor so the polls are closed!

able
08-11-2004, 06:53 AM
In all honestly, If it goes down and IF JJ is involved as well, though he would be useless here, I would feel that the Kings definitely got the better part of the deal.

Pedja has yet to prove that he can bring it on both sides of the court and in the playoffs, where Ron, despite his failure in game 6 of the ECF, has played a tremendous post-season.
I seriously think Ron is anything but a time-bomb. A hand full for the front office, but that's all.

Ron by his sheer talent is future MVP material, which I doubt Pedja will be.

Front office here is simply fed up and have a different mentality to others where it comes to pampering their stars, which is the main reason for the trade, if you ask me.

Would we get "equal" value in Pedja, close, but not complete. that's why throwing in JJ is more a favour to the kid imo then to the Pacers, he's a very talented shooter.

Joel
08-11-2004, 06:58 AM
Ron by his sheer talent is future MVP material, which I doubt Pedja will be.


I don't agree with that. Peja is just now entering his prime and he was 4th in the league in MVP voting last year. Artest is good, but I don't see him as a guy who can ever score 25pts a game and garner MVP votes. With that said, I still want him on my team because defensvie intensity means more to a championship team than MVP votes.

indygeezer
08-11-2004, 07:09 AM
A few typos in there.. but you get the point.

Typ0's? What ar e typ0's? We don't car 'bout know stinking typo's!!!

;)

TheSauceMaster
08-11-2004, 07:37 AM
I'll worry when and if the Trade goes down til then it's all the typical hot air this year , Diffrent Players Play Diffrent Basketball for Diffrent teams , Maybe Ron isn't comfortable with the New System and I think it showed alot Last year and it was known Ron had a few complaints , but he did try his best to play with it. So maybe Ron isn't such a good fit for us anymore and that's why he could be traded , if there is off courts issues then I will say the pacers and the team mates did one hell of a job covering it all up and keeping it outta the media.

Now don't get me wrong I am not saying there isn't issues off the court but I bet you will find flair ups with anyteam , No one likes to lose and I don't care how much they say it doesn't matter it does. Now some may disagree but I think Brad Miller Played well as a Pacer , but I think He has Played much better in the Kings system IMHO.

So maybe this is a good trade for both teams if it happens then it might be a bust for ethier team or both , I would be kinda intrested to see how Ron would react to being around Brad Miller again , I just found it wierd after brad left , Ron Calmed down in fact the whole team seemed to calm down abit.

Food for Thought :)

Unclebuck
08-11-2004, 09:32 AM
The Kings can definitely use more defensive intensity, but at what cost? Is it true that the majority of Pacer fans think that Artest is a walking time bomb and has the potential to destroy team unity? Is his defense worth losing the best shooter in the league? Is he THAT bad in the playoffs?






Two comments I want to make in response.

Artest has played in 5 playoff series for the Pacers and for his entire NBA career. He was excellent in 4 of the 5 series. Yes I know in the "most important" one he struggled. But give the Pistons a lot of credit for that as they were the best defensive team I have ever seen. So I would say Ron is an exellent playoff performer.


The other thing I want to say, is this, yes Ron takes a ton of babysitting, he is a little odd, he does some strange things, he says some strange things, but I think he is so good and so valuable that I beleive he is worth it. I don't know everything that goes on behind the scenes, but I know quite a bit, and I still don't want Ron to be traded. Because I think Ron is that good.

No one works harder on his game than Ronnie. If he can mature or correct some of his "problems" I think he will be a top 5 player in the NBA. I think he is that good.

I don't care how many votes Peja got for MVP, he is no MVP if you ask me, and he will never be IMO a top 5 player in the NBA, he won't IMO be a top 12 player in the NBA.

JOneal7
08-11-2004, 09:49 AM
wow let's just get rid of our best defender and a guy who can score 15-20 points a game for a guy who can score about 20 or more and has little defense! Please anyone who argues pejas a good defender is kidding themselves. Peja wants to stand out by the 3 pt line and jack up 3's all day. What will that do for trying to get jermaine on the post? NOT MUCH.SJax can hit the 3 when it needs to be we don't need to turn into the sac kings of the east (A bunch of high scoring with no D) there was a reason peja got so many points. (perhaps because the west plays no D?) It would be a bad trade as anyone can devise a plan to stop peja in the playoffs and he will choke again just like in the wolves series.
DON'T DO THIS DEAL!

Reggie4Three
08-11-2004, 10:26 AM
Ron by his sheer talent is future MVP material, which I doubt Pedja will be.


I don't agree with that. Peja is just now entering his prime and he was 4th in the league in MVP voting last year. Artest is good, but I don't see him as a guy who can ever score 25pts a game and garner MVP votes. With that said, I still want him on my team because defensvie intensity means more to a championship team than MVP votes.


I think it's impossible to appreciate what
Ron does on the defensive end unless you consistently watch it over the course of the year. From the perspective of a Pacer fan, I would NEVER do this trade from purely a basketball standpoint. Ron is the top shut-down guy on the perimeter in the league and averaged 18 ppg in his ever-improving offensive game. He's a hard worker so he's no doubt working to improve his offense even more than he has over the past 2 years. I think the perception is out there that Bird and Walsh are sick of Artest's antics and he's going to be traded regardless. If they are going to trade him anyway, Peja isn't a bad get for them. It makes us infinetely weaker defensively, imo. It gives us a new dynamic on offense, like having another Reggie Miller in his prime (minus the clutch shots so far for Peja though). At best for the Pacers, I see this as changing strengths because I'm not sure Peja would score as well in our offense as in Sacramento.

For the Kings, they acquire someone that plays so hard it takes his whole team to another level. Do you think Brad Miller would sit there and let them trade for Artest if he really thought he was a cancer when he played with him in Indiana?

IMO, this trade makes the Kings the #2 team in the West behind the Spurs. I feel comfortable taking on the Pistons next year with a healthy team + Stephen Jackson. After the trade, I'm not sure I like our chances as well. We just wouldn't be tough enough to handle it.

SoupIsGood
08-11-2004, 10:26 AM
I'm not in favor of this trade. All peja does well is shoot, while artest does many things well. But Artest D is more reliable tha Peja's shooting. Everyone has bad shooting nights, but D usually stays constant.

Plus, peja just sucks come playoff time.

Anthem
08-11-2004, 10:49 AM
Yeah, browse the board a bit. From an on-court perspective, I don't think you'd find a person on this board that thinks Artest for Peja (include JJ? Don't make me laugh) is a good trade for the Pacers. The Kings definately get the better end of the deal, talent-wise.

It's Ron's interactions with management that have some worried. But as I've said earlier, he's got to be easier to babysit than Christie's wife.

Lord Helmet
08-11-2004, 10:59 AM
Please don't do this trade.I think both Ron and Peja are great players but IMO both have there own flaws.Peja's is he doesn't perform well in the playoffs and Ron's is he loses it sometimes SOMETIMES.You gotta love Peja's shot but you gotta love the fact that Ron is the DPOY and can score.Ron shuts down players and when posting up he is near impossible to stop becuase of his strength.So please don't do this trade!The only trade I liked that involved Ron was a 3 team trade and it had us trading Ron,Scot and JB I think and we got back Peja and Damp.

DisplacedKnick
08-11-2004, 11:10 AM
Yeah, browse the board a bit. From an on-court perspective, I don't think you'd find a person on this board that thinks Artest for Peja (include JJ? Don't make me laugh) is a good trade for the Pacers. The Kings definately get the better end of the deal, talent-wise.



I don't think that - I think it's about even.

But I do think that right now Artest is a better fit for the Pacers, both from a personnel standpoint and based on Carlisle's philosophy, than Peja.

From a talent standpoint do you want someone with the potential to score 28 ppg and is a decent defender or a guy who should score 16 or so but is one of the very top perimeter defenders in the league?

I think based on talent alone it's close to a wash - which guy fits the type of team you're trying to build?

naptownmenace
08-11-2004, 11:49 AM
My only concerns with Ron is whether or not he and Jermaine O'Neal can continue to coexist. Ron has it in his head that he is a superstar - so does JO.

So far this hasn't really posed many problems but as both players continue to get better each year... the situation turn into a power struggle.

All of that aside, Ron Artest is the better of the two players. He's more of a complete player and one that has the ability to change games from the defensive AND offensive ends of the game.

People focus on his playoff struggles against the Pistons but their "D" was so good that they made Kobe look terrible 4 out of 5 games. Against Boston and Miami he was the Pacers leading scorer and in the past two seasons he's played well in the playoffs.

IMO, the Pacers should keep Artest, try to sign Dampier for the MLE, and focus on reshaping the offense for this upcoming season.

Vicious Tyrant
08-11-2004, 12:14 PM
I think people on this board are underestimating Peja's offense, but I still don't like the trade.

I think Ron's off-court stuff is manageable, and his perimeter defense is unmatched. My concern is Ron's offense. I don't deny that he can score his points, but I don't see him helping the team's offense so much. I wish he could develop into a more effective passer, especially with some of the other players we have who are spot up shooters (Reg) or post players (JO). His ability to score his points don't necessarily reflect his ability to be a complete offensive player. He strikes me as an excellent individual offensive player, but we all know bball is a team game.

That said, I don't think Peja is the answer, either.

Vicious Tyrant
08-11-2004, 12:16 PM
btw, naptownmenace makes a good point about Ron and JO coexisting. I hadn't thought of it like that.

Netweeny
08-11-2004, 12:34 PM
Yeah, remember last year when people were wondering who the 3 players JO wanted gone? Alot of people thought Ron was one of them. It's well known that he keeps to himself and doesn't make much of an attempt to blend with his teammates. It all just boils down to chemistry issues whether Ron is gone or not.

Joel
08-11-2004, 07:52 PM
I think people on this board are underestimating Peja's offense, but I still don't like the trade.

I think Ron's off-court stuff is manageable, and his perimeter defense is unmatched. My concern is Ron's offense. I don't deny that he can score his points, but I don't see him helping the team's offense so much. I wish he could develop into a more effective passer, especially with some of the other players we have who are spot up shooters (Reg) or post players (JO). His ability to score his points don't necessarily reflect his ability to be a complete offensive player. He strikes me as an excellent individual offensive player, but we all know bball is a team game.

That said, I don't think Peja is the answer, either.

You make some decent points. Peja's assists numbers may not look like it, but he is actually quite a gifted passer. Everyone in this thread has mode solid points about both players. Honestly, I disagree with most of you and think Peja would improve your team.

To break it down:
Better perimiter defender: Ron, but a lot.

Better post defender: Ron, by not as much as you'd think

Better shooter: Peja by a lot.

Better post player: Ron, by a narrow margin.

Better passer: Peja, considerably.

Easier to deal with: Peja, I'd assume.

Better rebounder: I'm going to go with Peja. He is 6'10" and has better hands.

Better finisher: Ron

Better freethrow shooter: Is this even a question? (Peja)

Looking at that breakdown and assessing what you guys need.. It really looks like Peja is the better fit. Maybe I'm wrong.

SoupIsGood
08-11-2004, 08:53 PM
Umm, what about Rarshard Lewis, him and say Nick Collison may be worth trading Ron, but I don't know much about Lewis. Does he play any d? I know he has good size and outside touch, but not much more.

Anthem
08-11-2004, 09:09 PM
I don't think that - I think it's about even...

From a talent standpoint do you want someone with the potential to score 28 ppg and is a decent defender or a guy who should score 16 or so but is one of the very top perimeter defenders in the league?

Yeah, that would be a hard choice. But you've weighted it heavily towards Peja. Ron scored 18.3ppg this year, not 16, and I have no reason to think the numbers won't be higher next year. And on the Peja front, he averaged 24.4ppg (not 28), and I think those numbers would go down (although his efficiency would go up) if he moved to the Pacers.

Rather than a 12-point spread, it's really a 6-point spread. And it's likely to be crunched from both sides.

To sum up: the offense is a lot closer than you're making it out to be.

Joel
08-11-2004, 09:24 PM
What was Ron's FG% again? He would of been better off trying to score 16.

Peck
08-11-2004, 09:35 PM
I'll just say this.

If it wasn't for Ron's (other) issues we wouldn't even be talking about this trade.

I have nothing against Peja & if this goes down it will probably be the best the pacers can get for Ron, but I'm not thrilled with it.

Just like Uncle Buck I have a little bit of an idea that goes on off the court as well. But to me it's also some of what goes on on the court.

As long as things are going fine Ron is usually ok, but the min. something doesn't go his way you better look out. Whether it's give a cheap elbow to an opponet or jacking up some 5 on 1 shot without even looking to pass.

In other words, just in case your wondering, all of Ron's troubles aren't just "off court" issues that a lot of us like to say. There are problems with Ron right there on the floor. How many other players on our team have been benched for "conduct detrimental to winning"?

But having said that I still don't like this deal. What the hell kind of team are we becoming?

But unlike others, I have no problem being rid of Artest because as naptown put it, there is a problem brewing between Ron & Jermaine. I didn't beleive that before but I do now.

Unclebuck
08-11-2004, 09:37 PM
You make some decent points. Peja's assists numbers may not look like it, but he is actually quite a gifted passer. Everyone in this thread has mode solid points about both players. Honestly, I disagree with most of you and think Peja would improve your team.

To break it down:
Better perimiter defender: Ron, but a lot.

Better post defender: Ron, by not as much as you'd think

Better shooter: Peja by a lot.

Better post player: Ron, by a narrow margin.

Better passer: Peja, considerably.

Easier to deal with: Peja, I'd assume.

Better rebounder: I'm going to go with Peja. He is 6'10" and has better hands.

Better finisher: Ron

Better freethrow shooter: Is this even a question? (Peja)

Looking at that breakdown and assessing what you guys need.. It really looks like Peja is the better fit. Maybe I'm wrong.


I disagree with a couple of your points

Better post player: Ron is better by a wide margin.

Better passer: I consider Ron to tbe the second best passer on the pacers team. So I certainly don't think Peja is considerably better if he is better at all.

Better rebounder: I'll go with Ron, and he has great hands. Not sure where you get the idea that he does not. They are quick, strong and huge.



My biggest fear comes from Peck.
"But having said that I still don't like this deal. What the hell kind of team are we becoming?"


In a vacuum and cosndiering some of the problems that Ronnie has and causes, Peja for Ron is not a bad trade. But then I look at our team and have some major concerns, I don't like the direction the team is going.

kerosene
08-12-2004, 12:18 AM
Nice site there Joel

Joel
08-12-2004, 12:44 AM
In a vacuum and cosndiering some of the problems that Ronnie has and causes, Peja for Ron is not a bad trade. But then I look at our team and have some major concerns, I don't like the direction the team is going.


Larry bird wants to team to resemble him and his metality. I know he considers Peja the closest player in todays league to him from a skills/potentail standpoint. I don't know if I agree with it, but He LOVES Peja.

Is modeling the team after a guy who won multiple titles and is one of the 10 greatest of all-time a bad thing?

Joel
08-12-2004, 12:45 AM
Nice site there Joel

Thanks. I appreciate it.

Vicious Tyrant
08-12-2004, 08:20 AM
Joel - interesting points. A couple questions:

1) Where did this info about Larry's interest in Peja come from? I've not heard that before (which probably doesn't mean much).

2) While I don't necessarily disagree with your thoughts on Peja being a good passer (You've seen him more than I), it seems like the Kings offense would be designed to max out his passing stats. I mean with as much motion as they have in their offense, you'd think any player who passes well would have gaudy stats.

3) Is that Bobby Jackson and a fan in your photo? What is the story with that?

erdega79
08-12-2004, 08:53 AM
http://www.sacbee.com/ips_rich_content/397-forwards.gif
It started with LB comments and it went from there

http://www.sacbee.com/content/sports/basketball/kings/story/8058375p-8991007c.html

My thoughts is that Peja has to nut up and gain some mean streak to his game and not be scared of contact. I really think he is the best shooter I've seen since every shot looks like it's going in. It's a thing of beauty but it also may have prevented him developing others aspects of the game since it was all too easy for him to just shoot if you know what I mean

DisplacedKnick
08-12-2004, 09:04 AM
What was Ron's FG% again? He would of been better off trying to score 16.



That was my point but I don't have time to go into it much right now. Ron should be the third offensive option and I think, with Stephen Jackson, he will be. He should be scoring 14-16 ppg, not 18. I'd see him having games where he has ISO's against someone he can take to the basket at will where he gets 30 but there are also games where he should take 3-4 shots, depending on matchups.

Vicious Tyrant
08-12-2004, 03:07 PM
DK, do you think Ron would be OK with that kind of role? It seems hard for me to imagine he would think of himself as a third scorer.

Vicious Tyrant
08-12-2004, 03:10 PM
Thanks for the link Erdega.

Look at this quote from Larry about Reggie:

"Absolutely, the way (the Kings) play, with all them long rebounds," Bird said. "It's like when I was coaching. I always told Reggie Miller it was a shame he wasted a whole career not rebounding. He had good lift, size. But he stood around waiting for somebody else to do it."

Harsh words, eh? I guess Larry still hasn't stopped talking trash...

rabid
08-12-2004, 09:09 PM
It's pretty simple.

Peja is a very good player. Players like him are rare.

Ron is a very good player. Players like him are... um... oh, wait.

THERE IS NO ONE ELSE LIKE RON ARTEST IN THE NBA. HE IS A UNIQUE COMMODITY.

You don't trade this guy right now unless you somehow sucker another team into giving you a Garnett/Duncan/Kobe/Shaq-type player. He's too valuable of a commodity.

Lord Helmet
08-12-2004, 10:21 PM
It's pretty simple.

Peja is a very good player. Players like him are rare.

Ron is a very good player. Players like him are... um... oh, wait.

THERE IS NO ONE ELSE LIKE RON ARTEST IN THE NBA. HE IS A UNIQUE COMMODITY.

You don't trade this guy right now unless you somehow sucker another team into giving you a Garnett/Duncan/Kobe/Shaq-type player. He's too valuable of a commodity.

:bowdown:

Unclebuck
08-12-2004, 11:22 PM
What was Ron's FG% again? He would of been better off trying to score 16.



That was my point but I don't have time to go into it much right now. Ron should be the third offensive option and I think, with Stephen Jackson, he will be. He should be scoring 14-16 ppg, not 18. I'd see him having games where he has ISO's against someone he can take to the basket at will where he gets 30 but there are also games where he should take 3-4 shots, depending on matchups.


I don't know about that. Jackson shot .425 last season while Artest shot .421.

SoupIsGood
08-13-2004, 12:05 AM
Pierce shot 40%, maybe he should limit himself to 13 a game.

tate
08-13-2004, 12:07 AM
What was Ron's FG% again? He would of been better off trying to score 16.



That was my point but I don't have time to go into it much right now. Ron should be the third offensive option and I think, with Stephen Jackson, he will be. He should be scoring 14-16 ppg, not 18. I'd see him having games where he has ISO's against someone he can take to the basket at will where he gets 30 but there are also games where he should take 3-4 shots, depending on matchups.


I don't know about that. Jackson shot .425 last season while Artest shot .421.


I would'nt waste my time with that point if I were you UB, alot of people on this board seem to think Jackson is a very good shooter, I have no clue why, his %s have always been poor. He has hit some clutch shots yes, and thats a good thing, but a good shooter he is not.

tate
08-13-2004, 12:09 AM
Pierce shot 40%, maybe he should limit himself to 13 a game.

No way, if he did that the Celts might not be so good anymore:rolleyes::laugh:

Anthem
08-13-2004, 12:33 AM
That was my point but I don't have time to go into it much right now. Ron should be the third offensive option and I think, with Stephen Jackson, he will be.

Hey, I like S.Jackson a lot and think he's a perfect addition to this team, but he scored 18.1ppg last year as a primary option in Atlanta. Artest scored 18, and while he was the #2 option, it wasn't because there weren't other offensive weapons available.

I expect JO to average 21, Ron 19, and Jackson 16.

Joel
08-13-2004, 12:58 AM
Joel - interesting points. A couple questions:

1) Where did this info about Larry's interest in Peja come from? I've not heard that before (which probably doesn't mean much).

2) While I don't necessarily disagree with your thoughts on Peja being a good passer (You've seen him more than I), it seems like the Kings offense would be designed to max out his passing stats. I mean with as much motion as they have in their offense, you'd think any player who passes well would have gaudy stats.

3) Is that Bobby Jackson and a fan in your photo? What is the story with that?

1. Edgera covered #1.

2. While it is true that the motion offense improves some players passing stats, Peja is usually the finisher more than the setup guy. He has made some absolutely unbelievable passes for a guy you is 6'10" over the yeahs.

3. It was one of the many times that Bobby dove into the crowd after a ball. It's just showing a little fan appreciation. That guy has more heart that most of the rest of the Kings players combined.

Joel
08-13-2004, 01:01 AM
It's pretty simple.

Peja is a very good player. Players like him are rare.

Ron is a very good player. Players like him are... um... oh, wait.

THERE IS NO ONE ELSE LIKE RON ARTEST IN THE NBA. HE IS A UNIQUE COMMODITY..

Disagree. Peja is more unique than Ron in todays league. The league has more enforcers and defensive specialists than pure shooters by far.

Name 3 guys who are close to Peja is terms of shooting ability. (There aren't any.. maybe Ray Allen, and Michael Redd.. but not really)

Now name 3 guys that are close to Ron defensively. (Bowen, Christie, Kirilinko, Big Ben, KG, Kobe)

DisplacedKnick
08-13-2004, 01:18 AM
DK, do you think Ron would be OK with that kind of role? It seems hard for me to imagine he would think of himself as a third scorer.


Well, it'd be more of a 2a and 2b situation - depends how teams defend. If they shade JO but cover the perimeter, Ron'll get a lot of chances. If they pack the middle, it'll be Jackson.

Anthem
08-13-2004, 01:39 AM
Well, it'd be more of a 2a and 2b situation - depends how teams defend. If they shade JO but cover the perimeter, Ron'll get a lot of chances. If they pack the middle, it'll be Jackson.

I can go with that. But as UB points out, they shoot basically the same percentage.

Both Jackson and Artest are easy for me to root for, since both have dramatically increased their offensive effectiveness each offseason. If they both improve their 3-point shooting, we could really do well next season.

Unclebuck
08-13-2004, 09:32 AM
It's pretty simple.

Peja is a very good player. Players like him are rare.

Ron is a very good player. Players like him are... um... oh, wait.

THERE IS NO ONE ELSE LIKE RON ARTEST IN THE NBA. HE IS A UNIQUE COMMODITY..

Disagree. Peja is more unique than Ron in todays league. The league has more enforcers and defensive specialists than pure shooters by far.

Name 3 guys who are close to Peja is terms of shooting ability. (There aren't any.. maybe Ray Allen, and Michael Redd.. but not really)

Now name 3 guys that are close to Ron defensively. (Bowen, Christie, Kirilinko, Big Ben, KG, Kobe)


Yes but only two of those really great defensive players that you listed averaged more than 18 points per game. Kirilinko averaged 16.5.

KG, Kobe and I would add TD, are 3 of the top 4 players in the whole NBA. Artest is not as good as those guys overall.