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Anthem
08-09-2004, 11:51 PM
Now, let's start with something we can all agree with: The Indiana media is toilet-paper soft. If the Indystar paper was as soft as the Indystar coverage, I'd never buy TP again.

That being said, I have a hard time believing that the Pacers could keep Ron Artest's SUPPOSED problems under wraps if they're as terrible as "sources" are saying they are.

I mean, the guy freaking willed us to the ECFs. It wouldn't be hard to make the case that he's been the best playoff performer of the past two years. A big part of that 61-win season can be laid directly at Artest's feet.

And what, exactly, has he done to **** everyone off? If there's something real, let's hear it now. If not, then let's hear that admitted too.

Here's the point I want everyone to ponder: If Ron Artest has been doing such terrible things that we're willing to trade him for an inferior player with a shorter deal, and we hadn't heard a whiff of those things yet, then Rick Carlisle and Larry Bird are guilty of "empowering" Ron to a degree that I.Thomas never dreamed of.

Trust me, I believe in "team first." I believe in fundamentally sound basketball. I don't believe in character assassination, and so far I've seen nothing to believe that the Pacers are drastically unhappy with Ron Artest.

So I ask again: Why would we trade Artest?

Hicks
08-10-2004, 12:00 AM
I just know what I hear, and I hear it from someone I trust. They want him out, because they're done dealing with him off the court. It must be bad for trade talks to be serious, which they are. If the only thing that entered the equation was his on-court performance, then HELL NO would you ever trade him. But apparently, and very sadly, it's not. So now it's about getting him out while getting the best thing you can for him. Peja appears to be it. Sad, but true. :(

SoupIsGood
08-10-2004, 12:00 AM
hicks seems to have inside info.. maybe he can shed light on some of the problems with ron behind the scenes...


edit - god im slow.

Bball
08-10-2004, 12:02 AM
hicks seems to have inside info.. maybe he can shed light on some of the problems with ron behind the scenes...


edit - god im slow.


And give up his source? Sometimes you just gotta trust the messenger....

-Bball

Hicks
08-10-2004, 12:04 AM
bball is right that I can't give it up. But if you trust me at all (some of you do, some of you don't) I can assure it's a very, very good source and there's about 0.000001% chance it's false. I made that # up, but you get my point. :)

SoupIsGood
08-10-2004, 12:11 AM
I believe you Hicks. I've never seen what it would benefit you to own this board, and then lie about having sources and such, it wouldn't make sense. I believe 3 sources when it comes to the pacers, any inside tips Hicks might have, David Aldridge, and the general media when they report a deal is a good as done. DA and Hicks have indicated Artest is out, so I have given up hope on him.

What about boston hicks, are they a possibilty for Artest.

And no, I don't believe BulletProof, and never will. :P

Hicks
08-10-2004, 12:25 AM
Boston would have been if Pierce had requested a trade. But he's decided to stay put, so as far as I know he's untradable.

Anthem
08-10-2004, 12:28 AM
bball is right that I can't give it up. But if you trust me at all (some of you do, some of you don't) I can assure it's a very, very good source and there's about 0.000001% chance it's false. I made that # up, but you get my point. :)

That what is false? I trust you, Hicks, but I have no way to gauge how trustworthy your source is.

Give me one example of something Ron's done that hasn't made the papers. Because nothing's made the papers that I'd think twice about. Not general "He's mentally unstable because he wants to win basketball games."

Any chance that your source just doesn't like Ron Artest on a personal level?

Hicks
08-10-2004, 12:34 AM
"That what is false?"

That what he tells me is false.

No, it's not personal with my source.

I haven't asked him for a while to give great details on Ron, so I don't have a story to tell right now, but I suppose I can ask again. However I have 0, none, no doubt in my mind that they want to trade him. And since for the most part his on-court performance has been pretty good, it's not tough to figure out why, even without specifics.

Anthem
08-10-2004, 12:43 AM
I haven't asked him for a while to give great details on Ron, so I don't have a story to tell right now, but I suppose I can ask again.

Doesn't have to be recent. Throw me a bone here. I'm saying there's no event that the public is aware of that would make this "trade Artest" situation make sense. I know no event will be as telling as a consistent pattern of behavior, but if there's a pattern then there should be one exemplar that you can point out. And I don't care if it's not from the last two weeks. Anything in the playoffs is fine.

If Ron's problems are THAT bad, then I have a hard time believing no media have found out, no players have ever mentioned it, no players friends went talking, no agents brought anything up. And if Donnie and Bird can keep all of those people under wraps, then the problem isn't just Artest, it's their handling of him. We never saw an extended benching. In fact, Carlisle went out of his way to say things like "Ron missed practice today, so he won't be starting tonight. But he's still our starter and we're not angry at him."

If things are THAT bad, then why the heck did we trade Al? Jermaine's Q&A makes it clear that he thought Al would never get a chance to start here. If Artest was that big of a problem, why not move Artest instead?

Unclebuck
08-10-2004, 12:48 AM
It was reported I think in a NY paper that Ron refused to get on the bus after a playoff game in Miami.

Unclebuck
08-10-2004, 12:50 AM
It was reported I think in a NY paper that Ron refused to get on the bus after a playoff game in Miami.

We know he missed a few practices in the Pistons series. He admitted he went to watch the Movie "Troy" when he should have been at a practice or a shootaround.


OK that is two stories

SoupIsGood
08-10-2004, 01:00 AM
I wish Boston wouldn't have made the playoffs last year, I think Pierce may have then requested a trade. I say we keep Artest for a while longer, someone better than Peja will request a trade. it's bound to happen.

Anthem
08-10-2004, 01:56 AM
someone better than Peja will request a trade. it's bound to happen.

Who?

I'm not disagreeing, and I'm not against trading Artest if we get equal or better value in return. But I'm not sure who that would be.

SoupIsGood
08-10-2004, 02:00 AM
Yeah me either. You can never tell. I mean, did anyone really think Peja would?

bulletproof
08-10-2004, 02:03 AM
And no, I don't believe BulletProof, and never will. :P

Good. It's better that way. Some people are destined to live their entire lives in the dark.

SoupIsGood
08-10-2004, 02:05 AM
And no, I don't believe BulletProof, and never will. :P

Good. It's better that way. Some people are destined to live their entire lives in the dark.




Yeah, I know, I feel bad for you BP. :cry: Don't spend your whole life there, come out into the light sometime.

Anthem
08-10-2004, 02:13 AM
And no, I don't believe BulletProof, and never will. :P

Good. It's better that way. Some people are destined to live their entire lives in the dark.

Yeah, I know, I feel bad for you BP. :cry: Don't spend your whole life there, come out into the light sometime.

You know, that line, coupled with the rumor that bulletproof is Donnie's proctologist, is pretty funny.

:devil:

SoupIsGood
08-10-2004, 02:27 AM
And no, I don't believe BulletProof, and never will. :P

Good. It's better that way. Some people are destined to live their entire lives in the dark.

Yeah, I know, I feel bad for you BP. :cry: Don't spend your whole life there, come out into the light sometime.

You know, that line, coupled with the rumor that bulletproof is Donnie's proctologist, is pretty funny.

:devil:




:laugh::laugh: OMG thats hilarious.

bulletproof
08-10-2004, 02:34 AM
And no, I don't believe BulletProof, and never will. :P

Good. It's better that way. Some people are destined to live their entire lives in the dark.

Yeah, I know, I feel bad for you BP. :cry: Don't spend your whole life there, come out into the light sometime.

You know, that line, coupled with the rumor that bulletproof is Donnie's proctologist, is pretty funny.

:devil:



:lol2:

Bball
08-10-2004, 02:54 AM
If what you are saying is true, then why in the hell did they trade AL??????????
If they knew they were going to move Ron, no way they let Al go too.
Al at 3 and Peta at 2 is way better than Jackson and Peta.
Unless something has happened this summer to force their hand, I say this is a bogus deal.

Because Al's trade value was likely maxed as was his talent? Maybe they think what I think which is that Al is a selfish player who is not 'Da Man' material but can't seem to come to believe that.

That's not saying he can't have an 'ok' career but it wouldn't surprise me to see him coming off the bench for the Hawks within a season or two. The grass isn't always greener on the other side and IMHO Al would've been better served embracing the role the Pacers had for him.... which is probably as close as he will ever be as a contributing member on a championship contending team. IOW- Al Harrington was vastly over-rated... especially by himself!:o

OTOH, Artest just has problems in other ways and they appear to have risen to the forefront.

Al, after his injury, couldn't have replaced Artest anyway so I don't see how one situation impacts the other.

-Bball

TheSauceMaster
08-10-2004, 09:25 AM
It was reported I think in a NY paper that Ron refused to get on the bus after a playoff game in Miami.

Actually it was a Plane and from what I gather it was a several hr deal, but who care's about specifics ?:p

Really I kinda gave up alongtime ago on defending Ron , honestly I could make a 1,000 post a day defending Ron , but will 1 of those post make a diffrence on if he get's traded or not ? My guess is no ;)

I want what is deemed best for the team , I don't want to see Ron go , But getting someone Like Peja is probably the most realistic and best trade your gonna get . If the Pacers trade Ron then there is nothing any of us can do , so we can cry , moan and kick our feet all the way or we can move on and hope it works out for the best , and that just means everyone is gonna have to work harder on there Defense.

It's may hurt and it may sting for awhile but I remember everyone up in arms when Brad Miller was traded off and no one in there Right Mind expected us to win 61 games and have the league's best record. I really do hope Ron get's a chance to redeem himself and doesn't get traded but those hope's could be falling away fast.

bread
08-10-2004, 10:18 AM
Long time lurker, first time poster.

I'd first like to say that based on what I have/have not heard, if I were LB/DW (which I'm not ;) )I would not trade Ron. He made positive strides with his behavior last season IMO and there's nothing that would lead me to believe that he won't continue to improve. He's still young.

OTOH, obviously SOMETHING is happening if they are even considering this trade because there is no way we would do this trade for any other reason. What that "something" is we may never know. Maybe Ron went off on LB/DW when they didn't sign his buddy Brewer:confused:

I like Peja and he is without a doubt a legit all-star, but Ron is too and as somebody else pointed out there's too much of a gap in their defense compared to their offense to make this trade a good one especially with SJax on board.

Hicks
08-10-2004, 10:40 AM
The way my source describes it, it's not so much any one time, but just having to deal with the same type of BS, over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Stuff like what Unclebuck described above. Things along those lines. For instance the "migraines" in the ECF were about as real as Miss Cleo's psychic ability.

It's not like Ron is eating babies or killing prostitutes here. It's that he's so chronically had to be babysat and talked to constantly to try to get him to improve with this crap, but to no avail, that they're just completely fed up with him.

Here's an analogy.

Ever known a guy who was dating a really hot girl, and he breaks up with her?. And all his friends say, "Man, I can't believe you broke up with her! She was so hot!" And the friend responds by saying, "Yeah, but she was a lot of trouble. I couldn't put up with her anymore." And the still incredulous friends reply, "You're crazy man, I'd put up with her s*** if I was banging that. You're never going to do any better than that."

Well, they're just going by appearances, aren't they?

That's about as well as I can explain it.

bread
08-10-2004, 10:42 AM
Great analogy! Point taken.

bulletproof
08-10-2004, 11:02 AM
Here's an analogy.

Ever known a guy who was dating a really hot girl, and he breaks up with her?. And all his friends say, "Man, I can't believe you broke up with her! She was so hot!" And the friend responds by saying, "Yeah, but she was a lot of trouble. I couldn't put up with her anymore." And the still incredulous friends reply, "You're crazy man, I'd put up with her s*** if I was banging that. You're never going to do any better than that."

Well, they're just going by appearances, aren't they?

That's about as well as I can explain it.

:laugh:

That's great, Hicks.

----

Well, I trust Hicks has a reliable source.

I don't know what else he has to say. Short of saying, "Ron fondled one of Larry's daughters" there's not going to be any one example that will convince any of you that Ron should be traded because you'll view it as an isolated incident. "Is that all?"

Everyone here knows about the missed practices and missed flights during the ECFs. Everyone here knows about the missed exit interview and Ron's glib response, "We lost, what is there to talk about?" And that's still not enough for some of you.


I guess some people get it...and some people don't.
*

Unclebuck
08-10-2004, 12:14 PM
Hicks, BP and others, I get it, I get it all too well. But throw me a bone here, just because I get it doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.

Anthem
08-10-2004, 01:07 PM
Oh, I get it too. And if we move Artest and Larry says that's why, then I'll live with it. But until then, I see it as continued character assassination.

There can be no dispute that Ron Artest is better on the court than Peja. Everything else is rationalization.

Bball
08-10-2004, 01:12 PM
I know I trust Hicks and his source but I don't trust that bulletproof guy at all. Proctologists can't be trusted... they deal in too much shi+ ;)

-Bball

Hicks
08-10-2004, 01:15 PM
There can be no dispute that Ron Artest is better on the court than Peja. Everything else is rationalization.

True, but there's no point in crying over spilled milk (if and when it spills), especailly since despite that fact, Peja Stojakovic is still a hell of a player.

bulletproof
08-10-2004, 01:28 PM
I know I trust Hicks and his source but I don't trust that bulletproof guy at all. Proctologists can't be trusted... they deal in too much shi+ ;)

-Bball

Hey, don't knock diddling another man's prostate until you try it.

Bball
08-10-2004, 02:15 PM
I know I trust Hicks and his source but I don't trust that bulletproof guy at all. Proctologists can't be trusted... they deal in too much shi+ ;)

-Bball

Hey, don't knock diddling another man's prostate until you try it.




.:laugh:

Hmmmm.....

:confused:

:yikes:

:puke:

Bball :P

Lord Helmet
08-10-2004, 02:18 PM
So.... Hicks does your "source" know when this trade will go down?

ABADays
08-10-2004, 02:34 PM
I'm calling you out on the IndyStar issue, Anthem. You live in Vegas so you don't know how toilet paper soft it is. Unless you subscribe. And if you do and are using it for that purpose - you are totally missing the point. It's to wrap fish. Take my advice - stick to the Charmin. :devil:

Mourning
08-10-2004, 02:36 PM
No, and Hicks hasn't claimed that. Basically he has said thay his source, which he considers VERY reliable (I have no reason what so ever to doubt Hicks, so, yes, I believe him) has made it pretty clear that Indy WILL look to trade Ron rather sooner than later, depending on what teams are prepared to offer us though, which is nasty considering his long running contract the bonanza deals given this summer to several mediocre players, Artests own more than "nice" contract (for our team), etc.

We would want to prevent Artests trade value plummeting, because we (beying management) have made it "public" that Artest is a pain in the a** (for management;)) , so its unlikely you will see a large number if any articles out of the Indianapolis area on DW and LB wanting to get rid of Ron Ron.

I guess that is what he is saying, please, do correct me if I'm wrong, Hicks.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Hicks
08-10-2004, 02:38 PM
So.... Hicks does your "source" know when this trade will go down?

There is no done deal trade. But if the Kings say yes to trading Peja to Indy, we will most definitely say yes. It depends on what the Kings want to do now.

Doug
08-10-2004, 02:44 PM
I broke up with a good looking, sweet girl in college because she was just too much work. Always busy, hard to schedule a date with, etc.

I don't want to trade Ron. But if we have to, I guess Peja is OK.

Lord Helmet
08-10-2004, 02:49 PM
So.... Hicks does your "source" know when this trade will go down?

There is no done deal trade. But if the Kings say yes to trading Peja to Indy, we will most definitely say yes. It depends on what the Kings want to do now.
Does your "source" think we will do any more trades after IF we trade Ronnie?Tell me when I'm getting annoying with questions.

bread
08-10-2004, 02:56 PM
If LB/DW are dead-set on dealing Ron then I'm happy with getting Peja. Even though his deal is 2 years shorter, by that time Pollard and Reggie will be off the books so we could offer him a pretty sweet long term deal that will keep him, SJax, and JO around for awhile and still have some $$ left over.

A major plus would be if we could get Damp to sign a 1 year deal for the remaining MLE. I'm not a big Damp fan but I bet he would play his butt off this year so he could justify a bigger payday. Not that I think we should be the ones to give it. But at least we would have some bulk in the middle this year and hope that Harrison can develop for the future.

MSA2CF
08-10-2004, 02:59 PM
I don't see why Erick would sign a one-year deal. What if he flops? That'd be a bad decision if I were him or his agent.

Lord Helmet
08-10-2004, 03:00 PM
Yea I would love to get Damp for the MLE.

Lord Helmet
08-10-2004, 03:02 PM
I don't see why Erick would sign a one-year deal. What if he flops? That'd be a bad decision if I were him or his agent.
Yea wasn't that the same deal with Brad M?Thats why he wouldn't sign a 1 year deal with us his agent was scared he would get injured.

bread
08-10-2004, 03:05 PM
Well, his options are dwindling by the minute. If he REALLY wants to play for a winner then that's our leverage.

bulletproof
08-10-2004, 03:06 PM
I have a question: Could we offer Damp what's left of the MLE and some money on top of that?

Lord Helmet
08-10-2004, 03:07 PM
I think DW and LB are waiting for Damp and his agent to get desperate.Which I thought they were.

Lord Helmet
08-10-2004, 03:09 PM
I have a question: Could we offer Damp what's left of the MLE and some money on top of that?
I dunno ask UncleBuck.

Hicks
08-10-2004, 03:46 PM
So.... Hicks does your "source" know when this trade will go down?

There is no done deal trade. But if the Kings say yes to trading Peja to Indy, we will most definitely say yes. It depends on what the Kings want to do now.
Does your "source" think we will do any more trades after IF we trade Ronnie?Tell me when I'm getting annoying with questions.


Well, there's this new rumor about Pollard to Cleveland that I hadn't heard about (nor he), but that aside I think we'd be done after Artest.

Lord Helmet
08-10-2004, 03:51 PM
So.... Hicks does your "source" know when this trade will go down?

There is no done deal trade. But if the Kings say yes to trading Peja to Indy, we will most definitely say yes. It depends on what the Kings want to do now.
Does your "source" think we will do any more trades after IF we trade Ronnie?Tell me when I'm getting annoying with questions.


Well, there's this new rumor about Pollard to Cleveland that I hadn't heard about (nor he), but that aside I think we'd be done after Artest.
Ok well I just hope whatever happens helps this team get over the hump.We are running out of time to get Reg a ring!

Anthem
08-10-2004, 04:16 PM
I'm calling you out on the IndyStar issue, Anthem. You live in Vegas so you don't know how toilet paper soft it is. Unless you subscribe. And if you do and are using it for that purpose - you are totally missing the point. It's to wrap fish. Take my advice - stick to the Charmin. :devil:

I used to live in Indy.

Also, you can't wrap fish in the Indystar because they've switched over to a toxic ink. Seriously.

Bball
08-10-2004, 05:22 PM
Ok well I just hope whatever happens helps this team get over the hump.We are running out of time to get Reg a ring!


Well... I will face the scorn of thousands for saying this BUT if Reggie wanted a ring as bad as some of his fans want him to get a ring then he'd be playing these last few years for the vet minimum and making it publically known that he would have no problem coming off the bench.

-Bball :o

Lord Helmet
08-10-2004, 06:00 PM
Ok well I just hope whatever happens helps this team get over the hump.We are running out of time to get Reg a ring!


Well... I will face the scorn of thousands for saying this BUT if Reggie wanted a ring as bad as some of his fans want him to get a ring then he'd be playing these last few years for the vet minimum and making it publically known that he would have no problem coming off the bench.

-Bball :o


OHHHH RABBLE RABLLE RABLLE!!!!!!!!!(If anyone doesn't know what that is it is a line from SouthPark)

MSA2CF
08-10-2004, 06:04 PM
I may not be seeing eye to eye with you, Bball, but according to that logic, Jermaine really, really doesn't want to win a ring, is that right?

Seriously though, Reggie is not all "washed-up," in my mind or his, so there was little reason for him to sign for so little when he believes he can still contribute. He was and is still better than a whole lot of basketball players. We have to face this--most of the athletes in today's pro sports, primarily the NBA, don't take less money to help the team. There are exceptions, like Karl and Gary.

Bball
08-10-2004, 09:13 PM
I may not be seeing eye to eye with you, Bball, but according to that logic, Jermaine really, really doesn't want to win a ring, is that right?

Seriously though, Reggie is not all "washed-up," in my mind or his, so there was little reason for him to sign for so little when he believes he can still contribute. He was and is still better than a whole lot of basketball players. We have to face this--most of the athletes in today's pro sports, primarily the NBA, don't take less money to help the team. There are exceptions, like Karl and Gary.

In the case of JO there is a difference. JO hadn't gotten 'his' yet. Reggie has been paid well by the franchise and in his declining years he could've opted to take less on his last contract and allow the team to have that money to spend elsewhere. OTOH, if he -knew- that any money he left on the table would've not been spent elsewhere then I suppose it would be foolish on his part.

EDIT: We're not talking about Reggie getting crumbs here. Also, IMHO based on production there is no way Reggie deserves his last contract numbers. He got it because Walsh is loyal to his players... and Reggie still arguably puts butts in the seats.


-Bball

MSA2CF
08-10-2004, 09:33 PM
Reggie puts my butt in the seats. That's for danged sure.

As for his "production" and his latest contract. He didn't play well his contract year because of an injury, if I'm not mistaken. Based on his performance from the previous year, when he was not injured, I can see why he would be paid what he is being paid.

I think I've gotten the years all correct...but I'm tired and don't know what I'm saying. Or maybe I do. :goodnight:

Anthem
08-10-2004, 10:23 PM
In the case of JO there is a difference. JO hadn't gotten 'his' yet. Reggie has been paid well by the franchise and in his declining years he could've opted to take less on his last contract and allow the team to have that money to spend elsewhere. OTOH, if he -knew- that any money he left on the table would've not been spent elsewhere then I suppose it would be foolish on his part.

To tag along, here, Reggie got a 3-year deal averaging 6 mil a year. Anybody think he'd have gotten half of the MLE from anyone else? No way.

I love Reggie Miller. But his most recent contract was stupid, especially since he'd already recieved his "appreciation" contract. His guaranteed contract cost us Peanut Butter, who'd look really good in a Pacers uniform right now.

Lord Helmet
08-11-2004, 12:39 AM
Yea I miss Primo.(I am serious)