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bulletproof
02-04-2004, 02:48 AM
...to lose Al. We need another consistent scoring threat. This isn't a kneejerk response to tonight's game, I've always had my doubts about Al. Oh sure, I wanted to believe in him, especially when he's had these little flourishes. But these past few games are a sober reminder why I'm not big on him. We simply can't afford this kind of inconsistency in the playoffs. If he has a few bad games in a 7-game series, were sunk. And I shudder to think if he goes cold in the first round. The time is now. We need to get someone in here who can assimilate to the team and provide that consistent scoring threat that we so desperately need going down the stretch. Otherwise, look for a team like the Bucks, or God forbid, the Knicks to knock us out of the playoffs.

Peck
02-04-2004, 04:11 AM
...to lose Al. We need another consistent scoring threat. This isn't a kneejerk response to tonight's game, I've always had my doubts about Al. Oh sure, I wanted to believe in him, especially when he's had these little flourishes. But these past few games are a sober reminder why I'm not big on him. We simply can't afford this kind of inconsistency in the playoffs. If he has a few bad games in a 7-game series, were sunk. And I shudder to think if he goes cold in the first round. The time is now. We need to get someone in here who can assimilate to the team and provide that consistent scoring threat that we so desperately need going down the stretch. Otherwise, look for a team like the Bucks, or God forbid, the Knicks to knock us out of the playoffs.

A couple of things.

1. I'll be honest with you. The Knicks scare the hell out of me. They are exactly the kind of team that can give us a serious scare, if not knock us out alltogether. I'm not saying that as a form of hyperbole, it's just the way I feel. They are strong in the backcourt & have enough big bodies up front that can totally disrupt our frontcourt. I know Jermaine was injured so he gets a pass. But just look how they bumped us & moved us around. We don't have anybody that can body up to Thomas & Mutumbo has always given us fits.

Which bring me to.

2. I don't 100% agree with you about Al but I will say this, we need to get offense from somewhere.

Look I don't want to get into this again with you because you have your mind made up & I have mine made up & neither is going to change on this but I just need to point this out. Last night was the prime example of why I always thought the Brad Miller trade was horrid.

We got nothing from our center spot. Whether it was Foster, Pollard or Croshere. None of them played worth a crap.

Here was the problem last night & IMO will be in the playoffs. We usually get by with Jermaine in the middle & run a lot with Al & Ron at the forwards.

If Jermaine can be neutralized, which I'm wondering if there won't be problems with that in the future with N.Y., then you really can't succeed with Al, Ron & Jermaine. If that does not work then where the hell is the offense going to come from? Foster gives you nothing. Pollard at best is going to throw in a few slop shots but on most nights his offense is an offront to basketball & as has been stated Austin is inconsistant not to mention I don't know that I want my center hanging out at the three point line.

I'm not opposed to a trade but I just don't want another forward. We need a center, IMO. But a shooting guard would be nice as well.

However it does need to be pointed out that Fred Jones didn't play so that did play some havoc with our rotation. But we barely beat the Knicks the last time & they didn't have Marberry then.

Did anybody else notice for a few min. Al Harrington played shooting guard? The lineup was O'Neal, Pollard, Croshere, Harrington & Johnson.

I'm no where near panicking, but I do think that an honest look at the team might not be a bad thing.

However we are the # 1 team in the league so it's hard to complain to hard.

skyfire
02-04-2004, 06:59 AM
Would the Pacers really get an impact player at Centre in return for Al? Apart from Ilgauskas which other centres are on the trading block? If we couldn't get a Centre how do you fit an SG into the rotation around Reggie general return to form since the start of the season? You'd wanna get quality in return for Al, but then would Reggie be coming off the bench or do you leave your SG on the bench and tag team with Reg?

ergh too many ?'s in that post.

Peck
02-04-2004, 07:16 AM
Would the Pacers really get an impact player at Centre in return for Al? Apart from Ilgauskas which other centres are on the trading block? If we couldn't get a Centre how do you fit an SG into the rotation around Reggie general return to form since the start of the season? You'd wanna get quality in return for Al, but then would Reggie be coming off the bench or do you leave your SG on the bench and tag team with Reg?

ergh too many ?'s in that post.

No, no my friend. You didn't ask to many questions at all, in fact I think you pretty much summed up a lot of the problems with the idea of moving somebody (Al or otherwise) this season.

I want to reiterate my point though. I am not saying to make a trade & I am not saying trade Al. Bulletproof is the one who wants him gone.

I am just saying that a good honest look at the roster never is a bad thing.

Personnaly I don't think any moves could be made this year & even if they could I am not sure they should. However I still stand by my belief that our center spot is our weak link, even more than either of our guard spots. Actually, since Jamaal has returned I think our guard play for the most part has been good.

A beefy team like the Knicks is just going to give us problems if we aren't able to hit our shots. I know if we don't hit our shots any team will give us problems but specifically the bigger ones will because we just do not have a bruiser on our team to fight them back.

At this point in time I am required by the by-laws of the D2 fan club to make the following trade statement.

Dale Davis solves most of our center problems. ;) Obviously he is not going to step out & hit the 18' jumper but he will bang back hard enough on Deke that he will move & it's already been well established many many times in the past that Kurt Thomas is Dale Davis's *****. :dance:

Peck
02-04-2004, 08:24 AM
Dale Davis solves most of our center problems. ;) Obviously he is not going to step out & hit the 18' jumper but he will bang back hard enough on Deke that he will move & it's already been well established many many times in the past that Kurt Thomas is Dale Davis's *****. :dance:

Dae Davis circa 1998 would help. Dale Davis today is a vastly inferior player to Jeff Foster.

Dear sweet mercifull God you have got to be kidding me.

Please tell me that was hyperbole just because you wanted to disagree with me.

Look I'm not even going to comment on this because I want to see if anybody else agree's with you.

Now before anybody jumps on here to agree re-read what he said "vastly inferior" meaning that Jeff is (Garnett) & Dale is (Lee Nailon) in comparison.

:arrgh:

Unclebuck
02-04-2004, 08:26 AM
Couple of things.

AL is hurting right now and that is effecting his play.

Every team in the league has weaknesses, every team that has ever played has had weaknesses, so while what is being stated in this thread is true about the center spot and the guard position, I don't believe trading away AL is going to help the team much.

Trading away your third best player you better replace him with someone who is going to be your third best player.

Peck
02-04-2004, 08:30 AM
Well, what the hell did you mean then? You said "Vastly inferior" which to me means that he is more than slightly better than Dale.

BTW, I don't blindly love all old Pacers. Just Dale. ;)

Man you must not have read most of my stuff on the old star forum because to say I love most former Pacers is actually funny.

bulletproof
02-04-2004, 09:59 AM
Every team in the league has weaknesses, every team that has ever played has had weaknesses, so while what is being stated in this thread is true about the center spot and the guard position, I don't believe trading away AL is going to help the team much.

Trading away your third best player you better replace him with someone who is going to be your third best player.

True enough, every team does have their weaknesses, and some teams counter those weaknesses better than others with how well they match up to you (see Peck's comments about the Knicks). That's just the reality of the game. You can let it go at that, but sometimes it's necessary to make adjustments along the way. And like I said, I think that time is now. I think we're far enough along in the season to know this: The only thing consistent about Al is how inconsistent he is.

When he's in good form, I'd contend that there's not many teams in the league that can beat us. And herein lies the problem, guys: There's always a backlash to Al's superlative play. He begins to forget what his role with the team is. He starts trying to play beyond that role. And it takes a crash for him to get his head back on straight.

Bottom line, Al doesn't maintain a consistent level of play long enough (for the reason I outlined above) to sustain us through a protracted playoff run.

As far as who we'd get in return, of course we'd want to replace him with someone who is going to be our third best player. Although I don't think that has to be a big man...right now. If we got a consistent outside threat, that would take a lot of pressure off the inside, where JO and Ron could be more effective. And honestly Peck, isn't that what Brad brought to the team? His consistent 15-footer? He drew players out of the paint. That's what he's doing in Sacramento right now as a PF.


Look I don't want to get into this again with you because you have your mind made up & I have mine made up & neither is going to change on this but I just need to point this out. Last night was the prime example of why I always thought the Brad Miller trade was horrid.

As long as we're making assessments, that's a fair enough one, but we're talking about now. Not what we should've or could've done, but what we can do now to improve the team.

indygeezer
02-04-2004, 10:56 AM
He may be our third best player but all too often he is also our weakest link. The one out at the 3pt line trying to take his man 1-on-1 and holding the ball until there's 5 seconds left (GREAT SHADES OF TREAVIS BEST--I just realized that comparison..not fair really but still). He stifles the offense way too often in what I conclude is a selfish attempt to get his. No, that ain't fair either...he honestly thinks he can get it done, unfortunately for whatever reason, he can't. I'm frustrated with him...he had a few good games but is hurting now so I have to give him some slack but that STILL doesn't account for wasting the clock.

Hicks
02-04-2004, 12:36 PM
I wouldn't mind moving Al for a different piece.

We HAVE an all-star big man.,

We HAVE an all-star wing man.,

Why not try to nab a future all-star guard with Harrington?

Cactus Jax
02-04-2004, 01:47 PM
So what would be available for Al? First of all, I see Seattle as probably the best chance of getting Al, if he's traded at all, becuase they have two pieces the Pacers need. Ronald Murray and Jerome James or Calvin Booth would probably work and things could be changed so Pollard goes there as well. There's Chicago with Jamal Crawford, Atlanta with Jason Terry, and the Wizards with either Hughes or Stackhouse, but that probably won't happen till off-season.

Booger
02-04-2004, 02:03 PM
I am not ready to trade Al at all. Sure he has had some inconsistent play of late, but what NBA players don't get into a funk every now and then? I can think of numerous games this year that Al played a monster role and helped us to victory.

I have two problems trading Al for a 2-guard.

1.) Right now, I think this team has excellent chemistry. Ditching Al for a new player could harm that chemistry well beyond what a new player could bring to the table.

2.) I seldom like the idea of trading big for small, unless it's just a completely obvious upgrade to the team.

Al's playing on a front-line with two all-stars. If he was starting in place of either one, he could potentially be an all-star himself. Also, we haven't seen what this team is capable of in the post-season under new leadership. If Al fails to show in the play-offs this year, THEN I'm considering a trade (and even then it had better be for someone special).

Unclebuck
02-04-2004, 02:03 PM
I am not trading Al for junk. What I mean is I am not trading him unless we can get an allstar caliber player.

AL is too valuable to a team that is 36-14

Arcadian
02-04-2004, 02:09 PM
36-13—best record in the league—and you're still pissed off. Hmm. Guess some people are never happy.

waxman
02-04-2004, 02:45 PM
People calm down here.... a couple days ago ya'll were ripping Vecsey for suggesting that Al might not want to be here. All saying Al is happy here, and that he was looking foward to quelling these trade rumors...now you want to dump him after a poor game.

Yeah he took a couple of stupid 23 footers when he could've stepped in to 15'...but jesus... home boy is averaging 20.0 pts and 6.5 boards over the last 5. He stepped up big when JO went down against Boston and scored 27 and we won by 1 pt. He had a very solid performance filling in against the Lakers, till he got hurt late in the game.

We really need to be getting Reggie more shots...he seems like he's getting his legs back...he's hitting those little floaters and runners again...I think we need to really make him our 2nd scoring option again... he needs 12-15 shots a night, IMO... when he does, he's averaging 22.8 pts a game and the Pacers are 5-0!!! That is efficient scoring folks...

Give the 5-8 poor shots that Ronnie & Al take every game and give them to reggie. Last night is the first night in weeks that Artest has shot even close to 50%, besides Boston...which from a maturity standpoint I thought was one of his best games.... didn't force too much,,,backed the ball out when something wasn't there....looked for teammates.

anyway I could go on and on....so I won't

Hicks
02-05-2004, 12:31 PM
I wouldn't mind moving Al for a different piece.

We HAVE an all-star big man.,

We HAVE an all-star wing man.,

Why not try to nab a future all-star guard with Harrington?

Following up on this, my thinking about Donnie's potentialy abilities is this:

He manged to nab TWO future All-Stars by dangling Jalen Rose.

I have faith that he could get us a potential future all-star guard with Al Harrington.

naptownmenace
02-05-2004, 01:19 PM
Right now I don't see the need for the Pacers to make a trade, especially not for guys like Flip Murray and/or Dale Davis.

Now if you want to start talking about trading for Ray Allen, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, or maybe even Brent Barry... I might be persuaded to agree.

Unclebuck
02-05-2004, 01:31 PM
Now if you want to start talking about trading for Ray Allen, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, or maybe even Brent Barry... I might be persuaded to agree.

Nap, I think we had a few "discussions" about Brent Barry over the summer. You seem really high on him, I just don't see it.

Only player I want on the Sonics is Ray Allen

Ragnar
02-05-2004, 01:40 PM
I would send Pollard and Al for Ray Allen in a heart beat. Ray Allen is a great player and an even better guy. He is a pro who would be a great replacement for Reggie when Reggie decides to retire. We could nto hope to be that lucky.

The Problem with that however is that between that "other" deal and this we would have no backups for our forewards or Centers. We would have gone from two good centers and power forewards to 1 good center and poewer foreward.

Of course we would have an awesome back court. And if Bender ever developed (wow that just gave me a headache) we would be ok in the front court as well.

Edit----> The real probelm with this is that now we have a gut at the two. Ron can play two but he is in no way a power foreward. As where Al can play both the three and four. If we wanted to have Ray Allen on the court we with Reggie for shooting ability at the end of the game Artest would have to sit because he could not play the power foreward position whith Reggie at the three.

As it is now we can have Ron and Reggie and Al on the court together while Jermaine is at the 5. But make this move and at least one of our best player would have to be on the bench at the end of games no matter what. Right now the chioce is either Al or Foster then it would be Ron or Ray.

Suaveness
02-05-2004, 02:07 PM
I think our team is fine right now. They just need to get their *** into gear and start playing like they want to win something. Granted, injuries take their toll. But I just don't see them playing like they want to win right now. That is all this team needs. It can beat any team in the NBA, if it plays like it.

I think Fred Jones can help. Sometimes, a good guard is what we need. Once he gets a shot, it'll help. I really think that he will be better next year, and this team is going to be better because of it.

naptownmenace
02-05-2004, 03:06 PM
Nap, I think we had a few "discussions" about Brent Barry over the summer. You seem really high on him, I just don't see it.

Only player I want on the Sonics is Ray Allen

Brent really impresses me. He's a really smart basketball player. He's athletic, can create off the dribble, is a good passer, and an even better shooter. He doesn't have any real weaknesses. Okay, his defense could be better but he's solid at it.

Even with all that, I wouldn't trade Al for him unless they threw in someone else of worth. A trade of Barry and Flip Murray for Harrington and insert player would be of interest to me. But overall Al has re-earned my respect. I'm really hesitant to trade him but yes, if they offered Ray Allen, I'd have to listen really carefully.

FireTheCoach
02-05-2004, 04:27 PM
It's all pretty simple IMHO...

Reggie, Austin and Al should have been dealt three years ago.

Now where have I heard THAT before....? Oh yeah.... I've been saying it for three years now.

Whats up Peck.... buddy, Austin Croshere still sucks. I don't give a crap if he scores in double figures three or four games in a row. He still sucks. We have a PF whos best attribute is an occasional 3 pointer but he is less than mediocre in the paint.

Al is a good young athlete, he's not an exceptional basketball player though. IMHO, Al would have been able to be a pro athlete in probably any sport he would have chosen... track and field, baseball, beach volleyball.... hell, you name it and Al could probably play it, but he's not an exceptional basketball player.

Reggie..... no sense even discussin him, I guess we're just gonna keep him around until he can no longer shoot a three.

yadda yadda yadda..... this is why I rarely post anymore. I just say the same things over and over again, it doesn't change anything and everyone already knows my POV so whats the use in posting.

I hate the winter time... I wanna go fishing.

Suaveness
02-05-2004, 04:45 PM
I think maybe you havent been watching too many Pacers games lately....

Since Reg is playing great, austin is being consistant, and Al has scored how many points in the last few games?? :unimpressed:

Roy Munson
02-05-2004, 04:56 PM
.

I think Fred Jones can help. Sometimes, a good guard is what we need. Once he gets a shot, it'll help. I really think that he will be better next year, and this team is going to be better because of it.

Over the past couple weeks FJ has shot it a lot better than Artest and most others on the team. He just doesn't shoot very much, which is probably a good idea.

But to say "once he gets a shot" tells me that general impression of Freddie's game is going to take longer to change than his game itself. Because as far as I can see, he's tons better than he was 2 months ago.

Suaveness
02-05-2004, 05:56 PM
.

I think Fred Jones can help. Sometimes, a good guard is what we need. Once he gets a shot, it'll help. I really think that he will be better next year, and this team is going to be better because of it.

Over the past couple weeks FJ has shot it a lot better than Artest and most others on the team. He just doesn't shoot very much, which is probably a good idea.

But to say "once he gets a shot" tells me that general impression of Freddie's game is going to take longer to change than his game itself. Because as far as I can see, he's tons better than he was 2 months ago.


Sorry, I meant to say consistantly. it's not that he doesn't have one, he just has never used it much. College- went to the rim. Last year- didnt play. I think next year we will see a very good FJ. And from the few games i've seen, he has a nice arc going on his shot. His FT % is around 80. The guy has the tools, he just needs to be more aggressive.

Tim
02-06-2004, 12:06 AM
...to lose Al. We need another consistent scoring threat. This isn't a kneejerk response to tonight's game, I've always had my doubts about Al. Oh sure, I wanted to believe in him, especially when he's had these little flourishes. But these past few games are a sober reminder why I'm not big on him. We simply can't afford this kind of inconsistency in the playoffs. If he has a few bad games in a 7-game series, were sunk. And I shudder to think if he goes cold in the first round. The time is now. We need to get someone in here who can assimilate to the team and provide that consistent scoring threat that we so desperately need going down the stretch. Otherwise, look for a team like the Bucks, or God forbid, the Knicks to knock us out of the playoffs.


I had a long winded response to this and deleted it.
You know I am a huge defender of Al so I decided to keep it short and just say that one of the reasons why the Pacers are having so much success is because of Al.

He isn't perfect, but he isn't as bad as people make it sound.

I have to ask the question, if Al was really that bad don't you think Rick would have done something about it by now? 95% of the time Rick plays Al like a core player, at the same level as Ron, JO, and Reggie.
Al makes plays, gets touches, makes turnovers and bad decisions and doesn't get yanked, just like Reggie, Ron, and JO.

Rick hasn't shown us that he is down on Al.

wintermute
02-06-2004, 04:15 AM
Trading away your third best player you better replace him with someone who is going to be your third best player.

this is probably the best response. for better or worse, al - warts and all - is an important player on the team. whoever we get back (presumably a guard) should be darn good too.

Bball
02-06-2004, 12:55 PM
I can tell you when I have the strongest thoughts on trading Al...

It is when we're in a game with the ball. He gets the ball with quite a bit of time left. Time to pass it back out and even get it pased right back to him... but he doesn't do that. Instead, he gets a 'look' in his eyes. Gets into that crouched position with his back to the basket. Starts dribbling like a manic 3rd grader on a Big Red buzz. Tries to back in.... still dribbling manically.... Defended tightly. Still time to pass but you can see he has no intention of that. He's continues bouncing into the defender but not making much ground....dribbling.... dribbling.....

Then he tosses some kind of lame shot or finally backs his man to the ground for an offensive foul. Sometimes the defender pulls the chair and Al sprawls to the floor. Sometimes his manic dribbling gets him in trouble and he loses the ball or it gets poked away. His shot might go in... it might clank... That isn't even the point. The point is he stalled the offense. He made it easy for the opposing team to play defense.

Al is a selfish player whether he understands that or not.

-Bball

Unclebuck
02-06-2004, 01:18 PM
I can tell you when I have the strongest thoughts on trading Al...

It is when we're in a game with the ball. He gets the ball with quite a bit of time left. Time to pass it back out and even get it pased right back to him... but he doesn't do that. Instead, he gets a 'look' in his eyes. Gets into that crouched position with his back to the basket. Starts dribbling like a manic 3rd grader on a Big Red buzz. Tries to back in.... still dribbling manically.... Defended tightly. Still time to pass but you can see he has no intention of that. He's continues bouncing into the defender but not making much ground....dribbling.... dribbling.....

Then he tosses some kind of lame shot or finally backs his man to the ground for an offensive foul. Sometimes the defender pulls the chair and Al sprawls to the floor. Sometimes his manic dribbling gets him in trouble and he loses the ball or it gets poked away. His shot might go in... it might clank... That isn't even the point. The point is he stalled the offense. He made it easy for the opposing team to play defense.

Al is a selfish player whether he understands that or not.

-Bball


Wow, that is awfully bad.

Anthem
02-06-2004, 01:19 PM
I'm not against moving Al, but it would have to be a good deal.

Can someone elaborate on the Sonics? Is there a reason I keep hearing Ray Allen's name? Because trading Al and Pollard for Ray Allen is one of the few trades out there that I would really like.

Of course, you only have the freedom to do that if Reggie goes down with an injury and if Bender shows us something (anything).

Bball
02-06-2004, 01:29 PM
Wow, that is awfully bad.

Bad that I took only one element of Al's game and shone a spotlight on it and not taking into account the overall game of Al?

A bad view of Al's game on my part?

Bad as in you are being sarcastic and that is actually 'good' and I am seeing it all wrong?

-Bball "I'm bad... I'm bad... I'm really really bad... You know I'm bad... I'm bad"

Bball
02-06-2004, 01:30 PM
I'm not against moving Al, but it would have to be a good deal.

Can someone elaborate on the Sonics? Is there a reason I keep hearing Ray Allen's name? Because trading Al and Pollard for Ray Allen is one of the few trades out there that I would really like.

Of course, you only have the freedom to do that if Reggie goes down with an injury and if Bender shows us something (anything).

I agree on the Ray Allen thing...

Bender has shown he has the potential to be the next Scott Haskins.... :(


-Bball