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Unclebuck
08-09-2004, 11:21 AM
I steal this from Rats, Diamond Dave who has been reliable in the past.
http://www.indystar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73838


espn 950 says Artest,j.Jones 4 Peja

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


According to Espn 950 Indy on top of hour sports update. Word has leaked out the trade would be Ron Artest and James Jones for Predrag(Peja) Stojakovic .

No idea who their source is but it was their Sportsdesk host Greg Rakestraw who said. Also said tune in to Shortsdesk at 3 for more on it.

You have to wonder when local guys say this if they actually have a source, if Pacers are wanting to test fan reaction to such a trade.


UB I put it in a quote box to avoid confusion; it looked like you said it not dd00 :)

Hicks
08-09-2004, 11:28 AM
I can see why they'd do this. According to the Star, Peja makes 6,875,000 and Ron makes 6,200,000. Adding JJ would be a little bit of a sweetener, but also add (according to hoopshype salaries) 620,000 to our side of it, making the salaries only 55,000 apart. I'm sure we'd do it to essentially not have to take on salary.

Dr Huxtable
08-09-2004, 11:30 AM
So it's bascially Artest for Peja ? :confused::confused:

WE DON'T NEED TO TRADE ARTEST FOR PEJA! :mad:

Although this isn't as bad as also losing JB and Chroshere and getting Bobby Jackson.

Doug
08-09-2004, 11:32 AM
I do not like this trade.

I think we get weaker and softer and worse. While Detroit and Miami got stronger and tougher and better.

I think that our chances of winning the NBA championship just went down the tubes.

The only good thing is that neither Detroit or Miami have a strength that Ron matches up against. Miami is strong at the 1 and the 5, and I didn't think Ron was particularly effective against Rip.

But I still don't lilke this. Grrrrrrrrrr.

Ron must really be a HUGE pain in the butt behind the scenes.

Does this make trading Al unnecessary?

blanket
08-09-2004, 11:34 AM
This would also open up another roster spot for us to add someone who might contribute this year, a vet player. If this trade goes through, our biggest weakness would seem to be post play. What FAs are left that fit that desription? Marcus Fizer?

Unclebuck
08-09-2004, 11:36 AM
I do not like this trade.

I think we get weaker and softer and worse. While Detroit and Miami got stronger and tougher and better.

I think that our chances of winning the NBA championship just went down the tubes.

The only good thing is that neither Detroit or Miami have a strength that Ron matches up against. Miami is strong at the 1 and the 5, and I didn't think Ron was particularly effective against Rip.

But I still don't lilke this. Grrrrrrrrrr.

Ron must really be a HUGE pain in the butt behind the scenes.

Does this make trading Al unnecessary?


Doug you have very succinctly hit on every issue involved here. I agree with everything you said.


I do need to say. If this trade goes down.

Our biggest weakness is not center it is PERIMETER DEFENSE. Without Ron it might be the worst of any playoff team. Starting lineup of Tinsley, Reggie and Peja. I might have to start drinking during games next season

:alcohol::alcohol:.

Granville
08-09-2004, 11:45 AM
I do not like this trade.

I think we get weaker and softer and worse. While Detroit and Miami got stronger and tougher and better.

I think that our chances of winning the NBA championship just went down the tubes.

The only good thing is that neither Detroit or Miami have a strength that Ron matches up against. Miami is strong at the 1 and the 5, and I didn't think Ron was particularly effective against Rip.

But I still don't lilke this. Grrrrrrrrrr.

Ron must really be a HUGE pain in the butt behind the scenes.

Does this make trading Al unnecessary?

Al still would have had to go. He wanted to start. He woulnd't have started ahead of Peja.

As I've said many times, I respect all of you who really like Ron's game and think he is invaluable. I make this trade though. I guess I can't get his 3 for 18 shooting nights out of my head.

Snickers
08-09-2004, 11:49 AM
JJ.... :cry:

I hope we get a draft pick out of it. And who's available to fill that last roster spot? I hope not Brewer.

Young
08-09-2004, 11:49 AM
I have mixed feelings about the trade.

I really don't care about trading Artest. If he is a headache then go trade him, just improve the team too.

- Peja is a great shooter.
- Good passer.
- Team player.

- Doesn't always performe in playoffs. [Neither does Ron.]
- Defense?

I can't say he is a good defender, bad defender. I don't know. I think that we can afford to do this trade if we start Jackson. Think about Detroit with Rip being a good team defender but Prince being the stopper. Jackson would have to be our stopper with Peja being a good team defender.

MagicRat
08-09-2004, 11:50 AM
I just heard the "Indy Sportscenter" on ESPN 950.

"Could there be a major trade involving the Pacers?"

Some mention of the Star reporting a possible trade of Artest for Peja/JJ.

"We'll talk about it at 3 o'clock."

Young
08-09-2004, 11:52 AM
JJ.... :cry:

I hope we get a draft pick out of it. And who's available to fill that last roster spot? I hope not Brewer.

I heard Michael Curry. Maybe it was more of a suggestion but both RC and KO love him.

Unclebuck
08-09-2004, 11:53 AM
"Al still would have had to go. He wanted to start. He woulnd't have started ahead of Peja.

As I've said many times, I respect all of you who really like Ron's game and think he is invaluable. I make this trade though. I guess I can't get his 3 for 18 shooting nights out of my head."


When I first read your post I was about to agree with you because peja has had 3 for 18 night also and yes in huge playoff games. Now I realize you are saying Ron has those games. There is a big difference between a Peja 3 for 18 and a Ron 3 for 18. Peja brings very little else to the table besides his shooting. Ron brings so , so much more than shooting.

I have to stop I am getting upset the more I think about this trade.

Unclebuck
08-09-2004, 11:59 AM
- Doesn't always performe in playoffs. [Neither does Ron.]



I'll take Ronnie's playoff performance any day and twice on Sunday. Prince will shut down peja just like he shut down Ron. And Prince will score a lot easier on Peja than he did when Ron guarded him. Plus Ron averaged 10 rebs per game in that series

Don't forget how well Ron played in the first two rounds last season. IMO he was the MVP against both the Celts and Heat.

Ron performs very well in the playoffs.

Granville
08-09-2004, 12:06 PM
"Ron brings so , so much more than shooting.


UB, unfortunately, some of those things he brings are off the court too, and may be why this is even being considered.

While I'd do this, I admit it could turn out to be a huge mistake. It is high risk, high reward.

Kegboy
08-09-2004, 12:20 PM
Well, if this is true...

It is what it is. We'll just have to learn to live with it and hope for the best.

Bender has to come through this year, or we're dead.

I'd very much like to sign Curry. He's a smart guy who gives us perimeter D, and, most importantly, he can stay on as president of the NBAPA. Don't need Shaq taking the player's association over in a CBA year. :shakehead:

sixthman
08-09-2004, 12:24 PM
I heard the ESPN 950 report between 10:30 and 11:00 and it sounded like a rewrite of Saturday's Star story. In fact, Greg even gave a credit to the story.

Kegboy
08-09-2004, 12:24 PM
Okay guys, I just heard 950, and it's bull.

It's just like I was saying yesterday, you've got to be careful with radio people. There's a big difference between "this might happen" and "this could theoretically happen because the salaries match." Greg gave me every indication it's the later.

Note, the whole 3pm thing is because his show starts at 3. He's just trying to get people to tune in to talk trade scenarios.

:rolleyes:

ChicagoJ
08-09-2004, 12:29 PM
ESPN 950 is reporting. *JJ* and Artest for Peja

Well, I'd certainly do a JJ for Peja trade. I guess Artest is just filler to make the salaries match. :devil:

Lord Helmet
08-09-2004, 12:51 PM
Please for the love of God don't do this trade.

Mourning
08-09-2004, 12:52 PM
I do need to say. If this trade goes down.

Our biggest weakness is not center it is PERIMETER DEFENSE. Without Ron it might be the worst of any playoff team. Starting lineup of Tinsley, Reggie and Peja. I might have to start drinking during games next season

:alcohol::alcohol:.







:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Kegboy
08-09-2004, 01:02 PM
Well, I'll say one thing, if we do make this trade, there is no doubt in my mind Jackson will start. None. Reggie's one reason to be out there is to stretch the defense, which Peja would do better.

If people complain, just introduce Sax as the SF and Peja as SG. Don't make a damn bit of difference, but it'll go over better PR-wise.

MagicRat
08-09-2004, 01:04 PM
Our biggest weakness is not center it is PERIMETER DEFENSE. Without Ron it might be the worst of any playoff team. Starting lineup of Tinsley, Reggie and Peja. I might have to start drinking during games next season

:alcohol::alcohol:

I'm assuming you were drunk during all the games in the late 90's when the Pacers started Jackson, Reggie and Mullin? And during the Finals with Jackson, Reggie and Jalen?

You might not remember it due to your :alcohol:, but they played pretty good team ball......


Jackson - Tinsley
Miller - Miller(Jackson)
Mullin - Stojakovic
Davis -Foster
Smits -O'Neal

Roy Munson
08-09-2004, 01:05 PM
I do not like this trade.

I think we get weaker and softer and worse. While Detroit and Miami got stronger and tougher and better.

I think that our chances of winning the NBA championship just went down the tubes.

The only good thing is that neither Detroit or Miami have a strength that Ron matches up against. Miami is strong at the 1 and the 5, and I didn't think Ron was particularly effective against Rip.

But I still don't lilke this. Grrrrrrrrrr.

Ron must really be a HUGE pain in the butt behind the scenes.

Does this make trading Al unnecessary?


Doug you have very succinctly hit on every issue involved here. I agree with everything you said.


I do need to say. If this trade goes down.

Our biggest weakness is not center it is PERIMETER DEFENSE. Without Ron it might be the worst of any playoff team. Starting lineup of Tinsley, Reggie and Peja. I might have to start drinking during games next season

:alcohol::alcohol:.



Oh, Boo Hoo, "The Sky is Falling, The Sky is Falling".

Cmon, give Bird and Walsh some credit. Do you really think they are going to do something that is going to make the Pacers a worse team? Do you think they were sitting around the office this summer saying "what can we do to really screw up our good team?". I kinda doubt it.


You are making a lot of assumptions in your pessimistic view of the world.

You are assuming that Ron Artest would be a solid contributor, level-headed, and a non-distruptive member of the team. You seem to forget the 4-20 shooting nights. The forced shots. The ill-advised three-point attempts. The flagrant fouls. The dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble oops-the-shot-clock-is-running-down-better-throw-up-a-bad-shot.

You are assuming that Reggie Miller will be the starter all season, remain uninjured, and play major minutes. I don't think any of those things will happen.

You are assuming Peja is some kind of stiff...at least one would get that impression from hearing you whine. For crying out loud, he's GREAT!! He's the best outside shooter in the NBA. He's a great passer. JO will be the biggest beneficiary of this trade. The Pacers offense is going to open up and it will not look at ALL like it did last year.

The Pacers defense will still be good. SJackson and Freddy will be great defenders. Peja will be a better defender in the new system because he will be coached by a defensive-minded coach for the first time, and the Pacers defensive system will remain the same.

I think Larry Bird and Donnie Walsh are a basketball geniuses. I think they are about to deal with a problem before it becomes a BIG problem.

Mourning
08-09-2004, 01:12 PM
- Doesn't always performe in playoffs. [Neither does Ron.]



I'll take Ronnie's playoff performance any day and twice on Sunday. Prince will shut down peja just like he shut down Ron. And Prince will score a lot easier on Peja than he did when Ron guarded him. Plus Ron averaged 10 rebs per game in that series

Don't forget how well Ron played in the first two rounds last season. IMO he was the MVP against both the Celts and Heat.

Ron performs very well in the playoffs.



Dont waste your effort UB, some here dislike Ron so much they will climb on ANY excuse to say "see! Lets trade him!!!".

I stated the same doubta about Peja facing off against Prince, I don't like that match up at all. And, yes, so far it seems we WILL face the Pistons, so this is likely to happen. Offcourse, to some Ron is garbage now all of a sudden, because of one bad series in which virtually ANY of our players played much lesse than they normally would, which IMO points directly to the opposing teams defense, Pistons this case. Offcourse, Peja playing several more bad series is not an issue at all:rolleyes:.

I will LOVE bashing the people who have advocated Ron for Peja was brilliant the coming season when we lose a game, because we cant get back in it again or maintian our lead with our defense and than start to complain about that;).

I like to have Peja, but I think some people are seriously underestimating what Ron does on more than one part on the court and how much progress he can still make. Also I think we could have just made SacTown a top-2 competitor in the West, because they can now lock down the opposing starplayer at SF or SG, while there own rapid scoring machine gets underway and will remain getting open looks, also Ron will have probably get a lot better looks too, so his scoring might very well go up.
Peja's numbers on the other hand....

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Mourning
08-09-2004, 01:17 PM
"The flagrant fouls"

How many did he have this past season? Also remember that punch he got against I think Philly wre he lost a teeth and just took his free throws to seal the game? Or is Artes suddenly ALL junk now???

You must have like Peja's series against the Lakers 2 years back and his series against the T-Wolves, particularly the last game, this past season?

I will admit that Peja does make things "easier" for the front office, questions is: What do I care if this makes it easier for them? They get paid for this. I only have a VERY LIMITED positive feeling about this, because I trust Walsh's judgement, Im not so sure about Larry here though.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Dr Huxtable
08-09-2004, 01:19 PM
Roy, you just gave me a totally different view of this trade.

I love what you say, and now I actually want this trade to happen.

I was thinking, who did Peja have to rub off on him in Sacramento, toughness wise? Chris Webber? Vlade? :laugh:

JO will rub off on him a lot of his toughnes, which will make him and the team better.

I sitll think we should throw in Chroshere and try to get Brad back or Bobby Jackson.

Mourning
08-09-2004, 01:28 PM
"The Pacers defense will still be good. SJackson and Freddy will be great defenders. Peja will be a better defender in the new system because he will be coached by a defensive-minded coach for the first time, and the Pacers defensive system will remain the same."

Ok, so how many minutes do you expect our undersized Freddie to get? Who btw is a good defender, I aggree with that(but not even close to artest!).

And defensive minded coaching will likely help Peja, BUT the sword IMO opinion cuts on both sides, there is NO WAY Peja will get the same numbers he got in SacTown with the fluid-fast paced offense they play.
And with that in mind is it REALLY worth it, trading a defensive greateness who is also only the teams 2nd scorer on the offense aswell, for a player whose defensive isnt dramatic, but certainly not great either and nets us maybe 4 or 5 PPG more? Offcourse, Freddie and SJax will take care of the Kobes and T-Macs of this world, Im suuuuuuuuuure they will :rolleyes::shudder:

I just really hope it works out, but as you can tell I have some serious doubts here.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Roy Munson
08-09-2004, 01:34 PM
Ok, so how many minutes do you expect our undersized Freddie to get? Who btw is a good defender, I aggree with that(but not even close to artest!).




Early in the season I expect him to play little, if any at all because of his shoulder injury and rehab. The second half of the season and into the playoffs I expect to see him on the court as many or more minutes than Reggie.

And of course if Reggie's body doesn't hold up (which is a definite possibility), Freddy's importance to the team goes up.

Dr Huxtable
08-09-2004, 01:34 PM
"
Ok, so how many minutes do you expect our undersized Freddie to get? Who btw is a good defender, I aggree with that(but not even close to artest!)."

OK, that's where you guys need to start thinking straight. Hardly anyone is close to Artest defensivley, so theres no need in getting upset that we don't have anyone with as good of defense as Ron.

Plus, this makes our team defense better because we don't have to rely on just one person.

DisplacedKnick
08-09-2004, 01:34 PM
" there is NO WAY Peja will get the same numbers he got in SacTown with the fluid-fast paced offense they play.


I don't buy that. I think JO's such a tough cover one-on-one that Peja will get a ton of open looks when he's doubled.

But I still don't think it's a good move.

beast23
08-09-2004, 01:38 PM
I'm not certain that Prince will equalize Peja.

Remember one important thing about this year's team. We ran absolutely no plays for the SG. With Artest at SF, we did run plays to get him open at mid-range, but none were really intended to give Ron an open look behind the arc.

With Peja, we would suddenly change our offensive strategy. We would be running plays to rub off guys like Prince. I think the balance between post offense and perimeter offense will be much more equitable.

And for those that think Miller is now relegated to the bench, think again. Last season, he was the only long-range bomber until Freddy arrived the last half of the season. But Reggie and Freddy were rarely on the court together.

You put two or even three bombers on the court together and you really open up the offense. Yes, our defense takes a hit, but the opponent also has to keep us from scoring as well.

ChicagoJ
08-09-2004, 01:54 PM
Yes, our defense takes a hit, but the opponent also has to keep us from scoring as well.


We have a winner. :D

Net. Net. We win 91-86 instead of 84-80. That's all that matters.

Mourning
08-09-2004, 01:55 PM
" there is NO WAY Peja will get the same numbers he got in SacTown with the fluid-fast paced offense they play.


I don't buy that. I think JO's such a tough cover one-on-one that Peja will get a ton of open looks when he's doubled.

But I still don't think it's a good move.


Thing IMO is The Kings before this season had Webber and Divac, both threats on the inside and med-range and great passing, Christie a pretty good long range shooter (if a little ehmmm... shifting between good and bad on offense, though his D is definitely good) Bibby and Bobby jackson at PG, so with the Kings and their passing talent on every position and their running game, combined with their length and offensive firepower on not only BOTH positions in the paint ASWELL as the enormous firepower of them from mid-range and the offensive firepower from the guard and SF position from med and long-range made this team HARD to cover, I dont think Jeff or Tins has the shooting ability any of SacTowns players had, even though Tins has been quite good in the past two play-offs (him getting injured vs the Pistons is what HURT us the most against them IMO).

I dont believe Peja will get those numbers here, again with less offensive minded talented players in the starting 5 (shooting and passing wise) AND with a team philosophy which doesn't promote offensive playing that much. Also his higher intensity on defense is bound to cost quite some energy too, which is only logocal to conclude he will have less energy to use on offense, except if he were to get a much better condition.

Im not saying we will suck at all, but I dont expect us to be as good as we are now either, just my opinion.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Mourning
08-09-2004, 01:59 PM
Yes, our defense takes a hit, but the opponent also has to keep us from scoring as well.


We have a winner. :D

Net. Net. We win 91-86 instead of 84-80. That's all that matters.


Offcourse, shooting "woes" occur more than defensive "woes". So, what happens if we shoot like ****, which EVEN with Peja is bound to happen during games?

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

ChicagoJ
08-09-2004, 02:04 PM
I dont believe Peja will get those numbers here, again with less offensive minded talented players in the starting 5 (shooting and passing wise) AND with a team philosophy which doesn't promote offensive playing that much. Also his higher intensity on defense is bound to cost quite some energy too, which is only logocal to conclude he will have less energy to use on offense, except if he were to get a much better condition.

Im not saying we will suck at all, but I dont expect us to be as good as we are now either, just my opinion.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Are you forgetting about Rick's handling of the offense for Larry Bird's teams. Rick's a pretty good defensive coach, but at the offensive end he can be tremendous. He knew he had signficant challenges to work with last season, namely an unbalanced roster without a consistent perimeter threat; our offense was efficient although not pretty. With more skill to work with, our offense could be better than Sacremento's or just about any other team's (maybe not Dallas, Nellie *is* an offensive-genious even though he can't seem to do anything else right anymore.)

ChicagoJ
08-09-2004, 02:07 PM
Yes, our defense takes a hit, but the opponent also has to keep us from scoring as well.


We have a winner. :D

Net. Net. We win 91-86 instead of 84-80. That's all that matters.


Offcourse, shooting "woes" occur more than defensive "woes". So, what happens if we shoot like ****, which EVEN with Peja is bound to happen during games?

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

You're stumbling into my philosophy. Put your five best offensive players on the court, and teach them to play effective team defense. Team defense is all about hustle and positioning. And with your five best offensive players on the court, you can survive individual player's droughts. Diversification doesn't just have to be in your stock portfolio. And, as Slick says, there are one or two nights every season where you just "can't hit the broad side of the barn" so you live with it an move on.

Unclebuck
08-09-2004, 02:23 PM
Our biggest weakness is not center it is PERIMETER DEFENSE. Without Ron it might be the worst of any playoff team. Starting lineup of Tinsley, Reggie and Peja. I might have to start drinking during games next season

:alcohol::alcohol:

I'm assuming you were drunk during all the games in the late 90's when the Pacers started Jackson, Reggie and Mullin? And during the Finals with Jackson, Reggie and Jalen?

You might not remember it due to your :alcohol:, but they played pretty good team ball......


Jackson - Tinsley
Miller - Miller(Jackson)
Mullin - Stojakovic
Davis -Foster
Smits -O'Neal






I loved the late 90's team because they got to the Finals once and the ECf 3 times. Their offense was fun to watch and they were very well coached. Dick Harter got as much defense out of that team as anyone could have. That was an extremely veteran and smart team. But the lack of good defensive players drove me crazy. When Reggie is your best perimeter defender :o MR, I liked the mid 90's team much better and I liked last year's team a lot better than the late 90's team because of that lack of defense.

Doug
08-09-2004, 02:24 PM
I do not like this trade.

I think we get weaker and softer and worse. While Detroit and Miami got stronger and tougher and better.

I think that our chances of winning the NBA championship just went down the tubes.

The only good thing is that neither Detroit or Miami have a strength that Ron matches up against. Miami is strong at the 1 and the 5, and I didn't think Ron was particularly effective against Rip.

But I still don't lilke this. Grrrrrrrrrr.

Ron must really be a HUGE pain in the butt behind the scenes.

Does this make trading Al unnecessary?


Doug you have very succinctly hit on every issue involved here. I agree with everything you said.


I do need to say. If this trade goes down.

Our biggest weakness is not center it is PERIMETER DEFENSE. Without Ron it might be the worst of any playoff team. Starting lineup of Tinsley, Reggie and Peja. I might have to start drinking during games next season

:alcohol::alcohol:.



Oh, Boo Hoo, "The Sky is Falling, The Sky is Falling".

Cmon, give Bird and Walsh some credit. Do you really think they are going to do something that is going to make the Pacers a worse team? Do you think they were sitting around the office this summer saying "what can we do to really screw up our good team?". I kinda doubt it.


I never said they would doing this on purpose. Not sure where that came from.



You are making a lot of assumptions in your pessimistic view of the world.


As are you in your optimistic one. In fact, I'd say that generally speaking optimists rely more on shaky assuptions that pessimists do.



You are assuming that Ron Artest would be a solid contributor, level-headed, and a non-distruptive member of the team. You seem to forget the 4-20 shooting nights. The forced shots. The ill-advised three-point attempts. The flagrant fouls. The dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble oops-the-shot-clock-is-running-down-better-throw-up-a-bad-shot.


I forget nothing. You take the good with the bad. Are you saying Peja doesn't have bad games, off nights?



You are assuming that Reggie Miller will be the starter all season, remain uninjured, and play major minutes. I don't think any of those things will happen.


Why don't you think so?



You are assuming Peja is some kind of stiff...at least one would get that impression from hearing you whine. For crying out loud, he's GREAT!! He's the best outside shooter in the NBA. He's a great passer. JO will be the biggest beneficiary of this trade. The Pacers offense is going to open up and it will not look at ALL like it did last year.


Where did I say that Peja is some kind of stiff?



The Pacers defense will still be good. SJackson and Freddy will be great defenders. Peja will be a better defender in the new system because he will be coached by a defensive-minded coach for the first time, and the Pacers defensive system will remain the same.


And I made assuptions?

While I'm a great believer in team defense over individual defense, Ron is a very special defender.



I think Larry Bird and Donnie Walsh are a basketball geniuses. I think they are about to deal with a problem before it becomes a BIG problem.

The same could be said when the Bulls sent Artest here. How did that work out for them?

Unclebuck
08-09-2004, 02:33 PM
"


Plus, this makes our team defense better because we don't have to rely on just one person.


First let me say I hope I have not taken your statement out of context. And let me say I hope you explain your point a little further.

But having said that, I must say your comment is one of the most incredible things I have read in awhile.

Please explain to me how taking Artest out of the lineup makes the team defense any better. Ron is a great individual and team defender. I can think of 15 reasons to trade Ron, but imprving the team defnese is not on the list of the 15 reasons, nor the 100 reasons

maybe we should take J.O. out of the lineup so our team offense is better.

Unclebuck
08-09-2004, 02:36 PM
[quote=beast23]Yes, our defense takes a hit, but the opponent also has to keep us from scoring as well.






I see you are a bottom line guy.

OK. Let me state this very plainly.

The increase in offense will not offset the decrease in defense. So I see a net loss.


jay, you will love this. I say Artest is worth about 15 wins a season. Peja might be worth 8. I see a net loss of 7. 54 wins.

MZahm
08-09-2004, 02:39 PM
Why are people acting like trading Ron for an MVP candidate is a slap in the face? I agree that Ron brings a hell of a lot but if Peja isn't going to stretch defenses then no one is. If you could guarantee that Ron would keep trying to improve on his mental lapses I might be against this trade, but how can you be sure that Ron isn't going to unravel at some point in the future? Keeping a cool head does not come naturally to him. His lapses in the playoffs where he clocked Wade and Hamilton could have been him starting to crack after holding it in for a whole season.

I wouldn't mind hanging on to Ron, but his value is not likely to ever get higher, and if his temper reasserts itself it's quite likely to plunge. If we can get Peja, I'd do it for the simple reason that I wouldn't be worried about him just losing it at a critical time. Peja is not some unproven commodity. If it was so easy to *** him down, he wouldn't have been the second leading scorer in the league last year.

Unclebuck
08-09-2004, 02:42 PM
[quote=Jay@Section222][quote=beast23]Yes, our defense takes a hit, but the opponent also has to keep us from scoring as well.



You're stumbling into my philosophy. Put your five best offensive players on the court, and teach them to play effective team defense. Team defense is all about hustle and positioning. And with your five best offensive players on the court, you can survive individual player's droughts. Diversification doesn't just have to be in your stock portfolio. And, as Slick says, there are one or two nights every season where you just "can't hit the broad side of the barn" so you live with it an move on.

_______________________________________________




Jay, after about 12 months I finally have figured out why we disagree from time to time.

I completely disagree with your comments.

Defense is not just hustle and positioning. Not even close. :o:o:o:o .

Artest has great defensive talent. he has a combo that I have never seen before. he has quick hands and strong hands, incredibly quick feet.

Using the word hustle for a player like Artest IMO is an insult. He is so much more than a hustle player.

Young
08-09-2004, 02:47 PM
Why are people acting like trading Ron for an MVP candidate is a slap in the face? I agree that Ron brings a hell of a lot but if Peja isn't going to stretch defenses then no one is. If you could guarantee that Ron would keep trying to improve on his mental lapses I might be against this trade, but how can you be sure that Ron isn't going to unravel at some point in the future? Keeping a cool head does not come naturally to him. His lapses in the playoffs where he clocked Wade and Hamilton could have been him starting to crack after holding it in for a whole season.

I wouldn't mind hanging on to Ron, but his value is not likely to ever get higher, and if his temper reasserts itself it's quite likely to plunge. If we can get Peja, I'd do it for the simple reason that I wouldn't be worried about him just losing it at a critical time. Peja is not some unproven commodity. If it was so easy to *** him down, he wouldn't have been the second leading scorer in the league last year.

Some just don't want to trade Ron because they are biased. Others have concenrs about Peja.

I'm not worried about his playoff performances or lack of. Both Ron and him have sucked in the playoffs. Both could start to do better but the bottom line is both have sucked. Ron forgets how to play team ball. He did vs Detroit and Miami.

I'm really worried about the perminter defense though. Tinsley doesn't concern me much but Reggie and Peja do. We need to have just that one defense stopper out there. Can Jackson be that player? Can Fred Jones be that player? Not if they are on the bench. Thats the only concern I have about swaping the two players.

Dr Huxtable
08-09-2004, 02:53 PM
UncleBuck-

What I meant was it will make other players step up and play better defense, making our team defense better. They won't have to rely on Ron anymore.

Mourning
08-09-2004, 03:30 PM
"Some just don't want to trade Ron because they are biased. Others have concenrs about Peja."

Offcourse, the reverse might also very well be true, certainly in your case. You have been advocating moving him from basically the get-go.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Mourning
08-09-2004, 03:41 PM
UncleBuck-

What I meant was it will make other players step up and play better defense, making our team defense better. They won't have to rely on Ron anymore.

yeah, that works ... in a perfect world!;)

Come on, you must really be joking. Artest fired up our defense by his non-stop warrior attitude and intimidation of opposing star players the past season, he AND the teamstaff were the cataclysts IMO for a lot of our players to step up the defense.
Following by example.

I hope you remember how we played defense pre-Artest??? Its not like our players are non-defenders at all, but the staff and Artest definitely were the vital ingredients to lifting our individual and team defense to the highest level. But, only staff preaching D is not enough you need a specialist to lead.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Mourning
08-09-2004, 04:12 PM
Peja only has a contract for 2 years and a 3rd year player option, I think:confused: Ron has 4 years, right? These are the correct contract number of years, right?

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

themachotaco
08-09-2004, 04:20 PM
I like Rommie's comments on the subject, you are on either of these three sides... not wanting Ron to leave, not wanting Peja, or just not sure how this will work for our defense.

One thing missing from the discussions on defense are the fact that we have perhaps the best 3-coach tandem in the league for defense. Show me a better defensive minded bench than Carlisle-Brown-O'Neill. Freddie will not be our only 'good' perimeter defender, either. SJackson is no slouch defensively and Carlisle was very good last year at making situational substitutions -- ie. offensve/defense switches for Reggie/Freddie. The same could happen this year for Reggie/Freddie and Peja/Jackson.

Re: we only have one post scorer. Someone pointed out the real reason to include JJ might be to open up that roster spot to sign someone else. This move makes the most sense if we sign a 4 or a 5 afterwards. This would totally become a team built around JO... and I don't have a problem with that.

(Not to be totally off topic but did anyone see JO's comments in the Star article today about suggesting Dampier take a 1-year deal somewhere... did we perhaps shoot ourselves in the foot on the AJ deal by giving him part of our MLE? If Damp does decide to take a 1-year deal would he rather go to NY for the full MLE or here for part of it?)

ChicagoJ
08-09-2004, 04:23 PM
Jay, after about 12 months I finally have figured out why we disagree from time to time.

I completely disagree with your comments.

Defense is not just hustle and positioning. Not even close. :o:o:o:o .

Artest has great defensive talent. he has a combo that I have never seen before. he has quick hands and strong hands, incredibly quick feet.

Using the word hustle for a player like Artest IMO is an insult. He is so much more than a hustle player.


I'll comment later tonight... gotta run...

Young
08-09-2004, 04:35 PM
"Some just don't want to trade Ron because they are biased. Others have concenrs about Peja."

Offcourse, the reverse might also very well be true, certainly in your case. You have been advocating moving him from basically the get-go.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

And I say move him if he is a problem. You make it sound like its a bad thing to want Ron traded. I love his defense, his heart but I hate his team ball on offense. He is selfish. Only one person can convience me that he is not selfish and thats Ron Artest with his play on the court.

But its not his play on court that has managment concerned. Now is it? Nope. It sounds like he has been a problem off the court.

Mourning
08-09-2004, 04:45 PM
"Some just don't want to trade Ron because they are biased. Others have concenrs about Peja."

Offcourse, the reverse might also very well be true, certainly in your case. You have been advocating moving him from basically the get-go.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

And I say move him if he is a problem. You make it sound like its a bad thing to want Ron traded. I love his defense, his heart but I hate his team ball on offense. He is selfish. Only one person can convience me that he is not selfish and thats Ron Artest with his play on the court.

But its not his play on court that has managment concerned. Now is it? Nope. It sounds like he has been a problem off the court.

I dont recall any complains in the regular season or the 1st and 2nd rounds this year. I might have missed them, offcourse. Anyway, I feel you just dont want to give him the chance to improve himself, like he did in this past season already compared to the season previous to that. And when you look at his numbers they seem to indicate that he is not THAT
BAD offensively, either. It certainly seems to be working for by far the major part. Come on this guy is just 24 and is still learning. He hasnt even moved into his peak years yet.

Further, I have heard no substantiated FACTS regarding the problems with Artest, only rumours and suggestions. Now, true, sometimes a lot of rumours means there is some sort of thruth in it, but that is certainly not always the case.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Young
08-09-2004, 05:01 PM
And I say move him if he is a problem. You make it sound like its a bad thing to want Ron traded. I love his defense, his heart but I hate his team ball on offense. He is selfish. Only one person can convience me that he is not selfish and thats Ron Artest with his play on the court.

But its not his play on court that has managment concerned. Now is it? Nope. It sounds like he has been a problem off the court.

I dont recall any complains in the regular season or the 1st and 2nd rounds this year. I might have missed them, offcourse. Anyway, I feel you just dont want to give him the chance to improve himself, like he did in this past season already compared to the season previous to that. And when you look at his numbers they seem to indicate that he is not THAT
BAD offensively, either. It certainly seems to be working for by far the major part. Come on this guy is just 24 and is still learning. He hasnt even moved into his peak years yet.

Further, I have heard no substantiated FACTS regarding the problems with Artest, only rumours and suggestions. Now, true, sometimes a lot of rumours means there is some sort of thruth in it, but that is certainly not always the case.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:[/quote]

Players weakness get exposed in the playoffs.

Besides, how the hell can I complain about him when we are winning 61 ganes?:confused: You actually think I thought him being selfish was a problem when we won all those games? No. I feel it was a problem when we lost in the playoffs because his weakness was really exposed. Some because of Detroit's defense and some because selfish is his weakness.

And I was completely against trading him after his pain in the *** season. I wanted him back because I believed he would improve. Do I think he will improve from his mental mistakes? No. Do I know he can? Defentily.

Is there a stat that says a player is a ball hog? I don't think so. Now game footage does. Oh and hey, game footage is what really counts. But stats are nice.

And just to go off topic Peja isn't washed up and has just a good a chance to improve as Ron. Neither are Mr. Big Shot in the playoffs but both can improve.

And no there is no facts that Artest has caused some problems. But like i've said before only management knows.

But it would make sense.

- Wanting to stay in Miami for vacation with a couple of days off instead of going back to Indy.
- DA saying he [a reliable person] doesn't expect Artest to be a Pacer when training camp starts.
- Reports of Pacers inquring about Peja in June?
- Also heard about Mike Miller and Bonzi Wells before too.

SoupIsGood
08-09-2004, 05:07 PM
Well, I think that comparing Artest's defense an peja's offense is useless, as they are both exceptional. So I think the key to this trade lies in comparing Peja's defense to Ron's offense. I've thought about this, and even done a little looking into it, and I personally think that Ron is better offensivly than peja defensivly. I think what this means is that the Kings will get the better player in return. Whether this is a good trade for the pacers or not, after you toss in Ron's attitude, or problems scoring, spacing, our Team D, and other intangibles, is hard to tell. If I had to decide now, I would say this is a bad trade for the pacers, and wouldn't do it. However, if I were the GM, a pick from Sacramento may all I may need to make me pull the trigger, if I truly believed Ron's offcourt problems would only become worse.

Mourning
08-09-2004, 05:26 PM
I never claimed Peja is washed up. But, logic dictates that when you have 2 players one 24 the other 27 that the 24-year old is likely to improve more, and I certainly think that is the case with Ron with his warrior mentality he will do about anything to improve his game, offensively and defensively. So, we know his motivation and his work ethic. What do we know about Peja's work ethic? This is not a sarcastic, but a serious question, because I honestly dont really know.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Mourning
08-09-2004, 05:30 PM
So, bottomline is, Rommie, you decide on Ron's "fate" on one series? Because, he had off-court problems the year before aswell. Or maybe, you just wanted to keep him like you wrote to get his value up (and than trade him no matter what?)

Anyway, if its really just the one bad series than I wonder ... when will we see the first "trade Peja" topics?:dancers:

;)

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Young
08-09-2004, 11:36 PM
So, bottomline is, Rommie, you decide on Ron's "fate" on one series? Because, he had off-court problems the year before aswell. Or maybe, you just wanted to keep him like you wrote to get his value up (and than trade him no matter what?)

Anyway, if its really just the one bad series than I wonder ... when will we see the first "trade Peja" topics?:dancers:

;)

Regards,

Mourning:cool:


I'm not deciding Ron's "fate" in one series. I'm saying the bottom line is both have sucked in the playoffs and both are just as likely to improve. Now ofcourse given age Ron has more chances to improve.

And its not one bad series...its 2.:laugh:

It started in the Miami series and just got worse vs Detroit.

And as far as a trade Peja thread..please. I won't complain about Peja if we are a better team. Thats all that matters. And its not easy to say we will be. The defense will be in question until proven otherwise.

If we keep Ron I will not have a problem with it though. I will be concerned about his team play though but I know he very well can improve.

Young
08-09-2004, 11:43 PM
I never claimed Peja is washed up. But, logic dictates that when you have 2 players one 24 the other 27 that the 24-year old is likely to improve more, and I certainly think that is the case with Ron with his warrior mentality he will do about anything to improve his game, offensively and defensively. So, we know his motivation and his work ethic. What do we know about Peja's work ethic? This is not a sarcastic, but a serious question, because I honestly dont really know.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Guess I should have responded to this post first. :laugh: Oh well.

And I don't know anything about Peja really. Thats the problem I do have with the trade. Not will Peja improve because he is the best shooter in the game and a good passer. Hopefully his defense would improve.

My concern with this trade is how are team will be without a defenseive stopper out there on the perminter. Having Reggie and Peja just would not cut it. Jackson and Peja...maybe?:confused:

Basicly there are alot of ifs in this trade atleast if it were made. We, as fans, dont know how are team would play until the team actually plays so personally, if a trade like this were made, id be for it because I really do not think that Bird and DW would make a move without being confidence it would work out. I think we all have to trust management to do the right thing. They know what we don't and they know what they are doing.

Young
08-09-2004, 11:44 PM
You know a little part of me doesn't want Ron traded. Just because I would play extra close attention to his team ball play throughout the season.