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View Full Version : Jackson/Peja vs. Harrington/Artest



bulletproof
08-07-2004, 10:42 PM
Saw this over on RATS. It's a comparison of the numbers between these two combos should a trade occur to bring Peja in for Artest.

Jackson/Peja combined:

42.3 pts
10.9 reb.
5.2 assists
3.11 steals
.454 FG% (1201/2647)
.392 3pt% (385/981)
.868 FT% (627/722)


Harrington/Artest combined:

31.6 pts
11.7 reb.
5.4 assists
3.09 steals
.440 FG% (889/2021)
.301 3pt% (96/319)
.729 FT% (504/691)


Please note the huge disparity in 3-point shots and percentage.

MSA2CF
08-07-2004, 10:48 PM
It's too bad those statistics don't include the defensive prescence/etc. that Ron brings to the plate versus what Mr. Stojackovic does. I'd greatly be interested in seeing those.

Hicks
08-07-2004, 10:56 PM
Jackson is no Artest, be he is a solid defender and in this team defense will do fine in Ron's place. He won't lock people down, but he certainly will not get embarrassed.

As long as we have this coaching staff, team defense will never be a problem unless we trade the rest of our roster for the Bobcats or something.

MSA2CF
08-07-2004, 10:58 PM
Hicks, I do share the view that the Pacers have one awesome coaching staff, but the players have to play the game, not them. The players do matter.

canyoufeelit
08-07-2004, 11:02 PM
Hicks, I do share the view that the Pacers have one awesome coaching staff, but the players have to play the game, not them. The players do matter.

Well we have this Jermaine O'Neal fella and I hear he's a pretty good defender too

Hicks
08-07-2004, 11:05 PM
OK, I'll use the Pistons as an example.

Who guarded Billups last year? Tinsley and Johnson.

Who will guard them now? Tinsley and Johnson

Who guarded Hamilton (or tried) last year? Reggie mainly, Fred and Ron sparingly.

Who now?

Jackson mainly, Reggie sparingly.

Rasheed? Foster, JO, Al, Croshere

Now? Foster, JO, Croshere

Ben? Uhh... not much intense guarding needed, but JO mainly.

Now? Same.

The only change is Tayshaun Prince. Their 4th option on offense. Oh wow, we're really f***ed when we have to switch from the DPOY to an average defender when it's the team's FOURTH OPTION. Woah is me! :o :sarcasm: :rolleyes:

Relax. :D

The people that do the scoring for Detroit are going to be guarded by essentially the same cast of characters.

canyoufeelit
08-07-2004, 11:12 PM
Ben? Uhh... not much intense guarding needed, but JO mainly.

:laugh: No kidding. I discovered the secret to guarding Ben Wallace a long time ago, you can't give him wide open looks because he will knock it down, but if you put a hand in his face he will miss like 99% of the time

Kegboy
08-07-2004, 11:34 PM
No offense Hicks, but I get really sick of the Detroit matchup argument. Detroit isn't going to be on the top of the mountain forever, and even if they were, you still have to beat other teams besides Detroit to win a championship.

Remember when Artest was out in both of the Sacramento games, and we'd say we would have won if he'd been in there to guard Peja. Well, let's play that forward a bit.

We make the trade. We beat Detroit in round 2 (thanks to the new seeding rules), and get past Miami in the ECF. And guess who's waiting for us in the Finals. Yep, you guessed it, Sacramento.

Yep, the Kings were able to knock off the Shaq-less Lakers, and, after finally having a healthy team for once, beat the Spurs (or Wolves; I think they'd match up well with either.)

So, then, we beat Detroit, but look at the matchups we face now:

Tinsley vs. Bibby - I like Jamaal, but come on.
Jackson vs. Christie - Christie's pretty athletic, even at his age. I'd bet he could keep up with Sax.
Stojakovic vs. Artest - Uh, Peja's not a quick guard (i.e. Ron's weakness).
O'Neal vs. Webber - Yeah, we know JO's better, but not prohibitively so.
Foster vs. Miller - Jeff would do a good job on him, but Brad's still the better player.

So, there you go. We got past Detroit, but that's a bad matchup, IMO.

It comes down to this. Do you believe Detroit is a much better team than us, and we can't beat them, as is. Or, do you believe that we played them damn close with JO and Tinsley hurt, and Ron and Al playing like *****. With a healthy team that's had a baptism by the playoff fire (not to mention losing The Blackhole) I don't see any reason why we can't beat them as is.

I'll say it again. You can't convince me we're a better team on the floor with Peja instead of Ron. Now, granted, if there are issues off the floor that necesitate getting rid of Ron, then hell yes, make this trade, cause you ain't getting a better deal. But it still hurts us.

MSA2CF
08-07-2004, 11:34 PM
canyoufeelit, I didn't say Jermaine wasn't a good defensive player. He is.

Hicks, I would respond to your post, but I'm too slow to understand it.

TheSauceMaster
08-07-2004, 11:42 PM
I'll say it again. You can't convince me we're a better team on the floor with Peja instead of Ron. Now, granted, if there are issues off the floor that necesitate getting rid of Ron, then hell yes, make this trade, cause you ain't getting a better deal. But it still hurts us.

Great Post KegBoy , I didnt comment on the whole thing cause I agree with you pretty much word for word , but I just wanted to quote what I thought was really important in what you said , and I agree with that 100%

Hicks
08-07-2004, 11:42 PM
Kegoy, I don't honestly believe the Kings will make the Finals. Webber's not getting any healthier, and I belive the Spurs are the team to beat.

And, guess what? Spurs are more like Detroit than Sacramento.

Is Peja gonna get destroyed by Bruce Bowen? Didn't think so. Bowen will guard him well I'm sure, but Peja does have 4" on him ya know.

Jackson will guard Ginobili just fine. Or at least you must admit Ron wouldn't do a BETTER job; because Manu is pretty quick/fast.

I'll leave out the rest because it doesn't concern this trade.

And my bottom line is still, it's not just about individual matchups, it's our team defense that made us good last year, not our individual defenders. We had an even better team of individual defenders under Isiah in 2003, but we were a mediocre team defense then.

Team defense does not require a lot of great defenders, yet even without Ron we still have a handful of good defenders. Our team D will not sink very much, yet our O will get a big boost. And that's the most important thing to me. We can argue individual matchups for months on end, but in the end it's team vs team, and our team defense will be pretty good, and our team O will be at least pretty good, if not better.

bulletproof
08-07-2004, 11:42 PM
I'll say it again. You can't convince me we're a better team on the floor with Peja instead of Ron. Now, granted, if there are issues off the floor that necesitate getting rid of Ron, then hell yes, make this trade, cause you ain't getting a better deal. But it still hurts us.

Or helps us.

Kegboy
08-07-2004, 11:45 PM
As for the percentages up top, there's not doubt that Sax/Peja are much better shooters. But, there are two factors that the statistics don't reflect. One, I'd bet Al and Ron's D is 10 points better, which negates the ppg difference. Two, Sax and Peja not only played in high-tempo run-and-gun offenses, but were the first option. We all know Peja's not gonna average nearly as much in Rick's offense. And Sax isn't going to average 18 as the third option, while Al could very well average 18 in Atlanta.

obnoxiousmodesty
08-07-2004, 11:47 PM
No player can replace Ron Artest. I don't think anyone is trying to state Ronnie is easily tossed aside. However, if DW/LB are adamant about trading Ronnie away, then we're not going to find any player better in return than Peja Stojakavic. No, Peja is not a defensive stalwart, nor is he known for defense at all. Yet, by all accounts Peja is quite servicable on defense, and can only improve under the tutelage of the Pacers' coaching staff.

The Pacers defense is not going to fall apart if Ronnie is traded. Indiana will simply fall back upon their already strong team defense to carry the load. Yes, I believe Pacer opponents will have an easier time scoring if Ron is gone; nevertheless, I also believe the Pacers will have an easier time scoring if Peja is added. You do not require an elite defensive player to possess great team defense. Never mind that now, for if Ron goes, it will be because management has concluded his negative influence upon the team outweights the positives.

I think the memory of the ECF is still burned into people's minds. We saw the Pacers fight back and forth against Detroit and come up short. Ron Artest helped the Pacers in several of those games with his defense. Ronnie also hurt the Pacers with his offense. I'm not condeming him based upon one playoff series. What I'm saying is that Ronnie is not the key to helping us defeat Detroit because to beat Detroit you must loosen up their defense. Now, can Ron Artest do that? I do not believe so. Offensively, Ronnie bullies his way into the paint and intimidates. You don't intimidate the Pistons, nor do you force your way to the basket. We watched him try again and again, the operate word being "try". In my opinion, Detroit is a huge hurdle on the way to a championship, and our current team as it stands will not clear that hurdle.

I love Ronnie's game. I remember watching him play at St. John's. I believe he is a good man. He brings invaluable assets onto the court. Yet, for the reasons I listed, I will support this trade for Peja if it occurs.

Kegboy
08-07-2004, 11:50 PM
You're forgetting about Barry, Hicks. I think he's a matchup nightmare if we don't have Ron.

MSA2CF
08-07-2004, 11:52 PM
Take Ben Wallace out of Detroit. Is the team's defense still extremely intimidating? One player can make a huge difference to a team defense.

Hicks
08-07-2004, 11:54 PM
You're forgetting about Barry, Hicks. I think he's a matchup nightmare if we don't have Ron.

Barry's a combo guard, not a SF. If he plays SF he's dwarfed no matter who we play their: Peja, Bender, Jackson.

Kegboy
08-08-2004, 12:01 AM
Okay, for those of you that think the world begins and ends with Detroit, I've got another way of looking at this for you.

Everybody says Ron played like crap against the Pistons, right? Well, did anybody ever think that wasn't just him going off his meds, but maybe Prince had something to do with it, too?

At least Ron made Tayshaun work on the offensive end, and he beat on him at every opportunity. If we were to play Detroit again, Larry would tell Prince, "You've got one job. Stay on Peja like glue. Before the end of the game, I wanna know what flavor gum he's chewing." Do you think Prince couldn't do it, after we all saw the number he did on Kobe. And he'd have free-reign on the other end of the floor. From what I've read on the Sac board, Peja has grown into a serviceable defender, but he's still soft. He'd get beaten to a pulp against Detroit.

bulletproof
08-08-2004, 12:01 AM
Take Ben Wallace out of Detroit. Is the team's defense still extremely intimidating? One player can make a huge difference to a team defense.

Raindrops keep fallin' on my head
But that doesn't mean my eyes will soon be turnin' red
Cryin's not for me
'Cause I'm never gonna stop the rain by complainin'
Because I'm free
Nothin's worryin' me

rm1369
08-08-2004, 12:04 AM
You're forgetting about Barry, Hicks. I think he's a matchup nightmare if we don't have Ron.

I'd take my chances with freddie or jackson

Kegboy
08-08-2004, 12:05 AM
Take Ben Wallace out of Detroit. Is the team's defense still extremely intimidating? One player can make a huge difference to a team defense.

Raindrops keep fallin' on my head
But that doesn't mean my eyes will soon be turnin' red
Cryin's not for me
'Cause I'm never gonna stop the rain by complainin'
Because I'm free
Nothin's worryin' me






:disturbed:

Burt_Reincarnated
08-08-2004, 12:14 AM
the slight offensive comparisons which way in favor of SJ and Peja do not even come close IMO to the dominating presence and Deef Ron and AL would provide.

Give me Ron and AL any time, anywhere, over SJ and Peja. Talk about whats good for the team as far as position goes. And I still say AL and Ron would be better for the club, you dont get rid of 2 dominating defensive forces for a outside shot...

This offseason is driving me crazy... :scream: :shudder: :alcohol:

Hicks
08-08-2004, 12:15 AM
Wait, now Al is a dominating defender? :crazy:

bulletproof
08-08-2004, 12:19 AM
Look, one way or another Ron is going to be traded. And to get someone of equal value, we'd have to give up too much. Anyone else close to Ron's level makes $12 million or more. With Peja, it's straight up. It's really a no brainer. As obnoxiousmodesty said, we're not going to find a better player in return for Ron than Peja.

So come on in, boys, the water's fine.

Burt_Reincarnated
08-08-2004, 12:24 AM
Wait, now Al is a dominating defender? :crazy:


what? you Don't think AL is a dominating defender? So as soon as AL leaves the team he gets downgraded huh? Al is one of the best defenders in the league, you of all people I thought would know that Hicks. :whoknows:

BAH

TheSauceMaster
08-08-2004, 12:38 AM
I agree if Ron has too and I really mean Has to be Traded !!!! I can't complain about Peja in exchange , I am not gonna be a total homer and say Ron is safe , it's the NBA and anything can happen , this almost reminds me of the Dale Davis trade as alot of people were umm really upset over it and I don't think that turned out too bad ;)

You guys need to remember there is alot of stuff we don't see off the court and outta public eye , maybe Donnie, Larry and Rick think that Ron is a Fine player but not the Key piece to the Puzzle . To be honest without knowing all the key pieces to the puzzle were all just guessing at what Management my be thinking,

Please name me some names that you would rather trade Artest for that are Acutally available and would atleast some what compensate the loss of Artest , in a worst case , must trade senario.

I hope Ron doesn't get traded , but I can't turn my cheek and keep saying NO, NO , NO if management thinks it is nessary. Really I dunno if there is a Better trade out there if Ron must be shoveled off.

Unclebuck
08-08-2004, 12:55 AM
If this trade goes down, I see no reason at all for Reggie to play at all this season. Pacers will need the defense that Fred Jones and Jax can bring.

When Tinsley, Reggie, and Peja are on the floor togther I worry about the perimeter defense. And keep in mind that I think Peja's defense is unerrated. But when Peja is your best perimeter defender, That worries me a great deal. I don't care who the coaches are you need better perimeter defenders than that.

bulletproof
08-08-2004, 12:57 AM
I thought you were sunburned and going to bed. :p

Unclebuck
08-08-2004, 01:00 AM
I thought you were sunburned and going to bed. :p



:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


Oops.

I am just about to.


I am going to bed, I had to edit this one line post two times.

TheSauceMaster
08-08-2004, 01:07 AM
Wait, now Al is a dominating defender? :crazy:


what? you Don't think AL is a dominating defender? So as soon as AL leaves the team he gets downgraded huh? Al is one of the best defenders in the league, you of all people I thought would know that Hicks. :whoknows:

BAH

Well since no one else wants to disaree with this , I will and I think someone is hitting the :alcohol::alcohol::alcohol::alcohol: , sorry that's just insane too say that.

Arcadian
08-08-2004, 02:44 AM
I don't think it's fair comparing the stats like that. It makes us a different team. A team which needs JO a lot more so lets hope he is in the KG and Duncan catagory.

We lose the top defensive stopper and our big man rotation will be bad with the absence of Al. On the plus side we have players who will complement JO better.

SkipperZ
08-08-2004, 03:31 AM
Look, one way or another Ron is going to be traded. And to get someone of equal value, we'd have to give up too much. Anyone else close to Ron's level makes $12 million or more. With Peja, it's straight up. It's really a no brainer. As obnoxiousmodesty said, we're not going to find a better player in return for Ron than Peja.

So come on in, boys, the water's fine.



I agree that getting fair value for Ron would be difficult. Peja is as close as we would ever have a chance of gettign this side of our chance at getting Tmac earlier.

But you say Artest is getting traded one way or the other. I think many disagree. IF you were Larry Bird, and if there was no off the court problems with Ron (In game headcase history DOES count), from a PURELY basketball standpoint in terms of the team you are putting out on the floor, would you rather have Peja or Ron with the team we have now?

I would pick Ron for these reasons.

1. Ron brings so much to the table in terms of intensity, physical presence, intimidation, etc. Things Peja has not shown.

2. Reggie, Bender, SJax, Croshere and Tinsley by the percentage numbers are all capable three point shooters. None are in the field of Peja, (the best outside shooter in the game bar none right now) but many great teams dont have a shooter like that.

3. The argument for bringing Peja here is that he opens up the floor for Jermaine. I think the MAIN thing that would open up the floor for Jermaine is Jermaine himself. If he was a better passer out of the post, especially being doubled, teams wouldn't double him as hard and early. If he didn't resort to the fadeaway and start taking it strong (Last year, there were less dunks, less layups and less of that beautiful left handed baby hook he used to do so well in my opinion) he would get more foul calls and teams would not gang up on him inside so aggressively.

Hoop
08-08-2004, 07:05 AM
I'll say it again. You can't convince me we're a better team on the floor with Peja instead of Ron. Now, granted, if there are issues off the floor that necesitate getting rid of Ron, then hell yes, make this trade, cause you ain't getting a better deal. But it still hurts us.

Or helps us.

Hurts :p

able
08-08-2004, 07:31 AM
OK, I've been silent in all this long enough :D

1. Al gone is a good thing (tm)
No he was not a very good defender, he could take a charge, but was beaten more nights then he ever stopped anything. Slick was very hard on him most of the time for his lackadaisy defense, he simlpy had other things on his mind then defending.
Al hurt the team by being a blackhole, he reduced open chances by holding on to the ball when he could and should have passed the ball.

2. Trading Ron (IF it happens) is something that we do not decide, nor do we know the finer things, nor will we ever know. Sadly. But... Ron is VERY talented and I would not trade him, unless he was a pain in the locker room and JO and Reggie thought it better, which I don't think is the case.

3. If we can get Pedja, (which seems to be the correct spelling) then it certainly is the best value for value in a trade for Ron.
I don't buy the team defense argument that we will not lose a lot on defense, we will no matter what, but get this; If he's going to be traded anyway, then we will lose that anyway. so we will have to work around it.
Forgotten is Tins' imporvement last year and I am sure he will improve even more on defense and shooting this year, he has shown to be a hard worker and I think the trust management has given him (by NOT shopping for a starting PG) will be re-paid this year by a further improved Tins who will surprise many in the league and on this board.

4. JO "having to take it harder" (quote from above) "less fade-aways and jumpers" (you sure you were watching JO and not Al?) JO's play the past season (in which he still had a dominating 20 - 10) in general was given by the remainder of the offense, triple teams were not that rare on him and double were a guarantee, we had to little outside threats to lessen that, however his passing out of these double and triple teams was good, the fact that people do pass uip shots or miss them (which stops JO from getting the Ast) can not be blamed no him, his passing greatly improved, it is just a stat you don't see, like his defense, which is a lot better then most people give him credit for.
Do you guys really think Shaq names JO the only big man in the East he's worried about a mistake?
Do you think that his stats which are only comparable to KG, TD and the Diesel himself a mistake? or that they are as they are because he plays selfish? Because in all those cases you would be wrong.
I am pretty sure that a positive in a trade like this would be the fact that JO's Ast numebr would jump up, but also that his scoring would be up, people have to make a decision, and given JO the least bit of space would be just as fatal as not covering Sax, Pedja or Tins, not to mention Freddie, Cro, JB and Reggie.

5. Tins showed he can go inside very well, his litle floater is a gem, and his passing ability while in flight is phenomanal to say the least, we just haven't seen it that mich because the lane was clogged all the time, since we had to little outside threats.

6. Yes we will lose on defense, I already said that, but A. the Pistons are not the only team in the league we have to play and B. spreading the floor against them is a sure way to score, something they are not that incredibly good at. Even if they shut down Pedja, there is still Sax, Reggie, Tins, Cro, JB and least of all, JO.

In all, it will be a major change (IF it happens) but one that will not make our team better or worse, just different, but still a major contender.
The trade would be an All star for an All star, not to shabby I would say. and yes, the points lost on defense will be added to offense, and no, team defense will NOT recapture all losses, but the intangibles of likely improvement of JO's chances in the game would negate that.

Oh and please do not compare Webber to JO, they are no longer in the same class, JO is in rare air where Webber can only dream off, or like Al think he is.

JO is without a doubt one of the 10 best in this league, close to or in the top 5, so please, stop comparing :)
And yes in a team without Al and Ron but with Pedja and Sax providing the two are prepared to buy the team concept he will put up TD numbers.

Am I in favour of the trade: NO
Would i shout if it went down: NO
Would it make me think we had less chance to win it all: NO
Would it be exciting to see Pedja play on the Pacers: Yes

have a nice day :)

Snickers
08-08-2004, 12:33 PM
6. Yes we will lose on defense, I already said that, but A. the Pistons are not the only team in the league we have to play and B. spreading the floor against them is a sure way to score, something they are not that incredibly good at. Even if they shut down Pedja, there is still Sax, Reggie, Tins, Cro, JB and least of all, JO.

A. BLASPHEMY!! :flirt:

B. YES. Correct me if I'm wrong, but almost all of the games that the Pistons lost in the playoffs were when their opponents had hot outside shooting. I think the Bucks did it to them once, the Nets a few times, and the only games we won against them were when our shooting % was above 12. One was the game where Austin got hot from deep.

You don't fight fire with fire, you fight fire with outside shooting.

MSA2CF
08-08-2004, 01:51 PM
Take Ben Wallace out of Detroit. Is the team's defense still extremely intimidating? One player can make a huge difference to a team defense.

Raindrops keep fallin' on my head
But that doesn't mean my eyes will soon be turnin' red
Cryin's not for me
'Cause I'm never gonna stop the rain by complainin'
Because I'm free
Nothin's worryin' me


:rotflmao: I have no clue what point you're trying to make, if any.

bulletproof
08-08-2004, 02:43 PM
Take Ben Wallace out of Detroit. Is the team's defense still extremely intimidating? One player can make a huge difference to a team defense.

Raindrops keep fallin' on my head
But that doesn't mean my eyes will soon be turnin' red
Cryin's not for me
'Cause I'm never gonna stop the rain by complainin'
Because I'm free
Nothin's worryin' me


:rotflmao: I have no clue what point you're trying to make, if any.

Yeah, that might actually require you to think a little. :p

beast23
08-08-2004, 03:26 PM
OK, I've been silent in all this long enough :D

Am I in favour of the trade: NO
Would i shout if it went down: NO
Would it make me think we had less chance to win it all: NO
Would it be exciting to see Pedja play on the Pacers: Yes

have a nice day :)



All in all, pretty good post, Able.

I'm one of Artest's biggest supporters, as my handle would imply.

But one comment that I'd make:
Am I in favour of the trade: CAN"T MAKE UP MY MIND.

I'm usually a pretty decisive guy. I go with my beliefs until someone can provide a rational argument convincing me I'm wrong.

I would say one thing, just like so many others have said. If we've got to lose Ron, then Peja is a player that I could happily accept in return.