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View Full Version : 500 3's a day for Mc Bob?



90'sNBARocked
07-05-2010, 09:46 AM
http://www.indystar.com/article/20100705/SPORTS04/7050313/1088/SPORTS04/Summer-school-now-in-session


Vogel on McRoberts: "We're looking to grow his space-the-floor game. We're going to look to run a lot of pick-and-pops with him. He's shooting 500 3s a day one-on-zero. One of the primary reasons we're asking him to play is so he can get game 3s. You can't become a great 3-point shooter if you don't do it in games.
"There's not a lot of NBA pick-up ball being played this time of year. Right now, this is the best basketball he can play to improve.
"That's the No. 1 thing he's looking to do, to transform his game the way (Phoenix's) Channing Frye transformed his game, from a non-3-point shooter to a knockdown 3-point shooter"


I really find it incredibly difficult for anyone, I mean anyone to justify McBob working on a 3pt shot! How about you learn to stick the 10' footer first

Chuck Chillout
07-05-2010, 09:51 AM
If it means he gets playing time this season, the end justifies the means.

Doddage
07-05-2010, 10:02 AM
I really find it incredibly difficult for anyone, I mean anyone to justify McBob working on a 3pt shot! How about you learn to stick the 10' footer first
Yeah, I think it's fine for a big man to work on his long-range shooting game. Thing is, though, with McRoberts, I want him to work on his post skills (on both ends) before anything else. It would benefit him given his physical style of play.

31andonly
07-05-2010, 10:02 AM
I'm just shaking my head...the guy's got some talent, he's a PF and there are other parts in his game that can and should be improved first.

Instead, the Jim O'Brien system forces him to spend the offseason shooting 3-pointers in order to get some playing time.

I'm still shaking my head!

Our next head coach (one more year) is probably gonna let him rot on the bench because instead of solid post offense, defense and zone defense he's playing the trailer, waiting for the open three-ball!

Hooray!

:rolleyes:

90'sNBARocked
07-05-2010, 10:10 AM
I know right. I can find a reason to justify it

Justin Tyme
07-05-2010, 10:15 AM
I've said a couple of times that McCarty would be teaching McBob to shoot the 3. Here is your "stretch forward of the future." With McBob being able to shoot the 3, Jimmy can give him minutes.

If Murphy is traded, McBob then becomes Jimmy's "stretch forward." Jimmy wouldn't be w/o someone who can spread the floor. It's his system or nothing for James O'Stubborn. AND Larry "Hire'm Over the Phone" Bird will go along with whatever Jimmy wants. Just one more year for both is as much as I can handle for the duo of Mr. Irrelevance and The Hick.

vnzla81
07-05-2010, 10:24 AM
:wtf:

Doug
07-05-2010, 10:56 AM
It's hard for me to express how much I don't like this.

You can space the floor without having to hit a 3. 12-15 footers, for example.

I could go on, but it would just be :deadhorse

SMosley21
07-05-2010, 11:01 AM
I didn't see anywhere that said Josh was SOLELY working on his 3-point shot.

Rupert Stilinski
07-05-2010, 11:10 AM
I didn't see anywhere that said Josh was SOLELY working on his 3-point shot.

No it doesn't say that, but do you know how much time it takes to get up 500 quality shots of any kind? It takes a long time, and when it's an NBA length three, it's very, very tiring. I'd hope that he would be working on other aspects but when your coaches are focusing so much on one shot, I can't blame McRoberts for mostly focusing on that as well.

SYDNEY MILLER AUSTRALIA31
07-05-2010, 11:25 AM
placing him beyond the 3 point line is a joke and not a good thing, let him develop his inside game and then once he is good at that i dont see no problem with developing his outside shot. by placing him on the 3 point line you are also taking away his offensive rebounding. O'Brien you are a complete idiot and bird your an even bigger idiot because you are letting this happen

bellisimo
07-05-2010, 11:27 AM
I didn't see anywhere that said Josh was SOLELY working on his 3-point shot.

it might not be the only thing...but it is the NUMBER 1 thing he is working on...


"That's the No. 1 thing he's looking to do, to transform his game the way (Phoenix's) Channing Frye transformed his game, from a non-3-point shooter to a knockdown 3-point shooter"

rexnom
07-05-2010, 11:29 AM
Do we really care this much about a tweak to a permanent bench player's game? Besides, the article makes it seem like this McBob's decision, which could be partially financially motivated (i.e. by Frye's progress).

Placebo
07-05-2010, 11:32 AM
McBob is my fantasy bball sleeper now. Ssshh don't tell anyone ;)

Brad8888
07-05-2010, 11:33 AM
I am so happy that I didn't bite on season tickets. That way I can watch out of curiosity at the beginning of the year, and just stop watching when the team implodes, again.

This, for me, is confirmation of three things.

1. O'B meant exactly what he said when he publicly stated that McRoberts must get up a volume of 3's with the mindset of Reggie Miller or Larry Bird to get playing time next year, and Josh will float between the arc and the high post offensively, but only if he can shoot 3's. Otherwise, he won't play.

2. O'B forces players to play out of position to fit his system instead of adjusting his system to maximize the strengths of his players, and always has

3. O'B is who all of his detractors believe him to be

500 3's a day for a player who is at his best offensively when he is within 10 to 15 feet of the basket so he can be a threat to score with his explosiveness, or is a threat to deliver passes to the low post (Roy) or cutters? We literally are trying to re-create Larry Bird, I guess, from a player who really REALLY is not suited for the purpose. Josh should retain legal counsel with an eye toward calculating future earnings loss that he is suffering as a result of the mismanagement of his development by O'B and the Indiana Pacers. At least he would end up with something, where right now he might not survive this as a player. It may even be in his best interest to beg to be traded to San Antonio, where bigs are treated and trained as bigs.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

It also makes sense why McRoberts looks so out of shape on the scrimmage footage. Probably almost all he does for his workouts so far this summer is shoot 3's. If he is taking 500 of them per day, he would have far less time to spend on any conditioning or any basketball skill drills that are appropriate for him as the PF he is. What good will it do to learn to hit 3's without being in condition, assuming he can actually do that? When he gets back into condition, he will be different physically, and his timing probably will be off, not to mention he will have to learn an entirely different position on the floor than he has ever played, swapping back and forth from the high post and trailing at the arc, which will be even MORE challenging than just finally getting the hang of being a serviceable POWER FORWARD, which is his natural position. He may as well have just been drafted, and this will be his rookie season.

So, just as most have believed for a very long time, if you can't hit 3's, unless you are the lone inside player in O'B's idiotic, gimmicky scheme, you will not play unless you are Danny Granger with one foot, at which point you will be instructed to increase the number of 3's you take in an effort to increase your total number of makes despite your percentage decreasing significantly and hurting the overall performance of the team.

Get rid of O'B and the rest of his minions TODAY. All of them, including the new guys. Our previously damaged franchise has been nearly finished off by the O'B Way, and I am sick and tired of watching it happen, but I care too much as a fan to not follow the team regardless.

Ultimately, if Bird supports this guy and his coaching philosophy publicly one more time, Bird has to be held responsible, because it would be completely plain that this is Bird's vision as well, as opposed to just keeping O'B for financial reasons. If so, Bird should head back to the Eagle Ranch and then winter down in Florida and keep his golf clubs shiny by scuffing them around on the sandy soiled couses of southwest Florida. He would have no business being President of Basketball Operations of the professional basketball franchise of the state of Indiana where people actually understand what basketball is, and are passionate about the subject, and know what it takes to maximize the results on the court.

:mad: :box: :mad: :box:

SMosley21
07-05-2010, 11:43 AM
For anyone that has some fantasy about Josh becoming a post-up threat, you are sorely mistaken. He doesn't now, nor will he ever have the strength to be a serious post player. I have no problem with him adding another dimension to his game that ultimately could see him improve upon something that he actually has a chance of succeeding with.

bellisimo
07-05-2010, 11:46 AM
to me this tells me more about the offensive style of the Pacers in the upcoming season than McBob.

Reeder
07-05-2010, 11:47 AM
I'm aghast and filled with dismay at the seemingly inappropriate misuse of McRoberts' talents and abilities. I'm just not getting it, I guess.

Anthem
07-05-2010, 11:49 AM
I feel the hate growing within me, Master.

xBulletproof
07-05-2010, 11:52 AM
Doesn't bother me. If it was Hibbert, I'd be livid.

With McRoberts ability to dribble and pass this fits. If you have to run out on him at the 3 point line, all it would take is a quick fake and he could take it to the rim. His passing ability will allow him to find the open man on the way, or he can use his athleticism to get to the rim. For McRoberts, this is a worthwhile endeavor.

pwee31
07-05-2010, 11:56 AM
The only positive is that we may see him get more time on the floor now, and hoping he can keep the intangibles that we grew to love

Trader Joe
07-05-2010, 12:10 PM
What else could I do when I opened up this thread, but laugh?...It's become comical at this point.

Anthem
07-05-2010, 12:19 PM
With McRoberts ability to dribble and pass this fits. If you have to run out on him at the 3 point line, all it would take is a quick fake and he could take it to the rim. His passing ability will allow him to find the open man on the way, or he can use his athleticism to get to the rim.
Sure, that's great in theory. But there's nothing in the article that suggests Obie's thinking the same thing. We didn't see him dribbling in the scrimmage, we saw him camped at the top of the key. He specifically said "pick and pop" not "pick and roll."

rexnom
07-05-2010, 12:21 PM
Let's all jump to conclusions and reach for our pitchforks before we see anything on the court. That seems like the most reasonable approach here.

Freddie fan
07-05-2010, 12:49 PM
It's not jumping to a conclusion when it's a continuation of what's been happening for several years.

One of the things that's most abhorrent about O'Brien ball is that he coaches our big guys to be softees. The Pacers are disgustingly soft on offense and defense. Bird seemingly has tried to bring in some hard-nosed guys like Hansbrough, Dahntay Jones and Earl Watson, but that's not what O'Brien is looking for. He wants perimeter play and he'll try to convert a player to that if necessary.

I so miss the days of Larry Brown, Dale and Antonio, LaSalle Thompson. In the ESPN special about Reggie vs. the Knicks, it was stunning to compare how physical those Pacers were compared to today's softies. You did not go down the lane against that group without getting knocked on your ***. Today, the Pacers look like they are escorting opponents to the hoop and it is accepted. Larry Brown set that tone with his coaching, his emphasis on defense and rebounding, and his personnel decisions. Coaches and key players define the personality of a team. As O'Brien pushes the Pacers in a direction that has young power forward Josh McRoberts emphasizing 3-point shooting during the offseason, there should be no doubt about this coach's influence on the personality of his team.

Mourning
07-05-2010, 12:52 PM
:thumbdown x1000

Peck
07-05-2010, 12:53 PM
Let's all jump to conclusions and reach for our pitchforks before we see anything on the court. That seems like the most reasonable approach here.

Under normal circumstances this is logical.

However this isn't our first year of seeing Oby Ball (or second or third for that matter).

I have always understood that O'Brien wants the three point shot to open up the driving lanes, however it is getting very hard if not downright impossible to defend his offense to those who claim all he does is shoot a massive amount of three's.

Did you read today's article with Vogel? Did you see how many times he talked about three point shooting from differant players on the floor?

Overall I am never opposed to a player broadening their game. If Josh can take and hit a three, great another weapon in ther arsenal.

However if he is going to become Murphy 2.0 (which really would be McCarty 3.0) then no thank you. Josh needs to be in the lanes and at the elbows.

imawhat
07-05-2010, 12:57 PM
I wouldn't mind as much if Josh had the capability of becoming a good three point shooter.

He doesn't. I don't care if he's putting up 5,000 threes a day. His shot is still as bad as it looked two years ago. It's flat, it comes off of his palm, it's slow, etc.

He's never going to be a good three point shooter. Even worse is the message being sent to Josh by the coaching staff.

BornReady
07-05-2010, 01:00 PM
I don't think this is a bad thing. I think we are frustrated by this because JOB LOVES the 3 ball and might force players to take bad 3s, but I don't feel like this will happen with McRoberts. To me, McRoberts never had a particularly effective post game, but made his way through passing and hustle/energy around the hoop. I don't think adding a 3 pt game will alter or cramp his playing style to much, rather, it just adds more versatility to it. I doubt we see McRoberts camping the 3 pt line like Vujacic does. If we do, shame on JOB and I will personally ensure that my pitchfork pokes JOB in a no so nice way :)

Brad8888
07-05-2010, 01:02 PM
I wouldn't mind as much if Josh had the capability of becoming a good three point shooter.

He doesn't. I don't care if he's putting up 5,000 threes a day. His shot is still as bad as it looked two years ago. It's flat, it comes off of his palm, it's slow, etc.

He's never going to be a good three point shooter. Even worse is the message being sent to Josh by the coaching staff.

Practice makes permanent, not necessarily perfect, especially when you don't have the experience, physique, and overall ability to shoot threes.

Brad8888
07-05-2010, 01:06 PM
I don't think this is a bad thing. I think we are frustrated by this because JOB LOVES the 3 ball and might force players to take bad 3s, but I don't feel like this will happen with McRoberts. To me, McRoberts never had a particularly effective post game, but made his way through passing and hustle/energy around the hoop. I don't think adding a 3 pt game will alter or cramp his playing style to much, rather, it just adds more versatility to it. I doubt we see McRoberts camping the 3 pt line like Vujacic does. If we do, shame on JOB and I will personally ensure that my pitchfork pokes JOB in a no so nice way :)

It is no accident that Murphy, our best rebounder :laugh: pretty much only gets defensive rebounds. He cannot get many boards when he is at the arc as a primary component of his offense. Vogel speaking about a "pick and pop" game with McRoberts seems to indicate that McRoberts is going to be out there as well, but just may not be a candidate for trailing 3's.

imawhat
07-05-2010, 01:08 PM
With McRoberts ability to dribble and pass this fits. If you have to run out on him at the 3 point line, all it would take is a quick fake and he could take it to the rim. His passing ability will allow him to find the open man on the way, or he can use his athleticism to get to the rim. For McRoberts, this is a worthwhile endeavor.

But it isn't. He doesn't have the ability to consistently make a three pointer. His shot is fundamentally flawed in the same way as Shaq and his free throws.

We want him to penetrate? Start him closer to the basket. Give the defense less time to react after he beats his man. Then he'll punish teams with passing.

BornReady
07-05-2010, 01:09 PM
mmm do you guys really think he'd start camping the 3 pt line? I feel like he KNOWS he's too versatile to limit his game to that...and I doubt the 3 game becomes the primary focus when he plays. I kinda see it as another weapon in the arsenal.

dohman
07-05-2010, 01:09 PM
Josh is doing the smart thing for his career.

Teams love the big tough man that shoot threes. If he can improve his stroke he will be in the league three times as long. Right now he is a twelfth man on most teams. But if he gets a three point shot teams like sa would be drooling over him and ready to sign him to a long deal.

Props to Josh on knowing what it takes for him to stay in the league

xBulletproof
07-05-2010, 01:17 PM
Sure, that's great in theory. But there's nothing in the article that suggests Obie's thinking the same thing. We didn't see him dribbling in the scrimmage, we saw him camped at the top of the key. He specifically said "pick and pop" not "pick and roll."

So in this thread, you choose to take words at face value without any variations being possible, but in your other thread (http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=54799), that's an unreasonable stance to take. Talk about picking and choosing what you WANT to believe.

Either way, if you think the only time McRoberts will ever have the ball is when it's a "pick and pop" then your logic is sound, I suppose. That's also assuming that on any given "pick and pop" play an up fake is absolutely forbidden and punishable by death. I don't believe that's the case.

KennerLeaguer
07-05-2010, 01:35 PM
Let's all jump to conclusions and reach for our pitchforks before we see anything on the court. That seems like the most reasonable approach here.

Why is this defense used every time one of JOB's schemes is questioned? Haven't Pacers fans seen more than enough by now to make a judgment or at the very least to feel pessimistic?

KennerLeaguer
07-05-2010, 01:39 PM
Josh is doing the smart thing for his career.

Teams love the big tough man that shoot threes.

Teams love bigs who can be reliable to score inside, rebound and block shots even more.



Props to Josh on knowing what it takes for him to stay in the league

Score inside, rebound and block shots and he'll have a job in this league for ten more years.

Anthem
07-05-2010, 01:52 PM
mmm do you guys really think he'd start camping the 3 pt line? I feel like he KNOWS he's too versatile to limit his game to that...and I doubt the 3 game becomes the primary focus when he plays.
You see the rookie scrimmage? Mostly he just stood at the 3pt line and chucked. It was ugly.

Hicks
07-05-2010, 01:55 PM
Let's keep in mind those videos of the rookie/FA camp are (probably highly) edited. You're only seeing a slice of that pie.

Anthem
07-05-2010, 01:56 PM
So in this thread, you choose to take words at face value without any variations being possible, but in your other thread (http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=54799), that's an unreasonable stance to take. Talk about picking and choosing what you WANT to believe.
Man, did I p*ss in your wheaties or what? You're just looking for ways to disagree with me. You drastically misunderstood me in the other thread, and you're refusing to acknowledge the plain meaning of JOB's words about McRoberts over the past four months in this one.

There's no hermeneutical discrepancy between these two threads.

pacers74
07-05-2010, 01:57 PM
Josh better not camp out at the 3 point line at all. Not even this week.

Anthem
07-05-2010, 01:57 PM
Let's keep in mind those videos of the rookie/FA camp are (probably highly) edited. You're only seeing a slice of that pie.
They showed 8 minutes out of 12, right?

xBulletproof
07-05-2010, 02:10 PM
Man, did I p*ss in your wheaties or what? You're just looking for ways to disagree with me. You drastically misunderstood me in the other thread, and you're refusing to acknowledge the plain meaning of JOB's words about McRoberts over the past four months in this one.

There's no hermeneutical discrepancy between these two threads.

I don't even eat Wheaties.

BornReady
07-05-2010, 02:14 PM
You see the rookie scrimmage? Mostly he just stood at the 3pt line and chucked. It was ugly.

He didn't exactly camp the 3 pt line, per se, but he did seem to be less active on offense (I guess that's him trying to be an offensive facilitator?) I certainly liked him on defense though, diving for loose balls and all.

Hicks
07-05-2010, 02:14 PM
They showed 8 minutes out of 12, right?

Where are you getting those numbers from? And I thought they played a 24 or 48 minute game?

BornReady
07-05-2010, 02:15 PM
Where are you getting those numbers from? And I thought they played a 24 or 48 minute game?

it said under the description that the scrimmage was 12 mins. the video was 8 mins long :)

xBulletproof
07-05-2010, 02:19 PM
But it isn't. He doesn't have the ability to consistently make a three pointer. His shot is fundamentally flawed in the same way as Shaq and his free throws.

How exactly do you know this already? The guy hasn't been working on it for very long, and you've already determined that he can't possibly ever be good at it? Damn, this struggling the last few years has people hating on anything, and everything before it's even been proven.

I have a hard time believing our coaches, front office, and Josh himself would waste time working on it if they all believed he couldn't shoot it from distance after some practice.

Pacers2012
07-05-2010, 02:25 PM
But it isn't. He doesn't have the ability to consistently make a three pointer. His shot is fundamentally flawed in the same way as Shaq and his free throws.

We want him to penetrate? Start him closer to the basket. Give the defense less time to react after he beats his man. Then he'll punish teams with passing.

Mcbob was actually a really good 3point shooter in high school and can shoot the 3. When he went to duke though they didn't need him to shoot 3s and instead made him work on playing in the post. Same thing happened when he came to the nba. Trust me though once u dont shoot 3s as much as you use to then your shot becomes wack. If they are gonna let him shoot 3s then he will improve his 3point shooting before the season starts.

BlueNGold
07-05-2010, 02:28 PM
McBob should be modeling his game after Birdman...not Larry Bird. It's important for a player to try to develop more skills and work on weaknesses, but that should not be the focus. Skills have to be highly specialized and developed to play at a high level in the playoffs...the only time it really counts. That usually requires that players focus on their God given talents, not what a poor, rigid, unsuccessful stategy requires.

The problem with JOb is that he doesn't seem to recognize all of the benefits that exist to having an athletic big in the paint fighting for offensive rebounds, kicking the ball out to a real 3 point shooter, going to the rim for a jam and getting the other team's bigs in foul trouble (and tired so they miss their shots at the other end). He'd rather have the other team rest physically and easily sweep the boards and jam at the other end.

BTW, this is kind of OT...but have you ever looked at Murphy's percentage of offensive boards to total rebounds. Well, the reason it's low is because he expends all of his energy on offense shooting 3's while standing 30 feet from the rim. Of course, that doesn't take much energy comparatively, so he is basically allowed to rest compared to other players who hit the glass. There is an ENORMOUS cost to that as a game progresses. That's probably the biggest issue I have with Troy. You see some offensive effectiveness from him and some people are fooled. Others intuitively know that a player like Foster or Tyler Hansbrough are more likely to help you get wins. Maybe people cannot articulate why those players help you win...but I can. There is so much more to the game of basketball than the three point shot. When Troy is not in there fighting for rebounds, he's not able to kick the ball out...grab offensive boards...get the other team in foul trouble...get the other players tired like they usually are against other teams. This costs you BIG TIME in the latter stages of games as their bigs don't have many fouls, are relatively well rested, still have their wind and legs and are able to knock down key baskets and grab critical boards.

Sookie
07-05-2010, 02:50 PM
mmm do you guys really think he'd start camping the 3 pt line? I feel like he KNOWS he's too versatile to limit his game to that...and I doubt the 3 game becomes the primary focus when he plays. I kinda see it as another weapon in the arsenal.

He did last year..at the end, he'd shoot far too many threes. Funny thing is that's pretty much all that Price and Rush did at the end of the year too..and Hibbert's starting to shoot threes...seriously, if Tyler recovers, not having two years of Oby may actually have been a blessing in disguise..cuz if I hear about HIM shooting 1000 threes a day..

Bball
07-05-2010, 03:15 PM
EVERY player on this team just needs to launch quick 3's as a form of mutiny. Enough is enough of O'Brien ball.

Unfortunately, he'd probably love it if players at every position aggressively took quick 3's....

Normally I despise player mutinies but in this case I'd applaud them for it.

speakout4
07-05-2010, 03:28 PM
I ran into Billy Keller at the post office last summer and he said that he was working with Josh every day. i assume that a 5'8'' keller was not teaching Josh had to guard people in the backcourt.

It appears that Josh's shooting tutorials did not start this summer but have been ongoing under OB. I agree with posters that think Josh needs to concentrate his time and effort in the post or at the least learn to shoot from somewhere in proximity to the post.

Is Magnum making a good impression in the first few minutes of summer league? Nice to see.

Lord Helmet
07-05-2010, 07:06 PM
Please fire O'Brien.

cordobes
07-05-2010, 07:06 PM
I side with those who see McRoberts as a face-up 4 who needs a jump-shot badly to open his game. I think it's essential for him to be more than an end of the bench player. And the more range the better, if there's a chance he can become a reliable 3pt shooter I'd go for it with no hesitation.

Lord Helmet
07-05-2010, 07:07 PM
Hibbert needs to start shooting three's, with his size he would be unstoppable!

ksuttonjr76
07-05-2010, 11:33 PM
Everytime JOB talks, he mentions the 3....sigh. One more year, and the nightmare will be over.

Hoop
07-05-2010, 11:45 PM
Everytime JOB talks, he mentions the 3....sigh. One more year, and the nightmare will be over.
We hope and pray. :pray:

indyaway
07-06-2010, 12:42 AM
Mcbob was actually a really good 3point shooter in high school and can shoot the 3. When he went to duke though they didn't need him to shoot 3s and instead made him work on playing in the post.

Wait, what? A legendary, hall of fame coach wanted McBob to play inside and not shoot 3's? You don't say...

Sorry, Obie doesn't get any more benefit of the doubt. The guy is a trainwreck of a coach that is supposed to hold onto the wheel and steer straight until the team gets out of cap space hell. Unfortunately, he hasn't got the message and instead he's running the team into a ditch by corrupting the games of the players to suit his 'style'.

Foul on Smits
07-06-2010, 01:55 AM
Magnum Rolle was obviously drafted so that JOB could develope him into a half court shot, threat.

Gotta spread the floor and open those lanes you know.

thewholefnshow31
07-06-2010, 08:21 AM
I do not even know what to say with them pushing McBob to shoot more three pointers. Reading MGs tweets during the game just made me shake my head. McRoberts is better suited to play in the low post and having an effective mid range jump shot. JOB just wants McRoberts to morph into a Murphy clone. I wonder how long it will take before we see Magnum shooting threes.

Unclebuck
07-06-2010, 08:52 AM
I doubt Josh can ever be a decent post up back to the basket player - he just doesn't have the body for it. So I think getting him to be a good face up shooter is a smart move.

I think for Josh to be most effective being able to shoot a three point shot will give him thwe ability to get more minutes, not just as a Pacers player but where ever he goes. If i were Josh's agent or close friend who cared about him as a player, yes if you have the ability to become a good three point shooter, by all means become one.

The key is does he have the ability to do so. Some players do some don't. The coaches must think Josh does

OK, you all can go back to JOB bashing

Hawkman
07-06-2010, 09:18 AM
I doubt Josh can ever be a decent post up back to the basket player - he just doesn't have the body for it. So I think getting him to be a good face up shooter is a smart move.

I think for Josh to be most effective being able to shoot a three point shot will give him thwe ability to get more minutes, not just as a Pacers player but where ever he goes. If i were Josh's agent or close friend who cared about him as a player, yes if you have the ability to become a good three point shooter, by all means become one.

The key is does he have the ability to do so. Some players do some don't. The coaches must think Josh does

OK, you all can go back to JOB bashing

And out of the dark I hear a voice of reason and knowledge.

31andonly
07-06-2010, 09:21 AM
OK, you all can go back to JOB bashing

Thank you ;)

indyaway
07-06-2010, 11:13 AM
I doubt Josh can ever be a decent post up back to the basket player - he just doesn't have the body for it. So I think getting him to be a good face up shooter is a smart move.

There are other distances where he can be effective as a face up shooter. 15-17ft in still lets him face up and pump-fake/dribble-drive. He doesn't have to step back beyond the arc to add this dimension to his game.



The key is does he have the ability to do so. Some players do some don't. The coaches must think Josh does


Which coaches? The two that left in the off-season or the new hires that barely know him? Neither group is exactly a a sound argument for professional eyes seeing this hidden talent in Josh.

pacergod2
07-06-2010, 11:28 AM
I would much much much rather see him run 500 pick and rolls per day.

I would much rather see him work on his jumper from the elbow to the top of the key. I would also like to see him box out 500 times a day. I would also rather see him take 500 free throws a day.

There are so many other things I would want him to utilize his efforts this summer toward. He needs to improve. That is a fact. But the desire to have him shooting three pointers is ridiculous. We lack a weak side presence on the offensive glass and it puts a strain on Hibbert. Why doesn't our coach realize this? Seriously. We can't put more people on the perimeter, Don Nelson... errr... uh.... Jim O'Brien. This is ignorant unless he ends his day shooting 500 threes after doing all the things I mentioned earlier. And even then I would prefer he get 1000 pick and rolls in and forget the three point shot. He can take a bunch of threes when he needs to "pop" on the pick and roll.

Unclebuck
07-06-2010, 11:32 AM
Which coaches? The two that left in the off-season or the new hires that barely know him? Neither group is exactly a a sound argument for professional eyes seeing this hidden talent in Josh.

I would think any halfway decent high school level coach can see a guy shoot and see potential. If you watch Shaq shoot one shot and Josh shoot one shot I would hope it is rather obvious. OK Shaq isn't going to become a decent outside no matter if he shoots 20,000 threes a day or not. Josh can.

Shooting isn't a hidden talent.

Brad8888
07-06-2010, 11:42 AM
I would think any halfway decent high school level coach can see a guy whoot and see potential. If you watch Shaq shoot one shot and Josh shoot one shot I would hope it is rather obvious. OK Shaq isn't going to become a decent outside no matter if he shoots 20,000 threes a day or not. Josh can.

Shooting isn't a hidden talent.

Which is exactly why so many of us here, including our resident analyst imawhat who has pointed out several of his flaws, are so livid about trying to turn Josh into a 3 (!) point shooter when he simply hasn't shown any shooting form that indicates any hope of being able to master shooting the most difficult shot on the court, which is why it is worth the most points, 3 (!).

Rupert Stilinski
07-06-2010, 11:48 AM
I would much much much rather see him run 500 pick and rolls per day.

I would much rather see him work on his jumper from the elbow to the top of the key. I would also like to see him box out 500 times a day. I would also rather see him take 500 free throws a day.

There are so many other things I would want him to utilize his efforts this summer toward. He needs to improve. That is a fact. But the desire to have him shooting three pointers is ridiculous. We lack a weak side presence on the offensive glass and it puts a strain on Hibbert. Why doesn't our coach realize this? Seriously. We can't put more people on the perimeter, Don Nelson... errr... uh.... Jim O'Brien. This is ignorant unless he ends his day shooting 500 threes after doing all the things I mentioned earlier. And even then I would prefer he get 1000 pick and rolls in and forget the three point shot. He can take a bunch of threes when he needs to "pop" on the pick and roll.

They don't want him rolling. Ever. It's always a pick and pop. You can't roll for a three.

imawhat
07-06-2010, 11:53 AM
I saw this and saw potential for a top 10 hit, until Tag Team came along and lifted the idea.

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indyaway
07-06-2010, 12:27 PM
Shooting isn't a hidden talent.

If he's still chucking up flat footed bricks as witnessed in the most recent practice video, I think it's safe to say he does not have the talent to shoot behind the arc.

Coach K put him in the paint. Coach K's coaching ability >>>> anyone on the Pacer's staff.

flox
07-06-2010, 12:34 PM
If he's still chucking up flat footed bricks as witnessed in the most recent practice video, I think it's safe to say he does not have the talent to shoot behind the arc.

Coach K put him in the paint. Coach K's coaching ability >>>> anyone on the Pacer's staff.

College ball is not NBA ball.

And look what happened to McBob's draft stock when he went to Duke. Coach K hardly helped him- he was just using McBob for the team, not for McBob the player.

McBob the player needs the three point shot. Stretch fours have lead teams deep into the playoffs this year.

McBob being Birdman is highly ridiculous. He has nowhere need the ability needed to be Birdman.

But he can be a poor man's Horry- and if he be that it is better for the team, his career, and future teams he plays on.

indyaway
07-06-2010, 12:38 PM
College ball is not NBA ball.

And look what happened to McBob's draft stock when he went to Duke. Coach K hardly helped him- he was just using McBob for the team, not for McBob the player.

McBob the player needs the three point shot. Stretch fours have lead teams deep into the playoffs this year.

McBob being Birdman is highly ridiculous. He has nowhere need the ability needed to be Birdman.

But he can be a poor man's Horry- and if he be that it is better for the team, his career, and future teams he plays on.

Two words for you: Troy Murphy

How's that stretch 4 working out so far for the Pacers? And Obie wants TWO of them?

Also, I don't care what McBob the player needs. Like Coach K, I care about what the Pacer TEAM needs, and it's not a stretch 4, it's a body inside to pair with Hibbert on D who can also open up a little room in the paint with a 15-17ft jump shot.

Really?
07-06-2010, 01:26 PM
http://www.indystar.com/article/20100705/SPORTS04/7050313/1088/SPORTS04/Summer-school-now-in-session




I really find it incredibly difficult for anyone, I mean anyone to justify McBob working on a 3pt shot! How about you learn to stick the 10' footer first

So basically this is the Pacers saying that when we trade Murphy we want you to jump right in at PF. They like how Murphy can spread the floor with his 3's at times and they don't want to give that up completely, lol

I'm pretty sure if Tyler's ear wasn't hurting they would have him out there doing that too...

31andonly
07-06-2010, 01:42 PM
...quietly and unnoticed, somewhere in the dark corners of the Fieldhouse even Jeff Foster is racking up thousands of three-pointers per day!

Roaming Gnome
07-06-2010, 01:44 PM
I saw this and saw potential for a top 10 hit, until Tag Team came along and lifted the idea.

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Thanks for the call back to the early 90's and that "Miami Bass" sound!

To be fair.... Both Tag Team and 95 South were on the Billboard charts at the same time with practically the same song eventhough Tag Team's "Whoomp" had the most notoriety.

Unclebuck
07-06-2010, 01:45 PM
So wait, now we are saying Josh isn't a good shooter

indyaway
07-06-2010, 01:54 PM
So wait, now we are saying Josh isn't a good shooter

Definitely not from beyond the arc. Offensively, his game should be 19ft and in: Working in that space to set picks, attacking the basket for offensive rebounds/putbacks/garbage points, and taking a mid-range jumper or making the extra pass inside.

See some of the Stevenson videos (101) for more flat footed, no arc bricklaying from McBob (assuming that's him, hard to tell from the video).

Chuck Chillout
07-06-2010, 02:10 PM
Definitely not from beyond the arc. Offensively, his game should be 19ft and in: Working in that space to set picks, attacking the basket for offensive rebounds/putbacks/garbage points, and taking a mid-range jumper or making the extra pass inside.

See some of the Stevenson videos (101) for more flat footed, no arc bricklaying from McBob (assuming that's him, hard to tell from the video).
Murphy started his career as a high 20's 3PT shooter, now he's hovering around 40 consistently. I can only guess he put some shots up in the offseasons to improve his long-range jumper?

I don't get where a skilled player like McRoberts categorically cannot become a solid 3 PT shooter. He's a professional basketball player who can put the time in.

Since86
07-06-2010, 02:13 PM
I doubt Josh can ever be a decent post up back to the basket player - he just doesn't have the body for it. So I think getting him to be a good face up shooter is a smart move.

And what kind of body is that? Does he need to have a body more like Shawn Bradley, and just tower over people? I mean, he was one hell of an offensive threat.

Or does he need to lose some height, and gain some muscle, and look more like Boozer? Or how about more like Elton Brand.

My point is that post players come in all different shapes and sizes. It's not the size of your body, it's how effectively you use it.

So just to make sure we're all on the same page. You're trying to say he doesn't have the right body type to be a post player, but he does have the body type to hang out on the perimeter like guards? Got it.

Naptown_Seth
07-06-2010, 02:25 PM
So wait, now we are saying Josh isn't a good shooter
I'm not. I think he's a pretty solid shooter and his work is paying off.

I just think that you could have him work on other things that would help more in the overall scheme. The 3 ball helps Josh get PT in JOB's scheme, but ultimately I'd rather have him putting those hours into defending the post or cranking up his already solid passing.


I hate that it seems like JOB's solution to everything is "have you learned to shoot the 3 yet?"



Stretch fours have lead teams deep into the playoffs this year.

McBob being Birdman is highly ridiculous. He has nowhere need the ability needed to be Birdman.
Led? Led? No, not led. "Been on teams that went deep", sure. Sheed, Smooth, Horry all come to mind. Led those teams? No. Dirk isn't even a stretch PF in the 3pt sense. He shoots it, but not nearly as much as you'd think. His thing is mid-range and drawing fouls.


In what way is Josh less than Birdman? He's got the same hops, better handles, similar strength, better overall offense. Birdman is a better rebounder. I think it's very close on defense.

Birdman does NOT cover SFs better than Josh. He probably does defend the post better.

Josh throws out as many highlight dunks per minute of play as Birdman. Does Birdman come close to Josh with passing?


This stuff frustrates me so much because he makes those plays and still you have a few people with the JOB view of "irrelevant". Josh does what he does, the passes, dribble, dunks are all there. He's not an all-star, but you might work him to starter level. He's not that far off if he could prove out his stamina and foul control.





I do agree with the theory that you make Josh shoot the 3 because you are trading Troy at some point. I'd bet this is their safety valve.

I also agree they'd be doing the same thing to Tyler which to me is even more of a bad idea. I'm no Tyler fan, but I can see where his strengths are and how he could make it in the NBA. Shooting the 3 is not the way. His game on offense is about inside contact and getting to the FT line.

If anything I'd like Josh to develop that part of Tyler's game (drawing fouls) than the 3 ball of Troy's game.

indyaway
07-06-2010, 02:45 PM
Murphy started his career as a high 20's 3PT shooter, now he's hovering around 40 consistently. I can only guess he put some shots up in the offseasons to improve his long-range jumper?

I don't get where a skilled player like McRoberts categorically cannot become a solid 3 PT shooter. He's a professional basketball player who can put the time in.

I'm sure he can, but it's not the best use of a player with his physical size and skillset. Again, how much playoff success has Murphy had in his entire career? I don't exactly see his game and the offensive systems that emphasize it as terribly successful.

We're well into Obie's tenure as coach; gone are the "benefit of the doubt / trust the coach / he's a pro so he knows more" days. His job now is to shepard this team to another losing season, develop the few assets we'll likely retain long term, and hand the keys to the next coach. That he's actively screwing up one of those minor assets means JOB can't even do his menial job correctly.

Unclebuck
07-06-2010, 02:47 PM
I hate that it seems like JOB's solution to everything is "have you learned to shoot the 3 yet?"



Not really. He never asked Jeff Foster to learn to shoot the three. I bet he has never nor will he ever ask Roy Hibbert to learn to shoot the three. I'm sure if he coached Dwight Howard, he would never suggest Dwight ever learn to shoot the three.

I think in Josh's case it would be a very valuable skill for him to have in his back pocket as he moves through his career, and since he'll never be much of a post up player because he is thin (most of the best post-up players have a big butt, broad shoulders....as that helps him get position to receive the ball and to then score over defenders.) it is no accident that players like Barkley, Larry Johnson, Mark Aquire, Adrien Dantley became excellent post up players and were able to score against much taller players.

I think Josh has a much better chance of becoming an adequate three point shooter than he does of ever becoming an adequate post-up player.

If you want to say well why not just shoot out to 20 feet, and not worry about the three. OK, I have no problem with that, but if he can shoot the 18-20 footer, why not see if he can learn to shoot the three. What is the harm.

indyaway
07-06-2010, 02:54 PM
OK, I have no problem with that, but if he can shoot the 18-20 footer, why not see if he can learn to shoot the three. What is the harm.

Two reasons. One, that's an entirely different shot, and his % behind the arc will be drastically less than from 18'. Second, behind the arc puts him out of position to do all the other things he needs to do for the team to be effective offensively (picks, rebound, pass inside).

As far as physically being able to play inside, he's listed as 6'10 240. That's the same height and 15lbs heavier than Kevin McHale (no broad shoulders, no big back end). To dismiss his ability to play inside based on his dimensions but think he can realistically develop into a credible, game time, 3pt shooter when he's never displayed that ability is ludicrous.

Seriously, why does anyone care if Josh develops a game that will be personally valuable. It's about the TEAM and what's best for them to be successful in the NBA. Furthermore, as Josh will likely never amount to anything more than average at best, I'd counter-argue that being a valuable component in a team system is more important to his long term viability than a mediocre at best 3pt shot.

Justin Tyme
07-06-2010, 03:03 PM
...quietly and unnoticed, somewhere in the dark corners of the Fieldhouse even Jeff Foster is racking up thousands of three-pointers per day!


I believe I saw him hit about 3 in the last year or so, but I'd much rather he be practicing hitting put backs. He misses more bunnies in a year than Elmer Fudd does.

flox
07-06-2010, 03:06 PM
Two words for you: Troy Murphy

How's that stretch 4 working out so far for the Pacers? And Obie wants TWO of them?

Also, I don't care what McBob the player needs. Like Coach K, I care about what the Pacer TEAM needs, and it's not a stretch 4, it's a body inside to pair with Hibbert on D who can also open up a little room in the paint with a 15-17ft jump shot.

lol, if our team was any better Troy Murphy would be met with praise, not scorn, for the things he could do on this team. But on our current team with only 2 clear NBA calibur starters in Murphy and Granger, well, one could feasibly ignore Murphy's inability to bring the team any success given the supporting cast.

and if you don't care what the players need, well then, I don't see how our team can ever be successful. And if Coach K coached the same way, I doubt duke would be successful. And even more, I doubt McBob is the right answer as the body to pair with Hibbert with d and shoot an elbow jumper.





Led? Led? No, not led. "Been on teams that went deep", sure. Sheed, Smooth, Horry all come to mind. Led those teams? No. Dirk isn't even a stretch PF in the 3pt sense. He shoots it, but not nearly as much as you'd think. His thing is mid-range and drawing fouls.


In what way is Josh less than Birdman? He's got the same hops, better handles, similar strength, better overall offense. Birdman is a better rebounder. I think it's very close on defense.


Led does not mean focal point, lead means leadership and other leading qualities, Horry and Sheed have those qualities for sure. While sheed was terrible in the regular season one cannot doubt how much he brought to the Celtics in the final two series.

When I look at Josh play, I just can't ever imagine him being the type of player the Birdman is. He's good good hops and better handles, but I don't think his body and his skills lend him to that style of player.

BillS
07-06-2010, 03:23 PM
So I thought the disdain for Troy wasn't on the offensive end it was on the defensive end.

If you can successfully use a long-range shooter on offense who can actually defend near the paint, why isn't this a valid piece of a good to very good team?

I'm not necessarily saying that this is appropriate given our makeup, nor am I absolving anyone from overusing such a situation. However, picture in your mind Troy Murphy actually effectively playing defense and can you honestly tell me you'd have that much to complain about his playing? Now, imagine Josh being able to do the same. Why does this make him a bad player, or "ruin" him?

Chuck Chillout
07-06-2010, 03:30 PM
I'm sure he can, but it's not the best use of a player with his physical size and skillset. Again, how much playoff success has Murphy had in his entire career? I don't exactly see his game and the offensive systems that emphasize it as terribly successful.

We're well into Obie's tenure as coach; gone are the "benefit of the doubt / trust the coach / he's a pro so he knows more" days. His job now is to shepard this team to another losing season, develop the few assets we'll likely retain long term, and hand the keys to the next coach. That he's actively screwing up one of those minor assets means JOB can't even do his menial job correctly.
As I mentioned in another thread, I think it's a very good use of his skillset, as a consistent 3 pt. shot opens up the floor for his handle, passing, and finishing.

On the whole, I think Josh and Troy are very different players. Josh is what, 2, 3, 10 times more athletic? He plays with an emotion Troy almost never shows. He seems to enjoy playing whereas Troy seems aloof to me.

But if Josh could emulate one skill of Troy's, wouldn't it be his ability to shoot from range? I mean, Troy is a VERY GOOD outside shooter for his size, and deadly as a trailer. I just think Josh adding this to his game is an asset, not a waste of time.

pacergod2
07-06-2010, 03:37 PM
I love players that attempt to be great all around players. If that means adding a three point shot then great, but McRoberts has so much more pressing needs to work on that I just don't want an emphasis put on the 3pt shot.

One other thing that I have noticed about him, is that he struggles driving and getting to the rim from the three point line. When he starts from closer to the elbow, he is much more fluid getting to the rim. He tends to lose the ball and find too much traffic as it collapses with his dribble when he starts from further out. Troy is a better driver to the hoop than McRoberts is, and a lot of that comes from being guarded so heavily on the perimeter. Troy plays small against a bigger opponent. I think Josh's attributes as a player are suited much more to playing the high post and in pick and roll situations than camping at the three point line.

Unclebuck
07-06-2010, 03:44 PM
As far as physically being able to play inside, he's listed as 6'10 240. That's the same height and 15lbs heavier than Kevin McHale (no broad shoulders, no big back end). To dismiss his ability to play inside based on his dimensions but think he can realistically develop into a credible, game time, 3pt shooter when he's never displayed that ability is ludicrous.



Kevin McHale had the longest arms ever measured in human history (well not really, but his arms were long) he also was highly, highly skilled, had great hands, an angular body that made him very difficult to defend.

Also who is saying that he will never play inside. Why not use the summer to see how he does on the outside. It isn't like we are taking Dwight Howard and putting him outside the arc. We are taking IMO a borderline NBA player and seeing if he can become an adequate three point shooter - if he can his value increases a great deal.

Some of you are acting like he suits up shoots 500 threes and then goes and showers, and does nothing else. I mean he can shoot 3's and still have time to work on other parts of his game.

And I don't understand what you mean when you say that a three point shot is an entirely different shot. Isn't it still shooting. Maybe i could see a halfcourt shot being a different shot, but a three point shot should be the exact same motion as a 15 ft shot

TooBigNdaPaint
07-06-2010, 03:45 PM
I would much much much rather see him run 500 pick and rolls per day.

I would much rather see him work on his jumper from the elbow to the top of the key. I would also like to see him box out 500 times a day. I would also rather see him take 500 free throws a day.

I would prefer he get 1000 pick and rolls in and forget the three point shot. He can take a bunch of threes when he needs to "pop" on the pick and roll.

Although I totally agree with you, he has shown a better shot (from shooting 500 3's in practice) during Summer League play and he IS finally playing tougher defense. He definitely needs to continue working via weight training on his upper BODY because he will always be 'blessed' with foot-speed and athleticism. I'd rather see him work on his 'foot-work' (a la Josh Smith and Amare Stoudemire) when close to the basket. With his quickness, he could develop a devastating 'inside' game to go with his athletic transition game of dunks and layups (and 3pt shooting as a stretch 4).

Unclebuck
07-06-2010, 03:46 PM
So I thought the disdain for Troy wasn't on the offensive end it was on the defensive end.

If you can successfully use a long-range shooter on offense who can actually defend near the paint, why isn't this a valid piece of a good to very good team?

I'm not necessarily saying that this is appropriate given our makeup, nor am I absolving anyone from overusing such a situation. However, picture in your mind Troy Murphy actually effectively playing defense and can you honestly tell me you'd have that much to complain about his playing? Now, imagine Josh being able to do the same. Why does this make him a bad player, or "ruin" him?

If Troy could defend like Jeff Foster (an excellent defender, but certainly not KG in his prime) Troy would be invaluable

BRushWithDeath
07-06-2010, 03:54 PM
If Troy could defend like Jeff Foster (an excellent defender, but certainly not KG in his prime) Troy would be an invaluable

He'd easily be the best player on the team if that were the case.

Just as McRoberts would be if he could shoot threes like Troy Murphy as I mentioned in another thread.

I don't think either will ever happen but McRoberts vastly improving his deep jumper is far more likely.

Peck
07-06-2010, 04:01 PM
So I thought the disdain for Troy wasn't on the offensive end it was on the defensive end.

If you can successfully use a long-range shooter on offense who can actually defend near the paint, why isn't this a valid piece of a good to very good team?

I'm not necessarily saying that this is appropriate given our makeup, nor am I absolving anyone from overusing such a situation. However, picture in your mind Troy Murphy actually effectively playing defense and can you honestly tell me you'd have that much to complain about his playing? Now, imagine Josh being able to do the same. Why does this make him a bad player, or "ruin" him?

Sorry I can't picture this in my mind.

indyaway
07-06-2010, 07:53 PM
Oh lord, McBob is bricking 3's AGAIN in this summer league game vs. NJ. Not only that, he's barely moving up and down the court, Please, Obie, just stop ruining what little potential this guy had.

pacers74
07-06-2010, 08:10 PM
So wait, now we are saying Josh isn't a good shooter


Not in the first half tonight!!!:rolleyes:

Freddie fan
07-06-2010, 08:26 PM
Sorry I can't picture this in my mind.


Oh lord, McBob is bricking 3's AGAIN in this summer league game vs. NJ. Not only that, he's barely moving up and down the court, Please, Obie, just stop ruining what little potential this guy had.

This is the problem. Not just that McRoberts isn't likely to become a proficient 3-point shooter, but that his style of play will change as he hovers near the 3-point line, negating his athleticism and transforming him into another of O'Brien's passive Pacers who too often make the night comfortable and productive for opponents.

Freddie fan
07-06-2010, 08:50 PM
Not really. He never asked Jeff Foster to learn to shoot the three. I bet he has never nor will he ever ask Roy Hibbert to learn to shoot the three. I'm sure if he coached Dwight Howard, he would never suggest Dwight ever learn to shoot the three.

.

What remarkable restraint. O'Brien hasn't converted Foster, a career 61.6 percent shooter from the line and 12.0 percent shooter on 3-pointers (6-of-50 over 11 seasons), into a stretch forward who bombs away from outside the arc. Kudos!

Naming a handful of people who O'Brien would not push to become rabid 3-point shooters if he was their coach hardly negates the overall point, but it is kind of fun. Wilt Chamberlain? Nope, Obie would never turn him into a 3-point specialist. Shaquille O'Neal? Nope. Mark Eaton? Nope. Air Bud? Nope. Nancy Kerrigan? Nope.

LoneGranger33
07-06-2010, 09:14 PM
500 is not enough!

bphil
07-06-2010, 09:23 PM
I think he got his 500 3s in for today just during the first half.

Anthem
07-06-2010, 09:27 PM
Anybody catch the announcers' ongoing discussion of Josh's threes? They were pretty disgusted that an athletic big man had attempted ten threes instead of ruling the paint, but Obie came over and said "don't blame him, he's just doing what I told him to do."

Anybody else hear that?

PaceBalls
07-06-2010, 09:29 PM
500 is not enough!

Hah, about to post the same thing...

I have no problem with Josh BrickRoberts (thanks LoneGranger33) working on 3pt shots. The best players try to add another dimension to their game every year.

I just hope Jim doesn't exclusively use him as a stretch forward.

Anthem
07-06-2010, 09:42 PM
I just hope Jim doesn't exclusively use him as a stretch forward.
I think it's pretty apparent that he will.

Speed
07-06-2010, 09:43 PM
If you're scoring at home, he only has 488 left to shoot today.

Rupert Stilinski
07-06-2010, 10:14 PM
I think it's pretty apparent that he will.

I hate JOB more than I can articulate, but I don't think that's the case. I've had to say this a lot the past 2 days, but I'm going to say it again. It's only Summer League! That is what they sent him to do, I don't think they'll ask him to do it quite so frequently when the games actually count for something. These games mean nothing.

Doug
07-06-2010, 10:30 PM
Mods, can we delete this thread?

Every time I see it I get a little more upset.

Since86
07-06-2010, 10:32 PM
I hate JOB more than I can articulate, but I don't think that's the case. I've had to say this a lot the past 2 days, but I'm going to say it again. It's only Summer League! That is what they sent him to do, I don't think they'll ask him to do it quite so frequently when the games actually count for something. These games mean nothing.

I see it as the exact opposite. Whenever we would scrimmage, either teammates or another school, we would work on specific areas to improve so you can get a feel for them during "real" games. You want to put an emphasis on one or two things, but you still want to play normally how you would play.

Him standing around on the perimeter isn't good. It develops bad habits. He needs to continue to do the things that he does, Instead of rolling after setting a ball screen, focus on popping out (for example). You can fade out to the line, when the ball is on your strong side so if the ball handler drives he can kick it out. And he can continue to cut when he's on the weakside, looking for a dish when he's going to the hole.

You want them to add on to their skill set, not change it. I know I debated with another poster the other day about players being established by a certain age, and to a degree he was right (in my opinion). By the time they get drafted they are the type of player they're going to be, just not at the level they will always be. Tyler isn't going to magically transform into a different type of player. The timeline for him to try and change what he is has passed long ago.

Summer league play does carry over. If Roy was playing summer league, and we watched him run the point, or play like a 2, it would raise just as many eyebrows. Summer league might not be the best way to evaluate the impact players will have during the season, but it's a good way to identify how players play, and what their strengths/weaknesses are.

Reeder
07-06-2010, 10:45 PM
It's difficult to watch McRoberts work through this management mandated machination; it's like watching someone having to perform painful, public penance. Is Josh paying the price to become "relevant?
Finally, I noted that one of the results of the prescribed camp-out at the perimeter was zero offensive rebounds from Josh. Coincidently, I just heard JOB mention during the game that offensive rebounds were going to be important to the team this year. I suspect that Josh won't be providing many of those from out on the three point line. Still, it's only summer league; I'm hoping everything gets sorted out by the time the regular season rolls around.

Anthem
07-06-2010, 10:49 PM
I hate JOB more than I can articulate, but I don't think that's the case. I've had to say this a lot the past 2 days, but I'm going to say it again. It's only Summer League! That is what they sent him to do, I don't think they'll ask him to do it quite so frequently when the games actually count for something. These games mean nothing.
I think Obie wants Josh to play an identical role in the offense that Troy does.

Do you disagree?

Rupert Stilinski
07-06-2010, 10:58 PM
I think Obie wants Josh to play an identical role in the offense that Troy does.

Do you disagree?

No I do not disagree. JOB hasn't wavered on that one bit.

I do disagree that Josh would be jacking up so many if the games had meaning.

Naptown_Seth
07-07-2010, 01:43 AM
No I do not disagree. JOB hasn't wavered on that one bit.

I do disagree that Josh would be jacking up so many if the games had meaning.
I think Anthem would agree with that. He won't shoot 12 like that, but he will shoot 5-6 per game it appears.

I wavered ever so close to PFFL when they interviewed JOB during the game. He blatantly said he would be mad if Josh didn't take those 3s and that they wanted him to stretch the floor. He also again said they want him to prove that he can pass from the high post.

The best part was where he justified all this stretch play as a way to open up the inside game for Roy and Danny. A) Danny don't play no low post game B) JOB don't let Roy get no action in the low post.

Yes, I actually went mildly retarded listening to JOB justify his crap today. I wish I thought it was just a contest or practical joke, but sadly he really buys into his own voodoo economics.

Of course he also plans on having everything because apparently not only is having the bigs stretch the floor critical, but so is offensive rebounding. Good luck making those 2 things mesh there Jimbo, I'm not entirely sure you know WTF you are talking about though if you expect your bigs to be in two places at once.


ps - one more dig at Rush who "played poorly" in OCT, NOV, DEC and then played really well the final 4 months. Why was that according to JOB? He started shooting over 40% from 3 at that point, thus he became really good.

Naptown_Seth
07-07-2010, 01:54 AM
it is no accident that players like Barkley, Larry Johnson, Mark Aquire, Adrien Dantley became excellent post up players and were able to score against much taller players. You mean "became spot up 3pt guys"? Barkley and Johnson especially moved more and more away from the rim as their career went on.

Meanwhile lanky guys like Camby continued to play more toward the inside.

Typically the 3pt shot has been a refuge for big guys nearing the end of their career and looking for a way to keep playing.


Barkley shot no more than 2.3 threes per game for his first 8 years. Then he took 2.9, 2.7, 3.2, 2.5, and 3.9 per game in years 9-13. Larry Johnson took less than 1 per game his first 3 seasons, then they brought in the arc and he attempted 2.6, 2.3 and 1.4 per. He also tried 2.5 per game in his final 2 seasons with the arc already moved back out.

Aguirre - His first 5 season he attempts 1.4, 0.9, 0.7, 1.1 and 0.8 threes per game. Then he jumps up to seasons of 1.9, 2.2, 2.2 (no, not the short arc years). He drops back toward the 1.2 range but ends his career with 2 finals seasons of 1.6 and 2.4 (and these were his two highest p36 seasons as well, going 2.8 and 3.9 p36 minutes).

Meanwhile Camby has never taken more than 0.3 per game ever in 14 seasons. Of course neither did Dantley, though he wasn't a PF anyway.


That's 6'11" 220 Camby vs 6'10" 240 McRoberts. Lanky, scrawny McRoberts without the bulk and size of a 6'6" 250 Barkley or a 6'6" 250 Johnson. Aguirre? 6'6" and 232 lbs. Dantley 6'5" and 208.

And somewhere in between was the monster Dale Davis and his 6'11" 230 lb frame, clearly a giant of inside power compared to Josh. Or how about 6'10" 230 Kemp, known for his inability to play inside due to being even more scrawny than McRoberts.

Josh is a built much closer to the guys that played inside all their career than the short, heavy guys that actually moved away from the rim.




BTW, JOB did have Foster shoot a lot more long jumpers and that carried over to the season before he was hurt. Roy already has been shooting a few 3s as well and typically was asked to work from the high post as much or more than the low post.



We are living through another Versace era, I really believe that.

IndyPacer
07-07-2010, 02:16 AM
The more ridiculous BS like this JOB does, the more likely he is to run the franchise into the ground and force someone to fire him. It's sad that's the best I can hope for while he's here. What's next? Maybe Hibbert will bring up the ball? We can then trade for Nate Robinson to play at center to "go small?" Maybe bench all the players and have the assistant coaches play instead? All this makes perfect sense in the mind of O'Brien.

Peck
07-07-2010, 03:31 AM
You mean "became spot up 3pt guys"? Barkley and Johnson especially moved more and more away from the rim as their career went on.

Meanwhile lanky guys like Camby continued to play more toward the inside.

Typically the 3pt shot has been a refuge for big guys nearing the end of their career and looking for a way to keep playing.


Barkley shot no more than 2.3 threes per game for his first 8 years. Then he took 2.9, 2.7, 3.2, 2.5, and 3.9 per game in years 9-13. Larry Johnson took less than 1 per game his first 3 seasons, then they brought in the arc and he attempted 2.6, 2.3 and 1.4 per. He also tried 2.5 per game in his final 2 seasons with the arc already moved back out.

Aguirre - His first 5 season he attempts 1.4, 0.9, 0.7, 1.1 and 0.8 threes per game. Then he jumps up to seasons of 1.9, 2.2, 2.2 (no, not the short arc years). He drops back toward the 1.2 range but ends his career with 2 finals seasons of 1.6 and 2.4 (and these were his two highest p36 seasons as well, going 2.8 and 3.9 p36 minutes).

Meanwhile Camby has never taken more than 0.3 per game ever in 14 seasons. Of course neither did Dantley, though he wasn't a PF anyway.


That's 6'11" 220 Camby vs 6'10" 240 McRoberts. Lanky, scrawny McRoberts without the bulk and size of a 6'6" 250 Barkley or a 6'6" 250 Johnson. Aguirre? 6'6" and 232 lbs. Dantley 6'5" and 208.

And somewhere in between was the monster Dale Davis and his 6'11" 230 lb frame, clearly a giant of inside power compared to Josh. Or how about 6'10" 230 Kemp, known for his inability to play inside due to being even more scrawny than McRoberts.

Josh is a built much closer to the guys that played inside all their career than the short, heavy guys that actually moved away from the rim.




BTW, JOB did have Foster shoot a lot more long jumpers and that carried over to the season before he was hurt. Roy already has been shooting a few 3s as well and typically was asked to work from the high post as much or more than the low post.



We are living through another Versace era, I really believe that.

At this point in time I believe that Versace would be an improvement. At the very least he would do the first rule of medicine "first do no harm".

indyaway
07-07-2010, 03:37 AM
Yes, I actually went mildly retarded listening to JOB justify his crap today. I wish I thought it was just a contest or practical joke, but sadly he really buys into his own voodoo economics.

Of course he also plans on having everything because apparently not only is having the bigs stretch the floor critical, but so is offensive rebounding. Good luck making those 2 things mesh there Jimbo, I'm not entirely sure you know WTF you are talking about though if you expect your bigs to be in two places at once.

Summed up my feelings listening to him throughout the game. Basically, it's all mom and apple pie with him; we need this, we're going to do that...and in the end he's listed out every ideal attribute you could hope a team would have. However, what was lacking was the 'how' he planned to accomplish this, especially in light of the contradictions that many of his strategies seems to create, as you noted above.

He basically knows the lingo of coaching, but I'm not convinced he actually knows how to coach basketball, let alone manage players which is probably more important in the NBA. Looking into his past, his biggest 'coaching' success (i.e. emphasis on play calling and strategy) was the 2nd round of the NCAA tourney in his first year w/ Dayton, which he subsequently could not replicate as he was eventually fired. His NBA record is abysmal. About the only thing that really stands out that indicates why he is an NBA coach is that he married into the Jack Ramsay family.

Ozwalt72
07-07-2010, 03:51 AM
Looking into his past, his biggest 'coaching' success (i.e. emphasis on play calling and strategy) was the 2nd round of the NCAA tourney in his first year w/ Dayton, which he subsequently could not replicate as he was eventually fired. is abysmal.

So, uh, I don't understand this AT ALL. Is a 2nd round NCAA tourney appearance a bigger coaching success than leading the Celtics to the finals? And if you are basing this on "play calling and strategy" what the hell are you using to make this judgment other than looking at his coaching win/loss and making a baseless observation?

I don't like the guy either, but damn.

kester99
07-07-2010, 05:45 AM
I thought the most telling quote from JOB today, as far as summing up his weakness as a coach, was something to the effect that 'the NBA is a stats driven league.'

He analyzes stats and trends, and thinks we should plan to shoot early, or that McBob should shoot the three, because a succesful team scores before the defense is set, or is able to spread the floor with the three....doesn't seem to matter that Josh has different strengths, or that our stress on striking early translates to 'hoist up a shot before the 9 second mark whether it's a good look or not.' It's like trying to make a left-handed kid right-handed because most succesful men were right-handed.

To me, you play to your strengths, you manage a game, you instill a winning attitude, you stress the basics....then someone can come along after the fact and do a numerical analysis of your success. But if you try to design a team based on the numbers, if you substitute for a player after he's had X minutes on the floor because statistically, performance falls off after X minutes (regardless of the flow of the game or what you can see with your own eyes right in front of you), then you turn out a mediocre product at best, and end up defending your 'coaching philosophy' by citing the numbers.

indyaway
07-07-2010, 09:41 AM
So, uh, I don't understand this AT ALL. Is a 2nd round NCAA tourney appearance a bigger coaching success than leading the Celtics to the finals? And if you are basing this on "play calling and strategy" what the hell are you using to make this judgment other than looking at his coaching win/loss and making a baseless observation?

I don't like the guy either, but damn.

What year did he lead the Celtics to the NBA finals? I see that in his first full season as Celtics head coach he went to the Conference Finals, but that's hardly the same thing. Furthermore, it disturbingly trends with his tenure at Dayton where he won with what is in effect the product of someone else's team and then devolved the performance in subsequent years.

Flat out, the only thing on his resume (which is a total failure, as defined as a losing record, at the college and pro level) that indicates why he might be an NBA coach is via his marriage. Other than that, no one looks at this guy's resume and says he's qualified to coach at the highest level.

Seriously, answer this sample SAT question:

What reason most explains why Obie is an NBA Coach:

a.) His losing record in the playoffs
b.) His losing record in the regular season
c.) His losing record at a Tier 3 college basketball program
d.) Being Jack Ramsay's son-in-law

Peck
07-07-2010, 11:58 AM
I thought the most telling quote from JOB today, as far as summing up his weakness as a coach, was something to the effect that 'the NBA is a stats driven league.'

He analyzes stats and trends, and thinks we should plan to shoot early, or that McBob should shoot the three, because a succesful team scores before the defense is set, or is able to spread the floor with the three....doesn't seem to matter that Josh has different strengths, or that our stress on striking early translates to 'hoist up a shot before the 9 second mark whether it's a good look or not.' It's like trying to make a left-handed kid right-handed because most succesful men were right-handed.

To me, you play to your strengths, you manage a game, you instill a winning attitude, you stress the basics....then someone can come along after the fact and do a numerical analysis of your success. But if you try to design a team based on the numbers, if you substitute for a player after he's had X minutes on the floor because statistically, performance falls off after X minutes (regardless of the flow of the game or what you can see with your own eyes right in front of you), then you turn out a mediocre product at best, and end up defending your 'coaching philosophy' by citing the numbers.

If there was a thank you times infinety button I would have hit it here.

Yes, THIS.

Nothing and I mean nothing more describes JOB than what Kester has just said.

Edit: The only thing that would have made this post from Kester better would have been if he figured out a way to add the word hubris in there.

Bball
07-07-2010, 12:31 PM
The more ridiculous BS like this JOB does, the more likely he is to run the franchise into the ground and force someone to fire him.

Sadly, if he hasn't given the FO reason to fire him by now then I don't know how we can predict he will ever be fired....

Since86
07-07-2010, 12:38 PM
I think Anthem would agree with that. He won't shoot 12 like that, but he will shoot 5-6 per game it appears.

I wavered ever so close to PFFL when they interviewed JOB during the game. He blatantly said he would be mad if Josh didn't take those 3s and that they wanted him to stretch the floor. He also again said they want him to prove that he can pass from the high post.

The best part was where he justified all this stretch play as a way to open up the inside game for Roy and Danny. A) Danny don't play no low post game B) JOB don't let Roy get no action in the low post.

Yes, I actually went mildly retarded listening to JOB justify his crap today. I wish I thought it was just a contest or practical joke, but sadly he really buys into his own voodoo economics.


Wait, wait, wait.....

You mean to tell me, that Anthem was serious when he mentioned JOb saying that stuff? Oh God, I thought he was joking.

Does the man even have fully functioning brain? Logic and reason to him, must be like Mandarin and Arabic is to me.

Sookie
07-07-2010, 12:39 PM
I thought the most telling quote from JOB today, as far as summing up his weakness as a coach, was something to the effect that 'the NBA is a stats driven league.'

He analyzes stats and trends, and thinks we should plan to shoot early, or that McBob should shoot the three, because a succesful team scores before the defense is set, or is able to spread the floor with the three....doesn't seem to matter that Josh has different strengths, or that our stress on striking early translates to 'hoist up a shot before the 9 second mark whether it's a good look or not.' It's like trying to make a left-handed kid right-handed because most succesful men were right-handed.

To me, you play to your strengths, you manage a game, you instill a winning attitude, you stress the basics....then someone can come along after the fact and do a numerical analysis of your success. But if you try to design a team based on the numbers, if you substitute for a player after he's had X minutes on the floor because statistically, performance falls off after X minutes (regardless of the flow of the game or what you can see with your own eyes right in front of you), then you turn out a mediocre product at best, and end up defending your 'coaching philosophy' by citing the numbers.

I agree

The only thing I'm not sure of is if it's a chicken and egg thing.

"JOB likes doing this because stats say so." vs "JOB likes doing certain things and cites some wacky number to back it up."

For example you had the Watson/Ford/Murphy +/- debacle.

"Why did you switch from Ford to Watson."
"Watson had a better +/-"
"Murphy has the worst +/- on the team."
"+/- isn't everything.."

perhaps it's just a selective viewing of the stats..


Anyway..as for poor Josh. Anyone question if JOB knows that Murphy's days here are limited, and is trying to replace him?

Bball
07-07-2010, 01:06 PM
Logic and reason to him, must be like Mandarin and Arabic is to me.

Unlike O'Brien, I think you'd eventually figure it out...

Brad8888
08-09-2011, 11:09 AM
Just brought this thread back up because I wanted to say that I continue to be thankful for the blessing of Frank Vogel and our transition to "smashmouth basketball". Let us never forget the mistakes of the past so that we will not make them in the future.

Goooooooo Pacers!!!!!!!!

BTW, Vogel was just supporting his head coach despite it now being apparent that he privately disagreed with him. What a team player Vogel was and still is!

pacergod2
08-09-2011, 11:28 AM
I wonder what Josh is doing this off-season. I wonder what areas of his game he is really working hard on? What does his strength and conditioning program consist of? Anybody who knows him might be able to give us some info? :D I hope we bring him back, but it depends on the other FA additions we make.

sportfireman
08-09-2011, 11:45 AM
I wonder what Josh is doing this off-season. I wonder what areas of his game he is really working hard on? What does his strength and conditioning program consist of? Anybody who knows him might be able to give us some info? :D I hope we bring him back, but it depends on the other FA additions we make.

I think it depends more so on how much he wants in salary. If he doesn't ask for too much, I think they will bring him back.

Speed
08-09-2011, 12:05 PM
Makes me sick to my stomach to think about things that happened back then, Roy getting too slim, Josh launching 3s as this focus in the offseason, just nonsense in the least, damaging at the worst. Really drives me crazy. Makes me think of the preseason q and a deal they had on Pacers.com where DC was asked to rank what his offensive set strengths were and he basically listed it the opposite of what Obie ran... Then into the season the team proceeded to play against his strengths under Obie. Too many examples to even count.

I wasn't as harsh on Obie as others, at the time, in reflection I was wrong.

Mackey_Rose
08-09-2011, 12:50 PM
It shouldn't have been the focus of his entire offseason, but he did shoot 38% from out there, so those saying that he lacked the ability to become a decent outside shooter weren't entirely correct.

BillS
08-09-2011, 01:44 PM
It shouldn't have been the focus of his entire offseason, but he did shoot 38% from out there, so those saying that he lacked the ability to become a decent outside shooter weren't entirely correct.

:shhh: Working on any skill valued by The Coach Who Shall Not Be Named is EVIL EVIL EVIL. :mob:

neosmndrew
08-09-2011, 02:32 PM
I think Troy Murphy is living proof that a 4 who can spread the floor is nice to have but doesn't make your offense amazing. We need McBob to maintain his high level of athleticism and energy for him to be as useful as he can be.

Trader Joe
08-09-2011, 04:40 PM
It shouldn't have been the focus of his entire offseason, but he did shoot 38% from out there, so those saying that he lacked the ability to become a decent outside shooter weren't entirely correct.

Exactly.

BTW, I don't think Roy getting slim was a negative last year. Roy was a big plodding oaf before last offseason. He just went a little too far.

Sandman21
08-09-2011, 04:50 PM
Thanks for the awful flashback to that summer league game....

Bball
08-09-2011, 04:56 PM
:shhh: Working on any skill valued by The Coach Who Shall Not Be Named is EVIL EVIL EVIL. :mob:

Especially when it's the only skill valued by the coach....

Sookie
08-09-2011, 05:00 PM
It shouldn't have been the focus of his entire offseason, but he did shoot 38% from out there, so those saying that he lacked the ability to become a decent outside shooter weren't entirely correct.

Right, but it would have been worth much more to the team if he had worked on his mid-range.

And actually, him, Roy, and Tyler need to just practice setting picks and screens this summer. That was pathetic last season (although Josh was significantly better than Roy and Tyler)

Tyler leaves the pick way too soon and Roy and Josh don't seem to like contact..

imawhat
08-09-2011, 05:00 PM
I still get sick to my stomach reading this thread.

I was one who thought McRoberts should spend little/no time shooting threes, and I never thought he'd shoot as high a % as he finished the season with. That's a credit to Josh's hard work and the coaching staff's direction. Now, let's hope he never shoots another three for the rest of his career.

Constellations
08-09-2011, 05:21 PM
Why work on 3's when this man slaps gravity in the face?

Mackey_Rose
08-09-2011, 05:37 PM
Right, but it would have been worth much more to the team if he had worked on his mid-range.

And actually, him, Roy, and Tyler need to just practice setting picks and screens this summer. That was pathetic last season (although Josh was significantly better than Roy and Tyler)

Tyler leaves the pick way too soon and Roy and Josh don't seem to like contact..

How many times was Josh used as an on-the-ball screener last season? You could count them on one hand.

I would say that McRoberts was the best off-the-ball screener the Pacers' had, I don't know where this idea that he doesn't like contact came from. Foster is the only other Pacer who I would even be willing to listen to an argument for. The two-man games that Josh and Dunleavy played opposite the ball were a often a thing of beauty.

Josh's athleticism and game make him ideally suited to be the screener man on a pick-and-roll or pick-and-pop. He can get to the rim if his man helps to far, or last season he proved that he can also pop out and hit the shot if that's what the defense is giving him.

Why wasn't he used more in that fashion?

Sookie
08-09-2011, 06:24 PM
How many times was Josh used as an on-the-ball screener last season? You could count them on one hand.

I would say that McRoberts was the best off-the-ball screener the Pacers' had, I don't know where this idea that he doesn't like contact came from. Foster is the only other Pacer who I would even be willing to listen to an argument for. The two-man games that Josh and Dunleavy played opposite the ball were a often a thing of beauty.

Josh's athleticism and game make him ideally suited to be the screener man on a pick-and-roll or pick-and-pop. He can get to the rim if his man helps to far, or last season he proved that he can also pop out and hit the shot if that's what the defense is giving him.

Why wasn't he used more in that fashion?

I would assume it doesn't happen as much because he's not good at it.

I think the idea came from how he acts in the post and how he plays. He's an athletic finesse player. He'd rather go around than through. Which is fine.

He was just, rarely used in screens, I figured since Vogel wanted a more PnR game, that simply meant Josh wasn't good at it.

Foster (although Tyler should have been) was the only one that was used that way and could set a good screen, yet unfortunately having him make a shot was an issue.

And although I agree, Dun and Josh played extremely well together and ran good sets, I didn't think Josh's picks, themselves, were all that great. But that Dun and Josh's other skills (Dun's shooting, both of their passing, Josh's athleticism, the obvious good chemistry between the two) made up for it.

spazzxb
08-09-2011, 06:57 PM
Especially when it's the only skill valued by the coach....

Thanks for the attempt to bring back a useless abrasive debate. When I think of making another attempt to separate the truth for the inaccurate statements of hate I just want to do this.

<a href="http://s491.photobucket.com/albums/rr272/spazzxb/?action=view&amp;current=coffethrowup.gif" target="_blank"><img src="http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr272/spazzxb/coffethrowup.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

I know its summer and boring, but who actually thinks there is value in discussing the old coach and/or the the character people turned him into.


*I really just wanted to post this gif. have fun

pacersgroningen
08-09-2011, 07:10 PM
I still get sick to my stomach reading this thread.

I was one who thought McRoberts should spend little/no time shooting threes, and I never thought he'd shoot as high a % as he finished the season with. That's a credit to Josh's hard work and the coaching staff's direction. Now, let's hope he never shoots another three for the rest of his career.
If it's the game-winner of the ECF game 7 against the Bulls and he makes it, I'll disagree. :)

Brad8888
08-09-2011, 08:43 PM
I still get sick to my stomach reading this thread.

I was one who thought McRoberts should spend little/no time shooting threes, and I never thought he'd shoot as high a % as he finished the season with. That's a credit to Josh's hard work and the coaching staff's direction. Now, let's hope he never shoots another three for the rest of his career.

The Pacers would have had the FG% record for one quarter if Josh hadn't felt comfortable attempting the 3 at the end of the quarter of the Denver game, too. :cry:

Major Cold
08-09-2011, 11:10 PM
The best screener on this team is Jeff Foster hands down. Hibbert is better than many of you are giving him credit. The reason why we don't see it is because our wings are poor at V-cuts into the screener.

Dunleavy is the best mis-direction V-cutter on this team and that is why he and Hibbert had good chemistry. The problem Mike had was he doesn't have the "lift" on his shot.

Eleazar
08-10-2011, 12:43 AM
I still get sick to my stomach reading this thread.

I was one who thought McRoberts should spend little/no time shooting threes, and I never thought he'd shoot as high a % as he finished the season with. That's a credit to Josh's hard work and the coaching staff's direction. Now, let's hope he never shoots another three for the rest of his career.

If he shoots a similar percentage as he did this year I wouldn't be against him shooting 3's, but I wouldn't want it to be a major part of his game. Just something he occasionally pulls out when he is left completely open, and it isn't within the last minute or so of a close game.

Hall O'Point
08-10-2011, 06:27 AM
Josh should be taking 500 SHOTS a day from all different spots on the floor, with 3's not being a priority.

The key is that we sign him. He's the most undervalued guy on our team. All people do here is either use tons of superlatives to talk about how "tight" he is, or tons of dumb McDildo type retarded names to say he sucks.

Sign him and use him for what he's good at and he's the perfect Pacer.

pacergod2
08-10-2011, 10:19 AM
Josh should be taking 500 SHOTS a day from all different spots on the floor, with 3's not being a priority.

The key is that we sign him. He's the most undervalued guy on our team. All people do here is either use tons of superlatives to talk about how "tight" he is, or tons of dumb McDildo type retarded names to say he sucks.

Sign him and use him for what he's good at and he's the perfect Pacer.

I absolutely agree. I would make him work on the PnR. He is the perfect guy for it on our roster. Tyler made the right changes by working on that top of the key jumper in the PnPop.

I think the biggest problem with our PnR, is that the PGs leave way too early. I'm looking at you Collison. He never lets the bigs get set. When they are, he usually doesn't rub off the screen well. He leaves space and gets his bigs in constant trouble. Either fouling or in bad positions with the ball. I would love to see our guys run the PnR all off-season.

Eleazar
08-10-2011, 05:47 PM
I absolutely agree. I would make him work on the PnR. He is the perfect guy for it on our roster. Tyler made the right changes by working on that top of the key jumper in the PnPop.

I think the biggest problem with our PnR, is that the PGs leave way too early. I'm looking at you Collison. He never lets the bigs get set. When they are, he usually doesn't rub off the screen well. He leaves space and gets his bigs in constant trouble. Either fouling or in bad positions with the ball. I would love to see our guys run the PnR all off-season.

And people say the PnR is his strength.

pacergod2
08-10-2011, 05:57 PM
I realize that. I just didn't see it. Maybe our bigs are that bad and I just don't know what I am looking at.

I did not think Collison was great in the pick and roll, both offensively and defensively. Of course, we had a ridiculous rotation of PFs and a complete overhaul of a system that didn't utilize PnR well this year that would disallow him to get comfortable.

Bball
08-10-2011, 06:50 PM
Thanks for the attempt to bring back a useless abrasive debate.


Now, now, now... It was just a joke. Just like O'Brien's coaching.

:rimshot:

Eleazar
08-10-2011, 09:53 PM
I realize that. I just didn't see it. Maybe our bigs are that bad and I just don't know what I am looking at.

I did not think Collison was great in the pick and roll, both offensively and defensively. Of course, we had a ridiculous rotation of PFs and a complete overhaul of a system that didn't utilize PnR well this year that would disallow him to get comfortable.

I don't disagree, I was just saying.

Sookie
08-10-2011, 10:07 PM
I absolutely agree. I would make him work on the PnR. He is the perfect guy for it on our roster. Tyler made the right changes by working on that top of the key jumper in the PnPop.

I think the biggest problem with our PnR, is that the PGs leave way too early. I'm looking at you Collison. He never lets the bigs get set. When they are, he usually doesn't rub off the screen well. He leaves space and gets his bigs in constant trouble. Either fouling or in bad positions with the ball. I would love to see our guys run the PnR all off-season.

I gotta disagree there, the problem was with our bigs.

We never ran it with Josh and barely with Roy. It was mostly run with Tyler and Foster.

Tyler leaves way too early. This can often get the PG in trouble (double teamed) but Tyler ends up open, so he ends up with a wide open shot.

Foster can't make a jump shot..and isn't that great with the layups either. Meaning the PnR with the PGs is really an attempt to get the PG a shot. (And because Foster is a good screener, they usually do get one)

Lou Bega
08-11-2011, 10:56 AM
Last time I checked, Josh was a free agent. Why wouldnt he be working on his weaknesses in the off season? I am sure Dale/Antonio worked on their 3 pt shooting every offseason as well.

JEM
08-11-2011, 11:57 AM
http://www.indystar.com/article/20100705/SPORTS04/7050313/1088/SPORTS04/Summer-school-now-in-session




I really find it incredibly difficult for anyone, I mean anyone to justify McBob working on a 3pt shot! How about you learn to stick the 10' footer first

Teams dont pay attention to him so you may as well hit the shot that hurts the most.

JEM
08-11-2011, 12:00 PM
I gotta disagree there, the problem was with our bigs.

We never ran it with Josh and barely with Roy. It was mostly run with Tyler and Foster.

Tyler leaves way too early. This can often get the PG in trouble (double teamed) but Tyler ends up open, so he ends up with a wide open shot.

Foster can't make a jump shot..and isn't that great with the layups either. Meaning the PnR with the PGs is really an attempt to get the PG a shot. (And because Foster is a good screener, they usually do get one)

If you go back and look at those plays where Tyler left early.. You may see on some that it was because the PG never ever came close to using the pick properly. Best thing to do then is try and catch your defender napping because the play is screwed anyway.

pacergod2
08-11-2011, 12:03 PM
I gotta disagree there, the problem was with our bigs.

We never ran it with Josh and barely with Roy. It was mostly run with Tyler and Foster.

Tyler leaves way too early. This can often get the PG in trouble (double teamed) but Tyler ends up open, so he ends up with a wide open shot.

Foster can't make a jump shot..and isn't that great with the layups either. Meaning the PnR with the PGs is really an attempt to get the PG a shot. (And because Foster is a good screener, they usually do get one)

Yes, I absolutely agree. I mentioned that last year was a terrible example of how to work the pick and roll into your offense. I think our bigs had their fair share of downfalls in the pick and roll as well, I just usually put the onus of a great pick and roll on the PG moreso than the big. The big has to make them pay for their decision, don't get me wrong, but its the PG that gets it started and if its not right from the get go it is on them. There were SOOO many bad pick and rolls this year. Were there good excuses as to why? Yes, but move on and make it another weapon.

I think McRoberts has the best upside for using the PnR. If you have an athletic big like McRoberts, why wouldn't you want him in a position to succeed by rolling to the rim and throwing some big ones down? Finishing with contact. Forcing the defense to rotate towards a good passer.

If I were McRoberts and the Pacers brought in a big in front of me, I would probably look to a team with a great PG and an opportunity. I think the Nets might be a decent fit and have some money to spend. Go play with Amare in NY, but I don't know if they can afford him. Denver would be a good spot if Kenyon Martin leaves. Splitting playing time with Birdman. Two good PGs for the pick and roll in Denver and push the tempo. Sacramento might consider throwing some money at him. A reasonable deal for a young team. A guy that might fit well with Cousins in the front court rotation. Tyreke running the pick and roll. Charlotte with Kemba.

Sookie
08-11-2011, 12:19 PM
If you go back and look at those plays where Tyler left early.. You may see on some that it was because the PG never ever came close to using the pick properly. Best thing to do then is try and catch your defender napping because the play is screwed anyway.

Tyler leaves early almost every single time.

I actually think Tyler could be the best at the pick and pop, because of his free throw jumper, and he looks like he should be able to set hard picks, he just needs to be a bit more patient.

I just can't blame the PG's here because it's something both are good at and something our post players are pretty terrible at. Heck, people were almost amazed at how well DC could run it with West.

Scot Pollard
08-11-2011, 03:35 PM
Regarding Josh, I'd definitely be willing to re-sign him to backup Roy with Tyler playing 6th man off the bench backing up whoever we decide to get to start at PF.

Josh is a good big man that you would love to have to add depth. He's fairly decent at center and he and Tyler make up a good big man lineup and would be nice to have off our bench moving forward.

As far as Josh and 3 point shooting, he clearly did not want to take those shots. Notice how as soon as Vogel took over, Josh stopped shooting them and played more comfortably inside.

Justin Tyme
08-11-2011, 05:02 PM
Regarding Josh, I'd definitely be willing to re-sign him to backup Roy with Tyler playing 6th man off the bench backing up whoever we decide to get to start at PF.

Josh is a good big man that you would love to have to add depth. He's fairly decent at center and he and Tyler make up a good big man lineup and would be nice to have off our bench moving forward.

As far as Josh and 3 point shooting, he clearly did not want to take those shots. Notice how as soon as Vogel took over, Josh stopped shooting them and played more comfortably inside.


For the 1,000 time, McBob isn't b/u center material. He has NO back to the basket game nor does his "D" shout CENTER. Your avatar was 10 times the b/u center McBob could ever be, and I was never really impressed with Pollard.

Anthem
08-11-2011, 06:35 PM
For the 1,000 time, McBob isn't b/u center material. He has NO back to the basket game nor does his "D" shout CENTER. Your avatar was 10 times the b/u center McBob could ever be, and I was never really impressed with Pollard.
I agree that Mac's offensive game bears no resemblance to Roy's.

So?

Does Josh have a worse back-to-the-basket game than Foster?

We'd have been a better team last year if Josh had gotten Solo's minutes at backup center.

BlueNGold
08-11-2011, 11:15 PM
If McBob is your backup C, you are simply not a very good team. He only looks decent because we got used to Troy Murphy.

McBob's D is generally ok but his post D is not that good against true C's. Basically, he gets overpowered physically...although he can block some shots. I like him as a player ok, but more against athletic PF's because he can move well.

Edit: Just to be clear, I am perfectly fine with him being the backup PF. He may even be the answer at the backup 4 long term.

Justin Tyme
08-12-2011, 11:18 AM
I agree that Mac's offensive game bears no resemblance to Roy's.

So?

Does Josh have a worse back-to-the-basket game than Foster?

We'd have been a better team last year if Josh had gotten Solo's minutes at backup center.



I never ever considered Solo a center either!

Shawne Williams played Center for the Knicks at times last year, but that doesn't make him a Center either. The only reason Williams played Center was the Knicks had no one else. Williams has no back to basket game, has no Center "D" skills, is athletic, and can shoot 3's. That description just described McBob. As Bluengold said, "if McBob is the b/u center then the Pacers are not a very good team."

Surely Bird can find a true b/u Center that is better than McBob! If not, the Pacers will be in a hurt.

BoomerTheFriendlyPanther
08-12-2011, 12:47 PM
Do ya'll think McRoberts will be back next year? Lets start with that before.

Hansbrough is 20x the future Pacer than McRoberts is and the fact that we'd like a true starter is really writing McRoberts off the team. Larry Bird loves Hansbrough. He won't be going anywhere anytime soon and coming off the bench is great for him and the Pacers.

I personally really want the Pacers to go get Nene Hilario. Getting him and Hibbert in front will be absolutely awesome. Talk about a good team.

I don't want David West at all. He's old, injured and not worth the money. I'm sorry.

In addition, he is a former 2 time All-Star and worked well will Collison so I wouldn't bash my head if we were to get him, but we better not overpay for him. Coming off an ACL tear at 33 isn't something to overpay for.

Carl Landry isn't going to get us anywhere either.

PR07
08-12-2011, 12:56 PM
He should first start trying to get some arch on that jumpshot. I mean man is that thing flat.

pacergod2
08-12-2011, 02:32 PM
He should first start trying to get some arch on that jumpshot. I mean man is that thing flat.

Who, Tyler?

Mackey_Rose
08-12-2011, 05:22 PM
Do ya'll think McRoberts will be back next year? Lets start with that before.

Hansbrough is 20x the future Pacer than McRoberts is and the fact that we'd like a true starter is really writing McRoberts off the team. Larry Bird loves Hansbrough. He won't be going anywhere anytime soon and coming off the bench is great for him and the Pacers.

By any measure, Hansbrough is 20x better than McRoberts.

Anthem
08-12-2011, 10:34 PM
By any measure, Hansbrough is 20x better than McRoberts.
"Measure" generally means something quantitative.

Eleazar
08-12-2011, 10:37 PM
By any measure, Hansbrough is 20x better than McRoberts.

I don't know what measure you are talking about?

BlueNGold
08-12-2011, 11:22 PM
By any measure, Hansbrough is 20x better than McRoberts.

By any measure, this is an exaggeration...;)

But sure, Hans is quite a bit better than McBob. Hans can play the game at an elite level in the playoffs. McBob is probably not giving you that. Josh is a good guy to bring off the bench but that's it.

imawhat
08-13-2011, 12:17 PM
****, here it goes.

Brad8888
08-13-2011, 12:22 PM
:confused:

BlueNGold
08-13-2011, 11:18 PM
****, here it goes.

Is it better than discussing Michael Beasley incidents?

Seriously though, "it" is not going anywhere. There is no longer a debate about who the better PF is now. It was in question mid season last year...but that question was answered by the NC product.

Sookie
08-13-2011, 11:45 PM
By any measure, this is an exaggeration...;)

But sure, Hans is quite a bit better than McBob. Hans can play the game at an elite level in the playoffs. McBob is probably not giving you that. Josh is a good guy to bring off the bench but that's it.

Josh was hurt, and he still played better than Hans did in four out of the five games.

Hans had the best game though, out of both, in a significant fashion.

I don't think we answered any question.

I do think though, that it's obvious which of the two of them Larry will keep, if he has to make a choice.

Eleazar
08-14-2011, 01:37 AM
Is it better than discussing Michael Beasley incidents?

Seriously though, "it" is not going anywhere. There is no longer a debate about who the better PF is now. It was in question mid season last year...but that question was answered by the NC product.

Hardly.

BlueNGold
08-14-2011, 07:58 AM
Josh was hurt, and he still played better than Hans did in four out of the five games.

Hans had the best game though, out of both, in a significant fashion.

I don't think we answered any question.

I do think though, that it's obvious which of the two of them Larry will keep, if he has to make a choice.

I guess I'm wrong (about there still being a question for a lot of people).

It took me the entire season to evaluate it. It's quite understandable that people struggle with it because the players bring completely different things to the table. But, clearly, enough has been spread out on the table over the course of time to make a call on this.

BTW, the fact Bird favors Hans (as well) isn't needed to make this conclusion...

PacerDude
08-14-2011, 08:32 AM
.............. the players bring completely different things to the table..........Well, there ya go.

They have different games and at times, the team needs both of them. Who is better ?? Who's the better passer ?? Who's the better finisher ?? Who's got a better jumper ?? Who's more of a bull in the paint ??

This is just a never-ending discussion and there won't be a clear-cut winner. Carry on ...............

BlueNGold
08-14-2011, 12:30 PM
Well, there ya go.

They have different games and at times, the team needs both of them. Who is better ?? Who's the better passer ?? Who's the better finisher ?? Who's got a better jumper ?? Who's more of a bull in the paint ??

This is just a never-ending discussion and there won't be a clear-cut winner. Carry on ...............

I'm glad you were able to comprehend that segment of my post.

Read on to get the full message.

ksuttonjr76
08-14-2011, 01:53 PM
It would depend on who acquire when we're able to sign free agents and whether it forces Tyler to the bench. Personally, McRoberts is NOT a bad player to have if you're looking for depth and a different skillset from your PF spot.

If Tyler is the first rotation at the PF spot, then we have no need for McRoberts.

PacerDude
08-14-2011, 02:48 PM
I'm glad you were able to comprehend that segment of my post.

Read on to get the full message.And that's your opinion.

Others differ. Of course Bird has a chub for Tyler - he picked him. Good / bad / indifferent - Bird will favor Tyler over Josh. That's not insight.

Mackey_Rose
08-14-2011, 07:26 PM
BTW, the fact Bird favors Hans (as well) isn't needed to make this conclusion...

if anything that should prevent you from making that definitive conclusion. The man thinks Lance is his best player.

Eleazar
08-14-2011, 07:46 PM
I think sometimes people hold GM's and players(especially retired players) higher when it comes to player evaluations than most of them really deserve. You don't have to look any further than Isaiah Thomas to realize being a great player doesn't mean you are good at evaluating talent, or the Detroit ex-GM (I believe his name was Miller?) to realize being a GM doesn't mean you are automatically smarter than a sports nerd that is constantly consumed in the sport. Often times it isn't those who are supremely skilled that are the best coaches or GM's. In fact I would say more times than not it is the lesser skilled who are better coaches and GM's because they had to rely on their knowledge of the game in order to play, instead of just being more skilled or athletic than everyone else.

BlueNGold
08-14-2011, 09:33 PM
I think sometimes people hold GM's and players(especially retired players) higher when it comes to player evaluations than most of them really deserve. You don't have to look any further than Isaiah Thomas to realize being a great player doesn't mean you are good at evaluating talent, or the Detroit ex-GM (I believe his name was Miller?) to realize being a GM doesn't mean you are automatically smarter than a sports nerd that is constantly consumed in the sport. Often times it isn't those who are supremely skilled that are the best coaches or GM's. In fact I would say more times than not it is the lesser skilled who are better coaches and GM's because they had to rely on their knowledge of the game in order to play, instead of just being more skilled or athletic than everyone else.

I agree with the substance of what you are saying, but Zeke, while a terrible business man and a poor coach, had a very good eye for talent. I think he had a hand in picking McGrady or Kobe didn't he?

BlueNGold
08-14-2011, 11:01 PM
if anything that should prevent you from making that definitive conclusion. The man thinks Lance is his best player.

Bird is generally pretty good at evaluating talent and making picks. I would rate him somewhere around average. But he has some blunders...and I question his judgment (in general) which is why I wouldn't rely on him for anything.

If he thinks Lance is the best player on the team, he must think Lance can play PG. We shall see. I think Larry also thought Sarunas could play the position and we all know how that turned out.

If Lance can be the starting PG, he might be one of our better players but I'd have to see a lot more from Lance Stephenson to conclude he is better than Granger on a daily basis or better than Paul George going forward.