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gopacers1179
07-04-2010, 03:13 AM
draft a PF in Tyler and pass on 3 legit PG's of the future in 2009 when the following years draft would be loaded with PF's? It seems idiotic/moronic that upper management couldnt predict that 2010's draft would be big man heavy and short on PG's. Who's at fault here? Bird? Scouts? the GM?

I understand that we're probably in the bottom 5 of the worst drafting teams in all of the NBA the last 30 years but this is just ridiculous. How cant the Pacers owners not see that we suck at drafting and find a real talent evaluator? Outside of Reggie, Smits, D.Davis, this organization is a complete embarrassment on draft night.

Since we didnt choose Lawson, Holliday, or Collison we're now left with obvious desperation to solve our PG position and every team in the league knows it and wont offer anyone without robbing us in the deal.

Ive been a loyal Pacers fan since 1989 and Im considering putting my love for the Pacers on the shelf for a bit and root for the OKC Thunder, who have a coach, management, and players who I admire and enjoy watching play. This organization has been spewing/wasting our drafts and Im sick of it. We all know the Pacers will never sign a quality free agent because, theyve NEVER had or will so the draft needs to be our #1 strong suit. You'd figure this would be obvious but nobody has corrected it since Ive paid attention the last 20 years.

Day-V
07-04-2010, 03:16 AM
Ive been a loyal Pacers fan since 1989 and Im considering putting my love for the Pacers on the shelf for a bit and root for the OKC Thunder

Don't seem very loyal to me......

gopacers1179
07-04-2010, 03:19 AM
Don't seem very loyal to me...... I said "for a bit". Funny how you ignore my strong argument to point that one statement out. Get real dude and respond with something Pacer related. You lose

joew8302
07-04-2010, 03:29 AM
draft a PF in Tyler and pass on 3 legit PG's of the future in 2009 when the following years draft would be loaded with PF's? It seems idiotic/moronic that upper management couldnt predict that 2010's draft would be big man heavy and short on PG's. Who's at fault here? Bird? Scouts? the GM?

I understand that we're probably in the bottom 5 of the worst drafting teams in all of the NBA the last 30 years but this is just ridiculous. How cant the Pacers owners not see that we suck at drafting and find a real talent evaluator? Outside of Reggie, Smits, D.Davis, this organization is a complete embarrassment on draft night.

Since we didnt choose Lawson, Holliday, or Collison we're now left with obvious desperation to solve our PG position and every team in the league knows it and wont offer anyone without robbing us in the deal.

Ive been a loyal Pacers fan since 1989 and Im considering putting my love for the Pacers on the shelf for a bit and root for the OKC Thunder, who have a coach, management, and players who I admire and enjoy watching play. This organization has been spewing/wasting our drafts and Im sick of it. We all know the Pacers will never sign a quality free agent because, theyve NEVER had or will so the draft needs to be our #1 strong suit. You'd figure this would be obvious but nobody has corrected it since Ive paid attention the last 20 years.


Fight the good fight. Lets all follow your lead and abandon the team!

gopacers1179
07-04-2010, 03:35 AM
another post where someone ignores my multi paragraph argument over Pacers draft history and goes onto mention the only thing I joked about in the post. Solid posters here. Says alot about this forum so far

Day-V
07-04-2010, 03:37 AM
I said "for a bit". Funny how you ignore my strong argument to point that one statement out. Get real dude and respond with something Pacer related. You lose

Your "strong argument" is nothing we haven't heard on here constantly for over a month now. I think at this point we get it......Bird missed the boat on those PG's. But, in defense of that Draft.....Tyler is a very talented player who just had some unfortunate health issues. If he can recover from that ear infection-thing (which by all accounts he seems to be doing), then I have no reason to believe that he won't be a terrific player for us. We "missed" on some PG's, but we got a helluva player anyway. There's no guarantee that any of these guys are going to be franchise players.


In regards to this draft, if anything you have to commend Bird for sticking to his guns and not biting on bad trades or reaching for PG's. We still have what? 4 months left until the season starts? Still plenty of time to make a trade or two to go get a guy with all of our expirings we have.


Finally, and this is just my opinion, a true "loyal" fan should never even get the idea of swapping teams. Leaving your team because they have had troubles in recent years to root for a team that's on the rise........seems like nothing more than a good ol' fashioned Bandwagon jump.


And again, just my opinion.

gopacers1179
07-04-2010, 03:45 AM
Im not critical of the Tyler pick specifically, but when your glaring weakness is the PG position and you pass on them when the following years draft is loaded with big guys whos talent rivals Tylers, it doesnt compute to anyone with half a brain.

Im a loyal Pacer fan for life but Im so just jealous of OKC. Not a "bandwagon" fan like you suggest, just fed up of upper management setting this team back year after year.

You say theres time to fix things with trades and exp deals, but honestly, I dont have any faith whatever decision they make will be correct. Not to say it wont be right, but its unlikely from what we've seen so far in the decision dept.

quinnthology
07-04-2010, 04:00 AM
We MISSED on all the PG's, but we got a "helluva" player anyway.

fixed

2minutes twowa
07-04-2010, 04:06 AM
It also helps to have very high picks. If you consistently have top 5 picks, chances are pretty good you're gonna get some great players. If Portland takes Durant instead of Oden, I doubt you would be as jealous of OKC. Bird picked Tyler over those PGs quite simply because he felt Tyler was the best player at that pick.

I have to disagree with your opinion that the Pacers are horrible at the draft. As a small market team, the great Pacers teams of the 90s and early 2000s were primarily built through the draft. You mentioned Reggie, Rik and Dale, but I would have to say they did a pretty good job drafting Chuck Person, AD, Travis Best, Jeff Foster, Dampier and more recently, Rush, Hibbert and Price.

Peck
07-04-2010, 04:06 AM
"Outside of Reggie, Smits, D.Davis, this organization is a complete embarrassment on draft night."

Um, wouldn't Danny Granger qualify as not an embarrassment?

Also while I don't want to let them off the hook totally you do have to understand that for most of the 90's and the first 6 seasons of this decade the Pacers made the playoffs so therefor our draft position has not been what you would call ideal. (actually it is in fact ideal because you don't want to be in the lottery but for the sake of this conversation let's assume it's bad).

This draft pick was the first top 10 draft pick (of our own) since the late 80's.

So while you can argue that we have hit very few home runs, I would consider Danny an absoute home run at 17 BTW, we have had several base hits and very few strike outs.

Al Harrington has had a long NBA career so while he didn't work out for us as well as we hoped he was a solid pick.

Travis Best, who I didn't really like all that well, had a long NBA career and was part of our success as we went to the finals.

Same can be said of Austin Croshere.

Heck we have even had a couple of second round picks have long and decent careers and one of them went on to be an all-star (Antonio Davis).

Yes, last year right now it looks like they missed the boat on that draft.

I like Tyler and I think if he can get healthy he will be a good player. But given the opprotunity to have a do over sure almost everyone would pick a point guard.

Now with a caveat.

If A.J. Price did not blow out his knee this summer I think that draft looks a lot better as I think he really played more like a late first round pick and not a second round pick.

However with his knee out, who knows how he will be.

gopacers1179
07-04-2010, 04:25 AM
Please evaluate our draft picks and ignore my comments if you like. If you take an honest look, you'll have to see this team cannot evaluate talent whatsoever. You'd think someone calling the shots up top would see and correct this flaw in our draft picks. To the Pacers credit its not like theyve had many lottery picks but damn most of all our draft picks last 20 years went somewhere else in their prime. Its just not logical and is a glaring flaw and cannot be ignored any longer. We didnt draft Foster either.


2010- Paul George- has upside and had to be taken all things considering.
Lance- whatever. I have no faith. Same with Magnum P.I

2009
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Tyler Hansbrough North Carolina - jury is out for sure but we passed on so many promising pg's that we had to take one considering the next years draft had PF's galore. Idiotic and should cost someone their job
2 A.J. Price Connecticut- jeezus, this guy mightve risked his career in a charity game. Whatever. Idiot.

2008
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Brandon Rush- I havent given up on Rush. I havent gave up on being happy trading in the right deal tho.
1 Roy Hibbert-solid pick. Love getting him for JO.

2006
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Shawne Williams University of Memphis- die Bird over this one.
2 Alexander Johnson Florida State University - lol

2005
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Danny Granger New Mexico - solid pick who fell from a high projection and the Pacers had no other choice but to take him.
2 Erazem Lorbek Slovenia - who knows wtf

2004
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 David Harrison Colorado -who interviewed this clown? Who evaluated him? He needs to be fired immediately!
2 Rashad Wright Georgia- lol who?

2003
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
2 James Jones Miami Fla - blah, lol, whatever

2002
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Fred Jones Oregon omg this was HORRIBLE!! This guy wasnt needed whatsoever and no real position and had a poor jump shot. He was never aggressive and a total bust. Big F grade!

2001
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
2 Jamison Brewer Auburn -lol

2000
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Primoz Brezec Slovenia - never given a chance but he had to go.
2 Jaquay Walls Colorado -lol

1999
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Vonteego Cummings Pittsburgh - lol

1998
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Al Harrington St. Patrick's HS - ok pick but never was a legit starter and turned into locker room prob.

1997
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Austin Croshere Providence - ok pick all things considering. Played great basketball for 2 weeks and made a fortune. He also had no one guarding him the entire two weeks. So me or you couldve done the same.

1996
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Erick Dampier Mississippi State - ok pick. But again. Played his prime elsewhere obv.
2 Mark Pope Kentucky-lol

1995
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Travis Best Georgia Tech - solid pick. Although he played great in big games that many forget, he also blew games many remember.
2 Fred Hoiberg Iowa St. Yep you guessed it. Played his prime elsewhere.

1994
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Eric Piatkowski Nebraska -just some previously mentioned, wasnt a Pacer. Played his prime elsewhere.
2 William Njoku St Mary's (Canada)-lol
2 Damon Bailey Indiana LMFAO

1993
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Scott Haskin Oregon State - WTF??????
2 Thomas Hill Duke I forgot this. Doesnt everyone?
2 Spencer Dunkley Delaware lol

1992
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Malik Sealy St. John's - ok pick but was never a Pacer

1991
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Dale Davis Clemson-Solid Pick. Love Dale, he had a great 90's all things considering.
2 Sean Green Iona -Who?

1990
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
2 Antonio Davis Texas-E-solid pick- Regretfully, he played his prime ELSEWHERE!!! Didnt start here cause of Smits
2 Kenny Williams Elizabeth City State -upside but nothing obv

1989
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 George McCloud Florida State-had 15 mins of fame but not for us obv.

1988
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Rik Smits Marist-Awesome pick
3 Herbert Crook Louisville
3 Michael Anderson Drexel

1987
Rnd Name College/HS/Country
1 Reggie Miller UCLA-Awesome pick

31andonly
07-04-2010, 04:36 AM
2005
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Danny Granger New Mexico - solid pick who fell from a high projection and no had other choice but to take him.


Nonsense! He could have just drafted someone else, like the 16 GMs ahead of him did.

IMO

1 Danny Granger New Mexico - Pacers steal of the century

gopacers1179
07-04-2010, 04:40 AM
Nonsense! He could have just drafted someone else, like the 16 GMs ahead of him did.

IMO

1 Danny Granger New Mexico - Pacers steal of the century I dont disagree with how you put it, but this had little to do with strategy and more along the lines of common sense imo. Just happened to play out like that. This luckbox pick doesnt save us from the other horribad picks in most of the last 20 years.

pacers74
07-04-2010, 05:53 AM
Isn't this thread about a year too late. That was the 2009 draft. Sure we should have drated a PG, but we picked the BPA just like this year. Maybe we should give Tyler a chance to get some playing time before we write him off.
If you want to be a front runner then go find a Thunder board.

PacersPride
07-04-2010, 06:07 AM
this thread is a whole lotta b*tching and moaning all steming from one year where we did not draft a point guard and instead chose hansbrough. then going onto to whine more about the past 20 some years of draft picks.

first of all, the pacers were competing for championships pretty much 95-03.. you knock picks like David harrison who was drafted 30th overall, get a clue. your not going to have great players drop to you at the end of the first round. of course there are exceptions but rare at best.

you also do not include Jeff Foster on your list, nor did you include John Bender, who the pacers traded AD to acquire. considering the pacers were competing for years criticizing draft picks is nonsense.

also.. if your truly a loyal pacer fan you should appreciate the fact that this team went to the eastern conference finals 5-6 times in the span of 8-10 seasons which is really unheard of. and if not for the malice in the palace we might still be contending and continuing our playoff streak.

if you want to jump ship, bon voyage. open your eyes first before typing these type of things.. pacers were dealt a serious blow by the brawl incident.. then had to reshuffle the entire deck to reshape the image of the team.

there are several things i could go on and rant and rave about here with your post. but most of all i dont think your considering the bigger picture. how good this team was from 91-03, and all the consecutive playoff appearances. and how much the brawl destroyed this team, and with it we had to rebuild. true the rebuild has taken awhile, more due to the fact we had walsh/bird running the ship and it was not meant to be that way. we were setup through the 2000's, with JO, Artest, Jack, Tins, Foster, and a team that was competing for championships. Bird/Walsh were putting it on cruise control, but then the brawl and changes had to be made. significant changes and it was time for the team to be either bird or walsh's.

last thing is.. you bash our drafting.. well there has only been two gm's for this team in the last 20+ seasons.. walsh and bird.

are you going to criticize walsh for the team he constructed, not only through the drafts, but via trades as well. like i said we had 10+ seasons of going to the playoffs and were always competing in the ECF.

the Bird/Walsh era together was bad, but that had more to do with the brawl than anything, and 3 seasons of perhaps bad moves do not discount 13 years of success.

now bird is in charge, and from his drafts alone i think he has done well... not great but well. Rush is not a bad player and like the choice of Hibbert, obviously the verdict is out on Hansbrough (the reason for this thread) but he should be fine.. and the George pick most pacers fan like.

you say Granger was an obvious pick.. not so fast.. Gerald Green was suppose to be the next Tracy McGrady, and Bird chose Granger.. so dont take that draft selection so lightly.. Green was also suppose to go in the lottery, possibly a top 5 pick.

i think your missing the bigger picture here, and this thread really has very little merit in my opinion, and you top it off by saying your gonna start rooting for another team. i for one have never been a fairweather fan and anyone who lacks loyalty to their team because they have down years isnt a true fan so why were discussing this thread from someone who wants to put the Pacers on the "shelf" and root for another team seems pointless from the start.

thats my two cents.. enjoy rooting on the bulls and when the Pacers become relevant again maybe you can find a seat on the bandwagon then. the true fans bleed blue & gold through the good times and the bad.

move your reggie miller jersey to the back of the closet.. maybe you can find a discount on some ron artest laker jersey's. you state you have been paying attn for the last 20 years.. seems kinda obvious to me that you needed a history lesson.

Kstat
07-04-2010, 06:12 AM
another post where someone ignores my multi paragraph argument over Pacers draft history and goes onto mention the only thing I joked about in the post. Solid posters here. Says alot about this forum so far

Actually the same thing stuck out to me as well. I'm not sure many posters here thought your "joke" was funny, either.

Oh, and you really shouldn't come in here telling people how to conduct their responses to your rants. You've been here what, 10 minutes?

Every franchise in the NBA has had its ups and downs on draft night. Indiana isn't any different than most other clubs. A little perspective never hurts.

Unclebuck
07-04-2010, 07:28 AM
I just think your perspective is skewed. I shouldnn't try and theorize why it is skewed, but I think maybe you are not comparing the Pacers to other teams individually, but you are comparing the Pacers to the NBA as a whole in a vacuum. I think you are looking at the players the pacers drafted vs the players they passed on. What u need to do to determine if the pacers are indeed one of the 5 worst drafting teams in the pst 20 years is compare it to what other teams passed on. Seems you are only looking at the pacers and my point is if you do the same exact thing with the other 29 teams, you will find that the pacers are at worst an average drafting team

Oh, and let me add, trades on draft nights does mean we drafted the player, so yes we drafted Foster.

D-BONE
07-04-2010, 08:22 AM
Even though I like TH, I can agree with the OP in that I think we really should have gone PG in last year's draft. Hopefully, TH ends up being good enough that in the future it it makes me find that decision much less misguided. Don't think we've been a consistently bad drafting team though, especially given our draft position trend in recent history.

Putnam
07-04-2010, 08:23 AM
If you take an honest look, you'll have to see this team cannot evaluate talent whatsoever.


Tyler Hansbrough exhibited some talent during his college career. He was a solid choice.

James White was a collossal, compound mistake. He's about the only really dumb action the Pacers have made. The rest (Harrison, Williams, Brewer, etc.) were decent choices that disappointingly did not work out.

Remember that each year 60 new players are picked. Just over half of them make the roster their first year, and fewer than half survive in the league past their rookie contract. Draft washouts are more the rule than the exception.

pianoman
07-04-2010, 08:34 AM
Please evaluate our draft picks and ignore my comments if you like. If you take an honest look, you'll have to see this team cannot evaluate talent whatsoever. You'd think someone calling the shots up top would see and correct this flaw in our draft picks. To the Pacers credit its not like theyve had many lottery picks but damn most of all our draft picks last 20 years went somewhere else in their prime. Its just not logical and is a glaring flaw and cannot be ignored any longer. We didnt draft Foster either.


2010- Paul George- has upside and had to be taken all things considering.
Lance- whatever. I have no faith. Same with Magnum P.I

2009
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Tyler Hansbrough North Carolina - jury is out for sure but we passed on so many promising pg's that we had to take one considering the next years draft had PF's galore. Idiotic and should cost someone their job
2 A.J. Price Connecticut- jeezus, this guy mightve risked his career in a charity game. Whatever. Idiot.

2008
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Brandon Rush- I havent given up on Rush. I havent gave up on being happy trading in the right deal tho.
1 Roy Hibbert-solid pick. Love getting him for JO.

2006
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Shawne Williams University of Memphis- die Bird over this one.
2 Alexander Johnson Florida State University - lol

2005
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Danny Granger New Mexico - solid pick who fell from a high projection and the Pacers had no other choice but to take him.
2 Erazem Lorbek Slovenia - who knows wtf

2004
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 David Harrison Colorado -who interviewed this clown? Who evaluated him? He needs to be fired immediately!
2 Rashad Wright Georgia- lol who?

2003
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
2 James Jones Miami Fla - blah, lol, whatever

2002
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Fred Jones Oregon omg this was HORRIBLE!! This guy wasnt needed whatsoever and no real position and had a poor jump shot. He was never aggressive and a total bust. Big F grade!

2001
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
2 Jamison Brewer Auburn -lol

2000
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Primoz Brezec Slovenia - never given a chance but he had to go.
2 Jaquay Walls Colorado -lol

1999
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Vonteego Cummings Pittsburgh - lol

1998
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Al Harrington St. Patrick's HS - ok pick but never was a legit starter and turned into locker room prob.

1997
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Austin Croshere Providence - ok pick all things considering. Played great basketball for 2 weeks and made a fortune. He also had no one guarding him the entire two weeks. So me or you couldve done the same.

1996
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Erick Dampier Mississippi State - ok pick. But again. Played his prime elsewhere obv.
2 Mark Pope Kentucky-lol

1995
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Travis Best Georgia Tech - solid pick. Although he played great in big games that many forget, he also blew games many remember.
2 Fred Hoiberg Iowa St. Yep you guessed it. Played his prime elsewhere.

1994
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Eric Piatkowski Nebraska -just some previously mentioned, wasnt a Pacer. Played his prime elsewhere.
2 William Njoku St Mary's (Canada)-lol
2 Damon Bailey Indiana LMFAO

1993
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Scott Haskin Oregon State - WTF??????
2 Thomas Hill Duke I forgot this. Doesnt everyone?
2 Spencer Dunkley Delaware lol

1992
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Malik Sealy St. John's - ok pick but was never a Pacer

1991
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Dale Davis Clemson-Solid Pick. Love Dale, he had a great 90's all things considering.
2 Sean Green Iona -Who?

1990
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
2 Antonio Davis Texas-E-solid pick- Regretfully, he played his prime ELSEWHERE!!! Didnt start here cause of Smits
2 Kenny Williams Elizabeth City State -upside but nothing obv

1989
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 George McCloud Florida State-had 15 mins of fame but not for us obv.

1988
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Rik Smits Marist-Awesome pick
3 Herbert Crook Louisville
3 Michael Anderson Drexel

1987
Rnd Name College/HS/Country
1 Reggie Miller UCLA-Awesome pick




In response to your Pacers draft pick evaluation:

LOL WTF LMFAO WHATEVER obv...

Now, let me clear up a few things:

Jeff Foster was drafted by another team, but we traded for his rights. If you say that we didn't draft him, then you must agree that we didn't draft Roy Hibbert either.

Keep in mind, you don't know what you're going to get in a player. You may get an all-star, or a total bust. Remember Kwame Brown? First round draft pick, that ended up being one of the worse picks in the history of the draft. He went first though, because he had the potential to be an excellent professional.

Fred Jones was a decent pick. He could light it up on any given night, fill up the highlight reel, AND he won the dunk contest. He's similar to Luther Head: he can come in and start, or come off the bench and still be productive.

Al Harrington was a legit starter. He can still put up 30 on any given night. His attitude is a negative as you pointed out, but as a basketball player he was a legitimate starter.

Shawne Williams had as much potential as Paul George, yet couldn't fulfill his potential because of his work ethic, and off the court troubles. Bird had been scouting him for a couple of years, and rightfully so. He could've turned out great.

I'm surprised you didn't add anything about Wayman Tisdale, but I could probably guess what it would say:

Wayman Tisdale- lol awful pick spent his prime on the bass. WTF


I don't mean to be bashing here, and I do want to welcome you to the forum! Give it one more year, and you'll be able to see what LB's plan was all along. He's either going to be a pure genius, or his legacy will be slightly damaged due to it.

mildlysane
07-04-2010, 08:37 AM
OP would've ended up in an institution if he was a fan of the Pacers in the 80's. Patience, my man, patience. You don't know that ANY of the point guards we could have taken will be better than THans in 3 0r 4 years. You come across as a girlfriend who wants to break up after every argument.

Kegboy
07-04-2010, 08:54 AM
I don't see a problem with somebody putting their fandom (fandosity, fandituity?) on hold. Not like TPTB give a flying **** about next year, why should we?

InYaFace
07-04-2010, 09:12 AM
2 A.J. Price Connecticut- jeezus, this guy mightve risked his career in a charity game. Whatever. Idiot.

I think responding to your comments makes no sense...but when you are really a loyal fan, you wouldn't write such words in relation to a young player of the Pacers!

There are people who fight, compete and give their very best when they play (I guess it shows that they love their sport/job) and there are people who sit at home, trying to defend themselves by bashing those people!

Slick Pinkham
07-04-2010, 09:13 AM
All I can say is don't let the door hit you on the way out. Seriously, you can whine all you want about a draft pick, but you have to take it into account where in the draft order the pick was made and who else was there to be taken.

pizza guy
07-04-2010, 09:28 AM
Yeah, coming down on a team that, until the last few years, has primarily drafted in the late 20s for not picking super stars in the draft is a little off base. And by "a little off base," I mean wrong. Did you want them to draft Wall, Durant, CP3, or Dwight Howard with the 17th pick? C'mon, it's not like they were ever in position to get a serious star, barring some unforeseen luck (which they actually got in drafting Granger). It's just skewed.

And coming on this board and introducing yourself as loyal, but saying you're about to jump ship...well, the first couple of responses should've been expected. The Pacers fans on this board have suffered together every season since the brawl, and we know what loyalty to this team means. I understand watching another team just to see good basketball being played, but you never put your fan-ship "on the shelf."

Also, there's a bunch of good posters here, and that's because they've paid their dues, learned the ropes, and stuck it out. I've been here since '04 and I'm still paying my dues, lol. If you wanna come in here and start insulting the board members, well, you are the one standing closest to the door. But if you want to have good discussion and try to get along, welcome to the board, I hope you enjoy your stay.

--pizza

Erik
07-04-2010, 09:43 AM
Solid posters here. Says alot about this forum so far
Yeah, it doesn't get any better either. You should definitely leave here never to return. There is a forum at Indystar that you would enjoy much more.

Doug
07-04-2010, 10:35 AM
I think that last year they thought there were quite a few good, but similar PGs available and that one they liked would slide to the 2nd round.



Of course, that's just guesswork on my part.

I like AJ, and if he recovers fully I think he can be a solid starting PG.

Like everyone*, I think we reached a bit on Tyler, I do think he can turn into a solid player if he recovers. IMO, they see qualities in Tyler that go beyond his on court contributions, qualities that make everyone around him better, make them step up their game a bit. I think they see very valuable intangibles that can really help a team to a championship.


*Excluding many people, but definitely including Seth.

MLB007
07-04-2010, 10:47 AM
draft a PF in Tyler and pass on 3 legit PG's of the future in 2009 when the following years draft would be loaded with PF's? It seems idiotic/moronic that upper management couldnt predict that 2010's draft would be big man heavy and short on PG's. Who's at fault here? Bird? Scouts? the GM?

I understand that we're probably in the bottom 5 of the worst drafting teams in all of the NBA the last 30 years but this is just ridiculous. How cant the Pacers owners not see that we suck at drafting and find a real talent evaluator? Outside of Reggie, Smits, D.Davis, this organization is a complete embarrassment on draft night.

Since we didnt choose Lawson, Holliday, or Collison we're now left with obvious desperation to solve our PG position and every team in the league knows it and wont offer anyone without robbing us in the deal.

Ive been a loyal Pacers fan since 1989 and Im considering putting my love for the Pacers on the shelf for a bit and root for the OKC Thunder, who have a coach, management, and players who I admire and enjoy watching play. This organization has been spewing/wasting our drafts and Im sick of it. We all know the Pacers will never sign a quality free agent because, theyve NEVER had or will so the draft needs to be our #1 strong suit. You'd figure this would be obvious but nobody has corrected it since Ive paid attention the last 20 years.

Chris Mullin ring a bell? If you'd really paid attention the last 20 years you'd remember some significant free agent signings. ;)

xBulletproof
07-04-2010, 10:48 AM
Im not critical of the Tyler pick specifically, but when your glaring weakness is the PG position and you pass on them when the following years draft is loaded with big guys whos talent rivals Tylers, it doesnt compute to anyone with half a brain.

Apparently everyone else lacked your amazing crystal ball that allowed you to know exactly what the next draft class will bring. Or that Collison or anyone else who didn't appear worth picking that high, would be good players.

You either need to be a GM yourself, because you'd be the greatest on the planet at it. Or go work for Miss Cleo, because you're good at pretending you'll know what will happen in the future, when it's already become the past. Maybe they can hone your skills into being able to pretend you'll know what will happen, before it happens instead of after it's over.

Get serious, please. Or don't, I could just put you on ignore just as easy.

MLB007
07-04-2010, 10:52 AM
"Outside of Reggie, Smits, D.Davis, this organization is a complete embarrassment on draft night."

Um, wouldn't Danny Granger qualify as not an embarrassment?

Also while I don't want to let them off the hook totally you do have to understand that for most of the 90's and the first 6 seasons of this decade the Pacers made the playoffs so therefor our draft position has not been what you would call ideal. (actually it is in fact ideal because you don't want to be in the lottery but for the sake of this conversation let's assume it's bad).

This draft pick was the first top 10 draft pick (of our own) since the late 80's.

So while you can argue that we have hit very few home runs, I would consider Danny an absoute home run at 17 BTW, we have had several base hits and very few strike outs.

Al Harrington has had a long NBA career so while he didn't work out for us as well as we hoped he was a solid pick.

Travis Best, who I didn't really like all that well, had a long NBA career and was part of our success as we went to the finals.

Same can be said of Austin Croshere.

Heck we have even had a couple of second round picks have long and decent careers and one of them went on to be an all-star (Antonio Davis).

Yes, last year right now it looks like they missed the boat on that draft.

I like Tyler and I think if he can get healthy he will be a good player. But given the opprotunity to have a do over sure almost everyone would pick a point guard.

Now with a caveat.

If A.J. Price did not blow out his knee this summer I think that draft looks a lot better as I think he really played more like a late first round pick and not a second round pick.

However with his knee out, who knows how he will be.

He broke his kneecap right? If so, that will heal cleanly and is MUCH better than having torn an ACL or other ligament damage that has to be fixed and then go through rehad. And even then may or may not be as good as it was.
Other than healing time factor, he should be as good as new.

idioteque
07-04-2010, 10:54 AM
It seems idiotic/moronic that upper management couldnt predict that 2010's draft would be big man heavy and short on PG's. Who's at fault here? Bird? Scouts? the GM?



Maybe we should just let you do the drafting, then. You seem competent to do so.

I won't go into drafting blow-by-blow with you because you're too lazy even to put the correct players we actually ending up acquiring through the draft by trading and moving picks so there is no point for me to do so.

But I'll make on note regarding your perception about second round picks, because it is totally skewed. There are only between 360-450 active players in the NBA at any point depending on whether or not a team decides to keep a number between 12 and 15 players. There are 60 players drafted each year. If every player were to make a team, the entire NBA would be turning over completely every 6-7 years, which we all know does not happen. Since you think James Jones sucks so bad, look at the 2003 draft and see who was drafted after him. Other than Kyle Korver, no one listed ever even played significant minutes in the NBA much less a multi-year career as a role player like Jones did.

And I picked out the point above because it absolutely is unrealistic to expect TPTB to predict the draft board a year before the draft. So many players on the boards of NBADraft.net and Draft Express slipped completely off the board in the period of time between the conclusion of the 2009 draft and the beginning of the 2010 draft. That is next to impossible to predict.

MLB007
07-04-2010, 10:54 AM
I dont disagree with how you put it, but this had little to do with strategy and more along the lines of common sense imo. Just happened to play out like that. This luckbox pick doesnt save us from the other horribad picks in most of the last 20 years.

So when you agree with the pick it's "common sense", but when you don't then they're "horribad picks". ahhhh
Now I get it. :rolleyes:

MLB007
07-04-2010, 11:03 AM
I think that last year they thought there were quite a few good, but similar PGs available and that one they liked would slide to the 2nd round.



Of course, that's just guesswork on my part.

I like AJ, and if he recovers fully I think he can be a solid starting PG.

Like everyone*, I think we reached a bit on Tyler, I do think he can turn into a solid player if he recovers. IMO, they see qualities in Tyler that go beyond his on court contributions, qualities that make everyone around him better, make them step up their game a bit. I think they see very valuable intangibles that can really help a team to a championship.


*Excluding many people, but definitely including Seth.

Wow, the big picture. Some people really DO see the forest for the trees......:happydanc

PacerGuy
07-04-2010, 11:11 AM
I said "for a bit". Funny how you ignore my strong argument to point that one statement out. Get real dude and respond with something Pacer related. You lose

Dude, if I told my wife I was putting my loyalty to her "on the shelf for a bit", I would be shown the door & not be welcomed back! Loyalty = Commitment. Now can you "expand your interest", sure, but you can not turn on & off loyalty. That was the point being made.

Bball
07-04-2010, 11:12 AM
All this complaining about drafts and talent evaluations and no mention of Bender....

KennerLeaguer
07-04-2010, 11:40 AM
draft a PF in Tyler and pass on 3 legit PG's of the future in 2009 when the following years draft would be loaded with PF's? It seems idiotic/moronic that upper management couldnt predict that 2010's draft would be big man heavy and short on PG's. Who's at fault here? Bird? Scouts? the GM?

I understand that we're probably in the bottom 5 of the worst drafting teams in all of the NBA the last 30 years but this is just ridiculous. How cant the Pacers owners not see that we suck at drafting and find a real talent evaluator? Outside of Reggie, Smits, D.Davis, this organization is a complete embarrassment on draft night.

Since we didnt choose Lawson, Holliday, or Collison we're now left with obvious desperation to solve our PG position and every team in the league knows it and wont offer anyone without robbing us in the deal.

Ive been a loyal Pacers fan since 1989 and Im considering putting my love for the Pacers on the shelf for a bit and root for the OKC Thunder, who have a coach, management, and players who I admire and enjoy watching play. This organization has been spewing/wasting our drafts and Im sick of it. We all know the Pacers will never sign a quality free agent because, theyve NEVER had or will so the draft needs to be our #1 strong suit. You'd figure this would be obvious but nobody has corrected it since Ive paid attention the last 20 years.

You can't always predict who will be in the draft the following year. Also to be fair the jury is still out on Holliday, a dude who didn't even play pg during his one disappointing year at UCLA. By the way wasn't Holliday chosen long before the Pacers drafted? And the buzz had fallen for senior Collinson just like the buzz had fallen for Hibbert when he was a senior. So the only player you can really debate whether the Pacerss should have taken at that spot was Lawson and of course there were still concerns regarding his height and his ability to make shots.

BigRik
07-04-2010, 11:51 AM
The thing about the Hansbrough pick that is frustrating is that we literally have no idea what we have yet. It is way to soon to call a bust since he basically hasn't played.

Hicks
07-04-2010, 11:52 AM
So when you agree with the pick it's "common sense", but when you don't then they're "horribad picks". ahhhh
Now I get it. :rolleyes:

Welcome to the Internet!

BlueNGold
07-04-2010, 11:53 AM
IMO, the Pacers are roughly average at drafting talent, primarily because they have a tendency to draft players with a history of poor character...even in this draft. But-for poor character, I think they pick above average in terms of talent.

2004: Harrison was probably a good pick but-for character issues.

2005: Granger at #17 makes up for a lot of mistakes. Did you know Joey Graham, Antoine Wright, Rashad McCants, Sean May and Yaroslav Korolev were the 5 players selected right before Granger? Alexander? Just one of the 90% of second round flops. Good luck beating the odds.

2006: Williams was probably a good pick but-for character issues. James White was simply a stupid pick, albeit a late rounder.

2008: Rush was an average pick. Hibbert was above average. Both safe picks. Price is probably an above average second round pick...and at least average.

2009: Tyler was an average pick at the time. I don't think what happened to him was foreseeable. IMO, he is now an unknown.

2010: Who knows? Lance appears to be another "ignore character and go for talent" pick. Personally, I think it was a foolish pick...the worst move since the 2006 draft. George is an unknown IMO but I am quite pleased with that pick.

Anyway, if we want to cherry pick, how about this? I wonder what some people would think if the Pacers had selected Kwame Brown...or selected Marvin Williams instead of Chris Paul or Deron Williams? What if they picked Darko instead of Mello, DWade and Bosh?

BlueNGold
07-04-2010, 11:56 AM
All this complaining about drafts and talent evaluations and no mention of Bender....

Very good point. I think we need to separate the Walsh from the Bird era though (somehow). If 2008 was Bird's first year, I think he's done a good job so far.

odeez
07-04-2010, 11:58 AM
Hindsight is 20/20, every team makes mistakes in the draft, it happens every year, yes some are larger than others, but you can't predict these things exactly unless you have a crystal ball, especially when you are always picking in the teens of every draft. I think overall we have done pretty well with our draft selections.

Also, I think the folks who post on her are great. I/we wouldn't have stuck around so long if this wasn't such a great place for Pacers fans to post, c'mon!!!

mildlysane
07-04-2010, 12:02 PM
Second-round picks are at best a crap shoot; not a talent-tree ready to be picked of its never-ending fruits.

Sookie
07-04-2010, 12:22 PM
He broke his kneecap right? If so, that will heal cleanly and is MUCH better than having torn an ACL or other ligament damage that has to be fixed and then go through rehad. And even then may or may not be as good as it was.
Other than healing time factor, he should be as good as new.

Yea

Sadly, the broken kneecap is most likely a result of the acl reconstruction surgery (they remove a tendon and part of a the kneecap to fix the ACL) So if he hadn't of had the ACL he wouldn't have had this..

Not that it won't heal quickly. It's a bone break, he should be fine as soon as his muscles are ready. He's just unlucky.

Los Angeles
07-04-2010, 12:35 PM
This thread could have done better without the whole "I question your fanhood" thing.

It think it's fair game for anyone to say "I've lost interest."

Many of this forum's very best posters have lost a heck of a lot of interest, myself included.

Peck
07-04-2010, 12:57 PM
I don't know why I am bothering but for some reason I feel compelled so I will go over these one by one with you.





2010- Paul George- has upside and had to be taken all things considering.
Lance- whatever. I have no faith. Same with Magnum P.I

As to George, who knows. That is the thing about drafts, it is the unknown. As to second rounders it seems like they took guys they thought have a chance to come in now and be part of the team. At least they didn't select a European player with no intention of ever bringing him over.

2009
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Tyler Hansbrough North Carolina - jury is out for sure but we passed on so many promising pg's that we had to take one considering the next years draft had PF's galore. Idiotic and should cost someone their job
2 A.J. Price Connecticut- jeezus, this guy mightve risked his career in a charity game. Whatever. Idiot.

Tyler as Doug pointed out brings a lot to the table and when he got to play he did seem to bring everybody's energy up. However it is not wrong to say that why select a power forward when you really really needed a point guard and good ones were on the table.

As to A.J. I would much rather read about A.J. being injured at a charity game as opposed to being run over at a strip club. It's just part of nature really, you play contact sports you have the chance to get injured. If it was a charity game or a pick up game or training at the fieldhouse the potential for injury is there. At least it was doing something related to ball and not riding on a scooter or something.

2008
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Brandon Rush- I havent given up on Rush. I havent gave up on being happy trading in the right deal tho.
1 Roy Hibbert-solid pick. Love getting him for JO.

Are we saying draft night trades are draft picks or not? If so then yes this was another fine draft from our club. Rush is going to have a very long productive career even if he never becomes an aggresive scorer simply because his defens is that good.

Simply put Roy Hibbert has the potential to be a starter in this league for the next 10 years. A skilled big man who does nothing but want to improve?

We haven't even gotten to Granger yet & I'm already happy with the clubs picks.
2006
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Shawne Williams University of Memphis- die Bird over this one.
2 Alexander Johnson Florida State University - lol

Yep Williams was a mistake. However it was a mistake based on character not skill. Shawne had the talent to play in the NBA, although he was never going to be the star some on here thought he would be. Oddly enough we had posters thinking he was better than Danny and one poster (no names mentioned) who is one of the more highly thought of posters who believed this as well.

I don't sweat 2nd round draft picks, so Johnson didn't have a big career & I'm not suprised.

2005
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Danny Granger New Mexico - solid pick who fell from a high projection and the Pacers had no other choice but to take him.
2 Erazem Lorbek Slovenia - who knows wtf

And the Pacers could have done just like the 16 teams in front of them did and pass him right on by. It was not a no other choice deal because in fact you cold argue that they were solidly stacked at the wings with Artest, J. Jones & Jackson.

Again I don't sweat 2nd rounders however I don't like it when we take players we have no intention of ever using.

2004
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 David Harrison Colorado -who interviewed this clown? Who evaluated him? He needs to be fired immediately!
2 Rashad Wright Georgia- lol who?

A legitimate big man with some skill as the last pick in the first round? Sure I'll take a flyer on that every time. Remember we were coming off of a 61 win season so there were not a lot of spots on the floor that needed covering. Now the truth is that team was filled with prima donna's and idiots or in some cases both so you could argue adding another hot headed idiot would not be smart, but again LAST pick of the first round which prior to all of the expansion would have been like the 4th pick of the second round.

Again I don't sweat 2nd rounders but since you are lol'ing why don't you tell us who they should have selected with that pick.

2003
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
2 James Jones Miami Fla - blah, lol, whatever

With this statement you pretty much have me wondering if you ever actually watched the team play. James Jones was just cut this week from the Miami roster to make way for the mega star signings they want to do. So that means a 2nd round pick from 2003 was still in the league. In fact with the Suns he was a very solid contributer to their winning teams. I still stand by my statement of not sweating 2nd rounders but I would say this was a gem to find so late in the draft.

2002
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Fred Jones Oregon omg this was HORRIBLE!! This guy wasnt needed whatsoever and no real position and had a poor jump shot. He was never aggressive and a total bust. Big F grade!

Ok, fine you didn't like Fred. Would you rather have had Kareem Rush? BTW, your definition of total bust and mine are obviously not the same. I think if you play in the NBA for at least the duration of your rookie contract you have qualified as not being a bust. Now you may not live up to your potential but your not a bust. A bust to me doesn't make the team or is cut his second season. But back on point, going back to that draft who did the Pacers miss out on that made this pick so bad?

2001
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
2 Jamison Brewer Auburn -lol

2nd rounder again so I'm not sweating it, however since you counted Roy & Brandon you have give Jamaal Tinsley a vote here. Love him or hate him he had a long NBA career (you can do that when you don't play half of your games but I digress) and was a skilled player.

2000
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Primoz Brezec Slovenia - never given a chance but he had to go.
2 Jaquay Walls Colorado -lol

I don't understand your statement here at all? What do you mean he had to go?

As to Walls, again 2nd rounder but again since you have lol'ed please state who they missed the boat on that they should have drafted.

1999
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Vonteego Cummings Pittsburgh - lol

LOL all you want but they turned Cummings into Jeff Foster and you can not argue that this was a brilliant move.

Since you didn't bring up Bender I won't either.

1998
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Al Harrington St. Patrick's HS - ok pick but never was a legit starter and turned into locker room prob.

Talented high school player taken mid way in the first round to a team that was deep at every position in talent who is still in the NBA today. I'd say homerun here.

1997
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Austin Croshere Providence - ok pick all things considering. Played great basketball for 2 weeks and made a fortune. He also had no one guarding him the entire two weeks. So me or you couldve done the same.

Long NBA career, better than some picked ahead of him. This was also a good pick by the club.
1996
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Erick Dampier Mississippi State - ok pick. But again. Played his prime elsewhere obv.
2 Mark Pope Kentucky-lol

Dampier is still in the NBA today although he has never been what he should have been. how can this be anything but a good draft pick. We traded him for a need and for a short time it paid off.

2nd rounder however Pope played for a few seasons in the NBA for both us and other teams so again with my thought that most 2nd rounders don't even make a team I think this was a good pick.

1995
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Travis Best Georgia Tech - solid pick. Although he played great in big games that many forget, he also blew games many remember.
2 Fred Hoiberg Iowa St. Yep you guessed it. Played his prime elsewhere.

I've already covered Travis before and as to the Mayor again 2nd round pick so you have to give the team credit for selecting him. Where they play thier prime at vs. being selected in the draft are not the same thing.

1994
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Eric Piatkowski Nebraska -just some previously mentioned, wasnt a Pacer. Played his prime elsewhere.
2 William Njoku St Mary's (Canada)-lol
2 Damon Bailey Indiana LMFAO

But Piatkowski became Mark Jackson so I think there is not a person alive who wouldn't say this was a brilliant move. We selected him for the Clippers btw just like the Raptors selected Hibbert for us.

2nd rounders are no big deal but I was at that draft in 94 at the dome and I can tell you had the Pacers passed on Bailey the second time around in the second round they would have had a riot on their hands.

1993
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Scott Haskin Oregon State - WTF??????
2 Thomas Hill Duke I forgot this. Doesnt everyone?
2 Spencer Dunkley Delaware lol

Ok, this is the one where I am going to say that you probably have a point. Haskin was a very very odd selection and frankly was neither a need or the best player available. I don't know what they were thinking there.

I don't sweat 2nd rounders.

1992
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Malik Sealy St. John's - ok pick but was never a Pacer

Now here is where I am really going to question if you used to watch the club? Was never a Pacer, what the hell????? He most certainly was.

1991
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Dale Davis Clemson-Solid Pick. Love Dale, he had a great 90's all things considering.
2 Sean Green Iona -Who?

And on the 8th Day God created Dale Davis and it was good.:D

I don't swea....well you know what I think of second rounders.

1990
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
2 Antonio Davis Texas-E-solid pick- Regretfully, he played his prime ELSEWHERE!!! Didnt start here cause of Smits
2 Kenny Williams Elizabeth City State -upside but nothing obv

Two second rounders that played in the NBA one of which became an all-star. Again Homerun!!!!

1989
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 George McCloud Florida State-had 15 mins of fame but not for us obv.

Donnie was really reaching here, I remeber like yesterday him comparing George to Magic Johnson although he never played p.g. in college. He was in the NBA for several years so hard to say bust but this wasn't the best pick he could have taken either.

1988
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Rik Smits Marist-Awesome pick
3 Herbert Crook Louisville
3 Michael Anderson Drexel

Picking 2nd in the draft usually gives you a chance to get a good player.

1987
Rnd Name College/HS/Country
1 Reggie Miller UCLA-Awesome pick

Awesome yes, but let's not forget other teams passed on him and we could have as well.

So overall I vastly disagree with your thoughts about us being a poor drafting team.

PacersPride
07-04-2010, 04:34 PM
Chris Mullin ring a bell? If you'd really paid attention the last 20 years you'd remember some significant free agent signings. ;)

i gotta chime in on this one.. its a little off topic here, but mullin was acquired by trading erik dampier, right when bird had taken over as coach. this is the only move i never agreed with when Bird was coaching this team.

Mullin was on the downswing of his career and i know Bird wanted a lethal shooter to compliment Miller, but giving up Dampier would have given us a true center to contend with Shaq in the 2000 nba finals.

i hated seeing AD go as well, but for Bender, if he had stayed healthy would have been worth the investment.

obviously Bird could not see into the crystal ball, but having AD or Dampier in addition to DD, big smooth, and Smits to gaurd Shaq in those 2000 finals might have been the difference.

although, Dampier was Shaq's :censored: as he mentioned in an interview one time.

still, Mullin was really not needed, i think his friendship with Mullin led to a bad decision.

apologize for going off-topic here, just wanted to add that into the conversation. not having AD or Dampier really hurt us in the finals against the Lakers.

gopacers1179
07-04-2010, 04:45 PM
Chris Mullin ring a bell? If you'd really paid attention the last 20 years you'd remember some significant free agent signings. ;) This is so classic. Mullin was TRADED for Dampier and Duane Ferrell genius. Maybe if you paid attention to Pacers basketball or Google for that matter, you'd know what I meant. And yes Im correct when stating that this franchise has and never will sign a major free agent. Its just not happening.

Yes alot of you have made some great points and alot have been so off base its quite hilarious.

I know I sounded very obtuse in my arguments but that doesnt make me wrong. Fred Jones, David Harrison, Shawne Williams, James Jones, James White, they were tweeners and character flawed humans. They have no real place in the pros. Never had a chance.

I dont mind the Tyler pick like Ive stated before, but how doesnt someone whos in charge notice that next year had lots of potential bigs with no point guards. Thats someones job!!!! You gotta see that coming.

Lets move onto Rush, who we gave up alot to land this guy and he plays as if he doesnt wanna be here. But since the Pacers are so emo these days, they wont move him because it lets everyone know that they were WRONG by picking him. This management has goofed so much lately it wont make a move because they fear failure.

PacersPride
07-04-2010, 04:57 PM
This is so classic. Mullin was TRADED for Dampier and Duane Ferrell genius. Maybe if you paid attention to Pacers basketball or Google for that matter, you'd know what I meant. And yes Im correct when stating that this franchise has and never will sign a major free agent. Its just not happening.

Yes alot of you have made some great points and alot have been so off base its quite hilarious.

I know I sounded very obtuse in my arguments but that doesnt make me wrong. Fred Jones, David Harrison, Shawne Williams, James Jones, James White, they were tweeners and character flawed humans. They have no real place in the pros. Never had a chance.

I dont mind the Tyler pick like Ive stated before, but how doesnt someone whos in charge notice that next year had lots of potential bigs with no point guards. Thats someones job!!!! You gotta see that coming.

Lets move onto Rush, who we gave up alot to land this guy and he plays as if he doesnt wanna be here. But since the Pacers are so emo these days, they wont move him because it lets everyone know that they were WRONG by picking him. This management has goofed so much lately it wont make a move because they fear failure.


http://www.oklahomacitythunderforum.com/

gopacers1179
07-04-2010, 05:02 PM
please move onto the the okc thunder forum.. here i will help you.
http://www.oklahomacitythunderforum.com/ I threw this out there out of frustration and jealousy. Like I mentioned before, if you dont have a real counter argument, then ignore this thread. Sorry I dont wear goggles like you and pretend everything is going well when it isnt.

One of my favorite quotes ever is "You'd rather sleep in *** than let the world see you work a shovel". Thats whats happening to this organization.

NapTonius Monk
07-04-2010, 05:38 PM
i gotta chime in on this one.. its a little off topic here, but mullin was acquired by trading erik dampier, right when bird had taken over as coach. this is the only move i never agreed with when Bird was coaching this team.

Mullin was on the downswing of his career and i know Bird wanted a lethal shooter to compliment Miller, but giving up Dampier would have given us a true center to contend with Shaq in the 2000 nba finals.

i hated seeing AD go as well, but for Bender, if he had stayed healthy would have been worth the investment.

obviously Bird could not see into the crystal ball, but having AD or Dampier in addition to DD, big smooth, and Smits to gaurd Shaq in those 2000 finals might have been the difference.

although, Dampier was Shaq's :censored: as he mentioned in an interview one time.

still, Mullin was really not needed, i think his friendship with Mullin led to a bad decision.

apologize for going off-topic here, just wanted to add that into the conversation. not having AD or Dampier really hurt us in the finals against the Lakers.
I think Mullin's contributions here were invaluable. Dampier has been a solid player over the course of his career, but Mullin brought an element to this team that I don't think should be taken for granted.

Kstat
07-04-2010, 05:43 PM
Chris Mullin right now is still probably a better basketball player than Erik Dampier.

PacersPride
07-04-2010, 05:56 PM
I think Mullin's contributions here were invaluable. Dampier has been a solid player over the course of his career, but Mullin brought an element to this team that I don't think should be taken for granted.

it wasnt taken for granted. but he really did not contribute much during the 2000 season when we went to the finals. the majority of mullins contributions were made the first season. after we acquired Jalen Rose he pretty much took over the small forward spot and mullin was in a very limited role.

mullin probably is still a better ballplayer than dampier.. but what im pointing out is during 2000 having Dampier as another big man to defend Shaq could have really helped us tremendously. i would have rather had AD, but i dont think big smooth was up to task of guarding Shaq, that primarily left us with only one big that could contend with Shaq, that being DD.

in hindsight, not trading AD for Bender might have been a better move, but im not faulting the pacers brass for that trade.. or even the Dampier for mullin deal.

no one could have predicted the future, but having a plethora of big men to gaurd shaq would have been more effective than DD alone. AD, Dampier, DD, Smits, big smooth to bang on Shaq for the entire finals would have paid off in an NBA Championship IMHO.

im not discrediting Mullin, but i remember these deals like yesterday, if you go back and look at mullins stats while he was here, you may see what i mean. the 3 years he was here while Bird was coach, he started the first one, then the second season Rose pretty much took over, and McKey/Mullin split time, but the third year Mullin wasnt really played much at all, and at that point in time i would have rather had Dampier in his third season than Mullin in his final one.

i think the statbook will back me up on this one. again, all im saying is, in hindsight it was the only move i did not like that Bird made, and i kinda thought so from the outset. but i did see the reasoning. who knew Rose was gonna be a stud for those couple of seasons.

check the finals series with the Lakers, Mullin didnt really play much at all. Dampier would have been another big body to gaurd Shaq who just killed us in that series.

** of course.. if not for some BS!!!!! call on DD against Glen Rice in game 6 with less than a minute to go.. there might have been a game 7 and i would have liked our chances. terrible call by the refs to end the game.. almost as bad as the phantom 4 point play foul by AD on LJ.

speakout4
07-04-2010, 06:05 PM
This was a pretty poor move IMO since Mullin was full time only one season and Dampier even though he was a 10th pick certainly could have been traded for someone who would have given us what a 10th pick was worth. This was Donnie IMO and not Larry.

Slick Pinkham
07-04-2010, 06:30 PM
http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/454/dbe/454dbe4b-6a87-4e0d-8c0d-5ff7b6ca9569

PacersPride
07-04-2010, 06:38 PM
http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/454/dbe/454dbe4b-6a87-4e0d-8c0d-5ff7b6ca9569

notice how the troll didnt respond to anything from some of the posts critiquing his draft analysis. the poster below who went throughly each draft selection in response to his criticism he didnt even respond to. i made some points as well on the first page and he never responed to that either, along wiht many others on here.

he complains about having an actual counterpoint to his argument, but when you do have one, he just ignores it.

2minutes twowa
07-04-2010, 06:43 PM
This is so classic. Mullin was TRADED for Dampier and Duane Ferrell genius. Maybe if you paid attention to Pacers basketball or Google for that matter, you'd know what I meant. And yes Im correct when stating that this franchise has and never will sign a major free agent. Its just not happening.

Yes alot of you have made some great points and alot have been so off base its quite hilarious.

I know I sounded very obtuse in my arguments but that doesnt make me wrong. Fred Jones, David Harrison, Shawne Williams, James Jones, James White, they were tweeners and character flawed humans. They have no real place in the pros. Never had a chance.

I dont mind the Tyler pick like Ive stated before, but how doesnt someone whos in charge notice that next year had lots of potential bigs with no point guards. Thats someones job!!!! You gotta see that coming.

Lets move onto Rush, who we gave up alot to land this guy and he plays as if he doesnt wanna be here. But since the Pacers are so emo these days, they wont move him because it lets everyone know that they were WRONG by picking him. This management has goofed so much lately it wont make a move because they fear failure.

Your posts are ridiculous baseless statements with a few good points sprinkled in. When you say Bird should have picked a PG instead of Tyler, probably 50%-75% of this board agrees (me included). But you follow that up with statements like, "Malik Sealy was never a Pacer" and "They wont move him (Rush) because it lets everyone know that they were WRONG by picking him." Really? So that's why they had a deal agreed upon with Charlotte involving Rush until Charlotte backed out. The fact that you lumped Fred Jones and James Jones in with David Harrison, Shawne Williams and James White as "character flawed humans" really says it all.:shakehead

Roaming Gnome
07-04-2010, 06:52 PM
http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/454/dbe/454dbe4b-6a87-4e0d-8c0d-5ff7b6ca9569

My crystal ball says this "troll" isn't long for this world... :crystalba:

dlewyus
07-04-2010, 06:54 PM
I threw this out there out of frustration and jealousy. Like I mentioned before, if you dont have a real counter argument, then ignore this thread. Sorry I dont wear goggles like you and pretend everything is going well when it isnt.

One of my favorite quotes ever is "You'd rather sleep in *** than let the world see you work a shovel". Thats whats happening to this organization.

I don't agree with much else you say, but that is a good quote. I'm gonna try to remember that one. Your tone and posting style sounds alot like someone who used to post on here before he was banned. :censored: Good luck.

MLB007
07-04-2010, 06:58 PM
Yea

Sadly, the broken kneecap is most likely a result of the acl reconstruction surgery (they remove a tendon and part of a the kneecap to fix the ACL) So if he hadn't of had the ACL he wouldn't have had this..

Not that it won't heal quickly. It's a bone break, he should be fine as soon as his muscles are ready. He's just unlucky.


Really? Didn't know they did that. Double whammy on the ACL then. :box:

MLB007
07-04-2010, 07:02 PM
i gotta chime in on this one.. its a little off topic here, but mullin was acquired by trading erik dampier, right when bird had taken over as coach. this is the only move i never agreed with when Bird was coaching this team.

Mullin was on the downswing of his career and i know Bird wanted a lethal shooter to compliment Miller, but giving up Dampier would have given us a true center to contend with Shaq in the 2000 nba finals.

i hated seeing AD go as well, but for Bender, if he had stayed healthy would have been worth the investment.

obviously Bird could not see into the crystal ball, but having AD or Dampier in addition to DD, big smooth, and Smits to gaurd Shaq in those 2000 finals might have been the difference.

although, Dampier was Shaq's :censored: as he mentioned in an interview one time.

still, Mullin was really not needed, i think his friendship with Mullin led to a bad decision.

apologize for going off-topic here, just wanted to add that into the conversation. not having AD or Dampier really hurt us in the finals against the Lakers.

That's right. My bad on thinking he was FA. Don't disagree either, he wasn't the same player with us that he was most of his career.

Hicks
07-04-2010, 07:08 PM
A reminder that despite what someone else is saying, that's not a license to cuss him out or call him names.

Reeder
07-04-2010, 07:30 PM
My crystal ball says this "troll" isn't long for this world... :crystalba:


Are you suggesting that I may not have to put this guy on the ignore list?

Marlin
07-04-2010, 07:36 PM
I think responding to your comments makes no sense...but when you are really a loyal fan, you wouldn't write such words in relation to a young player of the Pacers!

There are people who fight, compete and give their very best when they play (I guess it shows that they love their sport/job) and there are people who sit at home, trying to defend themselves by bashing those people!

Agreed. And how's Price an idiot, as if it's his fault he broke his kneecap? He could easily have been tripped, which can happen to anyone when walking or even training...would we rather have Price not training, because if he does he may be tripped and may be injured? Are you really *****ing about playing in a freakin' charity game, gopacers?!


Fred Jones, David Harrison, Shawne Williams, James Jones, James White, they were tweeners and character flawed humans.
What?!
And btw, James Jones is a gem of a second rounder. He's made a living up to this season with very good shooting and decent defense, this is the second time you questioned him...have you ever seen him play? And, he was one of the most humble and timid players on the roster in the last decade, btw.

btowncolt
07-04-2010, 07:41 PM
This thread tickles me.

Second line.

Putnam
07-04-2010, 07:45 PM
And yes Im correct when stating that this franchise has and never will sign a major free agent.


Ah, no you're not correct.

The Pacers signed a free agent named Jermaine O'neal to a max contract in 2003.

It doesn't matter that he was on the Pacers roster the season before. He was a free agent and he coulda gone anywhere. The Pacers offered him a six- or seven-year contract worth over $100 million and he eschewed all other offers.

The Pacers did sign a major free agent.




.

focused444
07-04-2010, 08:00 PM
Ah, no you're not correct.

The Pacers signed a free agent named Jermaine O'neal to a max contract in 2003.

It doesn't matter that he was on the Pacers roster the season before. He was a free agent and he coulda gone anywhere. The Pacers offered him a six- or seven-year contract worth over $100 million and he eschewed all other offers.

The Pacers did sign a major free agent.




.

Nice use of eschewed...

Doug
07-04-2010, 08:54 PM
Bryon Scott was a free agent, right?

PacersPride
07-04-2010, 09:30 PM
A reminder that despite what someone else is saying, that's not a license to cuss him out or call him names.

my bad Hicks, gotta little peeved off and went overboard :goodevil:. have a tendency to do that from time to time, i will tone it down no matter the content of the dialogue.

PD is the best place to talk Pacers Basketball by far, this place kicks butt!!! :boombaby:

:sorry:

Slick Pinkham
07-04-2010, 10:15 PM
Since this seems to have run its course, hopefully...


:inbeforethelock:

PacerDude
07-04-2010, 10:38 PM
Fred Jones, David Harrison, Shawne Williams, James Jones, James White, they were tweeners and character flawed humans.Harrison was a 'tweener ?? 'tween a center and what ??

And just how were Fred Jones & James Jones 'flawed humans' ??

Think then post. Neat concept. Try it.

gopacers1179
07-04-2010, 11:20 PM
Your posts are ridiculous baseless statements with a few good points sprinkled in. When you say Bird should have picked a PG instead of Tyler, probably 50%-75% of this board agrees (me included). But you follow that up with statements like, "Malik Sealy was never a Pacer" and "They wont move him (Rush) because it lets everyone know that they were WRONG by picking him." Really? So that's why they had a deal agreed upon with Charlotte involving Rush until Charlotte backed out. The fact that you lumped Fred Jones and James Jones in with David Harrison, Shawne Williams and James White as "character flawed humans" really says it all.:shakehead Yes Malik Sealy was hardly a Pacer. He played here 2 years out of an 8 year career, started 5 games and avg around 12 mins a game. Yes I would like to reitterate (sp?) Sealy was a waste of a 1st round pick.

How do you know that a deal for Rush was made? Do you work for the Pacers? Did someone with the knowledge call you and discuss this? I thinks not. Stick to the facts here, dont speculate.

When I mentioned the tweeners and whackjob list, I meant the players were one or the other, not both. My grammatical error sorry. Of course both Jones boys are good guys but theyre tweeners and contributed very little to this organization or any other. The Fred Jones pick was soooo wrong that it hurts. Horrible pick and everyone should know this. He was 6'1 with no jumper. Yes he was athletic but didnt have an aggressive bone in his body. I watched all his games bro. Waste of a mid 1st rounder. Pacers sold us on him because of his 4 year college career. They were wrong

gopacers1179
07-04-2010, 11:25 PM
Bryon Scott was a free agent, right? he signed here at the end of his career to help a team in the hunt. So what. He was nice but def not a game changer at 32 years of age. He did hit that awesome shot in the playoffs tho. Love Scott.

gopacers1179
07-04-2010, 11:28 PM
Ah, no you're not correct.

The Pacers signed a free agent named Jermaine O'neal to a max contract in 2003.

It doesn't matter that he was on the Pacers roster the season before. He was a free agent and he coulda gone anywhere. The Pacers offered him a six- or seven-year contract worth over $100 million and he eschewed all other offers.

The Pacers did sign a major free agent.




.JO was all about the money, never winning, just like youll see from Joe Johnson when he stays with ATL. JO couldve went to the Spurs, whom he turned down, to go win rings butnahhhhh, he wanted the money. Dont even begin to lump JO in this free agent talk. Its a fail

gopacers1179
07-04-2010, 11:33 PM
I respect Pecks counter argument in his evaluation of our draft picks. But it def wasnt enough to convince me that this team has no sense of what to do on draft night. They trade pretty well tho, especially when we were contenders. Since those days tho, things have sucked around here. No balls.

I respect some of PacersPride posts but hes getting to emo and isnt really worth my time to argue.

Sorry I called Price an idiot, but if Im a pro athlete whos in the hunt of being a starter on an NBA roster then Im not putting myself in harms way in a charity game. Not like it was the summer league. Even the thought of me arguing over Price lets me know, the Pacers are in deep doo doo.

I def respect others counter points as a whole. Keep em coming please. No name calling tho. Shame shame............


No one has yet to convince me that this team drafts well, albeit last year or the last 20. Yes theres some good, but drafting is a major issue here. Sorry to air there out for some of you in denial.

DGPR
07-04-2010, 11:34 PM
Yes Malik Sealy was hardly a Pacer. He played here 2 years out of an 8 year career, started 5 games and avg around 12 mins a game. Yes I would like to reitterate (sp?) Sealy was a waste of a 1st round pick.

How do you know that a deal for Rush was made? Do you work for the Pacers? Did someone with the knowledge call you and discuss this? I thinks not. Stick to the facts here, dont speculate.

When I mentioned the tweeners and whackjob list, I meant the players were one or the other, not both. My grammatical error sorry. Of course both Jones boys are good guys but theyre tweeners and contributed very little to this organization or any other. The Fred Jones pick was soooo wrong that it hurts. Horrible pick and everyone should know this. He was 6'1 with no jumper. Yes he was athletic but didnt have an aggressive bone in his body. I watched all his games bro. Waste of a mid 1st rounder. Pacers sold us on him because of his 4 year college career. They were wrong


After the Fred Jones pick there were only about 4 or 5 players picked in the final spots that were worth a damn anyways, so I wouldn't say he was exactly a total waste of a first rounder. He did stick around for about 8 years or so anyways.

Sookie
07-04-2010, 11:40 PM
I respect Pecks counter argument in his evaluation of our draft picks. But it def wasnt enough to convince me that this team has no sense of what to do on draft night. They trade pretty well tho, especially when we were contenders. Since those days tho, things have sucked around here. No balls.

I respect some of PacersPride posts but hes getting to emo and isnt really worth my time to argue.

Sorry I called Price an idiot, but if Im a pro athlete whos in the hunt of being a starter on an NBA roster then Im not putting myself in harms way.

I def respect others counter points as a whole. Keep em coming please. No name calling tho. Shame shame............

Not for your hometown? What's the kid supposed to do, tell his town and his mentor (Mike James) "no"? I'm sure he didn't expect to break his kneecap. It's terrible that it happened, and honestly I have more sympathy for the kid..because it was a charity game. Should he not lift weights, train, practice either?

(Interestingly, Calhoun has a Uconn celebrity game every 2 years, obviously AJ can't play this year, but in the next two years it'll be interesting to see what he does...seeing as according to Caron Butler..no one in their right mind would say no to Calhoun)

gopacers1179
07-04-2010, 11:46 PM
After the Fred Jones pick there were only about 4 or 5 players picked in the final spots that were worth a damn anyways, so I wouldn't say he was exactly a total waste of a first rounder. He did stick around for about 8 years or so anyways. I agree that there wasnt much beyond Jones left, except for Boozer and Tayshaun Prince, who played lights out for big programs butnahh, lets take Jones at 14. LOL, come on man. Thats just bad business. FFS Prince scored 40 in the 1st round for Kentucky during March Madness.

Also for you haters, Im not mentioning anything about what the Pacers "couldve" had but who they took and how their careers panned out. Very few contributed anything to the Pacers and many left before their prime. Bad business thats it.

Eleazar
07-04-2010, 11:58 PM
I don't quite get how AD played his prime for another team? half of his prime was spent with the Pacers, hell one could argue that 60% of his prime was with the Pacers. His stats were basically the same for his first 10 seasons, and they were more reliant on how many minutes he received than whether or not he was in his prime. I can guarantee that if he played 35 minutes per game while with the Pacers he would have averaged 15 and 10 like he did with Toronto. I don't think it would be unreasonable to assume that 10+ more minutes would have have had 3 more rebounds and 5 more points per game while with the Pacers.

DGPR
07-05-2010, 12:05 AM
I agree that there wasnt much beyond Jones left, except for Boozer and Tayshaun Prince, who played lights out for big programs butnahh, lets take Jones at 14. LOL, come on man. Thats just bad business. FFS Prince scored 40 in the 1st round for Kentucky during March Madness.

Also for you haters, Im not mentioning anything about what the Pacers "couldve" had but who they took and how their careers panned out. Very few contributed anything to the Pacers and many left before their prime. Bad business thats it.


Then you have to agree that every other team in the draft after pick 14 except those two teams screwed the pooch on draft night.

gopacers1179
07-05-2010, 12:07 AM
this thread is a whole lotta b*tching and moaning all steming from one year where we did not draft a point guard and instead chose hansbrough. then going onto to whine more about the past 20 some years of draft picks. ----call it what you want. I call it constructive criticism.

first of all, the pacers were competing for championships pretty much 95-03.. you knock picks like David harrison who was drafted 30th overall, get a clue. your not going to have great players drop to you at the end of the first round. of course there are exceptions but rare at best. he played here for a small time and was a problem --- Harrison was a problem from day 1. Funny youre mad I knock him. Get real son

you also do not include Jeff Foster on your list, nor did you include John Bender, who the pacers traded AD to acquire.------ considering the pacers were competing for years criticizing draft picks is nonsense. I didnt mention Bender because I feel sorry for the kid. Yes we traded for the draft rights to Foster. SUPER DEAL FOR US!!!!!!!! He was ok but he cant block a shot, hit a jumper or free throw, or pass well. Cool man. Go Foster!

also.. if your truly a loyal pacer fan you should appreciate the fact that this team went to the eastern conference finals 5-6 times in the span of 8-10 seasons which is really unheard of. and if not for the malice in the palace we might still be contending and continuing our playoff streak. ----- I do appreciate this and cant wait for our comeback.

if you want to jump ship, bon voyage. open your eyes first before typing these type of things.. pacers were dealt a serious blow by the brawl incident.. then had to reshuffle the entire deck to reshape the image of the team. ---- shut up about the jump ship. Brawl sucked but hey we've done little to rebound from it. Bad decisions

there are several things i could go on and rant and rave about here with your post. but most of all i dont think your considering the bigger picture. how good this team was from 91-03, and all the consecutive playoff appearances. and how much the brawl destroyed this team, and with it we had to rebuild. true the rebuild has taken awhile, more due to the fact we had walsh/bird running the ship and it was not meant to be that way. we were setup through the 2000's, with JO, Artest, Jack, Tins, Foster, and a team that was competing for championships. Bird/Walsh were putting it on cruise control, but then the brawl and changes had to be made. significant changes and it was time for the team to be either bird or walsh's.

last thing is.. you bash our drafting.. well there has only been two gm's for this team in the last 20+ seasons.-------. walsh and bird. - right and?

are you going to criticize walsh for the team he constructed, not only through the drafts, but via trades as well. like i said we had 10+ seasons of going to the playoffs and were always competing in the ECF.------ Walsh raped in trades while we were contenders. When that changed, no one will deal with us. Cmon man youre talking about the guy who over paid for Croshere and Tinsley. Just shut up

the Bird/Walsh era together was bad, but that had more to do with the brawl than anything, and 3 seasons of perhaps bad moves do not discount 13 years of success.- ----ok thats true

now bird is in charge, and from his drafts alone i think he has done well... not great but well. Rush is not a bad player and like the choice of Hibbert, obviously the verdict is out on Hansbrough (the reason for this thread) but he should be fine.. and the George pick most pacers fan like.-------done well lol. Yeh I see it. Hes done poor to ok at tops.

you say Granger was an obvious pick.. not so fast.. Gerald Green was suppose to be the next Tracy McGrady, and Bird chose Granger.. so dont take that draft selection so lightly.. Green was also suppose to go in the lottery, possibly a top 5 pick.-------- not so fast lol. Green was like 18 years old. Sure we'll take him over Granger. Youre stuff is so weak at times.

i think your missing the bigger picture here, and this thread really has very little merit in my opinion, and you top it off by saying your gonna start rooting for another team. i for one have never been a fairweather fan and anyone who lacks loyalty to their team because they have down years isnt a true fan so why were discussing this thread from someone who wants to put the Pacers on the "shelf" and root for another team seems pointless from the start. ----- good for you. Im an emotional guy and talk big. Thats who I am. Nice to meet you

thats my two cents.. enjoy rooting on the bulls and when the Pacers become relevant again maybe you can find a seat on the bandwagon then. the true fans bleed blue & gold through the good times and the bad.------- that was 1 cent and a half imho

move your reggie miller jersey to the back of the closet.. maybe you can find a discount on some ron artest laker jersey's. you state you have been paying attn for the last 20 years.. seems kinda obvious to me that you needed a history lesson.----------- I hate Artest for what he did to us, and I hate us for how we handled him. FYI I lost $2500 to a friend because I had the field vs LA this year. My argument was, Artest was gonna kill that team. He almost did but they were too good to allow it.

gopacers1179
07-05-2010, 12:13 AM
I don't quite get how AD played his prime for another team? half of his prime was spent with the Pacers, hell one could argue that 60% of his prime was with the Pacers. His stats were basically the same for his first 10 seasons, and they were more reliant on how many minutes he received than whether or not he was in his prime. I can guarantee that if he played 35 minutes per game while with the Pacers he would have averaged 15 and 10 like he did with Toronto. I don't think it would be unreasonable to assume that 10+ more minutes would have have had 3 more rebounds and 5 more points per game while with the Pacers. AD was drafted in 1990. He didnt play here until 1993. He didnt get much of a chance here with Smits, but he was def a more polished, in control of his talent in Toronto. No denying that.

Doug
07-05-2010, 12:40 AM
he signed here at the end of his career to help a team in the hunt. So what. He was nice but def not a game changer at 32 years of age. He did hit that awesome shot in the playoffs tho. Love Scott.Skill-wise, he was definitely on the down-side of his career, but do not underestimate his impact on the Pacers. Bryon really helped this team get over the hump. His impact was HUGE.


Other people have already chimed in on most of your evaluations, but I'd add that IMO Al played his best ball with the Pacers. After he blew his knee (on my birthday!), he wasn't the same player. He might have had better seasons statistically, but I'd take the pre-injury Al over the his non-Pacers years easy.

PacersPride
07-05-2010, 12:42 AM
I respect Pecks counter argument in his evaluation of our draft picks. But it def wasnt enough to convince me that this team has no sense of what to do on draft night. They trade pretty well tho, especially when we were contenders. Since those days tho, things have sucked around here. No balls.

I respect some of PacersPride posts but hes getting to emo and isnt really worth my time to argue.

Sorry I called Price an idiot, but if Im a pro athlete whos in the hunt of being a starter on an NBA roster then Im not putting myself in harms way in a charity game. Not like it was the summer league. Even the thought of me arguing over Price lets me know, the Pacers are in deep doo doo.

I def respect others counter points as a whole. Keep em coming please. No name calling tho. Shame shame............


No one has yet to convince me that this team drafts well, albeit last year or the last 20. Yes theres some good, but drafting is a major issue here. Sorry to air there out for some of you in denial.

again, when your a championship caliber team for over a DECADE, how do you expect to acquire talent when your always selecting in the bottom of the draft????????? i really wish you would answer that one point for starters.

the year after the brawl we had the 17th pick, due to a terrible record that season with missing JO, Artest, Jack. i remember that was the only good coming from that seasons cause we FINALLY had a decent draft pick. therefore, when your not selecting in the top 10 like the clippers every season, your not going to have a chance at landing high-end potential players, you have to do it via trades, which you admitted Walsh did very well.

your entire argument is borderline retarded (im not calling you retarded, just that your argument is such, i want to be clear on that point).

its not that im emo as you state, its more due to the fact you are criticising a team's drafting over the last 20 years, that has been to the ECF's 6 times, the NBA finals once, and went to the playoffs 10+ consective seasons.

this is not the NFL, you do not find talent at the end of the first round very often. yet the pacers did find some talent like Foster, Harrington, and a couple others at times and yet all these playoff/ECF's appearances were not good enough for you.

maybe you would have been better just simply stating what it is you are truly complaining about here... and that is the length of time this rebuilding process has taken. thats what it sounds like to me your really :censored: off about here.

i mean.. would you have written this post in 2003, and said man we really stink at drafting.. blah blah blah.. were the worst at drafting.. yada yada yada.. oh but im glad we have contended in the ECF's 6 times over the last 8 years... but man our drafting has to improve.

LMAO. of course you wouldnt have. so your real argument here is the length of time its taken for this team to recover from the brawl, oh and the fact we drafted Hansbrough over a much needed pg.

well ive got news for ya.. most pacer fans on here feel pretty much the same way.. were all sick and tired of waiting around for Bird's 3 year plan to take affect, but to initiate a thread stating were the top 5 worst teams drafting ever really doesnt amount to a hill of beans here.

wheres your proof on this.. and again considering where we drafted why dont you go back and look at the other teams players who drafted in that area of the selection process and see how well they fared.

i also disagree with Fred Jones comment, the guy was not terrible, and he contributed on a very good team for awhile.

there are so many invalid points here in your argument we could go for days on this topic.

but your going to fail to see the bigger picture, and that is we contended for over a decade.. teams like that do not land studs in the draft.. hell, i will make this simple for you, one team that has been good for a long time has been the San Antonio Spurs, and many consider them to be one of the best teams at drafting players.. why dont you do a side by side comparison of those two teams drafts over the last 10-15 years and see how many studs they landed in the later rounds. Blair was a no-brainer so he doesnt count by your logic.. lol.

i will give you two.. Parker (drafted after Tins), and Manu.. but i want to see the remainder of their drafts and lets see how well the Pacers stack up to a team that comparatively speaking drafted in the later rounds much like the pacers did for over 15 years.

then your comment of us being the top 5 at drafting players might have some validity.. until then its all a bunch of nonsense. looking forward to the comparison of Spurs vs Pacers draft analysis. and hey i might be wrong.. maybe they landed solid players ever year, but outside of Duncan (#1 overall) i bet their drafts are not much better than ours.

how is the okc forum treating ya.. making new friends?

Day-V
07-05-2010, 12:57 AM
i also disagree with Fred Jones comment, the guy was not terrible, and he contributed on a very good team for awhile.

Agreed. Fred Jones was one of the few guys keeping us afloat while SJax and JO were missing post-brawl.

gopacers1179
07-05-2010, 01:22 AM
Dear PacersPride

First of all, you're going way off base from my argument. I specifically call out the Pacers poor draft history. Im not judging the franchise in a negative way, just in the draft dumdum. You're making it sound Im saying the draft had cost us a title or something. I loved our trades for instance up until we lost the edge on our competition. We now have guys whos jobs on the line and the decision process in IND seems suspect.

I began my post mentioning Im holding a grudge over the fact that we draft a PF > a legit first round point guard when if anyone had any clue wouldve noticed that big men were going to be available the following year, ones who have just as much potential of Tyler. Hell, I wouldnt complained if last year we take Lawson and this year for instance we take Tyler over George. I like Tyler. Im not mad at him. Our PG situation is absolutely atrocious right now and it couldve been solved if the brass did their research instead of picking a guy who might never start here. I do here you on this aint the NFL argument. That was smart by you. Funny Thunder link tho. You painting the wrong picture brah.

Then I go on to take a look at our draft history and theres been many more misses than makes. Most of our draft picks were traded a season or two and never played big mins FOR the Pacers. Thats not really debatable. How many all star games did any draft pick we've had the last 20 years played in. Maybe 2 off the top of my head. I truly believe this area needs to be further addressed. SORRRRRRYYYYYYY.

And for the guy defending Fred Jones, yeh he was cool. But everyone evaluating draft night mentioned "wow, this guy was supposed to go in the 2nd round". And they were right. He stepped up after the brawl cause he was one of 6 players LOL. Please dont defend Fred, defend Al or something. Just not Fred. He was a dumb pick through and through

Oh and the Spurs draft history buries ours. Dont go there. Anywhere but there.

Duncan ( I know first pick!!!)
Sean Elliot
Ginobili
Parker
John Salmons(didnt play there, still helluva a pick)
Luis Scola(didnt play there, still helluva pick)
Leandro Barbosa didnt play there, good pick)
George Hill (helluva pick)
Goran Dragic(didnt play there, good pick so far)
Dejuan Blair(2nd rounder, played huge mins in rookie season)






2009
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
2 DeJuan Blair Pittsburgh
2 Jack McClinton Miami
2 Nando De Colo France

2008
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 George Hill Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis
2 Goran Dragic Union Olimpija (SLO)

2007
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Tiago Splitter Brazil
2 Marcus Williams University of Arizona
2 Giorgos Printezis Greece

2006
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
2 Damir Markota Croatia

2005
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Ian Mahinmi France

2004
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Beno Udrih Slovenia
2 Romain Sato Xavier
2 Sergei Karaulov Jakutsk (Russia)

2003
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Leandrinho Barbosa Brazil

2002
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 John Salmons Miami
2 Luis Scola Tau Ceramica (Spain)
2 Randy Holcomb San Diego State

2001
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Tony Parker None
2 Robertas Javtokas
2 Bryan Bracey Oregon

2000
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
2 Chris Carrawell Duke

1999
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
2 Emmanuel Ginobili Italy

1998
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Felipe Lopez St. John's
2 Derrick Dial Eastern Michigan

1997
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Tim Duncan Wake Forest

1995
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Cory Alexander Virginia

1994
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Bill Curley Boston College

1993
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
2 Chris Whitney Clemson

1992
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Tracy Murray UCLA
2 Henry Williams North Carolina-Charlotte

1991
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
2 Greg Sutton Oral Roberts

1990
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Dwayne Schintzius Florida
2 Tony Massenburg Maryland
2 Sean Higgins Michigan

1989
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Sean Elliott Arizona

1988
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Willie Anderson Georgia
2 Shelton Jones St. John's
3 Barry Sumpter Austin Peay
3 Archie Marshall Kansas

1987
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 David Robinson N

PacersPride
07-05-2010, 01:44 AM
Originally Posted by PacersPride
this thread is a whole lotta criticizing all steming from one year where we did not draft a point guard and instead chose hansbrough. then going onto to whine more about the past 20 some years of draft picks. ----call it what you want. I call it constructive criticism.

constructive critism that from 91-03 we were an elite level franchise but your upset cause we did not draft well from the bottom of the first round?? again, i think what your really peeved about is two things.. the length of time its taken to rebuild, and the hansbrough selection. your not in the minority with being peeved about these down years, and many pacer fans disagreed with the hansbrough choice, but the difference is, some of these same pacer fans are willing to see what we have first in Hansbrough, before starting a thread like this. i personally love the hustle, intelligence, aggessiveness, and athletism (was surprised on the last one) from what ive seen from Hansbrough. sure we needed a pg, but were we going to be in the NBA finals had we drafted one over TH; probably not. im confident Hansbrough, if healthy will win over many pacer fans for the next 10 years and all will be forgotten about us not drafting a pg. moreover, the guy who was going to be drafting from what i recall was Lawson, and I prob would still rather have Hansbrough over him at this point. ya, we needed a pg but there is also the theory of best player available, and thats what i believe we have in Hansbrough.

first of all, the pacers were competing for championships pretty much 95-03.. you knock picks like David harrison who was drafted 30th overall, get a clue. your not going to have great players drop to you at the end of the first round. of course there are exceptions but rare at best. he played here for a small time and was a problem --- Harrison was a problem from day 1. Funny youre mad I knock him. Get real son

first, please dont call me son, i know its some cool lingo some ppl like to use but you got no idea who your talking too, so refrain from using childish remarks like calling someone son that you dont know.. its pretty offensive to me and i dont like it, i dont care what kinda context your using it in. in regard to Harrison, he was a pot smoker, thats bout the only thing i can think of as far as him being a problem. but he was also a 7'0 300 lb beast and if ever would have put it altogether he would have been one helluva a pacer for the blue & gold at the number 30th selection. i still dont think you realize that the NBA draft is different from the NFL draft. how many players in the league drafted 30th overall make it for more than a few seasons. seriously man, your logic is flawed. moreover, and these are just my personal thoughts on the matter, Carlisle nvr used harrison correctly, his biggest issue was foul problems. i nvr understood why Carlisle would pull the kid when he had 2-3 fouls in the first half.. so what, he played limited minutes anyways, and was not even sometimes put back in the game in the second half, why not let him foul out, i dont care if he had 6 fouls in 10 minutes.. let him learn not to foul out. Harrison's biggest issue was foul problems and he could never get over that obstacle. he just started to blow up more and more. the refs were watching him like a hawk. Carlisle shouda just let the kid play even if he had 4 fouls in the first half. anyways.. none of this probably is going to compute for you so i will move on here.


you also do not include Jeff Foster on your list, nor did you include John Bender, who the pacers traded AD to acquire.------ considering the pacers were competing for years criticizing draft picks is nonsense. I didnt mention Bender because I feel sorry for the kid. Yes we traded for the draft rights to Foster. SUPER DEAL FOR US!!!!!!!! He was ok but he cant block a shot, hit a jumper or free throw, or pass well. Cool man. Go Foster!

yes, as many pacer fans do about Bender, first time we probably had a pick in the top ten in the last 20 years. in fact, its probably the only top 10 pick weve had in the last 20 years up until this season that is. and you wonder why we have a hard time drafting, boy im glad your not a clippers fan.. they routinely select inside the top 10. in regard to fiesty foster, one of my favorite pacer players of all-time.. lets see he couldnt block or shoot.. hmmm.. you ever heard of dennis rodman.. guess rodman sucked too in your opinon as well. and i disagree foster was a better shooter than given credit for, was just not asked to do it very often, couldnt pass??? where are you getting your facts from. Foster sacrificed soo much for the blue & gold, he was a natural power forward playing center, he rebounded like a machine.. but perhaps rebounding is non essential to you. and we got this guy where at in the draft.. like 24th or something??? honestly man.. if your dogging foster that pretty much says everything to me. Foster's jersey should be retired IMHO. ya know why, cause stats dont always indicate the type of player someone is. foster was mirror image of what dennis rodman was on the bad boys pistons teams. cheese and rice... your dogging Foster!!!!! i better stop cause im starting to get too "emo" on this point. : )

also.. if your truly a loyal pacer fan you should appreciate the fact that this team went to the eastern conference finals 5-6 times in the span of 8-10 seasons which is really unheard of. and if not for the malice in the palace we might still be contending and continuing our playoff streak. ----- I do appreciate this and cant wait for our comeback.

well i do as well, and if its going to happen its gonna happen in the draft. so since this incident here are our draft selections, and i dont care about 2nd rounders much like Peck so i did remember them. and these are only after the decline of Blue&Gold dominance. Granger (STUD), williams (dud), Rush (wait and see on this one, but not a bust), Hibbert (great selection), Hansbrough (see rush comment), George (time will tell). now that the draft is our means to competing again, i would say overall this is not terrible. i bet if you go back and look at these drafts you would like find many of the top 10 picks either out of the league or not really contributing. so again, the entire purpose of this thread is truly unreasonable and whimsical.

if you want to jump ship, bon voyage. open your eyes first before typing these type of things.. pacers were dealt a serious blow by the brawl incident.. then had to reshuffle the entire deck to reshape the image of the team. ---- shut up about the jump ship. Brawl sucked but hey we've done little to rebound from it. Bad decisions

hey.. you stated it not I. i was a diehard Colts fan for years, years while they sucked.. and not once did i ever claim to consider rooting for another team, not even in jest. so bad decisons after the brawl, and your upset with our drafts.. well ive listed the players weve drafted so i dont really know what there is to be critical of.. outside of the williams selection. and the bad decisons your likely referring to stem from the brawl, ie trading JO, Jack, Artest, and the Tins mess. whats your thoughts on the JO trade?? and we had to rid ourselves of the "thugs" perception, so your not going to get back even return on trades. the one bad decison i will agree with is the way the Tins ordeal was handled. we agree there, the rest of this has to be taken into consideration. and i will let the JO/ Tins balance themselves out. at least we didnt resign peja for max dollars so we could watch him sit on the bench due to injuries.

there are several things i could go on and rant and rave about here with your post. but most of all i dont think your considering the bigger picture. how good this team was from 91-03, and all the consecutive playoff appearances. and how much the brawl destroyed this team, and with it we had to rebuild. true the rebuild has taken awhile, more due to the fact we had walsh/bird running the ship and it was not meant to be that way. we were setup through the 2000's, with JO, Artest, Jack, Tins, Foster, and a team that was competing for championships. Bird/Walsh were putting it on cruise control, but then the brawl and changes had to be made. significant changes and it was time for the team to be either bird or walsh's.

last thing is.. you bash our drafting.. well there has only been two gm's for this team in the last 20+ seasons.-------. walsh and bird. - right and?

okay.. i will spell it out for you. who are you critical of b/c there are only two GM's to blame. one is Walsh, who enabled the Pacers to become a championship caliber team for a decade.. are you going to bash him for his draft selections while all this while assembling a team that was one game from beating the Chicago Bulls, the greatest basketball team ever in a 7 game series. i didnt think so. so i guess your upset with Bird, who inherited a mess and had to clean up the image of this once proud franchise. Bird hasnt been perfect, but considering the repercussions due to the brawl.. and Tins shooting up indy.. the guy is due a little bit of slack dont you think? his drafts are not the worst in the league as you illustrate, but its not going to happen overnight. my point was again, your bashing the drafts.. well walsh was the man you must be blaming since he was in control for over a decade, yet the teams he assembled were constantly in the playoffs.. so whats your point of this thread???

are you going to criticize walsh for the team he constructed, not only through the drafts, but via trades as well. like i said we had 10+ seasons of going to the playoffs and were always competing in the ECF.------ Walsh raped in trades while we were contenders. When that changed, no one will deal with us. Cmon man youre talking about the guy who over paid for Croshere and Tinsley. Just shut up

it only changed 3 seasons ago.. i really dont understand what your complaining about other than the length of time to rebuild this franchise, but its really not due to the drafts. i just dont get your POV. your upset cause we didnt draft well over the last 20 seasons, but yet we contended on a championship level for over 10+???? no one will deal with us b/c we dont have any valuable assets, and the assets we did have we were forced to trade due to the brawl. i mean.. please get a clue and i meant that in the nicest way.

the Bird/Walsh era together was bad, but that had more to do with the brawl than anything, and 3 seasons of perhaps bad moves do not discount 13 years of success.- ----ok thats true

maybe theres hope here after all

now bird is in charge, and from his drafts alone i think he has done well... not great but well. Rush is not a bad player and like the choice of Hibbert, obviously the verdict is out on Hansbrough (the reason for this thread) but he should be fine.. and the George pick most pacers fan like.-------done well lol. Yeh I see it. Hes done poor to ok at tops.

lets get to the heart of the matter here, b/c all this other garbage you posted about is irrelevant. your not peeved about the teams drafting over the last 20 years.. i mean did you sit and watch the ECF's during the 90's and early 2000's saying.. man if we only drafted better.. boo hooing. obviously your argument is truly about 04-10 am i right. man you coulda saved alot of folks on this board a heck of alot of time if you would have just said this from the get go. so your upset that we chose williams, and Hansbrough is that about it??? oh and that we got fleeced on a deal for Jack, Harrington, when we had to sell them for .75 cents on the dollar, and in all fairness, Dunleavy was playing close to an all-star prior to the injury. i will give you the Tins situation and that Bird didnt handle it well, but he also fleeced toronto in the trade involving JO. again.. alot of intepretation has to be done to get to the heart of the issue in your post.


you say Granger was an obvious pick.. not so fast.. Gerald Green was suppose to be the next Tracy McGrady, and Bird chose Granger.. so dont take that draft selection so lightly.. Green was also suppose to go in the lottery, possibly a top 5 pick.-------- not so fast lol. Green was like 18 years old. Sure we'll take him over Granger. Youre stuff is so weak at times.

what does 18 years old have to do with it.. Garnett was 18, Kobe was 18, Kwame Brown was 18, Dwight Howard was 18... Greene was another one of these superstar HS players. this is a great comeback to support your opinion.. Green was 18 years old.. LMAO.. and you say my stuff is weak.. take a look in the mirror my friend. im crushing your argument into a million pieces and all you have to say is Green was 18 years old, maybe im missing something here but i think several guys were getting drafted in the top 10 and only being 18 years old. maybe your right gopacers.. Andrew Bynum wouldve nvr been drafted by the pacers had he fallen to us... i mean c'mon.. HE WAS 18 YEARS OLD!!!!!!!!!!! what a joke.

i think your missing the bigger picture here, and this thread really has very little merit in my opinion, and you top it off by saying your gonna start rooting for another team. i for one have never been a fairweather fan and anyone who lacks loyalty to their team because they have down years isnt a true fan so why were discussing this thread from someone who wants to put the Pacers on the "shelf" and root for another team seems pointless from the start. ----- good for you. Im an emotional guy and talk big. Thats who I am. Nice to meet you

heres a bit of advice.. if you talk big, add some substance to back it up.

thats my two cents.. enjoy rooting on the bulls and when the Pacers become relevant again maybe you can find a seat on the bandwagon then. the true fans bleed blue & gold through the good times and the bad.------- that was 1 cent and a half imho

hahaha.. good one. again... your comebacks to support your POV are outstanding.


move your reggie miller jersey to the back of the closet.. maybe you can find a discount on some ron artest laker jersey's. you state you have been paying attn for the last 20 years.. seems kinda obvious to me that you needed a history lesson.

your welcome.. guess maybe we can talk again when the thunder come to town.

ps... your comments on Foster were not even worth a paso. probably my second favorite pacer of all-time behind only Reggie Miller.

BornReady
07-05-2010, 01:52 AM
Well I just read all these comments and decided it'd be easier to start with a clean slate and not go along with what others have been saying.

First of all, WELCOME to this board :) and I sure hope you decide to stay here instead of going to the Thunder. I think you bring some valuable and interesting perspectives.

While you do have a point, I feel like you've gone too far in your zealousness against Indy drafting. I will admit, I was livid after the Hansbrough pick (I myself realllllly wanted Jrue Holiday) but at the same time, it is very evident that Tyler DID have talent in college, and it'd be foolish to argue otherwise.

Another thing to consider is that even though this draft is loaded with pfs, how do you really think Tyler would compare? I personally think he'd be taken before both Ed Davis (who backed him and didn't really do too much) and Cole Aldrich (who has been in college for quite some time and does not have anywhere near the same accomplishments Hansbrough does,) which still makes sense for where he was drafted.

Yes, last year's draft was very PG heavy, but remember, MANY pgs were already taken by the time Indy drafted. Even though I really wanted Holiday, the fact of the matter is that he is still extremely raw and even though he does have a lot of potential, he many not realize it still. Lawson has proven to be a solid pick thus far, but if memory serves me correctly, he was often injured, which was a big knock against him. Nobody could have seen Darren Collison doing the things he does now. If you do, props to you. That just leaves us with other PGs that haven't done much more than Hansbrough, if they have at all. So in a sense, yes, maybe there was a better pick, but I don't think you can fault the Pacers for drafting the way they did.

I'm going to stay away from past draft picks, though I do agree, Shawne Williams was a bonehead draft pick and I wanted Rondo :)

gopacers1179
07-05-2010, 01:56 AM
do me a favor pacerpride. Youre a jerk who I no longer wanna argue Pacers basketball with. Ignore me and my posts please. You act as if youre passing out the bible of Pacer basketball history. Please get over yourself. In all cases of our arguments, you come across as someone I never wanna speak to. I understand Ive presented an argument open to alot of criticism but you reply as if I havent made one legit point. Others have agreed with portions of my argument. Thanks for honoring my wishes. G'day

PacersPride
07-05-2010, 02:37 AM
Dear PacersPride

First of all, you're going way off base from my argument. I specifically call out the Pacers poor draft history. Im not judging the franchise in a negative way, just in the draft dumdum. You're making it sound Im saying the draft had cost us a title or something. I loved our trades for instance up until we lost the edge on our competition. We now have guys whos jobs on the line and the decision process in IND seems suspect.

I began my post mentioning Im holding a grudge over the fact that we draft a PF > a legit first round point guard when if anyone had any clue wouldve noticed that big men were going to be available the following year, ones who have just as much potential of Tyler. Hell, I wouldnt complained if last year we take Lawson and this year for instance we take Tyler over George. I like Tyler. Im not mad at him. Our PG situation is absolutely atrocious right now and it couldve been solved if the brass did their research instead of picking a guy who might never start here. I do here you on this aint the NFL argument. That was smart by you. Funny Thunder link tho. You painting the wrong picture brah.

Then I go on to take a look at our draft history and theres been many more misses than makes. Most of our draft picks were traded a season or two and never played big mins FOR the Pacers. Thats not really debatable. How many all star games did any draft pick we've had the last 20 years played in. Maybe 2 off the top of my head. I truly believe this area needs to be further addressed. SORRRRRRYYYYYYY.

And for the guy defending Fred Jones, yeh he was cool. But everyone evaluating draft night mentioned "wow, this guy was supposed to go in the 2nd round". And they were right. He stepped up after the brawl cause he was one of 6 players LOL. Please dont defend Fred, defend Al or something. Just not Fred. He was a dumb pick through and through

Oh and the Spurs draft history buries ours. Dont go there. Anywhere but there.

Duncan ( I know first pick!!!)
Sean Elliot
Ginobili
Parker
John Salmons(didnt play there, still helluva a pick)
Luis Scola(didnt play there, still helluva pick)
Leandro Barbosa didnt play there, good pick)
George Hill (helluva pick)
Goran Dragic(didnt play there, good pick so far)
Dejuan Blair(2nd rounder, played huge mins in rookie season)






2009
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
2 DeJuan Blair Pittsburgh - this was a no-brainer.. doesnt count by your draft standards.
2 Jack McClinton Miami
2 Nando De Colo France

who are mcclinton and deColo???

2008
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 George Hill Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis
2 Goran Dragic Union Olimpija (SLO)

two very solid selections, but lets not overstate the importance of Hill being on a team with Tim Duncan. i mean would Rondo really be an all-star if he didnt play w/ 3 HOF's... these drafts are not all black & white. but to keep it simple, very good players, esp Dragic, but im not ready to annoit him the next steve nash just yet

2007
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Tiago Splitter Brazil
2 Marcus Williams University of Arizona
2 Giorgos Printezis Greece

yawn

2006
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
2 Damir Markota Croatia

yawn

2005
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Ian Mahinmi France

yawn

2004
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Beno Udrih Slovenia
2 Romain Sato Xavier
2 Sergei Karaulov Jakutsk (Russia)

yawn

2003
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Leandrinho Barbosa Brazil

not bad, why did they trade this guy. i wonder where he was taken in this draft,, prtty good.

2002
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 John Salmons Miami
2 Luis Scola Tau Ceramica (Spain)
2 Randy Holcomb San Diego State

salmons.. no all-star but okay pick.. i mean if Foster sucks in your opinion i cant really go heed over heels for salmons. Scola, good steal in the 2nd round.

2001
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Tony Parker None
2 Robertas Javtokas
2 Bryan Bracey Oregon

parker.. thanks Isaiah.. maybe if Bird were here he woulda drafted the european player.

2000
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
2 Chris Carrawell Duke

sucks

1999
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
2 Emmanuel Ginobili Italy

steal.. i gave you parker and ginobili but again lets not underestimate Tim Duncans impact on these guys.

1998
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Felipe Lopez St. John's
2 Derrick Dial Eastern Michigan

who?

1997
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Tim Duncan Wake Forest

ahh.. gamechager. if only Bender had avoided the injuries

1995
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Cory Alexander Virginia

who?



1994
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Bill Curley Boston College

LMAO

1993
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
2 Chris Whitney Clemson

1992
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Tracy Murray UCLA
2 Henry Williams North Carolina-Charlotte


1991
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
2 Greg Sutton Oral Roberts

1990
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Dwayne Schintzius Florida
2 Tony Massenburg Maryland
2 Sean Higgins Michigan

1989
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Sean Elliott Arizona

obvious

1988
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 Willie Anderson Georgia
2 Shelton Jones St. John's
3 Barry Sumpter Austin Peay
3 Archie Marshall Kansas

1987
Rnd Name College/HS/Country Note
1 David Robinson N



I went there for a reason, b/c most nba "experts" consider the Spurs to be one of the best drafting teams in the NBA. so i wanted to see how the pacers held up vs the "best" drafting teams. im giving you all the ammo you can have on this argument to see if it holds any amount of substance.. i coulda said give me the knicks.. or the Clippers.. that really would have been a fun one. i will post the remainder of my comments in the selections above in bold.

i think its pretty clear, overall SAS hit some homeruns but they struck out quite a bit as well. and having Duncan, a HOF and considered to be one of the best players of all-time makes the George Hill's, Tony Parkers, and Manu Ginobili's go from average to good. Great players tend to do that.

so my grade for the Spurs.. B+
Pacers drafts B-

the biggest difference is Duncan. and Isaiah not drafting Parker. and this is one of the top 5 drafting teams of the NBA by many so-called experts, who are a realistic comparison to the Pacers based off of many years of success.

now if you really have some spare time on your hands someday.. go check out the clippers.. theyve had top 10 picks for over 20 years and our drafts are still better than theirs im guessing.

i can think of probably 15 teams that draft worse than the pacers..

nets, hawks, toronto, washington, bucks, cavs (pre James), charlotte, nuggets, clippers, seattle/okc, warriors, 76ers, t-wolves, grizzlies, kings

all these teams for the most part are usuallly in the lottery year in and year out, and yet have always been brutal when it comes to drafting nba players.

there are some teams maybe the pacers are parallel with like the bulls, magic and so on..

but few teams really have an outstanding draft resume.. spurs, jazz (hayward? we will see how that turn out, and i hope good to be honest but uh...), and maybe a couple others.

but the point is.. teams like the mavs, rockets, celtics (up until recently), lakers and whoever i might have missed have not really been great at drafting either.

the reason is the draft is alotta times a crapshoot, anymore tho i think the nba is following the nfl's path and really doing their homework on these players. i think it is also a good idea to make HS kids at least play one season in college.. i mean how do you really scout HS kids. also its less work for nba scouts.

its already noticeable that teams are really honing in on the nba draft. and i think the pacers followed suit this year as well, with the selection of Paul George but time will tell.

alright.. thats enuff of this stuff. its been fun.. sorta i guess proving to you the pacers are not as bad at drafting as you make it out to be.

with that said.. i would encourage you to be patient cause i believe Legend wants this franchise to win more badly than you or I, and all the other posters on this forum combined. He was a winner in college, as a player in the nba, and as a coach, and he will succeed in the GM role as well, its just taking a little longer than us pacer fans are willing to wait. he made some mistakes early on as a rookie GM.. ie tins, williams, but he is building this team in a manner that will enable them to dominate for a decade, or at least contend.

he is adding solid role players in Rush, Hansbrough, Price, mcbob, and solid starters like Hibbert, Granger, and hopefully George. we are one season away from having cap space, which is kinda overrated going into next season.. but if we can land a top flight pg.. a positon i value to be one of the most important,, similar to a qb in football, then were gonna be headed for great things once these guys mature, and we find a good coach.

this is part of the reason im not soo frustrated as you are with selecting hansbrough.. players like him are like offensive linemen, or linebackers.. when we draft a pg lets make sure he is the right guy.. much like a a qb, cause the position often is most critical in terms of success in the nba.

sorry for the long-winded sermon here pacer fans. i believe better days are still ahead for the blue and gold and Legend will lead us there. as long as JOB stops killing our draft position winning meaningless games when he could be playing some of the younger guys sometimes.

now i will agree with gopacers on one thing... get us a point guard Bird!!!!

Eleazar
07-05-2010, 03:22 AM
Honestly I think the reason it may seem like the Pacers suck at drafting because of the Colts. If you look at Polian and the Colts it is just hit after hit after hit. It seems like every draft he gets 3 future starters. That is partially just due to how many more players and positions there are, but there is a bigger reason for that. Polian may be the best drafter ever in any sport. Not only does the NBA draft and NFL draft radically different because of the amount of players/positions and the style of sports, but no one in sports today can really live up to Polian when it comes to drafting.

Really the Colts success I believe is really hurting the Pacers. The Pacers were great for the majority of the 90's, almost always in the playoffs and competing. Then right when the Pacers fell off, the Colts had just started to become one of the best teams in the NFL. So there was no point that allowed people to bring down their expectations, so people ask, "If the Colts can do it why can't the Pacers?" Without even considering the differences between the sports and leagues.

gopacers1179
07-05-2010, 04:09 AM
Honestly I think the reason it may seem like the Pacers suck at drafting because of the Colts. If you look at Polian and the Colts it is just hit after hit after hit. It seems like every draft he gets 3 future starters. That is partially just due to how many more players and positions there are, but there is a bigger reason for that. Polian may be the best drafter ever in any sport. Not only does the NBA draft and NFL draft radically different because of the amount of players/positions and the style of sports, but no one in sports today can really live up to Polian when it comes to drafting.

Really the Colts success I believe is really hurting the Pacers. The Pacers were great for the majority of the 90's, almost always in the playoffs and competing. Then right when the Pacers fell off, the Colts had just started to become one of the best teams in the NFL. So there was no point that allowed people to bring down their expectations, so people ask, "If the Colts can do it why can't the Pacers?" Without even considering the differences between the sports and leagues. Well said but honestly that has nothing to do with me being disappointed at the body of our draft strategy. More times than not, who this organization has drafted did little for this franchise as a whole. Most of all, they dropped the ball in last years draft and whos in charge of the future of this team needs to held responsible soon. We'll see how they manage the deals pending the next handful of months but they must hit a home run in a trade. Theyre gonna play their way into another high lottery pick and no chance of landing a franchise player in 2011 via free agency. I really hope Bird can get JOB out and build a real hungry team through trades that feature players with star potential.

mildlysane
07-05-2010, 08:19 AM
Blah Blah Blah I am a troll blah blah blah
Someone get up and move the needle...this record is scratched. Seriously, man, hindsight is 20/20. EVERY draft is a crap shoot. We had a team in the past that made the playoffs every year and almost won a championship. This was after years and years of suckdom. Now you come along and wanna rip the only positive memories that we have of our team, during a depressing dark era for us. Of course we are gonna be upset with you. And, by the way....if most people (some of whom are some the smartest people I have seen talk about the NBA) disagree with you, then PERHAPS you are the one in the wrong.:box:

Drewtone
07-05-2010, 10:34 AM
do me a favor pacerpride. Youre a jerk who I no longer wanna argue Pacers basketball with.... I understand Ive presented an argument open to alot of criticism but you reply as if I havent made one legit point.

For most on this board, this is an example of, whether or not your argument made legit points, your overall tone in this thread made them, to coin a certain coach, irrelevant.

BlueNGold
07-05-2010, 11:27 AM
Isn't it easy to pile on without posting anything to refute his position? Yes, he's wrong but the majority of this thread is not worth reading. Time to close it IMHO.