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View Full Version : Bird's 3 year plan working?



indy05colts
07-03-2010, 10:13 PM
Hey guys,

I'm new to the board. Seems like everyone one here pretty much hates the moves and decisions Bird has made. I'm on the other side of things. I think we are in a great position. This year will be another tough year and we will not make the playoffs. However, if things go the way I think and hope they will. Here are the reasons we are in a great position.

1. We have good young talent, that is developing and will continue to develop.

2. Fringe superstar in Granger

3. Hella cap room next year to sign hopefully 2 stars. ( I know everyone believes the class is weak)

4. Not being in the market this year will save us from WAY over spending, like the other teams are doing now.

Moves we need to make.

1. Not sign a stopgap at pg this year. Let TJ play the point and let the dude score and score. This will help trade the guy at the deadline. We are not going to make the playoffs anyway, so why put him on the bench and destroy his value? No need to sign farmer, lowery, or whoever just to increase their value in a way that wont help us.

3. Play our other young players and let them develp and play together (George, Stevenson, Rush, etc...)

4. Fire OB this year and bring in a new coach who can start to coach our young talent. Not sure who I would like. But sure M. Jackson would help to bring a buzz back to the pacers.


What do you guys think? I'm sure some of you stat guys will destroy my opinions :)

pizza guy
07-03-2010, 11:51 PM
First of all, :welcome: to the Digest! Awesome place to discuss Pacers and basketball in general, get a few laughs, and it's a great way to stay in shape!

To your post, I'd generally agree, actually. Firing Obie is about the only thing that everyone on this board agrees on. I'd like to get Ford moved before the season starts, along with Murphy, but you're probably right that we need to let him play and score and raise his value somewhat beyond just being an expiring contract.

I love that we have what appears to be a solid, if not spectacular group of young players that will hopefully develop and join Danny Granger in making a playoff push in the next couple years. The cap space we'll have (if we keep those contracts) will be an amazing way to put the Pacers in contention sooner than later.

I think the one thing I'd disagree with is Farmar. I've liked Farmar since he declared for the draft and I hoped we would draft him. Now that he's looking for a starting job, I think we've got a great situation here for him and I believe he would be worth it. But, it does sort of depend on what we can do with Ford.

Again, welcome to the board, enjoy your stay. Call me for pizza, Peck for emergencies, and UncleBuck for hookers:eek: ;)

--pizza

BornReady
07-03-2010, 11:58 PM
I like what you have on this post, minus letting Ford play :P
I do like our youth a lot, but I just wish they'd actually get playing time.

Bball
07-04-2010, 12:48 AM
. Firing Obie is about the only thing that everyone on this board agrees on.

--pizza

Somewhere Unclebuck just teared up... ;)

pizza guy
07-04-2010, 12:52 AM
Yeah, I should add that whatever topic everyone agrees on, UB will probably be the apologist. ;)

--pizza

ToasterBusVIP
07-04-2010, 01:22 AM
Hey guys,

I'm new to the board. Seems like everyone one here pretty much hates the moves and decisions Bird has made. I'm on the other side of things. I think we are in a great position. This year will be another tough year and we will not make the playoffs. However, if things go the way I think and hope they will. Here are the reasons we are in a great position.

1. We have good young talent, that is developing and will continue to develop.

2. Fringe superstar in Granger

3. Hella cap room next year to sign hopefully 2 stars. ( I know everyone believes the class is weak)

4. Not being in the market this year will save us from WAY over spending, like the other teams are doing now.

Moves we need to make.

1. Not sign a stopgap at pg this year. Let TJ play the point and let the dude score and score. This will help trade the guy at the deadline. We are not going to make the playoffs anyway, so why put him on the bench and destroy his value? No need to sign farmer, lowery, or whoever just to increase their value in a way that wont help us.

3. Play our other young players and let them develp and play together (George, Stevenson, Rush, etc...)

4. Fire OB this year and bring in a new coach who can start to coach our young talent. Not sure who I would like. But sure M. Jackson would help to bring a buzz back to the pacers.


What do you guys think? I'm sure some of you stat guys will destroy my opinions :)

I agree with you! You are not alone! :D

I think there have been a few missteps here and there, but in the overall picture I don't believe there's really anything Bird could have done to have us in a better situation going into 10-11. Three years ago (well, actually two), the term "three year plan" was chosen for a reason. There were a number of things that had to happen in order for us to get back into contention...and it was well recognized at the start of this "plan" that some of the most important steps were almost certainly NOT going to happen until, yeah, three years later. As much as everyone else wishes otherwise, we weren't going to trade Dunleavy and Murphy for Kobe Bryant.

I do think that in hindsight O'Brien hasn't been the ideal coach for this team, and enough emphasis hasn't been put on player development and instead goes towards playing veterans and more reliable players. But behind the initial hiring choice Bird made, those decisions are the territory of the coach. He's here to win as many games as possible, while developing players as he does so. That's what he was hired to do, and for the last couple of years that hasn't really helped our situation any.

No one was going to sacrifice wins for ping pong balls, and it would seem, for player development either. That's who the coach is, and that's who Bird is. I don't think either one was brought to the Pacers organization with the expectation that he'd want to do anything to the contrary.

millertime90
07-04-2010, 01:37 AM
get a new coach, find a young pg/pf with game (collison/okafor?), get rid of murphy, and then i will be buying season tickets again. but honestly, we're a lot closer to being competitive than where we were last year and the year before...unlike many, i think the only way we could have drafted better given our inability to tank is if we had gone after lawal in the 2nd. i absolutely love the george and stephenson picks and think the pacers finally have some hope because of it.

Unclebuck
07-04-2010, 07:49 AM
Just never a good idea to suggest that "everyone" agrees on anything.

On the 3 year question - get back with me in 15 months when the contracts have expired or have been traded.

Putnam
07-04-2010, 08:05 AM
Welcome!

I don't understand the argument to stand pat at point guard. You allude to a "stopgap" point guard, but a couple of the people being considered are good enough to lead the team for years to come.

If the Pacers can get Farmar or Conley or a couple of the others being discussed, I think they ought to do it. And if they don't sign anyone new and AJ Price isn't healthy, then Earl Watson ought to run the show. NOT TJ.

pizza guy
07-04-2010, 08:21 AM
Just never a good idea to suggest that "everyone" agrees on anything.

On the 3 year question - get back with me in 15 months when the contracts have expired or have been traded.

True, I'll put an asterisk by "everyone" if I use it again, and add a footnote clarifying that "everyone" excludes those who don't agree, UB in particular. :laugh:

So in the case of Jim O'Brien, *everyone agrees he should be fired. And you're also right about waiting to see what happens with the expirings/cap space.

--pizza

*The term "everyone" in this case only means everyone who actually agrees and does not bind anyone who does not agree to the statement in which the term was used.

indy05colts
07-04-2010, 08:46 AM
Thanks for the warm welcome.

Putnam - My argument about stopgap point guard is very simple. I don't believe Farmer, Lowry, or Conley are good enough to be a starting pg for a championship team. Even if they are, Bird only wants to offer 1 year contracts. This will only allow that pg to play for himself and not for the team. If they turn out to be pretty good, they will be getting way better contracts next year and of course we would just let them walk.

UncleBuck - sorry for upsetting you with my use of "everyone" :) 15 months is is....

Bornready - my reason of Ford. Look at Tinsley. I know the situation is different, but if would would have handled that differently and played the guy for like 2 months and ran the O thru him. I'm sure Bird could have traded him and got something decent ouf of the deal, instead of paying a thug to tuck dollar bills and fire semi autos in the streets . So play Ford and make him look better then he really is. Let him dribble around and run the O thur him. Let him drive and score or dish. Then make the trade with someone looking for a point guard (injury to starting pg or back up, contender looking for spark off the bench to run the 2nd team)

Alright... everyone have a great 4th of July

Anthem
07-04-2010, 08:53 AM
I'm currently very pessimistic about winning any free agent wars next year. How's that working for New York?

The expiring contracts are worth most in a trade. Barring that, our next best option is to take salary back in a trade (aka Kirk Hinrich, Marcus Camby). If our plan is just "go out and sign lotsa free agents" I'm not hopeful.

pizza guy
07-04-2010, 09:09 AM
I'm currently very pessimistic about winning any free agent wars next year. How's that working for New York?

The expiring contracts are worth most in a trade. Barring that, our next best option is to take salary back in a trade (aka Kirk Hinrich, Marcus Camby). If our plan is just "go out and sign lotsa free agents" I'm not hopeful.

I'm with you on this one. Playing the FA market is a good way to overpay for someone to under-perform. And like you said, would we be able to draw anyone in if New York is having trouble?

You're more likely to get more equal value in a trade, and you have a wider selection of players to try to get than in FA. I do think this is the best way to go, but if Bird can't get something done in trades, then we're not totally up a creek because we'll have cap space.

Other than FAs, having that cap space will allow us to make deals for other draft picks as well next season, and maybe we add that way instead of signing someone. The odds of getting Melo or Durant are really slim, but if that's what you have to try to do, then at least we'll have money to try with.

--pizza

pacers74
07-04-2010, 09:11 AM
I'm currently very pessimistic about winning any free agent wars next year. How's that working for New York?

The expiring contracts are worth most in a trade. Barring that, our next best option is to take salary back in a trade (aka Kirk Hinrich, Marcus Camby). If our plan is just "go out and sign lotsa free agents" I'm not hopeful.

I agree, if we wait we are more likley to end up overpaying like Detroit. Charlie V. and Ben Gordon yuck!:eek:

Gamble1
07-04-2010, 09:21 AM
I'm currently very pessimistic about winning any free agent wars next year. How's that working for New York?

The expiring contracts are worth most in a trade. Barring that, our next best option is to take salary back in a trade (aka Kirk Hinrich, Marcus Camby). If our plan is just "go out and sign lotsa free agents" I'm not hopeful.
I was thinking about this earlier. How many teams will be far under the cap next year. This should be a indicator if the Pacers will overpay or not for a FA.

I have a feeling that FA's will not have that many options next year.

pizza guy
07-04-2010, 09:36 AM
I was thinking about this earlier. How many teams will be far under the cap next year. This should be a indicator if the Pacers will overpay or not for a FA.

I have a feeling that FA's will not have that many options next year.

In part, it depends on how things shake out with this year's FAs. Just because a team with cap space this summer doesn't land LeBron or Wade, it doesn't mean they'll use it all up on the 2nd tier guys. They could hold onto that cap space and make a run at Melo too. Of course, that's less likely than those teams using their space to try to market something to the fans who anticipated LeBron or Wade.

Otherwise, the Pacers do look like they'll be on the short list of teams with space next season, and probably pretty close to the top. The kicker is will we be able to draw FAs that would actually make a difference? Will the likes of Granger, Hibbert, and maybe Hans, George, or Farmar(hopefully) be enough to entice Melo or whoever Bird targets? I'd like to think so, but am I putting too much value on those guys because I'm a homer?

Like Anthem said, trading our contracts and some filler is probably a more effective, more reliable route than hoping we can win a FA race.

--pizza

xBulletproof
07-04-2010, 09:55 AM
I agree, if we wait we are more likley to end up overpaying like Detroit. Charlie V. and Ben Gordon yuck!:eek:

That highly depends on the new CBA. With the new CBA, we'll be like free agent guinea pigs. We could walk away with some serious steals because the new system is in place and nobody knows what to do with it, or we could end up screwed because we overspend in the new system that nobody knows what to expect from.

As far as the original post, I'm with all of it, honestly. Even playing Ford. I think some peoples hate for Ford blinds them from the fact that the guy played very good defense last season when he was on the floor. It's just too bad his efforts on offense were like watching a car crash. However if he can convince a team he would make a very good defensive backup coming off the bench for a playoff team, he suddenly has more than expiring contract value in a trade. Good for us.

Doug
07-04-2010, 10:22 AM
I pretty much agree. While it would have been nice to make the playoffs - or outright tank - I think we are generally 'on plan'. I also think that we could have done a slightly better job at developing the players, but they do seem to mostly be coming along.

It seems almost certain that JOB will be gone after this year, so everyone* should be happy then.



*Not valid in Delaware, Canada, and the Maldives. Tax not included.

vnzla81
07-04-2010, 11:03 AM
no is not working

31FAN
07-04-2010, 11:23 AM
I think the Pacers intent for a few years now is to save money. That is why they won't make a trade that brings a big contract back like Okafor. We will never attract Melo, Durant or anyone near their stature. Prepare yourself now for disappointment. TPTB will claim to pursue top flight players via trade and free agency when their goal is to cut costs and assemble the best low cost tram they can. Nothing significant is going to happen until team's financial situation improves drastically.

BigRik
07-04-2010, 11:42 AM
It looks to me like the plan is to let the expirings contracts just leave, not so we have caproom to sign free agents, but to have caproom to be a facilitator in trades - where we pick up nice free stuff in exchange for taking on a player.

Hicks
07-04-2010, 12:31 PM
It looks to me like the plan is to let the expirings contracts just leave, not so we have caproom to sign free agents, but to have caproom to be a facilitator in trades - where we pick up nice free stuff in exchange for taking on a player.

If we don't trade them before next summer, this is how I hope we use our cap room.

Swish
07-05-2010, 12:10 AM
Well, Bird is still employed, so yeah, it seems to be working out for him.

pwee31
07-05-2010, 12:33 AM
TBD