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canyoufeelit
08-05-2004, 07:22 PM
http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20588

Let the Peja for Ron circlejerk begin! :laugh:

canyoufeelit
08-05-2004, 07:30 PM
No it wasn't. AP just broke this. He was "unhappy" but there was no official word. Well, here it is...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-kings-stojakovictrade&prov=ap&type=lgns


Stojakovic said Thursday he told Kings general manager Geoff Petrie he wants to be traded from the only NBA team he has played for.

``I think the change would be good for the team and for myself,'' Stojakovic told The Associated Press in a telephone interview. ``That's the only explanation you're going to get from me.''

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Petrie did not immediately return a call seeking comment.

Stojakovic, a three-time All-Star and the NBA's second-leading scorer last season, has been with the Kings since entering the league in 1998. He was upset that the Kings lost countryman Vlade Divac to the Los Angeles Lakers as a free agent and feels it's time to move on.

The Kings were eliminated in the second round of the playoffs last season, losing in seven games to the Minnesota Timberwolves.

``You could see this year, late in the year, we didn't have good chemistry and didn't play good basketball,'' Stojakovic said. ``I just think that the team had their chances, and opportunities are closing, and the team needs new players.

``I'm probably one of the easiest players to trade, and I'm willing to go.''

Hicks
08-05-2004, 07:31 PM
:eyebrow:

Kegboy
08-05-2004, 07:36 PM
Well, Vince just announced he wants to be traded, just switch them for each other. :p

Hicks
08-05-2004, 07:56 PM
Well, Vince just announced he wants to be traded, just switch them for each other. :p

Difference is, Peja makes just under 7mm. Vince makes over 12mm. The Kings let Vlade go for budget reasons. You really think they'd give up Peja plus another 5mm in contracts just to get Vince? I don't.

Of course, Ron only makes 5.8mm, and would actually lower their team salary.... (You could trade them straight up if the Pacers add some cash to the deal)

MSA2CF
08-05-2004, 08:05 PM
The Maloofs have plenty of money. They own casinos so I'm sure they can afford an extra few million. :p
And the Kings don't necessarily have to trade him just because he wants to be.

Kegboy
08-05-2004, 08:05 PM
Difference is, Peja makes just under 7mm. Vince makes over 12mm.

Details, details. :rolleyes:


You really think they'd give up Peja plus another 5mm in contracts just to get Vince? I don't.

I know I'm higher on VC than most people, but hell yes! Can you imagine him in a Princeton offense? Plus, he wouldn't have to be "the man", either. Also, he gets knocked for all his injuries, but in Sacramento, that'd make him fit right in. :laugh:


Of course, Ron only makes 5.8mm, and would actually lower their team salary.... (You could trade them straight up if the Pacers add some cash to the deal)

Eh, no thanks.

Hicks
08-05-2004, 08:14 PM
I see I'm talking to someone that thinks money doesn't enter into it, and someone who still thnks Vince is better than Ron. I'll just stop now.

Kegboy
08-05-2004, 08:22 PM
I see I'm talking to someone that thinks money doesn't enter into it, and someone who still thnks Vince is better than Ron. I'll just stop now.

Was that directed towards me?

a) I was joking about the money. Perhaps I should have thrown in a :p after the :rolleyes:.

b) Where do you get me saying that Vince is better than Ron??? I said that I'd rather have Vince than Peja and Ron than Peja. Logic dictates I don't think much of Peja, which is sad considering his ppg and fg%.

DrBadd01
08-05-2004, 08:25 PM
Do you think there is any way we could trade for Peja with out giving up Ron? For Example, Something like Bender, Pollard, and a pick for Peja. It would work Salary wise, and it would give us a excellent shooter.

I guess the question is would the Kings even buy into such a trade? I'm not too sure if they would, then again you never know.

Hicks
08-05-2004, 08:27 PM
I see I'm talking to someone that thinks money doesn't enter into it, and someone who still thnks Vince is better than Ron. I'll just stop now.

Was that directed towards me?

a) I was joking about the money. Perhaps I should have thrown in a :p after the :rolleyes:.

Ah, my mistake.


b) Where do you get me saying that Vince is better than Ron??? I said that I'd rather have Vince than Peja and Ron than Peja. Logic dictates I don't think much of Peja, which is sad considering his ppg and fg%.

OK

Hicks
08-05-2004, 08:27 PM
Do you think there is any way we could trade for Peja with out giving up Ron? For Example, Something like Bender, Pollard, and a pick for Peja. It would work Salary wise, and it would give us a excellent shooter.

I guess the question is would the Kings even buy into such a trade? I'm not too sure if they would, then again you never know.

No

bulletproof
08-05-2004, 10:23 PM
Goodbye Ron, hello Peja.

If this doesn't happen, I will be very, very surprised. It would only be because the Kings don't want Ron.

MSA2CF
08-05-2004, 10:34 PM
Goodbye Ron, hello Peja.

If this doesn't happen, I will be very, very surprised. It would only be because the Kings don't want Ron.


Wow, in one foul swoop the whole Pacers' team philosophy would have changed. :shakehead:

Snickers
08-05-2004, 10:36 PM
Goodbye Ron, hello Peja.

If this doesn't happen, I will be very, very surprised. It would only be because the Kings don't want Ron.


Wow, in one foul swoop the whole Pacers' team philosophy would have changed. :shakehead:

The philosophy doesn't change, the players executing the philosophy change. Won't be as great a defensive team, but we'd still be a defense-first team.

MSA2CF
08-05-2004, 10:41 PM
The philosophy doesn't change, the players executing the philosophy change. Won't be as great a defensive team, but we'd still be a defense-first team.

I'd have to disagree with that. I believe Ron is the biggest part of the team's defense. If he's gone, I see a shift in the team philosophy.

Hicks
08-05-2004, 10:46 PM
The philosophy doesn't change, the players executing the philosophy change. Won't be as great a defensive team, but we'd still be a defense-first team.

Exactly. Rick, Mike, and Kevin will still preach defense first every day and twice on Sundays.

Anthem
08-05-2004, 11:45 PM
They may preach it, but I'm not sure how much you'll see from Peja.

Ron for Peja is a downgrade.

bulletproof
08-06-2004, 12:36 AM
In your humble opinion.

Arcadian
08-06-2004, 01:19 AM
Our defense will be built around JO. Team defense is never built around one swingman. If we are going to compare him to the KG's and Duncan's of the league we better believe that he can do it. Jackson will step up as our stopper on D. Not that he'll be as good. But we will have someone.

What was the quote Bird made about Peja this Spring? I can't remember it.

Lord Helmet
08-06-2004, 01:22 AM
I dunno if I would do a Ron for Peja.Yea 27 sum ppg is real good but does Peja play any D?I like Peja but didn't we address our shooting problem with SJax?

Mr. Pink
08-06-2004, 01:23 AM
You guys really don't know that much about Peja..do ya?

I d k about you guys, but when he wasn't helping with the scoring load in the playoffs, he was making HUGE defensive stops and getting rebounds.

You guys are stero-typing him because he is a Euro Player and they are score FIRST and defend LATER.

Peja isn't like that anymore. You guys will be surprised if he got traded here.

skyfire
08-06-2004, 01:26 AM
Hmmm, I really dont wanna see Ron traded, but if it had to happen then I think I could live with Peja based upon our current team. It would take us from one of the worst outside shooting teams to one of the best in 2 trades. SJax could play SF if Peja was getting beat on defense consistantly. It would limit our low post scoring options to...JO, I wonder how well Rick's system would handle it...:confused:

Hicks
08-06-2004, 01:30 AM
Rick's system will be taylored to the personnel.

And thank you for the good report on Peja, sactolover.

I think we'll be at worst as good with this trade. Reason being is our team defense will still be strong (just not as strong), but our offense improves considerably, not to mention our shooting %.

Mr. Pink
08-06-2004, 01:34 AM
Exactly what Hicks said...

Just the only thing you gotta worry about with Peja...is his scoring during the playoffs.

Hicks
08-06-2004, 01:35 AM
Exactly. And I for one expect it not to be a big issue here because of the way we play. He won't have to score as much for us to win as he did for the Kings to win, and I think after a season playing playoff-style basketball all year, he'll be more adapted to the actual playoffs, and he'll do a bit better.

Pig Nash
08-06-2004, 01:36 AM
I wouldn't mind that trade but i'd rather keep ron.

Hicks
08-06-2004, 01:38 AM
Tinsley/Johnson/Gill
Jackson/Miller/Jones
Stojakovic/Bender/J.Jones
O'Neal/Croshere
Foster/Pollard/Harrison

Under Carlisle, Brown, and O'Neill

Looks like a championship-level team to me.

Pig Nash
08-06-2004, 01:39 AM
I feel the same way with ron substituted for Peja. and i like him better. Plus i think the defense is better with ron still here. I don't like trading defense for more offense. Seems backwards.

Plus, i don't think Sacto would do this.

Hicks
08-06-2004, 01:42 AM
It makes sense for Sacto. Ron is actually cheaper than Peja, and adds the defense and toughness they need.

We're trading Ron because of his off-court problems. Make no mistake. Even a moron GM wouldn't trade an 18ppg, DPOY, All-Star unless there's was a damn good reason. Let alone Donnie Walsh and Larry Bird. If they want him gone, it's for good reasons. So to trade a problem for a 3 time all-star like Peja, let's just say I'll take it.

Anthem
08-06-2004, 02:00 AM
If Ron's such a terrible citizen, why would Sacto want him?

On this team, Ron's an 18ppg scorer. Peja's maybe a 22ppg scorer. Is losing your DPOY worth gaining 4ppg on offense? Not to me.

If we trade Ron for "character" issues, then we trade him for character issues. It's not for basketball reasons.

Sacto gets the better basketball player in this trade.

Hicks
08-06-2004, 02:11 AM
They'll want him because most of Ron's problems aren't well-known. All they have to say is they're trading him because he doesn't get along with JO (whether it's true or not), and they have their story.

Arcadian
08-06-2004, 02:17 AM
Shh, Hicks. The Maloof bros might read this forum and find out the truth.

Hicks
08-06-2004, 02:18 AM
Shh, Hicks. The Maloof bros might read this forum and find out the truth.

What do I know. I'm just some dumb fan on the internet. ;)

Lord Helmet
08-06-2004, 03:50 AM
If Ron's such a terrible citizen, why would Sacto want him?

On this team, Ron's an 18ppg scorer. Peja's maybe a 22ppg scorer. Is losing your DPOY worth gaining 4ppg on offense? Not to me.

If we trade Ron for "character" issues, then we trade him for character issues. It's not for basketball reasons.

Sacto gets the better basketball player in this trade.

I agree.

TheSauceMaster
08-06-2004, 04:54 AM
Ground Control:Earth to Peja , come in Peja

Peja: Go Ahead Ground Control

Ground Control: The Playoffs Have Started. , Please try to Score.

Peja: Sorry Gorund Control your fuzzy and breaking up , didn't recieve last transmission.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

able
08-06-2004, 06:34 AM
Whether Peja dissapeared in the playoffs or not is not really proven by his stats, things change on a team's strategy as well during that time of year.
Would I trade him for Ron?

Now there's a very difficult question.
Ron is a very talented young man with some downside in that he requires a lot of attention from the front office, well that is what they are paid for anyway so i personally don't care. There are more players on this team and other teams that require (to) much attention.

Team chemistry, often used to defer from Ron, saying he might damage that, something i very seriously doubt, after all he seemed to get on quite well with JO among others, his irritation over the play of AJ and perhaps Al could well be justified, his reaction one to leave desire, but at his age, that is something he will learn.
So team chemistry is undoubtedly important, at least that much we agree upon.
Ron is giving management a hard time, caused by his hatred of losing, or players not showing, so what does management do besides considering to trade Ron, they go out and get themselves another "i do not take losing to well" player in SJax. A guy who said on his introduction that he would not be nice in a locker room if they would lose.
In all this people seem to forget the lack of "dissapointment" comments from JO on Al's leaving, I have read none and add to that JO's comment in the press conference after the final ECF match: This is my team, I will have to find a way to get it done. Mark the "my team" especially in the context of Al's desires (spoken out clearly at the intro in Atl) and the lack of comment after Al was traded, it falls in to place.

So I conclude that Al especially was not a "hot" item in the locker room.
Now we are looking at trading Ron for Peja.
As a player, I would love to see Peja play for the Pacers, woudl i trade him for Ron, I think not, age, attitude and such would not sway me either way, though Ron would be in the lead somewhat.
Chemistry however is the "deciding" factor.
Now, let's get back to the "my team" part of our franchise player JO. only 1 in 4 players in the entire league to produce 4 consecutive 20-10 seasons, yes only 4 did that, TD, KG, and the O'Neals.
Nice company to be in.

Do we really think it is all that good for chemistry to have Peja hoisting up a lot of shots? do we even want to go there?
Face the truth, Sjax, Peja on one team? how many balls will end up in the low post? What would it do for JO's role on this team?
Does anyone think JO would want to play second fiddle to either of those guys? would Peja be capable of playing second or third (ridiculous thought that 3d) fiddle?
With SJax being a shooter, and Reggie ahead of him this season as the all time shooter and added to that the current most pure shooter in the NBA, aren't we the least bit worried that we might turn into the mavs of the east?
Aren't we worried that JO would really become unhappy?

Well as usual i nay care what management thinks or says (i've long since given up the idea they would tell us antyhing true anyway) but I for one predict some serious problems on this team should that trade go down, as "handsome" as it looks, if we do then we will have to get rid of SJax again, or he will be a negative lockerroom influence since he will not get his shots or be allowed to take them.

So as much as I like Peja I would not do this trade for the same reasons others will say we should do it.
I say; let management hire a team of people to take care of Ron, add a million to his salary in your mind and he still be a steal so at minimum that is what you can spend to keep him happy and get the bloody season started! I'm getting sick and tired of the offseason already

marcd
08-06-2004, 09:04 AM
I concur with what Able said...finally a voice of reason in the offseason of discontent by the fans on this forum.

The only thing I find fault in is the "would Peja play second or third fiddle to JO", that is the same dilema we have with Ron. He certainly hoisted up his fair share of ill advised shots last year. And what will JO do if Sjax and Ron start hoisting up shots?

To find the answers to those questions you only need look as far as the bench. That is where the answer is and where either of the second or third fiddles will end up if they don't feed the post first! Do we really think that the coaching staff will stand for any of those three (Peja, Ron or Sjax) not adhereing to the offensive philosophy of this team?

MarcD

Fool
08-06-2004, 09:25 AM
If the Pacers could play an inside out game with Peja and Jackson on the perimeter, that would be one helluva good game. Peja and Jackson would make the shots but O'Neal would be even more alone down low. I don't think there would be enough inside threat to collapse the perimeter D (though Peja and Jackson might not need the openings).

There seems to be a lot of "this team would be just as good defensively w/o Ron" going in this thread. Last I knew Peja wasn't on any DPOY ballots and saying that the team wouldn't suffer defensively w/o Ron doesn't say much for the DPOY.

blanket
08-06-2004, 10:16 AM
http://www.sacbee.com/content/sports/basketball/kings/story/10257600p-11177870c.html

"We know he's got two years left on his contract," said Bauman, who also is in Serbia-Montenegro, of Stojakovic. "But I believe the (Indiana) Pacers inquired about something with Peja and (Ron) Artest in June and that was quickly shot down by the Kings."

Maybe now they'll be more likely to make a deal...

sixthman
08-06-2004, 10:24 AM
Did you notice in the article in the Sacramento Bee this morning, Peja's agent says he thinks the Pacers talked to Sactown about an Artest/Stojakovic deal in June without success.

bulletproof
08-06-2004, 10:44 AM
Did you notice in the article in the Sacramento Bee this morning, Peja's agent says he thinks the Pacers talked to Sactown about an Artest/Stojakovic deal in June without success.

Operative word being "thinks."

able
08-06-2004, 10:58 AM
since then however we signed SJax, just to pause for some thought.

Hicks
08-06-2004, 11:06 AM
Having SJax does not make getting Peja a bad thing. It's ridiculous to me to even suggest having two shooters is too many and that it will cause JO to never get shots. That's just dumb to me. We do not have enough good shooters right now. If we had Peja, we would. Getting him does not mean we have too many, it means we have enough.

Last year we tried to play an inside-out game without much of an outside game. Jax gives us some, Jax and Peja gives us plenty. Not too much. Even the idea that we couldn't use Peja well because of STEPHEN JACKSON is laughable. They're different players, and the thing they both do, Peja is much better at.

Getting Peja we give us a terrific inside out punch with he and JO. Jax is the THIRD man on a team with those two, not second.

able
08-06-2004, 11:20 AM
All I'm saying that making SJax 33d option is most likely not so good for team-chemistry.

Please before calling em dumb also take into consideration we still have a certain mr Miller, not a bad shooter himself, F Jones, up and coming shooter, and a couple on the bench that are known for a decent shot, but shown it to little, however, where are the penetrators? Where are the inside players? who is there to help JO ?

thank you

tate
08-06-2004, 11:29 AM
I'm not sure why some people think Jackson is going to help our outside shooting so much. Last year he shot 34% from 3 and that was his best year from there. Unless he somehow starts shooting much better than he ever has he will be tied for the 5th best 3 point shooter on our team. Reg,Bender,Cro,and TINS all shot better % last year and AJ shot about the same. Some people will prolly say well he will have JO to play off of,but he had Duncan in SA and shot worse than he did with Atlanta.

Hicks
08-06-2004, 11:38 AM
All I'm saying that making SJax 33d option is most likely not so good for team-chemistry.

Jackson came in saying he didn't even care if he started or not. I doubt telling him he's 3rd fiddle will disrupts chemistry; he's here because he wants to win another title.


Please before calling em dumb also take into consideration we still have a certain mr Miller, not a bad shooter himself, F Jones, up and coming shooter,

I purposelly didn't mention Reggie because he no longer shoots when it counts; he passes up too many shots now for me to take him seriously as a major out-side threat. You leave him wide open, and sure, he's gonna burn people. But I'm ready for one or two people to start w/ JO that are ready and willing to be a part of the offense, not just trying to defer to someone else, which Reggie does. As for Fred, he's not going to play before Jackson or Reggie, so he's not in the equation this year.


and a couple on the bench that are known for a decent shot, but shown it to little, however, where are the penetrators? Where are the inside players? who is there to help JO ?

AJ and Cro can do it, but neither are in the role of being asked to do it as a major part of the offense. Peja and Jax would be. That's the difference. Their job will BE to take those shots. The rest are guys that simply have the shot to spread the floor and hit them when they're open. But their roles are to do different things.

Penetrating players is something we've never had much of. Jackson should be able to give us some. We still don't have a lot, but like I said we never have. Tinsley sometimes will penetrate a defense, but that's not something to rely on consistently. Jackson will have to be it.

In the meantime, you give the ball to JO like normal, and have Peja and Stephen waiting on opposite sides of the court looking for an open 3 ball if JO gets crowded. That's a GOOD thing.

The bottom line for me is, I think it's crazy that some of you think having 3 capable scorers is a bad thing. That is crazy. The more guys who are capable of scoring the ball, especially when your team defense is good or more, the BETTER things are. Just because we basically relied on JO and Ron to score our points last year doesn't mean that's how it should or has to be. If we can have 3 guys start to give us points, GOOD.



thank you


You're quite welcome. :D

MSA2CF
08-06-2004, 12:03 PM
I wouldn't appease Peja's wishes if I were the Kings owner.

ChicagoJ
08-06-2004, 12:31 PM
Yeah, its always good to force an unhappy guy to stay in an unhappy situation. He'll *never* pout, cause any problems or be a disruption when you force him to honor his contract just to prove a point.

MSA2CF
08-06-2004, 12:50 PM
I didn't say that. You did.

All I'm saying is I would not trade him.

Hicks
08-06-2004, 12:50 PM
He's asked you for a trade, and you don't? Have fun with THAT chemistry next season.

bulletproof
08-06-2004, 01:02 PM
Not only asked for a trade, but did so publicly versus privately. Went to the press before he went to management. I think that pretty much says how he feels about the Kings right now.

Hicks
08-06-2004, 01:26 PM
They have to pay him whether he sits on the bench or not. Your idea just gives him the money for NOT playing.

They're not gonna waste the money if they can be paying someone who WILL play in return.

MSA2CF
08-06-2004, 02:07 PM
Hicks, do you feel the Pacers should not have traded Antonio Davis?

Granville
08-06-2004, 02:07 PM
I like Ron's game, and I certainly understand and respect the views of anyone who very much wants to keep him. However, for some reason--and I really can't put my finger on it--I would like to see him traded.

That said, I would be fine with getting Peja back for him. However, I think I would rather have Marion, as he is a better rebounder.

ChicagoJ
08-06-2004, 02:33 PM
Here's your choice, MSA2CF. Keep him and re-build the team the way he wants, or keep the rest of the team and trade him. Otherwise, you run the risk of horrible chemistry.

As for AD, the Pacers had the same two choices, trade DD or Rik to make room for AD as a starter, or trade AD. The third choice, not trading him, was much, much riskier.

PacerMan and Hicks bring up an interesting point. I know Peja's contract is guaranteed. But I'm pretty sure he has to report to the team to be paid. If he no-shows for training camp, he can be fined. If he no-shows for the regular season, he'd be placed on the suspended list and I'm pretty sure they could refuse to pay him until he reports. He'll file a grievance with the union, and they'll publicly back him and privately tell him, "You signed a contract. If you want your money, then report." An arbitrator would eventually take some haircut off the fines and lost pay when he returns to the team, and then you're right back at scenario three: disgruntled player - potential lockerroom disruption - making $10 million.

And that could all be avoided by trading him for someone that could possibly make the Kings better, or at least happier.

Damn, we've been doing way too much litigation support at work. I've got to quit thinking that way - no wonder I've got an ulcer and it isn't even the playoffs. :blush:

Hicks
08-06-2004, 03:19 PM
Hicks, do you feel the Pacers should not have traded Antonio Davis?

I really don't have a strong opinion either way on it. I liked Tony, but he wanted out. You don't want to keep a sulking player on a team trying to win. I liked that we got the #5 pick. And I do like Bender, but in hindsight there were much better choices than him (unless he changes this year).

Hicks
08-06-2004, 03:23 PM
Oh, and before there's any more confusion on salaries:

Ron Artest will earn $5,850,000 this season.
Peja Stojakovic will earn $6,975,000 this season.

Notice if we do this, the Kings not only get Ron, but SAVE money. Don't tell me they won't do it. Especially with Peja wanting out.

The salaries don't quite get within 15%, but they are very close, and you could make it work by adding some cash to the deal. So yeah, basically you can trade them straight up.

RimBender
08-06-2004, 03:24 PM
PEJA!? I hope I never see him in a Pacer's uniform. IMO straight offense and not a dash of anything else. I don't like his game at all. I wouldnt trade ANYONE for him.

ChicagoJ
08-06-2004, 03:29 PM
http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/question_040806.html

Q. Peja Stojakovic just requested a trade from the Kings. I had heard a rumor that the Pacers may be considering a trade for Peja, maybe (Ron) Artest straight-up. I had also heard that (Larry) Bird loves Peja, and would love to have him in blue and gold. Do you think the Pacers would sacrifice Artest's defensive game in order to gain another perimeter scoring threat in Peja? (From Andy in Elwood, IN)

A. Stojakovic has indeed asked for a trade, but it doesn’t appear he’s going to get one. Kings co-owner Joe Maloof told ESPN the team has “absolutely no intention and no plan to trade him. … I am confident what we can work this out as a family.” Given the fact Stojakovic is one of the best pure shooters in the game and, at age 27, still in the prime of his career, he would be hugely appealing to most any team, including the Pacers. As has been demonstrated by Team USA in its pre-Olympic exhibitions, perimeter shooting is a lost art in the NBA and thus is becoming an increasingly valuable skill. The Sacramento Bee, quoting Stojakovic’s agent (David Bauman), reported the Pacers had offered Artest in June but were “quickly shot down” by the Kings. That doesn’t make it sound like the chances of a deal are promising. And based on published reports of their salaries, a one-for-one deal couldn’t be made. For the moment, it appears to be talk show fodder, but not much more.

Cactus Jax
08-06-2004, 03:31 PM
How about Artest, Pollard, and Fred Jones for Peja, and Doug Christie? It works on RealGM, and Christie helps cure the loss of Artest a little bit on defense, plus Pollard gets to go back to Sacto where he was actually pretty good.

ROCislandWarrior
08-06-2004, 03:43 PM
:disturbed:

Assuming we trade Ron for Peja

Please answer these questions:

Who is going to guard Paul Pierce?
Who is going to guard Michael Redd?
Who is going to guard (or help on atleast) Dwayne Wade?
Who is going to guard Kobe?
Who is going to guard Tmac?
Who is going to guard ...

Hicks
08-06-2004, 03:45 PM
*sigh* Conrad's just regurgitating what's already been said here.

1) If they did ask about Peja in June, that was long before he asked for a trade

2) Just because they owners say they don't want to trade him, doesn't mean they might not be forced to. The player says he wants out. There's usually no coming back.

Hicks
08-06-2004, 03:46 PM
:disturbed:

Assuming we trade Ron for Peja

Please answer these questions:

Who is going to guard Paul Pierce?
Who is going to guard Michael Redd?
Who is going to guard (or help on atleast) Dwayne Wade?
Who is going to guard Kobe?
Who is going to guard Tmac?
Who is going to guard ...

Jackson and Freddie, I'd imagine.

Aw Heck
08-06-2004, 03:52 PM
I would not do this trade (unless Ron's behind-the-scenes antics are really that bad), because. . .

-From a team standpoint, it's a wash. It greatly improves the offense, but greatly diminishes the defense. Peja's offensive contributions balance out with Ron's defensive contributions. So IMO, the Pacers don't get better.

-The Pacers get smaller. If Al Harrington was still here, I would definitely do the trade, because at least we'd have one other offensive post option. If Ron's gone, JO is the sole offensive post player. With Ron and Al gone, the Pacers not only lose two of their better defenders, but also two players that could outmuscle their defenders on offense. I can just imagine the Pacers getting outmuscled constantly by teams with stronger players.

-Peja's known disappearing acts in the playoffs. Ron never disappeared in this year's playoffs. Prince defending him really hurt his offense, but his defense was still there.

Ron is just better for the Pacers right now than Peja is. I think when Al went, so did the idea of trading Artest. I also like that we could depend on Ron to defend the opposing team's offensive very well. Like a wise man once said...

DON'T TRADE RON.

Granville
08-06-2004, 03:52 PM
As I said earlier, I respect anyone who thinks highly of Ron's game and wants to keep him. But I do get a little lost when it is suggested that if he is not on the team we won't be able to guard anybody.

No league champion has ever had Ron Artest on their team. They managed to find a way to guard people well enough to win.

ROCislandWarrior
08-06-2004, 04:05 PM
:disturbed:

Assuming we trade Ron for Peja

Please answer these questions:

Who is going to guard Paul Pierce?
Who is going to guard Michael Redd?
Who is going to guard (or help on atleast) Dwayne Wade?
Who is going to guard Kobe?
Who is going to guard Tmac?
Who is going to guard ...

Jackson and Freddie, I'd imagine.

So Hicks (and everyone else for that matter), do you believe that the Pacers would be better off changing their style of play?

Trading Artest is going to have a serious effect on how this team plays defense. But by getting Peja and Sjax it is also going to affect how we play offense too.

We would still be good defensively with Jones (but where would he fit in unless Reggie goes to the back of the line) on the perim. and O'neal down low. Not to mention Fosters superb Defensive effort. We would no longer be trying to "out defense" the Pistons (which we were not going to do anyway). We would be trying to beat them with a versitale offense that can kill you Inside and Out.

I am still trying to make up my mind.

but I guess the important thing is...if artest is going to be traded, it has already been decided long ago by Managment that is what is needed. Then Peja might be the perfect replacement because he along with Sjax/Reggie/Jones/Bender/Croshere and even Tinsley to some degree gives us a team that can light it up from the arc.


A team like that would be a team Larry would love. Kinda reminds me of Jackson/Reggie/Mullin/Perkins.;)

Oh...one big difference..this team would have a player unlike any player from the Larry Bird coached teams...Jermaine O'Neal.

Hicks
08-06-2004, 04:18 PM
I think we will always carry the same attitude on defense as long as this coaching staff is here. We will play good team defense. So as long as that is still there (it just won't be as good without Ron, but I still feel it will be pretty damn good), plus having a dynamic offensive attack with multiple options, I have to feel good about it.

Granville
08-06-2004, 04:29 PM
I think we will always carry the same attitude on defense as long as this coaching staff is here. We will play good team defense. So as long as that is still there (it just won't be as good without Ron, but I still feel it will be pretty damn good), plus having a dynamic offensive attack with multiple options, I have to feel good about it.


Well said.

Kegboy
08-06-2004, 04:40 PM
If Al Harrington were still here, I would definitely do the trade

Ditto.

As for the change to the defensive makeup, if we traded Ron for, at best, a less than average defensive player, right after losing Al, I think Rick's head might explode. :yikes:

Actually, that'd be kinda cool to see. Then Mike could be our coach. :cool: :sarcasm:

Granville
08-06-2004, 05:04 PM
Around the Horn has a Peja tab coming up, not that they will enlighten us at all.

Mourning
08-06-2004, 05:14 PM
I already envision Prince killing "Peewee" Stojakovic offensive game in the 2nd round next year. This trade would really make sense ... from a Pistons standpoint.

Yeah, sure we would let Freddie guard T-mac, Pierce and Kobe, right! How many minutes per game might that be? And ... Freddie is SMALL, too small IMO to guard those taller star guards. Also what happens if JO goes down with an injury for lets say a time longer than 2 weeks? What team philosophy do we adapt to than? Who will be intimadating our opponents than? Lets just shoot the hell out of our opponents? By doing this we SEVERELY would limit our tactical flexibility. I could live with Marion (but that :mad:- salary of his is a major :mad:) not with Peja, he's just too one-dimensional and makes our team TOO small, where it already wasn't that big and we lost Al in the meantime, so we are like getting tiny here. I predict a Pistons 4-1 win in next years play-offs IF we do this trade.

Also I feel this IS Benders make or brake year. He better perform and IF he does we have another outside threat and we wouldnt need Peja at all if we dont want to become the Mavs in the east.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Granville
08-06-2004, 05:16 PM
It was Buy or Sell on whether the Kings should trade Peja...

Jay Mariotti--Selling...Maloofs say they aren't trading him, he won't be a negative influence, etc.

Woody Paige--Buying... Kings window for winning has slammed shut, they need a new direction, etc.

Bill Plaschke--Selling...Kings still have chance to win, should trade Chris Webber, not Peja, etc.

Kevin Blackistone--Selling...Window still open for Kings now that Shaq is gone, etc.

Like I said, nothing enlightening.

Pig Nash
08-06-2004, 05:17 PM
psst. Peja is 6'10"

Mourning
08-06-2004, 05:45 PM
psst. Peja is 6'10"

Psst. Wake me up when Peja does go inside once or twice a game.

MSA2CF
08-06-2004, 06:20 PM
Hicks, do you feel the Pacers should not have traded Antonio Davis?

I really don't have a strong opinion either way on it. I liked Tony, but he wanted out. You don't want to keep a sulking player on a team trying to win. I liked that we got the #5 pick. And I do like Bender, but in hindsight there were much better choices than him (unless he changes this year).

I know I had a response to this waiting for after you responded, but I cannot think for the life of me what I wanted to say. When I remember, I'll post it.

Jay, as the owner, and Peja as the player, I expect he will do what I want him to do. He signed a contract and I'd expect him to live up to it. That's pretty much the way I look at things in sports leagues. A contract is a contract is a contract.

Pig Nash
08-06-2004, 06:20 PM
psst. i was just saying. :woozy:

MSA2CF
08-06-2004, 06:59 PM
I'm not an owner, but if I were, that's what I would expect and hold all of my players to. They signed a contract and if they have any problems, I'm sure they can be resolved without a trade.

Hicks
08-06-2004, 07:34 PM
psst. Peja is 6'10"

Psst. Wake me up when Peja does go inside once or twice a game.



Psst. Wake me up when we need him to with JO in the paint.

Hicks
08-06-2004, 08:04 PM
Psst. I'm not sure.

MSA2CF
08-06-2004, 09:22 PM
I WOULD HAVE TO AGREE WITH ALL THOSE WHO SAY RON ARTEST SHOULD NOT BE TRADED!

Hicks
08-06-2004, 09:28 PM
I WOULD HAVE TO AGREE WITH ALL THOSE WHO SAY RON ARTEST SHOULD NOT BE TRADED!


REALLY I HAD NOT FIGURED THAT OUT THE FIRST SEVERAL TIMES

:D

MSA2CF
08-06-2004, 09:36 PM
:flirt:

Snickers
08-06-2004, 10:53 PM
Psst. Did I miss the whole "psst" thing?

SycamoreKen
08-07-2004, 12:01 AM
Psst. Did anyone see the interview with Vlade at halftime during the game tonight? He was like :spitout: when Walton asked him about Peja demanding to be traded. Vlade said that he had talked to Peja earlier and he had told him nothing about it. Vlade then said, "I know he won't be coming to the Lakers!"

wintermute
08-07-2004, 12:46 AM
psst. sorry, just didn't want to be left out :p

hey, anyone ever wonder whether peja could be an off-court distraction?

after all, we don't really know why peja wants out of sacto. what if he wants to be the man, and can't stand c-webb hogging the limelight anymore? what if he had demanded that webber be traded, and instead they traded his good pal vlade instead? what if he insists on playing with fellow serbians? what if when he gets here, he demands for example that j.o. be traded for darko? :devil:

admittedly, this scenario is all rather far-fetched. just something to think about :p

Kegboy
08-07-2004, 01:14 AM
he demands for example that j.o. be traded for darko?

Oh, come on. You know we could never get Darko. Stop getting people's hopes up.

:tongue:

Mourning
08-07-2004, 04:38 AM
psst. Peja is 6'10"

Psst. Wake me up when Peja does go inside once or twice a game.



Psst. Wake me up when we need him to with JO in the paint.

WAKE UP! You are dreaming IF you think JO alone is enough in the paint. Ever thought why he has been taking more and more jumpshots the last year? Also thought JO might be getting more room in the paint if there's a consistent threat moving into the paint? What happens IF we have a bad shooting night? We had enough of those last year, we could ALWAYS count on our superior D to keep us in the game. Also don't assume we wont have terrible shooting nights or only very occasionally, because we have better shooters now. Other teams will adept and basically a short range shot has more chance than a long range shot as we all know, account the FTs as a major bonus here.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Hicks
08-07-2004, 11:37 AM
WAKE UP! You are dreaming IF you think JO alone is enough in the paint.

Well, losing Ron doesn't give JO MORE attention from the other team's D. JO got more attention because Brad's gone. Swapping Ron with Peja won't change that one way or the other.

Also, look at the Spurs, who if we make this trade we look even more like in an odd way. Tim Duncan scores in the paint, everyone else (I guess I'll throw a bone at Rasho, but not much) shoots from the outside. Poor Timmy and his 2 rings. I know David was there for those, but all the same they had a very good team last year that lost because they couldn't shoot ENOUGH, and lost a heartbreaker in 0.4 to Derek freakin' Fisher lol.

I don't think I've made my point very well above, so I'll just say that giving JO the ball in the paint, and surrounding him with Peja and Jackson is a good thing, not a bad one.

sixthman
08-07-2004, 11:49 AM
I don't know if the Pacers win any more ball games than they did last year, but the team should be much more fun to watch were Peja and S-Jax on the court.

I'm wondering how that team does matching up against the Pistons. Are we better?

Kegboy
08-07-2004, 11:56 AM
I'm surprised KStat hasn't weighed in yet. If he comes in bad mouthing the trade, then we know it's a good deal. ;)

Hicks
08-07-2004, 11:58 AM
I don't know if the Pacers win any more ball games than they did last year, but the team should be much more fun to watch were Peja and S-Jax on the court.

I'm wondering how that team does matching up against the Pistons. Are we better?

Well, against the Pistons I can't imagine Peja being WORSE than Ron was.

Ron couldn't stop Rip, and neither will Peja. Ron's offense horrendous. I think since Peja's about stroking the 3-ball, he'll at least look somewhat better than Ron did, because Ron just wasn't getting anything in the paint, and that only left his jumpshot, which wasn't good. Peja's is good.

Hicks
08-07-2004, 12:01 PM
I'm surprised KStat hasn't weighed in yet. If he comes in bad mouthing the trade, then we know it's a good deal. ;)

And if he says it's a good deal, I can just keep telling myself that too! Woo hoo, win-win for Hicks! :happydance: :yes:

:D :laugh:

Anthem
08-07-2004, 12:41 PM
Well, against the Pistons I can't imagine Peja being WORSE than Ron was.

The Pistons are the worst matchup for Ron in the NBA. They don't have a high-scoring swingman, they have a speedy 2-guard. The only other comparable matchup was Iverson, and even then Artest could play against Big Puppy.

So far, Artest has played his best basketball when there's somebody for him to guard. It keeps his game balanced. Tayshaun wasn't much of a scoring threat.

I expect Artest to improve that, by the way. It's part of his on-court development, which even you have said continues to improve drastically.

Kegboy
08-07-2004, 01:39 PM
I'm surprised KStat hasn't weighed in yet. If he comes in bad mouthing the trade, then we know it's a good deal. ;)

And if he says it's a good deal, I can just keep telling myself that too! Woo hoo, win-win for Hicks! :happydance: :yes:

:D :laugh:

:chuckle:

Snickers
08-07-2004, 01:40 PM
When I first heard of the possibility of getting Peja, I thought back to the old Larry Bird-coached teams.

Smits
Davis
Mullin
Miller
Jackson

I see a lot of parallels with this potential team:

Foster
O'neal
Peja
Jackson
Tinsley

Jamaal Tinsley - Mark Jackson: Very similar styles of play. Tinsley doesn't have all the veteran savvy Jax did, but he's younger and more athletic [can play some D]

Peja Stojakovic - Reggie Miller: You could also compare the old Reggie to Stephen Jackson. But since Peja is the superior shooter and the better overall player, I'll match him with Reg. A huge outside threat that changes the way defenses play us.

Stephen Jackson - Chris Mullin: A very good shooter who makes timely plays. Again, Stephen doesn't have the veteran tricks Mully had, but he's younger and more athletic.

Jeff Foster - Dale Davis: Jeff is nowhere near the physical presence Dale was, but he'll get the rebounds and down-and-dirty points, just like Dale did.

Jermaine O'neal - Rik Smits: The biggest advantage the new team has over the old one. Jermaine is everything we wished Rik could have been in the post, and he can rebound, run the court, and be an all-star in addition.

Then we have Bender [Jalen?], Freddie [Best?] and Croshere off the bench. I would be pretty pleased with that team.

Mourning
08-07-2004, 01:42 PM
Like Peja would get the same numbers that he got in SacTown :rolleyes:.
I dont believe it, so his scoring will go down here to max 22-23 PPG IMO. That is a differential of about 4 PPG with Ron beying 3 years younger and about to enter his prime not too mention the best perimeter defender in the league.

Oh and since you, Hicks, like to mention some of the short-comings of Ron in ONE play-offs series in ONE post season, would you be so kind to also list the MULTIPLE number of play-off series in MULTIPLE years in which Peja aka "Mr. Perfect" has dissappeared or played dreadfully? It would seem a little more balanced if you would when you point to Artests short-comings (which certainly exist).

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Mourning
08-07-2004, 01:46 PM
When I first heard of the possibility of getting Peja, I thought back to the old Larry Bird-coached teams.

Smits
Davis
Mullin
Miller
Jackson

I see a lot of parallels with this potential team:

Foster
O'neal
Peja
Jackson
Tinsley

Jamaal Tinsley - Mark Jackson: Very similar styles of play. Tinsley doesn't have all the veteran savvy Jax did, but he's younger and more athletic [can play some D]

Peja Stojakovic - Reggie Miller: You could also compare the old Reggie to Stephen Jackson. But since Peja is the superior shooter and the better overall player, I'll match him with Reg. A huge outside threat that changes the way defenses play us.

Stephen Jackson - Chris Mullin: A very good shooter who makes timely plays. Again, Stephen doesn't have the veteran tricks Mully had, but he's younger and more athletic.

Jeff Foster - Dale Davis: Jeff is nowhere near the physical presence Dale was, but he'll get the rebounds and down-and-dirty points, just like Dale did.

Jermaine O'neal - Rik Smits: The biggest advantage the new team has over the old one. Jermaine is everything we wished Rik could have been in the post, and he can rebound, run the court, and be an all-star in addition.

Then we have Bender [Jalen?], Freddie [Best?] and Croshere off the bench. I would be pretty pleased with that team.

I'm already pleased with this team now. The only thing we need IMO is a lot more rebounding. Also I like that team from the '90s, but its not like they were the perfect example to point too either, only an NBA-Finals appearance not the top price.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Snickers
08-07-2004, 01:53 PM
I'm already pleased with this team now. The only thing we need IMO is a lot more rebounding. Also I like that team from the '90s, but its not like they were the perfect example to point too either, only an NBA-Finals appearance not the top price.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

The only NBA Finals appearance in team history, so I have to believe they were one of the better Pacers teams in recent history. Certainly not perfect, but few teams are.

We could use more rebounding, but rebounds are one of those things you can never have too much of. I thought players who could hit shots, be they perimeter shots, midrange, whatever, at any time were what we needed more of. We had too many games that we lost because of ice-cold shooting, and our defense managed to be just enough to get us by in a number of others.

Stephen Jackson may or may not be the scorer we needed. Ron may or may not develop into that player. I, too, am very pleased with the team as it stands, but whatever happens, I've taken the mindset that it's not up to me. And if Ron is to be traded, Peja is a hell of a player to get in return.

Hicks
08-07-2004, 01:56 PM
Mourning, I can only point to ONE series where Ron stunk because his teams haven't been in as many series as Peja's have. Before this year, it was 2 first-round exits for Ron.

I think for the Spurs and Pistons, this makes us a better team because Ron has no one to shut down on either of their teams, and Peja is a far superior offensive player.

tate
08-07-2004, 02:00 PM
Like Peja would get the same numbers that he got in SacTown :rolleyes:.
I dont believe it, so his scoring will go down here to max 22-23 PPG IMO. That is a differential of about 4 PPG with Ron beying 3 years younger and about to enter his prime not too mention the best perimeter defender in the league.

You cant just look at how many points a player scores without also looking at how many shots he takes to get those points. Even if Peja scored the same as Ron here he would do it in many fewer shots and that would leave more shots for others(like Jackson) to score with. I'm not sure if I like this trade or not, its hard one to call.

Mourning
08-07-2004, 02:07 PM
Like Peja would get the same numbers that he got in SacTown :rolleyes:.
I dont believe it, so his scoring will go down here to max 22-23 PPG IMO. That is a differential of about 4 PPG with Ron beying 3 years younger and about to enter his prime not too mention the best perimeter defender in the league.

You cant just look at how many points a player scores without also looking at how many shots he takes to get those points. Even if Peja scored the same as Ron here he would do it in many fewer shots and that would leave more shots for others(like Jackson) to score with. I'm not sure if I like this trade or not, its hard one to call.



True, I would also like to add ... WHICH system that team plays, because Peja HAD the perfect system for his game. A system pretty alien to what our Pacers play.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Mourning
08-07-2004, 02:10 PM
Mourning, I can only point to ONE series where Ron stunk because his teams haven't been in as many series as Peja's have. Before this year, it was 2 first-round exits for Ron.

I think for the Spurs and Pistons, this makes us a better team because Ron has no one to shut down on either of their teams, and Peja is a far superior offensive player.

Myabe, on the other hand I see Prince in Detroit as a potential Peja-killer and Ginobilli at SA might also be a tough match up. Remember we dont play the same way Sacramento does. And even IF we were to change it to something more like that (which I wouldnt like) than we wont be even close to as good as they were.

The comparison with the Spurs sound nice, but they DID have Robinson as an extra inside and great cutting players. Also they didnt quite reach it this year with only one credible inside player.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Mourning
08-07-2004, 02:13 PM
I'm already pleased with this team now. The only thing we need IMO is a lot more rebounding. Also I like that team from the '90s, but its not like they were the perfect example to point too either, only an NBA-Finals appearance not the top price.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

The only NBA Finals appearance in team history, so I have to believe they were one of the better Pacers teams in recent history. Certainly not perfect, but few teams are.

We could use more rebounding, but rebounds are one of those things you can never have too much of. I thought players who could hit shots, be they perimeter shots, midrange, whatever, at any time were what we needed more of. We had too many games that we lost because of ice-cold shooting, and our defense managed to be just enough to get us by in a number of others.

Stephen Jackson may or may not be the scorer we needed. Ron may or may not develop into that player. I, too, am very pleased with the team as it stands, but whatever happens, I've taken the mindset that it's not up to me. And if Ron is to be traded, Peja is a hell of a player to get in return.



I know what you are saying, and I liked our team a lot too. However, that team was also old when they did reach the finals (indeed the furthest any Indy team so far has gone) and was dismantled at the postseason that followed.
What that team didnt manage though was 61 wins and an NBA-best record at the end of a season.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Mourning
08-07-2004, 02:17 PM
"Mourning, I can only point to ONE series where Ron stunk because his teams haven't been in as many series as Peja's have. Before this year, it was 2 first-round exits for Ron."

Yeah, so:confused: This doesnt exactly point in Peja's direction very favorably, except that the team he has played on was just better. And during the regular he plays GREAT, really, but when the play-offs begin he "stinks" on a regular basis. Ron should atleast get the advantage on not having done that yet, becuase his team didnt get the chance on succesfull multiple play-off series.
Atleast in my opinion.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Hicks
08-07-2004, 02:21 PM
Last year he averaged over 17ppg in the playoffs. If that "stinks", I'll take it.

Hell, his dropped %s were still better than Ron's in the playoffs.

indytoad
08-07-2004, 02:35 PM
Speaking of Prince being a Peja-killer, what do you think this trade does for our matchup with Detroit? On one hand, we'd have more consistent outside threats, which was their one weakness last I checked, but I don't think we'd ever see a rebound.

In the end I still think they'd be able to defend us better than we could defend them.

PS: Anyone else having trouble keeping all these Peja threads straight?

IndyToad
On and on

canyoufeelit
08-07-2004, 03:07 PM
I posted this in another thread, but I don't think Prince can really stop Peja. Peja had one bad game against Det early in the season, but then had a great one - http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=240211008 - with Prince checking him for most of the game. Once again it's Peja's inconsistancy that really "stops" him. But with Peja, Jax, and Reggie on the team, that really opens up the middle for Jermaine to do some damage :cool: And then we can use Jermaine to draw double-teams and let the guys rain threes

Peja is tall enough and has a release that is high enough to negate prince, kind of like how Richard Jefferson is athletic enough

I don't think the defense will suffer too much. Remember, we have this fella by the name of Jermaine O'Neal who is a pretty defender too. Oh yeah, who's our coach again?

Plus, Peja + Jax + Reggie = will we ever be out of games? If there ever was a lineup that could rain down threes and jumpstart the offense, that's the one.

Pig Nash
08-07-2004, 03:11 PM
Last year he averaged over 17ppg in the playoffs. If that "stinks", I'll take it.

Hell, his dropped %s were still better than Ron's in the playoffs.

:nod: