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BringJackBack
06-29-2010, 02:15 PM
Let me get started with saying that Brandon is not a star player. He will not bust out for 30 points on any given night. But in this league you have players that are winners and you have players that are not winners. Players such as Monta Ellis, Gilbert Arenas, Jermaine O'Neal, Antoine Walker, or even Allen Iverson are not going to accept shots being taken away for the good of the team. That was the reason that the Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Shaq, and Kobe Lakers ultimately couldn't win it all. However there are other players that are huge in sacrificing stats for their team and being unselfish to help their team win. Players such as Derek Fisher, Scottie Pippen, Tayshaun Prince, Bruce Bowen, and so on and so forth win alot of games and championships for a reason. Each championship team needs a guy or two like this to spread the "love" to their teammates and lead them in the right direction.

You saw Ray Allen scold Nate Robinson and Big Baby for being obnoxious and getting overhyped. You always saw Bruce leading teams to victory and giving pointers to younger players in the NBA. You guys saw it with Mark Jackson.

My point is, alot of you guys see Brandon as a player who doesn't care and shows no emotion, and is a zombie on the court because of his personality. I have a personality alot like his, and when I used to play in High School, I used to be like that whether I made a big play or did something very unintelligent. He doesn't like showing out when he does something good because he feels like he should be doing it all the time. He also doesn't think that showing out is smart. If a team like San Antonio or Boston picked him up, he'd be one of their most valuable pieces right away because while good shooting guards are a dime a dozen, winning players are not easy to come by. When he tweeted "Yeah someones getting shipped" what else is he lead to believe? Some people responded that he is an arrogant tool and thinks that he's the absolute ****, but he's not like that, if you read his tweets you'd know that he's just a man of few words, and that he gets toyed around with by his friends in Kansas. He just wants to win, and stats obviously don't matter to him.

Now we have Paul George. If he turns out good, he'll take the starting spot over him. Brandon wouldn't be upset about that, because it is all about winning. What is wrong with having a low cost winning role player to back up your super shooting guard Paul George? He does what he does, and he just helps teams. He leads without using many words, just like Ray Allen, Michael Finley, and heck Earl Watson do.

So, discuss. How expendable is he? How much are you open to dealing him?

And I ask that I not be too criticized because this is my first post. :D

graphic-er
06-29-2010, 04:09 PM
Actually I bet Rush would get angry over getting benched in favor of George, you just wouldn't notice it. If you are a competitor, then it eats you alive to see somebody take your spot.

I understand not faulting the guy for his personalty, but this is a team who had one of the most loud mouthed, rudest, trash talking SGs in the league for 18 years, so we have some preconceived notion as to what a great SG is. Right or Wrong thats just the way it is in Indiana.

Now you talk about him being the type of player who sacrifices stats for winning, that doesn't hold water when the team is asking him to shoot more and have more of an impact on the game. So if that's the case then he isn't giving the team what the team needs right now.

Sookie
06-29-2010, 04:16 PM
I'm caught with Brandon

Either he doesn't know how to play with Ford (which stats suggest)
Or he is simply not aggressive.

Brandon plays great defense. And he can shoot the three.

But offensively, he struggles to create his own shot. Perhaps, the difference in Rush was simply Jack/Watson/Price looked for him on the wing, more so than Ford did.

I think working on a midrange game, and learning how to create his own shots (and FINISH) would do a lot in helping him.

I don't think his personality is why "sometimes he shows up and sometimes he doesn't." He consistently plays good defense. When he gets good shots, he shoots them...when he doesn't he passes. It's not about "not being aggressive." He simply depends on other players to get him his shot. It's not a personality thing so much as a skillset thing.

His personality is fine. God forbid a guy act classy and professional. he's just laid back and quiet. If he does his job well, that shouldn't be a problem.

odeez
06-29-2010, 04:31 PM
I am over Brandon. I can't for the life of me understand why someone with all the talent he has can't be more effective on a nightly basis. He just doesn't seem to have the fire inside. If he does he covers it up well. I don't think but on a hand full of times, have I seen him show any emotion at all. I like to see a little fire out of a player, show me you want it.

All that being said, he is a good defender and can only get better there. I like his shot, I just can't figure out why he doesn't knock down more of them. I saw him put the ball on the floor and go to the rim a few more times this past season, but not enough.

We need more scoring from him and he doesn't seem to be able to consistently do it. I know he has improved and I don't want it to sound like he sucks, but he needs to produce more offensively, period. His D has come a long way, I will give him that. But on the offensive side he needs to show a lot more.

I think he is as good as gone, I think TPTB might have already decided it. They are just waiting for the right deal. I think he has had more than enough time to show us what he's got and for me, so far, it is not enough.

Dece
06-29-2010, 05:20 PM
Seems a bit premature to use the argument that he's a winning player, when he's yet to play on a winning team.

Whoever wants to cite NCAA to me now can just go ahead and recall this is the NBA, and that couldn't matter less.

Eleazar
06-29-2010, 05:20 PM
On the offensive side of the ball he is kind of the anti-Daniels. Daniels was the master of creating his own shot, but couldn't hit an outside jumper if his life depended on it. While Rush can hit three's all day, but has trouble creating an outside shot.

As far as personality goes I don't give a **** about it, and neither should anyone else. As well I highly doubt Reggie's personality has anything to do with people's perception of Rush and his personality. Really I think people see it as the reason he is inconsistent, so they want to blame it when in reality his inconsistency has more to do with his confidence than personality. When he shows his confidence he is just as good Granger, but when he isn't confident he has trouble on the offensive end. The only reason his personality would be a problem is for leadership, he wouldn't be good as a vocal leader, but more of a lead by example kind of guy which doesn't always translate well to others.

I do think Rush would be mad if George started over him, it would probably push him to be better, but I think Rush would eventually accept it once he either realizes that George is just better than him or it is better for the team.

pacers74
06-29-2010, 05:30 PM
Brandon was suppose to have his break out season last year after he had a great spring last year. Then this year came and he was back to the same old Rush. He show a ton of potential on some nights and then on other nights he looks like he is afraid to shoot or even touch the ball. His nights when he doesn't show up out weigh his nights when he does show up.
I don't see him getting much better here. If he improves and becomes a solid starter for another team I will not be mad. In fact I will be happy for him. His time is up here. We need to trade him before he has no value at all.

joew8302
06-29-2010, 05:51 PM
I said this on another thread, but the Brandon Rush you see is the Brandon Rush you get IMO. He will be 25 before the start of next season. There are a few guys who have gone on to make drastic strides and become better after the age of 25 (David West, Manu Ginobli, Steve Nash). That said, the majority of players, whether good, average bad etc. are who they are by the age of 25.

Brandon, as well as others, could improve on aspects such as court awareness, positioning, etc. But as with most players, at age 25 you are what you are. I highly doubt Rush will ever make big strides and become a remarkably better player. His defense will keep him in the league for some years, but his offensive ability is a liability most of the time.

Eleazar
06-29-2010, 06:03 PM
I said this on another thread, but the Brandon Rush you see is the Brandon Rush you get IMO. He will be 25 before the start of next season. There are a few guys who have gone on to make drastic strides and become better after the age of 25 (David West, Manu Ginobli, Steve Nash). That said, the majority of players, whether good, average bad etc. are who they are by the age of 25.

Brandon, as well as others, could improve on aspects such as court awareness, positioning, etc. But as with most players, at age 25 you are what you are. I highly doubt Rush will ever make big strides and become a remarkably better player. His defense will keep him in the league for some years, but his offensive ability is a liability most of the time.

Skill wise I agree, but that isn't Rush's biggest problem. He has the skills to be a good starter, he just doesn't have the confidence. Confidence is something that can change.

colts19
06-29-2010, 07:09 PM
I said this on another thread, but the Brandon Rush you see is the Brandon Rush you get IMO. He will be 25 before the start of next season. There are a few guys who have gone on to make drastic strides and become better after the age of 25 (David West, Manu Ginobli, Steve Nash). That said, the majority of players, whether good, average bad etc. are who they are by the age of 25.

Brandon, as well as others, could improve on aspects such as court awareness, positioning, etc. But as with most players, at age 25 you are what you are. I highly doubt Rush will ever make big strides and become a remarkably better player. His defense will keep him in the league for some years, but his offensive ability is a liability most of the time.

I don't think Brandon has to improve or make drastic strides, he just needs to fit into the system a little better. He doesn't have to become a lot better, I don't expect him to be the next jordon. Everyone wants to trade him and say he no good, we all complain about this team's poor defense and for some reason everyone wants to trade who i think is our best defense player. I just don't understand.

Sookie
06-29-2010, 07:15 PM
Brandon was a good starter.
He played good Defense (on the opposing team's best player..and on a team that lacks defense)

And makes his shots when he's open.

You going to tell me that Bruce Bowen wasn't a good starter?

What he hasn't been is a star. A Robin to Granger's batman. It really should say enough that Pop is interested in him. And heck, if Pop gets a hold of him, we'll all be kicking ourselves.

joew8302
06-29-2010, 07:20 PM
Again, for the Rush apologists he will be 25. If he isn't "confident" or hasn't "got it" by now when will he? People don't make these revelations in their careers on the down side of 25. It just doesn't ever happen.

And by the way, the Bowen comparison isn't good. Bowen was much smarter player and a ton better on defense than Rush is. I like Rush's defense, but he is not in Bowen's league.

PacersPride
06-29-2010, 07:23 PM
Actually I bet Rush would get angry over getting benched in favor of George, you just wouldn't notice it. If you are a competitor, then it eats you alive to see somebody take your spot.

I understand not faulting the guy for his personalty, but this is a team who had one of the most loud mouthed, rudest, trash talking SGs in the league for 18 years, so we have some preconceived notion as to what a great SG is. Right or Wrong thats just the way it is in Indiana.

Now you talk about him being the type of player who sacrifices stats for winning, that doesn't hold water when the team is asking him to shoot more and have more of an impact on the game. So if that's the case then he isn't giving the team what the team needs right now.

love the Reggie Miller reference. BOOM BABY!! I may be in ther minority, but i think trading rush will be a mistake.

flox
06-29-2010, 07:34 PM
Again, for the Rush apologists he will be 25. If he isn't "confident" or hasn't "got it" by now when will he? People don't make these revelations in their careers on the down side of 25. It just doesn't ever happen.

And by the way, the Bowen comparison isn't good. Bowen was much smarter player and a ton better on defense than Rush is. I like Rush's defense, but he is not in Bowen's league.

Bowen also wasn't drafted and didn't crack the NBA until he was 25.

I think he improved drastically from that point on.

Bowen wasn't born good. In fact, he didn't "get it" until he was around 30.

/shrug

idioteque
06-29-2010, 07:39 PM
Bowen also wasn't drafted and didn't crack the NBA until he was 25.

I think he improved drastically from that point on.

Bowen wasn't born good. In fact, he didn't "get it" until he was around 30.

/shrug

True, but for every Bruce Bowen there are probably thousands of players who had similar skill sets at around age 25 and never improved. He is definitely an unusual case.

flox
06-29-2010, 07:45 PM
True, but for every Bruce Bowen there are probably thousands of players who had similar skill sets at around age 25 and never improved. He is definitely an unusual case.

you also see more players entering the NBA at an older age and winning. See players like Parker, Moon, etc.

joew8302
06-29-2010, 08:23 PM
Bowen also wasn't drafted and didn't crack the NBA until he was 25.

I think he improved drastically from that point on.

Bowen wasn't born good. In fact, he didn't "get it" until he was around 30.

/shrug

Ahh yes, lets based these decisions on exceptions to the rule instead of the rule itself. What is really so hard to hear about that?

Reggie Miller- good before 25
Tim Duncan- good before 25
Keyon Clark- bad before 25
Darko Milicic- Bad before 25
Paul Pierce- good before 25

For every Bruce Bowen, Steve Nash, Manu Ginobli, and guys like that there are 25 guys who fit the rule. If you want to believe Brandon is going to be one of the guys who is an exception, great, I hope you are right and I am wrong. The stats, logic and percentages do not back you up at all.

Eleazar
06-29-2010, 09:02 PM
You know you keep saying 25, but you aren't looking at the whole picture. First off you are really just comparing the best from the worst, extremes don't make for a good comparison, I'm willing to bet that if you look at role players they are just as likely to figure it out when they are 29 as they are when they are 25. Also I think how many seasons in the NBA has more to do with it than age. If you look at every player you will most likely see a pattern that those who are in the league longer than 5 years made a big jump in their 3rd year in the league, and those who didn't didn't last for very long. This is a rule that most other sports have accepted, which is why it is fairly common to see 4 year rookie contracts.

flox
06-29-2010, 09:06 PM
Ahh yes, lets based these decisions on exceptions to the rule instead of the rule itself. What is really so hard to hear about that?

Reggie Miller- good before 25
Tim Duncan- good before 25
Keyon Clark- bad before 25
Darko Milicic- Bad before 25
Paul Pierce- good before 25

For every Bruce Bowen, Steve Nash, Manu Ginobli, and guys like that there are 25 guys who fit the rule. If you want to believe Brandon is going to be one of the guys who is an exception, great, I hope you are right and I am wrong. The stats, logic and percentages do not back you up at all.

Yeah, but then by your logic if we expect everyone to play by the percentages and play by stats and logic there wouldn't be a need for them because everything goes by the numbers. Those numbers aren't right 100% of the time, if they are, then there would be no statistical outliers, anomalies, or exceptions to the rule.

So yeah, you can throw you numbers at me and say they don't support me, etc.

But that doesn't make the position any more feasible than it did before. And the numbers are better than you make it out to be when you claim that there isn't time left for Rush to improve.

And the numbers and players you keep on using are the players that were early bloomers who showed who they are by the time they are 25. From all evidence gathered for Rush (slow starter, doesn't play well till the 2nd half of the season), then there is reason to suspect that Rush isn't your typical player.

For instance, McDyess and A.Miller are players who don't really work out that much in the offseason, that is true 6-8 seasons ago and that is true now.
But as the season goes on, Dyess and Miller get better and they play better, and be really good near the tail end.

So what if he has that kind of trait in him and that's also evident in his career path as well? What if he needs a while to have it click and allow players like Parker, Bowen, etc to become good, solid players at a later age because they just get better and learn to use their body/tools/etc?

I'm not saying that this is what is going to happen or such, but given what Brandon has shown us, it could be very probable.

Is it as probable as him become a bust and never figuring it out? Probably not, as the data that you refer to suggest that he will probably be bad.

But is there a likely probability that is certainly more than what you are suggesting via the tone and style of your posts?

Yes.

Eleazar
06-29-2010, 09:15 PM
I just want to add Hansbrough is going to be 25 in Nov. Does that mean he has reached his limit?

BornReady
06-29-2010, 09:17 PM
I just want to add Hansbrough is going to be 25 in Nov. Does that mean he has reached his limit?

...no

BlueNGold
06-29-2010, 09:58 PM
True, but for every Bruce Bowen there are probably thousands of players who had similar skill sets at around age 25 and never improved. He is definitely an unusual case.

If everyone understood this, there would be half as many posts on this board.

The rare exception to the rule is not the rule.

joew8302
06-29-2010, 10:01 PM
I just want to add Hansbrough is going to be 25 in Nov. Does that mean he has reached his limit?

Outstanding piece of info. That is excellent. lets compare a guy who has what, 20 career games under his belt to a guy who has been in the league for two full years. Great comparison.

Pacersalltheway10
06-29-2010, 11:59 PM
I don't see why some people want to wait on him , the Pacers are in a situation where if they don't bring attendance up which also means win more games in the next few years. they would likely not be in Indiana anymore. If you can trade rush for instant help then do it. if we were a top NBA team who wasn't losing money and isn't considering moving the team (according to Indy Star via David morway) I would love to keep rush.

flox
06-30-2010, 03:19 AM
If everyone understood this, there would be half as many posts on this board.

The rare exception to the rule is not the rule.

If we don't discuss and look and see why there are exceptions to the rule then well there are no exceptions to the rule then are there? Especially if all we are going to do is play the game by the odds and assume everyone pans out by the rules. Then the draft would be soooo easy.


Outstanding piece of info. That is excellent. lets compare a guy who has what, 20 career games under his belt to a guy who has been in the league for two full years. Great comparison.

And yet, he will break into the rule of players not getting better after 25, if the people say he will turn out the way he turns outs. And his age SHOULD count against him, not for him, regardless of how many games he played. If we are going strictly with your rules, then that counts.

IndyPacer
06-30-2010, 07:19 AM
I said this on another thread, but the Brandon Rush you see is the Brandon Rush you get IMO. He will be 25 before the start of next season. There are a few guys who have gone on to make drastic strides and become better after the age of 25 (David West, Manu Ginobli, Steve Nash). That said, the majority of players, whether good, average bad etc. are who they are by the age of 25.

Brandon, as well as others, could improve on aspects such as court awareness, positioning, etc. But as with most players, at age 25 you are what you are. I highly doubt Rush will ever make big strides and become a remarkably better player. His defense will keep him in the league for some years, but his offensive ability is a liability most of the time.

It's not like basketball has some critical period when you must learn it by 25 and then part of your brain shuts off and rewires itself like small children acquiring language. Rush and Hibbert have both been drafted into systems that do a very poor job of utilizing their talents. They are a defender and a bigman being coached by a guy who doesn't care about defense or interior play. Of course they would have better opportunities under someone like Popovich or Larry Brown. Hopefully whoever coaches after this year is competent.

McKeyFan
06-30-2010, 11:10 AM
we all complain about this team's poor defense and for some reason everyone wants to trade who i think is our best defense player. I just don't understand.

There's a lot not to understand. Last year, we complained about defense, Bird acquired a couple of defensive minded players, and JOB didn't play them much.

McKeyFan
06-30-2010, 11:22 AM
I just think a shooting guard should be able to shoot 70 percent from the free throw line, something Brandon has failed to accomplish in either of his first two years.

This cannot be blamed on the coach. It can't be blamed on the system. He does not need to wait until his third year in the league to shoot free throws better than an uncoordinated center.

The problem here lies with Brandon, his attitude, his mindset, his inability to work through obstacles, and his lack of talent between the ears.

Maybe the free throw shooting is reflective of the rest of his game, maybe its not. I wouldn't place a lot of money on him right now. Let's trade for a point guard.

ksuttonjr76
06-30-2010, 11:31 AM
It's not like basketball has some critical period when you must learn it by 25 and then part of your brain shuts off and rewires itself like small children acquiring language. Rush and Hibbert have both been drafted into systems that do a very poor job of utilizing their talents. They are a defender and a bigman being coached by a guy who doesn't care about defense or interior play. Of course they would have better opportunities under someone like Popovich or Larry Brown. Hopefully whoever coaches after this year is competent.

I agree 100%.

To everyone else. Give me a *****ing break! I just posted this information in a different thread, but Brandon Rush was in the Top 10 for rebounding, blocked shots, and 3PT%. Brandon Rush is a solid player who barely average over 1 turnover a game. Brandon Rush plays in a system where the PG rarely looks for him, a stretch-PF who attempts 11.3 shots per game, the star ranks 8th in FGA, and with a who coach believes in taking the 1st shot available (Rush is the 3rd or 4th option).

Real talk, Brandon Rush is NOT going to average 15 PPG in this system. I'll be surprised if Paul George does any better under JOB, unless he's a complete ballhog or a GREAT draft pick steal. I've said this all last season...JOB doesn't know how to use the players on this team. IMHO, it's a joke that our next best scorer averages 14.6 PPG mainly because he trails behind on fastbreaks.

BringJackBack
07-01-2010, 03:45 PM
I just think a shooting guard should be able to shoot 70 percent from the free throw line, something Brandon has failed to accomplish in either of his first two years.

This cannot be blamed on the coach. It can't be blamed on the system. He does not need to wait until his third year in the league to shoot free throws better than an uncoordinated center.

The problem here lies with Brandon, his attitude, his mindset, his inability to work through obstacles, and his lack of talent between the ears.

Maybe the free throw shooting is reflective of the rest of his game, maybe its not. I wouldn't place a lot of money on him right now. Let's trade for a point guard.

I'm just saying that he doesn't have an attitude problem. He does have a problem with his 6 inch game but he is still good in certain situations.

He's not going to make alot of money in this league, so we don't have to worry about him being overpaid to back up George or whatever. And I'm fine with shipping him if we get a point guard, but don't just have him be a throw in like some people are saying. But he's going to make practice better, and there are going to be times when he just does good things at a low price for the team. I think he can be a good glue guy.

I'm really sorry though for bumping this thread I haven't been able to get on, and I just went back to look at this thread, and there was some things I wanted to reply to. I apologize for this, truthfully, but I just had to put my two cents in.

joew8302
07-01-2010, 03:52 PM
I agree 100%.

To everyone else. Give me a *****ing break! I just posted this information in a different thread, but Brandon Rush was in the Top 10 for rebounding, blocked shots, and 3PT%. Brandon Rush is a solid player who barely average over 1 turnover a game. Brandon Rush plays in a system where the PG rarely looks for him, a stretch-PF who attempts 11.3 shots per game, the star ranks 8th in FGA, and with a who coach believes in taking the 1st shot available (Rush is the 3rd or 4th option).

Real talk, Brandon Rush is NOT going to average 15 PPG in this system. I'll be surprised if Paul George does any better under JOB, unless he's a complete ballhog or a GREAT draft pick steal. I've said this all last season...JOB doesn't know how to use the players on this team. IMHO, it's a joke that our next best scorer averages 14.6 PPG mainly because he trails behind on fastbreaks.

Sweet, it is Jim O'Brien's fault Rush plays scared. I suppose it it is also O'Brien's fault he can't hit a free throw. I suppose it is O'Briens fault next time it snows too.

BringJackBack
07-01-2010, 03:56 PM
Sweet, it is Jim O'Brien's fault Rush plays scared. I suppose it it is also O'Brien's fault he can't hit a free throw. I suppose it is O'Briens fault next time it snows too.

It's not Jims' fault but he probably can make more of an effort to give Brandon some training wheels such as having him move without the ball, running pick n rolls with him, etc.

He could let him pass the ball in sometimes or let him dribble it up the court I don't know.

joew8302
07-01-2010, 04:03 PM
It's not Jims' fault but he probably can make more of an effort to give Brandon some training wheels such as having him move without the ball, running pick n rolls with him, etc.

He could let him pass the ball in sometimes or let him dribble it up the court I don't know.

Excellent point. After all it is a coaches league.

BringJackBack
07-01-2010, 04:17 PM
Excellent point. After all it is a coaches league.

Are you being sarcastic?

If you are, I'm not saying that it is going to make Brandon something he isn't, but he should be played to his strengths more.

He may never get it together with this team. But I think that he will one day with a winning team, hopefully us.

He does play scared, not scared of whomever he's against, but he's scared of messing up or making a mistake, and he can get over that with proper direction. Bill Self helped him for 4 years.

ksuttonjr76
07-01-2010, 04:18 PM
Sweet, it is Jim O'Brien's fault Rush plays scared. I suppose it it is also O'Brien's fault he can't hit a free throw. I suppose it is O'Briens fault next time it snows too.

Is JOB the person who designs the plays for the players???? Scared??? When I watch Brandon Rush, I don't get the impression that he's "scared". I see a player who looks to setup everyone else up, before he takes the shot. If that's a crime, then I don't have anything else to say to you. The man is above-average in most things at his position, but he's scared because he's not averaging 15 PPG in a helter-skelter offense.

joew8302
07-01-2010, 04:26 PM
Is JOB the person who designs the plays for the players???? Scared??? When I watch Brandon Rush, I don't get the impression that he's "scared". I see a player who looks to setup everyone else up, before he takes the shot. If that's a crime, then I don't have anything else to say to you. The man is above-average in most things at his position, but he's scared because he's not averaging 15 PPG in a helter-skelter offense.

A player who looks to setup everyone else? That is just terribly wrong. In his two years in the NBA he averages over 27 minutes per game and 1.1 assists per game. I really have no clue what you are watching.

BringJackBack
07-01-2010, 04:27 PM
A player who looks to setup everyone else? That is just terribly wrong. In his two years in the NBA he averages over 27 minutes per game and 1.1 assists per game. I really have no clue what you are watching.

I agree with you but he does look an awful lot to throw it down to the big guy.

ksuttonjr76
07-01-2010, 05:14 PM
A player who looks to setup everyone else? That is just terribly wrong. In his two years in the NBA he averages over 27 minutes per game and 1.1 assists per game. I really have no clue what you are watching.

Not his problem if they don't convert...Indiana was ranked 28th in the league for FG%.

ksuttonjr76
07-01-2010, 05:15 PM
I agree with you but he does look an awful lot to throw it down to the big guy.

One of the few players who does.