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PacersPride
06-29-2010, 11:59 AM
been reading on espn/realgm threads from hornets fans stating what they would want in exchange for Collison. is the below too much for the pacers to take back in a deal?

the overall consensus from hornet fans is they want to get under the cap to sign an MLE FA. many of their fans said this would be a good trade for their team.

Collison, Okafor, Posey, Songalia (24 million)

for

Murphy, Ford, Solo (20 million)
or
Dun, Ford, Solo (19 million)

as a pacers fan if this was agreed to by NO's I would encourage Bird to accept. We do not have to give up Rush (not much interest in him from NO's) or a draft pick.

I do not see either team getting a better deal than the one listed above. For indy we get a good young pg, solid pf even though he is overpaid, its balanced out by Collison's reasonable contract. Posey has 2 years remaining at 6.5 million and can backup Granger, and is likely tradeable next season. Songalia has one year remaining at 5 million and is tradable this season with our other expirings, and if not we let him walk.

our lineup would be something as follows:

pg: Collison, Price
sg: Rush, George, Jones
sf: Granger, Posey
pf: Okafor, Hansbrough, McBob
c: Hibbert, Songalia, Rolle

Dunleavy or Murph would stay, and likely Foster (which im okay with, i like foster, and hope he retires a pacer).

is this too much for indy too take back? i ask b/c it seems most hornets fans would be willing to agree with this exchange of players.

Gamble1
06-29-2010, 12:04 PM
I am not sure when all the contracts end but wouldn't this mean it would be really hard to resign Hibbert, Rush and Collision?

IMO the proposed line up gets you into the playoffs but not very deep into the playoffs.

Mourning
06-29-2010, 12:06 PM
Yes, it's too much, sorry. Asking us to take on Okafor or Posey and Songalia is pretty much what could be expected, but asking Indy to take on all three (!!!) for Collison is rather brutal.

I get that we are not sending draftpicks or Rush, but NO would have to take back something else from us if they want to dump all that crap on us, a non-expiring, to lower our salarystructure atleast a little bit. That doesn't leave many options. Jones comes to mind.

PacersPride
06-29-2010, 12:07 PM
i also wanted to mention, giving up draft picks and young players is not a good option for a team in a small market. we need to cherish draft picks and young players b/c free agents are not likely to want to play here. i know this may seem like alot to pay for one player we want in Collison, but Okafor has value has well. Songalia can walk after next season, and Posey the following.

with Dun/Foster/ Songalia set to expire we would still have 21 million in exprings next offseason. depending on the new CBA agreement we should still be able to avoid the LT, and I think Foster can be resigned for around 2 million a season.

this would make our team competitive at every position and we could then hopefully attact a better coach to fit the players we have here.

esabyrn333
06-29-2010, 12:07 PM
I could see us taking back Okafor or Posey but not both.

Okafor has 4 years left

Posey has 2 years

Songalia is an expiring so I don't really se why he needs to be included....

graphic-er
06-29-2010, 12:08 PM
I am not sure when all the contracts end but wouldn't this mean it would be really hard to resign Hibbert, Rush and Collision?

IMO the proposed line up gets you into the playoffs but not very deep into the playoffs.


Exactly, no reason to take on all these multi year contracts for one guy on our wish list, I can see taking on Okafor, but to take on Posey and Songalia is just stupid. I'd rather give them a draft pick.

CooperManning
06-29-2010, 12:08 PM
What is this, the 4th thread about Collison? 5th?

Let me save some time, here are the conclusions that all Collison threads inevitably reach:

- If we could get Collison without taking back Okafor's contract or giving up Danny/Roy, we do it.
- NO has no reason to trade Collison unless they use him to move Okafor's contract.
- There's almost zero chance Bird is willing to take back Okafor's contract.

I'm a little shocked at how much mileage this unlikely-to-occur trade is receiving on here.

PacersPride
06-29-2010, 12:09 PM
I am not sure when all the contracts end but wouldn't this mean it would be really hard to resign Hibbert, Rush and Collision?

IMO the proposed line up gets you into the playoffs but not very deep into the playoffs.

Posey has two years remaining at 6.5
Songalia has one year remaining at 5
Okafor 4 years at 11 million and escalates
Collison 3 at 1.5

esabyrn333
06-29-2010, 12:11 PM
What is this, the 4th thread about Collison? 5th?

Let me save some time, here are the conclusions that all Collison threads inevitably reach:

- If we could get Collison without taking back Okafor's contract or giving up Danny/Roy, we do it.
- NO has no reason to trade Collison unless they use him to move Okafor's contract.
- There's almost zero chance Bird is willing to take back Okafor's contract.

I'm a little shocked at how much mileage this unlikely-to-occur trade is receiving on here.


Dog days of summer nothing else to talk about basketball wise

PacersPride
06-29-2010, 12:12 PM
What is this, the 4th thread about Collison? 5th?

Let me save some time, here are the conclusions that all Collison threads inevitably reach:

- If we could get Collison without taking back Okafor's contract or giving up Danny/Roy, we do it.
- NO has no reason to trade Collison unless they use him to move Okafor's contract.
- There's almost zero chance Bird is willing to take back Okafor's contract.

I'm a little shocked at how much mileage this unlikely-to-occur trade is receiving on here.

it may be, im not counting, but ive also done my research on this and invested some time in getting hornets fans opinons on this. if your not interested in the thread im not forcing you to read it.

your above logic is already taken into consideration, your taking up my time by mentioning what i already am aware of. however, i think bird would consider taking back okafors contract so we disagree there.

PacersPride
06-29-2010, 12:15 PM
Yes, it's too much, sorry. Asking us to take on Okafor or Posey and Songalia is pretty much what could be expected, but asking Indy to take on all three (!!!) for Collison is rather brutal.

I get that we are not sending draftpicks or Rush, but NO would have to take back something else from us if they want to dump all that crap on us, a non-expiring, to lower our salarystructure atleast a little bit. That doesn't leave many options. Jones comes to mind.

actually, how is it junk?? songalia is a player hornets fans want to move and he expires this season, so were trading expirings for another expiring and he is a servaciable big man. posey is the worst contract of the bunch at 2 years remaining and has some value backing up Granger. he would also be moveable next offseason.

Okafor/Collison combined is 12 million.. so thats an average of 6 mill per player.

indy is not going to get a better deal than this for a young pg, and on top of things not have to give up draft picks or brandon rush.

PacersPride
06-29-2010, 12:17 PM
I could see us taking back Okafor or Posey but not both.

Okafor has 4 years left

Posey has 2 years

Songalia is an expiring so I don't really se why he needs to be included....

i asked their fans the same question, they want to sign an MLE FA. Posey is the only bad contract in my opinion.

FANS ON HERE WOULD RATHER TRADE DRAFT PICKS OR RUSH INSTEAD OF TAKE BACK OKAFOR?? im not sure i agree with that, esp the draft picks.

wintermute
06-29-2010, 12:21 PM
been reading on espn/realgm threads from hornets fans stating what they would want in exchange for Collison. is the below too much for the pacers to take back in a deal?

the overall consensus from hornet fans is they want to get under the cap to sign an MLE FA. many of their fans said this would be a good trade for their team.

Collison, Okafor, Posey, Songalia (24 million)

for

Murphy, Ford, Solo (20 million)
or
Dun, Ford, Solo (19 million)



the pacers are probably right up against the luxury tax this season, so taking back an additional $5-6m in salary this season would cost the pacers over $10m including luxury tax penalties. that's on top of okafor's contract, which will handicap us for years to come. the financials seem very unlikely to me.

in fact, we're probably looking to be on the opposite side of such a trade, i.e. sending out some $24m in salary and only getting back $20m or so. i'll bet the pacers would want to get an mle free agent too.

OakMoses
06-29-2010, 12:22 PM
If we sign all of our draft picks, we are $0.9 million over the luxury tax line. If we take on an extra $4 million in salary, that puts us about $5 million over. In other words, this proposed trade costs us $8 million dollars this year. There's absolutely no way Simon would sign off on it.

I think the sticking point in all Collison deals is that we're not willing to give the Hornets what they want - immediate cap relief - so there's not going to be any trade.

I'm still betting that Collison ends up in New York when they get only Joe Johnson in free agency. Then you'll see a deal like Collison and Posey for a 2nd round pick.

PacersPride
06-29-2010, 12:31 PM
the pacers are probably right up against the luxury tax this season, so taking back an additional $5-6m in salary this season would cost the pacers over $10m including luxury tax penalties. that's on top of okafor's contract, which will handicap us for years to come. the financials seem very unlikely to me.

in fact, we're probably looking to be on the opposite side of such a trade, i.e. sending out some $24m in salary and only getting back $20m or so.

the LT does not kill us this season like it will next. and next year we would have around 21 million off the books.

im sure we are looking for that kinda move, thats why it will nvr happen. if you want a team thats going to be competitive this is the move that will make it happen NOW!

so lets just sit on the expirings, or get some backup pg and watch the team stink again next year, then when we have cap space we can all say WOOOOO!!! then what..... were not landing any FA's that are gonna come here and play. this deal gets us in the 50 win range and does not kill our cap next offseason.

GIVE ME A BETTER OPTION THAN THIS TO MAKE THIS TEAM COMPETITIVE. and waiting for cap room to clear is not gonna guarantee competitiveness. sorry for the caps but i think pacer fans need to realize this is a win now type of move that does not hurt us long term.

Okafor is overpaid about 4 million. but considering Collison's deal i think it averages out.

PacersPride
06-29-2010, 12:34 PM
If we sign all of our draft picks, we are $0.9 million over the luxury tax line. If we take on an extra $4 million in salary, that puts us about $5 million over. In other words, this proposed trade costs us $8 million dollars this year. There's absolutely no way Simon would sign off on it.

I think the sticking point in all Collison deals is that we're not willing to give the Hornets what they want - immediate cap relief - so there's not going to be any trade.

I'm still betting that Collison ends up in New York when they get only Joe Johnson in free agency. Then you'll see a deal like Collison and Posey for a 2nd round pick.

all right pacer fans, well until that happens lets enjoy pi$$ing and moaning about our time winning another 30 games this season and missing out on a chance to get a top 3 pick when we make our usual run towards the end of the year.

oh boy.. cant wait till next years draft.

in regard to 8 million,, i bet this deal puts 8 million back in the seats, and next year is when the LT really kicks in. by then were 21 million under.

CooperManning
06-29-2010, 12:40 PM
Since you value the opinions of Hornets fans, what do you think of their thoughts on Okafor/his ability to play PF?

http://www.hornetsreport.com/HRForums/showthread.php?t=60562

Some quotes from fans like us:

"Okafor's main position was never PF. He simply can't play the position especially in today's league where a pick and pop stretch four is vital. He also isn't anywhere near athletic and quick enough to defend 4s. His ideal situation would be one with a long 4 that plays on the perimeter and allows him to clean up in an offense that doesn't utilize the screen and roll very much."

"Okafor to me would be terrible at PF. Like has been stated here he has no offensive ability at all. Most of the great PFs in the NBA have a decent mid range jumper these days, and I don't see Okafor going out to defend that."

"Okafor would be a terrible PF. He has no offensive game, and limited athleticism."

Do you REALLY think Bird is going to pay:

'10-'11: $11,540,375
'11-'12: $12,541,812
'12-'13: $13,543,250
'13-'14: $14,544,687

to a guy that doesn't solve our problem at PF? Bird has talked our ears off about cap flexibility and I suppose after years of writing eight digit checks to Murphy and Dunleavy, I can't blame him. Look, I'd love to have Collison as much as the next guy, but paying a very average PF/C tweener $50+ mil on top of Posey and Songalia is going OVERBOARD.

diamonddave00
06-29-2010, 12:46 PM
I think Okafor's contract while costly is something the Pacers would be willing to take on to get Darren Collison. As I've stated before Okafor's strong points are Hibbert's weak points- rebounding, defense and shot blocking.

Even with all kinds of cap space after next season what free agents in the 2011 class fill our needs at pf and pg as Okafor and Collison would?

A simple Murphy and Dahntay Jones for Okafor and Collison trade works salary wise. In addition by trading Jones you remove 2.5, 2.7, and 2.9 mil from the Pacers cap each of the next 3 years to partially off set the Okafor contract.

Jones to me is expendable with the addition of George and probably Stephenson.

The Pacers would still have Foster, Dunleavy ,Ford, S. Jones and Tinsley's contracts coming off after the season totaling 31.6 million. With Okafor, George, Collison and Stephenson added to the payroll they would stand at around 38 mil in contracts entering next summers free agency period. That would still leave them 12-15 mil to go after a free agent they might want.

Remember too Brandon Rush's 2011-12 contract is a team option if he continues to be an enigma or Paul George proves to be better Rush could be traded or even let go. Rush will be due at least 4.1 mil in 2012-13.

wintermute
06-29-2010, 12:46 PM
the LT does not kill us this season like it will next. and next year we would have around 21 million off the books.



that's not correct. doing the deal you suggested will kill us this season.

look, you're a fan of collison. there's plenty of others though who don't think that highly of him. we only have so many trade assets, to me it doesn't make sense to sabotage our upcoming financial position (which is probably going to become our #1 trade asset) for someone who might not be more than a good backup.

as melli says, collison might end up going for free to an under the cap team like new york. next year, the pacers will be the under the cap team, with all sorts of possible lopsided trades in our favor. it's been a long slog, but the end is in sight.

CooperManning
06-29-2010, 12:55 PM
I think Okafor's contract while costly is something the Pacers would be willing to take on to get Darren Collison. As I've stated before Okafor's strong points are Hibbert's weak points- rebounding, defense and shot blocking.

Hibbert got more blocks in less minutes than Okafor last year:

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/253/screenshot20100629at115.png

And pretty much every Hornets fan disagrees with you about defense being one of Okafor's strong points.

PacersPride
06-29-2010, 01:04 PM
good post and thanks for the link. i checked out okafors stats. i tried posting them but that didnt work from espn. in summary, okafor averages 10 boards a game, 13 pts, shoots 50%, 2 blocks a game and is durable. yes he is overpaid. but he reminds me of dale davis who also played the power forward position when this team was elite.

most of the hornets fans were criticizing okafors ability to shoot/score. teams he has been on Bobcats (awful), Hornets (other than Paul are awful) he was needed to score. with Collison, Granger, Rush (if he ever gets a jumper), George (reaches potential) we will not need him to score, just do the dirty work. Hibbert is not Smits but he may become a low post scorer, not the 15 ft jumpshooter smits was but a scorer in some capacity.

i dont put that much merit into what hornet fans are saying, has okafor ever played next to a 7 footer.

the one thing i did read is can okafor defend power forwards. Dirk is an anomoly. but Garnett, Jefferson, Bosh (not a jump shooter), Gasol, Boozer, and most other pf's in this game still try to overpower you down low.

okafor no doubt is overpaid, but were not selling the farm on this one, and i believe it would give us a team that wins 50 games.

again, realistically is there a better trade that is going to be available. if Collison truly does have the ability to be an all-star than you make a deal like this or very similar.





Since you value the opinions of Hornets fans, what do you think of their thoughts on Okafor/his ability to play PF?

http://www.hornetsreport.com/HRForums/showthread.php?t=60562

Some quotes from fans like us:

"Okafor's main position was never PF. He simply can't play the position especially in today's league where a pick and pop stretch four is vital. He also isn't anywhere near athletic and quick enough to defend 4s. His ideal situation would be one with a long 4 that plays on the perimeter and allows him to clean up in an offense that doesn't utilize the screen and roll very much."

"Okafor to me would be terrible at PF. Like has been stated here he has no offensive ability at all. Most of the great PFs in the NBA have a decent mid range jumper these days, and I don't see Okafor going out to defend that."

"Okafor would be a terrible PF. He has no offensive game, and limited athleticism."

Do you REALLY think Bird is going to pay:

'10-'11: $11,540,375
'11-'12: $12,541,812
'12-'13: $13,543,250
'13-'14: $14,544,687

to a guy that doesn't solve our problem at PF? Bird has talked our ears off about cap flexibility and I suppose after years of writing eight digit checks to Murphy and Dunleavy, I can't blame him. Look, I'd love to have Collison as much as the next guy, but paying a very average PF/C tweener $50+ mil on top of Posey and Songalia is going OVERBOARD.

PacersPride
06-29-2010, 01:10 PM
that's not correct. doing the deal you suggested will kill us this season.

look, you're a fan of collison. there's plenty of others though who don't think that highly of him. we only have so many trade assets, to me it doesn't make sense to sabotage our upcoming financial position (which is probably going to become our #1 trade asset) for someone who might not be more than a good backup.

as melli says, collison might end up going for free to an under the cap team like new york. next year, the pacers will be the under the cap team, with all sorts of possible lopsided trades in our favor. it's been a long slog, but the end is in sight.

actually im not overly high on collison, but from what is available he is our best option. it comes down to the kind of potential that Collison has. some ive read believe he can be an all-star, im not drinking that kool aid just yet w/o a full body of work.

and yes, this is alot to take back but again, is there a better deal, now or next year that is feasible. or more specifically, a better pg. if collison truly is a point guard with all-star potential then pacers have to make this deal.

im not sure if i read this correctly, are you stating you believe DC is a backup point guard?? im not rebuttling your comment, just wanting you to clarify.

odeez
06-29-2010, 01:13 PM
I would prefer getting Posey, but I know that NO is looking to move Okafor contract in any deal. I want Collison bad, he showed he can lead a team and do it well. And for a rookie to do that says something. I am sure we will find out soon enough.

Also how many different post are we going to do for Collison? It is too bad we can't merge or group them into a parent thread.

PacersPride
06-29-2010, 01:15 PM
Hibbert got more blocks in less minutes than Okafor last year:

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/253/screenshot20100629at115.png

And pretty much every Hornets fan disagrees with you about defense being one of Okafor's strong points.

is Okafor a power forward or center, thats the question i would like answered and im not asking hornets fans. he is 6'10 250. i say he is a power forward. if he is gaurding centers those stats could be misleading thats all im saying.

against a team like the lakers, Okafor/ Hibbert vs Gasol/Bynum this is the kind of frontline you need to win. if they bring in Odom, we match with Hansbrough.

IM SICK OF LOSING. if collison is as good as advertised, this is a 50 win team that is very young. how long are we going to wait before Grangers prime is over.

binarysolo
06-29-2010, 01:17 PM
Can anyone clarify (looking at you, count) when the luxury tax is effected? Do we have to be under by the beginning of the season? Or could we make some deals during the season to escape the threshold?

count55
06-29-2010, 01:19 PM
Can anyone clarify (looking at you, count) when the luxury tax is effected? Do we have to be under by the beginning of the season? Or could we make some deals during the season to escape the threshold?

The luxury tax is based on the payroll as of the team's last game of the season, so April, 2011.

PacersPride
06-29-2010, 01:24 PM
i apologize. but i did my homework on this. asked hornets fans what it would take to acquire Collison and this is the consensus. they want to be able to sign a MLE. maybe we can remove either Posey/Songalia, but if this is what was offered i wanted to know if pacer fans would take it.

AGAIN.. how long are we going to wait before Grangers prime is over. i am sick of not seeing the pacers in the playoffs. and im not sure have cap flexibility is going to get us there within 2 years, by then Granger has what a 2 years left in his prime, maybe 3. we cant keep relying on him to score 30 a night to win, cause eventually he will break down. we need to get him some help and ASAP. if he is our franchise we make this move. if not then it might be time to deal him. Granger will be 28 at the start of this season and is entering his prime. injuries are gonna start accruing if we continue to rely on him like we have.


I would prefer some getting Posey, but I know that NO is looking to move Okafor contract in any deal. I want Collison bad, he showed he can lead a team and do it well. And for a rookie to do that says something. I am sure we will find out soon enough.

Also how many different post are we going to do for Collison? It is to bad we can't merge or group them into a parent thread.

binarysolo
06-29-2010, 01:26 PM
The luxury tax is based on the payroll as of the team's last game of the season, so April, 2011.

wow, it took you 2 minutes to respond to that. It's like you have a continuous search function that will alert you whenever your name is used in a post.

CooperManning
06-29-2010, 02:05 PM
Well now this is becoming a conversation about the direction of the team, but I'll offer my two cents anyway. You build for the longterm. Granger is the best player on the team, but not the center of the franchise. Him turning 27 doesn't put us in desperation mode. Jumping the gun will give you an above average team that gets beat in the 2nd round by the Lebron/Bosh superteam every year. Yeah, it'd be great to have a team back in the playoffs, but wouldn't you rather wait a little longer and have a well-built contender? Look at it this way -- It's reasonable to say that Granger will age similarly to Paul Pierce. They play the same position and are nearly the same height and weight. Even more, they both left school after their junior year. So far, Granger has played 375 games. Pierce? 985. Pierce is just now on the downslope of his prime. If Danny even has 500 more games in his prime, that's enough time to surround him with winners. I just think we'll find someone in the next two-three years more suitable for a $13/mil a year salary than Okafor.

aceace
06-29-2010, 02:07 PM
I would trade for Collison/Okafor in a minute. This would solve 2 problems, defense down low and a Roy (foul trouble) backup if we needed to go with a Okafor at C, Hansbrough PF combo. Collison takes the keys at PG. There are 4 players I would not trade in this deal, Granger, Hibbert, George and Hansbrough. Everyone else is fair game. Okafor is a double double machine with D, his contract while high and long only gives us about 35 million in contracts (total) next year. We could bring in a big time player or sign the young players we already have.

PacersPride
06-29-2010, 02:31 PM
Well now this is becoming a conversation about the direction of the team, but I'll offer my two cents anyway. You build for the longterm. Granger is the best player on the team, but not the center of the franchise. Him turning 27 doesn't put us in desperation mode. Jumping the gun will give you an above average team that gets beat in the 2nd round by the Lebron/Bosh superteam every year. Yeah, it'd be great to have a team back in the playoffs, but wouldn't you rather wait a little longer and have a well-built contender? Look at it this way -- It's reasonable to say that Granger will age similarly to Paul Pierce. They play the same position and are nearly the same height and weight. Even more, they both left school after their junior year. So far, Granger has played 375 games. Pierce? 985. Pierce is just now on the downslope of his prime. If Danny even has 500 more games in his prime, that's enough time to surround him with winners. I just think we'll find someone in the next two-three years more suitable for a $13/mil a year salary than Okafor.

i completely agree, i want a long-term contender. so we share that viewpoint and i believe this deal does that. posey/songalia 11.5 mill gone within two years (songalia's 5 next season). i dont think it hurts our cap space at all. were not bringing in 2 max contracts or even one for that matter. still have room to resign hibbert w/o going over the LT.

my mistake, Granger will be 27 at the start of this season. however, he is still carrying too much of the load offensively. secondly, i would like to see what he can do w/ a good pg running this team.

this is not about okafor, b/c we can absorb that one bad contract.. and its about 3-4 mill over what it should be.. the issue is length. so you have one player paid 4 mill more than he should for the next 4 years. we dont have a ton of options here.

anyways, i could post alot of reasons why we should do this but i want to keep it to the point. to answer your main question. ABSOLUTELY I WANT TO BUILD LONG TERM. thats why not giving up draft picks and rush is a good idea.

if Collison is the answer at point for this team, then you make this trade. if we want to suck one more year, and if the draft is loaded w/ pg's next season then we can wait. but players in the draft are nvr a sure thing unless named wall. see conley, felton and others. also, it takes time for a player to mature.

again, if collison is the solution, you make this deal. it does not strap us financially when you still have Foster/Dun/Songalia off the books at 21 mill next year along with whatever other expirings we have. the next year you expire poseys 6.5.

we get a pg, we keep draft picks and rush, give granger some much needed help, and add a pf who is the exact opposite of murphy, tough, rebounds, blocks, plays d (i hope) as opposed to only offense. hibbert becomes our force offensively over the next 4 years.

im sold on this.. b/c we become a 50 win team. hopefully we dont have to take all 4 contracts, but if we do, and if collison is legit, our fanbase would have something to be excited about.

note: if Bron & Bosh form a superduo.. no one else is winning in this league for the next 10 years anyway. at least we have a team that can win 50 and contend.

ps.. if your really CooperManning, which i doubt, can you ask Peyton to take a paycut for the good of the Colts team : ) preferably 12 mill less a year instead so Polian can sign two stud lineman to protect him from ever getting dirt on the back of his jersey. i want that guy playing until he is 40+. with 2 stud offenive linemen to go with Saturday, Diem, Johnson, he will have more time in the pocket. if your not Cooper.. please disregard. oh yea.. and tell eli thanks agian for kicking NE's *** in the superbowl!!!

Justin Tyme
06-29-2010, 03:09 PM
What is this, the 4th thread about Collison? 5th?

Let me save some time, here are the conclusions that all Collison threads inevitably reach:

- If we could get Collison without taking back Okafor's contract or giving up Danny/Roy, we do it.
- NO has no reason to trade Collison unless they use him to move Okafor's contract.
- There's almost zero chance Bird is willing to take back Okafor's contract.

I'm a little shocked at how much mileage this unlikely-to-occur trade is receiving on here.


Not quite the same amount of Hayward threads, but getting there with the same results of drafting Hayward.

Justin Tyme
06-29-2010, 03:27 PM
the LT does not kill us this season like it will next. and next year we would have around 21 million off the books.

im sure we are looking for that kinda move, thats why it will nvr happen. if you want a team thats going to be competitive this is the move that will make it happen NOW!

so lets just sit on the expirings, or get some backup pg and watch the team stink again next year, then when we have cap space we can all say WOOOOO!!! then what..... were not landing any FA's that are gonna come here and play. this deal gets us in the 50 win range and does not kill our cap next offseason.

GIVE ME A BETTER OPTION THAN THIS TO MAKE THIS TEAM COMPETITIVE. and waiting for cap room to clear is not gonna guarantee competitiveness. sorry for the caps but i think pacer fans need to realize this is a win now type of move that does not hurt us long term.

Okafor is overpaid about 4 million. but considering Collison's deal i think it averages out.



With you being a newbie maybe you don't realize Herb Simon isn't going to go into LT Land. He's made that plain ever since Bird took over the reins. How can he go over into LT Land, and then bargain with the CIB to get a better deal when he's over spending?

CableKC
06-29-2010, 03:29 PM
Can anyone clarify (looking at you, count) when the luxury tax is effected? Do we have to be under by the beginning of the season? Or could we make some deals during the season to escape the threshold?
Technically, we have to be under it at the end of the season ( in this case during the summer of 2011 )....but unless we waive and buy out our remaining Expiring Contracts for a huge part of the payoff....then we're pretty much looking at the end of the 2010 Trade Deadline in Feb 2011 to get under the LT.

dohman
06-29-2010, 04:40 PM
If we just let all our expiring go after this season we wont be talking collinson. We would have the cash to sign any pointguard we wanted. We need to quit taking back crap because someone might be good or we have a problem. All it has done is made us a team that gets excited for the lottery.

owl
06-29-2010, 04:53 PM
I think Okafor's contract while costly is something the Pacers would be willing to take on to get Darren Collison. As I've stated before Okafor's strong points are Hibbert's weak points- rebounding, defense and shot blocking.

Even with all kinds of cap space after next season what free agents in the 2011 class fill our needs at pf and pg as Okafor and Collison would?

A simple Murphy and Dahntay Jones for Okafor and Collison trade works salary wise. In addition by trading Jones you remove 2.5, 2.7, and 2.9 mil from the Pacers cap each of the next 3 years to partially off set the Okafor contract.

Jones to me is expendable with the addition of George and probably Stephenson.

The Pacers would still have Foster, Dunleavy ,Ford, S. Jones and Tinsley's contracts coming off after the season totaling 31.6 million. With Okafor, George, Collison and Stephenson added to the payroll they would stand at around 38 mil in contracts entering next summers free agency period. That would still leave them 12-15 mil to go after a free agent they might want.

Remember too Brandon Rush's 2011-12 contract is a team option if he continues to be an enigma or Paul George proves to be better Rush could be traded or even let go. Rush will be due at least 4.1 mil in 2012-13.


I have been promoting this deal for awhile. You point is very good about where are we going to get a pf and point guard like those two. Even if Okafor cannot play pf he can sure fill in at center behind or in front of Hibbert. We lose no draft picks. The only downer is paying a
little luxury tax this year. I would go to more games with that group on the floor and I suspect others would too. It is the best option for the Pacers. And who knows, maybe another trade of the remaining expirings would get them under the tax this year.

CableKC
06-29-2010, 05:58 PM
I have been promoting this deal for awhile. You point is very good about where are we going to get a pf and point guard like those two. Even if Okafor cannot play pf he can sure fill in at center behind or in front of Hibbert. We lose no draft picks. The only downer is paying a
little luxury tax this year. I would go to more games with that group on the floor and I suspect others would too. It is the best option for the Pacers. And who knows, maybe another trade of the remaining expirings would get them under the tax this year.
My guess is that Bird and the FO are as much concerned as they are with the long-term SalaryCap implications/impact of adding Okafor's Contract ( which is IMHO significant ) to the books as they are with the Luxury Tax implications.

PacersPride
06-29-2010, 06:24 PM
With you being a newbie maybe you don't realize Herb Simon isn't going to go into LT Land. He's made that plain ever since Bird took over the reins. How can he go over into LT Land, and then bargain with the CIB to get a better deal when he's over spending?

a newbie?? dont let the post count fool ya okay bro. ive been a diehard pacer fan for as long as ive known how to dribble a basketball and that was at a very young age.

your point is very valid. but this is entirely different dynamic of why you are opposed to this trade.

secondly, if the CIB is pacer fans, and follow the logic of most knowleageable fans, like the many on this site, they would understand this is a one year over the LT deal, and from there on out its not an issue. secondly, the bargaining chip is instead of 10,000 in the stands you now have 15,000+ watching a team that is actually competitive for a change.

so theres your answer. the extra 5,hopefully 9000 or the max Conseco holds also promotes business downtown.

so in essence, Pacers become competitive, make the playoffs.. remember the old jim mora line.

playoffs.. playoffs??

YES, playoffs, even though im a newbie as you put it which is laughable.. i do remember the glory days of the pacers.

more victories, equal playoffs, playoffs and victories equal more fans.. and fans equal more revenue for downtown.

reiterated.. this does not hurt our cap after this season. ask me for the complete breakdown and i will give it.

all im saying again is.. if collison's the real deal, you make this move.

PacersPride
06-29-2010, 06:31 PM
If we just let all our expiring go after this season we wont be talking collinson. We would have the cash to sign any pointguard we wanted. We need to quit taking back crap because someone might be good or we have a problem. All it has done is made us a team that gets excited for the lottery.

and who do you propose we sign?????????????

and for how much do we sign them for.. correct, if they are any good were signing them long term and max. or we draft a pg, then wait 3 years for him to develop, by then Granger is 31.

thats fine if you all are opposed, but if there is a move out there that is good now and long term this is it.

maybe revise it.. take back collison, okafor, songalia (17.5) and give them murphy/ and solo.. but your still taking on the LT.

hell, my guess is the 6 mill + LT you might actually make back in revenue because there might actually be fans in the stands at conseco.

PacersPride
06-29-2010, 06:37 PM
My guess is that Bird and the FO are as much concerned as they are with the long-term SalaryCap implications/impact of adding Okafor's Contract ( which is IMHO significant ) to the books as they are with the Luxury Tax implications.

well they might want to place a priority on getting fans to the games, and not rely on season ticket giveaways at half price or whatever other promotions they run these days to get anyone with a heartbeat to actually attend.

AGAIN!!!!

is collison the real deal?? if not then let the expires walk and go from there. many believe collison is the real deal. and at the price of one season in the LT, and taking on Okafor im good with it, considering Collisons deal is real good, i think the two balance one another out.

Okafor at 11, and Collison at 1.5 is 13 mill just to be evn. thats 6.5 mill for two players.

are collison and okafor worth 6.5 per player???

PacersPride
06-29-2010, 07:06 PM
that's not correct. doing the deal you suggested will kill us this season.

look, you're a fan of collison. there's plenty of others though who don't think that highly of him. we only have so many trade assets, to me it doesn't make sense to sabotage our upcoming financial position (which is probably going to become our #1 trade asset) for someone who might not be more than a good backup.

as melli says, collison might end up going for free to an under the cap team like new york. next year, the pacers will be the under the cap team, with all sorts of possible lopsided trades in our favor. it's been a long slog, but the end is in sight.

then again there might not be. with NJ, Mia, Chicago, NY, and any others all playing the free agent game this season, somebody is coming out a loser, actually a few will. so whats in style right now, will be more common next season. and were stuck with just cap space and an empty fieldhouse... but at least we have a suck team we dont pay much right.

not trying to be offensive but with so many teams now under the cap going for Bron sweepstakes. our opporutnity might be now.

Taterhead
06-29-2010, 07:42 PM
If we just let all our expiring go after this season we wont be talking collinson. We would have the cash to sign any pointguard we wanted. We need to quit taking back crap because someone might be good or we have a problem. All it has done is made us a team that gets excited for the lottery.

Have you even bothered to look at next years free agent crop of PG's?

Justin Tyme
06-29-2010, 07:56 PM
[QUOTE=PacersPride;1022870]

a newbie?? dont let the post count fool ya okay bro. ive been a diehard pacer fan for as long as ive known how to dribble a basketball and that was at a very young age. QUOTE]


Newbie in the sense you are new to PD. Not to hurt your feelings, but bro isn't exactly a proper description of me. ;) I'll bet your 1st BB wasn't leather, had a rubber bladder, and had laces on it.

Justin Tyme
06-29-2010, 08:10 PM
my guess is the 6 mill + LT you might actually make back in revenue because there might actually be fans in the stands at conseco.


Herb Simon is NOT going to go into LT Land. It's just that simple! Bird's on record saying Simon is not going to go over the LT. Not only does Simon pay dollar for every dollar over the LT, but he loses out on getting 3 plus million from the NBA for being under the LT.

It's nice as fans to want this or that, but the bottom line is we don't own the Pacers and man that does isn't going to pay LT on a team that is losing money anyway. How can he explain to the CIB he's got the money to lose on the LT.

PacersPride
06-29-2010, 09:51 PM
Herb Simon is NOT going to go into LT Land. It's just that simple! Bird's on record saying Simon is not going to go over the LT. Not only does Simon pay dollar for every dollar over the LT, but he loses out on getting 3 plus million from the NBA for being under the LT.

It's nice as fans to want this or that, but the bottom line is we don't own the Pacers and man that does isn't going to pay LT on a team that is losing money anyway. How can he explain to the CIB he's got the money to lose on the LT.

then the pacers should move.. cause im not seeing them as competitive anytime soon.

the last thing i want to see is them leave. but holding out on this deal will not do anything for us in the future. when multiple teams will have cap space next season, were not gonna find any bargain deals and possibly not even at the deadline.

teams can now move pieces to the losers in the Bron-bron sweepstakes. why do they want to add a murphy or even moreso a tj ford.

hang the curtains in the upper level at conseco. having cap space isnt going to matter.

owl
06-29-2010, 10:00 PM
Herb Simon is NOT going to go into LT Land. It's just that simple! Bird's on record saying Simon is not going to go over the LT. Not only does Simon pay dollar for every dollar over the LT, but he loses out on getting 3 plus million from the NBA for being under the LT.

It's nice as fans to want this or that, but the bottom line is we don't own the Pacers and man that does isn't going to pay LT on a team that is losing money anyway. How can he explain to the CIB he's got the money to lose on the LT.


How about putting a winner on the floor. The last 4 years have been losers.
One year in LT zone might be worth it. Right now the Pacers are not on many casual fans radar. Staying the way the Pacers are guarantees another losing season and more money lost anyway.

1984
06-29-2010, 10:04 PM
What is this, the 4th thread about Collison? 5th?

Let me save some time, here are the conclusions that all Collison threads inevitably reach:

- If we could get Collison without taking back Okafor's contract or giving up Danny/Roy, we do it.
- NO has no reason to trade Collison unless they use him to move Okafor's contract.
- There's almost zero chance Bird is willing to take back Okafor's contract.

I'm a little shocked at how much mileage this unlikely-to-occur trade is receiving on here.

Considering we are in the no man's land that exists between June 24 and July 1, I'd say anyone has the right to post anything that fits within the scope of Pacers Digest. It's not like there is a lot to talk about.

Swish
06-29-2010, 10:21 PM
a newbie?? dont let the post count fool ya okay bro. ive been a diehard pacer fan for as long as ive known how to dribble a basketball and that was at a very young age.

your point is very valid. but this is entirely different dynamic of why you are opposed to this trade.

secondly, if the CIB is pacer fans, and follow the logic of most knowleageable fans, like the many on this site, they would understand this is a one year over the LT deal, and from there on out its not an issue. secondly, the bargaining chip is instead of 10,000 in the stands you now have 15,000+ watching a team that is actually competitive for a change.

so theres your answer. the extra 5,hopefully 9000 or the max Conseco holds also promotes business downtown.

so in essence, Pacers become competitive, make the playoffs.. remember the old jim mora line.

playoffs.. playoffs??

YES, playoffs, even though im a newbie as you put it which is laughable.. i do remember the glory days of the pacers.

more victories, equal playoffs, playoffs and victories equal more fans.. and fans equal more revenue for downtown.

reiterated.. this does not hurt our cap after this season. ask me for the complete breakdown and i will give it.

all im saying again is.. if collison's the real deal, you make this move.

You do realize that when you go over the LT, not only do you pay two dollars for every dollar you are over, but you also miss out on the pot of money that is divvied up between all the teams that don't go over the LT? That's like at least 10mil, IIRC.

And Collison doesn't make this team a 50 win team. That's silly talk.

PacersPride
06-29-2010, 10:30 PM
You do realize that when you go over the LT, not only do you pay two dollars for every dollar you are over, but you also miss out on the pot of money that is divvied up between all the teams that don't go over the LT? That's like at least 10mil, IIRC.

And Collison doesn't make this team a 50 win team. That's silly talk.

so the long term solution it sounds like is to save as much money as possible. the hornets have probably already figrued out they can move bad contracts to other teams without taking anything back so this deal isnt likely to happen anyways. the teams that do not land bron, bosh, or other big fa's are gonna beat us to the punch come the trade deadline.

its gets them alot closer thats for sure. collison, rush, george, granger, okafor, hibbert, hansbrough, price are all very young players, it gives you a core to build on. and were a helluva lot more competitive.

like i said.. NO's has probably already figured out they move bad contracts to teams with cap space.. so were gonna have to build through the draft, let the contracts expire and hope we can sign a FA or 2.

could be awhile before we sniff the playoffs. but hey on the brighside Conseco will keep giving out tickets for next to nothing.

MLB007
06-29-2010, 10:31 PM
If we just let all our expiring go after this season we wont be talking collinson. We would have the cash to sign any pointguard we wanted. We need to quit taking back crap because someone might be good or we have a problem. All it has done is made us a team that gets excited for the lottery.

But you're talking about living with another losing season NEXT year and that's not going to be tolerable for anyone involved with the Pacers.
He's on a rookie deal. IF he's as good as he's shown, make the move now. (if it's really there to be made)

MLB007
06-29-2010, 10:33 PM
so the long term solution it sounds like is to save as much money as possible. the hornets have probably already figrued out they can move bad contracts to other teams without taking anything back so this deal isnt likely to happen anyways. the teams that do not land bron, bosh, or other big fa's are gonna beat us to the punch come the trade deadline.

its gets them alot closer thats for sure. collison, rush, george, granger, okafor, hibbert, hansbrough, price are all very young players, it gives you a core to build on. and were a helluva lot more competitive.

like i said.. NO's has probably already figured out they move bad contracts to teams with cap space.. so were gonna have to build through the draft, let the contracts expire and hope we can sign a FA or 2.

could be awhile before we sniff the playoffs. but hey on the brighside Conseco will keep giving out tickets for next to nothing.

Yeh could be a long 10 months to the playoffs. ;)

Pacersalltheway10
06-29-2010, 10:43 PM
From what I seen and heard, I think Larry is trying hard to get Collison. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he's in a Pacers uniform next year. After all he did think he was traded to the Pacers after a reporter asked him a question about a trade rumor.

NappyRootz
06-29-2010, 10:53 PM
so the long term solution it sounds like is to save as much money as possible. the hornets have probably already figrued out they can move bad contracts to other teams without taking anything back so this deal isnt likely to happen anyways. the teams that do not land bron, bosh, or other big fa's are gonna beat us to the punch come the trade deadline.

its gets them alot closer thats for sure. collison, rush, george, granger, okafor, hibbert, hansbrough, price are all very young players, it gives you a core to build on. and were a helluva lot more competitive.

like i said.. NO's has probably already figured out they move bad contracts to teams with cap space.. so were gonna have to build through the draft, let the contracts expire and hope we can sign a FA or 2.

could be awhile before we sniff the playoffs. but hey on the brighside Conseco will keep giving out tickets for next to nothing.


I think that you are right.

New Orleans didnt come close to kaing the playoffs with these guys so why pay a fortune when they are losinga ton of money and are in process of being sold.

A deal with teh Knicks that sends Okafor, Paul and Posey to the kNicks for Curry, Gallinari, Chandler and 2 future #1s makes much more sense for New Orleans.

They build around Collison and Thornton, Chandler, Gallinari and West. They save boatloads and have lots of future picks to add to their core. Curry plays well in his walk year which makes him attractive at the deadline.

The Knicks position themselves to add LeBron and one of the available PFs to go along with the three Hornets players.

They probbaly have enough room left when they are done to add Ray Allen as the final piece for a max MLE deal.

Thats still my darkhorse LeBron landing spot.

G- Paul and Allen
F- James and Boozer or Bosh
C- Okafor

Donnie Walsh GM of Year again

I cant see Miami or Chicago for James.........

Jersey would be a better fit if not in Newark for 2 years and a guy like Rudy Gay will fit there as alternative choice.

Dallas and Clips.....not seeing that either. Mavs could walk away with Joe Johnson though in a S/T.

That leaves Cleveland and the Knicks battling or LeBron. If teh KNicks can pull off teh Hornets deal....they could come from nowhere to win out and be in the ECF against Orlando next year.

Thats my .02

In other FA news...........Indiana signs Acie Law to compete for PG opening.

Swish
06-29-2010, 11:00 PM
so the long term solution it sounds like is to save as much money as possible.

Winner! I know that it might come as a shock, but professional sports is a business, and the point of a business is to make money, not win games. You can't spend your way out of debt. This trade doesn't make us good enough to swallow losing 20 million dollars. In economics it's called "potential cost". This trade is terrible for the bottom line, which is why it won't happen, no matter what 10 Hornets fans on the internet think.

PacersPride
06-30-2010, 01:11 AM
Winner! I know that it might come as a shock, but professional sports is a business, and the point of a business is to make money, not win games. You can't spend your way out of debt. This trade doesn't make us good enough to swallow losing 20 million dollars. In economics it's called "potential cost". This trade is terrible for the bottom line, which is why it won't happen, no matter what 10 Hornets fans on the internet think.

this might be a shock as well.. you cant make money LOSING. how do you come up w/ losing 20 million.. i had econ and am not following the math here. even if you factor in LT its around 10 million. which likely would be recouped by fan interest.

joew8302
06-30-2010, 01:44 AM
this might be a shock as well.. you cant make money LOSING. how do you come up w/ losing 20 million.. i had econ and am not following the math here. even if you factor in LT its around 10 million. which likely would be recouped by fan interest.

Donald Sterling begs to differ.

In all seriousness though, owners of sports teams do not purchase them as a money making investment. Most are resigned to the fact they will lose money. Owning a sports franchise is a hobby for the ultra rich sports fans.

PaceBalls
06-30-2010, 01:45 AM
this might be a shock as well.. you cant make money LOSING. how do you come up w/ losing 20 million.. i had econ and am not following the math here. even if you factor in LT its around 10 million. which likely would be recouped by fan interest.

I certainly don't want to see the owners and management scared to spend money to win. BUT, Collison and Okafor aren't the right way to do it.

Using the cap space the Pacers have now (with expirings in a trade) or will have (when they expire), is a once in a decade oppurtunity for the franchise. They can't afford to blow it. Add in the CBA question marks and things start to make sense. They should not conduct irresponsible business in a crucial time like now, and anyone who understands this would not want them to as well.

Do you really think that they should take that kind of gamble with Collison? And what do you base that on? A solid rookie year? So solid as to take on a really, really bad contract? I don't. There are only a few players in the league that they should look to blow the money on until the new CBA is set in stone. The only Hornet even worth considering this kind of long term investment, when the collective bargaining agreement is up in the air, is Chris Paul.

PacersPride
06-30-2010, 02:13 AM
I certainly don't want to see the owners and management scared to spend money to win. BUT, Collison and Okafor aren't the right way to do it.

Using the cap space the Pacers have now (with expirings in a trade) or will have (when they expire), is a once in a decade oppurtunity for the franchise. They can't afford to blow it. Add in the CBA question marks and things start to make sense. They should not conduct irresponsible business in a crucial time like now, and anyone who understands this would not want them to as well.

Do you really think that they should take that kind of gamble with Collison? And what do you base that on? A solid rookie year? So solid as to take on a really, really bad contract? I don't. There are only a few players in the league that they should look to blow the money on until the new CBA is set in stone. The only Hornet even worth considering this kind of long term investment, when the collective bargaining agreement is up in the air, is Chris Paul.

yes i do and here is a quick recap why. first the cap space is becoming overated real fast. there are multiple teams now with cap space that can take on these lopsided deals. so by the time pacers do have this cap space, other teams that lose out on lebron, along with memphis or whoever else will be in the same boat. cap space is now becoming a trend in the nba and its not gonna net a pau gasol deal anymore. secondly, who are we really going to attract in free agency. no one really has an answer there b/c the free agents next offseason are weak. third, even if the CBA agreement goes to as low as 50 million. the pacers are still under the cap next summer when other expirings fall off the books. yes we have to resign hibbert, but posey would soon be gone the following season and tradable. so even at a very low 50 mill cap, pacers are still at around 39 next year.

in regard to collison, im not predicting he is an all star. but looking at the numbers he posted, if he gives us 15pts, 8 assists, and is only 23-24 yrs old and making 1.5-2 mill for the next 3 years that makes okafors contract tolerable.

again.. okafor/collison combined equal 13 mill next season, thats 6.5 mill average per player. over the next three years is collison/okafor worth 7 mill per player. i would say okafor is worth right at 7 mill. and collison has the potential to be worth 5-9 mill in value.

i dont see a pg available that is going to give us a better return on our investment, unless its through the draft and then its still an unknown. at least we have a sample of what collison is capable of. and okafor although overpaid is not a dud. i think okafor next to hibbert would be a strong frontcourt.

so my answer is yes.. something like Foster/Ford/2nd for Collison/Okafor/Posey works for me. and i think it would help ticket sales as well. i dont really see anything better than this. and if we wait through another losing season, and draft a pg next year unless its a top 5 pick your taking a gamble that way as well. also, were gonna use that cap space anyways.

hell, in the long run this might save us, b/c were at 39 mill and have our core starting roster set. whose to say okafor will not play better on a good team (Charlotte & NO's kinda are awful).

put him w/ Collison, Rush/George, Granger, Okafor, Hibbert with a deep bench and i think the team improves significantly and is also very young.

the only catch is paying one year of LT. but i think that is offset by increased ticket sales and perhaps a playoff appearance.

aceace
06-30-2010, 02:18 AM
I certainly don't want to see the owners and management scared to spend money to win. BUT, Collison and Okafor aren't the right way to do it.


Collison would be ours for at least a couple more seasons and makes little, Okafor makes big money but IMHO it is not a bad contract. He is Dale Davis in many ways and a DOUBLE DOUBLE machine. We can't win with candy canes. Okafor brings a lot of toughness and Collison IMHO brings us a floor general. Thats two starters. Murphy makes more than Okafor this year so in essence we are only getting a 3 yr contract beyond this trade. Okafor has played every game the last 3 years. If the trade happened we would only have about 32-34 million in contracts so this should not hamper us in anyway on bringing in a big game player. We are not Chicago, Miami or NY, the only thing thats going to bring in anyone worth a hoot is money. We will still have that next year.

PaceBalls
06-30-2010, 02:34 AM
What you guys aren't getting is the CBA ramifications and a even a possible lockout. This is the wrong time to be saddled with big contracts, let alone trade for them. Hell, next summer, after they figure all the BS out, let's try to get Carmello or Horford... even Collison or whatever other good, young PGs there are. But now is a bad time to do it.

I'm all for getting Collison on the team, let's trade Hibbert for him. Rookie contract swaps.

PacersPride
06-30-2010, 04:01 AM
What you guys aren't getting is the CBA ramifications and a even a possible lockout. This is the wrong time to be saddled with big contracts, let alone trade for them. Hell, next summer, after they figure all the BS out, let's try to get Carmello or Horford... even Collison or whatever other good, young PGs there are. But now is a bad time to do it.

I'm all for getting Collison on the team, let's trade Hibbert for him. Rookie contract swaps.

are you even reading my posts. this is pure nonsense. did i not mention the cba agreement like 50 times. im not repeating it.

you really think carmello is coming to indy?

well that explains alot.

#31MillerTime
06-30-2010, 04:14 AM
I will admit Indy does need Collison but, there are other PG's out there that we could get. Would anyone consider Steve Blake at all?

CooperManning
06-30-2010, 07:56 AM
are you even reading my posts. this is pure nonsense. did i not mention the cba agreement like 50 times. im not repeating it.

you really think carmello is coming to indy?

well that explains alot.

Pure nonsense? It's an opinion, just like yours. You mention the CBA, but all you say is that at least we'd still be under 50 mil if they lowered the cap that far. No one knows what possible ramifications are going to come out of the CBA. but it's likely going to be more than a lowered cap figure. You're thinking like a fan here and not an owner. Cap space is "overrated" to you. Making rash decisions in the face of uncertainty is bad business, no matter how many 15 pt. 8 ast. starts Collison can string together.

CooperManning
06-30-2010, 08:02 AM
Has anyone that is claiming Okafor is like Dale Davis watched Okafor play more than once or twice in the last year? I'd sure hate to trade for a $50 mil guy and find out he's exactly like every Hornets fan describes him - a center in a PF's body who's not fast enough to guard athletic 4's and not strong enough to guard bigger 5's. Doesn't remind me of DD.

Justin Tyme
06-30-2010, 08:47 AM
I think that you are right.

New Orleans didnt come close to kaing the playoffs with these guys so why pay a fortune when they are losinga ton of money and are in process of being sold.

A deal with teh Knicks that sends Okafor, Paul and Posey to the kNicks for Curry, Gallinari, Chandler and 2 future #1s makes much more sense for New Orleans.

They build around Collison and Thornton, Chandler, Gallinari and West. They save boatloads and have lots of future picks to add to their core. Curry plays well in his walk year which makes him attractive at the deadline.

The Knicks position themselves to add LeBron and one of the available PFs to go along with the three Hornets players.

They probbaly have enough room left when they are done to add Ray Allen as the final piece for a max MLE deal.

Thats still my darkhorse LeBron landing spot.

G- Paul and Allen
F- James and Boozer or Bosh
C- Okafor

Donnie Walsh GM of Year again

I cant see Miami or Chicago for James.........

Jersey would be a better fit if not in Newark for 2 years and a guy like Rudy Gay will fit there as alternative choice.

Dallas and Clips.....not seeing that either. Mavs could walk away with Joe Johnson though in a S/T.

That leaves Cleveland and the Knicks battling or LeBron. If teh KNicks can pull off teh Hornets deal....they could come from nowhere to win out and be in the ECF against Orlando next year.

Thats my .02

In other FA news...........Indiana signs Acie Law to compete for PG opening.


Ray Allen isn't going to get a max deal from any team.

Donnie Walsh is never going to sniff GM of the year with the Knicks.

Walsh is not going to take on Okafor and Posey's contract to get Paul, nor is he going to give up Gallinari, Chandler, and 2 1sts. Walsh has no guarantee he can get LBJ. Or Bosh.

As far as where James might end up, I believe Chicago is a good possibility.

Justin Tyme
06-30-2010, 09:04 AM
[QUOTE=Swish;1023034]

You do realize that when you go over the LT, not only do you pay two dollars for every dollar you are over, but you also miss out on the pot of money that is divvied up between all the teams that don't go over the LT?

That's like at least 10mil, IIRC. /QUOTE]



A team that goes over the Luxury Tax has to pay 1 dollar for each dollar they are over the LT, not 2 dollars.

The money that teams who are over the LT goes into a pot that at the end of the season that is split between the teams that did NOT go over the LT. Hence an incentative to teams to make some easy MILLIONS. The amount varies each year, but no where near 10 mil... not even close, at least less than half of that.

Justin Tyme
06-30-2010, 09:15 AM
this might be a shock as well.. you cant make money LOSING.

how do you come up w/ losing 20 million..



That's not necessily true. In the Pacers case, they didn't make money in the 20 years they had winning teams. The Simons' were paying LT on having a team salary of 83 mil, and what did that get them other than taking money out of their pockets each year to run the Pacers?

20 mil is what the Pacers have reported losing last year.

Justin Tyme
06-30-2010, 09:57 AM
yes i do and here is a quick recap why. first the cap space is becoming overated real fast. there are multiple teams now with cap space that can take on these lopsided deals. so by the time pacers do have this cap space, other teams that lose out on lebron, along with memphis or whoever else will be in the same boat. cap space is now becoming a trend in the nba and its not gonna net a pau gasol deal anymore. secondly, who are we really going to attract in free agency. no one really has an answer there b/c the free agents next offseason are weak. third, even if the CBA agreement goes to as low as 50 million. the pacers are still under the cap next summer when other expirings fall off the books. yes we have to resign hibbert, but posey would soon be gone the following season and tradable. so even at a very low 50 mill cap, pacers are still at around 39 next year.

in regard to collison, im not predicting he is an all star. but looking at the numbers he posted, if he gives us 15pts, 8 assists, and is only 23-24 yrs old and making 1.5-2 mill for the next 3 years that makes okafors contract tolerable.

again.. okafor/collison combined equal 13 mill next season, thats 6.5 mill average per player. over the next three years is collison/okafor worth 7 mill per player. i would say okafor is worth right at 7 mill. and collison has the potential to be worth 5-9 mill in value.

i dont see a pg available that is going to give us a better return on our investment, unless its through the draft and then its still an unknown. at least we have a sample of what collison is capable of. and okafor although overpaid is not a dud. i think okafor next to hibbert would be a strong frontcourt.

so my answer is yes.. something like Foster/Ford/2nd for Collison/Okafor/Posey works for me. and i think it would help ticket sales as well. i dont really see anything better than this. and if we wait through another losing season, and draft a pg next year unless its a top 5 pick your taking a gamble that way as well. also, were gonna use that cap space anyways.

hell, in the long run this might save us, b/c were at 39 mill and have our core starting roster set. whose to say okafor will not play better on a good team (Charlotte & NO's kinda are awful).

put him w/ Collison, Rush/George, Granger, Okafor, Hibbert with a deep bench and i think the team improves significantly and is also very young.

the only catch is paying one year of LT. but i think that is offset by increased ticket sales and perhaps a playoff appearance.


You are leaving out other very important reasons of being under the cap. Being under the cap, allows the Pacers to BUY a player. Yes, buy a player w/o having to trade for the player. It also helps the Pacers being a faciliator as a 3rd team in trades to get a good player. The Pacers don't have to use the money on FA.

Augustin had very comparable stats his rookie year that Collison had his rookie year. There is NOTHING written in stone that says Collison won't have the same type 2nd year that Augustin had or he isn't a flash in the pan 1 year wonder. Then the Pacers are stuck with Okafor's albatross contract with not having the PG they needed. Personally, I'd rather take a gamble on Augustin than Collison and Okafor's albatross contract, and gamble on Augustin's down year was contibuted to Brown, sophomore jinx, or a combination of the 2. It would be a far less costly gamble than having to take on Okafor's albatross contract if Collison doesn't pan out.

What part of Herb Simon isn't going to go over the LT don't you understand? It is NOT going to happen. Zero chance. He's not going to reach in his pocket to take out millions to sell a few extra tickets that won't offset the millions he took out of his pocket. That isn't economically a prudent way of doing business.

flox
06-30-2010, 09:58 AM
yes i do and here is a quick recap why. first the cap space is becoming overated real fast. there are multiple teams now with cap space that can take on these lopsided deals. so by the time pacers do have this cap space, other teams that lose out on lebron, along with memphis or whoever else will be in the same boat. cap space is now becoming a trend in the nba and its not gonna net a pau gasol deal anymore.

I have to disagree with this. There are multiple teams currently with cap space, but for different reasons- they all want to sign a LeBron/Bosh/Wade type player. Other teams, who are smart and savvy, take cap space as a true asset- see how Portland and the Thunder built up their team with just cap space + draft picks.

Cap space did not really net anyone a Pau Gasol deal- the desire for cap space and teams with expiring contracts + picks lead to the Gasol deal. And there has never been more of a desire for cap space, as seen with the Hinrich/Cook trades. While that market will dry up soon, that still does not make cap space an overrated asset- for instance if we had cap space we could have gotten pick 17/18 by grabbing a contract that isn't as bad as okafors- heck, 18 was given away for taking cook. Cap space + assets are the reasons moves like those can be made, so I think cap space is really important.


secondly, who are we really going to attract in free agency. no one really has an answer there b/c the free agents next offseason are weak. third, even if the CBA agreement goes to as low as 50 million. the pacers are still under the cap next summer when other expirings fall off the books. yes we have to resign hibbert, but posey would soon be gone the following season and tradable. so even at a very low 50 mill cap, pacers are still at around 39 next year.

While there is no real need to go out and sign someone with the cap space we have, cap space is as flexible if not more flexible than expiring contracts. If we offer teams cap space and create a trade exception for that team, they will have more of a desire to trade with us because a trade exception is very valuable- it allows you to net a player while losing a cap hit. I fully expect the Heat to use the cook exception to net them a pretty decent player. And according to my math, we'd be probably at 44 million that year, not 50, if we do the posey trade under your guidelines.




in regard to collison, im not predicting he is an all star. but looking at the numbers he posted, if he gives us 15pts, 8 assists, and is only 23-24 yrs old and making 1.5-2 mill for the next 3 years that makes okafors contract tolerable.

again.. okafor/collison combined equal 13 mill next season, thats 6.5 mill average per player. over the next three years is collison/okafor worth 7 mill per player. i would say okafor is worth right at 7 mill. and collison has the potential to be worth 5-9 mill in value.

i dont see a pg available that is going to give us a better return on our investment, unless its through the draft and then its still an unknown. at least we have a sample of what collison is capable of. and okafor although overpaid is not a dud. i think okafor next to hibbert would be a strong frontcourt.

so my answer is yes.. something like Foster/Ford/2nd for Collison/Okafor/Posey works for me. and i think it would help ticket sales as well. i dont really see anything better than this. and if we wait through another losing season, and draft a pg next year unless its a top 5 pick your taking a gamble that way as well. also, were gonna use that cap space anyways.

hell, in the long run this might save us, b/c were at 39 mill and have our core starting roster set. whose to say okafor will not play better on a good team (Charlotte & NO's kinda are awful).

put him w/ Collison, Rush/George, Granger, Okafor, Hibbert with a deep bench and i think the team improves significantly and is also very young.

the only catch is paying one year of LT. but i think that is offset by increased ticket sales and perhaps a playoff appearance.

Or you know, draft a rookie pg and pay him the rookie salary and give him 2-4 million over a few years and not have to do some math to get an average value of 7 million over 2 players. Seems like a much better cap plan, a much better team plan, and does not handcuff us from making some good moves down the stretch, and does not force us to go all in on Collison.

Especially for the Collison doubters out there. That was only one year of stats people! on a very good hornets team.

DocHolliday
06-30-2010, 10:10 AM
Has anyone that is claiming Okafor is like Dale Davis watched Okafor play more than once or twice in the last year? I'd sure hate to trade for a $50 mil guy and find out he's exactly like every Hornets fan describes him - a center in a PF's body who's not fast enough to guard athletic 4's and not strong enough to guard bigger 5's. Doesn't remind me of DD.

Reminds me of a Raptors-era AD.

Swish
06-30-2010, 10:22 AM
A team that goes over the Luxury Tax has to pay 1 dollar for each dollar they are over the LT, not 2 dollars.

The money that teams who are over the LT goes into a pot that at the end of the season that is split between the teams that did NOT go over the LT. Hence an incentative to teams to make some easy MILLIONS. The amount varies each year, but no where near 10 mil... not even close, at least less than half of that.

A team pays double for every dollar. If you are over the LT by 4 million, you end up paying 8 million. That's paying two dollars for every dollar you are over.

You are right about the pot. I looked it up later and found that it was 3 million in 08. But even still, that is 11 million dollars we end up losing in this cockamamie trade. The Simons aren't pissing away 11 million on a guy who might end up as a backup.

NappyRootz
06-30-2010, 10:48 AM
Ray Allen isn't going to get a max deal from any team.

Donnie Walsh is never going to sniff GM of the year with the Knicks.

Walsh is not going to take on Okafor and Posey's contract to get Paul, nor is he going to give up Gallinari, Chandler, and 2 1sts. Walsh has no guarantee he can get LBJ. Or Bosh.

As far as where James might end up, I believe Chicago is a good possibility.

Well you r probbaly right about most of this. I do believe that Allen will get a max MLE deal though.........5 yrs $30mm+ range.

And if teh Knicks strike out on the FA trail with JOhnson and Bosh (cant see them walking away from $50mm to sign with Knicks)..........than the Hornets have to become a viable option for them.

ksuttonjr76
06-30-2010, 12:22 PM
Not asking Okafor to score...I just want him to rebound, block shots, and play his natural position of PF.

Justin Tyme
06-30-2010, 12:41 PM
A team pays double for every dollar. If you are over the LT by 4 million, you end up paying 8 million. That's paying two dollars for every dollar you are over.


Are you saying 4 mil over plus 8 mil as a penalty for being over the LT = 12 mil, or 4 mil over plus 4 mil penalty = 8 mil?

PacerGuy
06-30-2010, 12:48 PM
Are you saying 4 mil over plus 8 mil as a penalty for being over the LT = 12 mil, or 4 mil over plus 4 mil penalty = 8 mil?

$1 per $1 for being > tax line.

Ozwalt72
06-30-2010, 03:22 PM
$1 per $1 for being > tax line.

In addition to not getting the money that is split among all teams under the luxary tax.

Swish
06-30-2010, 03:29 PM
Are you saying 4 mil over plus 8 mil as a penalty for being over the LT = 12 mil, or 4 mil over plus 4 mil penalty = 8 mil?

Sorry for the confusion, 4 mil over plus 4 mil penalty = 8 mil.

CooperManning
06-30-2010, 04:14 PM
Not asking Okafor to score...I just want him to rebound, block shots, and play his natural position of PF.

I feel like I need to re-emphasize some quotes from people who watch the Hornets as much as we watch the Pacers. Anyone who read these on page one, feel free to skip ahead.

These were taken from a thread on a Hornets forum called:
"How would Okafor do at PF?"

"Okafor's main position was never PF. He simply can't play the position especially in today's league where a pick and pop stretch four is vital. He also isn't anywhere near athletic and quick enough to defend 4s. His ideal situation would be one with a long 4 that plays on the perimeter and allows him to clean up in an offense that doesn't utilize the screen and roll very much."

"Okafor to me would be terrible at PF. Like has been stated here he has no offensive ability at all. Most of the great PFs in the NBA have a decent mid range jumper these days, and I don't see Okafor going out to defend that."

"Okafor would be a terrible PF. He has no offensive game, and limited athleticism."

"10 points, 8 rebounds a game, blowing up against terrible teams and getting owned against good ones. This is what I expect from him. Oh, and minimal defense."

"Chokafor."

http://www.hornetsreport.com/HRForums/showthread.php?t=60562&page=1&pp=25

I'm sure not every Hornets fan is an expert on talent, but there's not a single poster in that thread that goes out of their way to defend Okafor.

ksuttonjr76
06-30-2010, 05:41 PM
I feel like I need to re-emphasize some quotes from people who watch the Hornets as much as we watch the Pacers. Anyone who read these on page one, feel free to skip ahead.

These were taken from a thread on a Hornets forum called:
"How would Okafor do at PF?"

"Okafor's main position was never PF. He simply can't play the position especially in today's league where a pick and pop stretch four is vital. He also isn't anywhere near athletic and quick enough to defend 4s. His ideal situation would be one with a long 4 that plays on the perimeter and allows him to clean up in an offense that doesn't utilize the screen and roll very much."

"Okafor to me would be terrible at PF. Like has been stated here he has no offensive ability at all. Most of the great PFs in the NBA have a decent mid range jumper these days, and I don't see Okafor going out to defend that."

"Okafor would be a terrible PF. He has no offensive game, and limited athleticism."

"10 points, 8 rebounds a game, blowing up against terrible teams and getting owned against good ones. This is what I expect from him. Oh, and minimal defense."

"Chokafor."

http://www.hornetsreport.com/HRForums/showthread.php?t=60562&page=1&pp=25

I'm sure not every Hornets fan is an expert on talent, but there's not a single poster in that thread that goes out of their way to defend Okafor.

How do they know? Okafor has never had an opportunity (to my knowledge) to play PF since he came to the NBA. It's the JO situation. IMHO, Indiana did a great disservice to JO when he was shifted to a full-time center. Okafor is no more a center than JO.

joew8302
06-30-2010, 05:51 PM
I feel like I need to re-emphasize some quotes from people who watch the Hornets as much as we watch the Pacers. Anyone who read these on page one, feel free to skip ahead.

These were taken from a thread on a Hornets forum called:
"How would Okafor do at PF?"

"Okafor's main position was never PF. He simply can't play the position especially in today's league where a pick and pop stretch four is vital. He also isn't anywhere near athletic and quick enough to defend 4s. His ideal situation would be one with a long 4 that plays on the perimeter and allows him to clean up in an offense that doesn't utilize the screen and roll very much."

"Okafor to me would be terrible at PF. Like has been stated here he has no offensive ability at all. Most of the great PFs in the NBA have a decent mid range jumper these days, and I don't see Okafor going out to defend that."

"Okafor would be a terrible PF. He has no offensive game, and limited athleticism."

"10 points, 8 rebounds a game, blowing up against terrible teams and getting owned against good ones. This is what I expect from him. Oh, and minimal defense."

"Chokafor."

http://www.hornetsreport.com/HRForums/showthread.php?t=60562&page=1&pp=25

I'm sure not every Hornets fan is an expert on talent, but there's not a single poster in that thread that goes out of their way to defend Okafor.

From what I have seen of the guy these Hornets fans are pretty dead on. I mean the guy is pretty worthless outside of 5 feet, he is slow on his man to man defense (although good on helpside) and absolutely could not do pick and pop.

Also, Okafor's best offense is rebounding his own misses at times. Look, I am not anti-Okafor. He will rebound well and play hard. But we would get killed by most power forwards on the perimiter if we left Okafor out there.

PaceBalls
06-30-2010, 06:07 PM
How do they know? Okafor has never had an opportunity (to my knowledge) to play PF since he came to the NBA. It's the JO situation. IMHO, Indiana did a great disservice to JO when he was shifted to a full-time center. Okafor is no more a center than JO.

So you really think the Pacers did JO a great disservice by expecting him to play Center while paying him $20 million a year... :crazy:


Furthermore, a center in today's NBA is a post player. What is JO but a post player? The guy was 6'11' 260+lbs, that is a center.

PaceBalls
06-30-2010, 06:10 PM
From what I have seen of the guy these Hornets fans are pretty dead on. I mean the guy is pretty worthless outside of 5 feet, he is slow on his man to man defense (although good on helpside) and absolutely could not do pick and pop.

Also, Okafor's best offense is rebounding his own misses at times. Look, I am not anti-Okafor. He will rebound well and play hard. But we would get killed by most power forwards on the perimiter if we left Okafor out there.

On the bright side, he has to be better on D than Murph... but that is not saying much.

I'm with you guys on this. Just say NO to Okafor.

joew8302
06-30-2010, 06:19 PM
On the bright side, he has to be better on D than Murph... but that is not saying much.

I'm with you guys on this. Just say NO to Okafor.

Well, to be fair I probably still would take on Okafor if the prize was Collison. I mean we have been looking for a good, young pg for a decade now. A stinking decade. I wouldn't be thrilled in obtaining Okafor, but right now we have absolutely nothing in the way of a PG.

Having Okafor on the team also wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. The contract is still terrible, don't get me wrong, but it would be nice to have Okafor for 20 minutes a game to save Hibbert in case of fouls on an injury. He can rebound and play good help defense, so he wouldn't be completely worthless eating up money (like Tinsley, or Tmac).