PDA

View Full Version : What is the maximum you would give for Collison?



joew8302
06-28-2010, 01:21 PM
I really do love Collison and would love to get him. But what is the maximum you would give? I would lay three pieces on the table and tell New Orleans to pick whichever two they wanted. The three would be.

Rush, taking Okafor, Paul George

I would think any more than two of these three would be overpaying.

HC
06-28-2010, 01:25 PM
I would give them a combo of Murphy/Rush/1st round pick (lottery protected)

for

Collison/Okafor

Gamble1
06-28-2010, 01:36 PM
I would give them a combo of Murphy/Rush/1st round pick (lottery protected)

for

Collison/Okafor
IMO thats way to much for Collision. I think we could get him with out adding in our 2011 first pick.

sheppie33
06-28-2010, 01:40 PM
No PG

Taterhead
06-28-2010, 01:42 PM
I would do Murphy + a future 1st for Collison/Okafor.

Taking Okafor should be enough along with a future first for Collison, IMO. And this trade is an absolute steal talent wise in our favor. People can say what they want but Okafor would help out tremendously down low whether he plays C or PF. We have got to get a PG at some point in time, and Collison is one of the best available.

We would still be way under the cap next year with Danny, D. Jones and Okafor as our vets + Collison, Price, Rush, George, Stephenson, Hansbrough, Hibbert, and Rolle. That to me is a great situation as a very young team without too many holes to fill and a lot of cap space to figure it out.

Pull the trigger Larry!!!

PacersAllDay
06-28-2010, 01:43 PM
IMO thats way to much for Collision. I think we could get him with out adding in our 2011 first pick.

Agreed. I think Murphy and Rush would get it done if we're taking back Okafor.

MillerTime
06-28-2010, 01:43 PM
Taking back Okafor will be huge. I was thinking the exact same thing. Murphy + Rush

Okafor would also benefit us. I dont beleive hes done as a player. He does have a pretty bad contract, but for some reason I dont think that would scared Bird from obtaining him, considering Bird picked up Murphy and Dunleavy

joew8302
06-28-2010, 01:46 PM
Taking back Okafor will be huge. I was thinking the exact same thing. Murphy + Rush

Okafor would also benefit us. I dont beleive hes done as a player. He does have a pretty bad contract, but for some reason I dont think that would scared Bird from obtaining him, considering Bird picked up Murphy and Dunleavy

I agree. Okafor's contract is bad, but at the same time I really don't think it is crippling. I mean he is a double-double guy, a good help side defender, gets blocks etc. He will never be an all star, but at worst he is a solid starter.

MillerTime
06-28-2010, 01:53 PM
I agree. Okafor's contract is bad, but at the same time I really don't think it is crippling. I mean he is a double-double guy, a good help side defender, gets blocks etc. He will never be an all star, but at worst he is a solid starter.

I also think moving Okafor back to his original PF position will be a great help to his game. He'd do well next to Roy

joew8302
06-28-2010, 02:05 PM
I also think moving Okafor back to his original PF position will be a great help to his game. He'd do well next to Roy

Hmm I am not sure, maybe depending on the matchups. But the Lamar Odom prototypes would kill him on the perimeter.

HC
06-28-2010, 02:07 PM
Yes Murphy/Rush should get it done, but if not the lottery protected 1st rounder could be used as a sweetner. Maybe they give us a 2nd rounder or some cash back in that scenario.

Hicks
06-28-2010, 02:24 PM
Hmm I am not sure, maybe depending on the matchups. But the Lamar Odom prototypes would kill him on the perimeter.

And the Lamar Odom types can guard him in the post?

MillerTime
06-28-2010, 02:29 PM
And the Lamar Odom types can guard him in the post?

I was just about to say that.

Rashard Lewis could have killed Gasol on the perimeter, but Gosal killed him in the interior

DocHolliday
06-28-2010, 02:32 PM
Yes Murphy/Rush should get it done, but if not the lottery protected 1st rounder could be used as a sweetner. Maybe they give us a 2nd rounder or some cash back in that scenario.

I'd see if throwing in JOB would get it done.

joew8302
06-28-2010, 02:42 PM
And the Lamar Odom types can guard him in the post?

Lamar Odom could guard him better in the post then vice-versa. Okafors best offense is rebounding his own miss at times.

flox
06-28-2010, 02:49 PM
TJ/Dunleavy + Rush/Hans

Pacersalltheway10
06-28-2010, 02:54 PM
For collison? : rush and future second round picks.

For collison and okafor?: murphy/Rush + second rounder

d_c
06-28-2010, 02:59 PM
And the Lamar Odom types can guard him in the post?

If I'm the opposing coach, I am not worried about who I guard Emeka Okafor with. I don't consider him an offensive threat. Not scared of the guy. You want to try to score on me by going to Emeka Okafor, go ahead. I dare you.

CableKC
06-28-2010, 03:00 PM
I'm not as enamored with Collison as most of you are....much less the likely price of taking on Okafor's contract on top of likely giving up BRush and/or a future 1st.

Dunleavy+BRush for Collison+Posey

is the max I would pay to get Collison.

d_c
06-28-2010, 03:03 PM
I'm not as enamored with Collison as most of you are....much less the likely price of taking on Okafor's contract on top of likely giving up BRush and/or a future 1st.

Dunleavy+BRush for Collison+Posey

is the max I would pay to get Collison.

There's no real reason for N.O. to get rid of Collison unless they can attach Okafor along with him. What's the point? They have a cheap, extremely reliable backup for CP3 for another 3 years. No reason to get rid of that unless they can get rid of Okafor in the process.

CableKC
06-28-2010, 03:08 PM
There's no real reason for N.O. to get rid of Collison unless they can attach Okafor along with him. What's the point? They have a cheap, extremely reliable backup for CP3 for another 3 years. No reason to get rid of that unless they can get rid of Okafor in the process.
I don't want Collison at the cost of taking on Okafor....for the very reasons that you suggest and for his overpaid contract.

If "No Okafor" means "No Collison".....then I'm cool with it. I'll look elsewhere for a PG. Where? I don't know....but I highly value having SalaryCap/Financial Flexibility.

The only way that I would want to take on another Granger-Level Long-Term contract is if I think that he's a Granger-Level Caliber Player....IMHO....Okafor isn't worth the contract that he received and certainly no Granger-Level Player.

Ozwalt72
06-28-2010, 03:08 PM
It just seems like, to avoid taking back Okafor, you'd need to provide some instant cap relief.

Convince some team to eat Posey's contract (Preferably Okafor...but yeah right) for our '11 first round pick and then swapping Collison for Rush.

Which doesn't even work, as Rush makes too much more than Collison. Dude needs a 50% pay raise.

Justin Tyme
06-28-2010, 03:09 PM
TJ/Dunleavy + Rush/Hans


I like your thinking on this. Trading Hansbrough for Collison I think would be hilarious. I don't think Bird would do it due to the fact it puts egg on his face for drafting Hansbrough.

Magic P
06-28-2010, 03:19 PM
I like your thinking on this. Trading Hansbrough for Collison I think would be hilarious. I don't think Bird would do it due to the fact it puts egg on his face for drafting Hansbrough.

If he would turn that deal down just to save face then i don't want him as GM any longer.

IndyPacer
06-28-2010, 03:32 PM
I'm not as opposed to taking on Okafor's contract as some because our situation at PF is also pretty awful. Okafor is overpaid, but who do we have there right now? Do we have a PF on the roster who is significantly better than Okafor? We need someone who can play inside and get garbage buckets. Collison's rookie contract would help counterbalance Okafor's nasty contract a bit, and we would get a pretty nice PG out of the deal.

I'd deal an expiring and either a player or a draft pick. I like Rush and don't like the idea of giving him up, but I'd probably do it if we could get two potential starters for one.

jeeves
06-28-2010, 04:12 PM
As a Hornets fan that has viewed these forums for years I can honestly say I couldn't tell you who currently leads the Pacers pre-game 3 hour training routine???

Problem solved.

For example here is a photo of Mike Dunleavy attempting Emeka Okafors favorite post move.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/02_03/madgeR2702_468x454.jpg

Sookie
06-28-2010, 04:14 PM
I'd give them Rush..

If they are insisting on taking Okafor's contract, (which they would) I'd give them Rush and a first rounder, but they're taking back Ford and Dun too..

Pacers2012
06-28-2010, 06:00 PM
The Pacers are trying to drop contracts to get young talent. Next summer they wont sign a big time player but, just a few solid players most likely. So trading for Collison along with Okafor makes no sense. Okafor will make 3million more in 2014 then what Murphy makes this next year. I like Collison and is first on my Pg wish list but, if we have to take Okafor then no thanks. Ill keep Murphy and watch him walk next year or be traded.

We will need another big guy once murphy and foster are gone though. If we don't get one in a trade here are next years summer options.

Al Horford RFA
Glen Davis FA
Kendrick Perkins FA
Joakim Noah RFA
Leon Powe FA
Kenyon Martin FA ETO
Zach Randolph FA
Yi Jianlian RFA
David West FA ETO
Nick Collison FA
Nenad Krstic FA
Samuel Dalembert FA
Joel Pryzbilla FA
Greg Oden RFA no thanks
Carl Landry FA
Tim Duncan FA

Taterhead
06-28-2010, 06:20 PM
The Pacers are trying to drop contracts to get young talent. Next summer they wont sign a big time player but, just a few solid players most likely. So trading for Collison along with Okafor makes no sense. Okafor will make 3million more in 2014 then what Murphy makes this next year. I like Collison and is first on my Pg wish list but, if we have to take Okafor then no thanks. Ill keep Murphy and watch him walk next year or be traded.

We will need another big guy once murphy and foster are gone though. If we don't get one in a trade here are next years summer options.

Al Horford RFA
Glen Davis FA
Kendrick Perkins FA
Joakim Noah RFA
Leon Powe FA
Kenyon Martin FA ETO
Zach Randolph FA
Yi Jianlian RFA
David West FA ETO
Nick Collison FA
Nenad Krstic FA
Samuel Dalembert FA
Joel Pryzbilla FA
Greg Oden RFA no thanks
Carl Landry FA
Tim Duncan FA

Seriously, how many of those guys on that list are better than Okafor anyways?

West and Martin are not terminating their deals. Oden and Horford are RFA's and we would have to overpay to get them away from their current teams. So why save money for that crap? And you still don't have your PG!!!! Outside of Landry, that list is garbage. And if Landry has any kind of season next year he is gonna be a very hot commodity next summer and will cost you.

Okafor and Collison are better than anything the Pacers will get next summer for 15 million dollars, which is their combined salaries. I don't view it like most on here. Yes we overpay Okafor, but we underpay Collison to balance it out in total. Collison is under contract for 3 more years at <6 million dollars total. He is worth a lot more than that if he is your starting PG. So just pretend your taking 6 million of Okafors salary and using it on Collison if it helps you and move on with your life, lol.

BRushWithDeath
06-28-2010, 06:22 PM
As a Hornets fan that has viewed these forums for years I can honestly say I couldn't tell you who currently leads the Pacers pre-game 3 hour training routine???

Problem solved.

For example here is a photo of Mike Dunleavy attempting Emeka Okafors favorite post move.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/02_03/madgeR2702_468x454.jpg

I don't get it.

joew8302
06-28-2010, 06:24 PM
I don't get it.

Okafor was lambasted in Charlotte by Larry Brown for working harder on his stretching routine (which was very extensive) than his basketball skills. It is not surprise he was shipped out the following season.

Justin Tyme
06-28-2010, 06:47 PM
Seriously, how many of those guys on that list are better than Okafor anyways?

West and Martin are not terminating their deals. Oden and Horford are RFA's and we would have to overpay to get them away from their current teams. So why save money for that crap? And you still don't have your PG!!!! Outside of Landry, that list is garbage. And if Landry has any kind of season next year he is gonna be a very hot commodity next summer and will cost you.

Okafor and Collison are better than anything the Pacers will get next summer for 15 million dollars, which is their combined salaries. I don't view it like most on here. Yes we overpay Okafor, but we underpay Collison to balance it out in total. Collison is under contract for 3 more years at <6 million dollars total. He is worth a lot more than that if he is your starting PG. So just pretend your taking 6 million of Okafors salary and using it on Collison if it helps you and move on with your life, lol.


Since when is Horford garbage?

Taterhead
06-28-2010, 10:50 PM
Since when is Horford garbage?

Where did I say he was? I said he was RFA and we won't get him.

Of the guys we legitimately have a chance at, only Landry is somebody I would even want. Horford isn't even a realistic option, IMO.

flox
06-28-2010, 10:52 PM
I like your thinking on this. Trading Hansbrough for Collison I think would be hilarious. I don't think Bird would do it due to the fact it puts egg on his face for drafting Hansbrough.

True. I agree. Sadly if this was the offer from them to us I don't think we'd do it.

=/

Ozwalt72
06-28-2010, 10:54 PM
Okafor and Collison are better than anything the Pacers will get next summer for 15 million dollars, which is their combined salaries. I don't view it like most on here. Yes we overpay Okafor, but we underpay Collison to balance it out in total. Collison is under contract for 3 more years at <6 million dollars total. He is worth a lot more than that if he is your starting PG. So just pretend your taking 6 million of Okafors salary and using it on Collison if it helps you and move on with your life, lol.

Look at what teams like Washington and OKC were able to do with their cap space as recent as this draft.

The thought is that we can benefit much the same way.

Taterhead
06-28-2010, 10:59 PM
Look at what teams like Washington and OKC were able to do with their cap space as recent as this draft.

The thought is that we can benefit much the same way.

Kirk Hinrich? Morris Peterson?

Sorry, I don't think either of those guys are that good.

Seriously though, Okafor/Collison as a package is better than either of those deals those teams got.

Eleazar
06-28-2010, 11:41 PM
To get Collison I would only give up either Rush or one of our expiring contracts, and nothing more. No Rush and an expiring, no Rush and a 1st(seriously we are trying to rebuild, we need as many first round picks as possible), or expiring and 1st. I could easily be convinced of throwing in some second rounders, but I don't put much value on second rounders outside the first 5 to 10 drafted.

Ozwalt72
06-29-2010, 12:09 AM
Kirk Hinrich? Morris Peterson?

Sorry, I don't think either of those guys are that good.

Seriously though, Okafor/Collison as a package is better than either of those deals those teams got.

More like: Oklahoma City, by taking on the contract of Morris Peterson they were able to trade up to pick their guy. By taking on Daquan Cook they were able to grab an extra first. Or last year, where they received Eric Maynor for taking on the contract of an injured Matt Harpring that could possibly be covered by insurance.

And Washington took on Hinrich, who isn't a bad player, and received pick number 17 in the draft.

Or how about Marcus Camby? He went from the Nuggets to the Clippers because of CAP SPACE.

I'd say Camby for a 2nd rounder is more cost effective than Okafor/Collison for an expiring and a prospect

Taterhead
06-29-2010, 02:19 AM
Well , we will just have to disagree then. I think Collison is a potential all star PG and a proven talent. And I just don't think anything those teams got equals to that in terms of the importance to playing winning basketball. Camby is a nice player, moving up a few spots in the draft is nice as well. But adding a talent like Collison on a team STARVING for a PG is a HUGE upgrade at the most important position on the floor.

None of the moves you've mentioned are reshaping those franchises. Adding Collison fills our biggest need. I would still rather have Okafor/Collison as a package than anything those teams got.

PacersPride
06-29-2010, 02:44 AM
great thread by the way.

ive heard next years draft class is loaded with point gaurds.. can anyone confirm?

if so, im not willing to overpay for collison, the option is there to hold our ground and continue to build through the draft, maybe something else comes along and we move an expiring and if not we have cap space to to make moves like the ones listed below (ie. the type where we take a contract for a draft pick).

with that said, i would strongly consider taking on collison/ okafor because it solves two issues. obviously point gaurd and secondly a solid power forward albeit overpaid. i do think okafor would play well next to hibbert. okafor could kinda be like dale davis with a little bit more offense.. thats not really saying much.

im very hesitant in moving rush, and even more hesitant in sending out draft picks.

seems like NO's would prefer to move posey's contract even more than okafors. poseys is 2 yrs remaining at 6.5 million, not terrible but still.

Collison/ Okafor/ Posey = 19 million. NO's does not want to enter the LT.

my offer in return would be as follows:

Murphy, Ford, 2nd rounder = 19.5 (should keep them under the LT)
or
Ford, Foster, D Jones or Solo

the point is.. they add posey to the deal and we take on two contracts that are not great. posey can backup granger so there is value and we let him expire in two season, or deal him after next.

there are sooooo many options with NO's I really think something will be done.

to answer the question. the max i would give up is any combo of the expirings and a second rounder.

no to rush, no to a first rounder. i dont think NO's has much value in Rush anyways, and a first rounder is not an option if you ask me. we need to keep those picks.

by adding posey to the return in a trade, the potential of Collison is balanced out by the bad contract in Posey, and Okafor is talent that is slightly overpaid.

NO's then has ample cap space next year with Peja's expiring of 13 million to go out and pursue a Durant, who would at least have to be intrigued playing with Chris Paul.

I think this is the best deal either team will see all summer.

PacersPride
06-29-2010, 02:51 AM
one more thing. ive been suggesting several options to hornets fans on espn/realgm and the overall consensus is they would like to include Songalia as well who i believe expires next season and makes 5 million. the reason to move songalia, they want to sign an MLE FA.

DC, Okafor, Posey, Songalia = 24 million

in exchange for

Murphy/ Ford/ Solo = 20 million
or
Dun/Foster/Solo = 17.5 which might be close as well. i cant remember what they were wanting in return but it was something to this effect where they could sign an MLE.

im down with taking back all 4 players and giving up whatever combo they want in expirings along with a 2nd rounder if needed.

and from the response i rec'd its very reasonable to believe NO's would do it.

Pacers roster would be as follows:

pg: Collison, Price,
sg: Rush, George, Jones
sf: Granger, Posey
pf: Okafor, Hansbrough, McBob
c: Hibbert, Songalia

add murphy, dunleavy, foster, or ford back in after they determine which players to take. my guess would be murphy, solo, ford leaving us foster and dunleavy.

flox
06-29-2010, 02:31 PM
Well , we will just have to disagree then. I think Collison is a potential all star PG and a proven talent. And I just don't think anything those teams got equals to that in terms of the importance to playing winning basketball. Camby is a nice player, moving up a few spots in the draft is nice as well. But adding a talent like Collison on a team STARVING for a PG is a HUGE upgrade at the most important position on the floor.

None of the moves you've mentioned are reshaping those franchises. Adding Collison fills our biggest need. I would still rather have Okafor/Collison as a package than anything those teams got.

Why are you valuing Collison as an all star when after only one season is way too quick to judge. He hasn't shown an out of the world understanding of the game or anything that can label him as potential all star. I mean, sure, if you really think that way, yes then that trade makes sense.

But I still think it's way to early to call him an all-star. He hasn't shown it yet. Sure, he had a great first season, but that's it. Future all star based off of that one season?

It's too early to call. So for a franchise to risk taking Okafor for that? I can't see it being done.

While he does fill a hole immediately and such, yes, that would be nice, but we would be going all in on this.

Taterhead
06-29-2010, 07:33 PM
Because I watched him play several times on league pass last year while Paul was out. It is just my personal opinion. But tell me this......how many players have games of 20 assists as a rookie? He also had games of 18 and 15 assists, and had 14 assists 4 times. The kid has shown plenty to think he is going to be an all star, he did this as a part time starter as a rookie. And that is not a team loaded with scorers either, he earned those assists.

BTW, how are we going "all in", that is such a dramatic take on this. We would still be about 10 million under the cap, and 20 million under the tax next year. Hardly all in if you ask me.

flox
06-29-2010, 07:44 PM
Because I watched him play several times on league pass last year while Paul was out. It is just my personal opinion. But tell me this......how many players have games of 20 assists as a rookie? He also had games of 18 and 15 assists, and had 14 assists 4 times. The kid has shown plenty to think he is going to be an all star, he did this as a part time starter as a rookie. And that is not a team loaded with scorers either, he earned those assists.

BTW, how are we going "all in", that is suck a dramatic take on this. We would still be about 10 million under the cap, and 20 million under the tax next year. Hardly all in if you ask me.

I'm not going to check, but I'm not impressed. He had great weapons on that team. Peja, Mo Pete, Thornton, West, those are all guys you can pass the ball too and they can score immediately after the pass.

As for how we are going all in? For one thing, we'd be losing one of our pieces of contract + value (murphy) into a piece that can't be moved until the last year of the deal while holding onto the dead pieces that even if we just let them expire, will still not be as valuable once we add 2 first round picks (this year's and next years) onto the books, that could wipe our an entire expiring contract on it's own. When you add all of that up then we will be taking a huge gamble on a 2nd year PG who could regress or show his true colors once he is not fed the royal jelly to develop like he was in New Orleans.

So he had a few good games playing against the warriors or clippers while given the chance to play for nearly 48 minutes a night and on a team where the point guard is expected to dominate the ball and the system is in place around Paul already.

It's still too early to call him anything close to an all-star, much less starter material.

Taterhead
06-29-2010, 07:56 PM
I'm not going to check, but I'm not impressed. He had great weapons on that team. Peja, Mo Pete, Thornton, West, those are all guys you can pass the ball too and they can score immediately after the pass.

As for how we are going all in? For one thing, we'd be losing one of our pieces of contract + value (murphy) into a piece that can't be moved until the last year of the deal while holding onto the dead pieces that even if we just let them expire, will still not be as valuable once we add 2 first round picks (this year's and next years) onto the books, that could wipe our an entire expiring contract on it's own. When you add all of that up then we will be taking a huge gamble on a 2nd year PG who could regress or show his true colors once he is not fed the royal jelly to develop like he was in New Orleans.

So he had a few good games playing against the warriors or clippers while given the chance to play for nearly 48 minutes a night and on a team where the point guard is expected to dominate the ball and the system is in place around Paul already.

It's still too early to call him anything close to an all-star, much less starter material.

You're not impressed by that? Wow. What would it take to impress you exactly? He did a great job, what else is he supposed to do. He performed admirably in Pauls absence. You act like it's not impressive because he got a lot of minutes? Because he had a couple great games against Memphis? He dominated at times as a rookie. I guess Brandon Jennings didn't impress you either?

We are not going all in at all, that is ridiculous. We would still have major flexibility even with this move. We have 45 million coming off the books next year, this trade takes up a third of that. Still 30 million coming off the books is MAJOR flexibility.

Sookie
06-29-2010, 08:06 PM
You're not impressed by that? Wow. What would it take to impress you exactly? He did a great job, what else is he supposed to do. He performed admirably in Pauls absence. You act like it's not impressive because he got a lot of minutes? Because he had a couple great games against Memphis? He dominated at times as a rookie. I guess Brandon Jennings didn't impress you either?

We are not going all in at all, that is ridiculous. We would still have major flexibility even with this move. We have 45 million coming off the books next year, this trade takes up a third of that. Still 30 million coming off the books is MAJOR flexibility.

He did do a good job, but given the circumstances I personally think

Ty Lawson, Johnny Flynn, AJ Price, and Eric Maynor would have been able to do the same thing.

That's not to say that Collison wouldn't be good to have. As I said, having two young PGs fighting to be the starter..not a bad thing for the Pacers. But I don't expect any of those five PGs to end up so much better than any of the others that we need to give up Rush plus our best expiring to get him. (So as I said...they want us to take Okafor's contract..they're taking back Ford.)

flox
06-29-2010, 08:07 PM
You're not impressed by that? Wow. What would it take to impress you exactly? He did a great job, what else is he supposed to do. He performed admirably in Pauls absence. You act like it's not impressive because he got a lot of minutes? Because he had a couple great games against Memphis? He dominated at times as a rookie. I guess Brandon Jennings didn't impress you either?

We are not going all in at all, that is ridiculous. We would still have major flexibility even with this move. We have 45 million coming off the books next year, this trade takes up a third of that. Still 30 million coming off the books is MAJOR flexibility.

Jennings is different. He came into a situation where there was very little talent on the team and made that team very good.

Collison on the other hand came into a situation where he was able to play as minutes as he wanted and didn't have to carry a team and had outlets to play with. That's much less impressive.

He'd have to play like Evans/Jennings/Curry to be considered a potential all star in the future, and it's not like people are saying that about Evans/Jennings/Curry. They fear Evans will be like Steve Francis, Curry is on the warriors, and Jennings is really good but his percentages are still pretty low. They are good talents and are potential all stars, and all were pretty impressive.

Collison was not at their level at all. So I would rate them below those three and say that if we are taking in 11 million dollars in salary with a long term commitment, while losing our best asset in Murphy, while moving up to around 38-40 million in payroll, is probably not worth it.

This would be devastating if the cap becomes 50 million or less next year- which is very possible if the economy gets worse.

pacers74
06-29-2010, 08:15 PM
We are going to overpay for someone. If we wait until next summer and let all of the contracts expire, we wil still overpay for someone. There is no that we will be able to sign next summer that will be worth a max contract or anything close.
If we can pick up 2 starters, one who could be our answer at the much needed point, then you do it and never look back.
On a side note, there have been so many threads about this that I feel like I have typed this a hundered times before.

Eleazar
06-29-2010, 09:48 PM
Because I watched him play several times on league pass last year while Paul was out. It is just my personal opinion. But tell me this......how many players have games of 20 assists as a rookie? He also had games of 18 and 15 assists, and had 14 assists 4 times. The kid has shown plenty to think he is going to be an all star, he did this as a part time starter as a rookie. And that is not a team loaded with scorers either, he earned those assists.

BTW, how are we going "all in", that is such a dramatic take on this. We would still be about 10 million under the cap, and 20 million under the tax next year. Hardly all in if you ask me.

The last one I remember was Jamal Tinsley, I think he almost broke the all-time single game record for assists, but didn't quite get that many assists.

Marlin
06-29-2010, 10:00 PM
The last one I remember was Jamal Tinsley, I think he almost broke the all-time single game record for assists, but didn't quite get that many assists.

Yeah, Jamaal went for 23 ast against the Wizards, in front of Jordan. That's when we tought we had something special :(

Pacersalltheway10
06-29-2010, 10:21 PM
NO gives: Emeka Okafor, Darren collison
NO gets: Al Jefferson, B-Rush

MIN gives: Al Jefferson
MIN gets: Emeka Okafor

IND gives: B-Rush
IND gets: Darren Collison

A possible 3 way trade for Collsion without taking back Okafor or giving up our expirings. We could avoid taking Okafor's contract if we make it a 3 team trade possibly.

from waht i have heard from hornets forums is that they are interested in Al Jefferson. and MIN is looking to get rid of Al and in return they get a solid defender and double double center ( if thats what Okafor really is). and all the Pacers give up is Brandon Rush and the only thing they get back is collison.

PacersPride
06-29-2010, 10:44 PM
newsflash, no one really wants rush including most pacer fans. we offerred rush/ford for nazr,augustine, henderson and the hornets said no. i think that says alot about rushs value. personally i want to keep the guy. giving up trade picks or young players seems like a bad move for a small market team.

also, in regard to all these expirings. so many teams have cap space due to the Bron-Bron sweepstakes that the losers in free agency will be able to compete with us for lop-sided trades and free agents. i think were gonna end up being empty-handed when all these expirings walk.

im guessing NO's is kinda aware of this as well.

* apologies for the duplicate posts on Collison, thought this thread was dormant when i started the other one.

i really think pacer fans need to realize, were not the only team with ample cap space now or in the future. chicago, new jersey, miami, new york, and im sure there are others who do not land a big free agent will look to take on salary for potentially good players.

pacers will have to build through the draft so it could be awhile before we get back to the postseason.

graphic-er
06-29-2010, 11:13 PM
Jennings is different. He came into a situation where there was very little talent on the team and made that team very good.

Collison on the other hand came into a situation where he was able to play as minutes as he wanted and didn't have to carry a team and had outlets to play with. That's much less impressive.

He'd have to play like Evans/Jennings/Curry to be considered a potential all star in the future, and it's not like people are saying that about Evans/Jennings/Curry. They fear Evans will be like Steve Francis, Curry is on the warriors, and Jennings is really good but his percentages are still pretty low. They are good talents and are potential all stars, and all were pretty impressive.

Collison was not at their level at all. So I would rate them below those three and say that if we are taking in 11 million dollars in salary with a long term commitment, while losing our best asset in Murphy, while moving up to around 38-40 million in payroll, is probably not worth it.

This would be devastating if the cap becomes 50 million or less next year- which is very possible if the economy gets worse.

Actually if you go back and look at the game logs, on nights that he started and played over 30 minutes he put up better numbers than all the players you mentioned. That's almost have a season's worth of games. Kid is legit.

Pacersalltheway10
06-29-2010, 11:13 PM
the bobcats trade for Ford and Rush was to close to the trade deadline to even tell anything.the bobcats said they would revisit all trades anyway. the Spurs are or were interested in rush. a lot of teams like his defence. and the hornets need wing players. .

Taterhead
06-29-2010, 11:21 PM
The last one I remember was Jamal Tinsley, I think he almost broke the all-time single game record for assists, but didn't quite get that many assists.

Yeah and I think everyone agrees Jamaal had the talent to be an all star level PG. It was his 10 cent brain and lack of character that did him in. He is a special passer though, always has been.

Oh well, me and flox just disagree I guess. I think Collison played every bit as good as Jennings while he started, better in MOST areas. And the numbers back it up. Jennings is on a solid team in a weaker conference too. Collison shot great percentages, had great assist numbers, was extremely consistant, and did it all as a rookie. Tyreke Evans is an absolute stud 2 guard, and a pretty damn good PG too. I don't think anybody in the NBA thinks Tyreke is Steve Francis. He doesn't play anything like Francis. And Francis was a great player until injuries took him out anyways. Collison is leagues better than Curry. I don't really know what flox expects of a rookie PG to show All Star ability? To me you show consistency putting up big numbers and being a difference maker on the floor, then you have All Star capability. Collison did that.


Actually if you go back and look at the game logs, on nights that he started and played over 30 minutes he put up better numbers than all the players you mentioned. That's almost have a season's worth of games. Kid is legit.

He definitely did. I think he should do some research before he speaks. Towards the end of the season Collison was one of the top PGs in the entire league. Chris Paul wouldn't have done a whole lot better than Collison himself. Also, since when is logging those kind of minutes an advantage for a rookie? What happened to the rookie wall? This kid is special in my opinion.

Here are his averages for the months he took over the starting role for good last year....

January: He had great games vs. (Utah, IND, PHO, @ORL, @CLE, @MIL, @DAL)
21.6 PPG (50% FG; 38% 3FG) 8.3 APG 3.9 RPG 1.8 SPG

February: He had great games vs. (SAx2, DEN, GSx2, @PHO, LAC, CLE, POR, LAL)

16.9 PPG (50% FG; 49% 3FG) 9.1 APG 2.9 RPG 1.3 SPG

March: He had great games vs. (Utah, CHA, MIN, HOU)

19.0 PPG (53% FG; 55% 3FG) 7.7 APG 3.2 RPG 1.3 SPG

He even logged 30+ MPG for 6 games in a row at the end of October (played PHO, ATL, @MIA, MIL, @SAC and @LAL) and his numbers in that stretch were....

16.0 PPG 6.8 APG 3.7 RPG 1.0 SPG

The only weakness he has shown is high turnover numbers. But his ratio was still 2:1. And he showed major improvement as the season went on.

jeffg-body
06-29-2010, 11:43 PM
If they want us to take back Okafor and his albatross of a contract I would only be willing to part with Murphy, Solo, and a second round pick. I don't see this as important to try to ship our future 1st round picks or Rush. Now if it were not to include Okafor I would go with try to do a trade somehow with a Rush for Collison straight up. If they don't want to go that way with us we need to be patient and see what else is out there.

PacersPride
06-30-2010, 01:24 AM
thats kinda the problem. what else is out there? and with multiple teams having cap space, how do the pacers expect to acquire any good players?

look forward to the lottery fellas, cause thats where were headed for awhile. dont like being negative its true.

pacer fans are getting hesitant to pay a 5 mill LT for one season in order to acquire a solid young point gaurd.

okafor/collisons contract average out to be 7 mill per player for the next 3 years. is collison and okafor not worth 7 mill combined.

we give up Ford/Foster @ 14.5 in return for Collison, Okafor, Posey @ 19 mill. and clear cap room for the hornets to sign an MLE, which is what ive been told they want. they get a replacement for collison and okafor, and we can add a 2nd rounder.

we dont give up rush or a first rounder. next season Dun/Murph come off the books at 21 million and were under the cap for awhile. i really dont see a better alternative.

Okafor is worth 7 mill, and if collison is legit his value is worth 7 mill as well cause both are locked in for the next 3 years.

i just dont see what were going to get in free agency next year.. or a better trade that will come along than this if it were accepted by NO's. if you think we can do better than this i would love to hear it.

would this trade not make fans more willing to go to conseco? i know i would.

* edit
maybe we add D Jones which frees up a little bit more space in the long run. i dont know fellas, i just think w/o this deal were not gonna be in the playoffs for awhile. i dont need collison to be an all-star, but 15 pts, 8 assists a game average next season for a second year player is good enough for me.

NappyRootz
06-30-2010, 01:48 AM
thats kinda the problem. what else is out there? and with multiple teams having cap space, how do the pacers expect to acquire any good players?

look forward to the lottery fellas, cause thats where were headed for awhile. dont like being negative its true.

pacer fans are getting hesitant to pay a 5 mill LT for one season in order to acquire a solid young point gaurd.

okafor/collisons contract average out to be 7 mill per player for the next 3 years. is collison and okafor not worth 7 mill combined.

we give up Ford/Foster @ 14.5 in return for Collison, Okafor, Posey @ 19 mill. and clear cap room for the hornets to sign an MLE, which is what ive been told they want. they get a replacement for collison and okafor, and we can add a 2nd rounder.

we dont give up rush or a first rounder. next season Dun/Murph come off the books at 21 million and were under the cap for awhile. i really dont see a better alternative.

Okafor is worth 7 mill, and if collison is legit his value is worth 7 mill as well cause both are locked in for the next 3 years.

i just dont see what were going to get in free agency next year.. or a better trade that will come along than this if it were accepted by NO's. if you think we can do better than this i would love to hear it.

would this trade not make fans more willing to go to conseco? i know i would.

No franchise save the Knicks is willing to go over tax threshold right now with league revenues on a significant downswing even with great Finals ratings.

Personally, I would do a Ford-Murphy for Okafor, Collison and Posey which probably keeps both teams under tax limits. Not real sure why they would want to use their MLE anyway. They would be left with Paul, Peja and West and some young guys. There not making the playoffs either way most likely. Im a little surprised there isnt more buzz surrrounding a Chris Paul trade where Okafor and Posey are dumped as well.

But if they wouldrather keep Paul as teh cornerstone to build around, getting out of $65mm obligations to Okafor and Posey should be worth giving up on Collison.

Still not sure if Simon signs off on that though............kinda doubt it with CIB negotiations still looming large and Collison isnt exactly a sure fire All Star PG either.

aceace
06-30-2010, 02:39 AM
I'm not as enamored with Collison as most of you are....much less the likely price of taking on Okafor's contract on top of likely giving up BRush and/or a future 1st.

Dunleavy+BRush for Collison+Posey

is the max I would pay to get Collison.You do understand that we haven't had a PG since Tinsleys '05 season and that Collison had a lot of double figure assist games while Paul was out. My question to you is who out there is a better option than Collison?

flox
06-30-2010, 03:16 AM
Actually if you go back and look at the game logs, on nights that he started and played over 30 minutes he put up better numbers than all the players you mentioned. That's almost have a season's worth of games. Kid is legit.
No I was aware. But the point still stands that he had a great team to do it on. I don't think that it was anything special.




Oh well, me and flox just disagree I guess. I think Collison played every bit as good as Jennings while he started, better in MOST areas. And the numbers back it up. Jennings is on a solid team in a weaker conference too. Collison shot great percentages, had great assist numbers, was extremely consistant, and did it all as a rookie. Tyreke Evans is an absolute stud 2 guard, and a pretty damn good PG too. I don't think anybody in the NBA thinks Tyreke is Steve Francis. He doesn't play anything like Francis. And Francis was a great player until injuries took him out anyways. Collison is leagues better than Curry. I don't really know what flox expects of a rookie PG to show All Star ability? To me you show consistency putting up big numbers and being a difference maker on the floor, then you have All Star capability. Collison did that.
He definitely did. I think he should do some research before he speaks. Towards the end of the season Collison was one of the top PGs in the entire league. Chris Paul wouldn't have done a whole lot better than Collison himself. Also, since when is logging those kind of minutes an advantage for a rookie? What happened to the rookie wall? This kid is special in my opinion.

Here are his averages for the months he took over the starting role for good last year....

January: He had great games vs. (Utah, IND, PHO, @ORL, @CLE, @MIL, @DAL)
21.6 PPG (50% FG; 38% 3FG) 8.3 APG 3.9 RPG 1.8 SPG

February: He had great games vs. (SAx2, DEN, GSx2, @PHO, LAC, CLE, POR, LAL)

16.9 PPG (50% FG; 49% 3FG) 9.1 APG 2.9 RPG 1.3 SPG

March: He had great games vs. (Utah, CHA, MIN, HOU)

19.0 PPG (53% FG; 55% 3FG) 7.7 APG 3.2 RPG 1.3 SPG

He even logged 30+ MPG for 6 games in a row at the end of October (played PHO, ATL, @MIA, MIL, @SAC and @LAL) and his numbers in that stretch were....

16.0 PPG 6.8 APG 3.7 RPG 1.0 SPG

The only weakness he has shown is high turnover numbers. But his ratio was still 2:1. And he showed major improvement as the season went on.

All of that is something that I know, but ultimately did he lead his team to the playoffs? Did he get more than 17 points in ROY voting? Did he show enough to be even considered as much as the first three players in ROY voting?

No. That's because people were always cognisant of the fact of the circumstances he was put in, the amount of minutes he played, the situation he was in, the amount of victories and how much he made the team really better.

It's way to early to call him a future all star when he hasn't been able to outplay Curry, Evans, and Jennings and there can be still doubts that they are future all stars.

If we hold Collison to the same standards, he doesn't pass the test- he was on a much better team, yet Jennings did more with less, Evans carried the Kings, and Curry was utterly ridiculous past Jan 1st. Collison did not impress in the same way.

PacersPride
06-30-2010, 03:51 AM
No I was aware. But the point still stands that he had a great team to do it on. I don't think that it was anything special.


your talking about the hornets right and using the word great??? what other all-stars do they have besides paul.

hornets suck man to put it bluntly. they drafted right behind the pacers. i mean c'mon if your gonna post, at least make it valid.

flox
06-30-2010, 04:12 AM
your talking about the hornets right and using the word great??? what other all-stars do they have besides paul.

hornets suck man to put it bluntly. they drafted right behind the pacers. i mean c'mon if your gonna post, at least make it valid.

Uh...lets try this.

Collison/MoPete/Peja/West/Okafor
Jennings/Salmons/Delfino/MbahMoute/Bogut
Curry/Ellis/Morrow/Mags/Big man by committee
Evans/Udrih/Greene/Thompson/Hawes.

And are we going to ignore that the warriors and kings drafted 5/6?

#31MillerTime
06-30-2010, 04:16 AM
I really do love Collison and would love to get him. But what is the maximum you would give? I would lay three pieces on the table and tell New Orleans to pick whichever two they wanted. The three would be.

Rush, taking Okafor, Paul George

I would think any more than two of these three would be overpaying.

Yeah but we gotta give the Rookie Paul George a chance I think he has great potential in his game. And watching his shot it looks so pure. I think George could be a big star at Indy.

Taterhead
06-30-2010, 01:37 PM
No I was aware. But the point still stands that he had a great team to do it on. I don't think that it was anything special.



All of that is something that I know, but ultimately did he lead his team to the playoffs? Did he get more than 17 points in ROY voting? Did he show enough to be even considered as much as the first three players in ROY voting?

No. That's because people were always cognisant of the fact of the circumstances he was put in, the amount of minutes he played, the situation he was in, the amount of victories and how much he made the team really better.

It's way to early to call him a future all star when he hasn't been able to outplay Curry, Evans, and Jennings and there can be still doubts that they are future all stars.

If we hold Collison to the same standards, he doesn't pass the test- he was on a much better team, yet Jennings did more with less, Evans carried the Kings, and Curry was utterly ridiculous past Jan 1st. Collison did not impress in the same way.

I never called him a future All Star. All I said was he has that potential. And I think you have to be drunk, or borderline brain dead not to agree that at least the potential is there.

He got 17 points in the ROY voting despite not even starting half the year (37 games)! That is an accomplishment of itself! Jennings was handed a starting role, Curry and Evans were lottery picks and played significant minutes from the jump. None of those guys had Chris freaking Paul to compete with for minutes. Collison flew under the radar because nobody paid attention to NO once Paul went down. He lead a team with a horrible roster without Paul, to a near .500 record without one of the top 10 players in the entire league. Those a great accomplishments. By your own view, Chris Paul should get NO credit because he plays in the same system, and puts up around the same numbers with the same players. You say that is a great roster, well then look at the numbers, cause Collison was their best player.

Seriously, I think it's pretty clear you didn't watch him at all last year. You throw out Peja Stojakovic and Mo Pete like they are good players still. Well Peja averaged around 13 points last year on 40% shooting, in 62 games. And Mo Pete only played 46 games, averaged around 7 points on 38% from the field. That roster is very weak with no quality depth at any position outside of PG with a healthy Chris Paul.



Uh...lets try this.

Collison/MoPete/Peja/West/Okafor
Jennings/Salmons/Delfino/MbahMoute/Bogut
Curry/Ellis/Morrow/Mags/Big man by committee
Evans/Udrih/Greene/Thompson/Hawes.

And are we going to ignore that the warriors and kings drafted 5/6?

Dude, Monta Ellis averaged as many points as Peja, MoPete and Thornton COMBINED! You also leave out Biedrins, Azuibuike and Anthony Randolph. A healthy Golden State roster is every bit as talented as OKC's without Paul. Or at least not far behind.

The Bucks roster is much better than OKC without Paul. Salmons is better than any wing the Hornets have. Ilyasova is too. Bogut is better than any big on the Hornets, David West included. He was great last year. You conveniently left out Ilyasova, Kurt Thomas, and Jerry Stackhouse too. Plus Michael Redd for almost 20 games. The Bucks have a good roster.

The only one I'll give you is Evans. Sacramento's roster is about equal to OKC without Paul. He was the best player in the entire draft from last year. Big freaking deal if he is not as good as Evans. They both can be good you know. They could both be all stars someday. But even he didn't put up as good a numbers as Collison when he started.

The funny thing is, you brag about NO's roster. But you don't want two of their best players from last year.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Because this horse has been beaten to death.

CableKC
06-30-2010, 01:58 PM
You do understand that we haven't had a PG since Tinsleys '05 season and that Collison had a lot of double figure assist games while Paul was out. My question to you is who out there is a better option than Collison?
Felton...but he'll probably be overpaid by the Knicks or Heat.

You have to understand, I ( and I suspect many others that oppose making a Collison+Okafor trade ) have no problem with Collison the Player....clearly he put up great #s and may or may not be a starting PG for the future. I have a problem with Collison and the "Buy 1 PG prospect get 1 Overpaid Big Man" price tag that is attached to his forehead to take on Okafor.

As I said before....if the price tag Collison+Posey for BRush+Expiring Contract...I'd have no problem taking that on. If the Hornets balk at that and say no....then I would prefer to wait it out.

I'm not going to take Collison+Okafor just because Collison appears to be the best PG that we could get and we are that desperate to get a PG. The price tag is simply too high. I know that many here don't care about the SalaryCap and Financial Implications of taking on a $11 to 14 mil a year over the next 4 seasons, but I ( and many here ) do not take that lightly given the SalaryCap/Financial Handcuffs that were put on with the Big4 Contracts over the last 2-3 seasons.

I'd rather sit through another year of PG rentals then acquire Collison at the cost of wasting valuable Capspace on another Overpaid Big Man.

NappyRootz
06-30-2010, 04:18 PM
The other problem with Okafor is that he will take away devolpmental minutes from Tyler, McBob and Hibbert. Your stuck with the guy for 4 years at a huge # so you feel as though you have to play him.

At the end of the day, we arent winning any meaningful games next year anyway, so why not develop some talent, allow the expirings to expire or to be dealt for picks and/or young talent, and forget about going on any late season winning streaks that take you out of the top 5 picks.

If you can get a Felton or a Collison and only take back an extra year of a bad contract thats one thing but Okafors deal is tough to take. Let the Knicks do that deal.

Eleazar
06-30-2010, 05:05 PM
The is only one problem with trading expirings for young talent/picks is that chances are you are going to have to take back some kind of over-payed player simply because if we trade Ford, Murphy, or Dunleavy their contracts are too big to be able to bring back just young talent. I'm not saying that we should trade for another Murphy like contract, like what would happen with Okafor, but we would have to take back a bad contract hopefully it just won't be as bad as what we currently have. Foster bad may be ok, but Murphy bad is unacceptable.

speakout4
06-30-2010, 05:07 PM
Seriously, how many of those guys on that list are better than Okafor anyways?

West and Martin are not terminating their deals. Oden and Horford are RFA's and we would have to overpay to get them away from their current teams. So why save money for that crap? And you still don't have your PG!!!! Outside of Landry, that list is garbage. And if Landry has any kind of season next year he is gonna be a very hot commodity next summer and will cost you.

Okafor and Collison are better than anything the Pacers will get next summer for 15 million dollars, which is their combined salaries. I don't view it like most on here. Yes we overpay Okafor, but we underpay Collison to balance it out in total. Collison is under contract for 3 more years at <6 million dollars total. He is worth a lot more than that if he is your starting PG. So just pretend your taking 6 million of Okafors salary and using it on Collison if it helps you and move on with your life, lol.
it's not just free agents that will be available but guys whom teams need to unload to get under the LT. That's where we mine good players next summer.

Taterhead
06-30-2010, 06:18 PM
it's not just free agents that will be available but guys whom teams need to unload to get under the LT. That's where we mine good players next summer.

I would love an example of a team giving away top players to get under the tax. I don't think it happens. There are less than 10 teams over the tax right now. And almost all of those teams are contenders that are not going to just be giving away key pieces. Who are these teams that are gonna be giving away players?

The Lakers, Cavs (only if they resign Lebron), Mavericks (Only if they resign Nowitski) and the Magic are the only teams over the tax right now who will still be over the tax at this time next year. So you have four teams potentially that could gain luxury tax breathing room by dealing for one of our expiring deals. And all those teams are going to be looking to contend next year. So why would they give us one of their better players during a playoff run? And even if you get draft picks from these teams, they are gonna be low first rounders.

The trades involving players getting traded for nothing that were made this year involved Mo Peterson, CDR, Daquean Cook and Kirk Hinrich. Hardly anything to get excited about.

joew8302
06-30-2010, 06:21 PM
I would love an example of a team giving away top players to get under the tax. I don't think it happens. There are less than 10 teams over the tax right now. And almost all of those teams are contenders that are not going to just be giving away key pieces. Who are these teams that are gonna be giving away players?

The Lakers, Cavs (only if they resign Lebron), Mavericks (Only if they resign Nowitski) and the Magic are the only teams over the tax right now who will still be over the tax at this time next year. So you have four teams potentially that could gain something from dealing for one of our expiring deals. And all those teams are going to be looking to contend next year. So why would they give us one of their better players during a playoff run? And even if you get draft picks from these teams, they are gonna be low first rounders.

Memphis gave up a VERY good player in Gasol strictly to save money. It does happen, but it is pretty rare.

Taterhead
06-30-2010, 06:24 PM
Memphis gave up a VERY good player in Gasol strictly to save money. It does happen, but it is pretty rare.

Yeah, that was almost 5 years ago. And they didn't get Gasol for free neither. They gave up Marc Gasol, who is a very good young center. They also matched salaries in that trade.

And everyone has talked about how they got fleeced in that trade since. I don't see that happening again.

speakout4
06-30-2010, 06:39 PM
The trades involving players getting traded for nothing that were made this year involved Mo Peterson, CDR, Daquean Cook and Kirk Hinrich. Hardly anything to get excited about.
Hinrich is not exactly chopped liver and getting someone of his ability is an upgrade over what we have now.

speakout4
06-30-2010, 06:41 PM
Yeah, that was almost 5 years ago. And they didn't get Gasol for free neither. They gave up Marc Gasol, who is a very good young center. They also matched salaries in that trade.

And everyone has talked about how they got fleeced in that trade since. I don't see that happening again.
And they knew that Marc was going to be that good? I don't think so.

Taterhead
06-30-2010, 07:54 PM
Hinrich is not exactly chopped liver and getting someone of his ability is an upgrade over what we have now.

He's a 29 year old overpaid bench player. Pardon me if I don't do cartwheels over him. So actually he IS chopped liver to me.


And they knew that Marc was going to be that good? I don't think so.

Actually a lot of people thought Marc was going to be very good, including the Lakers. The only reason they were willing to part with him was because of the promise Bynum showed at the time and the fact they were getting his brother in return.

speakout4
06-30-2010, 08:21 PM
He's a 29 year old overpaid bench player. Pardon me if I don't do cartwheels over him. So actually he IS chopped liver to me.


Actually a lot of people thought Marc was going to be very good, including the Lakers. The only reason they were willing to part with him was because of the promise Bynum showed at the time and the fact they were getting his brother in return.
Thought doesn't mean IS. Was he even drafted?

Hinrich is a lot better than anyone we have had in a good many years and likely to get. So when we have a better starter than Hinrich I will agree with you.

Taterhead
06-30-2010, 08:28 PM
Thought doesn't mean IS. Was he even drafted?

Yes, in the second round in '07. The bottom line is they thought he was gonna be good, and he is. They did a good job evaluating him.

I don't understand this line of thinking. Just because you think we'll be able to get a lopsided trade with our cap space doesn't mean we will either. It's quite a projection that has little history to base it off of. I would rather go with what is in front of me.

speakout4
06-30-2010, 08:35 PM
Yes, in the second round in '07. The bottom line is they thought he was gonna be good, and he is. They did a good job evaluating him.

I don't understand this line of thinking. Just because you think we'll be able to get a lopsided trade with our cap space doesn't mean we will either. It's quite a projection that has little history to base it off of. I would rather go with what is in front of me.
They thought he was going to be good? They traded him for his brother who was picked third in the first round so I don't see that "they" thought he was going to be that good.

It will be a buyer's market and there will be good players available to teams that have cap space. No you don't get an all star but you can get a decent starter. I don't know what's in front of you. The free agents available in 2011 aren't all stars either.

Taterhead
06-30-2010, 08:46 PM
They thought he was going to be good? They traded him for his brother who was picked third in the first round so I don't see that "they" thought he was going to be that good.

It will be a buyer's market and there will be good players available to teams that have cap space. No you don't get an all star but you can get a decent starter. I don't know what's in front of you. The free agents available in 2011 aren't all stars either.

Huh? The fact they pulled Pau with a package in which Marc was the centerpiece is a testament to the opinion that Marc Gasol was highly thought of through out the league. Memphis wanted to retool, the Lakers wanted to win now. If the roles were reversed the trade never happens.

I don't get your argument there. This thread is about what is in front of us. Everybody knows Collison and Okafor are available as a package deal and that next years fa class is VERY weak outside of restricted free agents. What we don't know is what teams will be offering what next year or at the trading deadline.

speakout4
06-30-2010, 09:00 PM
Huh? The fact they pulled Pau with a package in which Marc was the centerpiece is a testament to the opinion that Marc Gasol was highly thought of through out the league. Memphis wanted to retool, the Lakers wanted to win now. If the roles were reversed the trade never happens.

I don't get your argument there. This thread is about what is in front of us. Everybody knows Collison and Okafor are available as a package deal and that next years fa class is VERY weak outside of restricted free agents. What we don't know is what teams will be offering what next year or at the trading deadline.
Marc was a throw in and the grizzlies wanted and needed to unload salary. Everyone agreed at the time that this trade was a joke representing a big market team picking the pocket of a small market team that was in trouble financially. This was not a trade where everyone supposedly got the players they wanted. It just turned out that Marc was a lot better than a second rounder was projected to be.

Okafor has a terrible contract and has little upside. I don't dislike him but his contract is just what has put this team in the hole for the last three years. We just don't know that Collison is worth this risk. Why the hornets traded for Okafor is beyond me and now to remedy their mistake they have to package him with a guy who has potential but is not a proven starter.. On the other hand Hinrich has starter ability but was displaced by a guy who has all star potential.