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View Full Version : How sure are we that this draft isn't just a repeat of Williams-White(2006)?



rexnom
06-26-2010, 01:13 PM
It's hard for me to get excited about this draft until I actually see the players on the court. The main reason for this is that it reminds me far too much the 2006 draft.

It's been said before on this board but I find it very disconcerting that the same things that were said/written about Shawne Williams are essentially being said/written about Paul George and the same with James White/Lance Stephenson.

SMosley21
06-26-2010, 01:17 PM
Well then don't be excited and go mope around about it until the season starts.

woowoo
06-26-2010, 01:19 PM
Those 2 were knuckleheads, Paul G has his chit together... he may fail on the BB court but it wont be because he is an idiot.

And Lance seems like a good dude too, plus he is a second rounder.... no risk..

Magic P
06-26-2010, 01:19 PM
http://rlv.zcache.com/stop_being_such_a_negative_nancy_tshirt-p235703042736347300trlf_400.jpg

woowoo
06-26-2010, 01:21 PM
Those 2 were knuckleheads, Paul G has his chit together... he may fail on the BB court but it wont be because he is an idiot.

And Lance seems like a good dude too, plus he is a second rounder.... no risk..

By the way, I hated the SW and White draft... I love this one :p

Hehee... I meant to edit my post not quote myself ... heeh.e...

time for another Bud Lt.. :)

idioteque
06-26-2010, 01:22 PM
To an extent I agree with you. Both appear to be high risk/high reward picks to me. But I think there are some differences.

George appears to be a Rhodes Scholar compared to Shawne Williams. Shawne Williams never appeared to me to have anything resembling a work ethic and really just lived his life with a "I'll do whatever I want, **** everyone and everything else" sort of mentality. George, on the other hand, is very well spoken, articulate, and appears to really like basketball genuinely wants to improve his game. He's already working out with and buddies with Granger and Nick Young for the Wizards, two guys who he should be able to take parts of his game from given their skill.

I still think Shawne would at least be a rotation player in the league now if he had a good head on his shoulders. I really think George could turn out something like Stephen Jackson without the horrible attitude and hopefully better shooting.

As far as Stevenson, I am a bit worried about him, but he has more basketball skills than James White and unlike White he has the reputation for being a hard worker. While he has red flags that Pacers apparently hired a private investigator to follow him around and report on his actions. I think we vetted him very very carefully and he'll be fine.

I'm fine with the picks because most of the guys in this draft seem to have the ceilings of being adequate bench players and nothing else. If the Pacers have a lot of anything its guys who could come off the bench for just about any team in the league whether it be the Pacers or the Lakers. But what separates these elite teams from the Pacers is elite players in the starting lineup.

Peck
06-26-2010, 01:26 PM
Understandable to have these thoughts as our history and the fact that we must have built the fieldhouse on a sacred Indian burial ground by the way we are cursed.

However while there was some positive things said about S. Williams I don't believe I ever read anywhere where anyone (prior to the draft btw) said he would be the best player to come out of the draft. He was always said to be raw potential and in fact that was the case, if he would have ever gotten away from the drug life then he might have been something as it worked out he is nothing but a cautionary tale for almost every other young player out there.

As to second rounders? I never get excited about them. If they work out great, if not well then they don't cost anything (except White who they signed to an extended guaranteed contract).

BornReady
06-26-2010, 01:28 PM
could you guys brief me on the general board attitude of williams and white at the time of their draft? i didn't follow this board at that time.

Granville
06-26-2010, 01:35 PM
I've seen this question and concern quite a bit on PD. I am not saying George and Stephenson will succeed, but I think the connection to them and 2006 is held together with some pretty loose strings...

Gerorge vs. Williams:

Shawne Williams was, if I remember correctly, considered a bit of a reach. George was not. Also, there were concerns about Williams' character and I have not heard that about George. As it turns out, Williams biggest downfall was that he associated with a bad crowd, and that ruined any chance to find out if he could succeed in the NBA or not. It seems like the biggest complaint I have read about George is that he didn't dominate the WAC and that he doesn't have a great motor. But to me, he already is way ahead of where Williams was in terms of having a chance to succeed.

Stephenson vs. White:

Both UC players. Both guys who seem to have an attitude. Both guys who are raw and have flashy ability. But, we made a trade up for White. Even though we reportedly tried to do the same for Stephenson, we didn't. We picked him at 40. White seemed to have an attitude of entitlement. Stephenson seems to be a hot head. While being a hot head is not great, having a feeling of entitlement--especially a second rounder--is terrible. Bottom line is that both were second rounders. I know teams get good players out of the second, but if you can hit on a couple real good ones a decade, you are probably doing well. White didn't pan out. Maybe Stephenson will. But if not, it isn't franchise altering.

This draft will likely be judged by the success of Paul George. Whatever Stephenson and Tom Selleck provide will be gravy. And from that standpoint, I like George's chances better than I did Williams.

Trader Joe
06-26-2010, 01:41 PM
I agree with rexnom as I've expressed elsewhere on the board.

Hicks
06-26-2010, 02:04 PM
(except White who they signed to an extended guaranteed contract).

Did they? I know AJ Price got some guaranteed money, but I don't remember White getting any. I thought the cost of him was the two future 2nd round picks we traded away for him.

Bball
06-26-2010, 02:06 PM
Did they? I know AJ Price got some guaranteed money, but I don't remember White getting any. I thought the cost of him was the two future 2nd round picks we traded away for him.

I'm pretty sure White got a guaranteed contract....

Edit: Unless it was misreported at the time.

Sollozzo
06-26-2010, 02:08 PM
We can't be sure about anything. We'll just have to watch how it plays out over the next few years. But what happened to Shawne Williams is 100% irrelevant to what will happen to Paul George.

d_c
06-26-2010, 02:10 PM
It's hard for me to get excited about this draft until I actually see the players on the court. The main reason for this is that it reminds me far too much the 2006 draft.

It's been said before on this board but I find it very disconcerting that the same things that were said/written about Shawne Williams are essentially being said/written about Paul George and the same with James White/Lance Stephenson.

Some thoughts:

I do find it a little hypocritical from some people that justified the Tyler Hansbrough pick because being a college winner was supposedly a big reason Bird picked him and this counted for a lot while being a college loser is no big deal for George.

Bird just turned around this year and used a higher pick on a guy who ISN'T a college winner, whose team never played in the NCAA tournament and has a losing record playing in a crap conference. In fact, Paul George's career W-L record in college is 28-39 playing in a conference with the likes of powerhouses such as San Jose St. and Hawaii. These guys couldn't sniff the NIT.

I do think George was an excellent selection because you're drafting Paul George and not Fresno St. I just think it's absurd at the same time to think Tyler was a great pick just because he played for a great program. That stuff is bunk. You care about what a guy can potentially do in the NBA, not what his team did do in college. I think George has NBA game along with good upside and I haven't heard much about character issues with him. I think he'll be fine.

As far as Lance Stephenson goes, I don't care so much for any potential character issues as much as that I just don't think he's that good at playing high level 5 on 5 basketball. I'm kind of surprised Bird took him. In this sense I do kind of see your point about the Williams/White comparisons and just taking the guy with the best individual physical abilities and worrying about everything else with him later. But it's a 2nd round pick and the Pacers didn't go to any trouble to get him so it's no big deal.

spazzxb
06-26-2010, 02:14 PM
could you guys brief me on the general board attitude of williams and white at the time of their draft? i didn't follow this board at that time.

Shawn Williams was considered a reach by the "pros" on draft night almost universally so it was kinda a huh? moment, however he did have alot of potential. For the most part everyone was impressed with james whites incredible dunks and there was alot of excitement until he didn't make the team.

BornReady
06-26-2010, 02:17 PM
Honestly, just because a guy is considered a 'reach' or a 'given' doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. At the end of the day, mock drafts and scouts have been wrong more than enough times. Taking Andrew Bynum as early as the Lakers did was a 'reach' - that worked out nicely. Taking Gerald Green as late as the Celtics did was a 'given' - that didn't work out so well. So, to speculate that a player will be better this time around because he is not considered to be a 'reach' doesn't say much in the grand scheme of things. A reach based on what? One writer's mock draft, who is closely going by another writer's mock draft, who is modeling their's off another writer's mock draft, who received a preliminary list from a dude who watched 3 workouts?

Also, as for these 'character' discussions . . .

When Williams was drafted, were we really discussing 'character' and 'work ethic' issues? I don't remember those discussions to be honest. I could be mistaken, and if the scouting reports overwhelmingly list those problems - then I stand corrected. It just seems to me that it was never an issue at the time. It seems to be this fallacy that has gained legitimacy with the benefit of hindsight.

Even so, I hear a lot of people say things like George is "articulate" or "loves the game" and/or "wants to improve." But once again, did Shawne Williams ever show an inclination that he didn't love the game or want to improve? And the "articulate" argument always bothers me (a lot). So what? Okay, George is a better public speaker than Williams. I guess that means he is naturally inclined to also be a harder worker, show greater 'character' (whatever that is...), etc. It's silly. Kevin Garnett is not the most "articulate" person; but he became an outstanding basketball player somehow. Brandan Wright, on the other hand, is a great orator - but where has he been?!

I don't know. I see the comparisons to the Shawne Williams draft as completely justified. That's not to say that this draft will turn out the same way. But I don't think there are as many differences as people make it out to sound, to suddenly proclaim George as "future all-star!!!!" without even seeing him play in an NBA game yet.

I'm willing to bet people were saying the exact same things about Gerald Green when he was drafted.

All in all, I'm looking forward to supporting George; but I'm not going to put unrealistic expectations upon him. I wish him the best, and I truly hope he can develop into the player everyone sees in their mind. But I hope people don't become upset with him, or management if they don't see him progress to whatever fantasy they have contrived in their minds right now.

I see where you're coming from, but come on man. We haven't had a thing to be excited about all year long. Can you blame us?

d_c
06-26-2010, 02:19 PM
Shawn Williams was considered a reach by the "pros" on draft night almost universally so it was kinda a huh? moment, however he did have alot of potential. For the most part everyone was impressed with james whites incredible dunks and there was alot of excitement until he didn't make the team.

Shawne Williams wasn't considered a reach in the late teeens of what was considered at the time (and in fact turned out to be) a pretty weak draft.

BlueNGold
06-26-2010, 02:30 PM
I have been a critic of the Stephenson pick primarily because I don't think players with a questionable history usually help you. They usually have some kind of mental issue that takes away from team play and chemistry. OTOH, look at the Lakers and Ron Artest right now.

In any event, I see a few positives. First, he could be instant offense off the bench. In JOb's offense, if he's allowed to drive to the bucket, he might be pretty effective. Second, he will probably face Rush in practice and some of that emotion may start to rub off. That might make Rush a better player. Finally, he isn't going to cost the Pacers much. I suppose a guy capable of scoring at the NBA level is better than a worthless stiff sitting at the end of the bench. I just hope some of the clubs have had to close since the JO era guys left the city...

imawhat
06-26-2010, 02:36 PM
But once again, did Shawne Williams ever show an inclination that he didn't love the game or want to improve?

I'd say he did when he showed up to Pacers and Mavericks training camp out of shape and 20 lbs overweight.

spazzxb
06-26-2010, 02:50 PM
Wasn't Tyler NCAA player of the year and universally considered one of the best college players ever? It wasn't just team reputation.


Some thoughts:

I do find it a little hypocritical from some people that justified the Tyler Hansbrough pick because being a college winner was supposedly a big reason Bird picked him and this counted for a lot while being a college loser is no big deal for George.

Bird just turned around this year and used a higher pick on a guy who ISN'T a college winner, whose team never played in the NCAA tournament and has a losing record playing in a crap conference. In fact, Paul George's career W-L record in college is 28-39 playing in a conference with the likes of powerhouses such as San Jose St. and Hawaii. These guys couldn't sniff the NIT.

I do think George was an excellent selection because you're drafting Paul George and not Fresno St. I just think it's absurd at the same time to think Tyler was a great pick just because he played for a great program. That stuff is bunk. You care about what a guy can potentially do in the NBA, not what his team did do in college. I think George has NBA game along with good upside and I haven't heard much about character issues with him. I think he'll be fine.

As far as Lance Stephenson goes, I don't care so much for any potential character issues as much as that I just don't think he's that good at playing high level 5 on 5 basketball. I'm kind of surprised Bird took him. In this sense I do kind of see your point about the Williams/White comparisons and just taking the guy with the best individual physical abilities and worrying about everything else with him later. But it's a 2nd round pick and the Pacers didn't go to any trouble to get him so it's no big deal.

spazzxb
06-26-2010, 02:53 PM
Shawne Williams wasn't considered a reach in the late teeens of what was considered at the time (and in fact turned out to be) a pretty weak draft.

I guess, but I remember espn being pretty surprised by the pick. Some were, to be fair, saying if he stayed in school he might be a lottery pick the next year.

spazzxb
06-26-2010, 02:55 PM
It sounds like George is the type of guy, according to some analyst, who will have to work to gain weight. I personally don't remember an overweight Shawn Williams.
Did he really show up to our training camp 20lbs overweight in his rookie year? - fat (not muscle)?

If that happened, I guess you could make that judgment. But we're talking about the period we find ourselves in now...where all of these judgments are made before anyone really sees the player in NBA action...where all we can go off is a player's word and their college past. And in most cases, every single player (and I'm sure this included Shawne Williams) will say that they love the game; that they're committed to improving, etc.

For all we know, George could show up to training camp 20lbs overweight too.

McKeyFan
06-26-2010, 03:01 PM
if he would have ever gotten away from the drug life then he might have been something as it worked out he is nothing but a cautionary tale for almost every other young player out there.

OTOH, there was this David Harrison kid . . . oh, wait.




:pullhair:

Peck
06-26-2010, 03:01 PM
Did they? I know AJ Price got some guaranteed money, but I don't remember White getting any. I thought the cost of him was the two future 2nd round picks we traded away for him.

Yea I'm pretty sure that was part of why people were so p'd off at that entire episode. Not only did we give up future second round picks for him but I am pretty sure we signed him to a three year guaranteed contract which was completely unneccassary because with second rounders you don't have to guarantee them.

Then we cut him.

Now unlike some people I was never mad they cut him. I actaually applauded Bird at the time because to me it was a sign of knowing he made a mistake and did not try and force the issue. Obviously White has not been able to stick in the league so I don't see the cutting as a mistake.

The guaranteed contract on the other hand? Well, let's just hope that Bird has learned from previous experiance.

Anthem
06-26-2010, 03:01 PM
Shawne Williams wasn't considered a reach in the late teeens of what was considered at the time (and in fact turned out to be) a pretty weak draft.
There were a couple players that people really wanted instead of Shawne... primarily Rondo.

McKeyFan
06-26-2010, 03:08 PM
And the "articulate" argument always bothers me (a lot). So what? Okay, George is a better public speaker than Williams. I guess that means he is naturally inclined to also be a harder worker, show greater 'character' (whatever that is...), etc. It's silly. Kevin Garnett is not the most "articulate" person; but he became an outstanding basketball player somehow. Brandan Wright, on the other hand, is a great orator - but where has he been?!


I understand your concerns here. A book should never be ultimately judged by its cover.

On the other hand, I have been more and more impressed over the years by how nearly all the top performers in all major sports seem to be fairly articulate. And even if they have an urban accent, they come off extremely intelligent.

I don't think this is a mistake. Great athletes are available in droves. IQ seems to be one of the biggest factors that identifies the cream of the crop. And professional sports requires a lot of thinking these days.

d_c
06-26-2010, 03:08 PM
There were a couple players that people really wanted instead of Shawne... primarily Rondo.

Sure, but wanting Rondo and saying Williams wasn't a reach aren't mutually exclusive.

Before the draft combine started, I was sure Rondo was going to be a lottery pick. Then teams found out he couldn't shoot worth a lick and he fell. Also, I think there were character issues about Rondo himself, as was evidenced last summer when issues of his immaturity were brought up and the Celts were actually shopping him around (just seeing if they could get a ridiculously good offer).

flox
06-26-2010, 03:19 PM
I have been a critic of the Stephenson pick primarily because I don't think players with a questionable history usually help you. They usually have some kind of mental issue that takes away from team play and chemistry. OTOH, look at the Lakers and Ron Artest right now.

Lakers + Artest.
Bulls + Rodman
Spurs + S.Jax
Pistons + half the team

Bball
06-26-2010, 03:26 PM
Did they? I know AJ Price got some guaranteed money, but I don't remember White getting any. I thought the cost of him was the two future 2nd round picks we traded away for him.


Also the team needed to make a cut (or was it cuts?) for roster size issues and we had Powell and Marshall that both had performed well (if not better than expected) and so White got cut to help with that problem too.

None of which excuses a guaranteed contract being offered when it doesn't have to be with decisions like that looming.

And who do we blame that guaranteed contract on? Bird? Walsh? Morway (or was Kahn still here then?)? Simon? Did any of them question it at the time? Whose idea was it in the first place?

Oh well... the one thing I thought the episode showed was a willingness not to compound a mistake by continuing to plug along on that path and make further mistakes hoping that keeping White would ultimately pay dividends (in the face of evidence it wouldn't).

But then Marshall got busted for weed and we gave up on Powell anyway so I'm not sure any of it matters today except in terms of who we could've drafted instead. And I've not paid attention to that debate. There's a lot more margin for error (or benefit of the doubt) that deep in the draft as compared to picking 5th in the draft.

But offering a 2nd rnder an unnecessary guaranteed contract that early in the process still seems a little crazy.... (unless that fact was misreported in the first place).

BornReady
06-26-2010, 03:33 PM
another thing to consider is that James White was a senior by the time he was drafted, whereas Stephenson just finished his freshman year and still has growth and learning ahead

Bball
06-26-2010, 03:34 PM
Lakers + Artest.
Bulls + Rodman
Spurs + S.Jax
Pistons + half the team

It seems like Rodman slowly went crazy (or more crazy) as his career went along. Sjax is just Sjax (his moral compass is lacking a needle).

Artest hasn't seemed to get 'crazier' as he's gotten older but instead has slowly settled in. That could be from meds, maturity, a better support network (which could be doctors, team officials, friends, peers, and teammates), plus a respected veteran presence on the team as opposed to a diva faux leader that couldn't back up his talk. But it took all of that IMHO... and there's no guarantee a crack still isn't coming. But I'd say Artest is worth the risk... as long as he's making the effort. But it starts with him.

Ozwalt72
06-26-2010, 03:38 PM
I do find it a little hypocritical from some people that justified the Tyler Hansbrough pick because being a college winner was supposedly a big reason Bird picked him and this counted for a lot while being a college loser is no big deal for George.


I think the fact that Tyler put up outstanding numbers against some of the top competition in the country, and doing it on a very good team is justification of the pick. Add on that he proved to have some NBA athleticism and not be horribly undersized for a power forward, has a good basketball mind, and you have all the justification you need for that pick.

With George you are coming from a different angle. You have a guy whose NBA body can't be questioned, a guy who has improved in his short college career, on a team without much more than himself. He might not have lead Fresno anywhere, but that is probably more a reflection on their team than their star player. If he's outplaying everyone in the personal workouts, and you've been able to track his improvement at Fresno, you have to feel pretty comfortable about the pick.

That's my train of thought anyway.

t1hs0n
06-26-2010, 03:40 PM
I'm holding off judgment till I hear what donte and galante of the orlando summer league have to say about george and stephenson. They both universally disliked williams and spoke heavily about his demeanor and attitude on the court. They were not enthralled with white either. On that same note they spoke very highly of roy, mcroberts, and hansborugh and were not thrilled with big david harrison.

BlueNGold
06-26-2010, 03:50 PM
Lakers + Artest.
Bulls + Rodman
Spurs + S.Jax
Pistons + half the team

I don't think any of those are relevant. Artest and Rodman are far better players than Stephenson is likely to be. SJax was as much about the Spurs winning championships as the ball boy...and SJax is probably a better player than Stephenson will ever be too. Stephenson is a SG who cannot shoot from the perimeter. He makes SJax look like Reggie Miller.

Kuq_e_Zi91
06-26-2010, 04:16 PM
Did James White show any basketball ability other than that he could jump? Stephenson is much, much more talented. He's a ball player first and foremost, not an athletic freak who decided to try his hand at basketball. Stephenson was built to play basketball... hence, Born Ready.

Honestly, I think he has a little bit of Kobe in him. He's a little selfish, a little too aggressive, and a little too overly expressive with his teammates. It all stems from his passion to win and his hatred to lose.

You also gotta understand, Stephenson has been dubbed the "next big thing" since a very young age. He's had critics, scouts, "friends", coaches, damn near everyone in his ear since 9th grade trying to give him advice. That's a dangerous thing anywhere, but Coney Island? You might as well walk around with a bright red target on your chest. He had no choice but to develop this outer shell, this rough toughness to him. Some misunderstand it for arrogance and a poor attitude, but how do you make it out of there without a strong belief in yourself?

The difference between White and Stephenson is ironically the same thing that is used as a knock on Stephenson, mentality. White was at times way too passive, simply because he had no moves to go to. As great of a leaper as he was, unfortunately you can't jump over your defender and dunk from the three point line... this isn't Space Jam. Stephenson has this aggressive, out for blood mentality. He loves going at people, looking to thoroughly humiliate them. The knock is that sometimes he gets lost in these one-on-one battles, but I have no issue with a player who is hungry, aggressive, and out to prove something.

Despite being crowned as the next big thing since a kid, Lance hasn't developed a sense of entitlement, something James White managed to develop without much reason to, instead he has remained determined on verifying and even surpassing those early predictions for him. And now, with a family of his own... he can't afford to lose and not fulfill his potential.

flox
06-26-2010, 05:07 PM
SJax was as much about the Spurs winning championships as the ball boy

Bullcrap.

58 games as a starter, 11.8 pt average, 3rd highest scorer on that team, 4th most minutes played that season, 12.8 pts per game in the playoffs, huge in the Mavericks series that year, 3rd most minutes played in the playoffs, made the most three's for the in the playoffs in their title season.

Justin Tyme
06-26-2010, 05:13 PM
Did they? I know AJ Price got some guaranteed money, but I don't remember White getting any. I thought the cost of him was the two future 2nd round picks we traded away for him.


Yes, Bird gave him a 2 year GUARANTEED contract. IIRC, the contract was $400,000 each year. Then white was cut b4 the season started. It just rankled me that the Pacers had to pay him those 2 years. Normally, 2nd rounders don't get guaranteed contracts, so I was astonished Bird gave him one. One of my numerous peaves with Bird. Trading Alex Johson and 2 2nd round picks to get White is another misque of Birds.

Kuq_e_Zi91
06-26-2010, 05:20 PM
I found this by Jonathan Givony of Draft Express:

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/James-White-Signs-Two-Year-Deal-with-Spurs-1592/

White was recently waived by the Indiana Pacers despite being picked with the first pick in this year’s 2nd round draft. The Indiana Pacers used three second round picks to acquire his rights before waiving him. White cleared waivers and will receive 1.1 million dollars from Indiana as part of the two-year fully guaranteed contract he signed.

BobbyMac
06-26-2010, 05:22 PM
The draft is always a crap shoot...for everyone!

Roaming Gnome
06-26-2010, 05:30 PM
There were a couple players that people really wanted instead of Shawne... primarily Rondo.

Maybe in "hindsight" we wanted Rondo, but at the time a majority of the board that wanted a point guard wanted Marcus Williams. He was the next point guard slated in the mocks that year. Rondo was reported to have a bit of an attitude issue at Kentucky & couldn't shoot the ball. I remember there were a couple folks here that still wanted Rondo, but they were quickly drowned out by everyone talking about Rondo's issues.


I guess, but I remember espn being pretty surprised by the pick. Some were, to be fair, saying if he stayed in school he might be a lottery pick the next year.
I recall the ESPN panel being surprised because Marcus Williams was presumed the "Best Player Available" and we passed on him when we were in desperate need of a point guard to take a guy that was going into a position that was taken care of by Granger.


Also, as for these 'character' discussions . . .

When Williams was drafted, were we really discussing 'character' and 'work ethic' issues? I don't remember those discussions to be honest. I could be mistaken, and if the scouting reports overwhelmingly list those problems - then I stand corrected. It just seems to me that it was never an issue at the time. It seems to be this fallacy that has gained legitimacy with the benefit of hindsight.
Yes, at the time character was definitely being discussed. I remember a lot of arguments about avoiding Marcus Williams if he was available when we selected because of the UConn laptop scandal and him being the mastermind behind it. I don't think character was discussed with Shawne Williams because he was a relative unknown prospect to the fans. He seemed like a reach because no one on this board considered we'd take another late 1st round small forward after drafting Granger.

Thank God we didn't mess with Marcus Williams

ilive4sports
06-26-2010, 05:41 PM
I don't think any of those are relevant. Artest and Rodman are far better players than Stephenson is likely to be. SJax was as much about the Spurs winning championships as the ball boy...and SJax is probably a better player than Stephenson will ever be too. Stephenson is a SG who cannot shoot from the perimeter. He makes SJax look like Reggie Miller.

Michael Jordan came into the league as a SG who couldn't shoot from the perimeter.

What do i expect from Stephenson? Not a whole lot. He's a second round pick with a lot of upside. The difference between George and Stephenson is that I think George can step in and play right away. I think he is more consistent.

McKeyFan
06-26-2010, 05:50 PM
Michael Jordan came into the league as a SG who couldn't shoot from the perimeter.

Except for that game winner for the national championship.

Not a big deal, though.

Bball
06-26-2010, 05:51 PM
I don't think character was discussed with Shawne Williams because he was a relative unknown prospect to the fans. He seemed like a reach because no one on this board considered we'd take another late 1st round small forward after drafting Granger.

I do think character came up quickly with Shawne Williams once he was picked though. I think you might be correct it wasn't discussed much prior... But that was probably only because Williams himself wasn't discussed much as a potential Pacer. I suspect the Memphis/Calipari connection made him suspect anytime his name was mentioned though. It just exploded when he actually became a Pacer.

ilive4sports
06-26-2010, 05:51 PM
Except for that game winner for the national championship.

Not a big deal, though.

I didnt mean to say Stephenson was as good as MJ or will be, just saying that MJ didn't have a good outside shot when he came into the league.

MLB007
06-26-2010, 06:32 PM
I have been a critic of the Stephenson pick primarily because I don't think players with a questionable history usually help you. They usually have some kind of mental issue that takes away from team play and chemistry. OTOH, look at the Lakers and Ron Artest right now.

In any event, I see a few positives. First, he could be instant offense off the bench. In JOb's offense, if he's allowed to drive to the bucket, he might be pretty effective. Second, he will probably face Rush in practice and some of that emotion may start to rub off. That might make Rush a better player. Finally, he isn't going to cost the Pacers much. I suppose a guy capable of scoring at the NBA level is better than a worthless stiff sitting at the end of the bench. I just hope some of the clubs have had to close since the JO era guys left the city...

There were numerous articles in the press about how the Lakers were walking a tightrope with Ronnie and how it could explode in either direction at any time. His bizarro dribbling display as time ran down being the latest.
They were fortunate they made it through and he helped them win it.

BlueNGold
06-26-2010, 06:32 PM
So...we have our second round pick Lance Stephenson being indirectly compared to Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant? Are you all serious here? Two of the greatest players of all time? A guy who shot 21.9% from the college 3? Keep in mind that players back in the Jordan days did not shoot the 3 nearly as much in the NBA.

Hicks
06-26-2010, 06:41 PM
So...we have our second round pick Lance Stephenson being indirectly compared to Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant? Are you all serious here? Two of the greatest players of all time? A guy who shot 21.9% from the college 3? Keep in mind that players back in the Jordan days did not shoot the 3 nearly as much in the NBA.

It's possible to compare a lesser player with a greater player while not EQUATING the two.

MLB007
06-26-2010, 06:50 PM
Some thoughts:

I do find it a little hypocritical from some people that justified the Tyler Hansbrough pick because being a college winner was supposedly a big reason Bird picked him and this counted for a lot while being a college loser is no big deal for George.

Bird just turned around this year and used a higher pick on a guy who ISN'T a college winner, whose team never played in the NCAA tournament and has a losing record playing in a crap conference. In fact, Paul George's career W-L record in college is 28-39 playing in a conference with the likes of powerhouses such as San Jose St. and Hawaii. These guys couldn't sniff the NIT..

No team wins on talent alone. It takes the other factors of working hard and attitude and never say die spirit and all those intangibles. A real blood and guts guy, a 'refuse to lose' guy wins at every level or close to it. It's not a coincidence that they win at every level. That's worth something.
While at the same time you can be a great player but buried on a crappy team and you aren't going to be able to show what you've really got.
READ his draft preview. FS was in the aftereffects of a coach leaving the team in trouble with the NCAA. The team played walkon's for goodness sake. This wasn't just a bad team, it was a team with few scholarship players!!
He was often double and even triple teamed and still expected to create offense because they had little else in possibilities.
Nothing hypocritical about seeing a difference in those situations. :dance:

BlueNGold
06-26-2010, 07:03 PM
It's possible to compare a lesser player with a greater player while not EQUATING the two.

Yes it is. I might add that he is about the same size as Michael Jordan and was born in Brooklyn NY too.

I just think the comparisons like Jordan's relatively poor perimeter shooting as a young player has not only little value but negative value. 21.9% shooting from 3 for a SG is bad. He was strong enough to get his points by overpowering college players...and that will not happen at the next level so he will need to adjust. If his shooting does not pan out, he is not likely to be starter material. I seriously doubt we are talking about a player as clever as Marquis...who is also a huge exception to the rule.

tadscout
06-26-2010, 07:43 PM
It's possible to compare a lesser player with a greater player while not EQUATING the two.

Exactly...

I said in another thread that Durrant plays the 2 at times... so I see George having no problems playing the 2 as well...

Someone then jumped on me for comparing them...

The statement had was all about their size and athleticism being able to play the 2.... not that they are equal players.

---

As for Stephenson Vs. White

White was pure athletic freak with little basketball skills.

Stephenson is an average athlete with high strength and body control... and is very basketball savvy, just needs to break out of the street-ball selfishness and he'll be a Marquis like player... I've even seen some comparisons to Stephen Jackson (hopefully leaving the mental stuff, :laugh:) in a scouting report.

Brad8888
06-26-2010, 07:44 PM
Bullcrap.

58 games as a starter, 11.8 pt average, 3rd highest scorer on that team, 4th most minutes played that season, 12.8 pts per game in the playoffs, huge in the Mavericks series that year, 3rd most minutes played in the playoffs, made the most three's for the in the playoffs in their title season.

And I believe he may have been one of their team captains, like he was with the Pacers.

spazzxb
06-27-2010, 12:30 PM
Has Jackson gotten into any trouble since he left Indy? Someone who grew up in one of the neighborhoods in the country might have reason to be a little aggresive when those close to him are being attacked. Anyways I don't think he was nearly as bad as people looking for a whipping boy made it seem.


It seems like Rodman slowly went crazy (or more crazy) as his career went along. Sjax is just Sjax (his moral compass is lacking a needle).

Artest hasn't seemed to get 'crazier' as he's gotten older but instead has slowly settled in. That could be from meds, maturity, a better support network (which could be doctors, team officials, friends, peers, and teammates), plus a respected veteran presence on the team as opposed to a diva faux leader that couldn't back up his talk. But it took all of that IMHO... and there's no guarantee a crack still isn't coming. But I'd say Artest is worth the risk... as long as he's making the effort. But it starts with him.

spazzxb
06-27-2010, 12:55 PM
Has Jackson gotten into any trouble since he left Indy? Someone who grew up in one of the neighborhoods in the country might have reason to be a little aggresive when those close to him are being attacked. Anyways I don't think he was nearly as bad as people looking for a whipping boy made it seem.


It seems like Rodman slowly went crazy (or more crazy) as his career went along. Sjax is just Sjax (his moral compass is lacking a needle).

Artest hasn't seemed to get 'crazier' as he's gotten older but instead has slowly settled in. That could be from meds, maturity, a better support network (which could be doctors, team officials, friends, peers, and teammates), plus a respected veteran presence on the team as opposed to a diva faux leader that couldn't back up his talk. But it took all of that IMHO... and there's no guarantee a crack still isn't coming. But I'd say Artest is worth the risk... as long as he's making the effort. But it starts with him.

Anthem
06-29-2010, 11:27 PM
Maybe in "hindsight" we wanted Rondo, but at the time a majority of the board that wanted a point guard wanted Marcus Williams.
Well I wanted Rondo (although I was honestly hoping for a slightly better Jamison Brewer) and it seems like there were a good number of others as well. I hadn't scouted Rondo so it wasn't that... I just wanted the best PG on the board that wasn't M.Williams.

jeffg-body
06-29-2010, 11:58 PM
I think that there won't be any re-occurance of the dreaded Williams/White syndrome this time around. These guys are super athletic, but they also have some good basketball skills. These guys also work hard on their game.

Day-V
06-30-2010, 07:19 AM
If his shooting does not pan out, he is not likely to be starter material.

Most 2nd rounders aren't starter material. That's why they're 2nd rounders......

danman
06-30-2010, 01:15 PM
Well, it's not a repeat because we didn't draft Williams and White. Seriously, it's a little creepy the way people project.

If you want warm fuzzies, the Pacers do a LOT more background checking than they used to. Doesn't insure against knuckleheads, but it's due diligence.

Burned Girlfriend syndrome... "He wears golf shirts, just like my ex, that rat b@stard. No way."

odeez
06-30-2010, 01:17 PM
You can never be 100% sure... Summer League is around the corner, we will know more then. Patience is the course of action here.

ChicagoJ
07-02-2010, 11:44 AM
I don't think we'll know the answer to this question for a couple of seasons.

I'm excited for what George can become. I'd rather have De'Sean Butler than Stephenson in the second round because I hope George can become as good a player and winner as Butler already is and will be again when his knee heals.

But neither of these guys are NBA-ready. They weren't drafted for the 2010-11 season.

I can't wait until 12 months from now, when neither player has gotten many minutes because they just aren't ready to step onto the court yet... and watch how everyone on PD treats them like they're currently treating Rush, who right now is monumentally better at being an NBA rotation player than either of these unproven high-potential guys.

I don't think they're as high-risk as Williams and White. But they aren't ready and very likely won't be during the upcoming season.

Not every rookie is the same. Rush and Hibbert were ready to play and needed minutes. The knock on them wasn't "can they be good enough to play in the NBA?" but "how high is their upside?". These new guys - from what we understand - need to develop quite a bit before hitting the court on a regular basis.

And that's fine, but the expectations don't seem to be well-grounded or reasonable right now.

BPump33
07-02-2010, 12:29 PM
I don't think we'll know the answer to this question for a couple of seasons.

I'm excited for what George can become. I'd rather have De'Sean Butler than Stephenson in the second round because I hope George can become as good a player and winner as Butler already is an will be again when his knee heals.

But neither of these guys are NBA-ready. They weren't drafted for the 2010-11 season.

I can't wait until 12 months from now, when neither player has gotten many minutes because they just aren't ready to step onto the court yet... and watch how everyone on PD treats them like they're currently treating Rush, who right now is monumentally better at being an NBA rotation player than either of these unproven high-potential guys.

I don't think they're as high-risk as Williams and White. But they aren't ready and very likely won't be during the upcoming season.

Not every rookie is the same. Rush and Hibbert were ready to play and needed minutes. The knock on them wasn't "can they be good enough to play in the NBA?" but "how high is their upside?". These new guys - from what we understand - need to develop quite a bit before hitting the court on a regular basis.

And that's fine, but the expectations don't seem to be well-grounded or reasonable right now.

Obviously, you haven't heard that Lance was "Born Ready." :D