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View Full Version : Does TJ diserve another bite of the cherry?



thefeistyone
06-26-2010, 07:50 AM
Pardon the thread title, but I have a little world cup fever and l love the lingo.

The pacers went through draft night without addressing the point guard need. I know it's a long off season, but I don't see a lot of point guards that are being mentioned in threads as the answer. Felton, Collison, Farmar, Ridinour...I still don't believe any of these guys have the talent that TJ has. In a proper system TJ could excel.

I've been bashed before for my belief in Ford. Personally, I've always kind of liked his skill set and I think his bad shot selection and turn over rate is more of a product of a bad offensive game plan than lack of talent and or leadership.

He brings the ball down and there is no movement and eventually he has to make something happen. He is one of the only guys on the team that can get a shot when he wants.

I'll leave it where I started. Does Tj deserve another bite of the cherry?

Anthem
06-26-2010, 07:59 AM
It's not about deserve. He can do well in the right situation, but that situation is not the Indiana Pacers right now. I really hope we move him this summer.

thefeistyone
06-26-2010, 08:05 AM
It's not about deserve. He can do well in the right situation, but that situation is not the Indiana Pacers right now. I really hope we move him this summer.

So can a less talented player excel with the pacers? OB has a terrible system.

I guess my question would be, If TJ can't do it in this system...why should we give up some pieces to get a collision or felton? Both are more shot happy than TJ is.

focused444
06-26-2010, 08:09 AM
Even if TJ sticks around and has his most productive year as a Pacer, you just get the sense he will not be a Pacer after this season...

OakMoses
06-26-2010, 08:16 AM
If T.J. starts the opening game for the Pacers this season, I'll do my best to find both Larry and Jim and kick them in the nuts the next time I'm in town.

p.s. Is their such things as a Freudian typo? I rearranged the letters in this while I was typing it. No joke.

thefeistyone
06-26-2010, 08:37 AM
If T.J. starts the opening game for the Pacers this season, I'll do my best to find both Larry and Jim and kick them in the nuts the next time I'm in town.

p.s. Is their such things as a Freudian typo? I rearranged the letters in this while I was typing it. No joke.

Would you rather TJ start or give up Rush and or Muphy's contact to get a minimal upgrade? ..kick Bird in the nuts if you must, but I would rather keep rush and maybe save Murphy for the trade deadline rather than trade them for felton or collision. (those seem to be the 2 best circumstances i've heard)

Justin Tyme
06-26-2010, 08:38 AM
If T.J. starts the opening game for the Pacers this season, I'll do my best to find both Larry and Jim and kick them in the nuts the next time I'm in town.

p.s. Is their such things as a Freudian typo? I rearranged the letters in this while I was typing it. No joke.


Make sure you wear steel toe boots when you do! :D

Major Cold
06-26-2010, 08:43 AM
No. TJ had his shot and could not do it.

odeez
06-26-2010, 08:46 AM
I don't put all the blame on TJ for the current situation. But we have to stop benching multi-million dollar PGs. It's becoming a bad habit! He needs to be traded plain and simple. I wish I could say give him another bite of that Cherry, but it feels too late for that. I only pray he holds some value to other teams with his 8 million dollar expiring contract!

Justin Tyme
06-26-2010, 08:50 AM
Pardon the thread title, but I have a little world cup fever and l love the lingo.

The pacers went through draft night without addressing the point guard need. I know it's a long off season, but I don't see a lot of point guards that are being mentioned in threads as the answer. Felton, Collison, Farmar, Ridinour...I still don't believe any of these guys have the talent that TJ has. In a proper system TJ could excel.

I've been bashed before for my belief in Ford. Personally, I've always kind of liked his skill set and I think his bad shot selection and turn over rate is more of a product of a bad offensive game plan than lack of talent and or leadership.

He brings the ball down and there is no movement and eventually he has to make something happen. He is one of the only guys on the team that can get a shot when he wants.

I'll leave it where I started. Does Tj deserve another bite of the cherry?



It's constantly said the Pacers don't have a PG for this coming season. I was thinking the other day that Ford is still here. I'm not saying that's who I want as the PG next season, but OTOH it's not like the Pacers are void of a PG except for an injured Price. (I'm sure some will disagree.) It just may be a possibility that Bird can't get a PG in a trade that's better than Ford. Pacers are paying Ford 8.5 mil, and that's way too much for a PG to make sitting on the bench. So what I'm saying is don't be surprised if Ford is the starting PG this coming season.

There is another alternative, and that's Tinsley, since he's being paid this season anyway.



Just joking!

OakMoses
06-26-2010, 09:20 AM
Would you rather TJ start or give up Rush and or Muphy's contact to get a minimal upgrade? ..kick Bird in the nuts if you must, but I would rather keep rush and maybe save Murphy for the trade deadline rather than trade them for felton or collision. (those seem to be the 2 best circumstances i've heard)

The PG situation, which has included Ford as the highest-paid player and anointed starter, has ruined the past two seasons for the Pacers. Two years ago we saw a decidedly better team once Jack took over as starting PG.

Last year TJ was again given the starting job by default and the team suffered for it. Again, once he was benched for Watson, the team improved.

I firmly believe that the rest of the team does not want TJ to be the starting PG. After actively shopping him and the benching him for 2 years in a row, there's no way that the locker room is going to buy into him as the starter.

Starting Ford is tantamount to throwing away the season from game one. If we can't make a trade to significantly improve the position, I'd rather find a way to dump T.J. and bring in a couple of young, unproven guys (even undrafted rookies like Jerome Randle or Mikhail Torrance if I have to) to pair with Price and let them fight it out. There are guys out there like Farmar, Augustin, Livingston, etc. who could be had cheaply and may be starter quality guys who've never been given a chance.

Let me put it this way, T.J. Ford has a 0% chance of being the starting PG after this coming season. If you go with Price + 2 unproven guys, you've at least got a chance, albeit a small one, of finding something worth keeping. You're probably throwing away the season either way, but at least we'd be trying to throw it toward something.

Anthem
06-26-2010, 09:37 AM
I firmly believe that the rest of the team does not want TJ to be the starting PG. After actively shopping him and the benching him for 2 years in a row, there's no way that the locker room is going to buy into him as the starter.
I thought that was true last season.


Starting Ford is tantamount to throwing away the season from game one. If we can't make a trade to significantly improve the position, I'd rather find a way to dump T.J. and bring in a couple of young, unproven guys (even undrafted rookies like Jerome Randle or Mikhail Torrance if I have to) to pair with Price and let them fight it out.
Yeah, great point. I think this was true last season as well.


Let me put it this way, T.J. Ford has a 0% chance of being the starting PG after this coming season. If you go with Price + 2 unproven guys, you've at least got a chance, albeit a small one, of finding something worth keeping. You're probably throwing away the season either way, but at least we'd be trying to throw it toward something.
Again, great point. And once again, I think this would have been true last season as well.

Brad8888
06-26-2010, 10:01 AM
Keep in mind that we already could have let TJ go both at the trade deadline (by giving up Rush to the Bobcats) and then again at the draft (by giving up the 10, who turned out to be Paul George, who would have possibly become the Robin to Durant's Batman).

The Pacers probably consider TJ to have some value, and they expect that to increase IMO. The only reason he has not played and started for the Pacers is his inability to shoot the 3, and the fact that he cannot figure out how not to drive too deep into the paint prior to the rest of the team creating their own opportunities by moving independently without the ball, leaving him hung up and creating either turnovers or bad shots that we can't get the rebounds for because we don't have anybody in the game to get those boards with Murphy planted firmly at the arc waiting for a kick out.

TJ will get another bite of the cherry. It would be counterproductive to not play him at this point barring a trade for an important piece at the pg spot because it would further reduce other teams perceived value of him. Just hope that Keller has been effective for him this off season.

Day-V
06-26-2010, 10:45 AM
Hell No.

Naptown_Seth
06-26-2010, 12:54 PM
Deserve? Nobody deserves it per se. I would say that last year he earned reduced playing time, which instead was zero playing time.

That to me was a terrible choice. I would have played AJ as much or more, but I would have just moved TJ from batting 2nd to batting 9th and hoped that the role change helped him get his feet under him.

Benching outright should be reserved only for guys with major attitude issues, and if that was the case he shouldn't have played another minute all year, should have been traded for certain, and shouldn't be playing this year.

My guess is this isn't true, in which case TJ not only warrants some level of PT but basically must be relied upon at this point due to roster issues.



But then the team has needed athletic defense at the PF for 2 years straight and keeps leaving Josh on the bench even while spending a high draft pick trying to find exactly that type of player. So playing guys who do exactly what the team needs isn't quite JOB's strength.

He'll play the crap out of an overpaid vet who doesn't figure into the team's future though, so there is hope for TJ yet. Immovable object meets irresistible force.

flox
06-26-2010, 03:03 PM
Absolutely. If we can get his stock up from low to low-mid or mid, we have to do it.

It's not like we are going to be magically better by getting a point guard (I doubt he'll be good enough to be our long term solution, as I don't see Lawson or Collison as long term starters), and sticking him as the floor general.

TJ absolutely should start and be given a new chance. It's a new season.

I see nothing wrong with TJ starting.

AJ + Garbage won't get this team anywhere and we won't find a starting PG this summer barring a miracle.

Hillman's 'Fro'
06-26-2010, 04:08 PM
Brad8888-

Isn't Westbrook already KD's 'Robin' ? If (or assuming) so, maybe
George coulda been his 'Albert'. Or, at the very least, he coulda
kept the Batmobile nice and shiny !

On a more serious note:

NapSeth-

When it comes to T.J. and a potential 'attitude issue', while I don't
know the behind the scenes scoop, it seems pretty obvious that
if there is one, it's a two-way street with JOB at the other end.

I couldn't stand Tinsley (with some firsthand, personal experience
to back that up) and don't much care for T.J.'s game. But their
situations have more in common than just the players faults or
shortcomings. JOB is a pretty obvious common denominator.

Peck
06-26-2010, 04:24 PM
It's not his shooting that is the problem for O'Brien it is his not moving the ball that is the problem.

Jim does not want a ball handler for a point guard, he would prefer a player who moves without the ball, can drive and then can hit a shot but on defense he can defend the other p.g.

T.J. is a ball handling p.g. For him to have an impact on the game he has to have the ball in his hands and he is a drive and dish kind of a guy.

The two are in direct contrast & in this case I will go ahead and say that neither is wrong.

I don't love JOB's system as everyone knows but it is what he wants to run so he can't do it if he has a point who can not do that.

T.J. is not an elite guard but you can't blame the guy for not being able to just change up his game after playing one way for so many years.

T.J. for all of his faults has been a very professional player about all of this and has never once made a spectacle of himself or not been there to support the team.

This is just a bad pairing.

Sadly though defensively T.J. has not been a bad player for us at times.

Ozwalt72
06-26-2010, 05:49 PM
I don't want Ford, you don't want Ford, Bird doesn't want Ford.

You know what? It might not be a bad thing to let him have the reigns, advertise it as a chance to prove himself. I don't care. So what if Price takes the starting role from him late in the season? Is that bad for our future? When we have so much expiring it may be worth letting that happen and just seeing what unfolds. Look at what OKC was able to do this draft....next year we could be making those type of deals. Letting an expiring sit on our cap for another team for an additional trading chip.


A lot worse could happen if we give up some players for a PG this year.

BornReady
06-26-2010, 05:49 PM
I feel like it would be in everybody's best interest to get rid of Ford

Roaming Gnome
06-26-2010, 05:49 PM
-snip-
T.J. is a ball handling p.g. For him to have an impact on the game he has to have the ball in his hands and he is a drive and dish kind of a guy.

The two are in direct contrast & in this case I will go ahead and say that neither is wrong.

This is just a bad pairing.



I'm just afraid we are going to take a "ball handling pg" out of the desperation of going into the season with only TJ Ford as being our only uninjured point to start the season.

Brad8888
06-26-2010, 06:57 PM
It's not his shooting that is the problem for O'Brien it is his not moving the ball that is the problem.

Jim does not want a ball handler for a point guard, he would prefer a player who moves without the ball, can drive and then can hit a shot but on defense he can defend the other p.g.

T.J. is a ball handling p.g. For him to have an impact on the game he has to have the ball in his hands and he is a drive and dish kind of a guy.

The two are in direct contrast & in this case I will go ahead and say that neither is wrong.

I don't love JOB's system as everyone knows but it is what he wants to run so he can't do it if he has a point who can not do that.

T.J. is not an elite guard but you can't blame the guy for not being able to just change up his game after playing one way for so many years.

T.J. for all of his faults has been a very professional player about all of this and has never once made a spectacle of himself or not been there to support the team.

This is just a bad pairing.

Sadly though defensively T.J. has not been a bad player for us at times.

So why didn't O'B bench the ball hogging Allen Iverson who frequently got 25 points in 35 shots (many ill-advised), with the rest of the offense stagnating around him? Simple, he played exactly as O'B prefers (and probably was encouraged to do so), hoisting up as many shots as he possibly could whether it was 3's or driving to the hole, whereupon he would generally take the shot, or kick out to the arc, and Iverson could shoot from most locations on the floor, including 3's.

It is no coincidence, IMO, that O'B expressed the fact that Mike Dunleavy was an absolute genius offensively immediately before Dunleavy mysteriously stopped being a facilitator of a motion style offense. I am sure that O'B was flabbergasted that Dunleavy could get the team to move as well as he did, and then when he looked more closely at tape, he told Dunleavy what he needed to do to modify his game to fit with the O'B way, and Dunleavy was not the same after that. This doublespeak on the part of O'B fit his pattern from much of last year.

So, despite words to the contrary, I don't think O'B actually wants a true motion offense as much as he wants an offense that doesn't have a set structure so that it is less predictable and harder to defend (much like the ill-fated IT "Quick"). Unfortunately, without rebounders to clean up the mess from this method who are capable of getting putback baskets and are also defenders capable of both taking charges and blocking shots to clean up the misses of the perimeter defenders in the halfcourt (yes, a healthy JO would have solved many of the issues we currently have IMO), the team has little hope unless it is hitting 3's at a high rate.

I wouldn't like it because it would take us further away from playing a motion offense, but, if it weren't for all of his baggage, it would not have surprised me if Iverson (who is rumored to be attempting a comeback) would not have been considered to be the stopgap answer to take us to the end of this upcoming season because he fits the O'B way so well. But, he would not be taken well by those who have followed his career and remember his off court issues.

Eleazar
06-26-2010, 06:58 PM
TJ has been the best PG on the team since he has been here, and he is a quality PG that currently is better than any young talent that we could bring in. The problem though isn't him, but the coach and the system. He just doesn't fit the system, he would probably fit in better with the Pacers post-brawl pre-O'Brien, all the while another PG named Tinsley would have fit better with this team.

Sookie
06-26-2010, 10:59 PM
TJ Ford is a god awful PG.

He's not a good passer, doesn't see the floor well, makes terrible decisions with the ball, typically doesn't have a plan and isn't capable of improvising too well.

He's fast and he can score though. And he's also the only healthy PG on the roster.

Rush has become expendable unfortunatly (or DJones..or hopefully Dun)

However, I wouldn't mind keeping TJ until the trade deadline if nothing good comes. Don't make a deal for the sake of a deal, especially with the price it may come with (Rush + first round pick..ect) If it simply comes to, TJ + third string PG, holds down the position until AJ is healthy, than so be it. (Then do us all a favor and play AJ instead of TJ) we may even get lucky, Ford plays well, and he's worth more. (Like Murphy's worth more) Particularly if JOB goes with small ball, and Ford can score instead of try and distribute and shoot threes.

my point...No, he's a bad PG. But we don't necessarily have to get rid of him this summer.

BornReady
06-27-2010, 01:09 AM
guys lets campaign to bring Jarrett Jack back! i will make Bird happy in the bedroom if he does :D

PacersPride
06-27-2010, 02:50 AM
i will make Bird happy in the bedroom if he does :D

:wtf:

smj887
06-27-2010, 03:44 AM
Certainly he's implying that he'll buy Bird a Serta...

pwee31
06-27-2010, 04:23 AM
I think T.J could help another team, but I don't think he's the guy for our starting job. The last 2 seasons have proved that, and you can even go back to the history of him losing the starting job to other backups.

I think Ford would be at his best as a backup PG on a playoff team where he could come off the bench and provide a scoring spark, and be an actual threat when on the court instead of just giving a guy a breather.

Celtics- Back up Rondo, better option then Nate Robinson, maybe not as fired up as Nate, but a more consistent option

Lakers- Yeah they won the Championship, but with Fisher getting old, and Farmar likely gone, could be a nice option off their bench as well

Bulls- Better then Pargo, as long as they don't treat him like Hinrich and try to play him w/ Rose

Jazz- Better then Price

I think you guys get the point (no pun intended), but Ford would probably be able to do well in a role like that, and be a nice option if your starter gets in foul trouble, or even insurance if an injury occurs

Midcoasted
06-27-2010, 05:49 AM
I would say no, but with the addition of George, I have changed my whole outlook. Often times it looked at the end of games TJ was the only player on our team that could create his own shot at times. I think George will help with that so maybe TJ will actually pass to him? IDK.

It's sad that TJs biggest downfall is he is the only one that can create his own shot on a mediocore team, so he is labled a ballhog etc...Granger can create his own shot, but often times last year it seemed he was jacking up shots. I think the inuries made him reluctant to drive the ball more, and when he was healthy at the end of the year, he showed he could do it still. I mean would you rather have a team winning at the end of the year, or one loosing at the end of the year? I'd prefer winning. Sometimes momentum can roll into the playoffs, and if we can win 10 more games this year we may give someone a run for their money. Imagine if we could figure out a way to handle Boston in a series like we did in the game at the beginning of last year?

Anthem
06-27-2010, 09:38 AM
guys lets campaign to bring Jarrett Jack back! i will make Bird happy in the bedroom if he does :D
Does it seem like there's a lot of these jokes recently?

I get that for some folks it was funny the first time. But how many times a week before it gets old?