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Unclebuck
07-30-2004, 09:21 AM
http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-1/1091164231266180.xml

Nets: Kidd ready to walk

Friday, July 30, 2004

BY DAVE D'ALESSANDRO Star-Ledger Staff

The Bruce Ratner Fire Sale continued in earnest yesterday, when the Nets gave away yet another piece of their franchise -- and their history -- by shipping Kerry Kittles to the Los Angeles Clippers for virtually nothing.

According to a team official, Jason Kidd returned from his Mexican vacation yesterday and immediately requested a meeting with management at Ratner's earliest convenience, at which time the Nets' captain is expected to demand a trade.

And to further illustrate the goals of the new ownership group, a close friend of Alonzo Mourning yesterday disclosed that the disabled center wants to attempt a comeback, but has been informed by the team that his services are no longer desired, as it would rather lop his salary off the cap after next season.

Team president Rod Thorn, who in an afternoon conference call with reporters sounded as though he had his soul ripped out by a savage tax collector, attempted to spin the Kittles trade into a positive move that will allow his depleted team to fill the gaping voids at other positions while saving the $9.8 million that remained on Kittles' contract.
"The purpose for us was very simple: We're obviously trying to restructure our team, and it's going to make it much easier after we make this deal," said Thorn, whose team received a second-round draft pick in the deal, which also included a $1.5 million payment to L.A.

"I feel very confident we'll end up with a strong two-guard position, but we have other needs we have to address, and if we stayed the way we were, we wouldn't be able to address them. That in a nutshell is why we did this trade."

The ramifications, however, could get very complicated -- and ugly.

Thorn, whose team picked up journeyman subs Rodney Buford and Jacque Vaughn yesterday, said last night that his conversation with Kidd about the Kittles deal was brief.

"I talked to someone who was with him," Thorn said. "I talked to Jason for about three seconds."
Presumably enough time for Kidd to slam down the phone. While Thorn would not confirm Kidd's mood or whether a meeting was requested, Kidd's anger over the sacrifice of his backcourt partner was felt throughout the organization -- so much that it is now widely assumed that he will demand a trade.

Agent Jeff Schwartz, who was traveling yesterday, did not return calls seeking comment. But another member of Kidd's inner circle predicted the worst.
"He took the Nets' money because they told him they were going to try to win the championship -- false pretenses," Kidd's friend said. "Knowing Jason, he'll want out. I'd bet that he's not playing until they trade him."

The Nets have now lost three of their top seven players -- Kenyon Martin, Rodney Rogers and Kittles -- and received no live bodies in return. They have also trimmed their payroll from $62 million to its present $47.5 million, and there is no guarantee that they are done hacking more salaries. It is possible, for example, that the Nets will buy out Lucious Harris, who has $2.65 million coming to him next season.

It also appears as though they would dissuade Mourning from returning, even though he has been in the gym almost daily for the past two months. According to Zo's friend, he told the Nets that he would like to play again, and showed ample readiness with a strong performance at his charity game last week. But the team would rather see him retire -- thereby allowing it to save $12 million after the last two years of his salary come off the salary cap.

Mourning's agent, Jeff Wechsler, said last night that a comeback from last December's kidney transplant "hasn't come up -- Alonzo made his comments earlier this summer that he has no plans to play, and I'd believe what Alonzo says."
Thorn added, "He's been working out, and there's certainly no doubt that if he can play he would like to play...but it's too early to comment about it."
When asked whether the bean counters would welcome Mourning back, Thorn's response was intentionally vague: "If he's able to play," he said, "I'm sure he'll be here."

Kittles leaves New Jersey after 496 games covering seven seasons, in which time he became the Nets' second-leading scorer behind Buck Williams. He also had more steals than any other Net besides Darwin Cook, played more minutes than anyone other than Williams, and led the franchise in most 3-point categories.

Still, Thorn referred to Kittles as "a role player. If you look at our team, we have spots to fill. By making this trade it puts us in a better position to fill other spots."

Besides the Clippers' second-round pick next year, the Nets also get a $9.8 million exception that can be used only in a trade, but they are not likely to use it. To fill out the roster, Thorn has targeted Ron Mercer and Newark native Eric Williams, hopeful they'd be willing to split their midlevel exception, that extra $4.9 million fund that capped-out teams can spend on free agents.
"There's interest on the Nets' part and the lure of New Jersey is attractive on Eric's part," agent Mark Bartelstein said yesterday. "I think he'd be a great fit in a variety of ways."

Suaveness
07-30-2004, 09:39 AM
This is going to get really, really ugly for NJ. I expect Jefferson to follow suit, if Kidd does want out.

Lord Helmet
07-30-2004, 10:10 AM
Saw this coming.:laugh: The Nets are falling apart.

Jose Slaughter
07-30-2004, 10:29 AM
How much is the Pacers trade exception fom the Miller deal?

Is it enough to get Zo?

edit: Real GM lonly list the Primoz exception & that is 1.2. With Zo making 5.4 we would need to be in the range of 4 & Foster is the only guy we have there.

It was a thought anyway.........:(

indygeezer
07-30-2004, 10:53 AM
IIRC the Nets cannot use the MLEor LLE if they are below the salary cap.

Ultimate Frisbee
07-30-2004, 10:59 AM
We could put together a nice pacakage and pick up both Kidd and/or Jefferson for Artest, Tinsley, Bender, Jones, Croshere, etc...

Indiana trades: PG Jamaal Tinsley (8.3 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 5.8 apg in 26.5 minutes)
PG Fred Jones (4.9 ppg, 1.6 rpg, 2.1 apg in 18.6 minutes)
SF Ron Artest (18.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 3.7 apg in 37.2 minutes)
SF Jonathan Bender (7.0 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 0.4 apg in 12.9 minutes)
PF Austin Croshere (5.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 0.7 apg in 13.7 minutes)
Indiana receives: PG Jason Kidd (15.5 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 9.2 apg in 36.5 minutes)
SF Richard Jefferson (18.5 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 3.8 apg in 38.2 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -9.5 ppg, -2.5 rpg, and +0.3 apg.

New Jersey trades: PG Jason Kidd (15.5 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 9.2 apg in 36.5 minutes)
SF Richard Jefferson (18.5 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 3.8 apg in 38.2 minutes)
New Jersey receives: PG Jamaal Tinsley (8.3 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 5.8 apg in 52 games)
PG Fred Jones (4.9 ppg, 1.6 rpg, 2.1 apg in 81 games)
SF Ron Artest (18.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 3.7 apg in 73 games)
SF Jonathan Bender (7.0 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 0.4 apg in 21 games)
PF Austin Croshere (5.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 0.7 apg in 77 games)
Change in team outlook: +9.5 ppg, +2.5 rpg, and -0.3 apg.

And perhaps we could add in a draft pick or two as well....

Our starting lineup would be:

Kidd
Miller
Jefferson
O'Neal
Foster

Almost guaranteed championship...

bulletproof
07-30-2004, 11:11 AM
Let the Artest and Tinsley for Kidd trade proposals begin.

MSA2CF
07-30-2004, 11:11 AM
ILovethePacers, the Pacers were two games away from being in the NBA Finals. Why do you want to shake up the roster like that?

bapspacers4life
07-30-2004, 11:13 AM
ILovethePacers:rolleyes:

Outsider
07-30-2004, 11:15 AM
Interesting enough, the following also works:

Croshere
Artest
Pollard
Tinsley

for

Kid
Jefferson
Collins


I would think about that one anyway.....hmmm...


Outsider

Ultimate Frisbee
07-30-2004, 11:22 AM
yeah... maybe I got a little carried away... :(

I don't know if i could live without all of those players...

Granville
07-30-2004, 11:25 AM
Kidd reminds me of Larry Brown. They both get to places and make a big (sometimes huge) impact, but it only lasts about four years and then a split is better for everyone.

That said, I loved having Larry Brown here and I would love to have Kidd. I know he has some injury problems, but if healthy, he would be a big upgrade the next couple of years.

The problem is what to trade for him. I am not opposed to moving Artest, but the Pacers need another forward back in return or we'll be too thin there. I also don't see any chance the Nets include Jefferson in any deal.

SjA3837
07-30-2004, 11:32 AM
mmHmmm, No way we give Artest and Bender to a team in the eastern con. Let alone one of them...

Kidd is an all star, But he's aging.

I would rather have Tins he was the PG to get us to the Eastern Confrence Finals, and has been playing with this group of guys for years now. You don't want to break that up.

diego
07-30-2004, 11:37 AM
the only way I would consider Artest in a trade to get a Kidd is if Jefferosn is part of it, other than that no way.

diego
07-30-2004, 11:37 AM
interesting thought though, isnt Artest from Brooklyn area, arent the Nets moving there? UMMMMMM

Outsider
07-30-2004, 11:39 AM
I was thinking on Jefferson too..... What if he is going to force his hand like Kidd apparently is?

Tins and Artest give them two starters back plus they could market on Artest being the local boy. Wonder how he would do if he were the star of the show and not second fiddle?

outsider

diego
07-30-2004, 11:42 AM
Tinsley is a local boy too

ChicagoJ
07-30-2004, 11:47 AM
We could put together a nice pacakage and pick up both Kidd and/or Jefferson for Artest, Tinsley, Bender, Jones, Croshere, etc...

Indiana trades: PG Jamaal Tinsley (8.3 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 5.8 apg in 26.5 minutes)
PG Fred Jones (4.9 ppg, 1.6 rpg, 2.1 apg in 18.6 minutes)
SF Ron Artest (18.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 3.7 apg in 37.2 minutes)
SF Jonathan Bender (7.0 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 0.4 apg in 12.9 minutes)
PF Austin Croshere (5.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 0.7 apg in 13.7 minutes)
Indiana receives: PG Jason Kidd (15.5 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 9.2 apg in 36.5 minutes)
SF Richard Jefferson (18.5 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 3.8 apg in 38.2 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -9.5 ppg, -2.5 rpg, and +0.3 apg.

New Jersey trades: PG Jason Kidd (15.5 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 9.2 apg in 36.5 minutes)
SF Richard Jefferson (18.5 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 3.8 apg in 38.2 minutes)
New Jersey receives: PG Jamaal Tinsley (8.3 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 5.8 apg in 52 games)
PG Fred Jones (4.9 ppg, 1.6 rpg, 2.1 apg in 81 games)
SF Ron Artest (18.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 3.7 apg in 73 games)
SF Jonathan Bender (7.0 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 0.4 apg in 21 games)
PF Austin Croshere (5.0 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 0.7 apg in 77 games)
Change in team outlook: +9.5 ppg, +2.5 rpg, and -0.3 apg.

And perhaps we could add in a draft pick or two as well....

Our starting lineup would be:

Kidd
Miller
Jefferson
O'Neal
Foster

Almost guaranteed championship...


PG isn't our strongest position, but it isn't our weakest, either.

Your trade gives a slight upgrade to the backcourt but leaves us very, very thin up front. Your backup PFs/Cs are Harrison and Pollard. Yikes! No way that team advances beyond the second round when it would have to play either Detroit or Miami.

diego
07-30-2004, 11:50 AM
Just for kicks, this trade actually worked on Real GM


Artest/Tins/Cro for Jefferson/Kidd


Now this means they would take back a big contract but they are getting a great contract in Artest and an expiring one in Tinsley which would be a viable PG for them for not a lot. So taking on Cros contract would not a big hit for them and he could actually help them with the loss of Martin and Jefferson.

Bad thing is this would leave us very thin at PF, basically meaning Bender is all we got left there.

Intersting thooughts though.

Outsider
07-30-2004, 12:01 PM
Just for kicks, this trade actually worked on Real GM


Artest/Tins/Cro for Jefferson/Kidd


Now this means they would take back a big contract but they are getting a great contract in Artest and an expiring one in Tinsley which would be a viable PG for them for not a lot. So taking on Cros contract would not a big hit for them and he could actually help them with the loss of Martin and Jefferson.

Bad thing is this would leave us very thin at PF, basically meaning Bender is all we got left there.

Intersting thooughts though.



Yeah, this is basically what I proposed....just thought we might be able to upgrade a bit by getting rid of pollard for collins too....

Outsider
07-30-2004, 12:06 PM
hmmm....maybe trade Feddie and Pollard to Portland for Shareef instead of Collins. That would put us at:

Kid/Johnson/Gill
Reggie/SJ
Jefferson/Bender/Jones
O'neal/Shareef
Foster/??(like pollard was much here anyway)/Harrison

Don't know if any of it is possible but it would be interesting to pick up some of these rumors.....(this time of year is sooooo slow!)

Check that......won't work cause Shareef is WAY overpriced.... oh well

Hicks
07-30-2004, 12:44 PM
I'll throw out my trade idea. It's a little big for my taste, but I'd probably still do it.

Pacers trade: Tinsley, Artest, Bender, Pollard
Nets trade: Kidd, Jefferson, Collins, Scalabrine

Lineup:

Kidd/Johnson/Gill
Jackson/Miller/Jones
Jefferson/Jackson-Croshere
O'Neal/Croshere
Foster/Collins/Harrison

Mourning
07-30-2004, 12:48 PM
I dont get why the Nets just didnt retain K-Mart and traded Kittles and some other "Luggage"? They will lose almost all if not all of theire quality players now, but maybe that was the intent from the start ...:rolleyes:.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Will Galen
07-30-2004, 01:37 PM
Why is the NBA letting a potential buyer group headed by Bruce Ratner destroy an NBA franchise?

How who we like it if whats happening to New Jersey happened to the Pacer's?

This whole thing smacks of two things, politics, and a lot of money changing hands.

Doug
07-30-2004, 01:49 PM
Why is the NBA letting a potential buyer group headed by Bruce Ratner destroy an NBA franchise?

How who we like it if whats happening to New Jersey happened to the Pacer's?

This whole thing smacks of two things, politics, and a lot of money changing hands.

Well, they let the Hawks give away a lot of their talent last year. That one had a big hand in deciding the eventual NBA champion.

Zesty
07-30-2004, 02:14 PM
And they've been letting Donald Sterling do it for as long as I can remember.

Outsider
07-30-2004, 02:28 PM
Hmmmm....another simpler trade:

Croshere
Pollard
Tinsley

for

Kidd


Works but obviously leaves us thinner up front. But that is three All-stars in the lineup for basically Tins. Kidd is going to cause his value to bottom out by holding out and I think NJ will take what they can get. Also, Croshere is servicable at the PF spot since that is one of several holes.

Question is can you hold down the Center and PF spots with JO, Foster, Bender and Harrison?

Ultimate Frisbee
07-30-2004, 02:34 PM
Hmmmm....another simpler trade:

Croshere
Pollard
Tinsley

for

Kidd


Works but obviously leaves us thinner up front. But that is three All-stars in the lineup for basically Tins. Kidd is going to cause his value to bottom out by holding out and I think NJ will take what they can get. Also, Croshere is servicable at the PF spot since that is one of several holes.

Question is can you hold down the Center and PF spots with JO, Foster, Bender and Harrison?

I'd do it, but I really would love to have Jefferson too...

Kidd is an amazing team leader and one of the few players in the league that can make other players better just by being on the court...

Unclebuck
07-31-2004, 10:16 AM
Here is an update on Kidd and more interesting to me is the details of his injury.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/217503p-187159c.html


Kidd wants out,
two sources say




BY OHM YOUNGMISUK
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER



Jason Kidd, furious over Nets' recent trades, now would welcome being dealt himself.

Jason Kidd met with Rod Thorn and Nets owner-to-be Bruce Ratner yesterday at the team facility, and while Kidd did not demand to be dealt, the point guard is upset and, according to two team sources, would welcome a trade to a contender.

While the Nets have talked about possibly trading Kidd to Dallas, two team officials said nothing is close to happening.

Kidd and his agent, Jeff Schwartz, did not return phone calls yesterday. Ratner, who awaits league approval on his purchase of the team, had no comment."If (Kidd) has any comment about it, he'll make it," said Thorn, the Nets' CEO.

One person with knowledge of the situation said an irate Kidd let it be known after Kenyon Martin was dealt to Denver for three first-round draft picks two weeks ago that he did not want to play for a rebuilding team and would accept a trade to a playoff team like Dallas, which plays the up-tempo style suited for Kidd. The same source said the Nets have discussed the possibility of dealing Kidd for Antoine Walker (who is entering the final year of his contract), Josh Howard and a No. 1 pick.

Numerous people close to Kidd say the point guard is furious with the dismantling of the Nets in recent weeks.

While Kidd vacationed in Mexico, the Nets dealt Martin and Kerry Kittles in cost-cutting trades for a total of three first-round picks and one second-rounder. By parting with two starters who helped Kidd & Co. reach two consecutive NBA Finals, Ratner's Nets have reduced their payroll from over $60 million to the current $49 million to avoid paying the luxury tax.By next summer, the Nets will lose the contracts of Dikembe Mutombo and Alonzo Mourning - who wanted to return but has informed the Nets he will not do so because of the Martin fiasco, according to a source.

Since the Nets likely will add relatively cheap players - perhaps Ron Mercer and Eric Williams - the team's payroll is projected to be under $30 million next summer.The Nets can extend the contracts of Richard Jefferson and Jason Collins starting Sunday.

One source said the team could offer Jefferson a six-year extension worth between $70 million and $75 million.That could help ease Kidd's pain, but enough damage has been done.

"He re-signed with a competitive team trying to win a championship," one teammate said of Kidd, who spurned San Antonio to sign with the Nets for six years and $103 million last offseason. "That is what they sold him on. J-Kidd will be ticked off."


Two other teammates wondered if Kidd will have any motivation to come back after microfracture knee surgery on July 1. It is the same type of procedure that Chris Webber, Allan Houston and Jamal Mashburn all underwent. And all three All-Stars had serious trouble regaining their form last season after the procedure.

Because Kidd has a gigantic contract and could miss all of training camp and even longer, it may be difficult to trade him before the season. "(Ratner) destroyed this team," one Net said. "There is no pressure for (Kidd) to return sooner. There is no point in him busting his rear to come back."

Slick Pinkham
07-31-2004, 09:13 PM
yikes...

If history is a guide, one should in no way to expect Kidd to be anywhere near 100% next year.

A trade for him might be the Grant Hill trade all over again. I'm not sure I'd want to give up even Tins/Pollard/Croshere, since AJ might wind up the starting PG for half the year.

And I definitely would not give up Josh Howard and a #1 pick if I were Dallas, even though they'd be giving up Antoine and get addition by subtraction there.