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View Full Version : I wish we would trade Ron Artest.



hoopsforlife
07-24-2004, 02:08 PM
If the Pacers would trade Ron they would slip back into the middle of the NBA pack and I wouldn't have to spend the rest of my middle age reading Pacer forums and watching Pacer games. :mad:

Why even consider doing something as dumb as trading Ron. He is the gear that makes the engine run well. Take him out of the picture and the engine will stop.

Bottom line. Keep him if you want to win. :confused:

Anthem
07-24-2004, 02:28 PM
:laugh: And here I was ready to make an angry response.

hoopsforlife
07-24-2004, 02:30 PM
:laugh: And here I was ready to make an angry response.

Yeah. I just don't know where the logic in trading one of the hardest working, dedicated to the game, players in the whole league comes from.

:o :(

Burt_Reincarnated
07-24-2004, 02:35 PM
Honest Response: I think it bothers alot of fans to see a black man have an attitude. I also think alot of fans want to see Larry Birds vision of more white superstars a reality in Indiana. Switch skin colors with Ron and all of a sudden Ron's got spirit and is the greatest player ever.

I'm with ya though, It would be hard to be into the team as much if Larry Bird destroys this team by gettin rid of Ron.

Hicks
07-24-2004, 02:38 PM
Burt, I doubt that's the motive of anyone on this forum.

Hicks
07-24-2004, 02:39 PM
And some of you like to say "destroy the team" by trading Ron.

a) who says Ron isn't partially doing that himself behind the scenes (and seeing as how this would be the only reason to trade him, if we do ship him that's why)

and

b) We're not giving him away. We get a talented player BACK. Team destruction averted.

bulletproof
07-24-2004, 02:59 PM
I find it very odd that a lot of people here don't seem to want to acknowledge the fact that Donnie and Larry wouldn't trade Ron if it wasn't with good reason. He's a stellar player with an incredible contract. Gee, couldn't be that there was something else going on there, could it?

SoupIsGood
07-24-2004, 03:01 PM
We need to trade Ron while his value is high. I think we've been covering up some of the "behind the scenes" stuff to keep his trade value high. Plus, I think he just had the best offensive season he will have his whole career, we need to trade him while we can still get a very talented all-star in return (Marion, Jefferson, etc).

I like Ron's D, but I can't stand to watch him with the ball in his hands. His form of offense is trying run the other guy over, and he's not all that great at it.

Mourning
07-24-2004, 03:13 PM
I don't want Jefferson! Let me make that VERY clear, so here goes again .... I DO NOT WANT RICHARD JEFFERSON PLAYING FOR THE INDIANA PACERS!!!

Marion or Pierce I could both live with, although each of the two would severely limit our financial flexibility and we would have to include another player to make it work, probably at center which doesn't improve the position that we would want improved (or atleast most of us, I'm guessing here, want) but no Allen, Iverson, Carter, Dampier OR Jefferson for me:mad:

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

zxc
07-24-2004, 03:16 PM
I really doubt there is as much "behind the scenes" stuff as some make it out to be. With all the media all over the place these days I can't see how we would know so little. What exactly do you guys think he is doing behind the scenes that is so destructive?

PacerMan
07-24-2004, 05:21 PM
Honest Response: I think it bothers alot of fans to see a black man have an attitude. I also think alot of fans want to see Larry Birds vision of more white superstars a reality in Indiana. Switch skin colors with Ron and all of a sudden Ron's got spirit and is the greatest player ever.

I'm with ya though, It would be hard to be into the team as much if Larry Bird destroys this team by gettin rid of Ron.


Naw, some of us just have REAL mixed feelings about him because he's a nut case, or at least a semi-nut.
THAT is the only sticking point for ME with this obviously extremely talented basketball player.

ChicagoJ
07-24-2004, 06:35 PM
Ron might be the best all-around one-on-one player in the game today. I don't dispute that, and I'm one of his loudest distractors on here.

But he continues to display *NO CLUE* when it comes to the team game we know as basketball.

That's all.

Burt,

EDIT - Nevermind, Your post isn't worth commenting on. Other than to say its disappointing that you think that of your fellow Pacers fans.

Suaveness
07-24-2004, 11:28 PM
And I stand by every word I said.

Anthem
07-25-2004, 01:47 AM
But he continues to display *NO CLUE* when it comes to the team game we know as basketball.

But he wants to win, and he's a reasonably intelligent guy, and he's willing to work hard. I really believe he'll figure it out.

It wasn't long ago that Jermaine wasn't exactly great at being part of a team. Ron doesn't have to be perfect to prove himself to me. He just has to keep improving.

Hicks
07-25-2004, 02:01 AM
Jermaine was never even close to the problem Ron can be. Not even close.

Anthem
07-25-2004, 02:33 AM
Jermaine was never even close to the problem Ron can be. Not even close.

Didn't say he was. But in terms of knowing when to pass the ball, how to pass the ball, when to force the shot, he's come a long way. Those are all things he didn't know when he came here, and they're things he knows now.

I probably shouldn't have mentioned Jermaine, because that diverts attention from what's supposed to be my point:

Ron Artest has improved offensively, defensively, mentally, emotionally, and behaviorally every year he's been here. As long as that continues, I don't want to see him moved.

Bball
07-25-2004, 02:47 AM
Honest Response: I think it bothers alot of fans to see a black man have an attitude. I also think alot of fans want to see Larry Birds vision of more white superstars a reality in Indiana. Switch skin colors with Ron and all of a sudden Ron's got spirit and is the greatest player ever.

I'm with ya though, It would be hard to be into the team as much if Larry Bird destroys this team by gettin rid of Ron.

Larry Bird was never the off court, lockerroom distraction Ron is supposed to be. It has nothing to do with skin color... it has everything to do with maturity.

-Bball

able
07-25-2004, 06:33 AM
Well maturing comes over time, in essence that is what it means, but I am hopping on two thoughts here, I don't want to lose Ron, that's for sure, I have another thought on the "distraction"/"pain" he is to the Front office so as long as his teammates like him on the floor,: Nay trde him. If they don't, talk it out and trade only as a last resort against the highest possible value, screw the position, you can always make another trade to get what you wanted in the first place.

Having said that, I think I should explain that "off court" distractions don't count for me as long as they don't ruin the team, I don't care much for the fact that several people have to take care of Ron behind the scenes, after all his contract is a steal (had he been a FA this off-season he would've commanded something very near to the max) so spending something on a full staff of babysitters can well be afforded, if that woudl cost a million a year he woudl still be a cheap player, plus indeed maturation happens over time.

IMO are those that agree with "off court problems" being a reason for a trade softening the blow to themselves if Ron is to be traded, something I understand, but that doesn't mean I agree to it.

I hate fooling myself, Ron leaving this team would be a serious setback, even with a player like Marion or Pierce in return, which won't happen to begin with.

Al being gone could well be another step for Ron in the right direction, let's face it, Al's comments made it clear that he was a seriious disctraction on this team with his desire of being the man, Ron has no such desires, he just wants to win, anything that distracts from that gets him upset, understandable (bt not good, so work on it).

I just hope we keep him, because I have a feeling he will mature, and will be an All Star for many years to come, he WILL mature, if someone else reaps those reward it would definitely not be counted as a smart move of moving him.

For examples: see Rasheed, see Rodman (yes crazy as a door, but one heck of a reboudner and fighter on defense, lots of teams wanted to take risks with, only the Bulls/Jackson were able to deal with him, but hey, if you can, you have a giant on your team)

Ron needs someone special in his bball life that makes him want to behave, a rolemodel, and a lot of support and protection against his family

[member of the keep Ronin Ndy support team]

indygeezer
07-25-2004, 08:43 AM
I would venture to say that most pf you have NO IDEA how stressful it is to deal with somebody who is truelly unstable mentally. If, as has been talked about, RA has a problem that is helped by medication, then as long as he takes it I'm all for him. But his behavior toward the end of the season looked to me like he'd gone off med. That is one probelm with the condition/treatment, many get to feeling better and think they have it whipped. They want to be normal so they convince themselves they don't need the meds and they stop taking them. Otheres feel the meds make them feel lethargic and take the edge off, so they too stop taking them.
The people around these types are constantly on edge because of never knowing how the person might react to any given situation (I'm speaking of the person pre-medication here). And when I say on edge I can relate personally that I once lost 10 lbs in a week while dealing with a bi-polar/paranoid schizo. Every inch of me was tingling like an electrical charge was going thru me. Every waking moment that week was nerve wracking...and there was no sleep.
So if there are issues (and I'm not saying there are...but if there are) then I can fully understand the NEED to remove the person, for the team's own well being.

Anthem
07-25-2004, 11:46 AM
But his behavior toward the end of the season looked to me like he'd gone off med.

Ron was off his meds all year. It wasn't just the end of the season. And I didn't see anything in his behavior in the first two rounds that made me think "That guy's just lost it."

I don't think he's mentally unstable any more than a lot of the people that have had unusual drives throughout history. I mean, if we dopes people throughout history the way we dope people now, we'd have lost half of our geniuses. Schizophrenia isn't what I'm talking about, there's a valid reason for medication there. But forcing meds to make people less tense/depressed/excited/hyper/whatever frustrates me for two reasons: (1) people don't have to take responsibility for their actions (it's not my fault I'm angry, I haven't had my meds), and (2) it' seems to be the preferred technique for a culture that values uniformity over individualism.

PacerMan
07-25-2004, 01:18 PM
But he continues to display *NO CLUE* when it comes to the team game we know as basketball.

But he wants to win, and he's a reasonably intelligent guy, and he's willing to work hard. I really believe he'll figure it out.

It wasn't long ago that Jermaine wasn't exactly great at being part of a team. Ron doesn't have to be perfect to prove himself to me. He just has to keep improving.




There you go. There was a time when I was willing to trade Jermaine IF he didn't do some growing up, as good as it appeared he could be. The constant whining to the refs, the frequent acting like he wanted to fight people when it was obvious he wanted no part of other big guys, etc
What an INCREDIBLE job of maturing he's done, to where he's one of the class acts in the whole league.
Now that they've made there move and traded Al, I don't think there's a chance in hell they even consider moving Ron Artest. I have been on the side of IF he was a major distraction off the court, that maybe they should move him. But I think the trade of AL, and the lack of apparent attempts by the Pacers to trade him, means they find the situation livable. That works for me.
He's got to continue improving his anger control and learning to stay within the team concept. He made great strides this year, I expect he can continue that.
We all hope........

Hicks
07-25-2004, 01:39 PM
You make a decent comparison, guys, when you remind us that JO had problems too, but the thing is this is different. And it's different, because JO was simply immature. Ron has immaturity problems, but also literally mental health issues. The latter is what will likely keep him from ever "getting it".

With that said it's all moot to me, everything I'm hearing from my sources (may sound corny, but believe what you wish) is that Ron is gone. Quite possibly before the season starts.

Anthem
07-25-2004, 03:50 PM
You make a decent comparison, guys, when you remind us that JO had problems too, but the thing is this is different. And it's different, because JO was simply immature. Ron has immaturity problems, but also literally mental health issues. The latter is what will likely keep him from ever "getting it".

Everybody has "mental health issues." Most "mental health issues" can be worked through. Immaturity is one of the top "mental health issues."


With that said it's all moot to me, everything I'm hearing from my sources (may sound corny, but believe what you wish) is that Ron is gone. Quite possibly before the season starts.

Yeah, I heard bulletproof say that too. :devil: I'll believe it when I see it. They're not going to give him away, and I can't see any equitable trades out there. Doesn't leave a whole lot of options.

EDIT: And I'll say it a third time in this thread, because I've yet to see it recognized and I don't think it can be disputed. Ron Artest has made huge strides every year. Until he stops making those strides, it would be foolish to move him. Does anyone disagree with this statement? If so, I want to hear a good reason.

Hicks
07-25-2004, 03:55 PM
You make a decent comparison, guys, when you remind us that JO had problems too, but the thing is this is different. And it's different, because JO was simply immature. Ron has immaturity problems, but also literally mental health issues. The latter is what will likely keep him from ever "getting it".

Everybody has "mental health issues." Most "mental health issues" can be worked through. Immaturity is one of the top "mental health issues."

No, this is more serious "mental issues". Atypical.

SoupIsGood
07-25-2004, 04:19 PM
Okay, Hicks and Bulletproof seem to be pretty confident Ron will be traded. Do either of you guys have any thoughts on where he will end up? I keep hearing he will be traded, by at least the trade deadline, but both of you seem to be keeping quiet about where you think he will go.

Hicks
07-25-2004, 04:52 PM
Boston or Sacramento.

Mourning
07-25-2004, 04:55 PM
For Peja, my god I hope not!!!:o

Mourning
07-25-2004, 04:56 PM
EVEN more opposed to Peja IF SacTown would want us to throw in picks, which would be VERY likely

MSA2CF
07-25-2004, 07:24 PM
Boston or Sacramento.

Let me guess. The Ainge or Pollard connection.

SoupIsGood
07-25-2004, 07:44 PM
God I hope we don't trade to Sacramento. However, if we trade for Pierce, I will be dancing in the streets. :dance:

But, what kind of trade would convince Boston to do this. Simply swapping Pierce for Artest makes no sense, and we no longer have harrington, I don't see what we could offer them to make them do it. A combo of Croshere/Artest/Pollard/James Jones/Resigned Brewer/Multiple Draft picks would be the most i would give up. If they throw in Blount, I would throw in bender or Freddie, but I don't see them doing that.

Lord Helmet
07-25-2004, 08:06 PM
Marion?:laugh:I don't think we should trade Ron at all.He is a hardworker and is commited to getting this team over the hump.Don't trade Ron.

RimBender
07-25-2004, 08:13 PM
:confused:

Out of the three mentioned, Peja, The Truth, and Matrix, I would want Matrix, I don't know why most of you are down on him, but have you honestly seen him play more then just every now and then. He is a great player who can do it all. And he CAN create his own shot. His shot is not pretty but that don't matter as long as it goes in.

ChicagoJ
07-25-2004, 09:35 PM
EDIT: And I'll say it a third time in this thread, because I've yet to see it recognized and I don't think it can be disputed. Ron Artest has made huge strides every year. Until he stops making those strides, it would be foolish to move him. Does anyone disagree with this statement? If so, I want to hear a good reason.


For all the progress he makes, its two steps forward and three steps back.

For all the alleged progress he makes, why do we still talk about the same things - mental lapses (aka selfish behavior) that cost us games on a recurring basis? This topic has followed him since before his Pacers days, and its still an issue.

Hicks
07-25-2004, 10:07 PM
Peja's the worst of those three, but I still wouldn't mind. I mean the man shot 43% from 3 last year. :o Yes, I know about the playoffs. His dropped stats are still what Ron got offensively (because Ron's not a good shooter).

NewType
07-25-2004, 10:50 PM
EDIT: And I'll say it a third time in this thread, because I've yet to see it recognized and I don't think it can be disputed. Ron Artest has made huge strides every year. Until he stops making those strides, it would be foolish to move him. Does anyone disagree with this statement? If so, I want to hear a good reason.


For all the progress he makes, its two steps forward and three steps back.

For all the alleged progress he makes, why do we still talk about the same things - mental lapses (aka selfish behavior) that cost us games on a recurring basis? This topic has followed him since before his Pacers days, and its still an issue.

I thought that Ron's biggest problem during the 02-03 season was not being able to control his anger (his flagrant fouls and breaking/throwing stuff). His "selfish behavior" wasn't the biggest concern for most of us at the time.

Last season, he made great progress in controlling his anger. The flagrant fouls and anger issues were pretty much gone. With his biggest problem gone, we started to focus on his other problems.

What I saw was a man trying to do too much when situations got tough. He tried to put too much on himself when he should have reached out and trusted his teammates. I dare to say most people have times in their lives trying to do too much when the situations get tough (not asking for directions when you are lost, anyone?). All confident people have problems in defering to others during tough times. Remember Paul Pierce in Basketball World Championship. He was very selfish because he was trying to do way too much. And now, some of us want to get him.

It seems that Ron still have trust issue with his teammates. This is in some way understandable. After the turmoil during the 2nd half of 02-03 season, the chemistry of this team is still relatively fragile, even though they have been together for a few yeras. However, trust can be built and I believe that with another year, the trust issue would be better.

I admit that flagrant foul at the end of game 6 is a huge mistake, but does it warrant to tarde him? This is like the out cry of hatred after Kevin Ollie missed that lay-up in game 5 vs NJ. IIRC, some people missed him not long into the 02-03 season.

I guess what I want to say is I'm not condoning what he did. But give him another year before we decide whether he should be gone or not. If situation persists, then ship his @ss out. In the mean time, be patient. I know some of you will say that we said the same thing a year ago. But it was about his anger problem last year and it is about his selfish behavior this year.

According to some of us, if he is really that unbearable right now, why would other teams want to trade equal value for him? If that's the case, are we willing to accept much lower value for him?

Anthem
07-26-2004, 12:52 AM
For all the progress he makes, its two steps forward and three steps back.

For all the alleged progress he makes, why do we still talk about the same things - mental lapses (aka selfish behavior) that cost us games on a recurring basis? This topic has followed him since before his Pacers days, and its still an issue.

No, it's more like 3 steps forward and 1 step back.

I'm really struggling with "cost us games on a recurring basis." Besides the last game of the season, how many games do you think he lost us last year? I mean, we won 60 freaking games... more than anybody else in the league. He can't have cost us THAT many. And you've got to admit that he won us an awful lot of games, as well. Like, most of Round 2.

If he hadn't screwed up in the last 5 minutes of our last game of the season, we wouldn't be having this conversation. In fact, up until Round 3 everyone was singing his praises for how far he'd come.

indygeezer
07-26-2004, 12:53 AM
Anthem...I will agree that Ron made huge strides this year. In not committing flagrants, until the end. Then the pressure got to him and he lost it somewhat. But he made strides. EXCEPT...I see Ron as a little kid. Pushing the limits. You show him where the limits are...he'll test them elsewhere. I can't swim naked in the birdbath??? Then how about breaking windows with rocks? I can't throw elbows or trip the opposition? Well how about biatching about the play calling?? Can I get away with that? No? How about missing practice can I get away with that? Well how about...on and on ad infinitum.

When is enough, enough? I recognize his talent and value (when not pressure) and you can ask Writerman, along with Uncle Buck, I was one of Ron's staunchest defenders last year. But I'm seeing things that don't look normal to me, and make me doubt his ability to ever handle stress without help.

<BTW Anthem...I too hate unnecessary medicating. I have a grandson the Dr. put on Ridlin until my son threw it away, whipped the kids butt, and drew the line in the sand. Miracle of Miracles...no more behavior problems at school. I'm with ya there.

Anthem
07-26-2004, 01:01 AM
I see Ron as a little kid. Pushing the limits. You show him where the limits are...he'll test them elsewhere.

Sure he does. But the most amazing thing happens to kids... THEY GROW OUT OF IT. Absolutely he can be immature. But he's more mature this year than last, and I want to know what other people are seeing that makes them doubt that he'll be more mature next year than this year.

I haven't got an answer beyond Hicks' "He's got severe mental problems." And we know that's not a competent diagnosis, because if it was he'd have said "emotional issues." Artest's intelligence is (so far) not in question.

EDIT: What really makes me crazy is the idea that Ron's poor shot selection is killing our team, but that it would be ok to trade for Paul Pierce, who doesn't do D and costs twice as much. We saw what happened when PP and Ron went head-to-head. Ron DESTROYED him.

indygeezer
07-26-2004, 01:08 AM
EDIT: What really makes me crazy is the idea that Ron's poor shot selection is killing our team, but that it would be ok to trade for Paul Pierce, who doesn't do D and costs twice as much. We saw what happened when PP and Ron went head-to-head. Ron DESTROYED him.

Well I certainly never said it was OK to trade for Pierce. I saw him in the World Games and have never liked him since!!
But there ARE players I COULD see trading for.

Anthem
07-26-2004, 01:23 AM
Well I certainly never said it was OK to trade for Pierce. I saw him in the World Games and have never liked him since!!
But there ARE players I COULD see trading for.

Fair enough. I'm ok with losing any player on the team (including JO) if it brings back equal or greater value. I just don't see many players that I'd consider equal value, and Pierce certainly isn't one of them. I actually like Peja a lot, although I'd still have a hard time giving Ron for him. Shawn Marion's a nice player, and I'd be wiling to lose Bender for him, but not Artest.

Who did you have in mind?

indygeezer
07-26-2004, 01:32 AM
I'm a big fan of Peja...I just wish he'd shave I absolutely hate that 3 day growth look so many pro athletes sport nowdays.

I would have been willing to give up Ron (+others) for McGrady. ...(ok I'm begging off here...it's late and I've been driving all day ...I'll fill in more list in AM).

Anthem
07-26-2004, 01:39 AM
I'm a big fan of Peja...I just wish he'd shave I absolutely hate that 3 day growth look so many pro athletes sport nowdays.

I would have been willing to give up Ron (+others) for McGrady. ...(ok I'm begging off here...it's late and I've been driving all day ...I'll fill in more list in AM).

Yeah, I'd have made the trade for McGrady. But there's not many else out there that I'd spring for. Same with JO. I'd trade him straight up for Duncan or Garnett, but nobody else.

indygeezer
07-26-2004, 07:40 AM
During the night a question occured to me. Say a trade was proposed between Indy and Sac for Peja... and the Sac mnmgnt went to Brad Miller and asked what he thought. What do you suppose he'd tell them???


OK a few I would consider (realizing that it would take extras one way or the other to even things up, but I like these guys well enough to consider a trade if they were included) Outside the obvious and in no order:

Blount with Welsch
St. Nash
Mike Finely
Andre Kirelenko
Szczerbiak
Tony Parker
Ginoboli
Ray Allen
Calvin Booth
Kwame Brown
Magloire/Mashburn
Mike Redd
TJ Ford
Dwayne Wade
Brian Grant
Amare Stoudamire
Shawn MArion
Q. Richardson

I already mention Peja
doubtful I'd do Damp even straight up.

and remember I said I consider SOME of these if they were INCLUDED in a deal, not necessarily straight up, but as principal pieces I'd probably do it.

SoupIsGood
07-26-2004, 08:04 AM
Kwame Brown would be nice to have, to play at center, but I'm not gonna give up Artest for him. Brown/Jamison/Draft Picks would be interesting though...

skyfire
07-26-2004, 09:04 AM
Dont trade Ron. We wont get close to equal value in return. I'm amazed that so many people are down on him, I guess its a case of what has he done for me lately, everyone thinks that he blew the ECFs. Its all experience, this team hasn't gotten close to going that deep into the playoffs before and were beaten by a team that had gone through it all last season.

Ron has improved out of sight, its crazy for people to say that he is taking 2 steps forward 3 steps back. As long as Ron keeps improving then why even think about trading him, his temper is greatly improved and now you guys question his shot selection. That will improve too with experience he has gained this season and postseason.

bulletproof
07-26-2004, 09:35 AM
You don't skip practices, miss flights and travel solo during the playoffs. It's as simple as that. Imagine the tension and unease that created and how everyone must have felt wondering if Ron was going to melt or even show up to the games at all. Then on top of that, he blew off a meeting he had scheduled with his boss. And this is only what happened during the playoffs. You'd be naive to think these were isolated incidences.

Suaveness
07-26-2004, 09:53 AM
I love how Ron does a few things and now he's a bad boy.

RimBender
07-26-2004, 10:12 AM
I love how Ron does a few things and now he's a bad boy.

Yah, like flicking off fans, almost getting into a fight with a coach and breaking camera equpiment, I mean everyone does that once in awhile. :laugh:

And thats just some of the things he's done. Great player, bad attitude.

Suaveness
07-26-2004, 10:12 AM
I love how Ron does a few things and now he's a bad boy.

A few things?

:laugh:

Yes, a few things.

Suaveness
07-26-2004, 10:13 AM
I love how Ron does a few things and now he's a bad boy.

Yah, like flicking off fans, almost getting into a fight with a coach and breaking camera equpiment, I mean everyone does that once in awhile. :laugh:

And thats just some of the things he's done. Great player, bad attitude.

:rolleyes: If we can't get over 02-03, then there is no point having this debate.

RimBender
07-26-2004, 10:16 AM
Hey, I just listed a few, How bout him forearming Rip in the playoffs while we were tryna make a run?:mad:

Suaveness
07-26-2004, 10:24 AM
I love how Ron does a few things and now he's a bad boy.

A few things?

:laugh:

Yes, a few things.

I want to live in your world!

"Sunshine, lollipops, and raaaaainbows everywhere........."

:p

I never took a fancy to lollipops for some reason...they always ran out too early. Too small, I think.

Suaveness
07-26-2004, 10:25 AM
Hey, I just listed a few, How bout him forearming Rip in the playoffs while we were tryna make a run?:mad:

He didnt forearm him. He had is arm up, Rip ran into it on purpose, acted like he lost his head, and Ron got a flagrant.

RimBender
07-26-2004, 10:30 AM
LOL!!!!!:o:laugh::laugh::laugh:

No, Artest hit him right in the face because Rip got him good earlier. He basically cost us the game. No reason to do something stupid like that. Again great player, bad attitude.

Suaveness
07-26-2004, 10:38 AM
You should go read Rip's postgame statements.

RimBender
07-26-2004, 10:42 AM
You should go read Rip's postgame statements.

...........................

MSA2CF
07-26-2004, 10:48 AM
:confused:

Out of the three mentioned, Peja, The Truth, and Matrix, I would want Matrix, I don't know why most of you are down on him, but have you honestly seen him play more then just every now and then. He is a great player who can do it all. And he CAN create his own shot. His shot is not pretty but that don't matter as long as it goes in.


I have to admit I havent seen him play but a fewtimes, but from what I have read, that is his biggest knock. He is a great finisher, but cant create his own shot.

But would that really matter here? It seems he may fit in well here. Reggie does not create his own shot anymore, but the Pacers create screens pretty well for him, so Marion could just take over that role. (edit: I'm not for trading Ron; but I could live with a Marion/Artest swap. The #1 thing is that I don't want an Eastern Conference team to acquire him if he should go.)

bulletproof
07-26-2004, 10:50 AM
I love how Ron does a few things and now he's a bad boy.

What part of this is acceptable during a deep playoff run?

You don't skip practices, miss flights and travel solo during the playoffs. It's as simple as that. Imagine the tension and unease that created and how everyone must have felt wondering if Ron was going to melt or even show up to the games at all. Then on top of that, he blew off a meeting he had scheduled with his boss. And this is only what happened during the playoffs. You'd be naive to think these were isolated incidences.

Unclebuck
07-26-2004, 12:32 PM
I have been strangly silent on the topic of Ron Artest lately.

But I won't remain silent on the "flagrant foul" which to my way of thinking was more fragrant than flagrant.

I see harder fouls 20 times a game in the post and off the ball. Ron's foul was on the ball in a clear out situation so no one could miss it. I know we discussed for days on end after the playoffs, but there are some new people on board now.

Ron lifted his arm on purpose, pointed his elbow on purpose, but he did not extend the elbow, swing the elbow, plus he just got hit in the balls.

So it was a questionable flagrant to begin with, and that hardly cost the Pacers the game.

The long shot by Ron was with 15 seconds left, Pacers down either 4 or 5 pts, it was a dumb shot.

Now as far as the stuff BP just mentioned that concerns me much more than the two bad plays.

RimBender
07-26-2004, 12:36 PM
I can't believe ya'll are in denial, Ima HUGE Pacer fan and I seen Ron hit him in the face. Why would he have his arm that high to begin with? It WAS a flagrant foul and it DID cost us the game. The energy switched to the Pistons and we got beat.

There was no accident in this, Ron has a history of stuff EXACTLY like this.

Unclebuck
07-26-2004, 12:58 PM
I can't believe ya'll are in denial, Ima HUGE Pacer fan and I seen Ron hit him in the face. Why would he have his arm that high to begin with? It WAS a flagrant foul and it DID cost us the game. The energy switched to the Pistons and we got beat.

There was no accident in this, Ron has a history of stuff EXACTLY like this.


If I take your assumption that Ron's flagrant cost the Pacers the game, then I have to argue that he does not have a history of this. The only other thing I could compare it to was the game in Pheonix in 2002 about 2 weeks after he was traded to the Pacers, that was when Ron blocked off a defender on a fast break and the ref called a foul on Ron nullifying the 2 points Pacers scored.


I am not in denial, not in the least. go back and watch the 4th quarter again, soemthing I did a week ago, and the momentum switched to the Pistons long before the foul on Ron

RimBender
07-26-2004, 01:11 PM
We are all Pacer fans and I'm not here to argue, But in MY opinion, and I bet there are other people who agree, In my eyes, Artest did it intentionally do it to get back at Rip, Which resulted in an emotional charge from the Pistons, which ended in us losing the game.

Again that is my opinion, not an agrument starter.

Go Pacers

Mourning
07-26-2004, 01:20 PM
Artest has luggage, yes, I dont deny that at all, but come on IF you can't see the HUGE changes from the 2002-03 season to the 2003-04 season, than you are not watching him objectively IMO. Just think of how Ron got a punch in the mouth somewhere during the regular season by I think Glenn Robinson, but Im not sure, didnt respond and just took his foul shots and we won the game easily, now you can always FIND something, with Ron you will find more, but IF cancelling an end season-meeting is enough to get you traded or stuff like that, boy, the NBA would be trading a third if not more of its players each year.

Give the guy some slack, do you really think the Pacers would have gotten the record they ended the season with without Ron? And equal value is NOT what we are going to get back, except if we take on a bad contract which destroys all future flexibility. I want Ron to stay, someone said here for every step he takes he takes three back, thats ludicrous. If you feel that way than I can only think that you wouldnt like Ron WHATEVER he would do, the problem is than not Ron, but you.

I'm getting pretty sick of this "trade Artest"-hysteria.
If he will be traded than he will be traded, but stop denouncing the good things he has done by only focusing on the negatives and not mentioning the good things he has done for the team.

Somehow Im almost hoping we get Bonzi, SAR, Allen, Carter in return, so I can say to some people here "told you so!" next season, but I love the Pacers too much for that.:rant:

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Hicks
07-26-2004, 02:15 PM
Mourning, if we get someone like Bonzi for Ron, I will be ranting with the current set of "DONT TRADE RON" crowd.

But if we get something more like Pierce or Peja, I won't.

Unclebuck
07-26-2004, 03:00 PM
Two things I inisist on.
If the Pacers trade Ron.

1) They better get an allstar

2) They better be 100% sure that they have done everything possible to correct "Ron's problems" They better be 100% sure that Ron's effect on the current team is beyond repair. They better be 100% sure his teammates have had enough, and they better convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that Ron is a lost cause.

Reason I say this is because, if Ron's game improves in the next two or three years like I expect, and if for whatever reason he cleans up all the extra stuff, Ron will be a top 5 player in the NBA, and you don't trade those guys. If Ron figures it out, he and J.O would be the best 1-2 punch in the NBA and they will win a championship within 3 years.

I cannot say that about the combo of Peja & J.O or Bonzi and J.O.

MSA2CF
07-26-2004, 03:18 PM
They better...

...or else UB goes on a rampage! :maniac: :death:

Mourning
07-26-2004, 04:03 PM
They better...

...or else UB goes on a rampage! :maniac: :death:




And so might I in Europe b4 going into a deep state of my namessake;).

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

Mourning
07-26-2004, 04:11 PM
Mourning, if we get someone like Bonzi for Ron, I will be ranting with the current set of "DONT TRADE RON" crowd.

But if we get something more like Pierce or Peja, I won't.

I know you think that way, but I dont see where we could realistically get Pierce without seriously gutting the team and te great balance it has now. I also believe that putting Pierce, Jackson and JO on the same team we would be getting problems on who gets to shoot sooner rather than later. I like Pierce, but with Jackson and JO I think we have too many people who like to take a large number of shots.

Peja, I dunno he has such a sweet shot, but I really dont want another outside shooter with no serious will to drive into the bucket or will to force his man back let stand someone who does not intimidate his opponents on D. He doesnt have the atrocious D some people think he has, but its still at best average. Anyway, with Peja I think we will become to weak, way too weak inside after losing Brad Miller last year, Al this year and than also Ron Artest who bullies his way inside more than most SFs.

Regards,

Mourning:cool:

fwpacerfan
07-26-2004, 04:21 PM
So much to respond to where to begin?

I've lost a lot of respect for many people on this forum on the Ron Artest issue. There is a sort of 'witch hunt' on Artest around here by several people who didn't have the guts to say anything negative about Artest for the entire season. Ron's behavior was immensly better this year and everyone that is now dogging him were very very quiet. Why? Because Ron was a changed man. Even so, Ron is not perfect and he will mess up every once in a while. All a reasonable person can expect is for the person to show improvement. For Ron, it took until the last quarter of the last game of the year for him to do something but when he did, guess what - all of the people who didn't have the backbone to say anything all year all of sudden start piling on. It's sad but it says a lot about these people.

Ron's behavior was wrong but the flagrant foul was a very weak call and it alone DID NOT cost the Pacers the game. Ron's 'ballhogging' that occurred during the Piston's series seemed to me to be a result of him trying to will this team to victory. No one else was agressively going to the bucket during most of these times. During the 4th quarter of game 6 against Detroit Ron came down and basically screamed at JO to get in position so he could get him the ball, no one else seemed to realize that the team had gotten away from what was successful early on in the game. To me Ron seems to understand this offense better than many of his teammates, which is why Carlisle puts the ball in his hands many times to start the offense.

I will agree that IF Ron is traded there is many things going on behind the scenes. DW and Bird do not make those kinds of deals without having a very good reason.

Burt_Reincarnated
07-27-2004, 01:27 AM
Did my post get censored? It wasn't that bad was it? Geesh, guess I know how the Admins feel about Ron Artest, how dare anyone not say he is crazy!

Problem solved, delete that point of view. Well I wont burden your minds with too much thought on this subject anymore. If I post it will be all Rah Rah go pacer talk from now on. Maybe it was just some glitch, in which case no big deal.

Here is a few dancing Bavettas for you to ease your mind. Rah Rah go pacers :dancingbavetta:
:dancingbavetta:
:dancingbavetta:

Hicks
07-27-2004, 01:34 AM
God forbid the forum screwed up. :rolleyes: :unimpressed:

No one touched your post.

Burt_Reincarnated
07-27-2004, 01:37 AM
It's all good Mr. Hicks.

Don't trade AL, I mean Dont trade Ron.

Hicks
07-27-2004, 02:18 AM
I wonder how many fans would freak out over this trade:

Tinsley
Fred
Artest

for

Jackson
Stojakovic

Jackson/Johnson
Jackson/Miller
Stojakovic/Bender
O'Neal/Croshere
Foster/Pollard-Harrison

That's a kick-*** lineup. Bobby plays very good defense, and has a high 3p% to boot.

Anthem
07-27-2004, 03:24 AM
I wonder how many fans would freak out over this trade:

Tinsley / Fred / Artest
for
Jackson / Stojakovic

I wouldn't like that trade at all. I love Bobby Jackson but that's way too much to give for him, especially with no guarantee we'd keep him.

If Bird/Donnie decide that Artest absolutely HAD to be moved, I'd consider Peja, Jackson, and Songaila for Artest, Croshere, and Jones. But as I've made clear in this thread, I'm in no way convinced that Artest has to be moved. And if he's not, then that's not a good trade.

Bball
07-27-2004, 02:34 PM
I found this quote on the web... Thought it worthy of inclusion on this thread:

"Ron Artest is an All-Star from the neck down"

That was from some online paper prior to last season. Make of it what you will.

-Bball

Unclebuck
07-27-2004, 03:50 PM
I found this quote on the web... Thought it worthy of inclusion on this thread:

"Ron Artest is an All-Star from the neck down"

That was from some online paper prior to last season. Make of it what you will.

-Bball


That greatly discounts Ron's warrior attitude on the court, the effort he puts forth, the energy he brings, the desire to play every second like it is game 7 of the NBA Finals

Ron is not the best athlete on the Pacers, not even close, yes he has quick feet and is extremely strong, but he is not a great leaper, not very fast.

Ron has an above average basketball IQ.

So no that quote is not even close to telling even half of the story on Ronnie

indygeezer
07-27-2004, 04:00 PM
Some of us who are reluctantly dogging him now WERE his biggest supporters, but I know I held my breath all year, praying that he didn't drop the other shoe. Unfortunately, IMO he waited til the PO's and not only dropped the other shoe, he threw it out the window.

Cumulative effect...the more he does, the more it adds up.

Suaveness
07-27-2004, 05:02 PM
:rolleyes:

fwpacerfan
07-27-2004, 05:23 PM
:rolleyes:

Agreed!

bulletproof
07-27-2004, 08:03 PM
:rolleyes:

Agreed!

:rolleyes:

Pig Nash
07-27-2004, 08:46 PM
We shouldn't trade ron unless we absolutely have to and i don't think that time has come.