PDA

View Full Version : Star: Hoosier Hysteria is doomed



Putnam
03-02-2010, 08:58 AM
The future is bleak.

Forget about 100 years from now; by then, we all might be reduced to cosmic dust. How about 25 years?

"It's too depressing to think about," said Lawrence North coach Jack Keefer. "A very sad subject, in my book."



http://www.indystar.com/article/20100302/SPORTS15/3020329/At-100-high-school-basketball-tourney-is-ailing

IndyStar
March2, 2010
(unsigned)



There are going to be a lot of celebrations, a lot of retrospectives as the Indiana high school basketball tournament celebrates its 100th birthday this week.

So why aren't Indiana high school basketball coaches putting on party hats, blowing up balloons and offering toasts to this grand institution's glorious future?

Simple.

The future is bleak.

Forget about 100 years from now; by then, we all might be reduced to cosmic dust. How about 25 years?

"It's too depressing to think about," said Lawrence North coach Jack Keefer. "A very sad subject, in my book."

North Central's Doug Mitchell sees an ugly future dominated by the corporate-run Amateur Athletic Union or semipro teams, with high school basketball either gone or reduced to an afterthought.

"Twenty-five years from now, I just hope we're not the Jiffy Lube Panthers," Mitchell said during last week's Downtown Showdown at Conseco Fieldhouse. "It'll be semipro, basically."

There are three big problems that not only have helped dampen enthusiasm but also have curtailed attendance as boys sectionals begin tonight:

Multiclass basketball. Old argument, but the issue never dies. Indiana high school basketball hasn't been the same since the change was instituted after the 1997 season.

"I'll go to my grave saying class basketball was not a positive thing," Mitchell said. "That's what the Indiana tradition was. You don't think Fort Wayne Luers wouldn't mind one class? You don't think Danville wouldn't like to play one class? When (class basketball) happened, the air got let out of the balloon."

The economy. With the country in the throes of a recession, school funding is down, meaning funding for extracurricular activities such as high school basketball is down. So who's going to pay? Not the schools, to be sure. Probably businesses, corporations.

The Taco Bell Wildcats.

"Really, I think finances are what will end (high school basketball)," Keefer said. "We just voted not to have mandatory P.E. (physical education); well, we're a fat little community already, aren't we? And we're cutting P.E.? It's all dollars and cents. We've got to change the way we fund things, or it's going to change high school athletics as we know it."

AAU basketball. While high school basketball shrinks, the summer leagues grow like weeds. The NCAA has tried to limit the influence of AAU hoops, but it hasn't been enough. For some of the top players, the ones who know they'll be playing in front of a who's-who of college coaches during the summer, AAU is a bigger deal than the high school season."If nothing is done, it's going to become a monster," Pike coach Phil Spoljaric said. "Shoot, it's already a monster."

The summer leagues feature lots of games, usually in front of college coaches, and very little coaching. It's basketball's Wild West. "You get to go to Vegas for a tournament. The coaches are downstairs gambling, and they're hoping the kids are behaving in their rooms," Keefer said.

AAU serves a purpose -- and Mitchell is quick to note there are some well-intentioned coaches who do a decent job -- but kids don't learn the kinds of life lessons during the summer they get during the high school season.

AAU coaches won't work the phones to help players earn scholarships; Mitchell estimates that in his 17 years, his staff has helped players secure roughly $3.5 million in scholarships.

"If there's an AAU coach out there who is working as hard as Jack (Keefer) and myself and (Warren Central's) Greg Graham and people around Marion County, I want to meet him," Mitchell said. "This is what we do. We're educators. We're at the schools. We know what their grades are. If you take that away, you lose something that's very important."

Times change; we know that. Indiana high school basketball is no longer a rural phenomenon, no longer the central focus of so many small farming towns. The game is more urban now, and it's less of a community centerpiece. And there are more entertainment options now, even if high school hoops remains one of the best bargains around.

Whatever was left of one of Indiana's great institutions was plundered when the IHSAA foolishly punted the one-class system and went to multiclass basketball.

Now, it's not only diminished, playing before smaller crowds, it's downright endangered.

Indiana high school basketball will never be restored to its former glory, but it is a cherished keepsake that must somehow be preserved.

At the age of 100, Indiana high school basketball can look back on a lifetime's worth of fond memories. But the mind and body are becoming frail, and the future is frightfully uncertain.

"I feel sorry for the kids and the young coaches; they have no clue what it used to be like, how important it was to the communities, how important it was to the kids and the coaches," Keefer said. "Those days are gone."

Happy birthday. And good luck.

sweabs
03-02-2010, 12:24 PM
Is the book out yet? I can't manage to find it...

the jaddler
03-02-2010, 02:39 PM
Yeah only time will tell but i also see that high school sports being taken over by corporate money......

Bball
03-02-2010, 02:54 PM
I don't even know what corporate money in HS sports would matter (as in hurting).... except you'd have some schools more easily able to get sponsorships and others not so easy.

Sponsorships won't change the dwindling interest in the games or how games that once had regional, statewide, sometimes even national interest now only mean something to the two towns or schools competing. And even that is watered down.

And I'd be careful looking to sponsorships as a last ditch savior anyway... The declining interest in Indiana HS basketball isn't going to make it very attractive to potential sponsors.

Anyone who doesn't blame multiclass basketball for what has happened to "Hoosier Hysteria" just isn't paying attention or has had a heavy dose of Kool Aid. The massive drop in interest, and money, almost immediately followed the introduction of class basketball and just cannot be argued with.

The IHSAA took a state treasure and threw it away. What did they expect was going to happen?

Putnam
03-02-2010, 02:55 PM
I think this paragraph gets it wrong.


Times change; we know that. Indiana high school basketball is no longer a rural phenomenon, no longer the central focus of so many small farming towns. The game is more urban now, and it's less of a community centerpiece.
I don't think the game is urban. I think it is suburban. It is an important distinction.

The inner city schools are lapsed as much as the rural schools are. And the rural schools are on such poor footing generally that the only "central focus" is fighting against forced consolidation and cuts in faculty or programs.

My alma mater lost its basketball coach at the beginning of this year and wasn't allowed to hire a new one because of state hiring rules. So the parents have spent this season angry (and I'm taking about "Run you right up the Monon Line" angry) at the poor math teacher who got dragooned into coaching the team.



.

indygeezer
03-02-2010, 03:14 PM
Coming from a small HS (it still only graduates 70+/- a year) I hated what they did and predicted this at the time. I'm proud to say that I was able to witness the last two single class finals in person.

BTW......club sports have been in vogue in Europe forever. No HS sports.

Since86
03-02-2010, 03:26 PM
All I can say, is you guys are talking in absolutes, and that's just not the case everywhere in Indiana.

the jaddler
03-02-2010, 05:29 PM
I think this paragraph gets it wrong.


I don't think the game is urban. I think it is suburban. It is an important distinction.

The inner city schools are lapsed as much as the rural schools are. And the rural schools are on such poor footing generally that the only "central focus" is fighting against forced consolidation and cuts in faculty or programs.

My alma mater lost its basketball coach at the beginning of this year and wasn't allowed to hire a new one because of state hiring rules. So the parents have spent this season angry (and I'm taking about "Run you right up the Monon Line" angry) at the poor math teacher who got dragooned into coaching the team.



.

what school?

Putnam
03-02-2010, 06:32 PM
Southern Wells.

I live in Putnam County now, but grew up in Wells County.


.

clownskull
03-05-2010, 05:54 PM
the ihsaa will never admit it made a mistake going to class basketball. they would rather see it die than to admit to their mistake. their egos are too big to admit has been a failure.

Major Cold
03-25-2010, 09:23 PM
Basketball is dying because football is king of America.

Bball
03-25-2010, 09:48 PM
the ihsaa will never admit it made a mistake going to class basketball. they would rather see it die than to admit to their mistake. their egos are too big to admit has been a failure.


I agree with this. There were reasons they did what they did, but I don't think they realized the death spiral they would put on Indiana HS basketball. I think they thought it was strong for reasons other than just the winner take all tournament and would survive just fine without it (if not 4 times better with 4 champions!)... but they misjudged the importance of the winner take all tournament to the citizens of Indiana, and ultimately to the game itself.

...And they're not going to admit in order to appease some entities they ended up putting the Golden Goose on life support... if not killing her entirely.


I read somewhere that the IHSAA was alright with basketball being notched back a little in popularity so that the spotlight could be shared with some other sports and allow room for their growth. Not sure how true that is, and I'm sure they didn't expect basketball to take this large of a hit, but it does seem football has risen in Indiana. Then again, it could be coincidence based on the rise of pro football in Indiana getting roots.

indygeezer
03-26-2010, 10:25 AM
I wonder how many of the commisars er commissioners grew up in Indiana and how many have a tainted background. And yes, football IS supplanting basketball as America's fav.

travmil
03-26-2010, 03:00 PM
And yes, football HAS supplanted basketball as America's fav.

fixed...

indygeezer
03-27-2010, 10:21 AM
fixed...

no doubt.

PacerDude
03-27-2010, 10:46 AM
All I can say, is you guys are talking in absolutes ......... No. Some of us are talking in Cabo Wabos. Others in Jim Beams. Some in Budweiser. We're a pretty diverse group.

:buddies:

owl
03-27-2010, 09:36 PM
I don't even know what corporate money in HS sports would matter (as in hurting).... except you'd have some schools more easily able to get sponsorships and others not so easy.

Sponsorships won't change the dwindling interest in the games or how games that once had regional, statewide, sometimes even national interest now only mean something to the two towns or schools competing. And even that is watered down.

And I'd be careful looking to sponsorships as a last ditch savior anyway... The declining interest in Indiana HS basketball isn't going to make it very attractive to potential sponsors.

Anyone who doesn't blame multiclass basketball for what has happened to "Hoosier Hysteria" just isn't paying attention or has had a heavy dose of Kool Aid. The massive drop in interest, and money, almost immediately followed the introduction of class basketball and just cannot be argued with.

The IHSAA took a state treasure and threw it away. What did they expect was going to happen?

I would have hit the thanks button but it was not an option. I think educational philosophy had a alot to do with it also. The class system costs more and generates less. A true winning combination. Single class is what drove the little schools and players to strive for
a shot at it all. If single class came back you would see a revival.

Hicks
03-27-2010, 09:45 PM
From my experience, it seems like the people who play the games like the class system, but the fans typically don't. Which is more important?

Bball
03-28-2010, 07:03 PM
From my experience, it seems like the people who play the games like the class system, but the fans typically don't. Which is more important?

You might be polling the wrong people. Poll people who played in the single tournament system and see if they would've preferred a class system or the system they were in.

pwee31
03-28-2010, 08:43 PM
For those who play the games now, it's all they know. Plus kids these days aren't into history, and how things use to be. They just want to win, it doesn't matter if you're not the one a only state champion, you're a state champion nonetheless.

I think class basketball has ruined Indiana High School basketball. I understand football some because football is a lot of force and which lineman are stronger and faster then the other lineman. Which players are bigger and stronger then the other plays, and yeah it's like that in a lot of sports but in basketball you have a chance.

You can shorten the game taking the air out of the ball, run sets or plays, have a certain style that teams have trouble with. play a zone. use the 3 point shot or free throw line as a neutralizer.

I use to love the underdog story of a small school upsetting a team in the sectional. Having one #1 team in the state that you knew was the best and everyone was trying to knock off. Big gyms like Anderson's Wigwam and New Castle's Fieldhouse jammed packed with school spirit for the sectional or regional.

It's not the same anymore, and probably never will be.

Since86
03-29-2010, 12:42 PM
No. Some of us are talking in Cabo Wabos. Others in Jim Beams. Some in Budweiser. We're a pretty diverse group.

:buddies:

After going back and rereading how I said that, makes me think I'm the one that was drinking the Absolut.....

Ick.

Since86
03-29-2010, 12:54 PM
For those who play the games now, it's all they know. Plus kids these days aren't into history, and how things use to be. They just want to win, it doesn't matter if you're not the one a only state champion, you're a state champion nonetheless.

I think class basketball has ruined Indiana High School basketball. I understand football some because football is a lot of force and which lineman are stronger and faster then the other lineman. Which players are bigger and stronger then the other plays, and yeah it's like that in a lot of sports but in basketball you have a chance.

You can shorten the game taking the air out of the ball, run sets or plays, have a certain style that teams have trouble with. play a zone. use the 3 point shot or free throw line as a neutralizer.

I use to love the underdog story of a small school upsetting a team in the sectional. Having one #1 team in the state that you knew was the best and everyone was trying to knock off. Big gyms like Anderson's Wigwam and New Castle's Fieldhouse jammed packed with school spirit for the sectional or regional.

It's not the same anymore, and probably never will be.

Sure, there are the teams that come along every once in a while that can compete across all lines.

Tri Central in '05 comes to mind.

The problem with 1A schools competing against 4A schools, isn't the talent. It's the talent size. Good 1A teams have a few guys that could not only play with good 4A teams, but probably start or play big roles.

What seperates them are when you get outside of those 3 MAYBE 4 guys.

You're right. I have zero experience playing in anything other than a multiclass system. If it went back to one, I'd be just fine with it.

I just think it's funny reading quotes, like in the orginal post, from big school coaches talking about how it's no longer the same.

The only thing different for 4A schools, is that they don't have to wade through the small schools. New Castle not being filled, because of lack of school spirit, is a dumb argument. They are a 4A team. You're telling me, that because Monroe Central, and their high school of 374 kids, not playing a sectional game against NC hurts their school spirit?

Please.

Slick Pinkham
03-29-2010, 01:12 PM
If you went to a small school the realistic goals were shifted in one-class ball from those of the big boys, but they were still important.

For example, if you played in a sectional with 2 or 3 big schools, each year the odds were long against you winning it. But when you did, people talked about it for GENERATIONS. Even if you just won a GAME, it was a big deal. Now you compete against other little guys and win more games, but everyone cares less.

Having a chance to win it all was one neat aspect of the old one-class tournament, but even more was just having a chance at a smaller-scale victory; a sectional title, or even just winning a game vs. the big boys. just my 2 cents. People got all wrapped up in pitying the poor schools when they didn't need or want the pity and were happy enough for the most part with more limited goals.

Since86
03-29-2010, 01:57 PM
I guess it gets lost, because we scheduled big schools for our out of conference games. We started doing it when I was there, and then later on, they went full out.

Here is my school's schedule.
http://indianahsbasketball.homestead.com/files/boyslogs218.htm

We played 11 OOC. Out of those 11, three of them were also 1A. Two are sectional opponents, one of which is also a county rival.

Out of the other 8, four were 4A, one was 3A, and three were 2A. They only lost to two 1A teams this year. Blue River late in the season, and Bowman Academy in semi-state, who won state going away......

I also know they've been in talks for the past couple of years of also adding on Muncie South, and Connersville at one point was in the discussion. I don't know if they would, or were, going to replace another large school, but the better smaller schools have been adding 4A and 3A teams to their schedule for a long time to help gear up for tournament play.

Bball
03-29-2010, 03:16 PM
The idea is not supposed to be all about winning a title and expanding that joy to as many people as possible... It's supposed to be about the process of being and playing your best along the way.

Since86
03-29-2010, 03:23 PM
The idea is not supposed to be all about winning a title and expanding that joy to as many people as possible... It's supposed to be about the process of being and playing your best along the way.

And that's gets lost because of who you play? 99% of schools still don't win a state championship. They can still get that lesson of being and playing your best, without all the negativity surrounded by it.

pwee31
03-29-2010, 05:57 PM
The only thing different for 4A schools, is that they don't have to wade through the small schools. New Castle not being filled, because of lack of school spirit, is a dumb argument. They are a 4A team. You're telling me, that because Monroe Central, and their high school of 374 kids, not playing a sectional game against NC hurts their school spirit?

Please.

I never said anywhere that it's not filled because lack of school spirit, I said I missed gyms like that being jammed packed with school spirit. I remember years when the gyms were practically sold out. Anderson's wigwam was packed even in the XX and YY sections. Filled with students from Anderson, Highland, Madison Heights, Alexandria. It was great times.

May not want to call an argument dumb, when it wasn't an argument, simply an opinion of on something I missed

Since86
03-30-2010, 12:23 PM
I never said anywhere that it's not filled because lack of school spirit, I said I missed gyms like that being jammed packed with school spirit. I remember years when the gyms were practically sold out. Anderson's wigwam was packed even in the XX and YY sections. Filled with students from Anderson, Highland, Madison Heights, Alexandria. It was great times.

May not want to call an argument dumb, when it wasn't an argument, simply an opinion of on something I missed

I'm not saying you were dumb for saying it's sad. You're merely making an observation. I'm saying the excuses offered up for why it's empty is silly.

I'm saying Coach Mitchell in the opening post is dumb for saying class basketball ruined his experience.

He's in a 4A class. He coaches against the biggest, best schools in the state. Him trying to say that class basketball ruined it for a 4A school is just plain silly. Why did it ruin it? Because he doesn't get to beat up on Indy Ritter anymore?

It is a shame that New Castle sits empty. We went to Huntington North for semistate, and it was wall to wall people. They actually double sold tickets. Warsaw fans were lined up to take our seats after the first game. If we had decided to stay and watch the second game, they wouldn't of had enough seats for everyone. The gym held 5,000.

I don't know why they couldn't have changed it to a venue that held more. Too many seats is a lot better option than not enough.

4A schools not getting fans to their games isn't a product of class basketball. My theory is people just don't care as much anymore as what they used to about HS sports. I believe, even if there was still single class, we would be in the same boat as far as attendence, the discussion on why it's happening would just be changed.

Bball
03-30-2010, 01:17 PM
Since86,
I have to disagree with you. While we might still be talking a decline in attendance without class basketball the sudden drop off immediately following the start of class basketball speaks volume. Maybe interest was declining, or would've declined somewhat, but class basketball pushed it right on over the edge. In a hurry.

For 4A schools the championship has been cheapened because they didn't take on all comers. They can (of course) only play the teams in their bracket but the general public is always fascinated by the underdog, the little guy with grit, etc.. It makes the story compelling. And as I said in another post, it's never been ALL about winning everything, it's been about taking on the challenge (no matter how big or small).

Meanwhile the small schools aren't playing all comers either. And if we can believe the argument that they stood little chance of winning a championship before because they couldn't compete, well then we have to accept they've all been advertised as 'second tier'. Not exactly a selling point to casual fans.

I'm sure most people are just like me, in the old system we would be fascinated by teams 3-4 hours away that caught our attention because of winning in the tournament... but now those teams' wins mean nothing to anyone but their own community (and it's even cheapened there except for friends and family).

That's what it's really come to- A tournament that is mainly interesting only to the individual schools participating and friends and family of the team. When your school loses, you're done with the tournament and turning your attention elsewhere. No team is going to grab the imagination of the state any longer.

Since86
03-30-2010, 02:00 PM
When the system props up a "small school" taking on all comers, like they did in 1997 with Delta, then the system is a joke. Well not the system, but the machine that is propping up the system.

Delta is a large 3A, yet I remember watching all the news the night before the game and you would have thought it was a school with 400 total kids. (My uncle is good friends with Rob Robbins Sr., and Delta was being led by Rob Jr., so we went to Anderson for the regional, and then Hinkle for Semi-State, and was at the RCA Dome for the State Finals)

It's still a completely silly argument to say a 4A championship is cheapened because they didn't get to play against smaller schools. Really? You think whoever wins the NCAA tournament is going to say "Well damn, I really wish we got to play Cal Poly Pomona. Without playing them, we really can't say 'we're the best.'"?

No one cared about the Tournament of Champions, or whatever they wanted to call it. That was the BEST 1A team in the state going against the best from the other classes, and no one cared. If what you're saying is true, then people should have been excited to see the best 1A team play the biggest and best. No one cared. At all.

Look, I'm not saying that class is the best scenario. I'm saying you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. A 4A team whining because they don't get to play Covington, in the first round of sectionals is pathetic. They should be ashamed.


Quiz time. Which school holds the record for most regional championships?

Layfayette Jeff. (38)

How many have they won since class basketball?

ZERO!

Muncie Central is third on the list, with 34. They've won a whopping two since class.
Kokomo is fourth on the list, with 33. How many since class? Zero!
Anderson is fifth, with 32. Zero since class......

Marion is second, if you're wondering, with 36. They actually break the cycle with 4 regionals since class.

Big schools are struggling because they aren't winning. Numbers decline because the sheer less number of people in the districts of teams that are going to state.

My school made it to semi-state. If we would have gotten to state how many do you think would have been making the trip? Our school is made up of two towns, with a total of about 3000 people. I bet we would have probably have brought 1500 or so, maybe a little less, but that's nothing compared to if Muncie Central would be there, or hell, even Delta.

There's just not the pure numbers to work with.

That's what I've been saying for the past few years on here, beacuse every year this discussion takes place. Go to a 1A sectional finals game. The gym will be packed. Or atleast I know it is where we play. Our regional site in Frankfort was packed full. Our semi-state was completely full, and over sold.

Bball
03-30-2010, 09:42 PM
No one cared about the Tournament of Champions, or whatever they wanted to call it. That was the BEST 1A team in the state going against the best from the other classes, and no one cared. If what you're saying is true, then people should have been excited to see the best 1A team play the biggest and best. No one cared. At all.



No one cared because you had 4 'champions' playing what was essentially an exhibition game plus 3 of those 4 'champions' were going to end their season with a loss. That whole scenario had to throw water on the emotion and passion of the situation.

Someone was trying to take chicken #$@t and make chicken salad. Of course it didn't work. What worked was the single class winner take all tournament.

HS basketball is not college basketball and no matter how you slice it, a 4A championship isn't the same as a single class championship. It's not just the 4A championship that's been cheapened... All classes are watered down champions that barely catches the imagination of their own communities.

With the single class tournament teams would catch the imagination of the entire state.

I hate taking anything away from the kids who've won in this era of multi-class basketball.... but it is what it is. They've played who they were asked to play... but it's just not the same.

While Milan might've been the last small school to win the tournament they were far from the last small school to make a deep tournament run or have a legitimate shot at a championship.

If more champions are better, why don't we just line up the schools at the end of the year and give them ALL championship trophies?

Since86
03-31-2010, 12:28 PM
Okay, now the argument is going is circles.

People didn't like the tournament of champions, because the "champions" would end their season with a loss?

And single class is better because they wouldn't? That the end of the day, you would have ONE winner, just like there is in a single class system. Every team but ONE would end in a loss, but that's the reason why people don't like the tourney of champs?

Okay, that makes complete sense.........


And yes, if you consider Delta a "small school" then there were "small schools" making deep runs every year. That's my point. Delta isn't "small." Yet during their run, the media acted like they were.



If more champions are better, why don't we just line up the schools at the end of the year and give them ALL championship trophies?


And again, you're arguing against a tournament of champions, because 3 of the 4 would end in a loss? You're sending a mixed message.

You are either in favor of one ultimate champion, or you're not.

Bball
03-31-2010, 01:43 PM
Okay, now the argument is going is circles.

People didn't like the tournament of champions, because the "champions" would end their season with a loss?

And single class is better because they wouldn't? That the end of the day, you would have ONE winner, just like there is in a single class system. Every team but ONE would end in a loss, but that's the reason why people don't like the tourney of champs?

Okay, that makes complete sense.........


And yes, if you consider Delta a "small school" then there were "small schools" making deep runs every year. That's my point. Delta isn't "small." Yet during their run, the media acted like they were.



And again, you're arguing against a tournament of champions, because 3 of the 4 would end in a loss? You're sending a mixed message.

You are either in favor of one ultimate champion, or you're not.

You're totally missing the point...

I don't know what to tell you if you think the Tournament of Champions was a workable compromise or in any way whatsoever indicative of some black mark against the single class tournament and people's interests.

Since86
03-31-2010, 02:47 PM
No, I think it's a waste because it would just be the same as having a single class tourney. The tourney of champs would be dominated by the 4A class, and every once in a while a 3A team would enter as the "champ."

The class system was being dominated by a select handful of programs. That was my point in showing number of regional wins. It dominance was shifted every couple of years, but one program would ultimately be a regional winner multiple years in a row.

The class system isn't my ideal system. It's full of holes that aren't even being looked at to be fixed.

Layfayette Central Catholic is the perfect example. They have the ability to regulate class size. Because of that, they dominated the 1A regionals for quite some time. They had a stranglehold on it for nearly 10 years. 2005 is when it actually broke through. They are still apart of the regional bracket, but the other teams that have built up their programs have finally started getting past them.

Bowman Academy that just won the 1A state title is another example. They started in 2007 with 80 high school kids. All freshman. They now have an enrollment of nearly 500, but because realignment only happens every 4 years, they are still in 1A. My HS played them in semi-state. The size and athleticism was amazing. They treated their layup line in warmups like a damn dunk contest. There were 4 dunks in the first 5mins of the game.

Monroe Central played Muncie Central and Marion this year. Bowman dwarved them in every phsyical area. Gary schools won't play Bowman, because they took all the good players from one class and made a school for them. There is an extreme level of dislike in Gary towards Bowman. They played schools from 4 different states, if my memory serves correct. Them being in 1A makes a complete mockery of the system.

Part of the reason why Indiana basketball has lost its luster is partly from class basketball, there is no denying it. BUT my point throughout this discussion is that it was only a matter of time before it happened anyways. Those who sit back and complain about the system act like if it didn't happen everything would be A-Okay. That's not the case.

Schools are cutting athletic budgets, they're consolidating, people are just losing interest at the high school level. Hell, they're losing interest at the college level.

Class basketball didn't destroy Indiana basketball. Did it speed up the process? Most certainly, but it's one of multiple factors.

Bball
03-31-2010, 03:28 PM
So you're telling me what we have now is better?

Since86
03-31-2010, 03:31 PM
Did I say that?

It's something different. The old system was broken and so too is this one.

Bball
03-31-2010, 04:06 PM
Did I say that?

It's something different. The old system was broken and so too is this one.

That's what I'm trying to figure out. Is you point this current system is better than the old one?

IMHO if anything was broken with the old system it only needed tweaked, not overhauled. The new system destroyed an Indiana tradition that was not only widely popular but profitable as well. The exact kind of thing where you want to tread carefully before making any changes, let alone trashing it entirely.

Since86
03-31-2010, 04:24 PM
I don't think it could be tweaked. It was such a simple design that any changes to it would have been massive, in terms of what is was.

I think a two class system would work better. I don't think the difference between really good 1A teams and really good 2A teams is all the much. Winchester made two state finals runs, and Monroe Central played them tough in both games each season. Those MC teams won their sectional, but didn't get out of regionals.

The competition level really gets big between really good 4A teams, and everyone else.

A two tier system would have been my ideal.

Charter, private, and college academy schools are a totally different animal though.

EDIT: To really answer your question though. I like them and dislike them about equally. I think the single class system needed to be changed, but I think they went to far in the change.

Went from one extreme to the other.

Hicks
03-31-2010, 04:26 PM
One thing I hear a lot around here is that getting to/winning sections/regionals used to mean a lot, and now it hardly does at all. Whether that's right/wrong, that's what I hear when HS bball comes up when I'm talking with folks older than myself.

Since86
03-31-2010, 04:40 PM
One thing I hear a lot around here is that getting to/winning sections/regionals used to mean a lot, and now it hardly does at all. Whether that's right/wrong, that's what I hear when HS bball comes up when I'm talking with folks older than myself.

My guess is because there are so many of them now.

There used to be 16 sectional winners, 8 regional winners, 2 semi state winners and then the state champ.

Now there are well over 50 sectionals. I don't know the exact number, but I know it's well over 50, because we play in sectional #55.

EDIT: There are 64 total.

When I was playing, we won two sectionals. The championship game wasn't the sat. night game either year. Due to travel distances and such, sectionals only have about 5-6 teams in them, all in same area. You usually play each opponent, at least once in the season before sectionals. Some times, like in Randolph Co. due to County tournaments, we actually ended up playing Union City three times each season.

I would say that has a lot to do with it.

Now you have 16 sectional winners in each class. Which means instead of being one of 16 left, you're one of 64 left.

Bball
04-01-2010, 01:21 PM
One thing I hear a lot around here is that getting to/winning sections/regionals used to mean a lot, and now it hardly does at all. Whether that's right/wrong, that's what I hear when HS bball comes up when I'm talking with folks older than myself.

Exactly. It wasn't ALL about winning the championship... it was all the steps along the way. Winning the sectional was bragging rights for the community.