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View Full Version : Future of the Team - Come Out and Say It



BillS
02-18-2010, 11:20 AM
This has been talked about and people have mooted their points of view, so I think it is time to put your clicky where your mouth is.

How do you REALLY feel about the team moving?

I'm making this anonymous on purpose, since I want people to give their real thoughts. Feel free to comment if you want to be public.

Speed
02-18-2010, 11:33 AM
Tragic.

graphic-er
02-18-2010, 11:42 AM
i don't want to see it happen, but its a possibility. 50Million off the books in 2011. That would give the Pacers the lowest Payroll in the league most likely, and that is attactive to potential buyers of the team. Buyers who would move them to Las Vegas.

duke dynamite
02-18-2010, 11:43 AM
Let's have a sing-along!


...And so you and I,
we'll watch our years go by.
We'll watch our sweet dreams fly
far away, but maybe someday,

I don't know when,
but we will dream again.
And we'll be happy then,
'till our time just drifts away...

DaveP63
02-18-2010, 11:43 AM
It would **** me off to the point where I would consider mining 465 and 70. Especially since the Simon group is reportedly buying a competing mall company for around a billion dollars...

Brad8888
02-18-2010, 11:47 AM
It would **** me off to the point where I would consider mining 465 and 70. Especially since the Simon group is reportedly buying a competing mall company for around a billion dollars...

$10 billion, and that is only the opening offer which typically is lower than the final price.

SycamoreKen
02-18-2010, 11:47 AM
Will they really sell the team and move them? I would think the Hornets would be ripe to move again before the Pacers do. I say that because right now the Hornets could leave tomorrow and no one in NO would care. That is a Saints town and always will be.

It would be a sad day if the Pacers do move because of the history of the team. I think the next collective b. deal will be set before they move though.

ChicagoJ
02-18-2010, 12:26 PM
Let's have a sing-along!


...And so you and I,
we'll watch our years go by.
We'll watch our sweet dreams fly
far away, but maybe someday,

I don't know when,
but we will dream again.
And we'll be happy then,
'till our time just drifts away...

Awesome Harry Chapin reference.

Trader Joe
02-18-2010, 12:29 PM
'Cause the times they are a-changing...

duke dynamite
02-18-2010, 12:30 PM
Awesome Harry Chapin reference.
It's been one of my favorite songs since I was a little guy. My dad would always play Harry and Tom Chapin for me.

chrisjacobs7
02-18-2010, 12:40 PM
I would be really really disappointed if they left... The NBA would never be the same again, I'd probably stop caring at all about the league.

However, I don't think you can blame the fans if they leave. Just because we don't want the team to move doesn't mean we should spend our hard earned $ to watch a horrible team. It is management's job to put a respectable team on the floor, and if they fail to do that the fans shouldn't have to support it. Hopefully TPTB can right the ship next year either by trading the expirings or signing good fa's with the cap space, because once the team starts winning again the fans will come back.

Shade
02-18-2010, 12:43 PM
I would stop watching the NBA altogether.

duke dynamite
02-18-2010, 12:58 PM
However, I don't think you can blame the fans if they leave. Just because we don't want the team to move doesn't mean we should spend our hard earned $ to watch a horrible team.
Yeah but in hindsight spending your hard earned money to watch any iteration of that team that goes out onto that floor helps show that they should stay.

Peck
02-18-2010, 01:02 PM
The Nassi years left a real scar on you didn't they?

Trophy
02-18-2010, 01:09 PM
Don't leave!

vnzla81
02-18-2010, 01:13 PM
the future of the team is dark, this is how the fieldhouse is going to look next year with JOB as the coach and Murphy as the PF/C
:tumbleweed:

Trophy
02-18-2010, 01:17 PM
Those who go to the game need to take some action and not only chant "Josh McRoberts!", but chant something like "Fire O'Brien!".

Show Bird how much no one wants him coaching their team.

BillS
02-18-2010, 01:17 PM
The Nassi years left a real scar on you didn't they?

Add that to The Owner Of The Racers Who Shall Not Be Named and yeah, you're right.

CableKC
02-18-2010, 01:18 PM
I don't live in Indy....so I'd still root for them wherever they went. Admittedly, I'd probably root for them as a secondary team that I keep an eye on from time to time and start rooting for the Thunder or the Blazers.

vnzla81
02-18-2010, 01:29 PM
I don't live in Indy....so I'd still root for them wherever they went. Admittedly, I'd probably root for them as a secondary team that I keep an eye on from time to time and start rooting for the Thunder or the Blazers.

I think Im going to start doing that as soon as today:(

IndyHoosier
02-18-2010, 01:42 PM
I would stop caring about the NBA if the Pacers moved. I do believe we would get some kind of semi pro basketball team here though at some point, possibly NBDL. I hate to think about that though.

I Love P
02-18-2010, 01:42 PM
If the Pacers did move I would like them until we got a new team in Indy.

DGPR
02-18-2010, 01:44 PM
I would stop watching the NBA altogether.

I second this.

Bball
02-18-2010, 02:37 PM
If something doesn't change quickly then we're going to be right back on the fast track to moving.

I don't want to see the Pacers leave Indy BUT if what we're going to get is more of this bad brand of basketball, then it's nothing I want to protect or see either.

It's going to be hard to argue for the team staying when the fieldhouse is a ghost town for games.... and it's going to be hard arguing for people to follow the team when they are playing bad basketball for a bad basketball coach, have no apparent vision for the future, and are circling the wagons around the coach and standing pat with the status quo.

Trophy
02-18-2010, 02:47 PM
Isn't Bird going to discuss our future plans in April?

Putnam
02-18-2010, 02:58 PM
If something doesn't change quickly then we're going to be right back on the fast track to moving.


What do you mean by "quickly"?


In the next hour?


Because if nothing happens in the next hour, then nothing much can happen until another 18 months goes by. Can it?


.

Will Galen
02-18-2010, 03:24 PM
Mel Simon just died. That would have been a great time for Herb to sell the team. Instead he bought Mel's share of the team.

So, Herb knows the teams plan and financial situation. He knows they will lose money for the next two years yet buys them anyway.

Does that sound like someone thinking about moving the Pacers?

Pacers aren't moving.

duke dynamite
02-18-2010, 03:26 PM
Mel Simon just died. That would have been a great time for Herb to sell the team. Instead he bought Mel's share of the team.

So, Herb knows the teams plan and financial situation. He knows they will lose money for the next two years yet buys them anyway.

Does that sound like someone thinking about moving the Pacers?

Pacers aren't moving.
You've gotta buy the other share(s) of the team so you can sell it entirely.

BillS
02-18-2010, 03:42 PM
Mel Simon just died. That would have been a great time for Herb to sell the team. Instead he bought Mel's share of the team.

So, Herb knows the teams plan and financial situation. He knows they will lose money for the next two years yet buys them anyway.

Does that sound like someone thinking about moving the Pacers?

Pacers aren't moving.


You've gotta buy the other share(s) of the team so you can sell it entirely.

It also makes it easier to settle the estate.

DaveP63
02-18-2010, 03:51 PM
I would stop watching the NBA altogether.

Probably...

Bball
02-18-2010, 05:28 PM
What do you mean by "quickly"?


In the next hour?


Because if nothing happens in the next hour, then nothing much can happen until another 18 months goes by. Can it?


.

Things that could happen sooner rather than later:
Press Conference that allays fears and lays out a vision
Coach Firing
New Coach (interim)
New Style of Basketball and Emphasis on Fundamentals
New Coach (long term hire)
Better PR effort
Draft Pick
Summer Changes in Roster
Next Season Trade Deadline Maneuvers

---
Things that hurt more than help:
No Roster Changes
Same Coach
Same Bad Basketball Style and LACK of Emphasis on Fundamentals
Poor Public Relations (defending coach and his bad basketball and rotations)

BillS
02-18-2010, 05:34 PM
Coach Firing
New Coach (interim)


Question - how many additional tickets would we have to sell, with a team that will probably still be losing even under an interim coach, to make up for having to continue to pay JOB through the rest of this season (never mind the extension)?

Why would you do that when it won't help either on the bottom line or on the floor?

vapacersfan
02-18-2010, 05:40 PM
Awesome Harry Chapin reference.

And the cats and the cradle and the silver spoon.

The only song of his I know, but I love it :)

Bball
02-18-2010, 05:43 PM
Question - how many additional tickets would we have to sell, with a team that will probably still be losing even under an interim coach, to make up for having to continue to pay JOB through the rest of this season (never mind the extension)?

Why would you do that when it won't help either on the bottom line or on the floor?

I didn't sign him to the ill-advised extension in the first place. All I can do is talk about what will and won't energize the fanbase. And every day fans and former fans sit unenergized and glum is another group of fans falling into the "I don't care any longer' category.

It's now long-term damage that is being done in the short-term.

The fans won't immediately come back no matter what... but you now have some pretty hardcore fans falling into the apathetic category. Those are the core losses that will hurt for quite some time.

Last night I didn't even bother to turn the game on. I knew it was on... I just didn't care enough to even turn it on. I've seen enough of O'Brien and this bad brand of basketball. I'm not going to pay to see it live and I'm not going to go out of my way to watch it on TV. No DVRing games... and now I couldn't even be bothered to change the channel on the TV last night because I no longer care about this season and won't without some changes. I suspect I'm not alone.

PacersHomer
02-18-2010, 06:14 PM
I would stop reading or caring about the NBA entirely.

Will Galen
02-18-2010, 06:14 PM
Press Conference that allays fears and lays out a vision


Lay out a vision? Here you go with that again!
The Pacers have announced what their vision/plan is. What it is, you just don't agree with it.

My question is, what makes you think you would like a new management team and their vision any more than the currant one?

I think you wouldn't. You'll like most fans, you aren't going to buy anything but a winner. Now I see nothing wrong with that, but dang people, at least let Bird and Morway's plan play out. To many of you want a winner overnight and things just don't work that way. (unless you get lucky)

Changing things now would just cost Herb money and wouldn't speed anything up at all.

Some things I think management can be criticized for. For instant OB's saying one thing and doing another. However, I think Bird and Morway have come up with a plan that makes sense and wanting another vision is just . . . ranting.

If the Pacers changed management today, the new management would say, 'we'll have everything pretty much fixed in a year and a half,' that would make a lot of you happy, but the timeline would still be the same.

Yes, Bird's paying me under the table to be his mouthpiece on here.

ChicagoJ
02-18-2010, 06:24 PM
Is the timeline a year-and-a-half to start fixing the problem or to actually fix the problem?

The way this is going, we need a bunch of new, young players still and they need time to grow up.

It looks like we're going to get them next yeat at this time, at the earliest. Then they need a couple of years to gel and mature.

This is still a multi-year rebuild, regardless of the unrealistic "1.5 year" expectation.

We're still at least three years away from having a decent team IF over the next 18 months they get all the players they want AND none of them are "busts" or injured. And if both of those conditions aren't met, it will be even longer.

This is a mess. It will take a long time to fix it. J'OB won't be the only coach in this process that won't be around when the team is finally a contender. Whoever succeeds him will also be in that category. THAT's why they aren't in any hurry to fire him.

90'sNBARocked
02-18-2010, 06:30 PM
Last night I didn't even bother to turn the game on. I knew it was on... I just didn't care enough to even turn it on. I've seen enough of O'Brien and this bad brand of basketball. I'm not going to pay to see it live and I'm not going to go out of my way to watch it on TV. No DVRing games... and now I couldn't even be bothered to change the channel on the TV last night because I no longer care about this season and won't without some changes. I suspect I'm not alone.


My man that is EXACTLY how I felt.

Since im in Phoenix and the 2 hour time difference I used to literally9illegally) jump in the HOV lane so I could get home before halftime


Last night I waited paitently in traffic

90'sNBARocked
02-18-2010, 06:33 PM
Some things I think management can be criticized for. For instant OB's saying one thing and doing another. However, I think Bird and Morway have come up with a plan that makes sense and wanting another vision is just . . . ranting.

[COLOR=DarkGreen][COLOR=Black]If the Pacers changed management today, the new management would say, 'we'll have everything pretty much fixed in a year and a half,' that would make a lot of you happy, but the timeline would still be the same.

[COLOR=DarkGreen]Yes, Bird's paying me under the table to be his

I think you make some valid points with one exception

I can not understand why Obie got a 1 year extension, that part of the "plan" I dont agree with, even if it was meant to keep the players in check

d_c
02-18-2010, 06:33 PM
This is a mess. It will take a long time to fix it. J'OB won't be the only coach in this process that won't be around when the team is finally a contender. Whoever succeeds him will also be in that category. THAT's why they aren't in any hurry to fire him.

Yep, exactly. It's a throwaway roster (Murphy, Dunleavy, Foster, Ford + scrubs) so you don't care about having a throwaway coach.

At least it's not likely that the ownership is going to spend money on two coaches simulatneously when they know 75% of the roster is going to get overturned anyways.

count55
02-18-2010, 06:43 PM
Yep, exactly. It's a throwaway roster (Murphy, Dunleavy, Foster, Ford + scrubs) so you don't care about having a throwaway coach.

At least it's not likely that the ownership is going to spend money on two coaches simulatneously when they know 75% of the roster is going to get overturned anyways.

Fans in Boston would have absolutely guaranteed that Rivers would have been gone, before they turned it around.

Fans in Atlanta would have been fairly certain that Woodson was going to be on the trash heap by the time they starting winning games and playoff series.

They were both idiots, when they had no talent.

Is O'Brien gone after next season? Probably, but it's far from a lock.

Will Galen
02-18-2010, 07:05 PM
Is the timeline a year-and-a-half to start fixing the problem or to actually fix the problem?

I would say that timeline gets us back on a competitive scale.

BillS
02-18-2010, 07:07 PM
I didn't sign him to the ill-advised extension in the first place. All I can do is talk about what will and won't energize the fanbase. And every day fans and former fans sit unenergized and glum is another group of fans falling into the "I don't care any longer' category.

I meant that even without the extension you still end up double-paying for the rest of this season. Wouldn't happen for the reasons I stated - the increase in butts in the seats in no way makes up for paying two coaches for the rest of the season.


Last night I didn't even bother to turn the game on. I knew it was on... I just didn't care enough to even turn it on. I've seen enough of O'Brien and this bad brand of basketball. I'm not going to pay to see it live and I'm not going to go out of my way to watch it on TV. No DVRing games... and now I couldn't even be bothered to change the channel on the TV last night because I no longer care about this season and won't without some changes. I suspect I'm not alone.

And by doing that you missed what was actually a better game than they've played recently. They kept the ball going inside (as we wanted), they kept Roy in the game a lot (as we wanted), they actually looked OK with TJ and Earl in at the same time as long as Earl is handling the ball.

This makes me think that you are more concerned with winning than with how they play, which refutes this whole idea of "they can lose and people will still go as long as they play the right way".

90'sNBARocked
02-18-2010, 07:11 PM
Fans in Boston would have absolutely guaranteed that Rivers would have been gone, before they turned it around.

Fans in Atlanta would have been fairly certain that Woodson was going to be on the trash heap by the time they starting winning games and playoff series.

They were both idiots, when they had no talent.

Is O'Brien gone after next season? Probably, but it's far from a lock.

Hawks had talent bro,

Celtics didnt

I think Doc had a decent rep, but I agree they had been wanting Woodson gone for years

d_c
02-18-2010, 07:14 PM
Fans in Boston would have absolutely guaranteed that Rivers would have been gone, before they turned it around.

Fans in Atlanta would have been fairly certain that Woodson was going to be on the trash heap by the time they starting winning games and playoff series.

They were both idiots, when they had no talent.

Is O'Brien gone after next season? Probably, but it's far from a lock.

Really? I thought they just fixed all their problems by installing the triangle offense.

SycamoreKen
02-18-2010, 07:16 PM
I never realized how much Indy had given up on this team until watching the game last night. Even my wife was surprised at all the empty seats with an upper level visiting team in town. We both said that we would have gone if we were there.

As for drawing fans, I think all teams outside of the Lakers and Cleveland are probably having to work to fill the seats. I know the Spurs organization is always promoting things and there are always seats avalable if you want them and we are a one team town. That aside, i don't get the doom and gloom with some of you towards this team.

Compared to last season, I see much more promise and hope with the young guys on the team. Danny and Hibbart are nice building blocks with good futures. Superstars? Probably not, but above average starters none the less. Rush and a couple others may keep growing, but if not, we at least have a start. I'm excited to see what new young talent will be added this summer. We are going to have to build through the draft and trades, so I hope TPTB get those right. I'm not sure what changes they can make any faster than the system will let them. I too am not impressed with JO's style, but that doesn't mater if you don't have talent.

Management got rid of all the "trouble makers," so now the fans need to show a little thanks for the image clean up and be patient with the rebuilding. An interesting thing on the image side, the local radio guys were talking yesteday about how "white" the Pacers are. I'm not trying to instigate a race battle, but in some eyse we have gone from a team of "thugs" to the team from Hoosiers. Those guys are goof balls, but an interesting swing none the less.

As I stated before, the next barganing agreement is going to be important for all the teams, but the small market ones as well. I don't think anything will happen until after that is taken care of. Let me ask one question as I wrap this up. What teams do you see as being in worse positions than our team is? To be honest, i would really be on pins and needles if I was a Knicks fan right now. What happens if the "dump salary for the summer of 2010" doesn't work and they get no superstar free agent to sign with them? They will get bodies to fill uniforms, but will the past 2 years have been worth it? I see our team at least a little more developed than where they will be.

Trophy
02-18-2010, 07:25 PM
I never realized how much Indy had given up on this team until watching the game last night. Even my wife was surprised at all the empty seats with an upper level visiting team in town. We both said that we would have gone if we were there.

You're not alone. If I was living in Indy, I'd certainly take advantage of their offerings.

I know I'm not living in the state, but watching every game makes me feel like I'm a Hoosier. I'm hoping to become one when I'm done with school here in 2 years or so. Good or bad, I'll be a STH just to show support for the franchise.

What kills me is that they offer too many free things or things that are half priced just to get people buying tickets. That's also how money is lost. Purchasing things like food without making the fans pay.

I really hope we turn everything around and financial problems are no longer there and we improve our team and enter a new era in Pacers basketball bringing back the fans and the wins.

ChicagoJ
02-18-2010, 07:28 PM
Fans in Boston would have absolutely guaranteed that Rivers would have been gone, before they turned it around.

Fans in Atlanta would have been fairly certain that Woodson was going to be on the trash heap by the time they starting winning games and playoff series.

They were both idiots, when they had no talent.

Is O'Brien gone after next season? Probably, but it's far from a lock.

Rivers and Woodson (underrated, IMO) are both proving that the quality of the roster matters a helluva lot more than the coach. The coach does matter... some.

Neither of them were actually idiots just because of their team's lack of talent. You know who else will look good if he ever gets to work with a "bad" roster (which would be a major upgrade for him)? Wittman.

All three of them are better than, say, Avery Johnson.

HC
02-18-2010, 07:53 PM
As several others expressed the Pacers departure from Indiana would leave me without a shred of interest for the Association.

NapTonius Monk
02-18-2010, 08:29 PM
I will preface this by stating I am a lifelong fan of the NBA. I love the Pacers dearly, but there have been a couple of times (I'm ashamed to say) where I've forgotten they were even playing until I signed on and saw the game thread up on PD. That said, I feel they will be back eventually, as the NBA tends to be cyclical. As BillS has pointed to a couple of times, there is a conflicted nature within fans. We hate losing, though we know that losing brings a higher draft pick, thus greater talent (theoretically). We know that 2011 is pivotal, yet 2010 is still painful. One can only wonder if Larry can pilot this franchise through the turbulence with the runway in sight. Who knows? But this offseason into next year will define him and the team. I do not expect lotto to finals overnight. But we will be a regular playoff team again soon IMHO.

idioteque
02-18-2010, 08:34 PM
I would be sad if the Pacers left Indiana, but not absolutely crushed.

My interest in the NBA would probably wane somewhat, but I would root for the Wizards.

Will Galen
02-18-2010, 08:36 PM
I will preface this by stating I am a lifelong fan of the NBA. I love the Pacers dearly, but there have been a couple of times (I'm ashamed to say) where I've forgotten they were even playing until I signed on and saw the game thread up on PD.

Nothing to be ashamed of. A winner gets people excited. Losers don't get as much attention paid to them, even by their hard core fans.

Wu-Gambino
02-18-2010, 09:26 PM
I find it insulting that so many of you are assuming the Simons would sell the team. These are the people that saved the Pacers, revitalized downtown Indianapolis through Circle Centre and Conseco Fieldhouse, built their corporate headquarters in the middle of downtown (when there were rumors of them building at Keystone or Carmel) and have done numerous philanthropic works in Indianapolis (including the beautiful renovation of IMA). They know how much a winning team means to Indianapolis, they understand what Pacer fans have gone through since the brawl and Reggie's retirement, and they know the fans will be back once they put a good product out on the court.

Keep in mind we are in a recession, the Pacers aren't the only team having problems. Even teams that are doing much better and/or in metropolitan areas double the size of Indianapolis (Philadelphia, Atlanta). Most teams don't sell out every game, even when basketball is the hottest ticket in town (Oklahoma City, Houston, San Antonio, Denver, etc.).

Trophy
02-18-2010, 09:26 PM
In the 09-10 season, the Pacers are 26th in the league in attendance average. There's a total of 375,391 and they average 13,903 this season.

In the 08-09 season, the Pacers finished with 581,472 and 28th in the league. Averaged 14,182.

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance

I think it's going to improve as the years go on and I don't think we'll leave Indianapolis nor fold.

We'll look like a whole different team in 10 years. Still in Indy with a large fanbase and an improved team with the core players we have now in addition to future players we draft.

As for now, we need to continue to build up to that point.

duke dynamite
02-18-2010, 09:45 PM
I find it insulting that so many of you are assuming the Simons would sell the team. These are the people that saved the Pacers, revitalized downtown Indianapolis through Circle Centre and Conseco Fieldhouse, built their corporate headquarters in the middle of downtown (when there were rumors of them building at Keystone or Carmel) and have done numerous philanthropic works in Indianapolis (including the beautiful renovation of IMA). They know how much a winning team means to Indianapolis, they understand what Pacer fans have gone through since the brawl and Reggie's retirement, and they know the fans will be back once they put a good product out on the court.

Back then, there were two Simons, and they were much younger.

Now? Not so much...

Peter_sixtyftsixin
02-18-2010, 10:05 PM
I would stop watching the NBA altogether.

More time spent on the NHL. I would start praying for at least an AHL team.

GO!!!!!
02-18-2010, 10:26 PM
Do the Simons have any kids/grandkids/nephews/nieces in the organisation ?

vnzla81
02-18-2010, 10:30 PM
Do the Simons have any kids/grandkids/nephews/nieces in the organisation ?

looks like the guy is JOB, because nobody can fire the guy;)

Bball
02-18-2010, 10:54 PM
This makes me think that you are more concerned with winning than with how they play, which refutes this whole idea of "they can lose and people will still go as long as they play the right way".

I've watched enough games to know any 1 game is not an indication of anything. The entire body of work is what is indicative of what we're doing and that is bad basketball preached by someone that believes in this style of basketball. I have no interest in it.

I agree with all of you that O'Brien is a throw-away coach...And it's time we throw him away! Let a low dough interim coach run the program and give him some guidelines on what is expected of him to mold the franchise. That will at least send the signal that management recognizes we have a coaching problem. That in and of itself will rekindle a little buzz among fans. It might even rekindle some competitive spirit in the players who have given up on O'Brien.

Then use that to help bridge the gap on the rebuild with hopefully some decent summer transactions.

We had a little bump in excitement but we've thrown it all away by extending O'Brien and allowing his bad basketball to continue. The players are fed up with it (IMHO) and the fans are fed up with it. THAT is not a good place for a franchise management team to be defending a coach.

For the love of God let's not waste time trying to get O'Brien a team of players to play 'his way'.

Harddrive7
02-18-2010, 11:28 PM
I would hate to see this portion of the site go away. I don't post much, if any, but I still love to read old RATS posters. The great exile of RATS. Actually I think I had originally started on that horrid ESPN board.

Ahhh, those were the days.

Brad8888
02-19-2010, 10:39 AM
I meant that even without the extension you still end up double-paying for the rest of this season. Wouldn't happen for the reasons I stated - the increase in butts in the seats in no way makes up for paying two coaches for the rest of the season.



And by doing that you missed what was actually a better game than they've played recently. They kept the ball going inside (as we wanted), they kept Roy in the game a lot (as we wanted), they actually looked OK with TJ and Earl in at the same time as long as Earl is handling the ball.

This makes me think that you are more concerned with winning than with how they play, which refutes this whole idea of "they can lose and people will still go as long as they play the right way".

While it is true that people who have stopped watching missed a game with some of the characteristics of good basketball, who knows when that will happen again? It is a trust issue, and O'B is NOT trustworthy with the product he puts on the floor, with nonsensical rotations and a strategy that is still primarily centered on poorly shooting 3's.

I still DVR games, but I must admit that I have several that I have yet to watch, including those played just before the ASB. I have been on vacation during this period and it is not all that likely that I will take the time to go back and watch them due to my loathing for what O'B puts on the floor. The same thing happened last year, and by the time the year ended I had about 15 games remaining on my DVR that I finally just deleted altogether in May. I have found myself fooled more than once this year by what was supposedly better play, got interested enough to go ahead and watch a few games that either were described here as better played games or that had boxscores that suggested that play was better. I have been disappointed more often than I have been happy after having done so.

BillS
02-19-2010, 10:58 AM
I find it insulting that so many of you are assuming the Simons would sell the team. These are the people that saved the Pacers, revitalized downtown Indianapolis through Circle Centre and Conseco Fieldhouse, built their corporate headquarters in the middle of downtown (when there were rumors of them building at Keystone or Carmel) and have done numerous philanthropic works in Indianapolis (including the beautiful renovation of IMA). They know how much a winning team means to Indianapolis, they understand what Pacer fans have gone through since the brawl and Reggie's retirement, and they know the fans will be back once they put a good product out on the court.


Back then, there were two Simons, and they were much younger.

Now? Not so much...

As Duke says, the original Simons are now just Herb. Their kids have made it pretty clear they are not interested in the Pacers as such.

There's only so much someone can stand losing $20+ million per year no matter how charitable one feels, especially when simply exercising a clause in an existing contract (the renegotiation of operation expenses for the Fieldhouse) causes the city to forget everything good that was ever done and start screaming for the heads of those greedy b*****ds who never did anything but take money from the good citizens of the city and state.

Justin Tyme
02-19-2010, 11:21 AM
The great exile of RATS.


I refer to it as the GREAT SCHISM.


I went over to lurk at the Star the other day for the 1st time in eons. I had trouble finding the site, and then after the trouble to find it some poster was going ballistic over Tylers ear infection when he knew nothing about ear infections. I'm truly surprised it still exists.

Putnam
02-19-2010, 11:26 AM
There's only so much someone can stand losing $20+ million per year no matter how charitable one feels, especially when simply exercising a clause in an existing contract (the renegotiation of operation expenses for the Fieldhouse) causes the city to forget everything good that was ever done and start screaming for the heads of those greedy b*****ds who never did anything but take money from the good citizens of the city and state.


This is right.

Herb Simon is doubtless aware of the sour public attitude against the team he has sustained for all these years. But the city administration's refusal to negotiate in good faith probably stings worse.

(I think "refusal to negotiate in good faith" is justified by the fact that the renegotiation was supposed to be done in 2009 and hasn't been settled yet.)
.

BillS
02-19-2010, 12:48 PM
I refer to it as the GREAT SCHISM.


I went over to lurk at the Star the other day for the 1st time in eons. I had trouble finding the site, and then after the trouble to find it some poster was going ballistic over Tylers ear infection when he knew nothing about ear infections. I'm truly surprised it still exists.

After all, an inner ear infection is just a headache :zip:

duke dynamite
02-19-2010, 01:04 PM
As Duke says, the original Simons are now just Herb. Their kids have made it pretty clear they are not interested in the Pacers as such.

There's only so much someone can stand losing $20+ million per year no matter how charitable one feels, especially when simply exercising a clause in an existing contract (the renegotiation of operation expenses for the Fieldhouse) causes the city to forget everything good that was ever done and start screaming for the heads of those greedy b*****ds who never did anything but take money from the good citizens of the city and state.
I mean c'mon. It's like playing the market. You have 3 or 4 investments. A few of them are raking money in for you, one other is bleeding money from you. What do you do? You sell it. Cut your losses and run. Run away. Then you invest in something else.

The Pacers could just happen to be that bad investment. It was good at the time, and gave you some pretty good returns in the past, but it's not the goldmine it once was. (If at all...)

Just because you have a lot of money stashed in one place, and somewhere else you're losing money doesn't mean that you should keep losing money.

Businessmen don't usually hold on to things for sentimental value. It's all about the scrill.

Hicks
02-19-2010, 01:15 PM
Businessmen don't usually hold on to things for sentimental value. It's all about the scrill.

I would think, unless your name is Donald Sterling, owning an NBA franchise is the exception to this rule.

Not to say that they WANT to lose money off of it or they LIKE it, but nonetheless, it's not uncommon to take a hit financially.

Peck
02-19-2010, 02:25 PM
As Duke says, the original Simons are now just Herb. Their kids have made it pretty clear they are not interested in the Pacers as such.

There's only so much someone can stand losing $20+ million per year no matter how charitable one feels, especially when simply exercising a clause in an existing contract (the renegotiation of operation expenses for the Fieldhouse) causes the city to forget everything good that was ever done and start screaming for the heads of those greedy b*****ds who never did anything but take money from the good citizens of the city and state.

You make it sound like everything was fine and dandy attendance wise and P.R. wise when the poor innocent Pacers exercised their option and that the city was/is some evil maniacal entity.

Let's not forget why attendance began to plummet in the first place. Let's not forget that they did this at a time when the state and the nation was in the middle of a horrid economy and going back to why attendance was so bad let's not forget why the general public had a disdain for the franchise at the time.

Also the only Simon child that has made any public statement regarding not wishing to be involved with the franchise is David who was Mel's son. That is now no longer an issue as Herb has purchased his part of the franchise.

Herb has made public statements over the past year, including after the passing of Mel, that he has no intentions of moving the franchise.

I've heard Jim Morrison on the radio make the statement that moving is not an option and has never been discussed with or threatened to the city.

Now you can choose to not believe him, as it probably has been discussed amongst them, but you know politics and if this had been threatened to the city someone somewhere would have leaked it to the press.

As to losing 20 million a year. Well according to them this has been going on for a long time, including the late 90's when the team was actually successful.

So I hate to tell you but getting a few more people to attend is probably not going to make that big of a deal to the overall loss situation as far as money goes.

In this case I think you are doing a few things.

1. Your overestimating the economy around the country. Indiana actually is no worse than most and in fact doing better than some states. What city right now has the building in place or quickly capable of getting it. You can't say Seattle as if you will recall the citizens are the ones who refused to help finance a new arena. I don't think the Simons would want to build a new arena when they are claiming to lose money on one that the city helped build. Las Vegas is not possible because of the league's gambling policy towards franchises. What other cities are clamoring for an NBA franchise that has the tools and the money to get one? I'm not saying there is not one out there but I think it would be harder to do this than you are making it out to be.

2. You are underestimating Herb's commitment to Indianapolis. Yes, he hates to lose money just like anyone. But I believe that Herb has always been the one who loved the franchise, Mel did to but this was always Herb's baby. I know you know about the focus groups of ticket holders that they got together to find out the feeling on the franchise and ways to improve in the community. You also know that Herb himself was in the one way mirror room and at the end came out to talk with everybody. That doesn't sound like a person who isn't interested in the final product to me. He could have just as easily read a report of the groups thoughts a day or two later, but he was there for the entire thing.

3. You might be living a little in the past here. I certainly understand your thinking as I remember the marathon to save the franchise as well. I also remember the Nassi years. But I think the franchise understands why things are the way that they are and are trying to fix them. Now some don't like the way they are going about it, but at the very least we are trying to fix it. Let's be honest here, Simon could have easily said take a salary dump to save the money. In other words he could have very easily said trade Murphy and a future # 1 pick to get Big Z here. But he didn't. That tells me that he is still interested in the final product and not just the bottom dollar.

Look I'm not trying to make you out to be some loon here. I get what you are saying and I am not saying you are totally wrong, I just think maybe you are using past experience to cloud present issues. Which in and of itself is not bad, but I think maybe you need a little more faith in Herb Simon.

Putnam
02-19-2010, 02:29 PM
Peck your post is very good.

But this isn't true:


I've heard Jim Morrison on the radio make the statement that moving is not an optionWhat Morrison said was this:


For if we don't find
The next whisky bar
I tell you we must die
I tell you we must die
I tell you, I tell you
I tell you we must die
And...


Yeah, woo
Ride
Ride on
Weooooo!
Wawa, eooo!
Oooo, owa, owaaa!
Wa, waaaaea!
Ooo, wa, wa, wa, wa, waa!
.


But now to try an be pertinent. This is a good point.


getting a few more people to attend is probably not going to make that big of a deal to the overall loss situation as far as money goes.


What share of revenues comes from tickets?

I had these figures a couple of seasons ago and I remember that ticket sales is rather small. An NBA frachise needs to look at TV revenue, league revenus sharing, and concessions just as much as ticket sales.

Peck
02-19-2010, 02:32 PM
Hey Morrison was a visionary and probably did talk about this, I'm sure his Indian guide told him about it. Love me two times is nothing more than future plea to keep the franchise in the city.;)

duke dynamite
02-19-2010, 02:51 PM
I would think, unless your name is Donald Sterling, owning an NBA franchise is the exception to this rule.

Not to say that they WANT to lose money off of it or they LIKE it, but nonetheless, it's not uncommon to take a hit financially.
I'll give him that he is in the entertainment capital of the world on that one. Other than that, who knows.

duke dynamite
02-19-2010, 02:56 PM
Hey Morrison was a visionary and probably did talk about this, I'm sure his Indian guide told him about it. Love me two times is nothing more than future plea to keep the franchise in the city.;)
Yes, Jim Morrison was a visionary, then he died.

http://boskolives.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/jim-morrison.jpg

Peck, anyone can say one thing with the intentions on doing another. And saying that Herb's commitment to Indianapolis is very strong, doesn't mean he can't invest into something else in the city. The Pacers aren't his first priority. We don't have the luxury of our owner being the biggest fan. (i.e. Mark Cuban)

Trophy
02-19-2010, 03:06 PM
I don't see us leaving Indianapolis anytime soon let's put it that way.

Peck
02-19-2010, 03:09 PM
Yes, Jim Morrison was a visionary, then he died.

http://boskolives.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/jim-morrison.jpg

Peck, anyone can say one thing with the intentions on doing another. And saying that Herb's commitment to Indianapolis is very strong, doesn't mean he can't invest into something else in the city. The Pacers aren't his first priority. We don't have the luxury of our owner being the biggest fan. (i.e. Mark Cuban)

How do you know this? Just because he is not a media whore and not part of generation "look at me" does not mean he is not a big fan.

I'm sure even BillS will agree with me on this. The Simons have been and Herb continues to be one of the best owners in the NBA.

What has he ever done or said that leads you to believe he is not committed to keeping this franchise in the city?

Gamble1
02-19-2010, 03:10 PM
And saying that Herb's commitment to Indianapolis is very strong, doesn't mean he can't invest into something else in the city. The Pacers aren't his first priority. We don't have the luxury of our owner being the biggest fan. (i.e. Mark Cuban)
The only reason I am very confident that the Pacers are here to stay is that I highly doubt any city will build a stadium for the Pacers. At least not in the near future IMO.

Speed
02-19-2010, 03:13 PM
You make it sound like everything was fine and dandy attendance wise and P.R. wise when the poor innocent Pacers exercised their option and that the city was/is some evil maniacal entity.

Let's not forget why attendance began to plummet in the first place. Let's not forget that they did this at a time when the state and the nation was in the middle of a horrid economy and going back to why attendance was so bad let's not forget why the general public had a disdain for the franchise at the time.

Also the only Simon child that has made any public statement regarding not wishing to be involved with the franchise is David who was Mel's son. That is now no longer an issue as Herb has purchased his part of the franchise.

Herb has made public statements over the past year, including after the passing of Mel, that he has no intentions of moving the franchise.

I've heard Jim Morrison on the radio make the statement that moving is not an option and has never been discussed with or threatened to the city.

Now you can choose to not believe him, as it probably has been discussed amongst them, but you know politics and if this had been threatened to the city someone somewhere would have leaked it to the press.

As to losing 20 million a year. Well according to them this has been going on for a long time, including the late 90's when the team was actually successful.

So I hate to tell you but getting a few more people to attend is probably not going to make that big of a deal to the overall loss situation as far as money goes.

In this case I think you are doing a few things.

1. Your overestimating the economy around the country. Indiana actually is no worse than most and in fact doing better than some states. What city right now has the building in place or quickly capable of getting it. You can't say Seattle as if you will recall the citizens are the ones who refused to help finance a new arena. I don't think the Simons would want to build a new arena when they are claiming to lose money on one that the city helped build. Las Vegas is not possible because of the league's gambling policy towards franchises. What other cities are clamoring for an NBA franchise that has the tools and the money to get one? I'm not saying there is not one out there but I think it would be harder to do this than you are making it out to be.

2. You are underestimating Herb's commitment to Indianapolis. Yes, he hates to lose money just like anyone. But I believe that Herb has always been the one who loved the franchise, Mel did to but this was always Herb's baby. I know you know about the focus groups of ticket holders that they got together to find out the feeling on the franchise and ways to improve in the community. You also know that Herb himself was in the one way mirror room and at the end came out to talk with everybody. That doesn't sound like a person who isn't interested in the final product to me. He could have just as easily read a report of the groups thoughts a day or two later, but he was there for the entire thing.

3. You might be living a little in the past here. I certainly understand your thinking as I remember the marathon to save the franchise as well. I also remember the Nassi years. But I think the franchise understands why things are the way that they are and are trying to fix them. Now some don't like the way they are going about it, but at the very least we are trying to fix it. Let's be honest here, Simon could have easily said take a salary dump to save the money. In other words he could have very easily said trade Murphy and a future # 1 pick to get Big Z here. But he didn't. That tells me that he is still interested in the final product and not just the bottom dollar.

Look I'm not trying to make you out to be some loon here. I get what you are saying and I am not saying you are totally wrong, I just think maybe you are using past experience to cloud present issues. Which in and of itself is not bad, but I think maybe you need a little more faith in Herb Simon.

Damn right I quoted the whole thing, nice job. I learned a bunch. I completely missed that Herb bought Mel's interest and that removed his son from the scenario. I completely had not heard about Herb being DIRECTLY involved in the focus groups. I hadn't thought about the fact that other cities would struggle to lure the Pacers to their city under the current economic environment. Very good post Peck. Thanks.

duke dynamite
02-19-2010, 03:23 PM
How do you know this? Just because he is not a media whore and not part of generation "look at me" does not mean he is not a big fan.

I'm sure even BillS will agree with me on this. The Simons have been and Herb continues to be one of the best owners in the NBA.

What has he ever done or said that leads you to believe he is not committed to keeping this franchise in the city?
First, I have no doubt that the Simons have been one of the best owners if not the best.

BUT...

This is basically what is happening:

http://uk2.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/mooooney.jpg


I highly doubt that the franchise is going to continue to put up with it. The city is going to continue to pull them through the ringer and they will have no other option than to sell and/or leave.

ChicagoJ
02-19-2010, 03:23 PM
The future's uncertain, and the end is always near.

Jim Morris, Jim Morrison...

What's the difference anway?

Mourning
02-19-2010, 03:29 PM
Even though I don't even live in the States I would be upset for sure. The Pacers and Indiana belong to each other IMHO. The heartland of basketball without an NBA team is almost unthinkable and would be a total travesty.

Speed
02-19-2010, 03:29 PM
What share of revenues comes from tickets?

I had these figures a couple of seasons ago and I remember that ticket sales is rather small. An NBA frachise needs to look at TV revenue, league revenus sharing, and concessions just as much as ticket sales.

I don't have the answer. However, when I was listening to Bill Simmons podcast with Czar Stern. Stern said that they already have debt control measures in place and continue to look at ways to increase revenue, blah didy blah, blah, blah. It was interesting though, between all the fancy spin, I think he did mean that under the new CBA these are things that the owners will do everything possible to rectify. I believe this. It may come at the expense of the players, it may be because they are greedy *******s, but regardless it sounds like they will not continue to hemmorage money. What's this mean to us and the Pacers, I'd guess there is a good chance that this gets fixed and the Pacers/Simons/NBA owners won't be in such a pickle.

Couple of things/observations. The league is healthy overall, I believe, even though the Pacers are struggling. Maybe most of the teams are "losing" money, but I think it's how you count the numbers partially.

My point is this, if the league is healthy and a whole crop of very marketable, must see players are in the league then TV money should be there. That to me, is the golden goose. That to me, is what makes it hard to say the Pacers will leave.

It's nice to have players that you can go to a game and say, it's possible that I'll see Lebron do something tonight that is special. Reminds me of how I felt about Jordan.

If the Herb sales the team, all bets are off. If the players union really doesn't give up at ton and we have a lost season, then who knows. I don't think Herb is looking to sale. I don't think the players have the leadership to withstand a lockout.

Lastly, this city values it's sports teams and understands the civc impact, but more importantly the financial return. So I don't see a scenario like Seattle where there's a mexican stand off.

So, I don't think it's impossible to lose the team. I don't think it's likely, at least not due to losing games and losing money.

Now things could go down that road, but we aren't there yet, imho.

duke dynamite
02-19-2010, 03:34 PM
And remember, the city belongs to this man, not the taxpayers:

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/content/Image/09-12-2008/IRSAY-2.jpg

Gamble1
02-19-2010, 03:58 PM
And remember, the city belongs to this man, not the taxpayers:

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/content/Image/09-12-2008/IRSAY-2.jpg


When ever I see Irsay in some weird suit I always think of crappy movies I've seen. LIKE.... Dick Tracy


http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/covergallery/img/1990/jul61990_21_lg.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/_hi9W7dbsNYY/Rydw1pJ5cFI/AAAAAAAAAcs/42ujjAGKrO0/s320/Irsay--Elton+John.jpg

OR The Mask
http://img5.allocine.fr/acmedia/rsz/434/x/x/x/medias/nmedia/18/64/88/83/18816592.jpg
http://www.workhorseblues.com/wordpress/wp-content/plugins/image-shadow/cache/011b51854f83cd016c185d4e4297ec78.jpg

Will Galen
02-19-2010, 04:02 PM
When ever I see Irsay in some weird suit I always think of crappy movies I've seen. LIKE.... Dick Tracy
OR The Mask



Gross! If they are real the women needs surgery!

90'sNBARocked
02-19-2010, 04:05 PM
Management got rid of all the "trouble makers," so now the fans need to show a little thanks for the image clean up and be patient with the rebuilding. An interesting thing on the image side, the local radio guys were talking yesteday about how "white" the Pacers are. I'm not trying to instigate a race battle, but in some eyse we have gone from a team of "thugs" to the team from Hoosiers. Those guys are goof balls, but an interesting swing none the less.

It is a FACT that we havemore american born caucasion players on our roster than any other team in the NBA. I love how Bird claims that it is just "an accident" that this is the roster makeup ;)

Its funny because not only San Antonio but the announcers here in Phoenix have said the same thing

Good thing he signed McRobbberts and Diener as they have contributed soo much this year. Nice find Larry!

90'sNBARocked
02-19-2010, 04:06 PM
I know I'm not living in the state, but watching every game makes me feel like I'm a Hoosier. I'm hoping to become one when I'm done with school here in 2 years or so.

Just curious where your going to college?

I am an LIU-Brooklyn alum. :dance::dance:

Gamble1
02-19-2010, 04:10 PM
Gross! If they are real the women needs surgery!
Sorry about that guys.

Seriously, I copied a video box pic of the mask and that nasty women showed up. I hate google pic. :mad:

Hicks
02-19-2010, 05:20 PM
It is a FACT that we havemore american born caucasion players on our roster than any other team in the NBA. I love how Bird claims that it is just "an accident" that this is the roster makeup ;)

Its funny because not only San Antonio but the announcers here in Phoenix have said the same thing

Good thing he signed McRobbberts and Diener as they have contributed soo much this year. Nice find Larry!

Show me one quote where Larry talked about how many white players we have on the team. Please.

Will Galen
02-19-2010, 05:29 PM
I deleted the post above Hicks because I thought it useless advice to 90ROCKS post 84, not Gamble. Being directly after Gamble's post it looked like I was replying to his post.

90'sNBARocked
02-19-2010, 05:41 PM
Show me one quote where Larry talked about how many white players we have on the team. Please.

I dont have a link, and my comment was not a direct quote.

It is a fact that we do have more white players of american birth than any other team.

What I am refereing to was the interview with both Bird, Magic and Jim Grey in which he said he thought the NBA needed a white star so certain kids could relate (paraphraing here)

Then when interviewed after the Tyler draft pick, it was pointed out by the interviewer the fact above (about the Pacers rate of white players) and Bird's response was something to the effect of "I look for the best players, regardless of color" (paraphraing)

I can not speak to the reasoning of Bird's acquistions, all I can do is make an observation.

We have the most white players on are team either by" coincindence" or "design" but only he and God klnows the truth

If we had more foreign born players than any other team in the league then would we assume we like to go after foreign born players, or is that another "coincidence"

That is up to the man upstairs to decide

I will say this : from reading other NBA boards across the country, there are a lot of people who believe it has been Birds intention

these are just my thoughts and its ok to have a difference of opinion, if that is the case

:)

BillS
02-19-2010, 05:45 PM
Look I'm not trying to make you out to be some loon here. I get what you are saying and I am not saying you are totally wrong, I just think maybe you are using past experience to cloud present issues. Which in and of itself is not bad, but I think maybe you need a little more faith in Herb Simon.

Snipped most of this because I didn't want to clutter up with a full quote.

Main reply, though, is that I have a lot of faith in Herb, but he won't be with us forever. I believe I recall that Mel was actually the bigger fan but that his health is what has made Herb the face and the active intervention in recent years. That doesn't mean I think Herb is just going through the motions by any means, but suppose his health begins to go downhill and he can't be as active?

To be as blunt as possible, I don't want us to rest the future of the franchise on the deep pockets of one man. We've seen where that leads, and it isn't often good. It also seems like a lot to ask, that Herb continue to lose millions when people just aren't interested any more. Just because the losses have been going for a long time doesn't mean they are going to be shrugged off - in fact, the pre-Fieldhouse losses were the reason for the Fieldhouse. I don't know the figures for the 99-00 season, but I suspect they came closer to breaking even if you remove the costs of the Fieldhouse itself (which, remember, the Simons kicked in a pretty good chunk for) than they ever had.

Yes, I'm gun shy. When you've been burned you remember it. Maybe it's Post Nassi Stress Disorder. When people are bailing in droves after a shorter period of bad teams and management/coaching issues than places like Atlanta have dealt with, all while using Atlanta and Oklahoma City (which scenario is my worst nightmare) as examples of how to do it "right", I wonder if anyone has a real idea of the potential consequences.

Trophy
02-19-2010, 05:46 PM
Just curious where your going to college?

I am an LIU-Brooklyn alum. :dance::dance:

Nassau Community College for 2 years then probably starting school for another 2 years in Indy mainly for my career there.

Peck
02-19-2010, 06:07 PM
Snipped most of this because I didn't want to clutter up with a full quote.

Main reply, though, is that I have a lot of faith in Herb, but he won't be with us forever. I believe I recall that Mel was actually the bigger fan but that his health is what has made Herb the face and the active intervention in recent years. That doesn't mean I think Herb is just going through the motions by any means, but suppose his health begins to go downhill and he can't be as active?

To be as blunt as possible, I don't want us to rest the future of the franchise on the deep pockets of one man. We've seen where that leads, and it isn't often good. It also seems like a lot to ask, that Herb continue to lose millions when people just aren't interested any more. Just because the losses have been going for a long time doesn't mean they are going to be shrugged off - in fact, the pre-Fieldhouse losses were the reason for the Fieldhouse. I don't know the figures for the 99-00 season, but I suspect they came closer to breaking even if you remove the costs of the Fieldhouse itself (which, remember, the Simons kicked in a pretty good chunk for) than they ever had.

Yes, I'm gun shy. When you've been burned you remember it. Maybe it's Post Nassi Stress Disorder. When people are bailing in droves after a shorter period of bad teams and management/coaching issues than places like Atlanta have dealt with, all while using Atlanta and Oklahoma City (which scenario is my worst nightmare) as examples of how to do it "right", I wonder if anyone has a real idea of the potential consequences.

My memory is the opposite of this as I always thought Herb was the main person for the owners. However I won't dispute your memory as I will just agree that both of the Simons were equally important to the club.

That being said what the Pacers have is really no differant than almost any professional sports club ownership has when it is owned by either a family or one person.

I'm sure there is a will in place to take care of any line of succession and yes it may mean the children selling. Unless you are like Green Bay and the community owns the franchise then there is always the risk of moving.

Bball
02-19-2010, 06:34 PM
What has he ever done or said that leads you to believe he is not committed to keeping this franchise in the city?

A climate is being created with the option of leaving Indy a valid one (I'm not saying it's a done deal though... just a slippery slope).

Herb is getting older.

The team is on the decline.

The economy is on the decline (or stagnant).

Interest has to be at or near a sustained all time low.

The team reports many years of losing money and they want the city to renegotiate in a down economy with a taxpayer revolt bubbling under the surface.

The NBA has not been kind to the Pacers this past decade both with the penalties and blame assigned after the brawl as well as the CBA that allowed for high dollar long term contracts with little ability to escape from mistakes... and we certainly had our share of mistakes...
We've had our share of PR nightmares this past decade...

And we can't overlook the Colts right now soaking up all the sun.

---

I'm not seeing any signs anyone knows how to energize the fanbase. When the Simons bought the franchise that in and of itself helped to energize the fanbase. But now? No trades for the sake of trades to shake things up. No coaching change even though the fanbase is through with O'Brien (and the team appears to be as well). Crazy gimmick coaching instead of solid fundamental development. TV games are all buried on cable and not every game is even televised. No natl tv games (which is a symptom of everything else... fix the other stuff and this takes care of itself). Strange benchings (it seems we have an all or nothing proposition, rather than carving out minutes for players that likely are our future). Mixed messages from coaching and from management.

And the lack of interest in the team is back in a freefall.

It doesn't take a huge stretch of the imagination to picture Herb Simon and his accountants in a discussion that starts with:
"This team is bleeding money and costing you dearly".... and after Simon says his piece defending/explaining ownership of the team it ends with this from the detail people:
"But the city and people no longer care. What are you saving the franchise for if there's almost no local interest in it?"

---

I've always said the people of Indiana would accept a rebuild. The problem is we wasted several seasons that turned out to be lost seasons by NOT actually committing to a rebuild when we clearly should have been (at best we were going to be 8th seed playoff fodder in a weak conference where being the 8th seed was nothing to get excited about anyway... and getting close to the 8th seed was just going to hurt our lottery chances). We're finally calling it a rebuild NOW but I'm not sure we're still really rebuilding as much as calling it that because of what our record is.

Certainly the team couldn't expect sellouts during a rebuild.... but with a clear path and honest marketing... and player development.... this general apathy wouldn't be surrounding the team either.

...IMHO....

Will Galen
02-19-2010, 06:48 PM
but with a clear path and honest marketing... and player development.... this general apathy wouldn't be surrounding the team either.

...IMHO....

A clear path? Same old, same old, with you, just different words but the same meaning. They have clear direction, you just refuse to recognize it because you don't agree with it.

Honest marketing? That has to mean they have dishonest marketing now! Wow!

Bball
02-19-2010, 06:57 PM
A clear path? Same old, same old, with you, just different words but the same meaning. They have clear direction, you just refuse to recognize it because you don't agree with it.


And what path would that be Will? Go ahead and spell it out for those of us who have a hard time understanding what we perceive to be mixed messages about making the playoffs, player rotations, 3 year rebuilds, 6 year rebuilds, and whatever else seems to be the excuse of the day.

90'sNBARocked
02-19-2010, 06:59 PM
Nassau Community College for 2 years then probably starting school for another 2 years in Indy mainly for my career there.

Nice

I miss NYC :)

Bball
02-19-2010, 07:02 PM
Honest marketing? That has to mean they have dishonest marketing now! Wow!

I was going to ignore this but I can't.

Pacer PR has historically been smoke-filled and it's rarely changed now. Whether it's player injury reports or being upfront about the goals of the team... or changing them midstream and pretending a new goal has actually been the goal all along.

If you see something else then you need to clean the lenses on your blue and gold glasses.

Will Galen
02-19-2010, 07:21 PM
If we had more foreign born players than any other team in the league then would we assume we like to go after foreign born players, or is that another "coincidence"

That would be another coincidence, for the simple reason some team has to have the most foreign born players, but it doesn't mean they go after them because they are foreign born. Jeech!

People love to win so much that they ruin their heath to win.

It's my observation that Larry Bird, and all the other head honchos in the NBA will go after whoever they think will help them win, race has nothing to do with it.

You paraphrased Bird himself saying this, and his record of signings shows he's signed more black players than any other race.

My contention is you are perpetuating a myth.

indyblue47
02-19-2010, 07:50 PM
Well, I hardly ever post, I'm just a long time lurker, but I for one am very disappointed with the events of the last year. Isincerely wish we'd never heard the name JOB. I have watched TV ganes this year, but haven't had the time to make it downtown to watch a game live.

I gave my wife and daughter my tickets, but I will probably give the remainder to friends.

I will be back next year when "maybe" things are brighter. I've been a Pacer fan since 1979, but for some reason or another, this year has brought me back down to earth.

Best wishes to you and see ya next year!!

90'sNBARocked
02-19-2010, 07:52 PM
My contention is you are perpetuating a myth.[/QUOTE]

Well ,

If the "myth" is believed by many, then their is at least a chance that it has some validity. In fact for it to become a somewhat "national observation" then it it least has some legs


We could discuss for days, and the bottom line only Bird and God know the truth

Hopefully it is just a coincindence

I respect everyone's view on this and their respective choice to agree or disagree

:)

1984
02-19-2010, 08:42 PM
Someone close to me recently said, "The problem for the Pacers is this state is too happy watching basketball in Bloomington and West Lafeyette." A poster on this thread said that New Orleans is more likely to leave because it is the Saints town - what do you think Indianapolis will be for the next five to seven years? The reality is the NBA as a whole is unpopular (unless you are VERY elite) where will the Pacers move that is so much better? Regardless, I realize moving is a risk - it would be terrible, awful, heartbreaking and I'd stop watching the NBA altogether. Cheers?

Will Galen
02-19-2010, 08:44 PM
My contention is you are perpetuating a myth.

Well ,

If the "myth" is believed by many, then their is at least a chance that it has some validity. In fact for it to become a somewhat "national observation" then it it least has some legs

We could discuss for days, and the bottom line only Bird and God know the truth


I remember when the Myth came up a few years ago when someone pointed out how many white guys were on the Pacers. It was pointed out then that Bird hadn't obtained all those white guys, so the Myth should have died then. However, everytime Bird obtains a white guy the myth raises it's head again, even though there is no supporting evidence.

Obtaining white guys is not proof your a racest.

Changing gears here for a moment. Have you heard of the Larry and Harry show? That was what the original dream team called Bird and Patrick Ewing because they hung out together up to and including the Olympics.

And why was Dennis Johnson one of Larry's favorite people? Some people think that if Johnson hadn't died he would have been Larry's first choice to manage the Pacers.

Will Galen
02-20-2010, 04:11 AM
And what path would that be Will? Go ahead and spell it out for those of us who have a hard time understanding what we perceive to be mixed messages about making the playoffs, player rotations, 3 year rebuilds, 6 year rebuilds, and whatever else seems to be the excuse of the day.

You mean vision donít you? The clear path we are talking about is you changing your wording. You were complaining about the team not having a clear vision, now you have changed the wording to clear path, but itís the same complaint.

Whatís more, now you are wanting me to explain to you things that have nothing to do with having a vision, direction, or clear path. For instant you wanting me to explain what you perceive to be mixed messages about making the playoffs, and player rotations.

Tell me when Bird has sent mixed messages about making the playoffs. As far as I know Bird has always said he wanted to make them. So where is the mixed message?

As for player rotations, I don't like O'B' rotation's either, since he says one thing and does another. But unlike some of you I don't want O'B replaced this year since it appears we are in line for a good draft pick with O'B as coach. Probably one of the reasonís Bird hasnít replaced him. Personally I hope he's replaced after the season is over because I don't like his style, but since it doesn't really impact Bird's clear plan, I won't be upset about it.

Is that what you see as a mixed message? Bird saying he wants to make the playoffs but not replacing OíB? Thereís really no mixed message there. I wanted to make the playoffís too, but now I want as high as a draft pick as we can get. The difference is Bird canít admit that, I can.

As for a 3 year rebuild, versus a 6 year rebuild, come on, get real, there's no mixed message there. Management has never mentioned a 6 year rebuild, someone on here coined that team after the fact, but that doesn't make it true.

After the brawl management tried to stay competitive, now they are into rebuild mode. Is that so hard to understand? Again no mixed message, just people like yourself not willing to accept what the team says.


I was going to ignore this but I can't.

Pacer PR has historically been smoke-filled and it's rarely changed now. Whether it's player injury reports or being upfront about the goals of the team... or changing them midstream and pretending a new goal has actually been the goal all along.

If you see something else then you need to clean the lenses on your blue and gold glasses.

I see fine! I see the team is losing and management isnít doing what you would do to fix the problems, so you are all over them with both justified and unjustified complaints.

What you want is something that no management team is going to give you. If the team gave you the complete disclosure you want they would be hurting the team and maybe actually breaking the law.

For instant, hospitals and doctors canít give out health information about people without their consent, but you want the Pacers to give full disclosure when itís not in their interest to do so.

Read this.

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap/
-----------------------------------------------

Sources: Mavs Benched Howard With Hangover

Feb 19, 2010 1:32 PM EST

A night of drinking may have spelled the end for Josh Howard in Dallas.

According to multiple team sources, the Mavericks benched Howard for their Jan. 20 game against the Wizards because of a hangover after a night of partying.

The incident was added to a lengthy list of questionable off-court conduct toward the end of his tenure with Dallas.

The Mavericks, who were already shopping Howard and wanted to protect his trade value, announced that he had a stomach illness.

He was traded to the Wizards last week as part of a seven-player deal that brought Caron Butler and Brendan Haywood to Dallas.

Read more: http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap/#ixzz0g3GtUg3F

Bball
02-20-2010, 06:22 AM
You mean vision don’t you? The clear path we are talking about is you changing your wording. You were complaining about the team not having a clear vision, now you have changed the wording to clear path, but it’s the same complaint.

Yes it is... the same thing... I don't see your point. "Vision"... "path"... Same meaning in this context.



What’s more, now you are wanting me to explain to you things that have nothing to do with having a vision, direction, or clear path. For [instance] you wanting me to explain what you perceive to be mixed messages about making the playoffs, and player rotations.

Tell me when Bird has sent mixed messages about making the playoffs. As far as I know Bird has always said he wanted to make them. So where is the mixed message?

You're making my point. We're trying to make the playoffs... wait... we're rebuilding.... it's a 3 year plan....

Which is it?

You're saying now we're after a high draft pick. Are you reading tea leaves?

One minute you're saying we're after a high draft pick and the next you're defending Bird and saying he's always said we're looking to make the playoffs.

Isn't that mixed messages right there? Throw in his recent talk of a rebuild and of course it's mixed messages.

I don't even know how you're defending Bird against this NOT being mixed messages. :confused:



As for player rotations, I don't like O'B' rotation's either, since he says one thing and does another. But unlike some of you I don't want O'B replaced this year since it appears we are in line for a good draft pick with O'B as coach. Probably one of the reason’s Bird hasn’t replaced him. Personally I hope he's replaced after the season is over because I don't like his style, but since it doesn't really impact Bird's clear plan, I won't be upset about it.

It seems to me what you're saying is "The Pacers FO can't be this dumb to be doing what they say and appear to be doing so instead they must be doing something brilliant and setting us up for a great draft pick"

Your setting yourself up for a PFFL moment is what it sounds to me like you're doing. Convincing yourself that the reality in front of you isn't the reality in front of you. "I'm not going to fire Isiah". That was the quote that sent PFFL into the abyss.

And to not be upset if O'Brien is retained to IMO WASTE another year of player and team development and evaluation is unthinkable. We all should be livid.... but that is my opinion. But the problem is I don't think the fanbase can be worn down much further by O'Brien's bad basketball. It's going to lead to further apathy and it's going to be hard to get people back on board. I don't want to see the Pacers leave Indy and if this growing apathy isn't addressed, let alone this growing dislike for O'Brien's coaching, then we're going to see the climate become even more likely that the Pacers could move.

Just to be clear here... The biggest problem I have with Bird is his support of Jim O'Brien. From the (IMHO too) early contract extension that carries him thru NEXT season, to throwing the players under the bus to support O'Brien with a vote of confidence (more than once now...).

All Bird had to say was nothing and I'd be right there with you thinking he's just letting O'Brien coach out the string and let his bad system with a team that's tuned him out lead to a high draft pick.

Or he could make one of those "We'll get to the end of the season and evaluate everyone" type comments which we could all read into what we wanted. Instead he's given O'Brien a thumbs up.

That was IMHO stupid given the current dire straits of the franchise and the fanbase clamoring to see a different direction than what O'Brien represents.

It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense considering the current direction of the team. It doesn't make any sense with the draft picks and FA's we've acquired. It doesn't make any sense with the way O'Brien is coaching the team.




Is that what you see as a mixed message? Bird saying he wants to make the playoffs but not replacing O’B? There’s really no mixed message there. I wanted to make the playoff’s too, but now I want as high as a draft pick as we can get. The difference is Bird can’t admit that, I can.

As for a 3 year rebuild, versus a 6 year rebuild, come on, get real, there's no mixed message there. Management has never mentioned a 6 year rebuild, someone on here coined that team after the fact, but that doesn't make it true.

After the brawl management tried to stay competitive, now they are into rebuild mode. Is that so hard to understand? Again no mixed message, just people like yourself not willing to accept what the team says.

That's not what the team is saying. They seem to be saying whatever fits the situation. But whatever...

You're seeing what you want to see to keep yourself happy.

I'm seeing what I consider bad coaching and NOT a direction I want this team heading as far as style.... And I hear Bird saying O'Brien is here to stay. I see O'Brien with a contract for next year.

And this is not how you go about taking some short term lumps for long term gains. So I don't agree with you at all that there's any method in place.

If you can guarantee me O'Brien is gone before the end of May then I'm pretty happy (altho I will always believe made a bad PR error in supporting O'Brien with a vote of confidence more than once)... but if he's really seen by Bird as important to now and our immediate future... Heaven help us!




I see fine! I see the team is losing and management isn’t doing what you would do to fix the problems, so you are all over them with both justified and unjustified complaints.

What you want is something that no management team is going to give you. If the team gave you the complete disclosure you want they would be hurting the team and maybe actually breaking the law.

For [instance], hospitals and doctors can’t give out health information about people without their consent, but you want the Pacers to give full disclosure when it’s not in their interest to do so.


Now you're putting words into my mouth.

I don't need to see medical reports. We don't need press conferences with X-rays and the like. Just tell us when a player is not doing better or when it looks like a problem might require surgery and be an extended absence.

And be honest about what our immediate and long term goals are.


Read this.

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap/
-----------------------------------------------

Sources: Mavs Benched Howard With Hangover

Feb 19, 2010 1:32 PM EST

A night of drinking may have spelled the end for Josh Howard in Dallas.

According to multiple team sources, the Mavericks benched Howard for their Jan. 20 game against the Wizards because of a hangover after a night of partying.

The incident was added to a lengthy list of questionable off-court conduct toward the end of his tenure with Dallas.

The Mavericks, who were already shopping Howard and wanted to protect his trade value, announced that he had a stomach illness.

He was traded to the Wizards last week as part of a seven-player deal that brought Caron Butler and Brendan Haywood to Dallas.

Read more: http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap/#ixzz0g3GtUg3F

Your point? It sounds like a past Pacer player...
You think that NBA teams wouldn't have known about this had it not been for this report? I highly doubt it.

Will Galen
02-20-2010, 07:26 AM
Well I surely wasted my time with you! I can understand you not agreeing with me, but you don't even seem to comprehend what I said. It's undoubtedly my fault for not being clearer. Sorry!

Bball
02-20-2010, 09:03 AM
Well I surely wasted my time with you! I can understand you not agreeing with me, but you don't even seem to comprehend what I said. It's undoubtedly my fault for not being clearer. Sorry!

Apparently not... because I re-read it and still came up with the same basic thoughts. It wouldn't be the first time I missed a point....

Hicks
02-20-2010, 12:04 PM
The goal was to try to make the playoffs each year while racking up mid-1st talents in the draft, then making our moves (trades, signings, or both for good or hopefully better players) when our big contracts are expiring or finally do expire.

However, once it became clear that this season's playoff hunt was a joke, the high pick is the unofficial goal, while they'll keep selling "win win win!" to the public to keep the door open a crack for casual viewers who might still want to watch/go to games.

D-BONE
02-20-2010, 12:16 PM
I suppose they have no choice, but I feel the continued "win, win, win" to the public to be patronizing. We aren't stupid. I mean, yeah, you play each game to win, but the whole playoff thing that was still being drudged up prior to the ASB was just insulting.

I understand what is happening. I will continue to enthusiastically support despite the losing. I would be crushed if the team moved. My only other qualm in all this is that I think the 3 yr. plan is also false advertising. By the time we might be a legitimately successful team again, it will have been more like a 8 to 9 year plan.

EDIT: Oh yeah then there was the O'Brien extension. So actually this is the most massive complaint I would levy. What's the point?

Putnam
02-20-2010, 12:18 PM
We aren't stupid. .



:link:

BillS
02-20-2010, 01:40 PM
I suppose they have no choice, but I feel the continued "win, win, win" to the public to be patronizing. We aren't stupid. I mean, yeah, you play each game to win, but the whole playoff thing that was still being drudged up prior to the ASB was just insulting.

So, let me understand, you really think the Pacer marketing folks would get results (or keep their jobs) if they changed to "Come see the Pacers lose" or "Come see <opponent>" (which they tend to do anyway, with things like "Come see Kobe's only appearance in Indy this season")?

We've pretty much established that the number of people who will come to see a losing team is fixed, varying only by whether they are losing in some individually-defined "right way" (which tends to be "bench the players I don't like, play the ones I like"). If you don't push the idea that they are trying to win (again, in spite of all the talk about how they don't care - looks like they cared a lot last night even though they couldn't get it done), what do you sell?

And I'm not talking about the core fans, like the ones here. Marketing isn't for us, we don't pay much attention to it when making our decisions, so we are never going to be the target audience.

D-BONE
02-20-2010, 03:44 PM
So, let me understand, you really think the Pacer marketing folks would get results (or keep their jobs) if they changed to "Come see the Pacers lose" or "Come see <OPPONENT>" (which they tend to do anyway, with things like "Come see Kobe's only appearance in Indy this season")?

We've pretty much established that the number of people who will come to see a losing team is fixed, varying only by whether they are losing in some individually-defined "right way" (which tends to be "bench the players I don't like, play the ones I like"). If you don't push the idea that they are trying to win (again, in spite of all the talk about how they don't care - looks like they cared a lot last night even though they couldn't get it done), what do you sell?

And I'm not talking about the core fans, like the ones here. Marketing isn't for us, we don't pay much attention to it when making our decisions, so we are never going to be the target audience.

I'm saying that I suppose there is no other alternative, which means I agree with your point. Perhaps I did not state what I meant clearly enough. There's is no other choice than to promote that they are trying to win. Of course they're trying to win every night there's a game. I wouldn't want it any other way. I'm sorry but anyone with half a brain understands this on a basic level. They are not trying to lose. Promoting that the play or intend to win or whatever you call it is reasonable.

However, when it becomes yet another round of we're alive and playing for the playoffs propaganda-I'm thinking of press coverage slightly beyond the halfway point of the season-that to me is just too much hyperbole.

Okay, you may be mathematically alive, but with the track record you've established, you should be talking about just playing one good, solid game. Then follow it up with hopefully another good solid game. That's when it starts to grate on me.

Cue the Jim Mora footage. This is when the thing becomes unreasonable, if not downright patronizing. If others choose to tolerate contrary to reality marketing/promotion/press (or is it propaganda?) from the organization, more power to them. I still go to and watch games and pull for a win nightly. Just don't appreciate some of the over exaggeration.

P.S.- An honest question here. It seems you're talking of the infamous, so-called casual fan. My question is at this point how many casual fans are still even buying tickets on any regular basis?

Will Galen
02-20-2010, 04:09 PM
My only other qualm in all this is that I think the 3 yr. plan is also false advertising. By the time we might be a legitimately successful team again, it will have been more like a 8 to 9 year plan.

It won't be a 8-9 year plan, it will be a 8-9 year result.

Say you have a friend who plans to get married in two months but then something interferes with that plan and he winds of getting married two months later. It was never a three month plan, three months was just the result.

See Hicks post #107 in this thread.

Hicks
02-20-2010, 04:26 PM
The only thing I don't get in all this, because I think I do understand the bulk of "the plan", is O'Brien's rotation choices.

I don't believe O'Brien is trying to tank. I think he's still trying to win every game. I think he feels TJ and Murphy are part of what gives him his best chance each game.

Yet I know the franchise realizes the playoffs are a dream and that we're better off with a high pick.

So the confusion is why Bird is allowing Jim to keep pushing to win each night.

One would think, if the goal as of now is a high pick, that the logical thing to do would be to give all the young guys all the minutes they can handle, which will either mean more losses, or wins if they're coming along faster than expected (which isn't a bad thing, though it hurts your draft).

Yet here we are with TJ and Murphy getting burn at AJ, Josh, and Solomon's expense. Think what you will of any of their future projections, but I think we can all agree that the more time they get, the more clearly we can see who they are and what they might become, which in a season like this is probably the best course of action.

So if Bird knows we stink, and he knows we need the highest pick we can get, why is he allowing O'Brien to continue to try to win each game with the veteran players?

Will Galen
02-20-2010, 04:31 PM
However, when it becomes yet another round of we're alive and playing for the playoffs propaganda-I'm thinking of press coverage slightly beyond the halfway point of the season-that to me is just too much hyperbole.

Okay, you may be mathematically alive, but with the track record you've established, you should be talking about just playing one good, solid game. Then follow it up with hopefully another good solid game. That's when it starts to grate on me.

I agree. There was an article by Well's not to long ago where some of the players were saying they thought they still had a chance, and I thought the statements ridiculous. They would have had to play near .800 ball to make the playoffs if the teams ahead of them continued at the pace they were playing.

The thing is I've been on various teams and I never gave up until I was out of it. So I guess I was really the one being ridiculous expecting something different.

We should just blame the media for asking dumb questions I guess.

Will Galen
02-20-2010, 04:51 PM
The only thing I don't get in all this, because I think I do understand the bulk of "the plan", is O'Brien's rotation choices.

I don't believe O'Brien is trying to tank. I think he's still trying to win every game. I think he feels TJ and Murphy are part of what gives him his best chance each game.

Yet I know the franchise realizes the playoffs are a dream and that we're better off with a high pick.

So the confusion is why Bird is allowing Jim to keep pushing to win each night.

One would think, if the goal as of now is a high pick, that the logical thing to do would be to give all the young guys all the minutes they can handle, which will either mean more losses, or wins if they're coming along faster than expected (which isn't a bad thing, though it hurts your draft).

Yet here we are with TJ and Murphy getting burn at AJ, Josh, and Solomon's expense. Think what you will of any of their future projections, but I think we can all agree that the more time they get, the more clearly we can see who they are and what they might become, which in a season like this is probably the best course of action.

So if Bird knows we stink, and he knows we need the highest pick we can get, why is he allowing O'Brien to continue to try to win each game with the veteran players?

I just read Bird and Magic's book "When the game was ours." From reading that I don't think Bird is ever going to ask anyone to lose, or not do their best to win. Not even behind closed doors.

I think the best Bird can do is not replace O'B because he's delivering what Bird wants now, a high draft pick.

My question is about O'B. I don't recall him doing such a bad job last year. Sometimes I think he is trying to lose by playing the rotations he does.

Whatever, things will start looking up this summer, hopefully starting with a top 3 pick in the draft.

Our luck though we finish in 3rd spot and get moved back to 6th by the lottery. That would be a devastating blow for me!