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Speed
02-18-2010, 09:25 AM
Losing time. Now that it's very very unlikely anything happens in the next few hours before the trade deadline, a couple of things need to happen.

-AJ needs to play and alot.
-Danny needs to make sure he's 100 percent or not play.
-Tyler if at all possible needs to get back in some capacity.
-McBob needs to play meaningful minutes.
-Rush needs to attack the basket, continue to get big minutes.
-Roy needs to get the very max minutes he can handle.

We'll have the conversation about tanking 20 times in the next two months, but it's time to get guys the most experience possible.

Morway on Kravitz and Eddie yesterday said their goal isn't to get a bunch of role players and try to win 40-41 games, it's to build a championship contender with 7-8 young pieces around by the end of next year.

Well, that's nice to hear, but I don't think that has been proven (see D Jones/Earl Watson/Solo/Head) or even said til now.

So hopefully, with the passing of the trade deadline and no pay forward type moves, they mean it.

I feel like the Pacers have had to live through the mistakes of Bird "not getting it" and it's delayed this process for years now. His "learning the job" has cost the Pacers and his arrogance that made him great as a player, has been his downfall as a GM. It makes sense to be determined and stubborn as a player, it's cost at least two years to finally admitting they are rebuilding to finally have a rudder headed the right directiong.

Now it's time to stick to the plan that makes sense.

They've went from we don't need Milk Drinkers to we aren't rebuilding to finally we are going to rebuild.

These drastic philosophy changes have been drastically detrimental to the franchise.

Thank you, management, for finally trying to do this the right way, it's about freaking time.

Now, put your ego aside, go call Larry Brown and hope the Jordan doesn't get to buy the Bobcats.

That , and losing, would be a nice couple of steps.

sportfireman
02-18-2010, 09:33 AM
I hope nothing happens if it involves us giving up our young talent..........keep our expiring until we can trade them by themselves without losing young pieces...we really control the trade then did you see the talent the expiring were getting......? That can be us next season, firmly in the drivers seat.:) The expiring will probably be moved this summer.......so it'll be ok.


oh p.s. I had a dream last night I was talking to Larry I told him to fire Jim and let Lester finish the year out. He just looked at me then my alarm went off.:eek:

BillS
02-18-2010, 11:17 AM
Now, put your ego aside, go call Larry Brown and hope the Jordan doesn't get to buy the Bobcats.

That , and losing, would be a nice couple of steps.

So, since losing is a good option, how many people will go to the games and support the team while it is taking that option?

Speed
02-18-2010, 11:32 AM
So, since losing is a good option, how many people will go to the games and support the team while it is taking that option?

Less, no doubt, in the short term. You sacrifice attendance now for better attendance later, I think.

Plus, I'd rather see losing and development than just losing.

Put it this way, I'd rather watch AJ price lose than TJ Ford lose. Since it's working out that losing isn't really a variable.

McKeyFan
02-18-2010, 11:40 AM
The problem is that Bird is forcing us to watch bad basketball. Many of us are past our limit, but now we may have to endure another year or more.

I don't mind watching losses if they are playing traditional, Indiana-like, fundamental basketball. I wonder how much longer the larger fan base is willing to put up with it?

kellogg
02-18-2010, 11:42 AM
Less, no doubt, in the short term. You sacrifice attendance now for better attendance later, I think.

Plus, I'd rather see losing and development than just losing.

Put it this way, I'd rather watch AJ price lose than TJ Ford lose. Since it's working out that losing isn't really a variable.

In other words...losing with purpose. I can accept that and come out to watch the team. What I can't do is watch players that management has no intention of fitting into their long-term plans.

Speed
02-18-2010, 11:48 AM
The problem is that Bird is forcing us to watch bad basketball. Many of us are past our limit, but now we may have to endure another year or more.

I don't mind watching losses if they are playing traditional, Indiana-like, fundamental basketball. I wonder how much longer the larger fan base is willing to put up with it?

I understand. Larger fan base will come back when they start winning again, imo. The Pacers and basketball is in our blood though. I look at the Colts, they've made life long fans during this Manning era, but even though thats the case, many will go away when the lean years come back.

I just contend this, the movie was called "Hoosiers" for a reason. When the Pacers start to be competitive again, people in general will come back.

I'm talking general public here, not the die-hards.

The only thing is, it can't keep sucking to the point, they move. That would be tragic.

90'sNBARocked
02-18-2010, 01:08 PM
I feel like the Pacers have had to live through the mistakes of Bird "not getting it" and it's delayed this process for years now. His "learning the job" has cost the Pacers and his arrogance that made him great as a player, has been his downfall as a GM. It makes sense to be determined and stubborn as a player, it's cost at least two years to finally admitting they are rebuilding to finally have a rudder headed the right directiong.

Speed man I could not agree with you anymore than with the bolded statement. The reason why people like Jordan, Bird, Isiah make shttty GM's. They think that drive to anhilate the opponent works in trade negotiations

It doesnt,

Bird has now gotten a reputation as always trying to get over in a trade, I think this will only make future negotiations harder next year

I am very worried that if Bird is still the GM, he can take all that cap space, make bad decisions and fk us up for another 5 years

Speed
02-18-2010, 01:21 PM
.

Speed man I could not agree with you anymore than with the bolded statement. The reason why people like Jordan, Bird, Isiah make shttty GM's. They think that drive to anhilate the opponent works in trade negotiations

It doesnt,

Bird has now gotten a reputation as always trying to get over in a trade, I think this will only make future negotiations harder next year

I am very worried that if Bird is still the GM, he can take all that cap space, make bad decisions and fk us up for another 5 years

My biggest concern too. You get limited opportunities to get it right, once you commit to a set of players.

We heard rumblings before that other GMs didn't really like dealing with Bird, so then you have Morway, too. So, again it's two guys basically doing one job. Or maybe it's Morway being the buffer between Bird and the league, maybe it's not like that, but it seems it would really have to be a perfect relationship to work out.

Listen I'm not calling for Bird's head here. I just wonder if being an uber competitor crosses the line as a GM to where it hurts his ability to manage.

This guy manages the team and honestly being a great player and having the drive for greatness is awesome in sports, but that intensity can become stubborness to the point that you never get to your goal.

To me, I hope Simon is watching it all closely and not just enamored with it being Larry Legend. There is mounting evidence that we keep hearing whispers about that says maybe Larry isn't a very good GM. Not just decision making, but in managing people and a team.

CableKC
02-18-2010, 01:28 PM
This pretty much already happens under JO'B:

-Rush needs to continue to get big minutes.
-Roy needs to get the very max minutes he can handle.

But I don't really see this happening at all:


-AJ needs to play and alot.
-Danny needs to make sure he's 100 percent or not play.
-Tyler if at all possible needs to get back in some capacity.
-McBob needs to play meaningful minutes.
-Rush needs to attack the basket

The rest of the season is going to be very painful. I'll still catch Pacer games on TV ( only cuz I paid for NBA LP ) but I won't care to watch the entire game if we are losing all the time ( which happens more often then not ).

Infinite MAN_force
02-18-2010, 01:55 PM
Less, no doubt, in the short term. You sacrifice attendance now for better attendance later, I think.

Plus, I'd rather see losing and development than just losing.

Put it this way, I'd rather watch AJ price lose than TJ Ford lose. Since it's working out that losing isn't really a variable.

For the win!!!!!!!!!!

pacergod2
02-18-2010, 02:15 PM
My biggest concern too. You get limited opportunities to get it right, once you commit to a set of players.

We heard rumblings before that other GMs didn't really like dealing with Bird, so then you have Morway, too. So, again it's two guys basically doing one job. Or maybe it's Morway being the buffer between Bird and the league, maybe it's not like that, but it seems it would really have to be a perfect relationship to work out.

Listen I'm not calling for Bird's head here. I just wonder if being an uber competitor crosses the line as a GM to where it hurts his ability to manage.

This guy manages the team and honestly being a great player and having the drive for greatness is awesome in sports, but that intensity can become stubborness to the point that you never get to your goal.

To me, I hope Simon is watching it all closely and not just enamored with it being Larry Legend. There is mounting evidence that we keep hearing whispers about that says maybe Larry isn't a very good GM. Not just decision making, but in managing people and a team.


I think a lot of this is a lack of patience. Just like Larry said in the media the other day. I don't think he is doing a bad job as some here think. They are the same people that are impatient with their posts in general, IMO. Others who have not liked the Bird as GM move since the start are not going to change their stance and I appreciate that, but don't get impatient with Bird because he has not had much to work with. He did move JO I remind you.

Morway is the legal/financial arm and Bird is the basketball talent side. I don't think he is being stubborn other than trying to get talent out of a deal. I think his patience is a virtue. The one thing that might get taken out of context by other GM's is that he is up front, while most are not. They say what they want and then eventually come off their stance. Bird has not had the say in most of the deals we have been involved in.

If Bird does not want just an expiring for Murphy, then I understand his position. Morway is probably saying we could really use the salary reduction for next year, but Bird says that he doesn't want to trade a much better Troy Murphy for Kenny Thomas straight up, as it seems that is what most of the deals we were actually offered were. Z, KThomas, and Ridnour/Elson/Warrick/Alexander (they were even trying to include Bell and Gadzuric so it wasn't even a straight salary dump). These were not deals where other GM's were willing to give up Hickson, Jason Thompson, or Ilyosova. These are deals that are saying "we will take some of the money off your hands if you give us the significantly more talented player". And I don't think that Troy has a ton of value at that, but we have not been offered a basketball player in any of these deals. I like Ridnour the best out of everything purportedly in these deals, but I think its a fantasy land that people think that these young promising players were EVER on the table for us.

If you think Bird is stubborn, I don't blame you. But Bird has to not roll over and take whatever is offered. If you think that Morway should be calling some teams, because of the (lack of) relationship Bird has with some GM's, I can understand that too. But don't judge Bird based on his lack of doing anything. Most times, patience is a virtue.

Unclebuck
02-18-2010, 03:29 PM
I don't think the game last night against the Spurs was bad basketball maybe parts of it was, but the Spurs took more 3's than the pacers did

ToasterBusVIP
02-18-2010, 04:52 PM
So, since losing is a good option, how many people will go to the games and support the team while it is taking that option?

I for one would go to games to see our young guys, just as much as I'd go to watch our "best" players start and play good competitive ball, as they did last night. Seeing AJ, Rush, Granger, and Hansbrough out there scrapping and showing what they've got is now my biggest interest in this team.

Problem is I live 500 miles away, so that's not gonna happen. But I bought a half season subscription to NBALP for just the reason I stated.

ToasterBusVIP
02-18-2010, 04:59 PM
.

Speed man I could not agree with you anymore than with the bolded statement. The reason why people like Jordan, Bird, Isiah make shttty GM's. They think that drive to anhilate the opponent works in trade negotiations

It doesnt,

Bird has now gotten a reputation as always trying to get over in a trade, I think this will only make future negotiations harder next year

I am very worried that if Bird is still the GM, he can take all that cap space, make bad decisions and fk us up for another 5 years

Hm. Maybe the difference between those guys is that some of them have too much pride to admit when they're making a bad decision and step back from it (Isiah). That Charlotte was offering us Augustin and Henderson for TJ and Rush, that in my mind puts up a red flag that says "too good to be true". And as far as Rush goes, you're better off with your own enigma than someone else's...